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===[[Panic of 1907]]===
{{redirect|Imbruglia|the Australian indie rock singer-songwriter, younger sister of Natalie|Laura Imbruglia}}


:<small>''Nominator(s): [[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]])''</small>
{{Infobox musical artist 2
<noinclude>{{Wikipedia:Featured article tools|1=Panic_of_1907}}</noinclude>
|Name = Natalie Imbruglia
<!-- Please don't edit anything above here; just include your reasons for nominating below. -->
|Img = Natalie-Imbruglia-Earth-Hour.jpg
|Img_capt = Natalie Imbruglia [[Earth Hour]] 2008
|Background = solo_singer
|Birth_name = Natalie Jane Imbruglia
|Fiance = Richard Wyatt
|Born = {{birth date and age|1975|02|4}}
|Origin = [[Central Coast (New South Wales)|Central Coast]], [[New South Wales]], [[Australia]]
|Instruments = [[Singing]]
|Genre = [[Pop music|Pop]], [[Rock music|rock]]
|Years_active = 1994 – present (actress)<br /> 1997 – present (singer)
|Label = [[Sony BMG]]/[[RCA Records|RCA]] <small>(1997-2004)</small>, [[RCA Records|RCA]]/[[Sony BMG Music Entertainment#List of Sony BMG labels|Brightside Recordings]]<small>(2005-present)</small>
|Notable_albums = [[Left Of The Middle]]
|Notable_songs = [[Torn]], [[Wrong Impression]], [[Shiver]]
|URL = [http://www.natalieimbruglia.com NatalieImbruglia.com]
}}
'''Natalie Jane Imbruglia''' ({{pronEng|ɪmˈbruːliə}}) (born [[February 4]], [[1975]]) is an [[Australia]]n [[singer-songwriter]], [[model (person)|model]] and [[actress]].


The most interesting, in my opinion, of the panics of the National Banking Era. I believe this meets all the criteria and is particularly timely as well. I look forward to addressing any issues that reviewers feel are outstanding. Special thanks to GA reviewer [[User:Mattisse]] who also helped fixing it up to GA status; to [[User:Protonk]] and [[User:Ceoil]] for extensive and invaluable polishing toward that end; and to [[User:Robertknyc]] for checking over so many of the details and helping with the stock data. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 04:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
In the early 1990s, Imbruglia was known to audiences as [[Beth Willis|Beth Brennan Willis]] in the popular Australian [[Soap opera|soap]] ''[[Neighbours]]''. Two years after leaving the program, Natalie launched a singing career with the international hit, "[[Torn (Ednaswap song)|Torn]]". The subsequent debut album ''[[Left of the Middle]]'' (1997) sold 7 million copies worldwide. While following releases, ''[[White Lilies Island]]'' (2001) and ''[[Counting Down the Days]]'' (2005), have been unable to match the commercial success of her debut, the latter became her first UK #1, and all are critically acclaimed. To date she has sold more than 10 million records worldwide.


*'''Comment''' From the Aftermath section: "''Immigration dropped to 750,000 people in 1909 from 1.2 million people two years earlier.''" Do Bruner and Carr (don't have the book handy) note this as directly connected to the panic? Also, other elements of the aftermath section seem better explained by the prolonged contraction from Jan-Sep rather than the acute financial panic that is the subject of the article. I'm loathe to change that section without access to the references myself, hence the question. :) [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 06:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
==Biography==
*: I'll ponder this. Not sure how one would isolate the effects of the contraction, the stock crash and the bank panic. They are all so interrelated. Perhaps the aftermath section should just make that clearer? --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 13:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Second of the four daughters to a [[Sicily|Sicilian]] ([[Messina|Messinese]]) father and an [[Australia]]n mother, Imbruglia grew up on the [[Central Coast (New South Wales)|Central Coast]], north of [[Sydney]], south of Newcastle. Imbruglia studied [[ballet]], [[tap]], and [[Scottish highland dancing|highland dancing]] as a child, hoping to make a career out of it. She also sang in shopping malls and in school performances. At 14 her dance instructor encouraged her to sing with an all girl group but once at the audition, the managers saw that the strikingly pretty youngster with a beautiful voice could make it on her own. They wanted to sign her as a solo act but she refused. "They were like 'we're going to make you a star...' Even at that age you couldn't talk to me like that. I was like 'see you later..'"
*::I think its fine; its clearly just context. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 23:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
*::: I've reworded this a bit. To address the specific question, they note all these points in a couple of paragraphs on the economic fall out in this period of American history. Calomiris finds that panics in this period invariably accompany stock crashes. I'd be reluctant, however, to go too deeply into theories about panics in this article. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 01:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::: Thanks. I gathered that it was meant to be context but figured the wording could have been clearer. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 03:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
'''Comments''' - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Might note that with courtesy links to the JSTOR articles a subscription is required. (Doesn't invalidate the use of the articles as sources, just makes it clear to folks that the links are courtesy links and not everyone will be able to access them). [[User:Ealdgyth|Ealdgyth]] - [[User talk:Ealdgyth|Talk]] 13:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
: Could you please show me which JSTOR articles we've not done this for? I tried to get them all. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 13:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Click on the "check external links" thingie (don't you love my technical vocabulary?) in the tools box. It'll show you all the links colored in a golden yellow that require some sort of subscription/registration. Very handy little tool, don't forget to thank the coder for it! [[User:Ealdgyth|Ealdgyth]] - [[User talk:Ealdgyth|Talk]] 04:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::: I'm sorry Ealdgyth, I don't understand what you're asking. I know which links are JSTOR links and have already tried to signify this. Could you please fix this for me so I can see what you're talking about? I sincerely thought I'd done this correctly. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|t]]) 04:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::: YOu got it, you just did it differently than I've ever seen it done ... and if I hadn't had such a sinus headache yesterday, I might have noticed it sooner. You're good! [[User:Ealdgyth|Ealdgyth]] - [[User talk:Ealdgyth|Talk]] 13:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


*'''Support''', as a copy editor, though I hand no hand or part in the content. The article was fully written before i got involved, and I only took interest because it was full of insight and provided me with a clear look into the turmoil of the period. I think the structure is particularly well drafted; its pacy and engaging, the research is above reproach and the sources cleverly used to weaved together a complicated story into an accesable timeline. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 01:08, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
===Early career===
*: Thank you, dear Brit. I was very much aiming for a nicely paced and engaging article (too bad we almost never talk about ''pace'' at FAC), and I'm glad you noticed. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]]c ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 01:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Imbruglia auditioned for Australian TV commercials and appeared in spots for [[Coca-Cola|Coke]] and the popular Australian snack [[Twisties]]. By age 16, she left high school to start a career in acting. She soon obtained the chance to play a regular role on the Australian soap opera, ''[[Neighbours]]'' at the age of 16 1/2. ''Neighbours'' has also launched the careers of many other successful Australian female artists such as [[Kylie Minogue]], [[Holly Valance]], [[Delta Goodrem]] and [[Natalie Bassingthwaighte]].
*::NB He's not British, but hales from a nearby island. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 11:12, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::Good man Tony. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 13:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::: Ah... not very good with geography. I looked this up and learned that Ireland is an independent nation of some sort (who knew?) The difference between Scottish and Irish is still very fuzzy for me. Which ones have all the freckles and potatoes? --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 14:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
:We Irish have the potatoes, them scots (also celts) are blessed with red hair and freckles, god love em. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 14:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*:Pace should of course be factor and [[Great Fire of London]] sets the benchmark. [[El Greco|Yannis]] is another who is gifted in this area. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 10:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


*::'''Support''' Timely.
By the end of her second year, she left the show to move to [[London]], immersing herself in the city's club scene. Refused a work permit, within a year she became [[bankrupt]]. This forced her to go back to her passion of singing, something which she had been putting off because she thought everyone would laugh at her because she'd been on ''Neighbours''. Her effort paid off with a helping hand Roselyn Della Sabina got her signed to [[BMG]] Publishing. Together Roselyn and Natalie came up with a demo of the song "[[Torn (Natalie Imbruglia song)|Torn]]" which greatly impressed [[RCA Records]] and got her a record contract.
* Omg I totally did not look this up, but Jackson got rid of the Second Bank in...1832? Or 1836? Am I close? At any rate, a year should be indicated. How long did the US go without a central bank, and how common were runs up to this point?
* Different tenses? ''There is no exact measure of when a panic occurred''
* ''The committee issues a scathing report'' issued?
* I thought it was an interesting read. I did have to check some blue links, not being intimately familiar with some finance terms. I found the article both readable and technical. Short selling, panics, and runs get into some more abstract areas of economics. There were a few places that I thought could benefit by just a bit more help for the average reader unfamiliar with some of these concepts. Otherwise, I enjoyed the article. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3|talk]]) 12:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
*: Hi Moni! Thanks for the nice words. So, Congress passed, but Jackson vetoed, an extension in 1832, he stopped depositing government money there in 1833, its federal charter expired in 1836 and it actually went out of business in 1841. I went with the 1836 date. Fixed the next two as well. As for your final point... (I was thinking of doing [[Bear Stearns]] at some point, but worry about going into collateralized debt obligations, mark-to-market accounting principles and credit default swaps.) If you can point out where specifically the text would benefit from a bit of further explication would help, I can certainly add context to those spots. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 01:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


'''Comments'''
==Music==
*Unsure of the factual, but would this: "The crisis occurred after an attempt by Otto Heinze to corner the market in United Copper failed in October, 1906." be be better as this? "The crisis occurred after the failed attempt by Otto Heinze in October 1906 to corner the market in United Copper." No link for Heinze, so you might consider a phrase telling us that he was ... an industrialist? Was United Copper ", a major US mining company"? Pack too much into the sentence and it becomes unwieldy, but these things are part of the big picture we need to know at the start.
Natalie Imbruglia is one of the most successful Australian-born female singers.
*" With the collapse of New York's third largest trust company"—was that Copper of Knickerbocker? Clearly the latter when you think about it, but you need to explain things more carefully in the lead for non-experts.
She has received an [[MTV Awards|MTV Award]] for Best New Artist in 1998, and 3 constitutive Grammy Award nominations in 1999. She has sold over 9 million albums worldwide. She was ranked #11 on Rock on the Net's list of single artists of the year in 1998, and #76 in 2001.
*"regional banks" twice in one sentence. Can this be avoided?
Natalie Imbruglia has tied up her 4-album record deal with BMG after the delivery of her compilation album [[Glorious: The Singles 1997-2007]].
*"further" could probably be dropped. Is "pulled" ambiguous/loose? "withdrew"? And by "New York", you mean the state, the city, the stock exchange?
*A lot of folks, particularly non-Americans (but many Americans, too) won't quite know what "anti-trust" means, even though it's linked. I think we're supposed not to rely on links to explain such terms. Again, it might require more wording to get around this, and a consequent split into two sentences.
::[[Antitrust law]] redirects to [[Competition law]]. I think Americans would have no trouble with "antitrust", but perhaps non-Americans are not familiar with laws relating to business competition, and there should be explanations of such concepts for non-American folk. (It only relates peripherally to the article; the various [[financier]]s had to go to President Roosevelt to get permission to act in unison, because of the tough antitrust/competition laws which forbade business monopolies or collusion.) Would it be clearer just to remove the concept from the lead, so as not to confuse non-American folk? It could be expanded in the article at the relevant point when the financiers actually go to President Roosevelt for permission. &mdash;[[User:Mattisse|<font color="navy">'''Mattisse'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 08:31, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Would "[[Antitrust|antitrust]] (competition) law" be OK? [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 11:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*The last clause in the lead is the crux of the whole article, yes? Good.
I haven't read further and will return, but there's enough here to chew off for the moment. I have hopes for this one, and if the nominator didn't have a good track record in fixing, I'd recommend withdrawal and resubmission in a few weeks. See what you can do. Great topic if the troops can understand it. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 04:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


*PS "backstop" ... "stopped". Radar beam out for those repetitions. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 04:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
===''Torn''===
Her first internationally released single, (1997), was a cover of an [[Ednaswap]] song. Instantly the single became one of the biggest hits of the 90s, reaching number two in the [[UK Singles Chart]] and number one on airplay around the world and was number one on the Billboard Airplay chart for 14 weeks. The single went on to sell over a million copies in the [[United Kingdom]] alone.


<s>'''Comments on images''' - There is some work to be done on the images. :)</s>
It was also released as a radio single in the U.S., but not in buyable CD-format. The single quickly hit #1 on the Billboard's Hot 100 Airplay chart, where it stayed for 14 weeks. At the time, singles not released commercially were unable to chart to the overall Hot 100 chart (combined sales and airplay), so "Torn" made no appearance on it for a while. By the time the policy was changed in late 1998 to allow airplay-only songs, "Torn" was already heading down the charts, so its peak on the Hot 100 only ended up being at #42. The single also topped the Top 40 Mainstream/CHR Pop and Adult Top 40 charts.
*<s>[[:Image:Knickerbocker trust company.jpg]] - The source book needs a name, not just "monograph".</s>


*<s>[[:Image:JP Morgan.jpg]] - This image needs an original source that demonstrates the photo is from 1903, etc.</s>
In October 1997, it broke the all-time airplay record in the U.K. for being the most played (more than 2000 plays) for six consecutive weeks. It was finally No. 1 for 14 weeks in the U.K. radio chart, a record that is being tied by only [[Simply Red]]'s Fairground. It was the No. 1 radio single in the U.S. from March to July 1998. It was knocked down to No. 2 by [[The Goo Goo Dolls]]' [[Iris (song)|Iris]].


*<s>[[:Image:Dow 1904 to 1909.png]] - The description of this graph needs to include what sources you used for the information.</s>
[[Rick Dees]], in his Top 40 Chart show also declared "Torn" as the 'number one radio single of 1990s' in their 2000 Millennium Countdown show, broadcasted from KIIS-FM on New Year's Eve.


*<s>[[:Image:Morgan cartoon-1.png]] - Link to source does not work</s>
Imbruglia made a surprise appearance alongside [[David Armand]] midway through a performance of his supposed 'interpretative dance' routine to sing her hit song ''Torn'' at Amnesty International's [[The Secret Policeman's Ball (2006)]].


*<s>[[:Image:Fed Reserve.JPG]] - This image lacks a source.</s>
===''Left of the Middle''===
Her debut album ''[[Left of the Middle]]'' was released on 8th December 1997. It sold 350,000 copies in the UK 3 weeks after its initial release and was certified platinum. It sold another 6.5 million copies in 1998. It broke the record of the highest selling debut album by a pop/rock/alternative female artist, more than Alanis Morissette, Fiona Apple, and Meredith Brooks combined in its first week according to Billboard. The second single released in the UK, after "Torn" was "[[Big Mistake]]." Natalie worked with Roselyn Della Sabina the Australian Italian collaboration paid off. "Big Mistake" debuted at number-two. "[[Wishing I Was There]]" followed and it was less successful than her first two singles, reaching number 19. However, "[[Wishing I Was There]]" was a smash hit on the UK radio, peaked at No. 2 in summer 1998, and was a summer smash hit in the USA radio, peaked at No. 14 on the Top 40 Show. The final single from ''Left of the Middle'' was "[[Smoke (song)|Smoke]]", and the reception was much more divided compared to the other singles. It was a hit in the UK and made the top 5, while in Australia it just missed the top 40. Eventually, the album became a million-seller after charting well in many countries and entering the Top 10 in the US and UK. In 1999, she recorded a cover of the song [[Never Tear Us Apart]] by [[INXS]] with [[Tom Jones (singer)|Tom Jones]] which appeared on his album [[Reload (Tom Jones album)|''Reload'']].


*<s>[[:Image:James J. Stillman.jpg]] - This image lacks a description, a source, an author, and a date.</s>
''[[Left of the Middle]]'' was certified platinum by [[RIAA]] within 4 weeks of release (3rd April 1998) and was certified 2X platinum in November 1998.


I'm reviewing the rest of the article now - I am quite excited to read it! [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 12:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
===''White Lilies Island''===
Imbruglia's next album, ''[[White Lilies Island]]'', arrived in 2001. Named after an island where her [[England|English]] and main home is situated, the writing process took almost three years to complete in which she co-wrote every track. The album's first single, "[[That Day]]," was very different stylistically from her previous singles, but it did not reach the [[UK]] Top 10. In the USA, "[[Wrong Impression]]" was released as the first single and it enjoyed small success, charting in the [[Hot 100 Singles]] chart and the [[Adult Contemporary]] chart. The track was also released in the [[UK]] as a second single, and it did slightly better than ''That Day''. "[[Beauty On The Fire]]", the final single, experienced minimal success and barely entered charts worldwide, and didn't make the top50 in Australia. The album still managed to sell over 2 millions copies but failed to repeat the widespread success of ''[[Left of the Middle]]''.


: Fixed all except for [[:Image:Fed Reserve.JPG]] which wasn't my image, and I couldn't determine the source so I removed. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 14:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
===''Counting Down the Days''===
Imbruglia's third album was ready in November 2003. Imbruglia's record label refused to release it due to it being too rock and not radio-friendly. She was later given songs to record with Scandinavian pop producers (Sweden producers, [[Bloodshy & Avant]]), which she refused to do. Imbruglia and her record label parted ways at the beginning of 2004. Four months later she signed with a new label Brightside Recordings, which was formed by a former Innocent Records boss Hugh Goldsmith.


'''Oppose for now''' This is a clearly-written and fascinating article - we have too few economics articles and this is certainly a timely one, so thank you! I have a few concerns regarding images (outlined above) and sources, but I have no doubt these can be cleared up quickly. I found the article's prose to improve dramatically after the lead, for some reason, and then to decline a little again in the "Aftermath" section. I have isolated some sentences from the lead that need improvement:
Imbruglia started working on an album again. In April 2005, Imbruglia released her third studio album ''[[Counting Down the Days]]'' in the UK with [[Shiver (Natalie Imbruglia)|"Shiver"]] as its first single. "Shiver" was a huge success, and it became her longest running single in the UK since "Torn." It topped UK airplay charts for several weeks, reaching eighth place in the UK charts. It also became the most played song of 2005. The song's acclaim and reception paid off and ''Counting Down The Days'' became her first album to reach the top spot on the album charts.
*: Yeah, I hate [[WP:LEAD]]. If I could it'd be the first (but nowhere near the last) part of MOS I'd nuke. I'll work on these prose fixes. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 14:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*::I can't write a lead to save my life. [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 14:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*<s>''This quickly spread across the nation, leading to the closures of both state and local banks and businesses.'' - I'm not sure it is entirely clear what the "this" refers back to.</s>
*:Clarified. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 14:31, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*''The crisis occurred after an attempt by businessman Otto Heinze to corner the market in stock of the United Copper Company failed in October 1906.'' - This sentence doesn't read right to me.
*:Clarified. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup>
*::I've worked on it a bit - see if it is still correct. [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 14:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*::::Its good. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 14:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*::Presumably he had borrowed heavily in his bid and his failure to repay his debts hurt a number of institutions. Jay, can you calrify. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 14:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*''With the collapse of the Knickerbocker, fear spread throughout the city's trusts as regional banks withdrew deposits from New York City banks, and nationwide as people withdrew their deposits from regional banks.'' - This sentence should have parallel structure - as it stands fear spreads through trusts and nationwide. Ideally, the sentence should compare two places or two kinds of banks, if you see what I mean.
*:Reworded. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 14:28, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*::Parallel structure is still a problem - "city's trusts" is not parallel to "nationwide". [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 14:51, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::I have no idea at all what Parallel structure means! Can youexplain so I can fix. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 14:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*::::[[Parallel structure]] (incomplete article) means that sentences are supposed to be structured so that nouns and verbs are logically and grammatically organized. In this sentence, two different kinds of nouns are being compared: a kind of banking institution is being compared to a location ("trusts" are being compared to a "nationwide") - the logic of the sentence breaks down. [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 15:01, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*''The panic would have deepened if not for the intervention of J.P. Morgan, who convinced other New York bankers to provide a backstop'' - Is "backstop" a technical term here?
*:Its meaning seems obvious to me. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 14:28, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*::To me, it sounds colloquial, but I thought perhaps it was a technical term. If it is a technical term, it should stay, if it is not, it should be replaced by something less slangy. [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 14:52, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::Fair enough; Tony also objected to this. Done. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 15:02, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::: It's also a technical term[http://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/backstop.asp]. I thought it would be clear to lay readers, and also signal to an economist that it's technically correct. I think Tony was just objecting to the use of ''stopped'' later in the same sentence. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 15:14, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*''Although Morgan lost $21 million in the panic, and the significance of the role he played in staving off worse disaster is undisputed, he became the focus of intense scrutiny and criticism.'' - This is cited to an opinion piece in the ''Washington Post'' - opinion pieces are not fact-checked like news stories. Could we find a reliable source for this claim?
*: Um... Awadewit, the national american newspapers like the Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, ''rigorously'' check the ''facts'' in their opinion pieces. Did you think you could write an opinion piece in ''The Washington Post'' and say "J. P. Morgan had a trillion dollars and two heads" and the editors would say, "eh, seems unlikely, but it's an opinion!" :) Anyways, this is part of the Washington Post Outlook section which is lumped together on their web site with opinions, but it's not actually the op-ed page. This is written by Jean Strouse, a J.P. Morgan scholar, the author of "Morgan, American Financier" and director of the Dorothy and Lewis B. Cullman Center for Scholars and Writers at the New York Public Library. This source is okay. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 14:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*::Opinion pieces are not fact-checked like news stories. They are the production of the authors who submit them and printed as such - that is one reason why newspapers print disclaimers regarding them. I saw that this piece was written by someone who has written on J.P. Morgan, but my concern is the oversight of the article. I see nothing to indicate that this is not an opinion piece published for the ''Post''. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/24/AR2007082401969_pf.html This] description of the "Outlook" section explains that it is a hybrid, but that it is most definitely an "opinion" section. The editors apparently look for "provocative" pieces. None of this is very reassuring to me. So many of the other sources in this article are excellent academic productions which have been peer-reviewed. If the statement supported by this ''Post'' article is in none of those academic, peer-reviewed sources, I would be concerned. [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 14:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*::: "Outlook, the Sunday opinion section, is a hybrid. The front of the section is put out ''by the news staff''." This is page B1 ''ie'' the front of the section. There's no requirement that I remove a J.P. Morgan scholar writing about Morgan in the Outlook section of the Washington Post. That passes RS in spades. It's also helpful for people who don't have easy access to a library. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 14:36, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*:::: I would resist anything that is an opinion piece, frankly. Scholars can say in opinion pieces what they ''cannot'' say in peer-reviewed books. That is why I am asking for a peer-reviewed source to back up this claim. We are not talking about a claim regarding a current event here. [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 14:40, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*::::: Do you consider citing a single sentence in the article to a JP Morgan scholar writing about JP Morgan in a section produced by the news staff of the Washington Post, in the Sunday Outlook section, to be a dealbreaker in terms of satisfying [[WP:WIAFA]]? I do not have access to the claim elsewhere. If you believe this is an actionable objection grounded in the criteria, I will remove. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 15:14, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


*Fettig, David (ed) (1989), "F. Augustus Heinze and the Panic of 1907", The Region (Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis), <http://minneapolisfed.org/pubs/region/89-08/REG898C.cfm> . Retrieved on September 14, 2008 - I am not sure that this source is cited correctly. At the bottom of the webpage, it sort of looks like this is an excerpt from another book. "Copper King at War," published in 1968 by the University of Montana Press and currently out of print, is based on McNelis' master's thesis completed in 1947. Among her many sources for her thesis was a 72-page collection of correspondence she had with Otto Heinze, F. Augustus' brother, between 1943 and 1947. That collection remains in the author's possession." - This suggests to me that the piece is taken from the book - what do you think?
It was decided that 'Sanctuary' would be second single from the album. The promo singles were sent to radio stations. The decision was later changed to the title track [[Counting Down the Days (song)|"Counting Down the Days"]], with radio stations being asked to play the album version, because the radio mix was not finished. The single was released on July 25th but it did not have as much success in the singles chart as "Shiver." Though it managed to reignite interest in its parent album, and also received a lot of airplay in the UK. Due to the single, the album managed to re-enter the top 40 in the official UK charts.
*: I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Fettig is clearly ''reviewing'' McNelis' book. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 14:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*::Oh, sorry - I got turned around. What I meant to ask was why we are citing the book review rather than the book itself for the claim that "Some analysts believed that the panic had been engineered, either to punish Heinze or as part of an elaborate plot for U.S. Steel to acquire TC&I, or to damage confidence in trust companies so that banks would benefit". [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 14:37, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
*::: The answer is that I do not have access to this out-of-print 1968 biography of a copper magnate. I will be happy to add additional sources about the general conspiracy theory type claims, however. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] ([[User talk:JayHenry|talk]]) 15:14, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


I have no doubt that the editors can meet my concerns during this FAC and that I will be able to support soon. [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 13:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Imbruglia had a choice to either release 'Perfectly' as her third single, or use the GBP200,000 funding from BMG to do a tour. She decided to do a small European tour (as she had not done a proper tour since [[Left of the Middle]]) in late October and November to promote the album. Though the album never entered UK Top 40 again, she proved once again that she had maintained a dedicated fan base; several concerts, especially those in London sold out.

The album is the 100th best-selling album in 2005, selling 204,877 copies in the UK alone.<ref>[http://www.musicweek.com/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=1031537 This week's sales analysis]</ref>

===''Glorious: The Singles 1997 – 2007''===
Imbruglia started working on her 4th album in late 2005. In mid 2007 the plans changed and Natalie's record company decided to release the single collection instead. The compilation is a celebration of Imbruglia's 10 years in the music industry. The only single lifted form the album - [[Glorious]] premiered in [[BBC Radio2]] on Chris Moyle's show. The promotion included a special acoustic gig. It can be found on [[iTunes]]. The Singles Collection debuted at #5 in the UK Music charts, and boasted 5 new songs, including the single "Glorious", as well as a bonus DVD featuring all Imbruglia's Music Videos. The album has sold around half a million copies worldwide to date.

===''To Be Announced (2009)''===
Natalie's 4th studio album is in the final stages of mixing and will be ready to be released in the UK by March '09. She is currently in the studio mixing her fourth album with [[Danton Supple]]. It was produced by acclaimed producer [[Ben Hillier]]. Natalie Imbruglia has promised that her new record will be "light-hearted" and "fun". The singer revealed that fans can expect a change in music style on her fourth studio album, which will be released later this year. "I just wanna have fun. That was my main brief," Natalie told the Daily Star. "No introspection, let's not over-think this, I wanted the music to feel up and summery. Just fun." "This record I wanted to be more light-hearted. It reflects how I'm feeling now. Ben totally felt that," she continued. "I've chilled out a lot. Maybe it's just my age. I don't take it all as seriously as I used to and I don't feel I have to prove myself any more." <ref>[http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/music/a83592/imbruglia-promises-fun-new-album.html Music - News - Imbruglia promises "fun" new album - Digital Spy]</ref> International release plans will be out in early '09.<ref>[http://www.natalie-imbruglia.co.uk Natalie Imbruglia - Official Website]</ref>

[[Birmingham]]’s drummer [[Karl Brazil]] has worked on the album as a musical director.<ref>[http://www.birminghammail.net/what-is-on-in-birmingham/rock-and-pop/2008/10/03/you-can-t-beat-working-with-james-drummer-97319-21958683/ You can't beat working with James - drummer - Birmingham Mail]</ref> English singer [[Bo Bruce]] has worked on a few backing tracks for the album.<ref>[http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/headlines/display.var.2443603.0.earls_girl_seeks_a_place_in_spotlight.php Earls Girl Seeks A Place In Spotlight (from This Is Wiltshire)]</ref> According to the Britsh paper [[The Daily Mirror]], [[the Klaxons]] are collaborating with Natalie Imbruglia for new material. The paper makes no mention of what sort of project this is or how they will be working together.<ref>[http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/3am/2008/06/06/natalie-imbruglia-working-with-nu-ravers-klaxons-89520-20596536/ Natalie Imbruglia working with nu ravers Klaxons - mirror.co.uk]</ref>

Songs likely to be on the album are<ref>[http://repertoire.bmi.com/writer.asp?fromrow=1&torow=25&keyname=IMBRUGLIA%20NATALIE&querytype=WriterID&keyid=640774&page=1&blnWriter=True&blnPublisher=True&blnArtist=True&affiliation=PRS&cae=265453359 BMI]</ref><ref>[http://www.ascap.com/ace/search.cfm?requesttimeout=300&mode=results&searchstr=1568701&search_in=c&search_type=exact&search_det=t,s,w,p,b,v&results_pp=20&start=1 ASCAP]</ref>:
#Scars (co-written with [[Ben Hillier]] and [[David McCracken]])
#Shine on you (co-written with [[Gary Clark]])
#Apologise (co-written with [[Jamie Hartman]])
#Gift of you (co-written with [[Mike Foothoi]] and [[Winston Sela]])
#Too Late (co-written with [[James Morisson]] and [[Martin Terefe]])
#Before The Day is Gone (co-written with [[Wayne Rodriguez]] and [[Sheppard Solomon]])
#Twenty (co-written with [[Sheppard Solomon]])
#Brand new day (co written with [[Sacha Skarbek]])
#When I'm with you (co written with [[Martin Bressle]], [[Kara Dioguardi]] and [[Ash Hause]])
#Don't Want To Cry (co written with [[David A. Stewart]])
#In Need of Attention (co written with [[David A. Stewart]])
#Hold On (co written with [[David A. Stewart]])
#We've Come So Far (co written with [[David A. Stewart]])

===Other recordings===
In 1999 Natalie released the single "Identify", written by [[Billy Corgan]] of [[The Smashing Pumpkins]]. The dark, brooding song — an artistic departure for Imbruglia — appeared on the soundtrack for the movie [[Stigmata (movie)|''Stigmata'']].

Imbruglia also wrote a song with Nick Seymour and David Biegel in 1999 called ''Troubled By The Way We Came Together'' which was part of the soundtrack for the movie "Go".

Imbruglia recorded the song "Cold Air" for the [[Mexico|Mexican]] movie "[[Y tu mama tambien]]", which also appeared as a B-Side on [[Beauty on the Fire]].<ref>[http://www.mldb.org/song-149714-cold-air.html MLDb - Lyrics of Y Tu Mamá También Soundtrack - Cold Air<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>

A further soundtrack contribution, ''All The Magic'', was used in the Italian animated movie [[Winx Club: The Secret of the Lost Kingdom|Winx Club - Il Segreto Del Regno Perduto]] (''The Secret Of The Lost Kingdom''). So far this track has not been released outside of [[Italy]].

==Film career==
===''Johnny English''===
Imbruglia made her big screen debut as an actress in the 2003 British comedy, ''[[Johnny English]]''. Starring alongside [[Rowan Atkinson]], she played a supporting role as Lorna Campbell. The movie also featured another musical talent, [[Bond (band)|Bond]], in a cameo appearance. Internationally, the movie did well despite negative reviews from critics. It topped box offices in 22 countries and grossed around $150m.

===''Elise''===
Since 2004, Imbruglia has been preparing for the lead role of Elise Silverton in the Australian independent film ''Elise''. Filming wrapped in November 2007. The movie will be premiered at European film festivals and released in Australia in early 2009.

==Television==
===''Neighbours''===
Imbruglia made her first regular TV appearance as the character [[Beth Willis|Beth Brennan Willis]] in the popular Australian soap ''[[Neighbours]]'' at the age of 16 in 1991.

===''L'Oréal''===
Imbruglia became a worldwide spokesperson for [[L'Oréal]] after the release of ''White Lilies Island''. She was a model for many cosmetic products by L'Oréal, particularly mascaras and skincare products. She also appeared in several TV commercials for L'Oréal. In July 2007, her five-year contract with L'Oréal expired and was not prolonged, because, in her words during an appearance on [[The Graham Norton Show]], she's "apparently ... not worth it anymore".<ref>Starpulse News Blog [http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2007/07/10/natalie_imbruglia_dropped_from_l_oreal Natalie Imbruglia Dropped From L'Oreal]</ref> (The quote refers to the company's slogan "Because I'm Worth It".)

===''Celebrity Deathmatch''===
Imbruglia was featured in the 6th episode of 2nd season of [[Celebrity Deathmatch]], in which [[Mel Gibson]] and [[Paul Hogan]] fought.

==Personal life==
On New Years Eve 2003, Imbruglia and her boyfriend of three and a half years, [[Silverchair]] frontman [[Daniel Johns]], were married in a beach ceremony in Port Douglas, Queensland, Australia. While Imbruglia lived mainly in [[Windsor]], [[Berkshire]], [[UK]], on an island named "White Lillies" (also the name of her second album), Johns lived in [[Newcastle, New South Wales|Newcastle, Australia]].<ref>{{citeweb|url=http://www.mirror.co.uk/showbiz/latest/2008/01/04/natalie-imbruglia-love-split-89520-20274447/|title=Natalie Imbruglia love split|publisher=Sunday Mirror|date=4 January 2008|accessdate=2008-01-04}}</ref> On January 4, 2008, Imbruglia and Johns released a statement announcing their [[divorce]], citing the tyranny of distance as the main reason.<ref>{{citeweb|url=http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23007100-5001021,00.html|title=Dan and Nat's marriage split|publisher=The Daily Telegraph|date=January 4, 2008|accessdate=2008-01-04}}</ref>. However, the two remain friends. She has also dated [[David Schwimmer]]
===Personal causes===
*Imbruglia is an ambassador for [[Virgin Unite]] and supports campaigns to end [[poverty]] and to bring attention to the disease known as [[obstetric fistula]].
*She appeared in a sketch at the [[The Secret Policeman's Ball (2006)|Secret Policeman's Ball]] for [[Amnesty International]] on October 31, 2006.
*She has also spoken publicly of suffering from [[clinical depression]] to raise awareness about the disorder.<ref>[http://www.sane.org/Information/People/Natalie_Imbruglia.html http://www.sane.org/Information/People/Natalie_Imbruglia.html] ''Sane.org'' </ref>
*2008 saw Natalie step up to support the [http://www.targetbreastcancer.org.uk ''Fashion Targets Breast Cancer''] campaign in support of [[Breakthrough Breast Cancer]], alongside fellow celebrities: comedian [[Alan Carr]], DJ & presenter [[Edith Bowman]], actress [[Anna Friel]] and supermodel [[Twiggy]].

==Looks and fashion==
Imbruglia was named 6th most naturally beautiful woman of all time in 2004.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3763887.stm BBC NEWS | UK | Audrey Hepburn tops beauty poll<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> [[Audrey Hepburn]] topped the poll in which only experts like fashion editors, model agents and make-up artists could vote. The voting was decided on the "most naturally beautiful woman, inside and out".
She was ranked 90th on the VH1 100 Sexiest Artists.<ref>[http://www.vh1.com/shows/dyn/the_greatest/61839/episode_wildcard.jhtml?wildcard=/shows/dynamic/includes/wildcards/the_greatest/sexiest_list_full.jhtml&event_id=862675&start=1 VH1 100 Sexiest Artists]</ref>

She has been seen sporting [[tattoos]] of [[Sanskrit]]/[[Hindi]] inscription "Shreya" on her neck, Chinese word for courage on her left foot and Sanskrit ''[[Aum]]'' on her lower back, and has her left nipple pierced.<ref>[http://www.imbruglia-inside.com/piercingandtattoos.htm piercings & tattoos<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>

Imbruglia stated that she has never had any [[plastic surgery]] but added "I wouldn't rule it out because I don't know how I'll feel in the future." She also stated she'd like to "grow old gracefully, wrinkles and all".<ref>[http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/imbruglia%20accepts%20her%20natural%20look] ''ContactMusic.com'' </ref>

Besides modelling for L'Oréal, Imbruglia also modelled Sass and Bides "The Mad Ones" dress to raise money for cancer.

== Discography ==
{{main|Natalie Imbruglia discography}}

*1997: ''[[Left of the Middle]]''
*2001: ''[[White Lilies Island]]''
*2005: ''[[Counting Down the Days]]''
*2007: ''[[Glorious: The Singles 1997-2007]]''
*2009: ''To Be Announced''

==Notes==
{{reflist|2}}
* [http://www.natalie-imbruglia.co.uk Natalie Imbruglia's Official site]
* {{MySpace|natalieimbruglia}}
* {{imdb name|id=0001386|name=Natalie Imbruglia}}
* [http://www.endfistula.org/download/new%20indian%20express.pdf Article in the Indian press about Natalie Imbruglia's involvement in the Campaign to End Fistula]
* [http://www.targetbreastcancer.org.uk Official UK site for ''Fashion Targets Breast Cancer'']

{{Natalie Imbruglia}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Imbruglia, Natalie}}
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[[Category:Australians of Italian descent]]
[[Category:Sicilian Australians]]
[[Category:Australian vegetarians]]
[[Category:Australian Roman Catholics]]
[[Category:Australian television actors]]
[[Category:Australian pop singers]]
[[Category:Australian female singers]]
[[Category:Australian singer-songwriters]]
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Revision as of 15:14, 11 October 2008

Panic of 1907

Nominator(s): JayHenry (talk)
Toolbox

The most interesting, in my opinion, of the panics of the National Banking Era. I believe this meets all the criteria and is particularly timely as well. I look forward to addressing any issues that reviewers feel are outstanding. Special thanks to GA reviewer User:Mattisse who also helped fixing it up to GA status; to User:Protonk and User:Ceoil for extensive and invaluable polishing toward that end; and to User:Robertknyc for checking over so many of the details and helping with the stock data. --JayHenry (talk) 04:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

  • Comment From the Aftermath section: "Immigration dropped to 750,000 people in 1909 from 1.2 million people two years earlier." Do Bruner and Carr (don't have the book handy) note this as directly connected to the panic? Also, other elements of the aftermath section seem better explained by the prolonged contraction from Jan-Sep rather than the acute financial panic that is the subject of the article. I'm loathe to change that section without access to the references myself, hence the question. :) Protonk (talk) 06:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
    I'll ponder this. Not sure how one would isolate the effects of the contraction, the stock crash and the bank panic. They are all so interrelated. Perhaps the aftermath section should just make that clearer? --JayHenry (talk) 13:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
    I think its fine; its clearly just context. Ceoil sláinte 23:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
    I've reworded this a bit. To address the specific question, they note all these points in a couple of paragraphs on the economic fall out in this period of American history. Calomiris finds that panics in this period invariably accompany stock crashes. I'd be reluctant, however, to go too deeply into theories about panics in this article. --JayHenry (talk) 01:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
    Thanks. I gathered that it was meant to be context but figured the wording could have been clearer. Protonk (talk) 03:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Might note that with courtesy links to the JSTOR articles a subscription is required. (Doesn't invalidate the use of the articles as sources, just makes it clear to folks that the links are courtesy links and not everyone will be able to access them). Ealdgyth - Talk 13:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Could you please show me which JSTOR articles we've not done this for? I tried to get them all. --JayHenry (talk) 13:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Click on the "check external links" thingie (don't you love my technical vocabulary?) in the tools box. It'll show you all the links colored in a golden yellow that require some sort of subscription/registration. Very handy little tool, don't forget to thank the coder for it! Ealdgyth - Talk 04:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry Ealdgyth, I don't understand what you're asking. I know which links are JSTOR links and have already tried to signify this. Could you please fix this for me so I can see what you're talking about? I sincerely thought I'd done this correctly. --JayHenry (t) 04:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
YOu got it, you just did it differently than I've ever seen it done ... and if I hadn't had such a sinus headache yesterday, I might have noticed it sooner. You're good! Ealdgyth - Talk 13:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Support, as a copy editor, though I hand no hand or part in the content. The article was fully written before i got involved, and I only took interest because it was full of insight and provided me with a clear look into the turmoil of the period. I think the structure is particularly well drafted; its pacy and engaging, the research is above reproach and the sources cleverly used to weaved together a complicated story into an accesable timeline. Ceoil sláinte 01:08, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
    Thank you, dear Brit. I was very much aiming for a nicely paced and engaging article (too bad we almost never talk about pace at FAC), and I'm glad you noticed. --JayHenryc (talk) 01:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
    NB He's not British, but hales from a nearby island. Tony (talk) 11:12, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    Good man Tony. Ceoil sláinte 13:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    Ah... not very good with geography. I looked this up and learned that Ireland is an independent nation of some sort (who knew?) The difference between Scottish and Irish is still very fuzzy for me. Which ones have all the freckles and potatoes? --JayHenry (talk) 14:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
We Irish have the potatoes, them scots (also celts) are blessed with red hair and freckles, god love em. Ceoil sláinte 14:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Support Timely.
  • Omg I totally did not look this up, but Jackson got rid of the Second Bank in...1832? Or 1836? Am I close? At any rate, a year should be indicated. How long did the US go without a central bank, and how common were runs up to this point?
  • Different tenses? There is no exact measure of when a panic occurred
  • The committee issues a scathing report issued?
  • I thought it was an interesting read. I did have to check some blue links, not being intimately familiar with some finance terms. I found the article both readable and technical. Short selling, panics, and runs get into some more abstract areas of economics. There were a few places that I thought could benefit by just a bit more help for the average reader unfamiliar with some of these concepts. Otherwise, I enjoyed the article. --Moni3 (talk) 12:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
    Hi Moni! Thanks for the nice words. So, Congress passed, but Jackson vetoed, an extension in 1832, he stopped depositing government money there in 1833, its federal charter expired in 1836 and it actually went out of business in 1841. I went with the 1836 date. Fixed the next two as well. As for your final point... (I was thinking of doing Bear Stearns at some point, but worry about going into collateralized debt obligations, mark-to-market accounting principles and credit default swaps.) If you can point out where specifically the text would benefit from a bit of further explication would help, I can certainly add context to those spots. --JayHenry (talk) 01:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments

  • Unsure of the factual, but would this: "The crisis occurred after an attempt by Otto Heinze to corner the market in United Copper failed in October, 1906." be be better as this? "The crisis occurred after the failed attempt by Otto Heinze in October 1906 to corner the market in United Copper." No link for Heinze, so you might consider a phrase telling us that he was ... an industrialist? Was United Copper ", a major US mining company"? Pack too much into the sentence and it becomes unwieldy, but these things are part of the big picture we need to know at the start.
  • " With the collapse of New York's third largest trust company"—was that Copper of Knickerbocker? Clearly the latter when you think about it, but you need to explain things more carefully in the lead for non-experts.
  • "regional banks" twice in one sentence. Can this be avoided?
  • "further" could probably be dropped. Is "pulled" ambiguous/loose? "withdrew"? And by "New York", you mean the state, the city, the stock exchange?
  • A lot of folks, particularly non-Americans (but many Americans, too) won't quite know what "anti-trust" means, even though it's linked. I think we're supposed not to rely on links to explain such terms. Again, it might require more wording to get around this, and a consequent split into two sentences.
Antitrust law redirects to Competition law. I think Americans would have no trouble with "antitrust", but perhaps non-Americans are not familiar with laws relating to business competition, and there should be explanations of such concepts for non-American folk. (It only relates peripherally to the article; the various financiers had to go to President Roosevelt to get permission to act in unison, because of the tough antitrust/competition laws which forbade business monopolies or collusion.) Would it be clearer just to remove the concept from the lead, so as not to confuse non-American folk? It could be expanded in the article at the relevant point when the financiers actually go to President Roosevelt for permission. —Mattisse (Talk) 08:31, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Would "antitrust (competition) law" be OK? Tony (talk) 11:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • The last clause in the lead is the crux of the whole article, yes? Good.

I haven't read further and will return, but there's enough here to chew off for the moment. I have hopes for this one, and if the nominator didn't have a good track record in fixing, I'd recommend withdrawal and resubmission in a few weeks. See what you can do. Great topic if the troops can understand it. Tony (talk) 04:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

  • PS "backstop" ... "stopped". Radar beam out for those repetitions. Tony (talk) 04:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments on images - There is some work to be done on the images. :)

  • Image:JP Morgan.jpg - This image needs an original source that demonstrates the photo is from 1903, etc.

I'm reviewing the rest of the article now - I am quite excited to read it! Awadewit (talk) 12:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Fixed all except for Image:Fed Reserve.JPG which wasn't my image, and I couldn't determine the source so I removed. --JayHenry (talk) 14:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Oppose for now This is a clearly-written and fascinating article - we have too few economics articles and this is certainly a timely one, so thank you! I have a few concerns regarding images (outlined above) and sources, but I have no doubt these can be cleared up quickly. I found the article's prose to improve dramatically after the lead, for some reason, and then to decline a little again in the "Aftermath" section. I have isolated some sentences from the lead that need improvement:

  • Yeah, I hate WP:LEAD. If I could it'd be the first (but nowhere near the last) part of MOS I'd nuke. I'll work on these prose fixes. --JayHenry (talk) 14:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    I can't write a lead to save my life. Awadewit (talk) 14:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • This quickly spread across the nation, leading to the closures of both state and local banks and businesses. - I'm not sure it is entirely clear what the "this" refers back to.
    Clarified. Ceoil sláinte 14:31, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • The crisis occurred after an attempt by businessman Otto Heinze to corner the market in stock of the United Copper Company failed in October 1906. - This sentence doesn't read right to me.
    Clarified. Ceoil sláinte
    I've worked on it a bit - see if it is still correct. Awadewit (talk) 14:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    Its good. Ceoil sláinte 14:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    Presumably he had borrowed heavily in his bid and his failure to repay his debts hurt a number of institutions. Jay, can you calrify. Ceoil sláinte 14:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • With the collapse of the Knickerbocker, fear spread throughout the city's trusts as regional banks withdrew deposits from New York City banks, and nationwide as people withdrew their deposits from regional banks. - This sentence should have parallel structure - as it stands fear spreads through trusts and nationwide. Ideally, the sentence should compare two places or two kinds of banks, if you see what I mean.
    Reworded. Ceoil sláinte 14:28, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    Parallel structure is still a problem - "city's trusts" is not parallel to "nationwide". Awadewit (talk) 14:51, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    I have no idea at all what Parallel structure means! Can youexplain so I can fix. Ceoil sláinte 14:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    Parallel structure (incomplete article) means that sentences are supposed to be structured so that nouns and verbs are logically and grammatically organized. In this sentence, two different kinds of nouns are being compared: a kind of banking institution is being compared to a location ("trusts" are being compared to a "nationwide") - the logic of the sentence breaks down. Awadewit (talk) 15:01, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • The panic would have deepened if not for the intervention of J.P. Morgan, who convinced other New York bankers to provide a backstop - Is "backstop" a technical term here?
    Its meaning seems obvious to me. Ceoil sláinte 14:28, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    To me, it sounds colloquial, but I thought perhaps it was a technical term. If it is a technical term, it should stay, if it is not, it should be replaced by something less slangy. Awadewit (talk) 14:52, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    Fair enough; Tony also objected to this. Done. Ceoil sláinte 15:02, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    It's also a technical term[1]. I thought it would be clear to lay readers, and also signal to an economist that it's technically correct. I think Tony was just objecting to the use of stopped later in the same sentence. --JayHenry (talk) 15:14, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Although Morgan lost $21 million in the panic, and the significance of the role he played in staving off worse disaster is undisputed, he became the focus of intense scrutiny and criticism. - This is cited to an opinion piece in the Washington Post - opinion pieces are not fact-checked like news stories. Could we find a reliable source for this claim?
    Um... Awadewit, the national american newspapers like the Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, rigorously check the facts in their opinion pieces. Did you think you could write an opinion piece in The Washington Post and say "J. P. Morgan had a trillion dollars and two heads" and the editors would say, "eh, seems unlikely, but it's an opinion!"  :) Anyways, this is part of the Washington Post Outlook section which is lumped together on their web site with opinions, but it's not actually the op-ed page. This is written by Jean Strouse, a J.P. Morgan scholar, the author of "Morgan, American Financier" and director of the Dorothy and Lewis B. Cullman Center for Scholars and Writers at the New York Public Library. This source is okay. --JayHenry (talk) 14:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    Opinion pieces are not fact-checked like news stories. They are the production of the authors who submit them and printed as such - that is one reason why newspapers print disclaimers regarding them. I saw that this piece was written by someone who has written on J.P. Morgan, but my concern is the oversight of the article. I see nothing to indicate that this is not an opinion piece published for the Post. This description of the "Outlook" section explains that it is a hybrid, but that it is most definitely an "opinion" section. The editors apparently look for "provocative" pieces. None of this is very reassuring to me. So many of the other sources in this article are excellent academic productions which have been peer-reviewed. If the statement supported by this Post article is in none of those academic, peer-reviewed sources, I would be concerned. Awadewit (talk) 14:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    "Outlook, the Sunday opinion section, is a hybrid. The front of the section is put out by the news staff." This is page B1 ie the front of the section. There's no requirement that I remove a J.P. Morgan scholar writing about Morgan in the Outlook section of the Washington Post. That passes RS in spades. It's also helpful for people who don't have easy access to a library. --JayHenry (talk) 14:36, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    I would resist anything that is an opinion piece, frankly. Scholars can say in opinion pieces what they cannot say in peer-reviewed books. That is why I am asking for a peer-reviewed source to back up this claim. We are not talking about a claim regarding a current event here. Awadewit (talk) 14:40, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    Do you consider citing a single sentence in the article to a JP Morgan scholar writing about JP Morgan in a section produced by the news staff of the Washington Post, in the Sunday Outlook section, to be a dealbreaker in terms of satisfying WP:WIAFA? I do not have access to the claim elsewhere. If you believe this is an actionable objection grounded in the criteria, I will remove. --JayHenry (talk) 15:14, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Fettig, David (ed) (1989), "F. Augustus Heinze and the Panic of 1907", The Region (Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis), <http://minneapolisfed.org/pubs/region/89-08/REG898C.cfm> . Retrieved on September 14, 2008 - I am not sure that this source is cited correctly. At the bottom of the webpage, it sort of looks like this is an excerpt from another book. "Copper King at War," published in 1968 by the University of Montana Press and currently out of print, is based on McNelis' master's thesis completed in 1947. Among her many sources for her thesis was a 72-page collection of correspondence she had with Otto Heinze, F. Augustus' brother, between 1943 and 1947. That collection remains in the author's possession." - This suggests to me that the piece is taken from the book - what do you think?
    I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Fettig is clearly reviewing McNelis' book. --JayHenry (talk) 14:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    Oh, sorry - I got turned around. What I meant to ask was why we are citing the book review rather than the book itself for the claim that "Some analysts believed that the panic had been engineered, either to punish Heinze or as part of an elaborate plot for U.S. Steel to acquire TC&I, or to damage confidence in trust companies so that banks would benefit". Awadewit (talk) 14:37, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
    The answer is that I do not have access to this out-of-print 1968 biography of a copper magnate. I will be happy to add additional sources about the general conspiracy theory type claims, however. --JayHenry (talk) 15:14, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I have no doubt that the editors can meet my concerns during this FAC and that I will be able to support soon. Awadewit (talk) 13:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

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