Talk:Wahhabism

The Facts about the real Wahhabism Sect

the entire naming is inaccurate. Wahhabism is an Ibadhi (Not Sunni) sect founded in North Africa in the 2nd Hijri century by Abdulwahhab bin Abdulrahman bin Rustum Al Ibadhi. Muslim clerics (Sunnis) in Morroco and Al Andalus at that time issued Fatwas against that "wahhabism" for its religious heresy and unislamic believes.

when the 1st Saudi State (Sunni of the Hanbali sect , Not Wahhabi) rised powerfully in the 18th century , the enemies of it couldn't fight it on ideological level so they decided to dig in the several hudreds of years old fatwas of the Muslim clerics in Morroco and Andalus inorder to label the new Saudi State by "Wahhabism" (by looking at the name of the father of Imam Muhammad) and consider it an "infidel" and isolate it from expansioning and to scare the naive Muslims from joining the new state.

the term "wahhabism" unfortunately kept being used in this improfessional way through media. it has to be corrected and this page has to be about that sect which was founded in north Africa 1200 years ago not the Sunnis of the Saudi State and Arabian peninsulla. i really hope Wikipedia to enlighten the world about these facts and to end this misconception.

for more Academic and reliable information , you may read the book "CORRECTING HISTORICAL MISTAKE ABOUT ALWAHABIYAH" by Dr.Muhammad Sa'ad Al-Shuwai'er. its a free book and available online and there are copies of it in Arabic , Persian and French. its the only book which discusses the roots of the term "wahhabism" and where it come from and how the Sunnis of the Arabian peninsulla became labeled with this term.

its on the page http://www.saaid.net/monawein/sh/18.htm you may download the entire book from here in the form of microsoft word file http://www.saaid.net/monawein/sh/18.doc the same page says you may aquire the book in several languages (for a charity small price) by emailing him mshowaier@saudi.net.sa

--77.31.246.198 (talk) 08:46, 3rd/7/2008 (UTC)Saudi-Intellectual

Nothing As 'Wahhabism' in Fiqha (or jurisprudence)of Islam

It is a meaningless term, it is a misnomer, they follow the beliefs of Ahle Sunnah wal-Jammaa, and do not form any 'ism'. The term 'Wahhabism' was coined by the British Colonizers in the 18th century when the newly formed rising first dynasty of KSA under the auspices of Amir Mohammad bin AsSaud & Sheikh Mohammad bin Abdul Wahhab came into conflict with the former to protect their country, & came into circulation thenceforth & with the detractors thereafter.

Actually, the term "Wahhabi" was used by Sulayman Ibn Abdul-Wahhab, when he refuted his brother, Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhab--who is the founder of the Wahhabi movement. Other Sunni scholars also referred to the Wahhabi movement as "Wahhabis," as did the Wahhabis themselves. However, over time, as the followers of Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhab gained an increasingly worse reputation for their various innovations, pillage, and slaughter, the Wahhabis attempted to distance themselves from their earlier epithet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noor House (talk • contribs) 03:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Sulayman Ibn Abdul-Wahhab never wrote a refutation of his brother; this is actually a myth spread predominantly by Sufis, as the beliefs of Sufis and Ibn Abdul Wahhab clash with one another. The supposed refutation doesn't exist and I guarantee it cannot be found anywhere. Also, neither the people this term supposedly refers to nor other types of Sunni Muslim scholars at the time ever used the term "Wahhabi"; the word wasn't coined later until, as was mentioned, the British coined it. Please keep sectarian polemics out of serious article discussion. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The belief of Ahl-us-Sunnah clashes with the Wahhabi sect because the Wahhabis are from the faction called the "Mushabbihah"--that is, those who deem the Creator similar to the creations. The article doesn't make it clear that the Wahhabis are not from Ahl-us-Sunnah, for the Sunnis do not believe that God is a corporeal entity existing in time, space, or direction. The Wahhabis on the other hand, pray to an (imaginary) entity sitting on top of Paradise with a giant smiling face, eyes, out stretched hands, fingers, a tibia, and a pair of enormous feet. This belief has been refuted time and time again by Ahl-us-Sunnah. The Wahhabis are quasi-Sunnis, but their creed is not consonant with the Sunni belief (as is mentioned, for instance, in the Creed of At-Tahawiyy). As far as the Sunni books refuting Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhab, Sulayman's book is not a myth. And certainly the Mufti of Mecca at his time, Ahmad Zayn Ad-Dahlan, and his book on the rape and pillage of the Wahhabis (Fitnatul-Wahhabiyyah) is not a a myth. It is all part of Wahhabi propaganda to pretend that Wahhabis "don't exist"--although the Sunni Muslims wrote many refutations of their anthropomorphic doctrines.

Lastly, distinguishing the Sunni orthodoxy from the Wahhabi innovation/heresy/blasphemy is to make it clear that the Sunnis do not deem as Muslim people who think God is a spatial entity. Again, the article doesn't make it clear that the strife and extremism caused by the Wahhabis is rooted in their sectarian doctrines. And it is these doctrines that led the Wahhabis of yesteryear and today to deem the Muslims at large infidels and to kill them--as well as, to commit random slaughter of non-Muslims. Investigate the history of this movement, and one will see it is stained in blood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noor House (talk • contribs) 16:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Made some changes to my previous comment on the discussion page

The paragraph before the last in the to "ashmoo" part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonassra (talk • contribs) 22:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I am going to remove the biased comments from the article. Most Muslims believe that wahhabis are a deviant group, so it is obvious that the biased comments are going to be removed if you want to have a true article.Samsparky (talk) 05:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)Samsparky

I have no problem with ensuring the article has a neutral point of view, but there's a few issues with your recent edits:

• Firstly, the template you're adding to the top isn't working and just places a redlink template message in the lead. I removed it but you've put it back without fixing it. Could you have a look at this please?
• Second, sentences like "Wahhabis claim that Wahhabism also denounces the practice of blind adherence" are unnecessary - Wahhabism is defined by what its adherents claim it is, whether or not they then practice what they preach. Saying "Wahhabis say wahhabism says" is a simple duplication.
• Thirdly, the phrase "it is said" should generally be avoided as it is weasel wording. It is said by who? If we cannot provide a referenced source for who says these things, we cannot include them in the article.

This isn't an overall criticism of your work on this page, but these are reasonably important issues in terms of readers comprehension. Euryalus (talk) 05:56, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Half the example you brought up were put up by me. And if you don't like it is said, replace it with it is a common held belief... If you don't like weasel wording then you have a lot of work to do in wikipedia.

The reference are there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.43.2.1 (talk) 17:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

What are you talking about Samparsky?? Most muslims believe wahhabis a deviant group. If you use wahhabism as an adjective then every muslim and non muslim is against them. Don't invent a word, define a concept. So is Bin Laden a Wahhabi or are the senior Saudi clerics fought by Bin Ladin wahhabis ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.43.2.1 (talk) 17:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The existence of weasel words in other articles is not a good rationale for also having it here. "It is a common belief" has the same problem as "it is said" - it doesn't explain who holds this belief or give any evidence that it is in fact commonly held and not just the opinion of the editor. User:MezzoMezzo makes some further points about this below.

In passing could you also please sign your posts with the four tildes like this :~~~~ as it makes it easier to follow who is contributing to the conversation and in what order. Euryalus (talk) 22:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi

I honestly do not know how to use that template but I will try.

The reason why I wrote "wahhabis say...." is because sometimes wahhabis claim to possess certain attributes when they do not - they do not possess it and they also do not preach it.

I believe that saying "wahhabism is....", is stating a fact about them not only about what they preach - that is how it is understood in english - true or not?

Also, the statements where I put "it is said" were not referenced and I put it is said because I do not know if they are true or not. The author didn't reference.

I will make another edit attempt and you help me. I'm willing to accept useful advice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Samsparky (talk • contribs) 10:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

"It is said" and things like that technically count as Weasel words, so they should be avoided at all times. Also, avoid inserting POV; while you may feel that this group claims to have attributes they do not, this is opinion and not fact. Encyclopedic articles are just to tell who, what, where, when, why. Readers can make up their own minds as to the correctness of religious groups.

Also, watch the grammar and spelling. Proper nouns, such as "Wahhabis" and other groups of people should be capitalized. Make sure to pay attention to punctuation as well. MezzoMezzo (talk) 16:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

references

Let me get you some accurate sources then to prove my point.124.170.203.12 (talk) 04:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)samsparky

Creed Controversy

The article does not make it clear that the essential distinction between the orthodox Sunni majority and the Wahhabi movement is in the matter of `Aqidah (Creed). The Wahhabis now pretend that "there is no such thing as Wahhabis," although this was the epithet given to them by the orthodox Sunni scholars who refuted the innovations and heresies of the Wahhabis two centuries ago. The traditional Sunni Muslims believe that Allah is is absolutely Incomparable and absolutely Transcendent (as in Free-of-Need--and NOT of altitude). The sayings of the Sunni scholars is that Allah is not a corporeal entity, and that Allah exists without being in one or in all locations. Among the most famous treatises on the Sunni Creed, the `Aqidah of At-Tahawiyy, the esteemed author, Abu Ja`far Al-Warraq At-Tahawiyy said:

"Allah is supremely glorified from all boundaries, extremities, sides, organs, and appendages or devices (adawaat). None of the six directions [above, below, right left, in front, or behind] contain Allah as is the case with all the creations."

This statement alone is adequate to refute the tashbih (the blasphemous belief in "God-resemblance") of the Wahhabi sect. Among the beliefs of the Wahhabis is that Allah is "sitting in person" (as Uthaimeen claims) above the creation and has a literal giant smiling face, large eyes, a pair of outstretched hands, a tibia, two enormous feet, and that Allah spends part of the day inside the creations. At-Tahawiyy said explicitly that Allah is clear of organs/appendages. The Wahhabis say otherwise. At-Tahawiyy said that Allah exists without being in directions. The Wahhabis say otherwise; they believe Allah is actually located in a very, very high place above the earth. As any native speaker of English can understand that idiomatic and figurative usage abounds in the English language, and that we don't take every phrase at "face value," one should be able to understand that Qur'anic Arabic also uses figurative language. Consequently, when Muslims say "Allahu Ta`aalaa" (God the Exalted), it obviously doesn't mean that God is literally located somewhere above our heads. When Muslms say Allah is "Exalted," we mean that Allah is Perfect and is clear or all created characteristics (such as, being in time, distance, or direction). Many of the words in the Qur'an may have a dozen or more different meanings in the Arabic language, and only a person who is out of touch with the heritage of Sunni scholarship/theology would insist that Allah, Who is the Creator of space and all that exists within space, is a spatial entity with corporeal characteristics. The so-called "Salafis" are only Sunni in name, but not in Creed or methodology. That is a simple fact of history.

The belief that Allah is a spatial being with "real actual" organs and appendages is a doctrine that goes back to some of the pseudo-Hanbalis, who misunderstood and distorted the non-literal verses (muhkam) of the Qur'an (as well as, Hadith of the Prophet). As a result of the Wahhabis' erroneous methodology, they rendered various verses and Hadiths in opposition to each other, and incongruous with basic common sense. In summary the Eternal Creator was and place/space/direction were not. After Allah created place/space/direction, Allah did not transform and begin to exist in place, space, or direction. This is the belief of the Muslims and can be found in hundreds of classical books on the Sunni Islamic `Aqidah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noor House (talk • contribs) 04:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Adding sentence to lead

I've added It has developed considerable influence in the Muslim world through generous funding of mosques, schools and other means from Persian Gulf oil wealth. Such an important point deserves a sentence.

If people think it needs citations added I will add but there are already many citations in the International influence section --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I've removed it... The comment is not referenced and seems to clash with other sources i find. Some undermine the importance of building mosques, others believe these claim to be generalisation and only fitting a pattern that seems obvious to some.

Its unreferenced and unsubstantiated at best. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonassra (talk • contribs) 00:33, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

How bad is this article ?

This article must be 2000 words of descriptive non-sense without any real substance.

Bingo. This is what happens when you have an article based on a boogeyman as MezzoMezzo puts it, rather than a real faith, like Salafism. --Enzuru 00:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

It is still impossible to define a concept of wahhabism. It is impossible to define and identify the methodological grounds on which they base their thoughts. And the only commonality obvious to us, seems to be shared between sunnis of different sects and even shiites and sunnis. It seems less possible to define who they are and what they are about except angry and "nutty muslims".

I disagree. I think the very attributes most Salafis or Wahhabis are the true Islam is what is specific to them. For example, they are almost all unanimously against intercession of saints, while maybe half of Muslims (Barelvis are who dominant over Deobandis in Pakistan and India, Sufism which is influential in the Balkans and Central Asia and of course the Indian Subcontinent, and almost all Shi'a Muslims) practice it. --Enzuru 00:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonassra (talk • contribs) 00:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC) This article is in no way academic and seems like a collection of BBC feature programs on islam...

Personally i must try to be modest and believe for a fact that there is no wahhabism, at least because supposed wahhabis and "other" sunni muslims do not know what the word means !! If muslims as a whole, secular muslims and muslim scholars don't know what "wahhabism" is then there must be something wrong !!

We all know the buzz word... This buzz word "WAHHABISM" seems to me to be a mixture of terrorism, 9/11, burqas, afghanistan, hezbollah, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Turkey and ultra conservative muslims. An apple and an orange is an apple and an orange, its not an applorange or an orapple... its an apple and an orange.

You're right, there is Salafism, but not Wahhabism. It's a myth. --Enzuru 00:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

There is only the buzz word. There is salafism, there is terrorism, there is resistance, there are shia conservatives there are sunni conservative, there is islam but there is no wahhabism.

Stop describing bits and pieces of different things and trying to group it into one big thing.

It may be nice and fun to some of you to do so. It might help you think you understand the rest of the world. BUT ITS STILL UNSUBSTANTIATED NONSENSE. (If this is how you want to keep understanding muslims and the rest of the world, if you're really having fun, if you're finding your purpose in life and believing you understand the world then keep tuning to the BBC and Fox. You might even write an article about flying pigs one of these days) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonassra (talk • contribs) 00:23, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Please, don't complain. If you have ideas, put them out. We need to understand this. It is by no means a simple issue. --Enzuru 00:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Enzuru

I appreciate your responses. But we must agree to disagree. Not only salafis disagree with the veneration of saints. Egypt's Al Azhar for instance, as well as many sufis and non-sufis in the balkans, India, Indonesia, Malaysia frown on these "popular" practices etc...

I didn't say only Salafis. I said it was a stance that distinguishes Salafism from many other Muslims such as Barelvis, most Sufis, and Shi'a Musims. --Enzuru 01:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Sufis are getting a "bad rep" their beliefs and practices are being stereotyped, by the same type of people that make up words such as wahhabism, but also by muslims unfortunatly.. Sufis (and barvilis although i know much less about them) have a different philosphical tradition/school and a different school of kalam, but they agree more then it is believed with the whole of sunni tradition.

No, the issue is that Sufism is especially diverse. Orders are completely different, for example, the Bektashi order drinks alcohol and shaves their beards and don't pray. The Chisti order is huge on grave worship, especially the Barelvi. --Enzuru 01:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I would like to ask you to cite major groups when citing sub-groups. Then let me respond to you and say that salafis too differ from region to region but more importantly then from madhab to madhab (Maliki, Hanbali etc..).

That belongs in the article on Salafism, because like I said, Wahabbism is more about the boogeyman idea of Salafism or terrorism or whatever. We both agree on this. --Enzuru 01:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

For your information salafis are being influenced immensely by sufi traditions mainly the anasheed and the chants common in sufi tradition.

That's fine, cross-pollination is to be expected to extents I suppose. --Enzuru 01:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

If i am complaining it is because a group of people are hoping for a quick fix to the problems they have with islam. They refuse to even acknowledge that muslims know anything about their religion, and only base their statements on what the want to be true.

That is precisely my brother what you are trying to do as well. There is no quick fix to this article, if you want things to be shown correctly you need to discuss them with us, bring sources, and tell us what we need to change, so we can all agree and improve this article and all other articles on Wikipedia. --Enzuru 01:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

What i am trying to do is convince a group of people discussing something that only exists to them using beliefs that only exists in their minds :-D

All we are doing is using the wrong words in order to understand something made up of different things yet that don't form one consistent and coherent whole.

You need to bring sources for everything, just remember that! We can do anything you want, as long as we have valid sources to prove it. --Enzuru 01:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Sufism is vast i know that and thank you for pointing that out to me :-) But it seems more vast then you think it is if you are going to completly alienate sufism from certain parts of the world or even salafism. Yes even salafism. If you want to draw a paradox between some "sufi orders" and salafism i again ask that you mention the major sufi groups and that you differentiate between the major madhabs followed by salafis (Hanafi, shafei, hanbali, maliki).

That belongs in the article about Salafism that they follow one of the four major madhabs or no madhab at all. This article is about a group that the media and books cite exists, and saying what the world says about this group. Often the media, books, and even Sunnis will say Wahhabis don't follow a madhab. --Enzuru 01:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Please do not judge me i probably started contributing to this page before you did. If i wanted a quick fix i wouldn't have discussed the issue with you.

Sorry if I came off as rude brother, do forgive me. --Enzuru 01:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Its this tradition of stereotyping and mystifying that's plainly repulsive. Human beings are human beings, stereotyping and mystifying makes other human beings an inch closer to being less human in the eyes of those who mystify and undermine others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonassra (talk • contribs) 01:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

To Enzuru. Regarding my edits.

You acknowledged that wahhabism is a "boogeyman". Yet you don't seem to have a problem linking it to certain countries. I assume that is because you are thinking of salafism when you have to link certain parts of the world to this vague and arguably non-existent concept.

That is a very good point. But according to the media (which is significant for Wikipedia's notability guidelines), it does exist and is prominent in these countries. Please don't blame me brother, I'm not the one making these accusations. --Enzuru 01:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

If it is salafism that you are thinking of then i don't think you would disagree that this social and political manifestation of islamic beliefs is solely present in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the UAE. By the way i was the one to add Kuwait, Qatar and the UAE, i did so a few months ago !! But also added Mauritania, Algeria, Egypt, Pakistan and a few other countries. The purpose of that was to emphasise the "salafist nature" of what we are talking about.

I understand. Can you tell me precisely what the source we are citing says? That is what we should in general go by. If nothing, we need to take out the phrase altogether. --Enzuru 01:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

That said all sunni muslims (even shiites although differently) to say the least look at the ways of the salaf (the followers of the prophet) as an example to follow or to understand religion...

Yes, we do, however, all Muslims are Shi'a of Muhammad, do we call them all Shi'a? All Muslims follow the Sunnah, are we all Sunnis? You can't play with names like that, that isn't a logical argument. --Enzuru 01:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

My friend you seem to compensate your lack of knowledge with the belief that i am playing with words. The point of the argument is that salafis (are those who base their "political" beliefs and their way of life on those of the salaf). That said those that have a salafist (believe they follow the ways of the salaf) are spread all around the world. I am sunni i love respect etc... the salaf, but i do not grow my beard without shaving it (to name an example). I do not belong to this group of people called the salafis, yet many despite the differences amongst them do follow the ways of the salaf.

What in the world are you talking about? That has nothing to do with a lack of knowledge. The term Salafi is found, but RARELY found outside of contemporary literature to describe the modern movement known as Salafism. You are playing with words, it has nothing to do with my lack of knowledge. All Sunnis are not Salafis, because accordiong to the modern definition, Salafism is a new movement of Islam that differs from other Sunnis in clear and defined ways. You make up a difference between Salfafis and Salafists, can you show me somewhere where a secular scholar actually makes this difference? Someone in academia? No, you cannot. --Enzuru 02:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh my god we must be living a world apart. We must share very different experiences with islam and "political islam". I live in Kuwait about 10% of our parliament are Salafis and about 20% are part of other islamist groups (they are all sunni muslims in a country that is 80% sunni). Salafism is not a sect, its a politically conservative, modern political manifestation of sunni islam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonassra (talk • contribs) 02:57, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Maybe that is the issue bro, but 10% still isn't popular. Like I said, 15% of Saudi Arabia is Shi'a but no one says Shi'a Islam is popular in Saudi Arabia, you know what I'm saying? Popular is a very loose and dangerous word. According to Wikipedia, it can be classified as a weasel word. --Enzuru 03:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

That said there are "conservative muslims" everywhere, and if that is also part of what salafi means then salafism is found in different parts of the world, since in different parts of the muslim world there are some that are more conservative the the mainstream.

Salafism or Wahhabism simply isn't conservative Islam. If Salafism and Wahhabism didn't exist this article wouldn't, the fact is that the media says it exists, thousands of books say it exists, and there are even websites for Salafis at least like Salafi Publications. It may just a boogeyman, but that still is existence, afterall, even the article on Boogyman exists anyway. --Enzuru 01:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Please quote where i said salafis don't exist !! Please don't turn me into a fanatic because i disagree with you. Please you tell me if you are convinced wahhabism exists why did you cll it a boogeyman and say it didn;t exist ?? :-) Salafism is the political and legal manifestation of a "very conservative way of life" in modern states based on the teachings of the quran the sunnah and the understanding of islam by the salaf.

I was not saying you said Salafism doesn't exist, I was using an inclusive phrase. However, I don't believe Wahhabism exists, I believe it is a myth made by the media and other sources, so I don't know why you're saying I believe it exists. I am not turning you into a fanatic, now please, don't make false accusations. I have been respectful to you, now please be respectful of me. And yes, Salafism says it is what you described, that has nothing to do with our argument. --Enzuru 02:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

You are obviously not a salafist, i certainly am not. But they do exist everywhere. In India, certainly in Pakistan, Indonesia, Kuwait, Egypt, Bosnia etc...

I don't think its fair to label some countries with this "scary word" and not others...Kuwait is very different then Saudi Arabia, the UAE is modernising very differently then Kuwait, many people in the "gulf region" come from different parts of the middle-east region (even central asia and the indian subcontinent). Attributing one attitude, one culture to a group that is not only diverse ethnically, but culturally diverse within the same ethnicities is wrong.

I am a Shi'a, and yes, they exist everywhere. Shi'a Islam exists in Saudi Arabia, at around 15% of the population, does that make it popular? No. That is what your edit says. Change the terminology and I have no issue. --Enzuru 02:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

If there are shia in Saudi Arabia then there are shia in Saudi Arabia... If there are salafis in Pakistan then there are salafis in Pakistan. If their numbers are increasing (they being wahhabis and/or salafis) then it is becoming more popular. Had Iran not been shiite (shiites as we know have a problem with some of the salaf) then it would have most probably been described as salafist state... Maybe even wahhabi :-)

Its a simplification, meaning its to simple, vague and overall "somewhat untrue".

Okay, that's fine. Now tell me, how should we fix this issue? You haven't told us what to do yet, that is the only way things will get done brother. --

Enzuru 01:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonassra (talk • contribs) 01:25, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Very Very simple we remove all that is not referenced.

That isn't the exact way we go about it, we don't remove everything, but we do remove oustanding statements with little to no credibility. Anyway, it is Ramadan, and Muslims are not allowed to fight especially during Ramadan. Please, let's make this a debate, not a fight. I feel you have been rude to me and expect an apology, just like I apologize and apologized again if I came off as rude to you. --Enzuru 02:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

And i am guessing "oustanding statements with little to no credibility" are statements that don't further your interests... Its ok we're all human, the same goes for me.

The problem my friend is that in the context of what is true and correct this whole article is outstanding with little or no credibility...But i have to insist we remove it all. All those serious and invested enough can find references to all their pre-held beliefs. Besides it will only increase the quality of the this eternally non-substantive article.

I didn't feel like we were fighting :-) especially not after you apologised... but since we have such different characters its only fair that i apologise to you to.

I also would like to wish you a happy ramadan and eid in advance. I am not going to reply to the rest of your comments since i need to sleep now. Hoping to see you soon.

regards, Bonassra

The Prophetic Core of truth about Osama bin Laden

If one looks at the hadith of Muhammed and St. Paul of the Light of the Damascus it is obvious that Osama bin Laden is the "Ad-Dajjal: the false Mahdi of Islam. That he is Sunni is no surprise; but it is his descent from the "one-eyed" one that should raise the attention of the sufis and the righteous scholars of Allah. The heaviest authority on the one-eyed or "evil one" Muhammed saw in his vision of the Ad-Dajjal that Gabriel showed him is written in the hadith in which Muhammed described one characteristic by which the "Ad-Dajjal" would be known: he would offer men "Jannat" or "Heaven"; but in reality would deliver them into "Jahannah/ ("Gehenna: the dung heap"). This sounds very much like Osama bin Laden's offers of virgins to those who die for him as the payment of the holy warrior as of the 7th heaven. But the hadith or "saying" of Muhammed further states that the Ad-Dajjal or Antichrist will try to put his enemies in the camp of "Satan" or even "Satan the Devil" as of "Jahannah": but they are actually the "peacemakers" that Lord Jesus and Muhammed said would be called "the children of the Most High". It is these who Muhammed said would be called "his people: the People of Salvation". Now we have arrived at the lesson of Fatimah; for every Jew Christian or Muslim who die for peace: but will not kill for it; for they know who "lives by the sword shall die by the sword".

Let us now compare what St. Paul wrote about Osama bin Laden as the Antichrist; If one reads Thessalonians II 2: 3-4 one will get what I call a "shock" of recognition. Here is the quote in full after St. Paul discusses the day of Christ to come;

"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the House of God, showing himself that he is God."

While some might be amused by such recondrite blasphemy it certainly seems that Osama bin Laden has judged the West and, apparently with Allah's help, has carried out his judgment on the "great Satan" of the corrupt West as if he were, indeed; "God". By sitting on the throne of Mecca spiritually it is Osama who has done more than just begun World War III; he has made sure that it will be the last War; the Holy War; the showdown between what radical Islam calls "the people of Salvation" and the fallen West. While some might smile at such antics with the power the west possesses in it's arsenal we might look again at the prophetic core of belief that is driving the forces intent on their coming Armegeddeon; but the fundamentalism of the Sunni against the Shi'a has been the retrograde development is Islam that has brought the House of saud to it's moral destruction. And it is their embrace of the false jihadis that has raised up the "Judas of Islam"; the "fatted calf" whose death from the Zulfiqar is more about the death from his "exposure" to the Word of God; but the sword in the west has another name: Excalibur. Unicorn144 (talk) 12:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Put your posts at the end of the talk page. No original research allowed. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)