Manneken Pis

Overhaul

Time for this article to get an overhaul. As always, if suddenly something is broken, it was me :-) -- ReyBrujo 17:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

How long you think this one will take? Sturm lived a considerably shorter life than Goldmoon, right?DoomsDay349 22:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I think it should take me until this Friday, maybe Saturday. On weekends I am much more active than on week days. I remember reading at least two different short stories about Sturm, will have to search for them. And I must review Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Dragons of Winter Night, The Soulforge, The Companions, Second Generation, Dragons of Summer Flame and The Oath and the Measure. And I must buy Darkness & Light, which I lost. So, it will be some reading. -- ReyBrujo 22:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

First impression

After reviewing the article, it seems the only section that may stay after the overhaul is Sturm's Sword, although with some changes. All others will be heavily shortened. -- ReyBrujo 03:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, Steel is portrayed as following the Oath and the Measure even though he is technically in the wrong army. Wouldn't that enable him to use the swords "does not break unless wielder breaks" power with no problems, therefore strengthening that aspect fo the swords abilities? This is in reaction to "This belief is not likely though, due to the fact that a Knight of Takhisis, Steel Brightblade, uses his fathers (Sturm Brightblade, mother Kitara Uth Matar) sword. The Brightblade, in the Chaos war." I think it is very likely, and perhapst the strongest portrayal of Steel's inner beliefs. -- StormSylver 11:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I just researched some of the bibliography I will be using, putting it here so that I can remember later, as I won't work on this article in just one day. THERE ARE SPOILERS HERE:

• Love and War, short story The Exiles (information about his exile)
• The Soulforge (information about childhood)
• The Companions (first quest with the Heroes)
• The Oath and the Measure (information about his father)
• Darkness & Light (relationship with Kitiara)
• Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home (general information about Sturm)
• Dragons of Autumn Twilight (meeting with friends)
• Dragons of Winter Night (knighted, death)
• Second Generation (information about Steel)
• Dragons of Summer Flame (influence on Steel)
• Dragons of a Lost Star (influence on Laurana)

I am lacking Darkness & Light, will see if I can get a copy soon. The War of the Lance sourcebook will arrive shortly, so I may be able to give some RPG information about him as well. If I am missing one, please tell me. -- ReyBrujo 04:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Interview

In this interview, Margaret states that the death of Sturm was one of the hardest to write:

ST: Are there any scenes in your books that stand out in your mind as ones that were especially hard to write?
MW: The death of Sturm. I was crying so hard I couldn't see the computer screen and I had to quit writing.

However, I am not sure this is a reliable source enough to include as a reference. -- ReyBrujo 22:28, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

What sort of site is it? I looked at the page but can't quite determine what the site... is, exactly. Also, I personally don't think the qoute is all that necassary. It doesn't really describe Sturm, which is the article, after all. Course, I might be missing something. Is there any reason in particular why you wanted this in the article? DoomsDay349 03:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure about the site quality, that is why I haven't inserted the quote in the article. As for the reason, it is worth adding a referenced note that one of her hardest moments was writing about Sturm's death, even though she already knew Sturm was going to die soon. This could be complemented with an Annotated Chronicles quote, where Margaret states one of her favorite moments is when Sturm refuses to run away at the Inn of the Last Home. -- ReyBrujo 03:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Use the Annotated Chronicles qoute, but I'd leave out the site qoute. DoomsDay349 00:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Images

I am considering some images for the article. This one (context) would be for the infobox, this one (context) can be also used in Tanis and Goldmoon, and of course, this one (context), which can be used in Laurana article later. What do you think? -- ReyBrujo 23:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I think they all would improve the page's look, good pictures as well. And I like the fact they can be used in multiple pages. DoomsDay349 03:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

They're all really good, but I would strongly recommend the last one on the sturm page to illustrate his death, as well as on the laurana page. ddcc 03:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Instead of the one I suggested here for the infobox, I used Image:SturmAndFlint.jpg, as the other was a cropped version of this one, and this one can be used in Flint's article as well. I will finish adding some more contents to the article, and then add the images (as I said, images can wait until the article is finished, there is no need to rush). -- ReyBrujo 03:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

So...Is It Done?

Is the overhaul on this page complete? I'm just curious to know what your next focus is gonna be. DoomsDay349 00:53, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Wish it were :) I am reading War of the Lance and Dragonlance Campaign Setting sourcebooks for more RPG information about Sturm, and the Annotated Chronicles to get some comments from the authors about the character. It will take maybe another week to finish. Afterwards, I am not sure. I do not want to pick Raistlin nor Tasslehoff because fans are used to the current layout and may shock them to find such a different article. Maybe Steel Brightblade, which is a rather small article, or Laurana, which I had wanted to modify for some long time already. -- ReyBrujo 01:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

A few quick questions- do you actually re-read all those books? Do you write at all from memory? DoomsDay349 01:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I remember most of the books I have read, at least I am able to say in which book something happened (even if it takes me an hour or so to think). I can use Google to get a hint as for where something happened. Right now I am not reading Annotated, as I have already read the original Chronicles, but instead I read the author comments on the margins, which since there are about one per page, makes reading much faster. Sourcebooks are a different thing, I need to read whole sections to understand them. The only books I would consider reading again are the Kingpriest and the Ergoth trilogies, and Spirit of the Wind. -- ReyBrujo 02:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I was just curious, because you have such a long list of books above on this page that I wondered how you could even do this much in a month. Thanks. DoomsDay349 16:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

:) I have read around 65 books in the last 18 months, and am reading now at around one every two weeks. Luckily I can recall enough to quickly point in which book something happened, that saves me quite a lot of time! -- ReyBrujo 17:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sturm and Alhana

There was a little thing between Alhana and Sturm, wasn't there? He was her real, true love, right? Phoenix frou 18:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Alhana was caught up in the moment and attracted to Sturm for his chivalry and bravery. She gave him the starjewel, and then they were seperated and never met again. Using the term "real, true love" is a bit of an exaggeration, considering their relationship never truly existed. In my opinion, it is comparable to the teenage love of the mid-nighties, wherein the man would give his girlfriend a class ring or a jacket (except, in reverse order). DoomsDay349 02:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, touche. You're totally right on that. But still I always thought those two crazy kids stood out as it was mentioned that her heart belonged to a dead guy when she married that elf guy. (It's been years since I have read that one, be easy on me, baby.)Phoenix frou 04:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC) ;)

Citation Help

Wikipedia shows that you need a citation for the following: "Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman had decided, since the conception of the Chronicles Trilogy, that Sturm's appearances would end before any of the other characters." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Phoenix frou (talk • contribs) 21:23, June 27, 2006.

You can find the source of that information in the final pages of "Test of the Twins" where the authors are saying their farewells to the readers. Paraphrasing here, they talk about the backlash they received from readers for killing off Sturm, as though they'd done it arbitrarily. The authors assure the readers that the idea of killing Sturm was already set in motion even as they began to write the first book. --Soulforge19 10:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I have added the reference to that part, and the quote from the authors. -- ReyBrujo 19:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Improvement

In order to improve it, would changing it into chronological order help? Ddcc 03:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I was told at Talk:Goldmoon that "real life" chronology is usually more important than "fantasy" chronology. In other words, writing about how the different authors developed the character, what can be said between the previous author and the new one, etc, and not just put the life of the character. However, both approach are just as good as long as it is remarked when each novel was published. -- ReyBrujo 03:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm working on it over at User:Ddcc/Sandbox Ddcc 15:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It might take a while, sinc I'm going to reread the chronicles trilogy to get an idea on how to write it. Ddcc 17:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that you should work in the article directly, not in a sandbox, because when you finish your version, you would slap the new version over the old one, and all the modifications that were done from the old to the new version would be lost. Also, you are effectively preventing users from working in the article, as few check Talk pages when correcting typos or grammar in the article. -- ReyBrujo 18:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Ddcc 15:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Looking to bump it to GA

I know Rey's done a lot of work here, but I want to polish it off with a GA. Using Goldmoon as an example, I'm wondering about the basic outline for it. Tell me if it all looks right to you. (When I list the novels, it means the information contained within.

Character Background

• Info from Leaves From the Inn of the Last Home.
• "The Exiles", Love and War.
• The Soulforge
• The Oath and the Measure
• The Companions
• Darkness and Light

Development Chronicles Trilogy. Dragons of the Dwarven Depths (possibly Highlord Skies when it is out) Influence on Steel (Second Generation and Summer Flame)

Thanks. DoomsDay349 01:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Dispute about Reliable Secondary Sources

{{RFCmedia}} This article has no reliable secondary sources to demonstrate notability. All of the references are primary sources, as they come from the publisher or authors of the source materials. This is disputed by ReyBrujo who has removed the Notability template, who denies that this article has notabilty issues (see his talk page). I would like the notability template restored unitl this issue can be addressed. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The issue i think is that the article is wholely written in world and has no reference to real world context. Regardless, if there is a notability dispute, which there clearly is, then the tag is appropriate to inform readers/editors about it and how they can contribute. There is no justification for removing it unless the article has been significantly changed. --neonwhite user page talk 20:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I can see some discussion of authorial intent for the character and inspiration for his story arc, so we're not talking of something that's entirely in-universe or in violation of WP:PLOT. But the current lack of secondary sourcing is certainly an issue. While the Dragonlance series can certainly claim notability, it's less than clear that all recurring characters carry that notability separately. I don't think it's unreasonable to have the notability template in place for the time being. --Sturm 14:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This character is notable because he was a main character along with the rest in several and the main character along with 1 or 2 others in a few other books in a major fantasy novel series. He was also rather popular amongst the fans I understand with alot of complaints when he died. So they replaced him with his son and helped his son out with a ghost of Sturm in more novels, he seems to be as notable as Obi Wan Kenobi was before the prequals with Ewan MacGregor came out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 13:20, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Gavin's talk page is blocked to me because I lack a real name so I'll write here and hope he reads it. Alright, so no reliable secondary source for its notability, apparently theres no reliable reviews or other source of notability for the books outside of fansites and Dragon magazine, which are hardly objective. I'm looking for some on google right now and all I see is geocity fansites unofficial homepages, official Wizards of the Coast stuff, forums, and such things that I wouldn't use for a source, not that I source things as much as delete nonsense these days. Personally, I wasn't expected to find too much, its a fantasy novel series so it doesn't grace the major reviews of people who read Blake or Shakespeare or Tom Clancy or whatever, although a few of them did get that New York Post thing. It is also not a major motion picture, or at least yet, in a couple of months or a year or something I understand yes it will be, but then the notability of the novels will still be questionable. It isn't old enough to have become a real classic, most people who read it as kids are like 24 now, infact I saw a couple of those on google a moment ago. It is popular though, it started out as some articles in an issue of Dragon and evolved into a trilogy of novels, that were so popular every main character and some secondary characters got their own novels in a couple of new series and a couple more trilogies, and a few short story collections. I was gonna guess at somewhere around 50 novels in the series all told, but the List of Dragonlance Novels has it much closer to 200, surely a novel series that has nearly or over (I stopped counting around 150) 200 novels is notable, especially when several specific trilogies have been very popular. And reading Margaret's page I see she and Tracy got into the Origins Hall of Fame in 2002 because "one game line turned literary sensation: Dragonlance", although I'm sure some of their other work didn't hurt. I'm pretty sure Origins is objective, I doubt its owned by Wizards or anyone like that, they seem to fairly give out awards for the different RPGs. So if none of that fits the criteria, then maybe the criteria should be expanded, something like "A series of novels popular enough to produce over 50 novels in the series" or something. And the original research stuff is complete garbage, it was up on Caramon for stuff like "he was in the dream of Laraloc with the other heroes", thats comparable to putting up original research for saying "Luke went to Dagobah to find Yoda" in the Empire Stikes Back, its straight forward and a short description of what did happen according to the primary source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 02:34, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I think what you are saying is that Dragonlance books are notable, which for argument's sake lets agree that they are. However, this article is about a fictional character who features in those books, and the notability of this character has proven independently of the books to justify the existence of this article - see WP:NOTINHERITED. I am not proposing that this article be deleted or be merged with the article Dragonlance, but what I am saying is that the cleanup template has been put there for the purpose of attracting reliable secondary sources that will provide evidence of notability of Sturm Brightblade outside the Dragonlance book series. If you remove the templates, you are effectively stonewalling this process. I ask that the template remain until such time reliable secondary sources citing real-world content which is non-trivial be found for this article. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)