Talk:Discovery Institute

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The lead

The lead of this article is by no means awful, but it's a bit short and low in content, and the lead sentence, indeed, even the second sentence, say very little of importance. I don't want to make unilateral changes, but what if we started off something like "The Discovery Institute is a think tank best known for its advocacy of intelligent design and its Teach the Controversy campaign to get anti-evolution sentiments taught in schools." Adam Cuerden ^talk 11:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a good idea, Adam. Mr Christopher 19:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I hope it does not start some sort of war like at Intelligent design. But I like Adam's suggestion. Orangemarlin 14:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Dodgy bits

"working with Douglas Axe, author of a number of pro-intelligent design articles"

Axe has published several papers that can be read as criticisms of the capabilities of evolution, but I don't know of any articles by Axe that can be described as "pro-intelligent design". I notice that this doesn't come with a reference.

Let me make that explicit: the claim that Axe has published even one "pro-intelligent design article" is unverifiable and doesn't belong in the article until such time as a verifiable source is given. --Wesley R. Elsberry 15:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

"3. Bill Dembski's grant was not for the book 'No Free Lunch.' Dembski was given funds to write another book on Orthodox Theology, which was not on ID, however he has never written the book."

Dembski produced documentation that Templeton's funding was for a book on topics discussed within "No Free Lunch". I think that Templeton is too eager to distance themselves from the rotting corpse of "intelligent design" creationism, and is overlooking their former support for IDC advocates and projects. There should be some notice of this in the article rather than leaving the Templeton quote as the final word on the topic; it is apparent that Templeton's criticism of the DI is not wholly accurate, apparently due to Templeton wishing to appear less entangled with the DI and the IDC movement than was actually the case.

"A subsequent study performed by Wesley Elsberry, author of a text comparison program approved for use and considered authoritative in Federal court, on the section of the plaintiffs proposed findings of fact regarding whether ID is science with the section of the ruling on the same subject indicated that Judge Jones actually only incorporated 35% of the findings of fact and conclusions of law that the plaintiffs proposed that he incorporate, not the 90.9% the Discovery Institute claimed."

There are several numbers that I've produced in analysis, and the sentence above confuses a couple of them. The Discovery Institute's number of 90.9% concerned only a single section of Judge Jones's decision, so the 35% number and the 90.9% number are not directly comparable, as the sentence in the article implies. The DI claims that 90.9% is the proportion of Judge Jones's text in the section about whether ID is science that is due to the plaintiffs's proposed findings of fact; the relevant number to compare to that from what I've done is 66%: I found that 66% of that section in Judge Jones decision was taken from the plaintiffs's proposed findings of fact. That is a substantially different number from what the DI says, though it isn't as different as the 35% mentioned in the current sentence.

There's another relevant number that I found that annoys the DI mightily. You see, one can also pose a different question: How much of the plaintiffs's proposed findings of fact concerning the section on whether ID is science did Judge Jones use in his decision? It turns out that Judge Jones only used 48% of the text produced by the plaintiffs's on that topic, meaning that Judge Jones rejected about half of what the plaintiffs proposed in that particular section (as opposed to the 65% overall rejection proportion). This is fundamentally at odds with the DI characterization of Judge Jones as having expended no effort of his own and credulously adopting the plaintiffs's text wholesale; it is apparent that while Judge Jones obviously thought the plaintiffs generally had good arguments, he did make significant decisions about which parts of their argumentation to adopt and which to reject.

I have some notes about my analyses here, along with the text files I used and the full set of matches found. Anyone can, with a bit of effort, check my work for accuracy; everything needed to do so is provided. Now, obviously, what I have done is original research. On the other hand, the numbers I've presented are verifiable. How the editors want to handle the result I will leave up to them. I'll suggest a revision of the current sentence:

"A subsequent study performed by Wesley Elsberry, author of a text comparison program approved for use and considered authoritative in Federal court, on the section of the plaintiffs proposed findings of fact regarding whether ID is science with the section of the ruling on the same subject indicated that Judge Jones actually only incorporated 35% of the complete findings of fact and conclusions of law that the plaintiffs proposed that he incorporate, and only 66% of the section the DI criticized in particular, not the 90.9% the Discovery Institute claimed was copied in that section."

I think that clarifies what was there. I think it would be useful to include somehow the information about how picky Judge Jones was in adopting the plaintiffs's proposed findings of fact in the section on whether ID is science, too. --Wesley R. Elsberry 06:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Wes, since you're better versed on the specifics here I for one will defer to you and I suggest you make the changes yourself since they are rather complex yet nuanced. Odd nature 23:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure that you want the DI ranting about how they can't touch their article, but I can? I think that it may be better for me to convince the regular editors here concerning points and have them make the changes as they see fit. --Wesley R. Elsberry 14:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Wesley is right - there are a number of problems that need to be addressed, but it's better if he isn't the one to fix them. In addition to the claim that Axe has published pro-ID papers (which, obviously, he has not), there is the assertion that the Biologics Institute is conducting ID research. I am unaware of any such research - either published or presented as a talk - so to say that they are conducting research is like all the other claims over the past 20 years that there is research going on into ID. If someone figured out how to do research into ID, it would make a great publication - it would be the first ID-related science. Guettarda 15:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Could somebody please change at least the bit about the text analysis? As it stands, the article is comparing two not-completely-comparable numbers. --Wesley R. Elsberry 16:19, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I see that the numbers were updated. Thanks. --Wesley R. Elsberry 11:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

intro sentence

It seems obvious to me that there should be some discussion about the proper lead sentence of the article. The recent reversions back and forth, with no justification save for brief edit summary, doesn't cut it.

For example, the latest reversion to "get creationist beliefs taught" claims that a "new citation supports" the reversion. I checked all the footnoted citations, and found nothing of the sort. This is not the sort of discussion to be had by reversions and edit summary's.

Please discuss this edit and justify the change. Nothing from the Discovery Institute claims that they want to get creationism taught, quite to the contrary, they expressly deny that. Obviously, the Discovery Institute doesn't get be the final arbiter, but when the citations are far from clear, this edit needs to be justified. This post is to start a real wiki discussion.Veritasjohn 15:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't see a need for it. All of the sources provided show that the DI claims it does not promote the teaching of creationism while doing just that. The current intro is accurate and supported. BTW, wasn't it found here that you were affiliate with the DI in some way? Odd nature 15:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment. There's no need for ad hominem attacks, please. Regardless of Veritasjohn's affiliation, he isn't engaging in a revert-war. He is posing a simple question on the talk page. BTW: I didn't find any evidence that he is affiliated with the DI, although there is Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Truthologist this allegation implicating him in a group of DI shills who joined Wikipedia at around the same time. Silly rabbit 16:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

VeritasJohn comment There was a chekcuser run, and some implications that I was somehow involved with DI. However, I rather forcefully challenged those acusations, and as I remember the main editor making the inquiry backed down, and to the best of my Wiki memory, has never directly claimed that I am somehow affiliated. Veritasjohn 20:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Reply. The first reference makes a strong case that this is precisely what the DI is doing. Many of the quotes cited in this reference are drawn from statements various prominent institute members have made over the years, and are quite unambiguously creationist. As Odd nature says, although the DI claims not to be creationist, it is. The historical genesis, legal actions, and political leanings of this organization reveal it to be the "new face" of creationism: If it walks like a duck... Silly rabbit 16:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the reverted-to version of "get creationist beliefs taught" is more accurate and more substantiatable than the reverted-from "raise awareness of problems in evolutionary theory." That ID is Creationism is supported both by legal opinions and scholarly research. DI members (including DI VP Stephen Meyer) are on record as having explicitly advocated teaching ID. On the other hand there is no evidence that the DI has genuinely ""raise[d] awareness of problems in evolutionary theory" -- or that there are any genuine "problems" to raise. Hrafn42 17:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

To state it as creationist as fact in the lead when there is a different POV (as stated by silly rabbit) without attributing the statement is violation of WP:NPOV Wikipedia policy. It should be reworded. Morphh ^(talk) 15:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Morphh: Read WP:Undue Weight. The article is not obligated to give any weight to the DI's claims. Given that ID was crafted to avoid constitutional problems of teaching Creationism after Edwards v. Aguillard, of course the DI will deny that it is Creationism. This denial is meaningless.

I would also direct you to WP:SOURCE#Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves -- the DI's claim that ID is not Creationism is both contentious and self-serving. Hrafn42 16:15, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a lot of open dispute about whether Intelligent Design is creationism. This is precisely the type of continuous issue that lends itself to a lot of WP:NPOV assertions. I started this discussion precisely because, as a descriptive matter of verifiable fact, I think the current lead can be improved on. I am not advocated a reversion to the previous version, which also has problems.

A big problem here is the attempt to totally discredit DI as a source for the verifiable statement that the intelligent design advocated by DI is not creationism. One could likewise argue that Barbara Forrest's work is a POV motivated work, and should not be taken as credible. Simple reality is that many parties in this discussion disagree about the proposition that "DI advocates creationism." Look, self-admitted creationists like the Institute for Creation Research literally attack "intelligent design" and deny that creationism = intelligent design. Some leading intelligent design advocates, in their personal capacity, argue extensively that intelligent design is not creationism. Who knows who is "right" in this dispute. However, I think there is a much more serious dispute then that acknowleded by merely sting citing five sources and claiming as "verifiable" that DI advocates creationism. That is quite odd, considering the extensive sources from Discovery and other people from their view that they do not advocate creationism.

The way this is going down now, it looks a lot like political opponents of an organization are allowed to define their opponent in unflattering light, and that will go down as verifiable wiki fact? Surely Wikipedia should be more accurate and objective than this. In a political setting, if someone accuses Bill Clinton of being a draft dodger, and he denies, are you saying that his denial is "self serving" and we should simply ignore it and allow the POV label to stick in his lead sentence( this is a though experiment, I've not looked at the Wiki for Clinton)

Furthermore, As far as I am aware, Wiki is about verifiable articles, not merely counting "sources." minority viewpoints will always have numerically less sources.

There are many serious sources that explain the religious nature of creationism. While people dispute the details, it should not be declared by fiat in a lead sentence. Veritasjohn 20:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Too late, that cat has been out of the bag for a very long time now and you'll never get it back in. The facts are that it's well documented that the Discovery Institute promotes the false claim that a lot of dispute about whether Intelligent Design is creationism, but in fact there isn't. Not since Dover. This is a dead issue, and no amount of spin from the Discovery Institute will change that. Here's some homework for you: [1]Odd nature 21:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I would also point out that historian of science Ronald Numbers, who is generally not considered to be partisan, included a chapter on ID in the latest edition of his book The Creationists. Additionally, Judge Jones was unequivocal on the subject: "The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory." This sort of scholarly and legal opinion is why the Creationism article has ID listed among the "types of creationism" -- to try to pretend otherwise here would be an illegitimate POV-fork. Hrafn42 03:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

This thread is similar to the one ongoing at Intelligent design and covers about the same thing, so I'm not going to repeat arguments. "creationist beliefs" used here seems to differ greatly from traditional creationist beliefs. It would seem clearer and more accurate to say religous beliefs, belief in God, or just God. Morphh ^(talk) 14:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The trouble is Morphh that you seem to have little understanding of the range of "creationist beliefs." ID is very similar to its immediate antecedent, Progressive creationism. Hrafn42 15:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Berlinski

$20 says 90.37.98.132 (talk · contribs) is DI Fellow David Berlinski. Odd nature 15:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. IP tracks to France. He still there? Adam Cuerden ^talk 18:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Casey Luskin

I guess Luskin went to law school. I am not sure he graduated or was admitted to the bar anywhere to practice law. I have scanned his "rebuttal". Most of it is just attacking bloggers of one sort or another. I guess it might have value, but not introduced as a naked sentence hanging out at the end of a paragraph. I note that it is contrary to many other expert lawyer opinions I have read. This business about copying the text provided to the judge by the lawyers on both sides is standard pratice, I understand, and is quite commonplace. Where is the evidence to the contrary? Unless we have some balancing material, I start to wonder if the Luskin rebuttal inclusion is not only bad English, but violates POV as well. Comments?--Filll 13:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

He has a law degree from the University of San Diego, and calls himself an attorney, though I've yet to see any evidence that he's passed the bar or practised as an attorney anywhere. As far as I can tell, he went straight from university to "Program Officer in Public Policy & Legal Affairs" at the DI, a job that seems to entirely consist of putting out very badly-constructed spin. I don't see how his viewpoint, which is rejected by both the academic legal community and what little of the popular press even noticed their 'study', can pass muster under WP:UNDUE. Hrafn42 14:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Considering the Timothy Sandefur and Ed Brayton links in this section (footnote 81, 85), I fail to see why citing Luskin's article is improper. This is a contentious issue, much like politics, and just as one could say that Luskin has a "viewpiont" so too do Brayton and Sandefur.

As to Hrafn42 - your comment just brandishes WP:UNDUE without really analyzing the citation. Your assertion that Luskin hasn't passed the bar is easily belied by looking at his legal work at DI, including filing amicus briefs with his attorney license #. Also - Brayton is not a lawyer. I think he has an interesting viewpoint, but nobody is requiring that only lawyers be cited here. You say his viewpoint has been rejected by "academic legal community" but that is unfounded (on this particular issue). Look, citing Luskin on many issues of this page would seem to be questionable, but his paper responding to criticism of the Kitzmiller study is a valid viewpoint, and adds to the informative quality of the article. It is verifiable, not just blog chatter. As far as I can tell, there is no "academic legal community" commentary on this point. citation?

I think that one link to Luskin does not give undue influence, especially considering the amount of space given to criticizing the original DI study. Unlike the critics of the study, the current wiki only mentions that Luskin has a response, it does not explain (repeat) his arguments. If anything, the undue influence would go the other way (note: I'm not claiming the section violates WP).Veritasjohn 14:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Describing his nonsense as a "rebuttal" certainly violates undue weight. If we're to include it, in order to satisfy npov we will have to make it clear that outside of the ID movement, it is not regarded as anything approaching a sound response. ornis (t) 14:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello DB. You seem to be missing the point of undue weight. It calls for opinions to be presented in the proportion to which they are held. And Luskin's, yours, and the rest of your crew at the DI are in a tiny minority on the topic of the scientific explanation for the origin of life, and any sub-arguments there of. Odd nature 17:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Who is DB? If the "your crew at DI" refers to me then this comment is just mistaken name-calling. Every time I try to start discussion that is anything but criticism of DI I am immediately impugned as being part of the DI. This is false, there is no evidence and I do not appreciate being constantly categorized and discounted. I am not a single-page editor, and I always take care to discuss my ideas of improving the DI Wiki article. When I edit the article, it is only after discussion. If I am mistaken and Odd Nature's comment doesn't refer to me, then advance apologies.Veritasjohn 18:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me the height of hypocrisy for the Discovery Institute to accuse Judge Jones of copying 90 percent of one section of his opinion (just 16 percent of its total length) from the proposed findings of fact by the plaintiff's lawyers, when the DI itself tried to palm off as 'original' work a law review article [submitted to Montana Law Review] that was copied 95 percent from the authors' own book {Traipsing Into Evolution]. Concealing this fact from the law review editors, until I discovered and documented this effort, seriously undercuts the credibility of the DI on this or any other issue.

-- Peter H. Irons

I have seen no evidence that he has done legitimate "legal work at DI", nor could I (after a quick search) find any evidence that he's submitted amicus curiae briefs. Can anybody provide links? Hrafn42 14:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

This is apparently not the only Luskin "rebuttal". I found at least one other as well. If we are going to include this, I am not sure it belongs in this article, but maybe as a separate section in the Kitzmiller v. Dover article, with some link here to that article or section of that article. If we want to avoid WP:UNDUE, this has to be done carefully, with links and cites from a variety of sources, not just blogs. Having looked at Luskin's document, it is not particularly scholarly and does not look much like a formal legal opinion to me, but more like an attack piece by a PR person. If we do this, we will do this right, and not just as a dangling naked sentence. --Filll 14:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

response to Fill As some others in this discussion indicate, I think there is no problem citing Luskin's rebuttal article, especially given the nature of the Brayton and Sandefur blog criticism. WP:UNDUE does not call for a double-standard. This whole criticism of the ID study section is a bunch of non-scholarly published works. Nobody's writing a book or law review article about the dispute. Thus, the section quotes many different blogs. I just want to point out that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Your personal opinion about Luskin's rebuttal is a valid viewpoint, and one that is amply represented in the many cited criticism of the study. I agree in part, I would prefer, as I think Wiki-policy supports, that no blog articles be cited, but for much of this article, blogs are the only verifiable source available. Veritasjohn 16:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Just mention that the DI has responded to the debunking of their smear campaign and offer one or two summary quotes from their response and be done with it. That Luskin wrote it is a non-issue since he's not particularly notable. Odd nature 17:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea, and I hope could gain consensus and be implemented. Luskin is a non-issue, and the response does deserve mention. I'll see if I can figure out a good summary quote and make a suggestion.Veritasjohn 02:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The general principle makes sense. Now just need to find an acceptable way of reporting report of what was said. Guettarda 03:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I propose the following sentence to be added at the end of the section:

The Discovery Institute issued a rebuttal to criticism of the study, arguing that case law supports the policy that “the verbatim or near verbatim adoption of a party's findings of facts is disapproved by courts” even if it is not prohibited.

This addition would provide information that (1) DI has a response to criticism (2) a summary quote of the rebuttal. Just as the authors of the criticism (Sandefur, Brayton, etc.) are not specifically named in the text, the DI rebuttal author, Luskin, is not named. Are there problems with this proposal? Veritasjohn 16:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with that proposed addition. The problem is, if we really investigate this and write a proper description (possibly in a more appropriate article like the article about the court decision and lawsuit Kitzmiller v. Dover), I suspect it will reflect VERY negatively on the Discovery Institute. I know that Discovery Institute and intelligent design supporters want to spin it a certain way, but pursuing this avenue will likely backfire.--Filll 17:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

<Comments from sock puppet of indef banned user avoiding ban removed> FeloniousMonk 06:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm optimistic that we can come to consensus on a brief summary of Luskin's rebuttal. There are evidently agreeable summaries of the three cited criticism blogs. If, after more discussion, this proves impossible perhaps we could try a different tact. However, when there is fairly extensive discussion and summation of the critics, I fail to see how one sentence, as I proposed, clutters things. Veritasjohn 19:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

There is already too much on this topic in this article, in my opinion. I would cut it back. And I would place an expanded section on this topic, if it is of such interest, in the Kitzmiller v. Dover article. I have found about 10 or more Discovery Institute and intelligent design supporters that have published similar kinds of attacks on the Jones decision. And there are some other articles that describe why these attacks are ill-founded. And then numerous DI and ID responses rebutting these articles. And then there are neutral articles that describe the situation from a neutral outside viewpoint. To really investigate this carefully would take much more space than is appropriate in this article. This article is about the DI, after all, and not about the trial, and not about Judge Jones etc. And not about common Judicial practice. This is just ludicrous to consider for this article, frankly. --Filll 18:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

FrillYour objection to my proposed language is a bit unclear. You make comments about how this would need to be done properly, would reflect badly on DI, etc, which I simply fail to follow. What specifically was objectionable about my proposal? Second, you seem to suggest cutting back the whole criticism section. Perhaps that would be a good idea; however, right now, everyone seems intent on keeping the paragraph in as criticism of DI (not for the relevance to Kitzmiller). If we are going to leave the article & criticism, then a simple citation to the DI rebuttal seems necessary.

Guettarda and Odd nature what are you thoughts about the proposal? I tried to provide a simply one sentence notice of the rebuttal with a summary quote.

The proposal seems to follow the style and treatment of the criticism of the original DI article. Quotes and explanation were used. When there is a lengthy paragraph explaining criticism of the original article from at least three sources I fail to see how my suggestion is "ludicrous" -- so long as the criticism paragraph remains as is. Veritasjohn 19:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I personally think that this section is a bit out of place in the Discovery Institute article. I would restructute ir slighlty, after writing a longer section and putting it in another article. I would include MUCH more information about this. On all sides. And then I would rewrite this little section here to make it just an introduction to the much longer and more complete article elsewhere. And veritasjohn, you are giving yourself away by your edits. Don't think I don't know who you are.--Filll 19:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

response to continued personal harassment: "And veritasjohn, you are giving yourself away by your edits. Don't think I don't know who you are." (Filll). I continue to take offense to this type of unfounded personal attack. I act as an honest, diligent member of the Wiki community. (check my user contrib) Filll - I have no idea who you are, and your insinuation about me is frankly offensive. Multiple times in the past, people have accused me of somehow being an employee of DI. I have repeatedly denied this accusation, and even FeloniousMonk's check-user on my account yielded nothing. (despite his coy WP:Beans position). Filll - if you have a real problem with my comment or editing, then deal with it according to Wiki policy, if this form of unfounded personal attack continues, I will pursue my own remedy according to Wiki policy. I don't mean to belabor the point, but I'm tired of the constant harassment that is based on nothing other than my differing editing preferences for the DI article. On this new discussion page alone there are now three separate harassing comments made against me. Veritasjohn 20:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

response to disagreement with proposed language: I do not believe this single-DI "study" and the resulting back-and-forth really needs a longer section anywhere on wikipedia. If you think so, feel free to write a longer-version and place it appropriately. Right now, the criticism is (I gather) relevant to the Discovery Institute Wiki because it reflects on the Discovery Institutes's actions in the intelligent design policy area. The "study" criticism is roughly 1/5 of the "Criticism" section.

I suggest you create a re-write to shorten the whole Judge Judge "study" criticism, and propose it to be considered along side my own proposed sentence. Veritasjohn 20:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

You have very low standards for "personal offense" and "personal attack". You stepped over the line and you know darn well why and how, and now you are being careful. If you want to get engaged in another administrative action, then you can continue down the path you are on right now. But I think it would be best for you to try to stick to the straight and narrow.--Filll 21:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Filll - your comment makes no sense to me. How did I step over the line? Point to anything. How am I being careful? I've always taken wiki editing seriously. "another administrative action" what are you talking about? I have not accused anybody here of "stepping over the line" or anything of the sort. Please point to any of my comments or suggestions and show me what has been objectionable. Veritasjohn 04:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think VJ here has crossed the line into a disruptive pattern on this talk page with his tendentiousness. I think we should follow the steps layed out at WP:DE before he wastes anymore of our time with non-neutral suggestions and fruitless gripes. Odd nature 21:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

<Comments from sock puppet of indef banned user avoiding ban removed> FeloniousMonk 06:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This editor shows a pattern that is clear. And you are not reading the text above carefully, obviously.--Filll 23:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

<Comments from sock puppet of indef banned user avoiding ban removed> FeloniousMonk 06:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It is a fact that the DI made that argument. It is also a fact that the argument remains unsupported; even the citation given by the DI shows that what a court found objectionable (but not so objectionable as to overturn the finding) was the complete verbatim adoption of a party's finding of facts and conclusions of law as the decision.

AFAIK, Casey Luskin successfully passed the California bar examination in 2005, and shortly thereafter was hired by the Discovery Institute. I think that means that Luskin was admitted to practice law in the state of California. I don't know if he has sought admission to the bar in other states. --Wesley R. Elsberry 03:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

"I don't know if he has sought admission to the bar in other states"? How is that relevant? The Wikipedia article on the State Bar of California says, "California administers what is widely considered the nation's most difficult bar examination twice each year" [2], and Casey Luskin passed.

This section of the article cites the legal opinions of you and Ed Brayton, who are not even attorneys. Ed Brayton by his own admission is not even a college graduate (though I don't hold that against him). So if we are going to talk about credentials, then let's talk about them.

<Comments from sock puppet of indef banned user avoiding ban removed>

I stated what I knew about Luskin's credentials not as a slur or slam, but to correct earlier statements that did not recognize that he had, indeed, passed the California bar. Whether he has been admitted to the bar elsewhere is an issue that Veritasjohn raised with his statement,

"Your assertion that Luskin hasn't passed the bar is easily belied by looking at his legal work at DI, including filing amicus briefs with his attorney license #."

The DI is not based in California. Unless Luskin is admitted to the bar or specifically granted recognition in particular venues, it may not be to his benefit to insist that what he is doing for the DI is practicing law.

As for legal opinions, it's obvious that you can get the gamut of opinions on pretty much any topic out of credentialed lawyers. What matters, though, is who is right, and it is just as obvious that not every credentialed lawyer is automatically right and every non-lawyer wrong for any particular issue. As I mentioned when the KvD decision came out,

Back in 2004, Casey Luskin and I had lunch. One of the topics of conversation was the legal status of “intelligent design” and how a court case might turn out. Casey argued that since ID had no explicit mention of the identity of the “designer” as God and no explicit use of scripture, it would have no trouble in court. I argued that the history of commonality with creationism and the identity of the arguments between the two would be found to put ID in violation of the establishment clause. I’m happy to report that Judge Jones concurs with me and not Casey.

But it is a for matter of fact and not legal opinion, as my critic erroneously claimed, that the article currently cites me. How much text was copied from a source to a derived text? That isn't a legal opinion. It is a matter of fact.

I find truth and accuracy satisfying. That is what I'm aiming for. --Wesley R. Elsberry 11:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Given that we have no competent evidence that there was in fact a "verbatim or near verbatim adoption of a party's findings of facts", I would consider Veritasjohn's proposed wording to be misleading, and cannot support it. Hrafn42 03:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Hrafn42. "no competent evidence" is not the right wiki standard, the quotation comes directly from the DI rebuttal. No doubt may people do not believe there is competent evidence for the quoted critics as well as the quoted rebuttal. The rebuttal is a WP:V source. However, I'm willing to come up with a new suggestion. Do you have a proposal for better wording. I don't see the direct quote as "misleading," any more than the DI study or rebuttal are disagreeable. Wiki does not seek truth from your perspective, but it must be verifiable which this is. I will come up with a new suggestion since nobody else seems to have a suggestion at the moment. Veritasjohn 04:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

"Competent evidence" or "reliable source", either way, there's none to back up your assertion, and as such it won't fly, indeed I'd be surprised if it even developed weight bearing wrists and shoulders and managed to drag itself up on shore. ornis (t) 04:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

<Comments from sock puppet of indef banned user avoiding ban removed> FeloniousMonk 06:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

But not even the DI argue that the courts disfavour mere "substantial adoption of a party's proposed findings of facts", so this wording is no better than the last. The main problem is that what the DI accuse Jones of (even if you take their accusation at face value) was never what the courts were disfavouring. 90% of one section of the finding of fact is not "verbatim or near verbatim adoption of a party's findings of facts", unless that finding of facts only has one section. Hrafn42 05:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This comment expresses views that are already represented in the criticism of the DI study. For what it's worth, I prefer directly quoting the rebuttal thing. You have a nice POV about the issue, and one which is counter to what the Discovery Institute argues. That's fine, everyone is entitled to have a point of view. However, for purposes of the wiki article, we're not seeking truth, only verifiable NPOV. The criticism of the DI position on Judge Jones copying of some text is clearly represented in the current paragraph. The rebuttal piece disagrees with your view of what the courts "disfavor" and there are simply POVs on that issue. It is evident that you disagree with the DI argument, and that is fine, but it should not preclude a summary mention of their rebuttal link. Veritasjohn 06:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem appears to be that you cannot come up with a description of the rebuttal that does not misrepresent either what the DI said, or what Jones did. This conflict may well be inherent due to internal contradictions in the DI rebuttal, which would argue in favour of not giving it undue weight. Hrafn42 07:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

<Comments from sock puppet of indef banned user avoiding ban removed> FeloniousMonk 06:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The trouble is that the court opinions that Luskin cited are not even purported to have said anything whatsoever about "distinct section", "most important part of the opinion" or similar. The "bottom line" is that the DI has no such entitlement. This is an encyclopedia, not a debating forum. Hrafn42 08:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I want to say that much of this discussion seems to be getting off track. (particularly some unsigned comments). I want to simply reach consensus on inserted the disputed rebuttal reference and text. Hrafn42 charges that I cannot propose language that does not either misrepresent what DI said, or what Judge Jones did. First, my initial proposed text quoting DI has absolutely no misrepresentation of what DI said. You then stated that your POV finds their statement misleading (and I suspect you find much of what DI says "misleading"), and thus you criticized that it was in error in relation to what Judge Jones did. This is not a question of fact, but is one of opinion, and your criticism really is POV. I tried to accommodate your view, and offered a summary without quotation. You make the same criticism, and now argue that it is impossible to mention the DI rebuttal.

verbatim: "in the exact words : word for word" (thus near verbatim: in nearly the exact words : nearly word for word). This is not an opinion, this is a matter of simple definition. If you have any evidence that the commonality between Jones' findings of fact and the plaintiff's proposed findings of fact (in their entirety, not just a single section of either) meet this definition then please present it. Otherwise stop making unsubstantiated accusations that my "criticism really is POV." Hrafn42 14:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

As to undue weight, there are currently multiple criticism blogs cited in the wiki - with quotes. This is not some outside source blogger saying "I agree with DI, Judge Jones was improper" or some other such irrelevant viewpoint: this is a rebuttal from the organization charged with impropriety for releasing the study. maybe the critics are right, maybe not. On a political debated issue such as this, a Wiki cannot exclude viewpoints because a majority of the editors share some POV. The rebuttal is a highly relevant viewpoint, a direct on point rebuttal from the source accused of lying. Again, an encyclopedia is not supposed to be someone deciding which POV is "True"; instead it should provide encyclopedic information for the readers. Readers are entitled to read the material and decide from themselves. A short sentence saying "The Discovery Institute has issued a rebuttal to the criticism" cannot seriously be considered "undue weight." Perhaps if one were to advocate for extensive quotation from the DI rebuttal, or characterize the DI rebuttal as being true, that would be undue weight.

We have criticism of this study from a legal scholar and the president of the local bar association, amond others. The rebuttal comes from a newly graduated lawyer who has apparently never practiced law, and who has a vested interest in the matter. WP:UNDUE clearly indicates that we should give the latter opinion little weight, if any. Hrafn42 14:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

As to your view of Luskin's use of case citations, your argument is just a POV on whether the cases really apply. I've read the rebuttal, and he is pretty clear about how the facts are different, and in his deriving an allegedly legal policy from those cases. This is not a matter of fact, legal arguments of this type are frequently made (some successfully, some unsuccessfully).

As I indicated above, other editors agreed that DI's rebuttal should be linked, and one asked for a summary. I'm willing to drop the summary and just end the sentence at "issued a rebuttal." I don't think this is ideal, but for the sake of consensus, I would agree to that. Does that satisfy your concerns? Simply put, it is a verifiable fact that DI has issued a rebuttal. Veritasjohn 14:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The section as it now stands is a reasonable summary of the situation. At most I would state that the DI issued several articles instead of just their one "study". And the claims of this study were disputed by others, as is done in the current article. If we are going to include minutae like the Casey Luskin "rebuttal" then I think that this entire issue should be exhaustively studied. All 20 or so of the DI articles attacking the Jones decision should be listed. Articles by those on the other side disputing these claims, including those in the legal literature, should cited. And this undertaking would be sufficiently long that it does not belong in this article. It is not about the DI particularly. It is about the Jones court decision and it is about attacks on Jones. How was the decision recieved? How was it analyzed? Are these analyses correct? Do the claims and counter claims hold water? --Filll 14:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

<Comments from sock puppet of indef banned user avoiding ban removed> FeloniousMonk 06:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

<Comments from sock puppet of indef banned user avoiding ban removed> FeloniousMonk 06:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The Discovery Institute has a well documented long and shabby history of misrepresenting itself, others and the general state of affairs. The press is literally filled with examples. Any accurate and complete article on the topic by necessity is going to cover that. The topic at hand is but one example, would you prefer we found others? If so, which ones? Odd nature 22:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Text comparison

Someone objected to the words,

"approved for use and considered authoritative in Federal court"

in the article, and I thought I would expand on what that was about. For the Kitzmiller v. DASD case, NCSE was consulting with the plaintiffs' legal team. One thing that had to be done was to trace the history of arguments in the book Of Pandas and People, and we eventually had access to six complete drafts of the book dating back to 1983. I wrote a script in Perl to compare two source texts, compile all the matching bits of text found, and produce some statistics about the matching. I provided the complete set of text matches found via the program to expert witness Dr. Barbara Forrest, and those were included as an appendix to her expert report. It was with respect to this material and particular analyses based on it that the decision in the case referred:

As Plaintiffs meticulously and effectively presented to the Court, Pandas went through many drafts, several of which were completed prior to and some after the Supreme Court's decision in Edwards , which held that the Constitution forbids teaching creationism as science. By comparing the pre and post [141]Edwards drafts of Pandas, three astonishing points emerge: (1) the definition for creation science in early drafts is identical to the definition of ID; (2) cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and (3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school science classes in [142]Edwards.

So the program itself never had direct scrutiny by the court, but its output was referred to in positive terms. The "approval for use" would be by implication, as the results from it were entered into evidence in the case, and it formed part of the basis for the testimony of an expert witness in the case. Since the output was essentially self-checking (both source and derived match were delivered in their entirety), "authoritative" does seem like a legitimate way to describe it. It was, in fact, in some part responsible for the decision in that federal court case.

I'll take a look sometime soon and see whether the appendices to Forrest's expert report were ever made public. I seem to recall that they were, but I'd want to make absolutely sure of that. --Wesley R. Elsberry 03:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

<Comments from sock puppet of indef banned user avoiding ban removed> FeloniousMonk 06:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It is a bit difficult to take this editor seriously, since they are anonymous and do not seem to know how to sign their posts. And then using assorted Wikiterms incorrectly in a desperate attempt to Wikilawyer and attack another good faith Wikipedian, just starts to smell like a troll to me.--Filll 12:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Since I never described my own work with the words in question, I fail to see how this discussion violates WP:COI. Nor am I the person who put those words into the article here. Whether the article continues to use them or not is not my call. I can, however, provide the background information for the people who do make that decision.

Nor is the criticism of my program itself well-informed. The fact that my program does not rely on subjective judgment calls is to me a plus, not a minus. My program finds runs of words with possible insertions, possible deletions, and possible substitutions. The particular parameters I have used for comparing the Meyer essays, the OPAP drafts, and the KvD documents is that a match consists of ten words or more where a total of up to four words may not match, which means that substituting synonyms or phrases of length four or less can be detected. Note the objection, "particularly when the program shows a low correlation", is specifically not applicable to the three separate applications I've made concerning copying between versions of an essay by Stephen C. Meyer (copying ranged from 13% to 72% between versions), Of Pandas and People (copying ranged from a low of 6% up to 90%), and the KvD PPFOF and decision "ID is not science" section (66% of the decision section due to PPFOF section; 48% of the PPFOF section copied to the decision section). These are not in any sense "low correlation". (Low correlation would be the 0% match my program found between the Meyer essay variants and the full text of Moby Dick that I ran as a control.) One can argue that my program is too conservative in its matching, but then one would have to argue that the actual amount of copying in the other two applications (the Meyer essay variants and the OPAP drafts) similarly underestimated the true extent of identity between versions compared. I'm cool with that.

Since I have in every case provided the complete set of matches found, anyone viewing those can be a neutral authority in checking how well or poorly the matches are made, and how complete the analysis is when compared to the original.

The "side-by-side" comparison issue is a wash, since both the DI and my program provide those views. I have gone further than the DI, though, in also providing views where the entire source text is shown, and the matches with the derived text and its context are displayed. --Wesley R. Elsberry 12:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps leaving out the disputed phrasing and changing

author of a text comparison program

to

author of the text comparison program used to determine the content and extent of copying between drafts of the "intelligent design" textbook Of Pandas and People for the Kitzmiller v. DASD case

would be acceptable to most. --Wesley R. Elsberry 12:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Wesley - I agree with your proposed text, and I actually think it is more descriptive and accurate than the older version. I think many of the objections miss the boat here - the program was used in the Kitzmiller case after all! This proposal is an improvement (regardless of the objections and edits of the unsigned) - as it is more verifiable and descriptive. The old summary made it read, almost, as if federal courts writ large use the program, and as far as I know, the program has been used in the the Kitzmiller case, but not other federal courts. I will insert the new text. Veritasjohn 14:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

<Comments from sock puppet of indef banned user avoiding ban removed> FeloniousMonk 06:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Elsberry here is not FeloniousMonk. Odd nature 16:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This is because legal precedent is that judicious copying isn't improper. You would not after all spend time producing a proposed findings of fact (a common practice), if you did not have some hope that the judge might make use of it. Hrafn42 17:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

A brief note, in a legal context, "authoritative" implies some sort of legal judgement that "thou shalt do it this way" (which I don't think Jones meant). A better adjective, at least in my opinion, is "reliable" which has the implication of "this is an acceptable way to do it". I've taken the liberty of making the substitution. Hrafn42 17:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

<Comments from sock puppet of indef banned user avoiding ban removed> FeloniousMonk 06:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Elsberry's program does considerably more than "simple word finding and counting", it was used for comparing "different texts" (namely, different versions of Of Pandas and People). A "standard commercial word-processing program" does not have this functionality. Hrafn42 18:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It does not matter what the alleged capabilities of Elsberry's program are -- what matters is how the results of the program were used in the Kitzmiller decision, and even that does not matter if Jones assumed that some standard commercial word-processing program was used. The only results that were used were the word finding/counting results -- "cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID" (see above quote by Elsberry). Identical results could be obtained with the bare-bones Notepad program, except that the word counting would have to be done by hand. The exact word counts are not important -- the important thing is that words like "creationism" were completely replaced by "intelligent design." There is no evidence that Jones even implicitly accepted or approved Elsberry's program for any purpose whatsoever. It is ridiculous that these points even need to be argued -- they are self-evident. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.68.248.69 (talk) 20:04, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

I will attempt to propose some reasonable compromise here. With all due respect to Dr. Elsberry (who's comments are actually helpful in this discussion!), as far as I know, and as far as the sources support, his program has only been used in this single case. That's no knock on his program, it is just fact. Thus, the old wording, and the wording which was used to replace Elsberry's suggested wording, is misleading. Calling something "authoritative in federal court" makes it sound as if it has been approved for general use: such as depositions are authoritative in federal court. Courts employ various tools, including expert witness's and reports frequently. It's simply misleading to take some given expert witness, who testified in only a single case, and say that he is "considered authoritative in federal court."

This was the advantage of Elsberry's suggested wording; it more accurately described the use of his program and didn't make any POV description.

All the discussion about how the Kitzmiller decision used the program seems a bit misplaced to me. So long as the program was used, (which there is not much verifiable source for right now), then the description I edited (which was reverted) is supported.

Now, the alternative to describe is being "partly responsible for" the decision - is even less accurate, and would certianly need a source. Now, as far as I can tell, this clause up for debate is there simply to support Elsberry's credibility with regard to critiquing the DI study. Isn't it good enough to note that the program was used in the Kitzmiller case, without opining that it is considered authoritative in federal court? It's not relevant to the purpose of this wiki, and furthermore, there is no source or ruling that supports that other federal courts would accept the program.

Perhaps Elsberry can provide some source that could be used to verify how the program was used? The current two sources say nothing about how it was used. Was there a Daubert motion on the program, or expert testimony? (I'm not aware of any.) I support the wording that is specific to the program being used in Kitzmiller but which does not overstate its place in federal courts. Veritasjohn 20:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

<Comments from sock puppet of indef banned user avoiding ban removed> FeloniousMonk 06:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree. As Wesley pointed out above, his text comparison program contributed a central part of the analysis that showed the FTE simply replaced variants of "creation" with "intelligent design" thereby showing that it was a creationist book dressed up as science. You are simply trying to downplay the role Wesley's text comparison program played. The undenialable fact is that by the crux of the Discovery Institute's own claim against Judge Jones is that not only did he accept the plaintiff's reasoning and arguments, but he relied upon them to a large extent when he wrote his ruling, and the plaintiff's reasoning and arguments in regards to Pandas was based on the analysis built upon the output of Wesley's text comparison program. In other words, the output of Wesley's text comparison program was accepted by the court and incorporated in its ruling. The fact that same program that was used in the trial was later used to debunk the DI's attacks on the judge after having lost makes it relevent. Now let's talk about your repeated use of the DI's rhetoric here as if it were fact. FeloniousMonk 05:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk said,

The fact that same program that was used in the trial was later used to debunk the DI's attacks on the judge after having lost makes it relevent.

No, it does not make it relevant. The program's use in the trial and the program's use to "debunk" the DI's attacks on the judge were for entirely different, unrelated purposes. The program's use in the trial was just for simple word finding and counting, which is something that can be done by most ordinary word-processing programs. However, in the attempt to "debunk" the DI's attacks on the judge, the program was used for the purpose of attempting to compare the similarity of ideas in two different texts, and the reliability of such use of the program is highly questionable. In the present context, the wording "author of the text comparison program that was partly responsible for the decision in the case and thus accepted in Federal court" falsely implies that Judge Jones accepted the use of Elsberry's program for the purpose of attempting to compare the similarity of ideas in two different texts.

Also, the DI never claimed or implied that Judge Jones accepted Elsberry's program for the purpose of comparing two different texts for similarity of ideas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.27.119 (talk) 08:39, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Appeals court opinion

We find very little, if any, evidence in the record that the

District Court gave the settlement and its unique characteristics the careful and comprehensive scrutiny required under the circumstances. First, virtually every order issued by the District Court was a verbatim or near verbatim copy of a proposed order offered by the settling parties.36 Particularly troubling are the circumstances surrounding the District Court’s verbatim adoption of the settling parties’ proposed Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law into the December 4, 2003 Final Order Approving the Class Action Settlement. The District Court entrusted class counsel to prepare these findings in an ex parte closed door session held before the settlement hearing, when counsel for Appellants were not present. The colloquy between class counsel and the Court, block quoted in Part I, not only reflects the District Court’s failure to inquire into any substantive aspect of the settlement, but also suggests that the fairness hearing was a mere formality. It suggests that the District Court had pre-determined its approval of the settlement

before hearing the arguments of any of the five objectors.

In re: Community Bank of Northern Virginia
I would note a number of points that distinguish this case from Kitzmiller:

1. Nobody has accused Jones of not giving "the [case] and its unique characteristics the careful and comprehensive scrutiny required under the circumstances."
2. Nobody is claiming that Jones' order was "a verbatim or near verbatim copy of a proposed order offered by the [] parties."
3. Nobody is claiming that Jones made a "verbatim adoption of the [a party's] proposed Findings of Fact..."
4. Nobody is claiming that Jones made a "verbatim adoption of the [a party's] proposed ... Conclusions of Law"
5. Nobody is claiming that Jones made a "verbatim adoption of the [a party's] proposed ... Final Order"
6. Nobody is claiming that Jones "entrusted [one party's] counsel to prepare these findings in an ex parte closed door session held before the settlement hearing, when counsel for [the other party] were not present."
7. Nobody is claiming that Jones "pre-determined [his] approval of the [decision] before hearing the arguments of [the losing side]."

It is clear from this that Luskin was using the phrase "verbatim or near verbatim" out of context. The Appeals Court only discussed "near verbatim" in a very narrow context: that of a proposed order. It is also clear that it was a pervasive pattern of behaviour that the court was criticising, not mere "near verbatim" copying of a single section of a document. Hrafn42 15:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Under these circumstances, I think it is reasonable to request that any mention of Luskin's "verbatim or near verbatim" claims be matched against this decision that he is misrepresenting. I would also suggest that this provides further justification for "find[ing] much of what DI says 'misleading'". Hrafn42 15:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Hrafn42 - after re-reading Luskin's rebuttal, it does not appear that the phrase is taken out of context. The whole purpose of his rebuttal, including the title was to show that the cases which disapprove copying of nearly an entire opinion apply "analogically" to the copying of an entire important section. It would be deceptive, perhaps, if Luskin cited these cases and then never discussed how they are different and made it sound as simple as 'Judge Jones did X, this case says never do x.' That's not what his article says. People disagree with Luskin, but one can hardly use this as an example of "deception" -- he repeatedly admits the factual differences of the cases in the rebuttal and goes on to quote leagal reasoning texts to support his argument that the cases still apply, analogically, to show a general policy disfavoring copying. Finally, just because you are not persuaded by Luskin's use of case-law does not disqualify his viewpoint from the wiki. There are losing legal arguments in, literally, every litigated case. The rebuttal is relevant as DI's response to criticism. If it's really that un-persuasive, then readers won't be duped with Sandefur, Brayton and Elsberry's specifically mentioned and quoted criticism. Veritasjohn 21:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Luskin states:

My first post: “Thus, it is clear that while the “verbatim or near verbatim” adoption of a

party’s findings of facts practice is not prohibited, it is also highly disapproved of by many courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court and the Third Circuit Court of Appeals, which

governs Judge Jones’ own court.”

As a citation he gives a link to his earlier blog entry which sources the claim to In re: Community Bank of Northern Virginia.

As I have already demonstrated above, In re: Community Bank of Northern Virginia does not use the phrase "verbatim or near verbatim" in connection to "findings of fact", it uses it only in connection to "a proposed order". Thus, the phrase is taken out of context. You can "re-read" Luskin's rebuttal to your heart's content, it will not change this fact.

What Luskin is doing here is not an "analogy", but a gross and illegitimate extrapolation: that because the appeals court disapproved of pervasive copying of very nearly everything in the entire decision, that they would also disapprove of a far lower level of judicious copying.

The reason that Jones relied more heavily on the plaintiffs' proposed findings of fact in this "important section" (which was not copied in its entirety -- stop misrepresenting), is that this section drew heavily on matters of Science and Philosophy of Science. Jones in not an expert in either, nor does he have direct access to experts in either. The plaintiffs' counsel did (through its expert witnesses and consultants). It is therefore not unreasonable that Jones would draw more heavily on this expertise for his wording than in other parts of the decision (which are more purely matters of law or of fact, and thus within his own expertise). Hrafn42 04:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok - I should clarify my purpose in discussing this bit of the article. I am not trying to have a debate and prove who is right, Luskin or you. That's not my goal, and nor do I think it should be for the wiki page. I am trying to discuss the role of the rebuttal as a bare bones mention in the wiki page. NPOV, I am arguing, dictates at least a mention of the DI rebuttal. Perhaps you are right, and Luskin's critics (perhaps you included) are right. That doesn't change the point that DI's rebuttal is a verifiable viewpoint - in fact the viewpoint of the party being criticized.

If we want to have a viewpoint versus viewpoint debate, then we're not going to be doing the article much good. As just one example, all the unsigned comments points above that seem to criticize Elsberry's program. That's just a viewpoint, and I don't think it should ultimately decide what is included in the article.

Your points about the DI study are beside the point. DI has issued a rebuttal to their critics. You don't think it is persuasive -- fine. That does not mean it should be banned from the wiki article. Under that logic, why even mention the original DI study, since so many critics point out flaws? It is there because it created "controversy" (the section of the article, BTW) and it is certianly not undue weight to add a single line linking a sole rebuttal piece (now without any quotation, since you object to even directly quoting the rebuttal). Veritasjohn 04:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE dictates that we should not mention this piece of shoddy, partisan, dishonest scholarship, from an individual with no standing in legal scholarship and a clear axe to grind. Further, given your repeated attempts to deny Luskin's blatant malfeasance, I think I am not being unreasonable in viewing your viewpoint with a healthy dose of skepticism. Hrafn42 05:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

That's an accurate summary of both WP:UNDUE and the subject matter being considered here. It's already more than sufficiently covered, it's not going to get anymore coverage than it does now, and perhaps substantially less: Wikipedia articles are not compendium's of tit-for-tat claims, but overviews of facts and events based on their significance. FeloniousMonk 05:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this. How much material do we need to shove in this article on this off-topic bit of minutae? This is not what this article is about. As I have said about 10 times, if we do this (which I am not sure I want to be bothered with), it should be done properly, in a scholarly manner, without quoting sloppy pieces like this Luskin note. It should be done carefully, with dozens of references and citations on all sides. And it would be too extensive at that point to put it in this article; it would be too long and off-topic.--Filll 05:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Filll said,

"As I have said about 10 times, if we do this (which I am not sure I want to be bothered with), it should be done properly, in a scholarly manner, without quoting sloppy pieces like this Luskin note."

Who is better qualified than Luskin to rebut criticisms of the DI study of Jones' copying? He is an attorney and an expert on the Dover case. In contrast, many of the critics of the DI study who are cited here are not attorneys and/or not experts on the Dover case. Your statement that his note is "sloppy" is just a POV.

"And it would be too extensive at that point to put it in this article; it would be too long and off-topic."

It is not off-topic. DI wrote the study on Jones' copying. DI was the first to raise the issue of Jones' copying, and this copying probably would have gone unnoticed had it not been for the DI.

Also, one of the big advantages of the Internet is that a discussion on a particular topic on a website need not be long because the website can link to other websites where the topic is discussed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.27.119 (talk) 09:41, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

I might add that when I evaluate someone's opinion on a legal issue, credentials mean nothing to me. I will accept a persuasive argument from a legal ignoramus and will reject an unpersuasive argument from a Supreme Court justice. I mentioned Casey Luskin's credentials only for the benefit of people who make a fetish out of credentials. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.27.119 (talk) 12:28, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Revert war? Why?

I see no agenda in the changes. In fact it makes the text more clearer and accurate.

This is one long sentance BTW:

A subsequent study performed by Wesley Elsberry, author of the text comparison program that was partly responsible for the decision in the case' and thus accepted in Federal court, on the section of the plaintiffs proposed findings of fact regarding whether ID is science compared to the section of the ruling on the same subject indicated that Judge Jones actually only incorporated 35% of the complete findings of fact and conclusions of law that the plaintiffs proposed that he incorporate, and only 66% of the section the DI criticized in particular, not the 90.9% the Discovery Institute claimed was copied in that section

Playing dumb: what decision? and what case? was it accepted purely because it was partly responsible for a previous decision? (sounds like circular reasoning, no something I'd think would be part of a judicial process)

Compared with

A subsequent study performed by Wesley Elsberry, author of the text comparison program used to determine the content and extent of copying between drafts of the "intelligent design" textbook "Of Pandas and People" for the Kitzmiller case, on the section of the plaintiffs proposed findings of fact regarding whether ID is science compared to the section of the ruling on the same subject indicated that Judge Jones actually only incorporated 35% of the complete findings of fact and conclusions of law that the plaintiffs proposed that he incorporate, and only 66% of the section the DI criticized in particular, not the 90.9% the Discovery Institute claimed was copied in that section.

This specifies what program exactly we are talking about - the comparsion program designed to detect copying. What case - the Kitzmiller. And doesn't assert that it was accepted purely on the basis of previous use.

It's more accurate and easier to read.--ZayZayEM 08:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

• also what was so bad about me breaking that big slab of text into three paragraphs into three separate responses - that's what proposed findings are for | ACLU and MS Word | Elsberry study?--ZayZayEM 08:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)