Talk:Chetniks

Chetniks from point of view of constitutional law

From this point of view their duty was to seek and destroy not only germans but also Partisans , Ustashes ... Because they were king's army defending the interest of king and his goverment . Their duty was to destroy every military element that was not in conection with king .

Chetniks vs. Partisans

Chetniks were against partisans because partisans wanted to overthrow regular monarchy , as king's army their duty was to kill pro comunist's , like evrywhere in world regular forces are against revolutionaries during revolution . Sometimes those activities were in the same time when germans were in batlle agains partisans .

Mladic as chetnik and Belgrade ruled by chetnics is nonsense

Mladic was not chetnik , he was against chetnik uniforms in army and chetniks because chetniks tried to burn his mother alive , because he was from comunist family . His Uniform is not chetnik uniform but uniform from first world war serbian army . Belgrade was never ruled by chetniks , but by pro-german goverment of general Milan Nedic .

Copyright permission

Copyrighted text on this page used with permission. --Nikola Smolenski, 15:36, 24 Sep 2003

Comment

Ratko Mladic was not a Chetnik? Are you serious? Can you see that image in the article showing a Chetnik in a uniform? That is the exact uniform you can see on Mladic on numerous photos. The same hat, same symbol on the hat. And not only hat. He was a Chetnik, because he wore chetnik uniform and he obeyed the Chetnik ideology, proposed in a written statut by Draza Mihajlovic where he puts extermination of minorities and expansion of Serbian teritories as the main objective of the movement. The movement is also led by some sectarian ideologies of Orthodox church (cult of St. Sava, similar to occult believes of Nazis). And you didn't have to say you are from Berane, because it is obvious, because that town was a craddle of Chetnik movement in Montenegro. As for your grandfather, he probably was together with Nazis when they executed my granfather's cousin, because he was killed on Jasikovac, near Berane, by the joint forces of Nazis and Chetniks, a day before the town was liberated by Partizans. So I guess he died during the liberation "honestly" defending interests of the Third Reich. Berane was mostly under Italians during the WW2, who were considered the less of three evils. The other two were German Nazis and Serbian Chetniks that colaborated. Ustashas never had a big role in Montenegro, but that was not the case with Bosnia, where Chetnik forces and Ustashas commited a genocide against Muslims and that hand full of Jews which lived in Former Yugoslavia before the War. As it is finally mentioned in the article, Belgrade, under the rule of Chetniks was the first judenfrei capital in Europe. Way before all German and Polish cities. But Chetniks never bothered to take them to the concentration camps. They simply exterminated them. Considering the part of the article where it is mentioned that Chetniks saved some American soldiers, that is a unique case. Let me tell you that there were also some good hearted Nazis who saved Partizans during the WW2. But from that case, it is obvious that it is a part of desperate strategic move of gaining some cheap points towards the end of the war, when even Chetniks new that Nazis are going to lose. It certanly doesn't change the fact that Chaetniks colaborated with Nazi Germany, and were more gruesome and sadistic in torturing, killing and exterminating the civilian populations of Former Yugoslavia. The misfortune is that the movement is still alive and they kill torture and rape (by the ideology of "burned land") whenever there is a chance. Many of the Chetnik financial supporters live in the USA and South America. It is a shame Simon Wisenthal hunted only German war criminals.

---

Well, yes, Ratko Mladic wasnt a chetnik. Belgrade was never a Chetniks ruled (what a stupidity) and was 2nd Judenfrei city after Vilnius, Estonia, just because Jewish community was quite small. Judenfrei policy was boosted by off course Germans whose occupation zone Serbia was, and not by Chetnics - which were without any authority at the time. So "dont mix grandmas and frogs" ... Yes, Chetnics collaborated, Ustashas, some Albanians ... and many other small puppet forces and regimes, no better one from another. Chetnics are alive only in mind of insane, and in some veterans. And its just used iconology, like Croats did with Ustase regime, to boost nationalism, not a reality thing. Wisenthal did not chase Chetnics because he delt with antisemitism. You dont know a fact, and your article will remain just as sign of human stupidy and missinformation. What you can see today at Ravna Gora is mostly drunk old man which are fractioned among many ideas. And this article about Chetnics is quite good. --194.106.188.16 01:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The article above is so extremely wrong and convaluted that it's hilarious to even take it seriously! First of all, even if Mladic was a Chetnik or had a uniform of a Chetnik how is it relevant with Chetnik idealogy? Which "your" version is extremely wrong in the first place. The Chetniks were a nationalist group, they were for the king, and at least the continuing centerpiece of a "kingdom of Yugoslavia". As for "greater Serbia", there is no living evidence to support your rambling of such a movement. The Chetniks wanted to perserve the state of Yugoslaiva not annilate it as the Ustaha, Handjar Division, or SS Skanderbeg's wanted to do. Second, what cult of St. Sava are you babbling about? There isn't any such cult just like your imaginery preminitions of a "greater Serbia" in World War II! Furthermore, please clarify for me where did the Serbs commmite Genocide in World War II--a total oxymoran since they were the ones being killed by the Nazi's themselves. The Chetniks were a resistance-gurilla force that didn't have an organized, planned, or central base to sort out prisoners or set up a concentration camp in the first place. How could they? They faught the Nazi's, Ustasa, and Partizans on three different fronts at the same time. How could they possibly have had the time to commit genocide while trying to fight a war such as this and be somewhat successful? Third, going back to your "fact" about Muslims being killed off by Chetniks? On whose account do you base this? Muslims were allied with the Nazis and Ustasha during the war. How could an ally of the Nazi's legitamtely fight against another alley---it would not make sense because technically if you faught with the Nazi's you agreed to their cause? Fourth, "Good hearted Nazi's" are you insane! The Nazi's had a gold dubblon prize for anyone who captured Tito or Mihajlovic how could they be good hearted to them? In addition, that just defeats your point about Chetniks collaborating with the Nazi's; if they collobroated come the Nazi's still killed 100 Serbs for every German dead. How come the Chetniks weren't recognized by the Nazi's as allies, yet they were still hunted by them, if they were colloborators you don't kill anyone off who helps you. Fifth, did you forget or do you have permanment amnesia as to what Jasenovac symbolized? Let me remind you the most brutal, sadistic, henious, evil, and degrading concentration camp equal to Austwitz itself! Run by our friends the Muslims and Ustasha, by way of the SS Skanderbeg Division as hosted by our Albanian friends! I'm sorry sir, your a disgusting and evil individual who wants to erase any history by reinterpreting, no, lying and manipulating it without any tangilbe and clear evidence to your backing. And sir, I challange you to come up with any evidence that shows the complete and unambigious proof contraty to what I wrote about. In other words please demonstrate and show me where the Chetniks were formal collaborators, set up concentration camps, commited genocide against the Muslims or anybody else during World War II, and while Partizans were the good the old boys of it all during this escapde in history. Please sir don't pollute no troll this article more then your doing it now.

Byzantine Dragon 10:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC) You appear to know a lot about Chetnik uniforms. Perhapps too much

Comment

I have never read something so true in my life! This is the best artical about Chetniks ever written. I must tell the others that Ratko Mladic is not Chetnik, so I don't know why do they say they got something with Srebrenica. My gran-granfather was killed in Chetniks, and I can speak in his name, he fought for King and Fatherland not for Grate Serbia. Greatings from Berane, Montenegro.

Comments from 194.152.224.194

I beg to differ. While the information on the page is largely accurate, it ommits several facts, such as the fact that the Chetniks were the Serbian equivalent of the Croatian Ustase, with the only difference being in that they were not granted a puppet-state by the German leadership. During the course of WW2, the Chetnik formations engaged on numerous terror campaigns, operating throughout the Yugoslav territory, and waging war mostly on the civilian population as they feared open engagements with the Partisans.

Excuse me, what are you talking about? The Chetniks being the same as the Ustasa during World War II? I don't think so. The Chetniks were resistance figthers without a recognized state; they were seen as enemies of the Third Reich; they saved over 500 American Airmen; they were supported by the West; and they saved anyone their own people from complete destruction as mandated by Pavelic et al. I didn't see the Chetniks setting up a Jasenovac style camp nor did they avoid fights with Partizans quite to the contrary. Instead of cooperating with the Chetniks against the Nazi's, the Partizans just sat there and refused to fight the Axis whenever a fight was raging between both groups. More like the Chetniks would do all the dirty work while the Partizans just stayed behind and became parisitically attached to any Chetnik encounter while attacking them at them (the Chetniks) at their weakest!

Oh Please, the Partizans saved around 790-800 allied airmen, and even hundreds of POWs, chetniks only saved 390. Chetniks fought in Sutjeska battle on the german side, as well as the attempt to capture Tito, chetniks were helping the germans at the time! How do you explain that?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.95.114.241 (talk) 01:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Well i dont agree that Ustase and Chetniks were the same but Chetniks did terror campaigns. Hatred among Croatians and Serbs was huge in second world war and prier to it. Just becouse Chetniks didnt have concentration camps doesnt mean they didnt kill Croatian civilians. You can compare Chetniks with Ustase with theyr agenda which was to kill Croatians, and restore Yugoslavia, in which Croatians, and othere nations were dominated by Serbians. In other words Yugoslavia, was bigger then Greater Serbia, but with the same control, in which Serbians rule. Only major difference was that Greater Serbia deniad any other nationalty and Yugoslavia didnt. Yugoslavia befoure Tito was Serbian hegemony and oppresion over other nations. Moust of what you say is wrong anyway. "The Chetniks were resistance figthers without a recognized state" Go back and check earlier in discusion Chetniks vs. Partisans. They were seen as enemys in the begging and laiter went on axis side. "They saved over 500 American Airmen." Totaly irrelevant and expectable if they were on allies side in the begging. Yes they did same thing as Pavelic but maiby not in such big nummbers. And about partizans just sitting around, do i evan have to go into that. Its such stupidity when all the other facts sad on a contrary. Partisans got more and more people, and axis thought that they were theyr biggest treat which later lead to allience with allies. Yeah and i am shure that when partisans fought axis, theyr dearest friends Chetniks must have helped them. Lol. redicules. Think a little. Think.

Also, regardind my entry on modern-day Chetnik movement. The general reference to all Serb forces as Chetniks during the recent Balkan conflict isn't even worth a mention - that is propaganda. However, during the Serb uprising in Croatia (1990 - 1995), there was a number of Chetnik units operating in the area, or at least units with Chetnik symbols. After the siege of Vukovar, the units entering the city carried a large Chetnik flag and sung traditional songs - this much was seen on CNN and BBC newscasts. Additionally, paramilitary units led by Arkan, did most of the civilian terror campaigns in both Croatia and Bosnia. He was, in turn, under the command of Vojislav Seselj, who has openly called himself 'a Chetnik duke'.

Sure you have Arkan if anything, but how did he have this Chetnik philosophy in the first place? He acted oppsitley to actual Chetnik idealogy. Finaly, "Chetnik" songs as you heard were traditional Serbian songs before the Chetnik movement even started. Get your facts straight! Finally, Vojislav Seselj was now nominated in Serbia's general elections. One can hardly say that the movement is dead, and that no links to it can be found in the present.

-- User:194.152.224.194, 14:36, 11 Jan 2004

Yeah your right about Seselj and that the movement is not dead and thats sad. At least we(Croatians) are willing to admit that Ustase were bad people anlike Serbians who think Chetniks as "Royal army", and not drunken and crazy psycophats that killed any Croatian and Muslim civilian that they can. Just becouse they didnt have theyr own killing kamps(like Ustase), and killed only a small groups of Croatians and Muslim at the time doesnt make them any better at all.

Two-headed white eagles (called “kokarda” by mistake, originally kokarda was three-color sign in colors of flag) are national symbol of Serbs – not a symbol of Chetniks. Their traditional symbol was skull with bones. During the last wars in Bosnia and Croatia, terms “Chetniks” (for Serbs) and “Ustasha” (for Croats) were misused.

Sorry, you made a mistake... Chetnik's cooperated with Germans to save as many Serbian lives as possible (you have it in the text) because we had lost a lot of people in previous wars - only during WW1 we one third of Serbs had died. Where are Balkan Wars, and 500 years under Ottomans rule? Do you know that Germans feared us so much, that they ordered to execute 100 Serbs for every dead German, and 50 for every wounded? That they slaid around 2100 students from high school in Kragujevac? Despite Germans, noone was so cruel as Ustasas. You can se it from the pictures. While Chetniks have pictures of Draza and other commanders, Ustashas have pictures with heads of Sebian men. They were savages. During the WW@ they killed about 500000 Serbs. During the last war about 100000 Serbs from Croatia died. They burned my village. Twice. People say that Draza also ordered execution of many people. But during the war, he was continually asking Allies to send as many observers as they can. Can you tell me why would he do so, if Chetnik's commited so many crimes?

What a load of rubbish. Chetniks cooperated with Germans to save as many Serbian lifes as possible???!!! Well if you hadnt harresed us in pre-titos Yugoslavia, Ustase would have never got into power, and they would never kill serbians, but jews and romas, like in any other nazi puppet gowerent. So Ustase got in power to save Croatian life, and to get free of Serbian hegemony and oppresion. During the last war about 100000 Serbs from Croatia died??? WTF?? You invade my country and then you say about war casualties. You must be joking. And how many Croatians did you kill in last war. Its like americans accousing Vietnam for theyr war casualties. It would just looks redicules. So please try not to look redicules. Thx.

Rubbish croatians and muslems and all oether serb haters tried to make chetniks look like nazis to hide their own nazi history and hide the fact that 80% of partisans were serbs and almost all chetniks (who were the first in europe to start to fight nazis) ... in ww2 in bosnia 750 000 serbs were killed, 60 000 croats and 70 000 muslems (including those dying as soldiers of third reich) so tell me who is bad here and for information that nobody mantiond partisans killed a lot of people (civilians) in the ww2 so that argument cant be used against chetniks to prowe that they are evil nazis, as said before they didnt have concentrations kamps like ustaše ... and by the way in last war serbs didnt attack croatia but croats began war aginst minority that tried to defend it self becouse they didnt want to go again in jasenovac ... its same if germany would attack jews in poland and say they attacked us ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.41.88.119 (talk) 21:29, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

At the end, I must say that these texts are so realistic, they have so much truth in them, that I were speechless while I was reading. Wikipedia team, keep out the good work, don't let them corrupt you.

Greetings from Grat Serbia's republic of Montenegro

It is interesting to notice that in 1931 Bosnia and Herzegovina census there has been 1,028,139 Serbs and in census 1948 there has been 1,136,116 + 70,000 Serbs (which are living in Vojvodina from period 1945-48)= 1,206,116 Serbs.

If Ustaše has killed 750,000 Serbs in Bosnia like you are saying can you please explain us how is possible that census number of 1,206,116 Serbs in 1948. If your words are true for me only possible solution is that they have been breeding like rabbits ???--Rjecina (talk) 22:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

graphic photo - need warning, maybe removal

The photo of a person's throat being slit is a bit graphic (despite its low quality). Additionally, previous contributions - he's a problem user and has made repeated inappropriate edits to related pages. If there's some consensus to return the image to the page, it can be done, but I'm still opposed on the same grounds that images of the Berg beheading were not included in the main text of the article. --Abqwildcat 08:36, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC) none. --Shallot 13:08, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Don't think that the picture should go. Nikola 22:26, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Double standards ?

Hmmm….it seems to me that you have a problem with conflicting versions of interpretation of controversial issues. I wont bother about a “problem user” tag (anyway, I got much more serious and ominous labels during Communist rule in ex-Yugoslavia). But- I ask two questions: a) how on earth do you have the temerity to enter into a dispute you, evidently, don’t know anything about ? How do you dare ? b) as for the very nature of graphic violence the photo conveys- why didn’t you react in the case I mentioned ? When you mention the Berg case- I agree. But it only points to the lack of standards in wiki editing: so, if this photo goes, all other suggestive photos with similar content go. I’ll be the first to agree. And not only this. Not only photos, but lies in the text that are proven to be lies (for instance, unsubstantiated propaganda trash spread by a Nikola Smolenski, full of virulent hatred and falsities against Albanians, Croats and Bosniaks)- all this, not only abhorrent images, will have to go to the dumpster. Double standards are just that: quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi. Do you subscribe to this adage ? Mir Harven 14:31, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Moved from Četnici

Četnici Soldiers of Draža Mihajlovic who were known for brutality during the WW2. Also, rebel soldiers in Croatia and Bosnia and Hercegovina, during the War in the 1990's, known for ethnic clensing of non-serbs.

This was POV and written by an anonymous, and since deleted. Another anonymous (from 195.178.32.50) called it "bullshit". --Joy [shallot] 23:34, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, but despite that 200000 Serbs died in last war. Did Chetnik's killed them?

image removal

Marjan, please stop removing images without explanation. --Joy [shallot] 22:15, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Igor too now. --Joy [shallot] 08:17, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The next alias/anon that blithely removes a picture will be summarily banned. I've tried the carrot, let's try the stick. --Joy [shallot]

recent mess

The article is currently messy because it duplicates the stories in subsections. It should probably be merged back, although subsectioning doesn't sound like a bad idea per se. --Joy [shallot] 22:51, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Should be deleted

This article should be deleted, for it is not only heavily one-sided, but also insulting to hundreds of thousands of people, victims of Chetniks.

Chetniks were no better that the Fascists in WWII. They were only on paper "King's army" while in fact they were a bunch of mercenaries heavily connected to nazis.

As for wars in yugoslavia. This article glorifies war criminals, and people convicted for ethnic cleansing, such as Vojislav Seselj.

Damn straight, the Chetniks were also racist, even the king was rascist, he called my people "South Serb" which is offensive to my people. The Chetniks are mercenaries, and they carried out racist killings with Momcilo Djujic as one of them! Hell, watch 10th squardron of navarrone. SMRT FAŠIZMU! SLOBODA NARODU! BRATSTVO I JEDINSTVO!! DA ŽIVEE NAŠA JUGOSLAVIJA!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.95.114.241 (talk) 02:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Prove it ! You have complekses and you try to make serbs look bad to hide yout nazist history, and first of all seselj is not convicted, he is an political prisonaire on trial because he dared to speak the truth.

Broken articles should be fixed, not deleted. Please adjust whatever you see is wrong and we'll work from that. Also see the page history where the old revisions were. For example, this one from 14 Nov 2004, before some anonymous user made a large round of edits. --Joy [shallot] 11:47, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am a proud cetnik i still wear the Kokarda and sajkaca. the Cetnici were proud and honorable fighters who protected their country from the brutal Nazi and Ustasa reigime. i wear karadzic and Draza on my key chain and i belive in the fact that karadic is tottaly innocent and nothing happend at Srebrenica its all bullshit made up by the united states. SRBIJA DO TOKIJA

     Kažeš četnici su branili svoju zemlju?? Šta je Srbija do sve Tokija isto tako "njegova" zemlja??

Nothing happed in Srebrenica?? So, nothing happend to my cousins brother, too? Come to Srebrenica, ask about what really happend! Do not speak about it like you were there.

Serba do tokija is a joke invented to amuse people and people like you misuse it, as for Srebrenica, that vilage vas under protection of un but that didnt stop Naser Orices army to kill 2300 serbs (inclouding women and children), thay sad first that there were killed 300 000 muslems in Bosnia today we know that 100 000 people died inclouding serbs and croats, thay sad first that 15 000 muslems were killed in Srebrenica when everybody saw that that is imposible thay sad there are 7 - 8 000 dead, now after 13 years of diging with help of satelite photos they found 2500 deat of wich most were soldiers killed in battle, of caurse there were alsow killed boys from age betwen 18-15, because any boy older then 15 years is considert "military able" (able to cary guns), this was crime and is sad that it happend but those soldiers (most of victimes) who were killed I dont have simpaties for them because they are nothng but ruthles killers ! And if you want to have 8 000 man from age of 15-49 years you would nead 50 -60 000 population which srebrenica doesnt have not eaven whit all vilages together ...

The intro

There have been some attempts by anons to improve it, but insertion of claims or facts which are substantiated much much later in the article is quite an edit war magnet, so I reworded the intro a bit.

That said, the intro should probably be expanded, so that a reader who is reading another article and just wants to learn the basic facts doesn't have to read the whole article to find them. Zocky 08:18, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Forged pictures

After the WW2, communist regime in Yugoslavia fabricated “proofs” of chetniks’ collaboration with Axis powers. Sometimes, you may spot false pictures very easy. For example, at the front cover of the book that talks about chetniks’ collaboration, there is a picture that shows a German officer with chetniks. Check the forged picture

By mistake, communist forgers haven’t recognized British and American uniforms at the picture. However, the original picture from February 1944 has survived. At original picture, there is no German officer. At both pictures, there are British colonel William Bailey and American major Walter Mansfield. Check the original picture

Ideology

Some ethnic Croats, Slovenians and Muslims also joined Chetniks forces. Most of them were democratically oriented Yugoslav patriots, anti-communists and anti-fascists. They didn’t fight for Greater Serbia but for liberation of their homeland, Kingdom of Yugoslavia:

• General Mihailovic with Zvonko Vuckovic, comandant of 1st Chetnik Corps. Mr. Vuckovic was an ethnic Croat – loyal officer of Royal Yugoslav Army.

• Mr. Mustafa Mulalic, one of Muslim officers in Chetnik’s headquarters, together with General Mihailovic and Mr. Stevan Moljevic (only three of them are in uniforms)

• General Mihailovic with Muslim leaders in Bijeljina.

Added NPOV tag, obvious pro-Chetnik bias, also a mess generally

Subject says it all. This article for the most part has pretty extreme pro-Chetnik bias, particularly concerning the Chetnik atrocities in Bosnia during the 1990s (as in: it glosses over them). It even mentions war criminals by name, without reference to the fact that they are, well, war criminals (e.g. Vojislav Šešelj Serb radical denies war crimes).

Bizarrely, somebody tacked on some text in the "links" section (???) that goes the exact opposite way, flatly accusing Chetniks of being war criminals en masse. While a much more historically supportable point of view, it is mis-placed in the article, and provides no evidence, and so is silly and rather worthless.

Come to think of it, this article just needs to be killed with an ax.

During the civil war in Bosnia, the terms “Chetniks” and “Ustashi” were missused by Muslim-controlled Bosnian government, to refer to Serbian (VRS) and Croatian (HVO) forces. Serb forces in Bosnia made some atrocities – but that was VRS (Army of Republic of Srpska) - not Chetniks! By tradition, Chetniks were 100% guerilla forces, so it was silly to use same term for army with hundreds of tanks and heavy artillery. VRS was everything but not guerilla.

And what about all those people dressed like chetniks during the war in Croatia and Bosnia???--(GriffinSB) (talk) 20:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Communist and anti-Serbian Bias

The anti-Chetnik parrts of the article have a clear bias toward the history written in SFRY textbooks and spoonfed to naive children. One should treat those parts of the article with the same credibility as something written in a Soviet textbook regarding 'American Capitalist Decadence'.

Those who equate the Ustase with the Cetniks fall for the idea of treating present day name-calling of Serbs by Croats and vice-versa as a timeless phenomenon when it isn't.

The Ustase were helped by the Nazis, the same group that created Auschwitz, Dachau, and with the Ustase's help, Jasenovac et al.

The Chetniks were the Royal Yugoslav Army in mourning for the occupation of their land by anti-monarchist forces (Nazis and Soviet-backed Partisans). The Chetniks are rememebered by more erudite Americans and Britons as a force against Nazism, and valiant warriors.

This aticle is BAD!

I'd like to mention, "cheti" and "chetniks" were use in the Balkans long before IMRO (Bulgarians) to start the fight against Ottoman Empire. Number of "chetas" came from Vlashko in middle and late 19th century and attack Turks in Bulgaria. Also many "cheti" were form in Bulgaria proper as well. Just to mention, Hristo Botev, Stevan Karadzha, Hadzhi Dimitar. During Bulgarian uprising in 1876 100's of chetas were form, were the most notable was "Hvyrkovatata Cheta" ("the flying cheta") of Benkovski. Also the name "cheta" came from the verb "count" in central Bulgarian dialects. 68.183.199.202 17:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC) Nikolay Sarmadzhiev

If someone go to this page he will not find anthing but loads of Serb, Croat and other nationalism. Can someone write this aricle without pushing his natonalist (Serb, Croat or any other) bias?

It's utterly, irretrivably POV in its current form, almost racist. --estavisti 19:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The introduction is also wrong, not mentioning WWI and Balkan Wars chetniks. Nikola 10:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

This article is peace of shit. You have not bean objective at all. Especialy the introduction is not true. Ratko Mladic and Slobodan Milosevic are comunists so there is not any posibility that they are chetnics. Yo should clean this introduction an this pucture or I will destroy it for all times there.

SLobodan Milosevic and Ratko Mladic were not communists,thats nonsense,he was probably high when he wrote that.Milosevic was anti-comunist

THE REAL DEAL

The Croat Ustase and Serb Chetniks were both with the Nazis...same thing...only that Croats were slightly stronger and better organised, maybe better educated... BUT Most Croats and Tito included were in the Partizans, as where most Serbs etc... The Ustase and Chetnik were a minority and shouldnt be glorified here or anywhere. Hitler laughed at all Slav people (Serbs-Croats) and said he would use them as slaves. When my great grandfather told me the story of ww2 he said, these soliders...be it Ustase, Chetnik, Partizan or Nazi...they would look for kids or men to join them and if you didnt they forced you to.........so for the most part, most people didnt get a choice of who they surved..... Today there are no more Ustase or Chetniks ...only wanabes...who are mislead into believing these people were the good guys.......trust me only TITO was good..and the Partizans they gave freedom to Yugoslavia..and freed us from Austia Turkey etc.............anyone who doesnt know this is brainwashed nationalist......... Sure there was some odd balls in all parties, such is life, you cant blaim a race for what a few hunderd did.......... The Balkan people are good people

Comment

While there are some points of view-issues in this article, I believe it has suffered far worse from the anti-chetnik camp, as opposed to the pro-chetnik camp. One of the revisions from mid-November of this year seemed pretty fair in both acknowledging the positive and negative aspects of the group.

Furthermore, it seems as though a great deal of edits that have gone down were extrordinarily poorly made, such as stating that the "previous intro was made by Croat propaganda" or adding an overly-dramatic paragraph about how the chetniks were evil at the bottom of the links section. While this may be a contested issue, there's really no reason to continually throw around edits based on your personal speculation. I've noticed the section about the airmen rescue is often deleted and then restored, for example.

Hahahah better educated, u dont nned an education for killing people... All the Chetnik's officers have finished the military school cos they were the regular army and the Ustasass were just murderes. It was all Tito's propaganda that the Chetniks collaborated and killed other people wich in not true. The Chetniks were the regular army of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia not just of Serbia and everyone was welcomed to join in. They weren't a fascist organization as Tito said cos everyone against Tito was a fascist. Cheers

Trouth in introduction ????

This article is rasist, an it is realy shame for some normal encyclopedia

This introduction is realy not truth. I would tell you the definitive facts that you can find in any real historical book

1. Chetniks did colaborated officaly with Italians because they had at that time same interests,(Italians didn't wanted Germans to control all the Balcans)
2. Chetniks din't colaborated officaly with Germans, but some chetnik vojvodas did.
3. Chetniks never colaborated with ustshas because at that time that was imposible. At that time in Croatian controled arrea Serbs have been planed to be killed, cleaned , or converted to cathoilycism. So even if they wanted to do colaborate with ustashi they could't do that.Ustashi have bean their biggest enemy.
4. Slobadan Milosevic never wanted to rehabilitate chetniks, actualy his Socialist Party wery often called their political enemies chetniks (especialy his wife Mira Markovic), its easy to find it on the inteternet because it wasn't long time ago. Chetnik rehabilitation came in Serbia after Milosevic was moved avay.

There is one objective article about chetniks: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/partisan_fighters_02.shtml

You should read this and few more articles an then write objective article about them.

• Branko Stojanovic, Belgrade, Serbia And Montenegro

Arkan and Chetnik insignia

"During the Yugoslav wars, several paramilitary formations, including those by Željko Ražnatović "Arkan", wanted by Interpol, boast Chetnik insignia and some of them committed crimes against non-Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia."

As far I know, Arkan's formations never used Chetnik insignia. They boasted historic insignias of Kingdom of Serbia (pre-1918). Thus, reference to Arkan should be removed: "During the Yugoslav wars, several paramilitary formations boast Chetnik insignia and some of them committed crimes against non-Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia."

no 1 who started yu-war? serbs !!! 4 wars they fought and result kosovo going towards own statehood.

This Article, Chetnik

I have depised this article since I first saw it. About time someone said something. A lot of articles on wiki pertaining to Serbs are complete lies! Anti-Serb racists!!

Completely Screwed

I would advise that we tear this article down. Take all information that is not sourced and POV and remove it. Right now, the Pro-Chetnik bias is so strong that the article barely mentions that near the end of the war, the Chetniks were essentially a nazi auxillary force. Terrible. I shall be bold and do so in the next few days. Please don't revert without discussing or leaving some comment. --Irongaard 05:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

About the current edit war

To the anonymous user who continues to assert that Chetniks included only Serbs and Montenegrins and killed many people in Hercegovina and Dalmatia: If you have something to say, just discuss it first on this page. If your comment is legitimate, and can be backed up with references, we can find a place for it within the article. Otherwise, you're wasting your time. --Mihovil 15:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Chetniks in Bosnia and Croatia did make crimes against Bosnian Muslims and Croats during the WWII. It should stay, but someone should give references about that and. Maybe some sentence which would say that "they killed many Croats and Bosnian Muslims" would be OK. May someone put it somewhere inside of the text? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 12:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

There must be number of victims who are killed by chetniks. I read in chetnik report vhich is send from Pavle Đurišić (chetnik high officer) to Draža Mihailović. "10.01.1943. My units in southeastern Bosnia and Sanđak burned 33 muslim villages, killled 400 mulim mans, 1000 womans and childrens". In february "killled 1200 muslim mans, 8000 old mans, womans and childrens." In october 1943. chetniks burned village Gata in Dalmatia and killed 100 mans.

what u just said here is pathetic and completely biased, muslims did not exist in Yugoslavia until the 1970s they were considered either Croats or Serbs or Bosnians, there was no spliit in religion until the 1970s, although i forget the exact year and date, rendering what you just said completely false.

PS this article is overflowing wtih contradictions and false statements, i suggest that it be frozen and almost completely re-written.

Give to us sources for that. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 15:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Mans, womans????--TheFEARgod (listening) 14:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Odd

As of today's version there is no mention of the rescue of the downed Alied airmen by the Chetniks. Yet there is the mention of the Merit Award given posthumonusly to Mihailovic. If I knew nothing of this topic and read this article I would wonder why it was that Truman awarded this metal to the leader of the Chetniks. It is apparant that WWII revisonist are alive and well. (annymous)

Also, the part: Some ethnic Croats, Slovenians[citation needed] and Bosnian Muslims also joined Chetniks forces. Most of them were democratically oriented Yugoslav patriots or monarchists, anti-communists ánd anti-fascists. They didn’t fight for Greater Serbia but for the liberation of their homeland, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.

Can give us a feeling that ALL the rest of the Serb Chetniks fought for a Greater Serbia.--TheFEARgod (listening) 14:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted the following as their is no proof offered:

In the areas of the Serbia Krajina which included Bosnia and Croatia, a bitter ethnic war was fought. The ruling Chetnik regime had proclaimed as its goal to exterminate one third of the Croats, expel the other third and convert the rest to the Orthodox faith. Chetniks fought both the Ustaše and Partisans in these areas, and retaliated for the crimes against Serbs in the East Bosnia villages mainly populated by Bosniaks (who they saw as ones allied with the Ustashe), and also those populated by Croats.

this is typically false mythology that has been put out by Croats and Bosnians in the 1990s, this is unheard of until then, i suggest that someone either sources this information, or it should remain omitted. The Kingdom of Yugoslavia experienced an ideological war in WWII, not an ethnic one barring the activities of Croatians, this entire section needs to get re evaluated as it is filled with propaganda.

Explanation

Chetniks and the Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland are two related, but separate topics. Shoving both into one article is ridiculous. --estavisti 05:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The article as it is now is useless. Yes, chetniks existed before WWII, but WWII royalist guerrillas were formed from pre-war chetniks, called themselves chetniks, and are the most commonly known kind of chetniks. I think the article should be remerged. 17:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The article was useless before as well. Chetniks of the modern era have very little to do with the Yugoslav Royal Army in the Fatherland, which was a multiethnic monarchist force. We should sure improve the two articles, sure, but to remerge them would be like merging League of Communists of Yugoslavia with Socialist Party of Serbia. --estavisti 17:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

There are no modern era chetniks, there are just groups who informally use the name, or who are called that by other people. Zocky | picture popups 17:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the article should cover the various usages of the term. The Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland is a very specific topic and should not be lumped with all the flotsam and jetsam that comes under "Chetniks". --estavisti 18:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You simply can't divide this subject like that:

• The original usage, to mean "guerrillas", is too general for an article, and warrants at most a sentence in the intro
• 19th century chetniks in Herzegovina, early 20th century chetniks in Serbia and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia are the part of the same continuous story of the same organization, as WWII chetniks.
• Not all WWII chetniks were under the command of Draža Mihajlović, and some branches of the pre-war organization openly collaborated with Germans.
• Mihajlović's chetniks neither began nor ended the war as the "Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland". Mihajlović was named the commander of the army in fatherland some time after his organization was founded, and the army in the fatherland was disbanded and merged into the national liberation army by royal decree in 1944. Chetniks, incuding those that fought under Mihajlović after that were no longer "Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland".
• The modern use of the term on Serbian side is regularly about WWII chetniks and their modern ideological followers. The Croatian and Bosnian usage, calling all Serbian forces chetniks, also stems directly from WWII iconography.
• At least since 1918, chetniks have had a distinct ideology, which is common to all the chetniks mentioned above (apart from the croatian/bosnian usage). It is royalist, authoritarian, nationalist, in short, right wing, which explains their position in WWII. This again means that there is a common story to be told.

In short, when the article becomes too large, it will probably make sense to split off some information into separate articles, but as it is, the split only removes the central subject from its correct title. Zocky | picture popups 18:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, the various groups calling themselves Chetniks are related, but not the same. You say not all Chetniks were under the command of Draza Mihailovic. Surely this is just another reason to have a separate article about the JVO? The term JVO is used to describe the ogranisation that existed in WW2, because that is what it was called for the longest period of time, no matter whether it was founded under that name or not.

The usage common in modern Serbia, both by "followers" and "detractors", is incorrect in a historical context, as both groups misunderstand the JVO. I agree to an extent about the "Chetnik ideology", however Yugoslav nationalism and Serbian nationalism were NOT the same. If the JVO were a Serbian nationalist force, they wouldn't have had Slovenian, Croatian, and Bosnian Muslim members. The article as it stood was trying to conflate wildly varying historical groups into a single narrative. Seselj and Mihailovic have about as much in common as Muhammed and Osama bin Laden (to use a poor analogy). --estavisti 21:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

JVO did have some non-Serbian members and officers, but they were overwhelmingly Serbian, and nowhere in non-Serbian areas did they have mass support of the population. The situation was not entirely simple, but saying that Serbian nationalism is a large part of Chetnik ideology is accurate. In any case, JVO was just a name of the main chetnik branch for some 3 years. The same forces were called chetniks before, while, and after they were called JVO, and they are the central subject that should be covered under this title. Zocky | picture popups 00:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I personally feel that the article should not have been split, but instead, improved and clarified of the points you are bringing up Estavisti. I would think most readers would expect to read about "Chetniks" of WW2 in this article? // Laughing Man 20:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, jebi ga. I expect to read about the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina when I type in "Bosnia", but I don't. Just because the pseudo-historical experts of the Balkans expect to read something, doesn't mean they're right - that's why we have disambiguation pages. // estavisti 21:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

You've got that parallel exactly the wrong way around. Bosnia and Herzegovina is a wider subject then Bosnia, and you can sure read about Bosnia in Bosnia and Herzegovina. In exactly the same way, you should be able to read about JVO in the article on the wider subject, i.e. Chetniks. Zocky | picture popups 22:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the parallel was to show that when someone types something in they shouldn't always get exactly what they expect. The JVO should be included here, in one summary paragraph with a link to the main article. // estavisti 23:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Regularna vojska

All the mentioned persons, chetniks or not, had one single goal - Greater Serbia. And all this talk about chetniks defending the Serbian people from Ustashi terror? As I am informed chetniks exist from the beginning of the 20th century(Balcan wars, and after 1918 the official army of Serbia(Kingdom of Yugoslavia - but that was as Serbia in its expanded borders at that time) and Ustashi yet in the 1930s. The communist partisans and the Ustashi had the opposite goal but every of them in their own aspect - destroying Kingdom of Yugoslavia. By the end of WW2 the partisan army counted about 150,000 men(and women) and in such a large and populated state (say 18 million people at that time) they were a privileged minority who took control over everything. The communist Yugoslavia was an irony from the very moment it started. There were 150,000 people and their families which agreed with it totally, and what about the other 17 million? Until the 1970s and 80s the Yugoslav People's Army was a true Yugoslavian army but then started the "serbisation" of the army which led to a horrible rate of almost no Slovenian/Croatian/Muslim/Macedonian officers. On the other hand there was more Montenegrian officers than Slovenian officers and Slovenians are 4 times larger nation. A nation that counts some few hundred thousand lives is nothing if it doesnt have a protector(in the case of Montenegrians that was Serbia). The answer to the question how Mladic, from a hardcore Yugoslav communist officer, became a pro-Serbian general with large affections to the Serbian Orthodox Church I myself do not know but the fact remains that Karadzic and Mladic are the worst butchers of the Bosnian war. One who orders the execution of est. 7000-8000 Muslims in Srebrenica (if someone thinks I am lying there are video records of that) clearly has issues. Or goals? And many killed Muslims are as well as Croatian (western and central Bosnia and Herzegovina mostly) also Serbs (eastern Bosnia mostly, with some exceptions) in ethnic origin. It's not just that he ordered to kill people. He ordered to kill his own people. As a communist general, he was stationed in Knin, Croatia. It is an interesting coincidence that Knin area is a chetnik neighbourhood (was in WW2 1941.-45. and before it when Momčilo Đujić, the chetnik duke, returned from Serbia with chetnik insignia, was in 1990. again when it was the center of Serbian rebellion in Croatia) even today - the city itself not, with only 20% Serbs in it, but all the surrounding villages are 100% populated with Serbs. The war in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was fought within the borders of imagined Greater Serbia, and when Serbian tank brigades were leaving Belgrade flowers were thrown at them. In 1989. and 1990. there was such Serbian propaganda and meetings (some of them even had even more than million people in.ex. on "Vidovdan" 28.6.1989.(15.6.1989. in Serbian calendar) which was not seen even in the first Yugoslavia. A Serbian propaganda and glorification of "great" Serbian history(no objective historical achievements of the Serbian nation, with the exception of Emperor Dušan and his medieval Serbia), continous trying to show the Serbs as a victim (what is completely ad absurdum funny with them being the largest nation of Yugoslavia). Yugoslav communism in the late 1970s and 1980s was becoming the rule of Serbs, especially after Josip Broz (communist president of Yugoslavia, Croat by nationality) died. Serbs held all the crucial positions in the government, on local levels all around Yugoslavia, in the army(general and local) and the things that happened were just a logical next step. Yugoslavia was, as I have already said, such an irony. Nobody wanted it. The Serbs wanted that war, to create Greater Serbia, and the Croats needed it, to liberate themselves from Serbian rule with a communist mask.

Rewrite this article and use a non-Serb and non-Croat historian to do so! ==

Article as is, is useless...

the discussion forum is full of propaganda from both sides (Croats and Serbs)..I suggest the articlebe deleted and rewritten by non-Serb and non-Croat hostorian, preferably by someone with no ties to the two countries. !!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lusich (talk • contribs) 22:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC).

Why don't you try to improve it yourself? --PaxEquilibrium 21:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I took out the purely non-factual information that had a very distinct anti-Serb tone to it and was mainly based on oppinion. They include some comparisons of Mihailovic's chetnik detachments with Nazi regime, which is clarly a biased view and not fact, and i cleaned up a few other things. However, the article is mostly unchanged. - Aleksandar V.

yep, must be deleted! some things correct, but mainly everything messed up!

Yeah i agree that this article is bad and should be wrote by non-serbian and non-croatian. This article is much worser then the ones about Ustase, althou that one has flaws as well. I mean if i wanna here anyside propaganda ill just go to croatian or serbian wikipedia. when i come to english wikipedia i would like to hear truth, and not articles like this one. Alsou modern era of chetniks is totaly wrong. "Their ideology was based upon the old Greater Serbia plans (Nacertanie by Ilija Garasanin), who proposed a furious fight against the Croats "until our or your extermination" ("do istrebe naše ili vaše") in the middle of the 19th century." First Nacertanie didnt proposed a furios fight against the Croats, becouse if you look in there we didnt exist!! In Nacertanie it sad that all the people that spoke shtokavian dialect were Serbs. Alsou it wasnt only against Croatians but Muslims, Makedonians and Albenians as well.

How can yous tell what is truth and what isnt when you didnt grow up there or know the full story. First of all truth can only be told by either serb or croat who grew up over there at the time. In reality nearly every country in eroupe have had commited war crimes during world war 2 whether it be Nazis, chetniks, Ustase , Yugoslav partians or the soveit union, the list goes on. Reality is that there was no difrence between axis powers and the allies. But i can tell you one thing the Ustase were about the Croatian indepedence restoring of Tomislav old Croatian kingdom. The chetniks were a group who wanted to create a greater serbia. Now the difrence is that Ustase were defending themselves while the chetniks were agressers who bruitly murdered Coats under their rule, during world war 2,during Communist Yugoslavia and during the croatian war of independence. --Marbus2 5 13:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

Given the obvious reasons, I added an NPOV tag to this article. Jeremy Tobacman 16:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Jeremy, if the article is to be improved it would be good if you could specify the reasons for the POV tag. Otherwise, I think it should be removed. CheersOsli73 13:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I added the tag because of the extensive, vitriolic disagreements on this talk page. Though those disagreements seem to have quieted, I don't perceive them as yet having been resolved. Jeremy Tobacman 15:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

A POV tag is used to indicate a specific problem in how the content of the article is presented - if it is presented in a non-neutral fashion. Content disputes, controversial content, and so forth do not (necessarily) indicate a POV problem. --Cheeser1 (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

White Eagles

The White Eagles (paramilitary) article is pretty good: it is succint, detailed, neutral, and well-sourced. However, it does not mention the word Chetnik. This omission is difficult to reconcile with the linkage in this article. Can someone clarify, ideally with references? Jeremy Tobacman 16:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that the meaning of the word Selfish in the dictionary should be changed to A GREEDY SERBS WHO WANTS MORE LAND. They always want more. --Marbus2 5 17:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Copyright violations

Beware, something weird just happened: an IP transformed this article into a version that was a copy paste from http://koz.vianet.ca/jack5.htm and an other IP signaled the copyright infringement to WP:SCV. I am quite puzzled to be honest... -- lucasbfr ^talk 07:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

it is not a copyvio, but a recreation of parts of an eariler version that was apparently used at that site. check the history of this article. the text was composed for wikipedia originally. jebali vas i cetnici i ustase. Moj djed je bio cetnik ali samo zato sto nije volio komuniste i da brane svoja sela od ustasa. Kakva velika Srbija i gluposti. Pa kad je rat poceo (91) rekao je 'Jugoslavija je mala i siromasna zemlja jos kad se iscijepamo vukovi ce nas rastrgati i nista od nas nece ostati'.

Chetnik war crimes

Osli, any reason as to why the war crimes paragraph is removed, despite it being sourced by three references? The Spanish Inquisitor 12:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Spanish Inquisitor, sorry, I was about to enter my explanation on the Talk page when Wikipedia experienced access problems. What I wanted to say was this:

I agree that the current text in the War Crimes section is not satisfactory nor referenced at all. However, to avoid an edit war back and forth between various factions, I suggest that we delete the War Crimes section until we can agree on a text. Before even going ahead and suggesting texts, I think we should find some reputable sources that we can agree to use for this section. Otherwise we'll inevitably end up in an edit war based on differing sources we can't agree on. I've added my suggestion below. Please add to the list:Osli73 13:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• Encyclopedia Britannica online

Merge from Yugoslav_Royal_Army_in_the_Fatherland

To my surprise, I discovered the Yugoslav_Royal_Army_in_the_Fatherland article, which was an apparent POV fork. I merged some of the contents from there to here, and fixed the redirect. The resulting version is not my endorsement of any statement therein; I only superficially took an overview and picked up the paragraphs which seemed better and/or more complete. The article is in a bad shape, with zero serious inline references, with story going back and forth, ping-pong of nationalist POVs, and I would be grateful whoever would like to seriously address the problems. I am aware that the article is possibly worse after the merge, but I gather that it wasn't good anyway. Duja► 15:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

POV

People who don't understand (or don't care about) writing NPOV articles should get the fuck off Wikipedia. Everybody can spot biased articles anyway and will simply discount them, so you're not actually achieving anything. Jonathanmills 21:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Serbian fantasy

Photo of Chetniks with german friends will be in this article because this is right place for that. Only in fantasy of Greater Serbia supporters Chetniks have been force of good. For them it is normal that good Chetniks kill 9000 muslims civilians in february 1943 in Foča-Čajniće region (this is only 1 example) Rjecina 22:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Yea yea we all know you just want to spread anti-serb propaganda. This article is about chetniks and there shouldnt be pictures on chetniks posing with germans when the majority of chetniks fought against the Nazis. Paulcicero 22:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Tell me where have been this great battles after 1941 ? Rjecina 22:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

You tell me why Draza Mihailovic was exonorated of collaborating with the germans by an independant us comission?

But since i know how you nationalist croats are, we can make a compromise, you can put a picture in the collaboration section Paulcicero 23:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Do not worry we will fight on other places, other articles. Example for that is Serbs of Croatia. Serbia kings or despots ruling Slavonia ??? You are really learning myths in Serbia. Rjecina 23:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Yea and in Croatia you only speak the truth? Thats why you needed PR-agencys to help spread anti-serb propaganda during the warPaulcicero 23:26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

1 little mistake I am from old Yugoslav school. I do not read new (1988 - 2007)history books from Serbia or Croatia. For anti-serb propaganda help has not been needed. You have done very good job in Bosnia. Rjecina 23:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Yet you still used them, as far as your reading is concerned im surprised you read at all considering how ignorant you seem to be. Paulcicero 23:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The photograph should not be in the article (especially not as the only photograph) as it shows chetniks in atypical light. Chetniks were primarily opposed to Nazism. Nikola 21:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes during WWII they have been friends with Partisans and enemy of Germans. It is funny to read Serbian fantasy. Rjecina 22:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

You are funny rjecina, you have only read communist propaganda and now you think you know everything about chetniks Paulcicero 22:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Little data about Chetniks from english book "Noel Malcolm: Bosnia - a short history" which is supported by UK (UK has given this books to library in Croatia):

• Stevan Moljević Serbian lawyer from Banja Luka, political director of Četnik movement in 1943. He is writing in february 1942 :" Serbian land need to be extended all the way to Dalmatia, and that there should then follow the cleansing (čišćenje) of the land of all non Serb elements. The things to do would be to send offenders on their way. Croats to Croatia and Muslims to Albania or Turkey"
• Foča-Čajniće region in august 1942. 2000 muslims killed by Četniks under command of Zaharija Ostojić
• Foča-Čajniće region in february 1943. 9000 muslims killed by Četniks (source- Dedijer and Miletić: Genocid nad muslimanima.

Problem solved. I read english, russian and italian :)) --Rjecina 22:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow! i really have to congratulate you on your language skills! And also what neutral writers you found to show how bad chetniks are - Antun Miletic and Vladimir Dedijer!! Wooow! Paulcicero 22:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

This is all data from book "Noel Malcolm: Bosnia - a short history". I know, I know this book is POV like UN 91st plenary meeting 18 December 1992 or any other resolution which speak that Serbs have done something bad. --Rjecina 22:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

First of all Malcolm got those facts from dedijer and miletic (not neutral), secondly our discussion is about if your pictures are representative of the chetniks Paulcicero 22:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

My personal thinking about Chetniks is that they have been inside Serbia neutral force which wait end of the war. In Bosnia and Croatia they have been evil force because of civilian killings (Croats and Bosniaks). War against military forces of NDH and partisans have been OK but killing of civilians... In the end they are very similar (on NDH territory) to Ukrainian Insurgent Army which has killed people of other nationality. Now you know my thinking about Chetniks. --Rjecina 18:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Well not all of them. Yeah, there were many different Chetnik squadrons. The one in Serbia that worked for the collaborationist regime of Milan Nedic ("safeguarding" north Kosovo and the south of Serbia by fighting the Partisans), there were the Montenegrin ones (Montenegro was controlled by the Chetniks throughout the majority of the war) who liberated Montenegro and later collaborated with the Ustashas and German Nazis, the ones who liberated Serbia in 1941 went to hiding (they were the ones you referred to), there were the very good Dalmatian ones who collaborated with the Italian fascists and fought the Ustashas and (sadly) some Partisans, then there are the Bosnian ones that slaughtered innocent Bosnian Muslims in easter Bosnia and Herzegovina (the toll goes up to 80,000 dead, although that's probably an overestimate) and there were the "Serb Krajina" ones that mostly protected the Serb population of the Bosnian and Croatian Frontiers and in effect saved them from extermination by the Ustashas (more credit than the Partisans for that one), but who're also known for several bad 'retributions' to the Ustashas. etc... --PaxEquilibrium 21:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merge from Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland

I don't know anything about the subjects, but they seemed similar enough that I proposed the merge. I hope others will decide and carry out the merge if you all decide it's a good idea. Thanks, delldot talk 14:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

There are 2 powerful arguments why the title of this article should be "Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland":

1.It is the official name of the movement 2.There were various Serbian movements in WW2 which named themselves "Chetniks" user:BoDu —Preceding unsigned comment added by BoDu (talk • contribs) 11:34, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Whatever you do, please don't do copy and paste moves. Refer to Wikipedia:How to fix cut and paste moves for more information. --Joy [shallot] 14:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

refs

this article needs more refs // laughing man 02:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Enough Already

Don’t you think this has gone on long enough; instead of factual information there is a lot of slandering going on here! Obviously people who are narrow minded and cant get over the past or who have not experienced anything related to this voicing what they think is the truth. You can voice your opinion but there are civilised ways of doing so not in a bias way or just because you have some built in hatred from friends or relatives who have hammered this into your minds since you where young! Life’s to short as you can see on this discussion, to many people have died already because of what I ask you? Property? Religion? Dignity, pride...? Are not your mothers, daughter’s sons, wives and husbands more important? Everyone should have a right to defend themselves and there family, however would it not be better to start and I mean all of us a process in which these things do not happen again. There are lots of foreigners out there who would like nothing better than to see us self destruct for one reason or the other. Too many external influences in history have shown to instigate these types of evil doings. Do we retaliate every time someone does something bad to us? Let me tell you it takes a stronger person not to fight or argue and I am sure you will agree. I am shocked through my whole life I heard all of this rubbish and am I the only one who thinks “get over it". For all those women, children and men that died the only thing I wish for is to bring them back doesn’t matter where they are from so they can enjoy their lives with friends and family just like you!!! This will not happen but I can remember and make sure my children dont follow a bias view on things. And yes I have lost them too in the these wars thats why today I stand with a smaller version of what our family were like. Anyway tired of it all what a waste one of the worlds most beautiful places along with people who are capable of many terrific things...... what a waste.

I second aforementioned motion for complete cessation of the nonsense going on here... However, I feel the need to add something: in Serbia Chetniks are regarded, almost unanimously, as WW2 war criminals that acted against their own people. A pile of evidence exists that will corroborate my claim, since Chetniks engaged in senseless violence all over Sumadija region (where I'm from), extorting food, drink, live stock, money... from farmers, slitting their throats for being "communist sympathisers", raping young women... Personal example: my maternal great-grandparents were severely beaten (with a wooden stick) after they had bought two blankets from German soldiers, since Chetniks considered it an act of treason! My great-grandmother barely survived and never fully recovered... So, please don't come here to spill your national(istic) frustrations and tell me how you were the only ones hurt by them - they were a large bunch of hoodlums (save gen. D. Mihailovic and his close associates, they didn't even recognise the name Chetniks) who wreaked havoc in WW2 Serbia and did harm to its own people almost as much as Ustashas did to Serbs in Croatia. And Arkan, Mladic,... (insert you favourite Serbian war criminal here) are just the continuation of that type of behaviour, not a certain policy or ideology - the latter were just pretexts, excuses made in order to justify their despicable actions in the eyes of primitives who supported "revenge against the Turks (Muslims/Bosniaks) for their five centuries of terror in Serbia" and/or "revenge against the Croats for their crimes in Jasenovac", as if revenge ever did any good to anyone... Petar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.240.5.209 (talk) 08:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

This article bears only hints of truth, for the most part it is a fictional depiction of the Chetnik movement during the second world war. It is biased and the picture of Chetniks with Germans is ridiculous. Good luck to who ever wrote this, try and include some facts for those who may not be so educated and base their sole knowledge of the Chetniks on this article. Think about it before you write your next wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.174.250.87 (talk) 14:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Well....

Maybe i'm wrong, but in this text it has been worked more on presenting the chetniks as a royal king's guard and guerilla than war criminals and ideologists for ' Great Serbia ' . This article needs more of the latter, since it WAS the main purpose of creation of the chetniks: making all south Slavs Serbian. Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.232.137 (talk) 00:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Prince Paul

"his new government established even harsher racial laws than Prince Paul had enacted and immediately established three concentration camps for Jews, Gypsies and others." Could anyone explain me what racial laws were enacted during rule of Prince Paul, otherwise that section should be deleted Luka Jačov (talk) 00:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Chetniks or Chetnicks?

What is the offical word for Cetnići in English? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.49.203.123 (talk) 17:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Ill-defined

This whole article is not about chetniks but about the King's Army in Fatherland and later references to it. The term chetniks is much older than BOTH world wars and is much broader. It originates from the times when Serbia was still part of the Ottoman empire and it designated local village militias that formed ad-hoc in face of some imminent threat such as bands of Ottoman deserters bent on plunder and rape. The earliest mention of the term I found is in biography of Miloš Obrenović by Vuk Karadžić where he mentions a group of "Serbian chetniks" harrasing the retreating Ottoman army after the Battle of Ljubić of the Second Serbian uprising (1815). Probably similar groups existed in other Serb-populated parts of the Ottoman Empire until it's withdrawal from the Balkans in the aftermath of the Balkan Wars, but in the early 1900s the term in Serbia applied to something else. It now designated state-sponsored and organised paramillitary groups that were being sent to the Ottoman Macedonia with goal to wreak havoc with the Ottoman authorities in preparation of the Balkan wars. The commanders were army officers, members were volounteers (both from Serbia and recruited locally - some even being Albanians). Bulgaria and Greece also sent in similar detatchments and, oddly enough, on one occasion Serbian and Bulgarian groups clashed in Ottoman Macedonia. During the Balkan Wars and First World War they continued their paramillitary role, often filling the role of scouts and advance guard, sometimes being used like regular army units, but were most famously used as diversants - conducting bombing attacks on Austro-Hungarian officers in occupied Belgrade for instance and heading the Toplica Revolt against the Bulgarians in occupied Serbia. One of the two leaders of the uprising was Kosta Pećanac, later a notable Chetnik commander in World war 2 - he was flown by an aircraft from the Entetne-controlled territory around Salonika to coordinate the uprising with the main Serbian War effort on the Macedonian front. I'm not entirely sure if any chetnik units existed in the interwar period, but the idea was certainly revived when the danger of German attack appeared in World war 2 - two batallions being purposfully formed in Bosnia with goal to wage guerilla warfare and stage an uprising, but they mostly scattered after the German invasion. However the idea materialised when a group of officers willing to fight on led by col. Mihajlović formed the core of a resistance group and took the name "Chetniks".

Veljko Stevanovich 21. 11. 2007 17:30 UTC

I had contributed 3 video's about Chetnik - Nazi collaboration

Someone ereased it. ((GriffinSB) (talk) 11:39, 23 December 2007 (UTC)).

Such links don't seem to fit our external link policy. I also wonder about the neutrality of such changes to the article. --Cheeser1 (talk) 19:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality.They are video's with picture and no comment.

What's not neutral about pictures???((GriffinSB) (talk) 01:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)).

Your addition included an objectionable "see also" that was subsequently removed, as well as links to three youtube videos, which are not acceptable external links. The content actually does contain a lot of non-neutral POV commentary, and many pictures that do not provide the appropriate sourcing or context. --Cheeser1 (talk) 01:29, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Here are the qoutes and cites from books of German soldiers serving in Yugoslavia during ww2 and cites of documents of German-Chetnik relations. I also have pictures of the documents about cooperation between chetniks and Germans.The original documents are in Belgrade Museum.

[1] It's a Serbian website ,so it is NPOV. Every quote or cite has the source under the text. ((GriffinSB) (talk) 21:07, 24 December 2007 (UTC)).

Perhaps you need to learn more about Wikipedia policies. Being Serbian does not make you NPOV. Please check NPOV policy. Furthermore, that is a blog, and is not a reliable source in any way (and neither is youtube). --Cheeser1 (talk) 21:16, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It's all in old books,that i cannot find online.

I'll do my best to find them and to scan the pages.It will take quiet some time.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 23:06, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Uploading scans of copyright works is illegal. Please cite the book (if it is a reliable source, and be sure to present only information that can be verified in this book, phrased without bias. --Cheeser1 (talk) 04:18, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

War crimes during WW2

Chetnik's war crimes should be mentioned. And especially ethnic cleansing and Great Serbia ideology. They have killed around 100.000 muslims in Bosnia and Serbia during WW2. So, I'll put here a sources (someone has asked for them previously) of these facts:

- Genocid nad muslimanima, Vladimir Dedijer, Antun Miletic, Svjetlost 1990. - Srpski zlocini naz Bosnjacima muslimanima 1941.-45., Dr. Semso Tucakovic, El Kalem 1995.

In these books you can find these facts documented, with a list of nearly all victims. There is also a book of Smail Cekic, but I don't know its name.

I hope someone will put these facts ... (right now it seems that this article was written by pro-Chetnik author) --Ibrahim, Sarajevo

1992 - 1998

There isn't any evidence to substantiate these claims and as such I simply had to remove most of the section. Uninformed or misinformed people might actually believe the statements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drkabaci (talk • contribs) 15:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Meaning of sentence refering to Karadžić and Mladić

"The Chetnik propaganda during these wars was facilitaed by Slobodan Milosevic and governed by war-time radicals Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic."

Mentioned persons were not politicaly radicals i.e. they didn't belong to Radical party (Srpska radikalna stranka). If this was meaning of "radicals" above it should be removed or changed.--Čikić Dragan (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes,we can simply call them fascists.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 01:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Deleting of USHMM pictures

During summer of 2007 there has been sort of agreement about which USHMM picture will be in this article, but from May 2008 SPA account Deucaon is again and again deleting USHMM pictures. Our question is if USHMM picture are for this article which is having pictures from 1908 and picture of Chetniks leader in WW II. If wikipedia is NPOV there is need for having picture about colaboration of Chetniks forces with German forces because we are having pictures about Croatian Ustaše from that time period and USHMM has recieved all Chetniks pictures from Belgrade Museum (in Serbia capital). In modern Serbian revisionism Chetniks has been forces of good and because of that USHMM pictures which are showing different situation are very important for neutrality of article--Rjecina (talk) 07:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Flag and infobox

• Ok, it was established long ago that the black flag was the flag of the Chetnik movement. The flag of the Chetnik movement is not the flag of the country it owed its allegiance to (Kingdom of Serbia, Kingdom of Yugoslavia, etc...).
  
• As for the infobox, the "Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland" is simply the long name for the ww2 manifestation of what is known in English sources primarily as the Chetnik movement (per WP:COMMONNAME). Just like "People's Liberation Army and Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia" was the full name of the Yugoslav Partisans. The infoboxes must be merged because this is the one and the same movement. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 15:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
  

P.S. If this is about the "honor of the Chetnik movement" or something like that, be advised that a NPOV must be maintained while editing. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 15:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Picture

Picture doesn't prove anything close to collaboration. Following the same logic I could put the picture of Mladic and Clark as proof of collaboration between Republika Srpska and NATO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deucaon (talk • contribs) 00:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Similar to you I think that this picture show only Ustaša which is standing between dead people. It is not showing killing. Because of that this picture doesn't prove anything close to killing so why many user from Serbia demand that picture must be in all articles about Ustaše and NDH ?

Maybe is time that I start to write serious. During WWII it is not possible to find pictures of friendly meetings between other patriotic, anti-nazi forces and germans. Maybe Chetniks are special or maybe they are collaborationists but this picture need to be in article. USHMM is having 3 pictures about Chetniks and Germans which are gift of Belgrade Museum so if there is any problem with this pictures we need to ask Belgrade Museum.--Rjecina (talk) 15:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The picture does not prove anything, but these references from Britannica ([2]), the US Library of Congress ([3]) and published sources do (David Martin, Ally Betrayed: The Uncensored Story of Tito and Mihailovich, (New York: Prentice Hall, 1946), 34...). I assure you that the Chetnik collaboration with the Axis is not at all controversial: it is well known and founded on firm historic evidence. The picture is in accordance with Wikipedia policy, its removal is not. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 15:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)