Talk:China

A fresh start; let's sort this one out. Please comment politely in Merger proposal May 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chzz (talk • contribs) 05:02, 17 May 2008 (UTC) Template:Talkheaderlong

Template:China Portal Selected Article A fresh start; let's sort this one out. Please comment politely in Merger proposal May 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chzz (talk • contribs) 05:02, 17 May 2008 (UTC) Template:Talkheaderlong

Chronological Archives
Old China 1, China 2, China 3, China 4, China 5, China 6 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Human Rights Violations section

I understand that Wikipedia has no political or ideological stances, but wouldn't it be prudent to add something about china's history of Human Rights violations, exspecialy with the olypic torch protests in the news? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.14.59 (talk) 02:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

There is a Human Rights section: a subchapter of Politics. For better ease, I've changed the Contents so that it includes subchapters. People's_Republic_of_China#Human_rights Dl.goe (talk) 11:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

And there is an entire article on this: Human rights in the People's Republic of China. We would most welcome any detailed contribution to that article rather than cluttering the already lengthy article here.--Huaiwei (talk) 13:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I have re-worded the current section. It missed an important point that the Constitution does not afford protection to anyone accused of criminal activity. Also I changed the bit about when censorship occurs because we need to say that it's happening because the ruling authorities are challenged. To say that it is because the gov is concerned over "security" is to just repeat their position. Let's be honest and say why it happens.

Other changes are simplifications or other small points. Comments are welcomed. John Smith's (talk) 10:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

This page will go to China

各位，I will rename this page to the China page, similar to India and Republic of India, later on we can move stuff in "Chinese Civilization" back to China.--Singaga (talk) 03:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

各位网友，I will make the changes tomorrow，如有问题，请提出。反華份子就滾屎好了。--Singaga (talk) 04:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

请注意， article and discussion will be moved altogether. --Singaga (talk) 04:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

First line will be changed

The People's Republic of China (simplified Chinese: 中华人民共和国; traditional Chinese: 中華人民共和國; pinyin: Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó ), commonly known as China

will be changed to

China(simplified Chinese: 中国; traditional Chinese: 中國; pinyin: Zhōngguó ), officially the People's Republic of China (simplified Chinese: 中华人民共和国; traditional Chinese: 中華人民共和國; pinyin: Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó )

--Singaga (talk) 04:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

This change is similar to India/Republic Of India. --Singaga (talk) 04:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Merge Proposal

• Support: I agree with Singaga the article needs to be updated, and needs more clarity. Buddha24 (talk) 05:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe there is already a disscusion at Talk:China. T-1000 (talk) 06:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

see Talk:China/DiscussRM 74.15.105.205 (talk) 04:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Requested move/RFC

• Talk:China/DiscussRM

Merger proposal May 2008

I have proposed this merger to try and eliminate disputes over the terms for China, and improve information given by Wikipedia to a 'typical' user who types in 'China'.

I think it is quite possible to create a full, balanced, NPOV article which contains a clear explanation of ROC and PRC, whilst providing all other essential details about the country.

The merged document may well be too large, and require subsections.

I have no interest or opinions regarding Chinese politics; I merely want to improve the experience for users of wikipedia by providing clear information on the topic of "China" - be it PRC, ROC, historic deliminations, etc.

It is my hope that, in creating a single main article, through discussion and consensus it will be possible to make a great page.

--  Chzz  ►  04:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Strong Oppose- First of all, the system ain't broke, so why fix it? There is a disambig tag on the top of the page that directs people to the constituent parts of China. We haven't merge Ireland with Republic of Ireland, so why are we doing this here? Second, this entire proposal is nothing short of POV. You claim to have no ax to grind, Chzz, but your proposal, wrapped in such a thin fig leave, fools no one. Merger of PRC with China only serves to promote Chinese irredentism, which will make the entire China article extremely POV to start with. Arbiteroftruth (talk) 08:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment I'm extremely sorry that you think I'm trying to fool people. I assure you I am not, and I am upset that you'd think so. I'm also saddened that the first comment is so negative and personal. I beg everyone to please talk this through without causing another flame war. Think carefully if your comments might be construed as offensive.

It's 'broke' in so much as there is not a single article on 'china' - there are two. This is confusing for people, and it detracts from the quality of both articles. Combining would improve the encyclopaedia. Simple as that.

Saying that the results would be POV is not an argument. Why do you think it would be POV? Surely with concensus we could create a NPOV article. If you think it's POV, we can discuss it and fix it. Yes, it might be difficult, but that's often the way to make the best articles. --  Chzz  ►  12:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

The article would be inherently POV because the political status of Taiwan is not resolved. Merging PRC into China will mean that Wikipedia is advocating that China (which, by many definition, includes Taiwan) is PRC, and that PRC is China. That would stray from our purpose of providing an NPOV article on any topic. Also, like I said earlier, we have a similar situation with Ireland. The article of Ireland refers to the island itself, which includes Northern Ireland. We have not merged Republic of Ireland into Ireland, and we should not do it here, especially when the political implication in this situation is as serious as this. Arbiteroftruth (talk) 16:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose This discussion is moot as there is a merger discussion going on at Talk:China/DiscussRM. As well, with an subject such as "China" and its different interpretations makes it hard for an NPOV article. Unfortunately, what you are proposing is too idealistic. Granted, I see that you have good intentions concerning the "China" articles, however, the situation concerning this area of study/subject is quite complex and cannot be "stuffed" into one article as that would be overly simplistic for a subject such as "China". nat.utoronto 13:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - The subject is too complex for a move like this - perhaps some material overlaps in the China and PRC articles, but from what I know this is the best move. WhisperToMe (talk) 14:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Support. Calling it "complex" is ridiculous. Is Mathematics too complex? This is why we break articles up and link between them. --slashem (talk) 15:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Strong support - although Arbiteroftruth makes an analogy with the Ireland situation, it's hardly the same thing. Taiwan really isn't China at all, just the former abode of a self proclaimed and unrecognized Chinese government that lost the civil war. Simply put, the PRC is the only government in the world that is actually made up of Chinese territory. Add to that the fact that the Republic of China exists to no one but itself these days anyway and you are left with no real reason to confuse the average wikipedia reader with dusty cold war politics. ʄ!•¿talk? 16:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment- Regardless of what you think about this whole situation, Taiwan is still a region where its political status is still unresolved. Many institutions around the world recognize Taiwan as an entity not controlled by China (in the sense of PRC), and given the fact that the PRC does not exert control over Taiwan, merging PRC into China would mean that we are advocating Chinese Irredentism, which would, by its very nature, violate NPOV. This merger proposal is, may I dare say, a pact against nature. Arbiteroftruth (talk) 16:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

comment- "a pact against nature"? I know this is very unwikipedia-like, but excuse me while I LOL... with that kind of hyperbole I hardly need to seriously persuade anyone of whats correct here. The thing is it's hardly my opinion; only 23 countries recognise the "republic of China", all of them made up of small central american, african or tiny Oceanian islands, the latter being highly right-wing & strongly aligned to the US. The point is alot of people can agree that Taiwan is hardly an integral or authentic part of China, the republic of China is usually just referred to as Taiwan nowadays, and it clearly doesn't represent(and this is just a guess here) probably 99% of ethnic Chinese people. ʄ!•¿talk? 20:38, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

98%. That is the percentage of the ethnic Han Chinese in the Republic of China. nat.utoronto 13:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose I believe that there are multiple meanings to the word "China." So I don't see how this merger can work under npov. —Chris! _ct 20:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment- I believe we have to see the term "China" in the way that certain Chinese would. The term "China", although most often used as a Country, is oftentimes used as a reference term for a region where Chinese culture dominates. By that very definition, China would include Taiwan, PRC, Hong Kong, Macao, and (a minority of people would argue) Singapore and Mongolia. We have to look at this merger carefully, and be careful not to play into the hands of Nationalistic extremists/irredentist of the PRC. Not even the Chinese Wikipedia merge China into PRC. Why should we do it here? Why now? However, I believe this plan will work for everyone:

Proposed Name	Topics
China	Geography, Definition, Constituent nations (PRC, Taiwan), Culture and Customs
China (Historical)	History of China, including its successive dynasties, with a cutoff point at the Qing Dynasty
People's Republic of China	People's Republic of China (no change)
Republic of China (1912)	ROC as it existed before it retreated to Taiwan
Republic of China	ROC after its retreat to Taiwan (aka: Taiwanese Government)

Arbiteroftruth (talk) 22:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. Don't see any reason to change consensus. There should be an article for the general geographic region and civilization (China), and the two political entities, as there is currently. No alterations are necessary. Superm401 - Talk 01:18, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment- The splitting of the pages into the plan I advocated would be no different than the current page on Korea. There is the page for the North and the South. In this case, we add a separate page to deal with the nation that we used to know as China (which existed before PRC or ROC was even born). Arbiteroftruth (talk) 03:18, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment Thanks for the constructive discussion. I think several people are suggesting/advocating the same thing - one "main article" about China, and various sub-pages. As to exactly what is in each, I think will require more deabte and thought; but I do think it's good that we agree it needs sorting out - to clarify the current situation.

Regarding Arbiteroftruth's specific ideas - I think perhaps some parts of the current PRC article might be better in the "main" article - I'm thinking particularly of Geography and climate, Science and technology, Economy, Demographics - and some mention of "Human Rights" - to maintain NPOV. I think that the "main" article should contain sufficient detail to give an overall idea of China, supported by detail in sub-articles, including one on PRC.

I also see so much overlap in, e.g. Geography of China and Geography of the People's Republic of China. I do understand how this has happened, but that's the trouble with having, basically, 2 top-level China articles. If 'Geography of China' - the whole thing - does end up too big, then certainly more detail could be in sub-articles, and one could be on the area called "PRC" perhaps.

I know that this is quite a complex issue, but I'm glad we're getting some ideas.

I hope some other people will contribute their own thoughts.

Incidentally, I am well aware of other/previous discussion regarding a 'move', but I think 'merge' is a more accurate description of what needs to be accomplished to start sorting this out. --  Chzz  ►  23:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)Strong Oppose: The merge of People's Republic of China (PRC) into China (or vice versa) is a huge violation of NPOV. To give a few reasons:

• Is Taiwan part of China? Merging China and PRC inevitably treats the boundaries of the two as identical. This will not be supported by those in favour of Taiwan independence. Besides there are currently some islands that are traditionally Chinese soil (part of the Fujian province) but are not governed by the PRC.
• The claim that PRC represents the whole China (including Taiwan) is exactly what PRC's propaganda is all about. This "China = PRC" POV is more likely to be found in a PRC press release than in a supposingly neutral publication like Wikipedia.
• The Two Chinas problem. The Republic of China (ROC) still exists, and never explicitly give up its claim over Mainland China. In fact there are still countries around the world (including Vatican City) that recognize ROC as the legal government of China (see Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China), as one is unable to maintain diplomatic ties with both Chinas at the same time. Replacing "China" with the People's Republic favours PRC's POV and disregards ROC's.
• Certain (traditional) aspects of China are inexistent in the PRC, for example Chinese marriage and the legal traditions of the Chinese law, not to mention the Emperor of China, which existed only in the Imperial era of China (ended in 1911 with the founding of the Republic of China, commonly seen as a transition of China into the modern era). Have you ever seen a verifiable "Emperor of China" since the founding of the PRC in 1949?

As the outcome of the merge will be deeply problematic in terms of neutrality as well as logic, I :*strongly oppose the merge of the articles China and People's Republic of China.--Computor (talk) 23:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly Support I type 'China' in, I want to know about the present-day country. I think many users will be the same. Tom Green (talk) 21:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose If you need to find out what China is that quick, just go to Simple English Wikipedia. Don't bother with regular wikipedia. Here every perspective counts. It does not make sense to ignore all the politics. Also this proposal looks identical to the other on-going votes. Benjwong (talk) 22:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
• Strong Support Only a few countries still recognize the Taiwan-based ROC. The PRC meanwhile is widely recognized as China because it governs the mainland. It is odd that such a famous country as the PRC only has a history that begins in 1949 according to WP. --Tocino 05:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose: It may be true that a lot of people type in "China" expecting the PRC article, but that expectation is built upon the China=PRC POV. Even the much touted 1992 Consensus that the PRC government repeatedly mentions implicitly accepts disagreement over the China=PRC interpretation. Kelvinc (talk) 05:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

• It's a mess, and needs to be cleaned up whether there is a merge or not - the most common names for the two countries should be recognized and used as the article titles. Wikipedia:Naming conventions clearly states: "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." In common parlance, PRC is China, and ROC is Taiwan. Taiwan is a splinter state, and should be treated as such. For a similar relationship see the Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire. The way Wikipedia represents the Chinas is a minority or fringe position - the vast majority of the Internet presents them as China and Taiwan. We're supposed to be neutral, but in this matter, Wikipedia's presentation is blatantly POV. The Transhumanist    07:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Firstly, it is not a mess and the presentation is not blatantly POV. We are being neutral, and the presentation is neutral. Let me ask you: Who was the victor during the Second World War? Who was the member of the United Nations and the Security Council? Was it Taiwan? No. The Republic of China was. We present these articles in this fashion to allow the articles to be neutral and for content in the articles such as Republic of China to be historically accurate. If the article Republic of China was merged into Taiwan, Do you know how historically inaccurate it would be? It would begin to state: Taiwan was the victor in the WWII or Taiwan was a member of the UN and the security council (which the western media always states, but that is blatantly false). The example of the Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire just doesn't cut it, as those are former states and are not relevant. By giving using the Common names in this situation, would be over simplifying a situation/issue that shouldn't be. As such, the status quo in terms of the article names and their content is the best route to go. nat.utoronto 13:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose I think this isn't a problem about policy, but the articles are too long as it is, I think it's simply not practical as it is. Besides, China is more refering to the civilization, and the People's Republic of China is more like the current government. There's been lots of governments refered to as China, even in the feudal periods, there's no need to merge these articles. FromFoamsToWaves (talk) 17:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

• OpposeThe merger pushes two POVs. T-1000 (talk) 03:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
• Support Strong support. Westerners and Europeans have a tendency to hate PRC and that they try to make China separate from People's Republic of China. These two things are very much similar. Chinese history is PRC's history. ROC can stay the same. Today or in the future the "China" article will become part of the "history of China" article. I strongly support this. China is PRC. Period. Kung fu, wushu, cannon great wall is PRC's history. These things are the same thing. There is no such thing as "China" and "PRC." Period. Merge this. "Chinese civilization" is PRC's civilization. They are the one thing no matter what Westerners that hate PRC might say. 71.237.70.49 (talk) 05:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Another suggestion is, make the current "China" redirect to "Chinese civilization" and redirect "China" to "People's Republic of China." That might be less controversial. 71.237.70.49 (talk) 05:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. While I personally agree with many of the sentiments expressed by supporters above, in the interests of being politically correct I think it's best to keep it the way it is. Splitting up info between articles on the PRC, ROC, Taiwan and China might not be easy, but given the sensitive political context, it's the most prudent option. Brutannica (talk) 21:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. China can be used for the People's Republic, the Republic and any number of former states and regimes over the last few millennia. Having the People's Republic as the main article does not only violate NPOV but glosses over a complex historical and political progress. Dimadick (talk) 05:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

STRONG Oppose per Arbiteroftruths argument above. "China" is like "Ireland", it's a region. PRC and ROC occupy parts of the region, as ROI and NI do in Ireland. Keeping China as a region page largely avoids a POV issue due to the two China's. - JVG (talk) 23:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

STRONG Support (for renaming PRC article "China")...for obvious reasons. Nobody looks up China looking for Taiwan etc. The current postition smacks of a biased POV. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 00:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Strong oppose First China and PRC is different. PRC refers to the self-declared Communist government, whilst China is the vast expanse of land. Think of this Taiwan is also China, would you want to merge ROC's article to here to. Of course not. For the pure sake of conveniency we have disambugations and redirects. -- Felipe Aira 12:50, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. There are two Chinese nationstates, to say otherwise is POV. Lord of Light (talk) 20:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. IF MAIN LAND CHINA AND TAIWAN UNITE IN FUTURE, WE COULD EMERGE, OTHERWISE JUST LEAVE THEM THERE FOR THE MOMENT... Using "China" as it is. Synyan (talk) 01:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Strong oppose. Per the arguments of others, inherently violates NPOV. A single article cannot cover the civilization and both states. —Lowellian (reply) 08:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. In addition to the arguments given above, the history of a cohesive political unit known as "China" has existed since 221 BCE with Qin's empire, not 1949 CE when the PRC was established. The national identity of what it is to be "Chinese" was cemented into China's culture during the four centuries of rule by the Han Dynasty. In the past 6 decades, a completely different political identity for the governing state and China's citizenry was forged under the modern nation state of the PRC. There is also the issue of historic "China" conquering parts of northern Korea and northern Vietnam; obviously, the current PRC does not hold onto parts of northern Korea or Vietnam. Merging "China" with the "People's Republic of China" ignores not only the ROC on Taiwan and geographic issues, but also Imperial China and the mainland Republic of China from 1912 to 1949; I would say ignoring anything that vital would be a POV decision.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 07:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

                                  this is a lie  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.58.69.183 (talk) 01:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC) 

Chronological Archives
Old China 1, China 2, China 3, China 4, China 5, China 6 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Human Rights Violations section

I understand that Wikipedia has no political or ideological stances, but wouldn't it be prudent to add something about china's history of Human Rights violations, exspecialy with the olypic torch protests in the news? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.14.59 (talk) 02:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

There is a Human Rights section: a subchapter of Politics. For better ease, I've changed the Contents so that it includes subchapters. People's_Republic_of_China#Human_rights Dl.goe (talk) 11:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

And there is an entire article on this: Human rights in the People's Republic of China. We would most welcome any detailed contribution to that article rather than cluttering the already lengthy article here.--Huaiwei (talk) 13:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I have re-worded the current section. It missed an important point that the Constitution does not afford protection to anyone accused of criminal activity. Also I changed the bit about when censorship occurs because we need to say that it's happening because the ruling authorities are challenged. To say that it is because the gov is concerned over "security" is to just repeat their position. Let's be honest and say why it happens.

Other changes are simplifications or other small points. Comments are welcomed. John Smith's (talk) 10:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

This page will go to China

各位，I will rename this page to the China page, similar to India and Republic of India, later on we can move stuff in "Chinese Civilization" back to China.--Singaga (talk) 03:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

各位网友，I will make the changes tomorrow，如有问题，请提出。反華份子就滾屎好了。--Singaga (talk) 04:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

请注意， article and discussion will be moved altogether. --Singaga (talk) 04:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

First line will be changed

The People's Republic of China (simplified Chinese: 中华人民共和国; traditional Chinese: 中華人民共和國; pinyin: Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó ), commonly known as China

will be changed to

China(simplified Chinese: 中国; traditional Chinese: 中國; pinyin: Zhōngguó ), officially the People's Republic of China (simplified Chinese: 中华人民共和国; traditional Chinese: 中華人民共和國; pinyin: Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó )

--Singaga (talk) 04:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

This change is similar to India/Republic Of India. --Singaga (talk) 04:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Merge Proposal

• Support: I agree with Singaga the article needs to be updated, and needs more clarity. Buddha24 (talk) 05:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe there is already a disscusion at Talk:China. T-1000 (talk) 06:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

see Talk:China/DiscussRM 74.15.105.205 (talk) 04:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Requested move/RFC

• Talk:China/DiscussRM

Merger proposal May 2008

I have proposed this merger to try and eliminate disputes over the terms for China, and improve information given by Wikipedia to a 'typical' user who types in 'China'.

I think it is quite possible to create a full, balanced, NPOV article which contains a clear explanation of ROC and PRC, whilst providing all other essential details about the country.

The merged document may well be too large, and require subsections.

I have no interest or opinions regarding Chinese politics; I merely want to improve the experience for users of wikipedia by providing clear information on the topic of "China" - be it PRC, ROC, historic deliminations, etc.

It is my hope that, in creating a single main article, through discussion and consensus it will be possible to make a great page.

--  Chzz  ►  04:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Strong Oppose- First of all, the system ain't broke, so why fix it? There is a disambig tag on the top of the page that directs people to the constituent parts of China. We haven't merge Ireland with Republic of Ireland, so why are we doing this here? Second, this entire proposal is nothing short of POV. You claim to have no ax to grind, Chzz, but your proposal, wrapped in such a thin fig leave, fools no one. Merger of PRC with China only serves to promote Chinese irredentism, which will make the entire China article extremely POV to start with. Arbiteroftruth (talk) 08:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment I'm extremely sorry that you think I'm trying to fool people. I assure you I am not, and I am upset that you'd think so. I'm also saddened that the first comment is so negative and personal. I beg everyone to please talk this through without causing another flame war. Think carefully if your comments might be construed as offensive.

It's 'broke' in so much as there is not a single article on 'china' - there are two. This is confusing for people, and it detracts from the quality of both articles. Combining would improve the encyclopaedia. Simple as that.

Saying that the results would be POV is not an argument. Why do you think it would be POV? Surely with concensus we could create a NPOV article. If you think it's POV, we can discuss it and fix it. Yes, it might be difficult, but that's often the way to make the best articles. --  Chzz  ►  12:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

The article would be inherently POV because the political status of Taiwan is not resolved. Merging PRC into China will mean that Wikipedia is advocating that China (which, by many definition, includes Taiwan) is PRC, and that PRC is China. That would stray from our purpose of providing an NPOV article on any topic. Also, like I said earlier, we have a similar situation with Ireland. The article of Ireland refers to the island itself, which includes Northern Ireland. We have not merged Republic of Ireland into Ireland, and we should not do it here, especially when the political implication in this situation is as serious as this. Arbiteroftruth (talk) 16:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose This discussion is moot as there is a merger discussion going on at Talk:China/DiscussRM. As well, with an subject such as "China" and its different interpretations makes it hard for an NPOV article. Unfortunately, what you are proposing is too idealistic. Granted, I see that you have good intentions concerning the "China" articles, however, the situation concerning this area of study/subject is quite complex and cannot be "stuffed" into one article as that would be overly simplistic for a subject such as "China". nat.utoronto 13:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - The subject is too complex for a move like this - perhaps some material overlaps in the China and PRC articles, but from what I know this is the best move. WhisperToMe (talk) 14:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Support. Calling it "complex" is ridiculous. Is Mathematics too complex? This is why we break articles up and link between them. --slashem (talk) 15:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Strong support - although Arbiteroftruth makes an analogy with the Ireland situation, it's hardly the same thing. Taiwan really isn't China at all, just the former abode of a self proclaimed and unrecognized Chinese government that lost the civil war. Simply put, the PRC is the only government in the world that is actually made up of Chinese territory. Add to that the fact that the Republic of China exists to no one but itself these days anyway and you are left with no real reason to confuse the average wikipedia reader with dusty cold war politics. ʄ!•¿talk? 16:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment- Regardless of what you think about this whole situation, Taiwan is still a region where its political status is still unresolved. Many institutions around the world recognize Taiwan as an entity not controlled by China (in the sense of PRC), and given the fact that the PRC does not exert control over Taiwan, merging PRC into China would mean that we are advocating Chinese Irredentism, which would, by its very nature, violate NPOV. This merger proposal is, may I dare say, a pact against nature. Arbiteroftruth (talk) 16:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

comment- "a pact against nature"? I know this is very unwikipedia-like, but excuse me while I LOL... with that kind of hyperbole I hardly need to seriously persuade anyone of whats correct here. The thing is it's hardly my opinion; only 23 countries recognise the "republic of China", all of them made up of small central american, african or tiny Oceanian islands, the latter being highly right-wing & strongly aligned to the US. The point is alot of people can agree that Taiwan is hardly an integral or authentic part of China, the republic of China is usually just referred to as Taiwan nowadays, and it clearly doesn't represent(and this is just a guess here) probably 99% of ethnic Chinese people. ʄ!•¿talk? 20:38, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

98%. That is the percentage of the ethnic Han Chinese in the Republic of China. nat.utoronto 13:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose I believe that there are multiple meanings to the word "China." So I don't see how this merger can work under npov. —Chris! _ct 20:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment- I believe we have to see the term "China" in the way that certain Chinese would. The term "China", although most often used as a Country, is oftentimes used as a reference term for a region where Chinese culture dominates. By that very definition, China would include Taiwan, PRC, Hong Kong, Macao, and (a minority of people would argue) Singapore and Mongolia. We have to look at this merger carefully, and be careful not to play into the hands of Nationalistic extremists/irredentist of the PRC. Not even the Chinese Wikipedia merge China into PRC. Why should we do it here? Why now? However, I believe this plan will work for everyone:

Proposed Name	Topics
China	Geography, Definition, Constituent nations (PRC, Taiwan), Culture and Customs
China (Historical)	History of China, including its successive dynasties, with a cutoff point at the Qing Dynasty
People's Republic of China	People's Republic of China (no change)
Republic of China (1912)	ROC as it existed before it retreated to Taiwan
Republic of China	ROC after its retreat to Taiwan (aka: Taiwanese Government)

Arbiteroftruth (talk) 22:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. Don't see any reason to change consensus. There should be an article for the general geographic region and civilization (China), and the two political entities, as there is currently. No alterations are necessary. Superm401 - Talk 01:18, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment- The splitting of the pages into the plan I advocated would be no different than the current page on Korea. There is the page for the North and the South. In this case, we add a separate page to deal with the nation that we used to know as China (which existed before PRC or ROC was even born). Arbiteroftruth (talk) 03:18, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment Thanks for the constructive discussion. I think several people are suggesting/advocating the same thing - one "main article" about China, and various sub-pages. As to exactly what is in each, I think will require more deabte and thought; but I do think it's good that we agree it needs sorting out - to clarify the current situation.

Regarding Arbiteroftruth's specific ideas - I think perhaps some parts of the current PRC article might be better in the "main" article - I'm thinking particularly of Geography and climate, Science and technology, Economy, Demographics - and some mention of "Human Rights" - to maintain NPOV. I think that the "main" article should contain sufficient detail to give an overall idea of China, supported by detail in sub-articles, including one on PRC.

I also see so much overlap in, e.g. Geography of China and Geography of the People's Republic of China. I do understand how this has happened, but that's the trouble with having, basically, 2 top-level China articles. If 'Geography of China' - the whole thing - does end up too big, then certainly more detail could be in sub-articles, and one could be on the area called "PRC" perhaps.

I know that this is quite a complex issue, but I'm glad we're getting some ideas.

I hope some other people will contribute their own thoughts.

Incidentally, I am well aware of other/previous discussion regarding a 'move', but I think 'merge' is a more accurate description of what needs to be accomplished to start sorting this out. --  Chzz  ►  23:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)Strong Oppose: The merge of People's Republic of China (PRC) into China (or vice versa) is a huge violation of NPOV. To give a few reasons:

• Is Taiwan part of China? Merging China and PRC inevitably treats the boundaries of the two as identical. This will not be supported by those in favour of Taiwan independence. Besides there are currently some islands that are traditionally Chinese soil (part of the Fujian province) but are not governed by the PRC.
• The claim that PRC represents the whole China (including Taiwan) is exactly what PRC's propaganda is all about. This "China = PRC" POV is more likely to be found in a PRC press release than in a supposingly neutral publication like Wikipedia.
• The Two Chinas problem. The Republic of China (ROC) still exists, and never explicitly give up its claim over Mainland China. In fact there are still countries around the world (including Vatican City) that recognize ROC as the legal government of China (see Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China), as one is unable to maintain diplomatic ties with both Chinas at the same time. Replacing "China" with the People's Republic favours PRC's POV and disregards ROC's.
• Certain (traditional) aspects of China are inexistent in the PRC, for example Chinese marriage and the legal traditions of the Chinese law, not to mention the Emperor of China, which existed only in the Imperial era of China (ended in 1911 with the founding of the Republic of China, commonly seen as a transition of China into the modern era). Have you ever seen a verifiable "Emperor of China" since the founding of the PRC in 1949?

As the outcome of the merge will be deeply problematic in terms of neutrality as well as logic, I :*strongly oppose the merge of the articles China and People's Republic of China.--Computor (talk) 23:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly Support I type 'China' in, I want to know about the present-day country. I think many users will be the same. Tom Green (talk) 21:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose If you need to find out what China is that quick, just go to Simple English Wikipedia. Don't bother with regular wikipedia. Here every perspective counts. It does not make sense to ignore all the politics. Also this proposal looks identical to the other on-going votes. Benjwong (talk) 22:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
• Strong Support Only a few countries still recognize the Taiwan-based ROC. The PRC meanwhile is widely recognized as China because it governs the mainland. It is odd that such a famous country as the PRC only has a history that begins in 1949 according to WP. --Tocino 05:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose: It may be true that a lot of people type in "China" expecting the PRC article, but that expectation is built upon the China=PRC POV. Even the much touted 1992 Consensus that the PRC government repeatedly mentions implicitly accepts disagreement over the China=PRC interpretation. Kelvinc (talk) 05:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

• It's a mess, and needs to be cleaned up whether there is a merge or not - the most common names for the two countries should be recognized and used as the article titles. Wikipedia:Naming conventions clearly states: "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." In common parlance, PRC is China, and ROC is Taiwan. Taiwan is a splinter state, and should be treated as such. For a similar relationship see the Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire. The way Wikipedia represents the Chinas is a minority or fringe position - the vast majority of the Internet presents them as China and Taiwan. We're supposed to be neutral, but in this matter, Wikipedia's presentation is blatantly POV. The Transhumanist    07:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Firstly, it is not a mess and the presentation is not blatantly POV. We are being neutral, and the presentation is neutral. Let me ask you: Who was the victor during the Second World War? Who was the member of the United Nations and the Security Council? Was it Taiwan? No. The Republic of China was. We present these articles in this fashion to allow the articles to be neutral and for content in the articles such as Republic of China to be historically accurate. If the article Republic of China was merged into Taiwan, Do you know how historically inaccurate it would be? It would begin to state: Taiwan was the victor in the WWII or Taiwan was a member of the UN and the security council (which the western media always states, but that is blatantly false). The example of the Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire just doesn't cut it, as those are former states and are not relevant. By giving using the Common names in this situation, would be over simplifying a situation/issue that shouldn't be. As such, the status quo in terms of the article names and their content is the best route to go. nat.utoronto 13:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose I think this isn't a problem about policy, but the articles are too long as it is, I think it's simply not practical as it is. Besides, China is more refering to the civilization, and the People's Republic of China is more like the current government. There's been lots of governments refered to as China, even in the feudal periods, there's no need to merge these articles. FromFoamsToWaves (talk) 17:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

• OpposeThe merger pushes two POVs. T-1000 (talk) 03:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
• Support Strong support. Westerners and Europeans have a tendency to hate PRC and that they try to make China separate from People's Republic of China. These two things are very much similar. Chinese history is PRC's history. ROC can stay the same. Today or in the future the "China" article will become part of the "history of China" article. I strongly support this. China is PRC. Period. Kung fu, wushu, cannon great wall is PRC's history. These things are the same thing. There is no such thing as "China" and "PRC." Period. Merge this. "Chinese civilization" is PRC's civilization. They are the one thing no matter what Westerners that hate PRC might say. 71.237.70.49 (talk) 05:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Another suggestion is, make the current "China" redirect to "Chinese civilization" and redirect "China" to "People's Republic of China." That might be less controversial. 71.237.70.49 (talk) 05:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. While I personally agree with many of the sentiments expressed by supporters above, in the interests of being politically correct I think it's best to keep it the way it is. Splitting up info between articles on the PRC, ROC, Taiwan and China might not be easy, but given the sensitive political context, it's the most prudent option. Brutannica (talk) 21:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. China can be used for the People's Republic, the Republic and any number of former states and regimes over the last few millennia. Having the People's Republic as the main article does not only violate NPOV but glosses over a complex historical and political progress. Dimadick (talk) 05:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

STRONG Oppose per Arbiteroftruths argument above. "China" is like "Ireland", it's a region. PRC and ROC occupy parts of the region, as ROI and NI do in Ireland. Keeping China as a region page largely avoids a POV issue due to the two China's. - JVG (talk) 23:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

STRONG Support (for renaming PRC article "China")...for obvious reasons. Nobody looks up China looking for Taiwan etc. The current postition smacks of a biased POV. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 00:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Strong oppose First China and PRC is different. PRC refers to the self-declared Communist government, whilst China is the vast expanse of land. Think of this Taiwan is also China, would you want to merge ROC's article to here to. Of course not. For the pure sake of conveniency we have disambugations and redirects. -- Felipe Aira 12:50, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. There are two Chinese nationstates, to say otherwise is POV. Lord of Light (talk) 20:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. IF MAIN LAND CHINA AND TAIWAN UNITE IN FUTURE, WE COULD EMERGE, OTHERWISE JUST LEAVE THEM THERE FOR THE MOMENT... Using "China" as it is. Synyan (talk) 01:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Strong oppose. Per the arguments of others, inherently violates NPOV. A single article cannot cover the civilization and both states. —Lowellian (reply) 08:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. In addition to the arguments given above, the history of a cohesive political unit known as "China" has existed since 221 BCE with Qin's empire, not 1949 CE when the PRC was established. The national identity of what it is to be "Chinese" was cemented into China's culture during the four centuries of rule by the Han Dynasty. In the past 6 decades, a completely different political identity for the governing state and China's citizenry was forged under the modern nation state of the PRC. There is also the issue of historic "China" conquering parts of northern Korea and northern Vietnam; obviously, the current PRC does not hold onto parts of northern Korea or Vietnam. Merging "China" with the "People's Republic of China" ignores not only the ROC on Taiwan and geographic issues, but also Imperial China and the mainland Republic of China from 1912 to 1949; I would say ignoring anything that vital would be a POV decision.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 07:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

                                  this is a lie  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.58.69.183 (talk) 01:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)