Talk:Yom Kippur War

• Archive 1 - Includes discussion of whether the article title is POV, and a poll concerning page move to Arab-Israeli conflict of October 6–October 24, 1973. Outcome of poll was 0/15/1.
• Archive 2 - Includes discussion of whether the article title is POV, and a poll concerning page move to 1973 Arab-Israeli War. Outcome of poll was 8/30/0.
• Archive 3 - Includes discussion of whether the article title (and the article itself) is POV, casus belli, number of troops, and various other things.

Egyptian Flag

The Egyptian Flag back in 1973 war was the one made during Nasser's era (with 2 green stars not the eagle) which is now syria's flag so i think this should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.234.17.176 (talk) 09:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

What does this mean?

In the Golan Heights, the Syrians attacked the Israeli defenses of two brigades and eleven artillery batteries with five divisions and 188 batteries. At the onset of the battle, approximately 180 Israeli tanks faced off against approximately 1,400 Syrian tanks. Despite the overwhelming odds and the fact that most of the Syrian tanks were equipped with night-fighting equipment, every Israeli tank deployed on the Golan Heights was engaged during the initial attacks. Syrian commandos dropped by helicopter also took the most important Israeli stronghold at Jabal al Shaikh (Mount Hermon), which had a variety of surveillance equipment.

Particularly the phrase, "Despite the overwhelming odds..." I don't see why it's surprising that every Israeli tank was engaged with that kind of disparity in numbers?

I agree - I read this paragraph through about ten times, and I can't make out what the author intended to say. I am just going to eliminate everything from 'Despite' to 'equipment,' so the sentence will just read 'Every Israeli tank...' The fact that the Arabs had night-vision equipment on their tanks is mentioned elsewhere, and the 'overwhelming odds' thing just doesn't make sense (and those odds are mentioned elsewhere as well).

I think that's pretty obvious, actually. If there are overwhelming odds, and you have an additional disadvantage due to the night, then the obvious action is to retreat a bit and wait until the situation is better. Despite that, they engaged every tank they had, which means they could have *lost* every tank they had. Who knows, maybe I have a lack of understanding of military strategy. Does that make sense to anybody else? Stdarg 02:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

maybe the fact that not a single tank battle was fought during the night, and that every single israeli tank was capable of destroying any kind of vehicle at ranges of some 3000 meters, while the best tank syria had was not even able to engage israeli tanks beyond 1600 meters. ie. israeli tanks had 1400 meters "free of charge" in terms of enemy fire. that would mean being able to destroy the emeny without losing a single unit for about 3 hours, since the T-62 article mentions that it's off road speed is 40 km/h, and regarding the L7 105mm gun rate of fire -which every single israeli tank used-, i would feel comfortable to but 150 units with such specification to stop 1400 steal boxs.

in the other hand, the egyptian participating in the war with even less capable armour fleet than the syrians, knew that their armour was no match for the israeli armour in that war. the solution was relaying on infantry -the only arm in which egypt had the superiority, excluding the navy- to protect tanks, while tanks were actually invented to protect infantry.

And it worked, the israelis lost about 100 tanks, while destroying 400 on the syrian front; and lost about 500 tanks, while destroying the same number on the egyptian side; according to them.

The Egyptians however combined the mistakes of both: the syrians who relied on their outclassed armour to stop the israeli one, and the israeli mistake of relaying only on high performance armour, nearly neglecting the infantry rule; when they -the egyptians- throw 2 armoured brigades without infantry cover to face well-prepared islaerli tanks in defense positions wishing an egyptian armour attack, which they knew they were able to stop, and cause sever losses on the already badly outclassed enemy armour. One last pharaoh (talk) 12:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Invaded v captured

Which is preferable "Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively, which had been invadedby Israel in 1967" or "Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively, which had been captured by Israel in 1967"? It seems to me that the relevant matter is the capture not the invasion and invasion has negative connotations anyways, so capture is more NPOV. Thoughts? JoshuaZ 23:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't see this comment before posting this comment. Anyway, Invasion is the mere act of occupation and has no negative connotation. Actually, "captured" sets a much lighter tone to what happened in 1967 than it deserves.

I'll replace "capture" with "invade" while waiting for this discussion to jump start (if ever).

For God's sake Raul645 hold yourself. You're showing how biased you are. I keep up bringing this up to discussion even on your Talk page and you insist on your absurd blocking policy. Would you care to explain how the usage of "invade" is a non-neutral point of view? You just keep on reverting changes and blocking without taking the time to discuss. Why on earth is the use of this discussion page if it is to be ignored and bypassed by an admin who clearly believes that his own views are the only "neutral" point of views. Let me remind you Raul645 that I brought the issue of your outrageous blockings up on your own talk page and you choose not to reply and went further to delete my comment. Yet again, I'll wait a considerable amount of time for discussions before replacing "capture" with "invade". The fact I repeatively bring the issue to discussion and wait for replys (which I don't get) before making my edits cleary proves that I'm not pushing a POV as you claim. On the contrary, he who suppressively blocks me atleast three times (once without even mentioning a reason) without discussion is the one who's pushing his biased POV on the article.

Capture is both more accurate and less inflamatory than invade. Raul654 00:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Claiming that capture is more accurate isn't even an argument. How come the Israeli forces "capture" of Sinai and Golan Heights which were righteously controled by the Egyptians and Syrians doesn't qualify as invasion. What's "invasion" if that's not it? As with being inflamatory, you can't be inflammatory by merely stating the fact that happened on land.

Capture is more accurate because Israel did not start any of the wars. Even the 1956 war and the Six Day War was caused by Egyptian actions.

I think the most accurate statement would be "invaded and captured". Invaded or captured alone is ambiguous, because land may be invaded without being captured (i.e. the invading force was not victorious), and land may likewise be captured without being invaded (i.e. it was captured through diplomatic negotiation after the war itself). --JaceCady 14:43, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe that you are incorrect about the use of the word captured. Usually if it happens through negotiation, you would say too possession.

My reading of the history (which may be tainted by the perspective of my sources) is that Israel pre-emptively attacked Syria and Egypt (and Jordan) at the start of the Six Day War. Some argue whether the pre-emptive attack was justified. That is reasonable but the Israeli perspective is that Israel 'captured' the Golan and Sinai. The Arabs consider that those territories were invaded, but that implies that the Israeli attack was entirely unprovoked, which I think is an unreasonable stretch. Even if the Arab nations did not intend to attack Israel in 1967, Israel could not have known that for sure. Therefore Israel acted in self-defense by its own perspective and the use of 'Captured' seems more balanced than 'Invaded'. This is especially true since Israel has already returned the Sinai to Egypt and seems to generally accept that the Golan will someday be returned to Syria.SimonHolzman 23:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Considering that the Arab countries had already starting working on a plan to cut off water to Israel by diverting water from the Jordan River, I would say that is enough provocation. Additionally, Egypt and other Arab nations had made plain that they were looking for additionally conflict with Israel by expelling UN forces. This included a letter from the UAR to the UN commander. Finally making the Straits of Tiran off limits to Israel was more than enough provocation.

I believe that the sinai, and the golan cannot be having the same description. they were both captured in 67, name that captured or invaded, but the sinai was returned to egypt only by direct, and indirect results of the 73 war. the golan was invaded in thr 67, and israel captured even more lands from syria as a result of the 73. saying that they were not invaded in 67 is ridiculous, since weather the invasion was justified, or not, it stills an invasion. the word captured cannot be a description to the possession of lands through politics.

Dear Raul, i understand that some people would like to make it's actions justified. they also might want to prohibit editing articles that talk about the 73 war.

But please, remove the protection level of the article -added by u-, or at least discuss the matter. there are numerous way in which u or any other editor can stop vandalism, other than prohibiting editing the article even on registered members. Thanx in advance. One last pharaoh (talk) 21:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

POV Title

There must be a total absence of any reference to an "invasion" or "attack" by either Egypt or Syria. Since Golan and Sinai belonged to both of them, it was impossible for them to attack their own territory. Plus, the title of this is violation of NPOV guidelines. "Yom Kippur War" is a term employed by Zionists and Israeli propagandists. The non-biased term for this conflict would be "Arab-Israeli War of 1973"

Absolutely not. In so far as Israeli troops were in those areas after 67, those areas were attacked (you might have a point about the use of the word invaded but attack is certainly accurate). As to the second point, history textbooks and such often refer to the matter as the Yom Kippur War. That's the well-known name and it returns far more google hits than "Arab-Israeli War of 1973" JoshuaZ 01:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPOV is a founding principle and one of the few things Jimbo has declared "non-negotiable", so it's supposed to trump WP:NAME. That is why the article name remains a point of dispute for so many new editors as they arrive. Google hits are not NPOV, so use of them to defend the status quo is a nice feel good effort for those who like the current title, but it's not really a valid point. I certainly don't expect any change in the article's name in the near future, though. Unfocused 18:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh please, not this again. That horse has long since been beaten to death. Raul654 18:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, Raul, I'm sure you have more than enough associates in Wikiproject Judaism and Wikiproject Israel with this on their watchlists to make sure this article remains at your preferred title for quite some time. Populism winning over founding policies is rarely as obvious as this, though. I'll ask you again to consider how you'd feel if the readership demographic changed and the article was moved to "Ramadan War". I'd bet we'd have a bid to move it to a mutually agreeable neutral title in a heartbeat rather than have it at a POV title that is claimed to be neutral yet frequently disputed. No need to reply, but this should illustrate why ideally, consensus involves consent of the minority, not just majority rule. Unfocused 20:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Google hits are POV in that sense. It would be POV to use a name for the article that isn't the common name. Both Ramadan War and "Arab-Israeli War of 1973" simply aren't common names for it in English. I would completely understand if on the Arab language wiki this was titled "Ramadan War" because that's the name that shows up in that language, that is the most NPOV term. In English it is known as the Yom Kippur War generally and thus that's the most NPOV term. NPOV does not mean we need to engage in what amount to borderline neologisms in the interest of making editors feel comfortable. JoshuaZ 20:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Popularity has nothing to do with NPOV. The logic you use would lead to some very strange and terrible conclusions. Consider, for example, the history of blacks in America and what your logic demand was NPOV regarding their humanity in 1795. No, true NPOV is truly neutral, even if it requires a dry, scientific notation-like naming convention to get there. Further, your claim is incorrect; "Arab Israeli War of 1973" is actually quite popular, although not the most popular.

Regarding most popular, it would be dead simple to re-write the introduction to point out that "Yom Kippur War" is the most frequently use name for the war in the English language. Pointing out that fact in the introduction is the appropriate degree of emphasis for something that is, in fact, merely a popularity comparison. Doing so would not subvert NPOV as is currently being done. Unfocused 20:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. It isn't Wikipedia's job to decide what people should call things and shouldn't be using a title that isn't the common term. (And if we were writing in 1795 it would perfectly NPOV to observe that the vast majority of people consider blacks to be subhuman (if this were true, it actually wasn't, but that's a separate issue). On the other hand, there may be a point, in that the most neutral sources online seem to use other names. For example, Encarta uses "Arab-Israeli war of 1973" [1]. However, Onwar uses "Yom Kippur War" mentions the term Ramadan war and doesn't even mention the term "Arab Israeli War of 1973" [2]. JoshuaZ 20:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, but you've couched your language, my debate friend. Sure, in 1795 most white Americans probably considered blacks subhuman, and to say that they considered them thusly would be an NPOV description of a common opinion, but to directly state they were subhuman as if it were fact, even in 1795, when adequate proof to the contrary was widely available and generally known (interracial reproduction capability, for one), stating such would be completely POV! Astute editors of Ye Olde Wikipedia, 1795 Edition, would be compelled to remove that POV, regardless of how popular. Unfocused 21:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that that analogy is very good. A better analogy might be what do we call the French and Indian War which is labeled as such and not labeled as the War of the British Conquest or "The Conquest War" or "North-American Chapter of the Seven Years War"(which would be the equivalent to "Arab Israeli War of 1973"). JoshuaZ 21:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia 1795 is not the best analogy, but there are others available in the archive. This article, however, is very different than the example you provide in an important way, too; this article's title itself is challenged as POV by new readers and editors on a very regular basis. The example you provide has not a single mention of POV or NPOV on the talk page, but instead appears to be a simple ongoing discussion of how to properly refer to this war. No one to my knowledge has ever said that French and Indian War (or any of the other variants!) expresses any significant POV regarding the conflict itself, either. That certainly cannot be said here, where the cultural biases are evident in both "Yom Kippur War" and "Ramadan War". Unfocused 21:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

That's presumably because we haven't had many Native American editors on the topic and Brits don't care much about their colonies using silly names and acting like the events in one combat theatre constitute a "war" JoshuaZ 04:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Even if people complain about French and Indian War, what is the POV complaint? No, wait, don't manufacture controversy where there currently is none! Regardless, I think you see the point regarding this article that I and many other editors have tried to address. It is currently using an Israel-sympathetic POV for the title. Which is fine for now. Maybe in a few years, you'll support a move to a neutral title. Unfocused 14:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I've also reverted your edit since describing anywhere as someone's "rightful territory" is not NPOV. JoshuaZ 01:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I really don't understand how calling it the Yom Kippur war is POV in any sense. I would understand it's POViness if Arabs/Muslims denied that such a day exists, but obviouslly they don't. They recognise too that such a day exists for Jews. There's no dispute by anyone that Syria and Egypt started this war and they chose this particular day. Since it's the common name in english and apparently in almost all languages btw I really don't see how this can be an issue... a POV title is 1973 Israel war's against evil, but this simply isn't POV in any way. It should go by naming conventions etc but WP:NPOV simply has nothing to do with the issue. If Syria and Egypt attacked on Valentine's Day and it became a commonly used name it would be called that. (It is a common name of the day to designate the day of the attack. Note that Ramadan signifies the month, not the day). However, they chose Yom Kippur and some say not in mistake. Amoruso 01:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

There are two pages of archived material linked at the top that explains it. Please post again if reading those pages (and the balance of this one) doesn't clarify for you why many feel that this is not a neutral title but an Israel-sympathetic title. Unfocused 14:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think that this article should probably be renamed "Arab-Israeli War of 1973" or something similar, but that there should be a redirection page called "Yom Kippur War" that points to it. That seems like the best balance of providing a NPOV title to the article while preserving access to it for the majority of English speakers. It seems sensible to me that the article have a title that is both accurate and that is impossible to confuse with any other possible war. The same naming process should apply to the other wars between multiple Arab countries and Israel.SimonHolzman 23:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, simply because "Arab-Israeli War of 1973" is more of a description than a title. When a common use title is available, that should be preferred. For instance, "World War I" is used instead of "Global Military Conflict of 1914 to 1918". Beyond that, don't you think it's significant that the war was scheduled for Yom Kippur? Just like the date was significant to the Saint Valentine's Day massacre?

On another note, how are article names for Civil War battles decided? According to Naming the American Civil War, generally the Northern names are more popular, and it seems that Wikipedia articles adopt them, even though that could (by the logic presented in this debate) be considered POV. Stdarg 03:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Combatants

Combatants list was misleading, other conflicts on wikipedia do not show the providers of political or "military-aid" (ie USA, UK, FRANCE) are not listed on the Israeli side of this conflict in the information pane. This section was obviously skewed for political reasons to make the "arab coalition" appear to represent more arabs than it actually did in terms of forces deployed in the war. The nations who did not actually provide troops should be removed.

I note that the infobox on the Hebrew wiki is more minimalist, with only the flags of Egypt and Syria noted. El_C 15:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The countries listed in the "aided by" section are countries that sent fighting troops to fight in the war against Israel (e.g, combatants, as the section name implies). Nobody sent any troops to help Israel. I'm OK with listing only the major combantants only (Israel, Syria, Egypt, and Iraq), or all of the ones (Israel, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and all the smaller mostly arab countries that helped Syria and Iraq), but listing the US, France, etc as combatants is plainly false. Raul654 16:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Certainly agreed about the US and France. But I really think we should consider following the Hebrew wiki's infobox model for the flagicons/combatants: that is, only have the Egyptian and Syrian flag icons, but in the forces also note Iraq and Jordan. Thoughts? El_C 16:37, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Raul654, aided by should only include countries that supplied direct military participation. If the providers of arms and training are to be listed, then let's not forget the Soviet Union. Anynobody 09:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Infobox should match article

The box listed countries not mentioned in the article, like Pakistan. I'm not sure about including countries that provided financial aid, so I left out Kuwait and Saudi Arabia (token forces seem to be just that, token). Anynobody 22:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually I do see that Pakistan sent pilots, but the infobox makes it seem like Jordan and Iraq were part of the initial attack. They weren't of course, and if Jordan had decided to participate in the initial attack, they would have simply attacked over their border in the beginning instead of sending an expeditionary force later. I therefore added Jordan and Iraq to the aided by section. Anynobody 04:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

12 Pakistan Air Force pilots did participate in the war and one was able to shoot down one of the Israeli Mirage.Chanakyathegreat 11:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

As discussed elsewhere on this page, the infobox lists only the major combatants. Raul654 16:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Operation Nickel Grass

Why is this mentioned so briefly in this article? As I understand the history, O:NS was instrumental in Israel's victory in the war. Without it, Israel could not have afforded to go on the offensive in any of the combat theatres, which would have led to very different negotiations at the end of the war. We can pull sources directly from its wiki entry; it should at least have a small section devoted to it, considering its immense strategic importance. Spectheintro 19:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)spectheintro

I second that sentiment. Golda Meir has praised Richard Nixon - not someone she was likely to have kind thoughts about, given that he was a Republican anti-Semite and she was a socialist Jew - for saving Israel with the airlift. It's kind of ridiculous that it only merits an off-hand reference in this article. 66.82.9.54 (talk) 03:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Possible anachronism

According to this article some of the combattant nations listed were not sovereign states at the time of this particular war. Did these countries retain their separate armies while in political union? Should the use of flags, names and casualty statistics etc be revised to reflect the number of states involved in the war?

The article says plainly that it was an "abortive attempt" - e.g, it never got off the ground. Raul654 14:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Casus belli

I am not quite sure about that casus belli, I have to look at many sources. It does not explain why Egypt and Syria had made a plan to meet in Tel Aviv. Yes, Egyptian troops stopped at the Sinai border, but Syrian troops certainly passed the Golan Heights and occupied parts of the Galilee. --Shamir1 04:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about. The above statement makes no sense. Raul654 04:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it makes sense. Do you have any questions?

Encyclopedia of the Orient says

Egypt and Syria used this laxity to launch a surprise attack on Israel. The goal of the war was to win back lost Arab territory from preceding wars, first in 1947-49, then 1956 and especially in the last, the Six-Day War of 1967.

--Shamir1 04:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Right, and the article says that (almost verbatim). So what does that have to do with "a plan to meet in Tel Aviv", "Egyptian troops stopped at the Sinai border", and Syrian troops occupying parts of Galilee? I've never heard of any such plan to meet in Tel Aviv, the Egyptians were most certainly not stopped at the border, and I'm fairly sure the Syrians never got past the Golan heights into Galilee. So like I said, your comments here make no sense. Raul654 04:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Egyptian politics and Egyptian missiles in Harb Ramadhan

Casus belli was in President Sadat's personal political plans (!) That's why I see it necessery to look in this article at the October War 1973 or "Harb October" or "Harb Ramadhan" from the Egyptian initial point of view, because all the ivent was President Sadat's initiative and his political success in changing political and economical orientation for his country. Sadat sucseeded politically in pan-Arabic construction of "silaah al-bitrul" = "oil weapon" or an organized oil embargo against the West to make it better with Arabs and their problems. He also succeeded in getting "Luna-M" and "Scud" Soviet-made tactical and operational SS missiles to destroy Israeli command network in Sinai and to threten Israeli terretory without using his aviation. October 22, 1973 ca. 18:55 p.m. three Scud missiles were fired by Egyptians on Israeli forces crossing the Suez Canal - the historical fact described in Saad ad-Din al-Shazili's book only. --Mutargim (talk) 10:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

L-29 missing?

Didn´t EAF use the Aero L-29 "Delfin" jettrainer in the Sinai during Yom Kippur War? RGDS Alexmcfire

"In the end, the Soviets reconciled themselves to an Arab defeat."

I don't think the Soviets were ever against an Arab defeat. They were seeking to prevent the complete destruction of Egypt and Syria. In short, the reasons why the Soviets didn't get directly involved were more complicated. -bosoxrock88 March 12, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bosoxrock88 (talk • contribs) 20:03, 12 March 2008

I don't think the Soviets were ever against an Arab defeat. - incorrect. Egypt and Syria were both Soviet satellite nations, even if Egypt had strayed a bit. Egypt's defeat would have given (and did give) the Soviets a black eye, and they did everything they could to prevent it. Raul654 (talk) 22:48, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The Soviets were against the complete destruction of the Arab forces. They, along with everyone else, realized that there was little that could be done to prevent an "Arab defeat".

They did not do everything they could to prevent it. The Soviets threatened to send troops to the region because they sought to prevent the complete destruction of the Arab forces. Once the US showed the Soviets that they were serious about making the Israelis accept the UN resolution, the Soviets backed down. The United States alerted their nuclear forces, and placed incredible pressure on the Israelis, more or less forcing the Israelis to accept the cease-fire.

In essence, the Soviet position was more nuanced than simply "wanting the Arabs to win."

Scott D. Sagan has written extensively on the subject. I could only find a jstor link: http://www.jstor.org/sici?sici=0015-7228(197923)36%3C160%3ALOTYKA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-%23&cookieSet=1

-Bosoxrock88 4-18-08

Egypt not Russia

in yom kippor war all The units and the soldiers was Egyptian and no one Russian soldier was fighting in it , Just was some weapons cuz Egypt was'nt have ther own Weapons at that time ( 1970/1980 ) The victory was Egyptian not russian or for any other country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahmoud-Megahid (talk • contribs) 02:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Initiation of hostilities

The Egyptian and Syrian viewpoints as to what side struck first have to be considered. [3]

On 6 October, Egypt, in a letter to the President of the General Assembly, said that Israeli air formations had that morning attacked Egyptian forces in the area of the Gulf of Suez, while Israeli naval units were simultaneously approaching the western coast of the Gulf. These units had been engaged by Egyptian forces, the letter said.

On 6 October, in a letter to the President of the Security Council, the Syrian Arab Republic said that during that day Israeli armed forces had launched a military attack against Syrian forward positions all along the cease-fire line. Syrian forces had had to return the fire, the letter added. Formations of Israeli aircraft had penetrated Syrian air space in the northern sector of the front, leading to confrontation with the Syrian air force. The battle was still raging on land and in the air, the letter said, revealing Israel's intention of waging a total war.

Sounds like an fictitious pre-texts to justify the surprise attack they had been planning for a year. Do you have any sources (besides the obviously self-serving claims made by Arab governments) that describe these supposed attacks? Neither Rabinovich nor Heikal make any mention of them. Raul654 (talk) 06:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, these were statements admitted to be false or quietly ignored soon after they served their function of creating a little diplomatic smoke during the fighting. Israel similarly made such statements that they were attacked first in the Six Day war. Nobody gives either any credence.John Z (talk) 18:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

At any rate the Egyptians did not need to justify their attack. They had a legitimate cause to attack the Israelis and liberate their land. Sherif9282 (talk) 20:36, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Soltam M-68

Could someone please add the Soltam M-68 155 mm howitzer into the table beside the French 155 mm model that was also in use during the war? Thank you. --Dave1185 (talk) 20:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Punctuation

{{editprotected}}

In the second paragraph, please remove the quotation marks around seam. They are incorrect and unnecessary. Reywas92^Talk 00:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Also in the "At Sea" section, include the template at the top: {{|Main|Battle of Latakia}}. Thanks! Spencer^T♦C 22:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

 Done. Jon513 (talk) 11:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Spencer^T♦C 11:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Link FA - update

Hello. The article on the zh-WP is not 'featured' (any more?). Thus, could somebody please remove the <{{Link FA|zh}} markup? Thanks in advance. --Guandalug (talk) 09:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Done. Raul654 (talk) 14:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Protection level

the 1st protection level was good enough. now the current one unables me for example to contribute. please lower the protection level so that members can contribute; if u think that a certain user is vandalising, warn him/her, and if he/she did not stop try banning, but please do not prohibit contributions by registered users. Thanx in advance. One last pharaoh (talk) 14:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The Map

The Map shows the land situation after the war is wrong. Gaza were captured during 1967 not 1973 and the land west of the canal contains city Suez and Ismaillia that Israel failed to captured. --24.211.162.187 (talk) 20:16, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Result of Yom Kippur

The result of this war is incorrect, it should be changed to an Israeli victory. Despite the UN resolution ended the war, the Israelis prevented all surrounding Arab armies from achieving there goal of destroying the state of Israel. Furthermore when the treaty was signed, Israeli tanks were only 40 kilometers away from capturing Damascus and on the Egyptian front the IDF has crossed the Suez canal and were only 101 Kilometers away from capturing Cairo. I propose changing the result too: Decisive Israeli Victory leading to UNSCR 338. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elikowaz (talk • contribs) 04:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

There is no evidence provided in this article the goal of this war was to destroy Israel. (It may have been one of the ultimate goals of some of the people involved, but there is no evidence they expected to achieve it with this particular war.) In reality, the primary goal appears to have been to retake territory (which failed), to convince Israel they had no choice but to aim for peace with their neighbours which would include some degree of give-and-take rather then the previous policy of doing whatever the hell they want (which partially succeeded), to avenge for the losses in the Six-Day war (which partially succeeded) and to increase the stature and support base for the various leaders involved (which succeeded). In any case, this is all too POV for the infobox, the article discusses the situation fairly well. Unless the other parties surrended, which they did not, then the most accurate NPOV way to describe the situation is as is done now, the outcome was the ceasefire. Nil Einne (talk) 09:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

the eyptian, and syrain "aided by arabs" ampitions, and results were not the same

maybe it was one war for israel, but the situation on each front was way different than the other. the arabs lost that war, but the egyptians did not why?

• regain foot hold in the sinai for paving the way for latter negotiations that could result on regaining the whole sinai again. Success.

in fact, saying that israel was about to capture cairo is very ridiculous since the IDF could not, and would not have even reached it. the IDF struggled to pass through a narrow lightly-defended gap between the two egyptian armies that crossed, failed to hold the Suez cities to the end of the war, and did not advance to meat the first army, and independent battalion, or destroy the 3rd egyptian army as claimed that it had the ability to do so. it even did not succeed in stopping the food supplies for it, since the egyptians threatened with the fate of the israeli pows "exceeding 340". at the end, the israelis did not repel the attack, and recapture the lost bank of the canal, did not succeed in destroying the egyptian armies, did not succeed in holding the canal cities to the end of the war, and did not succeed in reaching cairo, not even capturing it. the matter of that they were some 110 km from it does not mean any thing, since the egyptian royal forces were about 30km from telaviv in 1948. However, we cannot say that israel had a complete failure in the egyptian front, neither that egypt had a complete victory, because of the gape; but surely we cannot say that israel had victory in the egyptian from, neither that egypt was defeated. One last pharaoh (talk) 06:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

israel was far from victory if you have read the book "harb octobar documents" you would have understood that therer were plans to close the gab and eventually a four sides attack would have been lanchued at the israeli divisons in the west and by the way the missile shield which had been torn was replaced by a better one not to mention that the iaf was in no shape to get airsuperiority so i think it was a strategic victory for Egypt as idf was simply handicaped in the egyptian front so either you let it like that or change it to Egyptian strategic victory —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightshadow 2007 (talk • contribs) 14:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

this article seems to be strongly biased

I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the history of Israel or its relationship with the Arab World, but when I came into this article and one of the very first things I read was,

"The Arab World, which had been humiliated by the lopsided defeat of the Egyptian-Syrian-Jordanian alliance during the Six-Day War, felt psychologically vindicated by its string of victories early in the conflict, despite the endstate."

I cant help but notice a gross abundance of emotional and strongly-opinionated language, all with a lack of citation, which seems to boldly personify and then psychologically assess a diverse group of people, who, if it was even possible to personify and then asses in that way, would probably have a bit more complex range of emotions than "humiliated" and subsequently "vindicated".

Describing the entire arab world which such broad and emotionally-charged strokes seems like something that belongs nowhere near an encyclopedia. I'm baffled at how this is accepted, and with no citation at that. Usually I just edit things like that out of articles, but this seems to be a featured article with many contributors, so I decided to make this post instead.

69.14.90.87 (talk) 20:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually the World Book Encyclopedia Year Book for 1973 characterized the war using those exact words. "Humiliated" by the 1967 defeat. "Vindicated" by the 1973 performance. But then characterizting the Battle of Cannae as a "humilitating" Roman defeat would seem step over the NPOV line as well. Or we can just acknowledge the limits to historical revisionism and recognize that contemporary sources sometimes do get it right the first time.216.181.47.130 (talk) 20:47, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how an encyclopedia from 35 years ago would be classified as "contemporary," but none-the-less, if such strong psychological (and, in my opinion, biased) language is accepted, it would at least be nice to cite it in the article? (I'm the original author of this discussion section (69.14.90.87) posting under a different IP, by the way) 152.160.58.175 (talk) 21:20, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

My apologies. I thought I was making it clear that I meant contemporary to the Yom Kippur War. I mentioned it to establish what was the widely accepted mind set at the time of the conflict. Perhaps is it does reflect a bias but its hard to describe the Arabs as being "thrilled" about the outcome of the Six Day War. Nor do I find it unreasonable to assume that many Egyptians weren't feeling a sense of vindication at the performance of their army during the first 4 days of the conflict. But, hey, what do I know...You're the original author of this discussion section.216.181.47.130 (talk) 15:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Haha sorry, I didn't say "I'm the original author of this discussion section" as some kind of status thing, I was just mentioning it so it wouldn't appear that I was trying to use multiple IPs to support a position ('meatpuppeting' is what I think you guys call that). You have a good point and I am inclined to agree with you, but I just think the language seems a *tad* biased and should at least have a citation. 152.160.58.175 (talk) 22:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that struck me also - I also wondered why the enormous impact on Israeli psyche would not be discussed, if psychologizing about the Arabs is acceptable. And I'd like to know why the massive U.S. airlift that basically bailed Israel out is barely mentioned - only in passing under "lack of an Israeli pre-emptive strike" and not at all under "Participation by other states," which is all about other states participating on the Arab side. OK, there were some Cubans and Tunisians and Libyans and so forth, but none of them played a decisive role. The U.S. airlift clearly did - Israel might well have been overwhelmed without it. Freshly delivered American weapons counted for the majority of destroyed Arab tanks, and included two full squadrons of combat-ready F-4s. There seems to be a trend on Wikipedia of Israel-related "featured articles" that have these kinds of gaps and deficiencies... <eleland/talkedits> 23:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually most of the armor used by Israelis in their counter offensives on both the Egyptian and Syrian fronts came from Israeli Reserve War stocks that were mated with reservist soldiers then being mobilized. I won't deny that airlifted US equipment wasn't needed to plug holes in the Israeli order of battle, but the limiting factor on the both fronts was whether the reservist callups would be in time to staunch the arab advances. As is often pointed out, the Soviets were also engaged in their own airlifts to Syria and Egypt to replinish their war stocks as well.216.181.47.130 (talk) 16:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

But I wasn't talking about armour. I was talking about antitank weapons - freshly supplied American TOWs accounted for the majority of Egyptian tank losses - and aircraft - two full squadrons of American F-4s were flown to Israel, hastily painted over with magen davids, and flown into combat within hours. Does anybody think that the Cubans or Tunisians did anywhere near this much for Egypt? And yet we have a section called "participation by other states" which says nothing about the Americans. What is up with that? <eleland/talkedits> 07:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

That's some thing i tried to fix, but Raul654 do not seam to be very much accepting that fact. See the history tab to know what i am talking about. One last pharaoh (talk) 18:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

-It doesn't seem to be that biased upon my review, it was certainly a much, much, MUCH better result for the Egyptian and Syrian Armies than 1967 ("The Six Day War") was, which is generally perceived (and probably correctly) as an outright Arab nation rout.

With 1973 Yom Kippur, Egypt in particular, from what I have read into the subject, felt "vindicated" by the results of the conflict- in negotiations it eventually got back the entire Sinai Peninsula through the Camp David Accords, and in the actual front of the conflict, with only about 300,000 mobilized troops and 80,000 only actively crossing the Sinai border, seemed to have an extremely impressive result with their Soviet-supplied RPG-7s, Main Battle Tanks, and SA-2 and SA-6 SAM Battery systems, which, from the readings of the casualty lists and "The Cold War" (NATO Col. John Hughes-Wilson, Ret.) remarked that the SAM performance was absolutely exemplary. With Yom Kippur, the Egyptian and Syrian armies caught the IDF totally off guard and it was, seemingly, an Arab-Israeli conflict that for once started with the Arab nations first striking. And within the first 72 to 96 hours of the conflict, I had read the results were absolutely appalling to the IDF and they seriously dropped the ball on that intel of the Egyptians mobilizing in the Sinai, and the Syrians mobilizing in the Golan. Had no emergency American aid (in the form of millions of dollars of military equipment) gotten to Israel, as Col. Hughes-Wilson pointed out (and voiced by other posters), "Israel may have been totally destroyed." Or, at the best in that situation, forced into an extremely unfavorable UN ceasefire resolution with overwhelming concessions in favor of the Egyptians, Syrians, and Soviets.

As far as the "result" is concerned, I am happy and content with what is grounds of essentially a "Tactical Stalemate", which is indeed was in the Battle Tank count (an almost exact 1 to 1 kill ratio, which is probably why the war ground later to an alarming halt because in my opinion and reading experience, the IDF was used to destroying Arab armor by the absolute score.) Given the fact that seemingly highly outdated T-55s and T-62s were performing to those standards (coupled with some AT-3 Saggers and other such anti-tank help,) were performing well against Centurions and M48s, it seems like a good synopsis.

Very good casualty/equipment destroyed report. I was in a military history store yesterday and saw the *exact same* equipment loss account in a book just titled "Yom Kippur"-"The Arab-Israeli War of 1973"- 1000 destroyed Israeli tanks (600 later restored, 400 permanently lost) out of about 2000 deployed, and 2250 destroyed Arab (Syrian/Egyptian) tanks, out of about 4000-4500 deployed.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Thought I should just add them in the "Talk" section since I do not edit Wiki pages in regards to history matter (I feel there is always someone/some history buff on the subject, with better sourcing than myself) and this is only my second post in a "Talk" forum (the first was my question about the Casualty counts in the Battle of Stalingrad, which were seemingly changed to a lopsided 1.1M dead Soviets to 1.5K dead Germans- that's another discussion for another board, though.)

Thanks for reading. -Jregley —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jregley (talk • contribs) 22:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to agree with you, the article seems to be overly charged with pro-Israeli emotionalism, reinforcing the notion that History in Written by the Winners; there's no doubt in my mind that Israel achieved a tactical military victory in this war, but to brag on about that fact in a 20-page long encyclopedic article deriding Arabs while praising the IDF's bravado, courage and competence on the field is not something I want my children reading about if they feel the urge to research the Arab-Israeli conflict.

I'm very knowledgeable about the Six-Day War, the causes leading up to it, the fighting that took place, the diplomatic efforts that underpinned the Israeli victory and the geopolitical changes in the region. But all I know about Yom Kippur is what I read here, which diametrically opposes the consensus in Egypt. And I'm not surprised; this IS is a biased article in its own right. It's actually one big excerpt from Rabinovic, a highly emotional Zionist nationalist whose historical accounts are filled with more biased sentiments than Nasser's personal diary.

Whatever, this article is shameful. There's little reason to believe that there is any accuracy in the accounts of Rabinovic, and the conclusions and remarks drawn on said accounts are highly personal and emotional, almost as thought they were written by a band of Likudnik college kids with hardline views of the conflict...

But then again, if you let the Arabs take a whack at it, I suppose it would be a whole lot worse...Ahm2307 (talk) 09:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it funny how sourced informations about aiding israel were removed, while unsourced claims about aiding the other side seams to be not forming a problem here?

Isn't it hilarious that i get a warning for including a neutrality disputed tag to the article after this long discussion that not one disagree that the article is biased?

The article should include a neutrality-disputed tag untill the issue is solved, who does not agree? One last pharaoh (talk) 20:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

A weak have pased, yet no opposition what so ever !

3 more days people, please say your opinion. One last pharaoh (talk) 21:04, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be under the impression that a lack of interest in commenting here implies support for your desire to tag this article. This is false. This article has passed the FA process, which means that it is neutral, your own biased claims not withstanding.

Furthermore, your presence on this article has been wholly negative - you have consistnetly made detrimental edits - badly written, uncited or cited to poor sources, making claims that are outright false. If you continue to disrupt this article, I am going to follow up on my previous warning to you. Raul654 (talk) 21:45, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

All of those people said that the article is biased and u say that that's my biased claim ?!!

Who do u think ur self are? the owner of this article or some thing? guess what, no one does -wikipedia is a cooperative work of editors- !

Who gave u the right to describe my edits in such a way? well...what have u done? u did not even "fix" them, u only deleted the whole contribution just because of ur point of view, and claimed that it was poorly sourced.

It seams that u and only u is opposing the tagging, there for i am creating a hole new sub-article now and let's wait to the end of the hole month and see what those editors think. One last pharaoh (talk) 00:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

This article is fuming with bias; 13 Israeli sources to one Arab source! This is very disappointing. Some of the information about the war is not only obviously biased, but is illogical. Has anyone read the article about the Battle of Ofira (written wholly from Israeli sources), where supposedly some 20+ Mig-17s and Mig-21s faced 2 Israeli Phantoms, and the result: 8 Migs were shot down, and no Israeli casualties! This is ridiculous. I have seen pictures in Egyptian books of Egyptian Migs engaging against Israeli air forces, and pictures of Israeli Jets being shot down, not by SAM missiles, but by Mig fighters. These were not exceptions. Even the Arab casualties are written from either Israeli sources, or Western sources. What about Arab sources? To say that the Israelis were positioned to capture Cairo is absurd. There were not enough Israeli troops on the West side of the Suez to destroy the third army, let alone contend with the 220,000 Egyptian troops who had not crossed the canal and were on the Western part of the canal, let alone "threaten" Cairo. Official Egyptian military sources say that the army was ready to perform a counter-attack and eliminate whatever Israeli forces had crossed the canal. After all, the Israelis were only able to perform such a maneuver with the aid of the Americans, first and foremost in the form of the massive US airlift which not only replenished Israeli losses but also bolstered the Israelis. This fact is greatly neglected in the article. Egyptian sources also state that this Israeli success was made possible to a large degree by US intelligence.

Official Egyptian history states that once the canal had been crossed, the Egyptians wanted to end the war, but as the Syrians were facing setbacks on the Golan, Sadat prolonged the war to relieve pressure off his ally. He was ready to remain in the war even longer, and was ready to counter-attack the Israeli penetration, but the interference of the Americans in the form of millions of dollars of financial and military aid, the Soviet pressure, and the UN cease-fire resolution, prompted Egypt to end the war.

I agree, this article is one big excerpt from Rabinovic, and it needs a serious rewrite, and it must include more Arabic sources, such as the Egyptian government's official history of the war, and the Syrian history as well. All battles related to this article need to be revised, especially the Ofira battle, also, why is there no article about the crossing? This is a battle in it's own right is it not? It is an important one as well. What about the Mansourah battle? It too is not mentioned in Wiki, even though it was an important battle (see Egyptian Air Force). The Egyptian, Syrian and Iraqi casualties need to be separated as well. Sherif9282 (talk) 20:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Gentelmen, I will try to respond to some of the claims raised in the above discussion. I will start by saying that I am from Israel, and most of my knowledge of the 67 and 73 wars is from Israeli sources. I do know that Egyptian sources paint the war from an entirlyh different perspective and I do not claim to know who won and who lost, too many emotions are are invloved in this question. Personaly, I think that there are no winners in wars, only loosers. To the point... Obejctively, this war started with tactical victories to Syria and Egypt, and ended with tactical victories to Israel in both fronts. I doubt that any of the participants, even with material support from Soviet Union or USA could further push their positions and 'really' win anything. So let's start by saying that nobody won. conquering a 10km strip in the Siani, overpowering roughly 500 soldiers with 20 times more infantry is not a sign of military genious. Nor is it intelligent to hold a 500km front with only 500 soldiers... I could go on and point similar mistakes in the Golan made by both sides. So what am I trying to say?

1. Both sides are biased. I think Egypt and Syria both exagarate in their claims, calling this a victory, and Israel is wrong in calling this war a defeat. As the war halted, it was a draw. Egypt had some surprises for Israel (i.e. the achieving the strategic surprise, using new SAM's, anti tank AT-7's, breaching the canal obstacles and accomplishing the crossing - these were impressive moves).

2. Israeli army, tanks and especially the IAF were far more effective than the combined armies of Syria and Egypt. Look objectively at the numbers and the final results - strategic surprise and tactical victories, ending with territorial losses and huge losses in men and equipment. As to the claims that Israel was within striking distance from Damascus and Cairo... come on, these are bullshit bravado claims and can be deleted. At any given moment the IAF could strike anywhere it wanted to (as it did, hitting the Syrian High Command building in the heart of Damascus).

3. There are two claims made here that I personally must repond to. First, the Ofira air battle did happen, but it was only 7 downed migs. Secind, the El-Mansourah air battle never happened. I personally know pilots who flew in the 73 war, I asked them and got some raised brows... I have yet to see a single piece of hard evidence produced by the egyptians (15 downed F-4 are 30 dead and captured pilots, where are they?). The Israeli air force did suffer losses, but mainly from SAM missiles and not from Egyptian migs. Do some research about IAF losses (not official Israeli sites), there was only one F-4 lost on the 14th, both crew ejected above Israeli territory and were recovered.

4. As to the quantity of Israeli sources vs Egytian sources - Egypt was and in many ways still is a totalitarian state (I am sorry if I offend anyone, it's NOT a democracy and there the government has a large degree of control over the flow of information). The academic world of Israel is full of researchers who looked at this war from almost every aspect - from the politicians' mistakes, to the army generals', and to individual battles fought. I have yet to see this amount of words written objectively from Syrian or Egyptian researchers, especially views that critique their leadership as much as Israeli researchers do. I challange any of you to publish criticism about your presidents. So, please contribute academic references to counter any bias, instead of complaining about the lack of sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.183.242.65 (talk) 07:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Let me say that you have bring life back to this section. There is more than one point that i disagree with you about here, but let me respond to only two for now at least; The Mansourah battle did take place, and if you asked some war time pilots of israel, and got raised brows, Dr. David Niclle is a good source, besides the war time Egyptian pilots who would probably give more than raised brows, when asked about the battle. A C I G . com is a good reference if you want to read more. About the 30 downed pilots, president Hosni Mubarak stated that the egyptian command was easy with the Israelis about "the bodies they took from the delta"; call him a liar if you want, but let me say that in jet aircrafts the downed pilot do not have to die, ha can eject; here ACIG stated some thing about a downed IAF pilot that ejected safely, and was taken to hospital. AnwarElsadat . com has some pics of Israel POWs if you want to be sure. Israel have stated that the battle took place, changed the estimates for it's loses, and finally denied the battle -see ACIG-.

Now, about the Offira battle, it's talk page contains some explanations about why is it logically impossible in the first place, Egypt never stated that it happened -Egypt stated that the armoured attack in day 14 was rebelled with sever loses, so i think they would have mentioned this one too if it took place-, and no non israeli/pro-israeli reliable source was found that states that it happened. One last pharaoh (talk) 14:41, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the quick reply, I wasn't sure anyone will see this... I'll start by saying that I am glad we don't seem to have a difference of opinions about my basic belief (that as in all wars, in this one there were no real winners...), all we have is an argument about a couple of skirmishes between some fighter jocks, that in the big picture do not have a real meaning.

So, after I read your comment I went back and asked my father what his memories are from that time and about these incidents. He was an F-4 pilot during that war and actually participated in an attack on Mansourah a few days prior to the 14th, however, it was never in the magnitude described (over 100 IAF fighters), just 2 formations totaling about 4 to 8 jets trying to punch holes in the runways. Incidently, he was shot down on the 14th during a 'routine' attacks on the Suez bridges. He was hit by SA3 or SA6 and managed to eject safely over Israel.

Unfortunately, he has no memory of a huge attack, nor of the IAF loosing 17 fighters in a single mission or of missing 30 or so pilots in a single day. I do not think that 35 years after the war he would still try to hide a huge cover-up if there was one, in the last 15 years, every year the newpapers here are full of stories about mistakes that were made during the war, every year around Yom Kippor. Including infantry, armour and IAF losses (there is a famous story about the 'One' squadron, loosing 7 fighters in a single sortie in the northern front, so I do not think anyone in trying to protect the airforce or people in it). As to the Ofira battle, I'll get back to you on that one, but I'm pretty sure that the Mansourah attack, at least as described by the EAF, never took place.

Winning or loosing, it was a traumatic war here. Although casualties were not the highest the IDF sustained, the shock and the huge gap between the public expectations vs the initial outcome of the first week or so, caused an outcry that led to the change in government a few years later. It also had an impact on the Egyptian public and leadership that enabled the Camp David peace accords that hold to this day. We can argue about how warm that peace is, but the fact is that no soldiers lost their lives in hostilities since then, and that Sharem El-Sheikh is a tourist hot-spot and an economic success for Egypt, so if there is anything that we need to learn from this, is that although we can disagree on details, the large picture is positive and from time to time we need to look at it and remind ourselves that both sides, we, suffered and that those days should never be allowed to come back.

I am not saying that your father is a liar, but actually the IAF did not strike using all of it's attacking force at once. they came in formations, so yes he may have attacked in a formation of 4-8 air crafts, but that was not every thing, only a small scale of the general attack. I have given you the sources that makes me believe the mansourah battele took place, so i disagree with you about it did not take place.

No doubt that the war was a strategic victory to both Egypt, and israel, specially Egypt -Israel did not get much more than it already had before the war-.

Stating the facts of history does not mean that we hope it rewinds.

Personally, i live, and study with non muslims every day -Christians-, and have friends of them, so mainly i am tolerant with non muslim societies, and individuals specially people of the book in general, and christians specially. That means that i am not against a jewish society, i am only against a zionist one -i think you know the difference between both of them-. If i continued with that, i would probably take about as far as the establishment of israel, and i think this is not the right place for that, but the general idea is that for one, i do not have any problem with a jewish society that live in tolerance, and peace with it's Muslim, and christian nighpors, but i do not accept the presence of a zionist society that lives in constant wars with it's neighbors -and let me tell you some thing, that series of wars has 2 possible scenarios; either Israel manages to defeat all of it's neighbors, and be the largest country in the middle east, or that israel get overcome by it's neighbors, and vanish; but i would like a scenario where israel get rid of zionists, and live in peace with it's neighbors.- . One last pharaoh (talk) 18:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Edits

I have done some additions to the sub-part "In the Sinai", based on official US documents concerning the war, and they can be found at http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB98/ . I have also taken into account the views that the financial, military and intelligence aid provided to Israel by the US was understated in the article. Definitely other parts of this article need to be updated from these documents, and we also need to bring forward official Egyptian and Syrian reports on the war. Hopefully this is the beginning for some serious improvements to this article. Sherif9282 (talk) 16:13, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I also added some details about the crossing of the canal, and this I got from http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1998/398/oct12.htm. Sherif9282 (talk) 17:44, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The sub-section on Egypt's third army needs to be changed. "Egypt was totally dependent on the United States to prevent Israel from destroying its trapped army...As a result, the United States exerted tremendous pressure on the Israelis to refrain from destroying the trapped army". That Israel was able to destroy the Third army is debatable, as it is not clear how many Israeli units had crossed the canal (probably dew since by the end of the war only 4 bridges were made across the canal). What information was used to say that Egypt was "totally dependent" on the US? More high ranking Egyptian officials than not revealed immediately after the war that a major counter-offensive was ready to be carried out to eliminate Israeli units that had exploited the opening, cross the canal and seal the gap on the Eastern side of the canal. Keep in mind that there were nearly 220,000 Egyptian forces that had not yet crossed the canal. However political pressure on Egypt from not only the US and the UN, but also from the USSR forced Egypt to accept a cease-fire. The map depicting the gap is also misleading because the Israelis were never able to enter or capture Suez; the city was successfully defended by and remained in Egyptian hands throughout the war. Sherif9282 (talk) 10:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

"Self made map" ?!

Seams the article is using a "self-made map" that has no thing to do with neutrality. On which basis was that map considered reliable ? besides, it shows a grave history error showing that israel held parts of egypt as a result of the war -the "held by israel after the yom kippur war" parts-. Incase no free reliable map is available, a non reliable map that shows personal view rather than facts should not be used

Suggestions? One last pharaoh (talk) 12:29, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The map is a line drawing of now-deleted File:Jom kippur war.jpg, which came from the polish Wikipedia, which got it from the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. So yes, the image comes from a reliable source. Raul654 (talk) 20:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, right !

Are you sure u have actually read the description of it? ofcourse you did since u are the one who used the perfectly matching description "self-made".

Let me make it easier; here is the link to the map's description page on the commons http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Yom_Kippur_War_map.svg

If the map is based on another version that is not self-made by a wikipedian, that is reliable, and that is neutral, the source image it self should be used not a self-made version claimed to be based upon it.

It's just like providing a link that does not work as a source of an information.

This "Self-Made" image is made by an editor, and is not sourced since the assumed source is now deleted. To fix that, we need to find the source it self, OR another reliable neutral source.

BTW, how can the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs be used as a neutral source in this article any way ? One last pharaoh (talk) 12:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware it's tagged as self made -- I'm the one who made it. As I already said, it is a line drawing - which means that I took another map, traced the lines on that map, and recolored it, to avoid copyright issues. Nothing in the content of the map actually changed. And yes, the Israeli ministry of Foreign affairs is a reliable source. Raul654 (talk) 18:45, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I was very clear, but let me explain that again

The Israeli ministry of Foreign affairs is not a neutral source for this kind of articles -ie. the ones about conflicts directly involving israel-, however it can be used as a reliable source only when the statements it is used to source is highlighted as "according to israel".

About the map, i think that i stated the proposition very clearly; find a link to the assumed source, or find a free map that comes from a reliable, and neutral source.

Some thing to be mentioned, is that we are still in the first step of actually finding the source, if it was found, we should move to the step of checking it's reliability. Once done, checking it's neutrality is the final step.

A Lot of work eh? let's do it. One last pharaoh (talk) 21:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want to do that, and you find one that is superior to the one already in the article, go ahead. However, until you do, the map we already have is more than suffecient. Raul654 (talk) 21:47, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I have said it twice, and i am saying it again; Where is the source ? One last pharaoh (talk) 10:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Participation by other states

that section is beyond being biased ! as if not mentioning the american air lift that changed the outcome of the war was not enough, the informations about the participation by other states is not accurate with words like "dozens", and "squadrons" used instead of accurate numbers. that makes them non neutral claims that needs to be removed incase it was not changed to accurate neutral informations. One last pharaoh (talk) 12:37, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Right, there is no mention of United States participation. They not only provided aid in finance and equipment, but also provided the Israelis with all the intelligence they needed. I haven't seen any mention in Egyptian history of Cuban and Ugandan soldiers participating in the war either. Also, Israel had around 2,300 tanks at the beginning of the war, not 1,500, here is the proof: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB98/octwar-21a.pdf. The casualties suffered by either party in the war should be reviewed as well. Sherif9282 (talk) 09:01, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I have read the file, and i think it says they had 1,800 not 1,500 but not 2,300. That is a very reliable source that should be used. One last pharaoh (talk) 12:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

No you misunderstood. The IDF had 1,800 tanks remaining after they lost 500. This source, and the other US documents I have listed at the external links section on US policy during the war should be used to detail the US airlift to Israel. Do you have a source on Israeli casualties and Egyptian casualties? Sherif9282 (talk) 13:45, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest renaming the article to October War, as the current name is not neutral, any comments? Sherif9282 (talk) 13:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Renaming this article has been suggested and rejected multiple times. No, we will not be doing that. Raul654 (talk) 18:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

We need to find out how many IDF units were in Bar Lev at the start of the war. It is written there was only one battalion, but I don't think so. They are not enough to man the fortifications. Furthermore, there were armored counterattacks against the Egyptian troops that had crossed. They came soon after the beginning of the attack, which means there were reserve troops behind the Bar Lev line (there were artillery strikes against tank concentrations behind the line), and there were reserve troops, but how many? David Elazar had also made a limited call-up on reserves on Oct 5, so some of these reserves might have reinforced the Golan and Sinai before the attacks began. After the attack began, 100,000 were mobilized on October 6 http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB98/octwar-18.pdf. These probably participated in counter attacks on the same day, especially in the Golan. Sherif9282 (talk) 14:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

You are correct about the manpower on the bar lev line. I rechecked, and Rabinovich (pg 7) says the Bar Lev line was manned by the Jerusalem brigade, not battalion. Raul654 (talk) 22:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe that Rual654's last changes to the article need to be explained, since he have deleted sourced informations. assuming good faith, he did not intend to vandalize the article, yet his deletion of sourced informations needs to be explained.

Unless ofcourse it was an intended vandalism. One last pharaoh (talk) 21:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I have already told you once, I have neither the time nor energy to follow behind you, repairing your bad writing. If you are incapable of following Wikipedia's guidelines with regard to citing information to reliable sources in an inline fashion, using Wikipedia's citation style, and presenting ideas in a succinct, ordered manner (that is, mentioning US aid in the section about participation of other countries; mentioning the Egyptian-related facts in the egyption section; etc) then do not edit this article or complain when your damaging edits are removed. All the more so given that this is already a featured article. Raul654 (talk) 22:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT YOUR DELETION OF SOURCED INFORMATIONS ? One last pharaoh (talk) 10:26, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I have been experiencing some connection problems, but have now returned. Concerning the article's name, forgive me Raul654, but I wasn't here when it was discussed, so I think can reopen that discussion. Using the name Yom Kippur War is Israeli POV, and using the name Ramadan War is Arab POV. Using the name October War is nobody's POV, it would be neutral and more suited to the article. Just because this is already a featured article doesn't mean it doesn't require improvements, which I think is the case. I have also edited the paragraph concerning the Israeli Brigade on the Bar Lev Line. I hardly think that around 4,000 soldiers would be vastly outnumbered and overwhelmed by the initial attacking force of 8,000 soldiers, which by the way, is the force that captured these defences, not the subsequent reinforcements, see http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1998/398/oct12.htm. The troops which crossed the canal thereafter were five infantry divisions and around 500 tanks, not 100,000 troops. Using the term division is more accurate. The aforementioned link states several estimates which I will state in the article. One last thing Raul654, this article will not change overnight; it's going to take a lot of time, so if you don't have the energy or the time to devote to this article, then I suggest that someone who does have the time and energy to do so takes over your position. More than once you have taken action independently without relating your views and opinions to anyone, reverting my edits several times for instance without telling me why, even though if you had told me the problem would have been solved (as in the in-line citing of sources). Concerning the sub-section on US support to Israel, I find my writing to have been quite well, and I don't understand what you found "bad" about it. If my writing was so intolerable, you could have simply rectified it; you had no reason in my opinion to delete sourced information that was very, very reliable and beyond doubt. Furthermore, why are my external links at the end of the article being deleted?

At any rate, I think we should re-discuss whether or not to rename the article, and I suppose the article would make use of a few pictures. Well? Sherif9282 (talk) 21:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

(1) The name of this article has been discussed many many many many many many times before. Discussion of that topic is closed - the article will remain exactly as it is currently titled.

(2) I'm all for adding more pictures to this article, I just don't know where to find any with copyright status acceptable on Wikipedia. If you do, by all means, add some.

(3) The comment above about bad writing was not directed at you, Sherif9282. It was directed at One last pharaoh, whose previous edits to this article have been highly detrimental. Your edits have been better, which is why I went through the time consuming process of fixing them, although you must learn to use correct mediawiki citation style (using the <ref> and </ref> tags)

Does that mean that all the times you raised the protection level of the article -without discussion-, ignored other users opinions, deleted sourced informations -without discussion also-, and giving warnings to a user for adding cited informations, were because you did not consider their contributions good enough ?

If so, you have severely violated wikipedia's rules by "owning" the article. Take it as a friendly advice: Try to improve your attitude with other editors. One last pharaoh (talk) 16:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Why do not you say what was wrong with the contribution you provided a link for? was it completely wrong, and required being deleted? because that is the only reason that gives any one the right to revert an contribution, right? One last pharaoh (talk) 16:59, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, BTW why do not you click that little (next page) several times? maybe you would see that i made a contribution, i deleted an unsourced part, and then you deleted the rest of it -the sourced part-. One last pharaoh (talk) 16:59, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

4) As for the number that crossed, your own source says 8,000 followed by 80,000 more, which I summarized as "approximately 100,000". Raul654 (talk) 22:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I have read another paper http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1997/Moulton.htm on the war. If you read the sub-section on the results of the October war, third paragraph, you will read that the Israeli counter-attack on Oct 8 numbered up to three brigades, not one brigade as mentioned in the article. I am going to add this, but we need to find at least one other source. There is something very important as well. Saad El-Shazly's book on the war says that Egypt had Mi-24 Hind gunships which it used in the war. While I did not find this written anywhere else, I think that source is sufficient for mentioning that piece of information in the article. As you can see, the USAF Major who wrote the paper mentioned above used the name October War. I have another paper by another US officer which uses The Arab-Israeli War of 1973. Yom Kippur War is a POV name, because this article is not made just for Western readers with whom the name is popular, it is made for readers all over the world including Arabs like myself. In the Arab world the Ramadan War is the most commonly used name, but using that here is POV as well. October War is neutral. However, this is not a priority at the moment so I will leave the matter for now. Since I have the time and energy I will fix One Last Pharoah's edits and find some reliable sources, because I have encountered this incident several times in Egyptian History of the war written by officers. Sherif9282 (talk) 08:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the Mi-24 Hind, our own article states clearly that its first combat use was in 1977, and does not list Egypt as an operator, at all. So no, Saad El-Shazly's book is not good enough, since it contradicts other articles. Canadian Monkey (talk) 03:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I've tweaked the statements about the Israeli counter-attack on October 8. In short - Abraham Adan's division (3 brigades) was ordered to counter-attack. One of them was stuck in a traffic jam, and the other two were each at half-strength. (Rabinovich, 235). I've tweaked the article accordingly. Raul654 (talk) 04:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Look CanadianMonkey, Saad El Shazly was chief of staff during the war, I hardly think he would make such a mistake. Perhaps your article is wrong. Perhaps I am mistaken rather; I found this information on the internet as an excerpt taken from a book, but it was not clear if it was El Shazly's book. Raul654, if you had read my source carefully you will have seen that there is a mention of an Israeli attack on Oct 7: "The following day, we succeeded in moving the bridgeheads an additional four kilometers eastwards, in spite of a powerful enemy assault." The "following day" refers to Oct 7. I will mention this in the article. Sherif9282 (talk) 07:59, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, i am happy that finally Raul654 is concerning active participation in discussion pages. Since this section have turned into discussing the article in general, who thinks that the unsourced map mentioned in the above section should stay ? One last pharaoh (talk) 16:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• Certainly not me. Sherif9282 (talk) 19:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
• Me neither. One last pharaoh (talk) 16:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

So it will be removed, but before we do so, we must obtain another map as Raul654 said, one which is reliable and clear. Until we do so, the current map should remain. Could you get such a map One Last Pharoah? Besides that, I just wanted to say that the progress that has been done on this article has been relatively significant, though there is still much more to be done. But so far, several Egyptian sources have been added. We still need to add some Syrian sources, if only some Syrians would help with this article. We also need to make some work on attached articles, such as the article on the crossing, and we need to make an article about the Air battle of El-Mansourah. But first comes first. Sherif9282 (talk) 17:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

We d not have to wait for syrian editors, any one can add any source. I think that the map is not neutral, and most probably unreliable, besides the fact of being unsourced.......what more should any attached file be to prohibit it from being used in an article, specially a featured one?

The article already contain maps for the war. this certain map is not critical in the article, and until we find another that is neutral, reliably sourced, and free, the article wont lose a useful information by removing the mentioned map, since it does not represent a neutral point of view and there for is damaging the article. Actually the map contains wrong claims that are proved to be wrong by this very article -what i mentioned about the "parts held by israel after the war" areas-.

Ofcourse, all of that mess can be solved if Raul654, or any other editor provided a source for it. One last pharaoh (talk) 22:27, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

UH, no. The map is reliably sourced (to the Israeli Foreign affairs ministry, by way of the polish wikipedia, although I do not have acces to the deleted image revisions on the polish Wikipedia). The map will stay until you find a better one. Raul654 (talk) 03:48, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I do not think you are following here.....No one said that the Israeli Foreign Affairs ministry in not a reliable source -however, no doubt it is not neutral in this article-. The point is that, how can we be sure that the map actually did come from the source you say it comes from -no offence- ?

You have been asked to provide a source, which in this case would be a link to the supposed original map. One last pharaoh (talk) 11:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

One Last Pharoah is right, Israeli Foreign Affairs ministry may be a reliable sources, but it certainly is not neutral. I think the map should be removed, even before we find another map. It is misleading, and damaging to the article. That's my opinion. Anyways, I will be receiving three books at the end of this month made by different Egyptian authors who participated in the war. The authors are Saad El Shazly, Abdel Ghani El Gammasy, and Hssan El Badri. These should provide me with a plethora of info to add to the article.

By the way Raul654, I have reversed your edit to the article because this call for an end to the fighting came on Oct 9, not 8. Sherif9282 (talk) 18:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. If the Israeli Foreign Affairs ministry is really the source for the claims on that map, it should not be used as a reliable, neutral map that describes facts -the way it currently is used-. The only way to use it is that the Israeli Foreign Affairs ministry be nominated as it's source, or any other way, so that it's known that it represents an Israeli point of view, not a neutral one.

That means that even if the map was reliably sourced -some thing that still did not happen-, it still has to be moved. One last pharaoh (talk) 22:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

There is another important issue to be addressed. About the Soviet and American airlifts. As far as I know, the few times I have read of the Soviet airlift in books mentions nothing more than an airlift to resupply ammunition on a small scale, not to replenish losses. The only source used in the article is Rabinovich, which is biased. At any rate, the Soviet airlift is by no means comparable to the American airlift, which some consider to have bailed out Israel. So the American airlift cannot have been a response to the Soviet airlift. It is clear from US documents that this airlift was in response to Israeli blunders on the battlefield. I will adjust the article accordingly.

Also, you need reliable, unbiased sources to say that the Soviet airlift replenished Egypt and Syria's losses in tanks, aircraft and weaponry. Another point; Israel did receive immediate supplies, before October 13, in the form of aircraft.Sherif9282 (talk) 18:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I remember reading some thing about that the soviet supplies never reached Egypt. It was supposed to, but some thing happened....unavailability of transporting vessels from the port the soviets downed their supplies or some thing like that; so all the supplies sent were used by syria, and non reached egypt.

I do not have any source for that, but maybe some one else can come up with some thing. Also, i remember very clearly reading an article in Al-Ahram that mentioned that the soviets did not even sent tires for jet aricrafts wheels ! One last pharaoh (talk) 22:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

On the airlifts, it is clear form both American documents and other sources that this was in response to the Soviet airlift. See for example, Detente and Confrontation, by Garthoff, p.414:

"the two powers then began in parallel to resupply the two sides with arms and munitions (the Soviet Union from October 10 on, the United States from October 12 on). p. 415: "From October 6 to 13 the Soviet leaders...promptly began an airlift of arms to Syria and Egypt.. Footnote 38: "On the American side, the chief factor determining the amount of the arms supply was at least to match the size of the Soviet effort.". There are many sources that say the same thing = please don;t removed sourced material from the article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 14:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

"please don;t removed sourced material from the article.", was that directed to me ?One last pharaoh (talk) 21:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

No, no. This was directed at me, though it is wrong; the material was not reliably sourced. Sherif9282 (talk) 10:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It is not wrong. Rather, you and One last pharaoh have a fundamental misunderstanding of Wikipedia's reliable sources policy. Rabinovich is an historian, and the material is sourced to his book published by a mainstream press - which meets our guidelines with regards to reliable sources. Rabinovich might be biased - that's your opinion - but every source is biased in some way. There is no requirement in WP:RS to use "neutral" sources, whatever that means in this context. Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

What source ?!

Reliable sources can be used. it's not about weather it is used or not it is about where, and how is it used. In a conflict that directly involves israel, a pro-israeli source can be used to represent a pro-israeli point of view, not a neutral point of view. One last pharaoh (talk) 18:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

That the Soviets provided an airlift of military supplies to Syria and Egypt is not 'a pro-israeli point of view' - it is a well documented historical fact. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

What on earth are you saying?! When I mentioned the American airlift, I used unquestionable sources; documents detailing conversations between Kissinger and Dinitz, clearly showing that the airlift was carried out due to Israeli losses on the field, not in reply to the Soviet airlift. So I don't see how it can be a well documented historical fact using solely Israeli sources. I also mentioned statistics. What statistics do you, or Rabinovich, have? Furthermore, what sources does Rabinovich use to support his claims? This airlift has no mention whatsoever in Egyptian and Syrian sources. More importantly, it has no mention in Soviet sources, as far as I know. Indicating it never even happened or was so small in scale as to be negligible.

In all probability, if I had mentioned the American airlift from, say, Saad El-Shazly's book, you would have neglected it as biased, non-neutral, or even unreliable, even though El-Shazly would be a more reliable source than someone like Rabinovich; he was actually involved in the war. But then even I agree that I can't use Arab sources to claim that the Americans airlifted 22,000 tons of materiel to Israel. Knowing this, I brought American sources to the article. What do you have? Israeli sources? If you want to detail Israeli operations in the Golan or the Sinai and use Rabinovich for a source, be my guest. But you can't claim that the Soviets made a massive airlift to Egypt and Syria using an Israeli source, because it wouldn't be neutral, and in such a case, the source would lose its reliability. Rabinovich is not a reliable source for writing this kind of information in the article. Sherif9282 (talk) 20:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks like Rabinovich needs a third party source ? [[4]]

I've provided an impeccable reliable source, Sachar, in addition to Rabinovich, which says the same thing, including using the word "massive" to describe the airlift. If you persist in the nonsensical claim that Rabinovich is not a reliable source, or that it is a "self-published" source, I strongly advise you to familiarize yourself with our basic policies regarding sources before you continue to edit, as it is clear that you do not know what they say.Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

"our basic policies..."  ?!

would you explain to me how rabinovich is not considered a self-published source, please ?

I have stated that Rabinovich can be considered a reliable source in certain ways, but not a neutral one. did you miss that !

I want to direct your attention to that you have just broken one rule regarding treating other editors, and came very close to break another using "The our". would you consider that a friendly advice? Thanx in advance. One last pharaoh (talk) 21:48, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

This article does not deserve to be featured. The article should be revied Wikipedia:Featured article review One last pharaoh (talk) 20:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to take it to Wikipedia:Featured article review. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, i wonder what would Raul654 do, do not you ? One last pharaoh (talk) 21:48, 12 October 2008 (UTC)