Talk:Socialism

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Earlier discussions:

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• /Archive 2
• /Socialism and Nazism -- archive of extensive discussion on this topic from Jan 2004. Also includes the discussion that resulted in a bullet list of types of socialism (the two issues were intertwined). Inevitably, other topics were also touched on, but I have endeavored to leave in the present page the few clearly unrelated exchanges on the present page during that very heated period. -- Jmabel 09:29, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
• /Archive 3
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• /Archive 5
• /Archive 6

"Pure" socialism

I'm of the opinion that everyone's basic needs should be met. That's a little simplistic but as far as I can tell, there is no Version of socialism that fits. Is this a new thing, where the particulars of how that's to be carried out are a seperate issue? Is this covered under some other more philisophical than political name? Please let me know, or perhaps it's time to remove the baggage from "socialism" and let it be important for humanist rather than historical reasons.

Please respond: Advocate@gmail.com

I think this article should start wiht a dictionary definition so that the topic is known. As for your question the welfare state was a (german 19th century) compromise between capitalism and socialism created for that purpose 71.192.98.234 23:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Nazism

"while Nazis rejected the internationalism, egalitarianism and social class-oriented perspective of the socialists. (See: Nazism and Socialism)."

Nazism and Socialism no longer exists. Though I should also note the bias noted before, that Nazis didn't reject "social class-oriented perspectives" of socialists. As in Triumph of the Will where Hitler states "There must be no class distinctions among our people; never let such notions take root among you." echoed many times like in Dieter Schwarz's critque of Freemasonry in an SS publication; "National Socialism stands for unconditional duty and responsibility. The world view of National Socialism is Nordic; that of the Freemason is Asiatic-Jewish. The National Socialistic position is racially conscious; that of the lodges, anti-racial and pro-Jewish. The communality of National Socialism is the living feature of racially related types, the racial community, not the caste system and clique of interests of the bourgeoisie organized in the lodges. National Socialism contrasts an unconditional racial nationalism against the cosmopolitan internationalism of Freemasonry". Any similar Nazi quote is the same on matter of their ideology; anti-bourgeoisie, anti-monarchist. Pro-egalitarian within their own nationality. A reduction to equality of a racial matter; i.e. making everyone racially equal, can be seen as the whole rational of Nazism down to the holocaust. Certainly not Leninist, but more socialist inspired than Italian Fascist inspired for certain. Nagelfar 17:52, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It's a good point. Go ahead and add it :) -- infinity0 13:02, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes and no. I would agree that yes, as with many ideologies across the board, there are common themes. But, even if you can resolve the two (racial) as ideologically egalitarian, the Nazis took completely different approaches: insofar as you're arguing the Nazis were for redistribution, the approach to the issue of race consistent with this would be to encourage, not ban intermarriage. Conversely, had the Nazis taken the same approach to poverty that they had with race, then they would have simply culled anyone who wasn't already well off to begin with. I've tried to make the claim less strong. I think what we really have here is that Nazism shares with many doctrines of socialism a prior notion of austerity, from influences like Sparta and Stoicism, and Nazi leaders used any links with socialism for maximum effect on audiences with socialist sympathies (any claim by a politician that can further their own goals, particularly when made in a propaganda effort, is suspect). 'Bourgeois values' have been attacked by democratic revolutionaries and conservative aristocrats alike since the time of imperial Rome and before; it's hardly evidence for socialism. That said, the evidence might be worth including and discussing in the Fascism and ideology page --Nema Fakei 16:00, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

The point is that socialism's class views are based on the idea that there are several contending classes, thus, class struggle. Nazism takes a holistic approach to society, what we could call organic, and considers that there are several classes, that this is well, and that they must cooperate within the framework of the Volksreich. I copy some text from the translator's note to Mein Kampf to illustrate this point. "Another word I have often left standing in the original is völkisch. The basic word here is Volk, which is sometimes translated as People; but the German word, Volk, means the whole body of the people without any distinction of class or caste. It is a primary word also that suggests what might be called the basic national stock. Now, after the defeat in 1918, the downfall of the Monarchy and the destruction of the aristocracy and the upper classes, the concept of Das Volk came into prominence as the unifying co-efficient which would embrace the whole German people. Hence the large number of völkisch societies that arose after the war and hence also the National Socialist concept of unification which is expressed by the word Volksgemeinschaft, or folk community. This is used in contradistinction to the Socialist concept of the nation as being divided into classes. Hitler's ideal is the Völkischer Staat, which I have translated as the People's State." Emphasis mine. Eulen 19:50, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Marxism was the branch of socialism devoted to class conflict. The perception of egalitarianism through Nazisms "organic" view of society as you put it, coupled with the opposition to class consciousness that there was in the Nazi ideology, is analogous to a socialist substrata in their belief that opposed the capitalist mode or production. This was in direct contrast to Marx's concept of the matter that classes must war to achieve a social class equality or "socialistic" condition of society, but not at all in contrast to a socialist desired framework that such a socialistic condition of society could or should be reached. Nagelfar 01:43, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I added some content which should help, and generally overhauled the "Socialism#Other_ideologies_including_the_word_.22socialism.22" section. Sam Spade 11:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of the socialism article is to discuss things that are common to all forms of socialism. Controversies about specific ideologies and their relationships with socialism should be placed in the articles on those specific ideologies - or, if the controversies are too lengthy, they should be split off in articles of their own. Sam, you copied and pasted a large volume of text into this article; so large, in fact, that a huge chunk of the article supposedly on "socialism" ended up being devoted to "other ideologies including the word 'socialism'". That is clearly inappropriate - and since the text was copied and pasted, you can't accuse me of reverting your hard work. Each of those controversial ideologies including the word 'socialism' should get about a one-paragraph summary here, and a link to other articles where they are discussed more in-depth. In particular, I think we should restore the old article on Nazism in relation to other concepts. -- Nikodemos 11:52, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

A bit of a restructure?

In connection with the above, I wish to suggest that we move around a few sections of this article so as to deal with general socialist ideas first and specific branches of socialism second. And while we're writing a paragraph about each of the ideologies that are controversially associated with socialism, we should also write at least that much about those ideologies that are universally regarded as socialist (e.g. social democracy, communism, etc). -- Nikodemos 12:09, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The new structure that I propose is the following:

• Socialism

  Needs a longer intro that explains the common themes present in all forms of socialism.

  • Development of socialist thought

    A summarized version of the main article history of socialism.

  • Socialist systems and societies

    A section covering most of what is now covered by "Socialist theory": Descriptions of the different kinds of societies that different socialists call "socialism".

  • Branches of socialism

    A section covering the accepted branches of socialism with at least one paragraph for each major category. The categories are:

    • Democratic socialism
    • Social democracy
    • Marxism
      • Leninism
    • Libertarian socialism
    • Christian socialism
    • Other branches
  • Socialism and other ideologies

    A section covering the relationship between socialism and ALL major ideologies (not just Nazism but also liberalism, conservatism and so on) with about one paragraph for each ideology.

  • -- The remainder of the article should stay unchanged --

I disagree regarding the ideologies claimed by some (or many, in the case of nazism) to be socialist. They need to be handled very differently from ideologies nobody considers to be socialist. Have a look at how the article now stands and tell me what you think. Sam Spade 15:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Every ideology (with the exception of libertarianism, probably) is considered by someone to be "socialist". You are going too far in accomodating every fringe view. Nazism doesn't deserve more than a paragraph here - certainly not its own subsection - because controversies of the form "is A a kind of B?" should be covered in articles dealing with A, not in articles dealing with B. -- Nikodemos 16:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Way too long for this article, and much of what you added was fringe POV and irrelevant. You may want to consider starting a new article, Ideologies containing the word socialist, because this article is supposed to be about normal forms of socialism. Dedicating half the article to non-socialism wastes space and clarity. -- infinity0 16:41, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Here, take this towel, your POV is showing. Sam Spade 23:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of altering the old introduction, since it seemed to be rather like Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark.

--Train guard 16:27, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I think putting the disputed idelogies into "types of socialism" is POV. I am OK now, after making some changes to the structure, but I still do not know where "differences between schools" should go. In "theory", or in "types"? -- infinity0 16:56, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the article should start with a dictionary definition so that the topic of the article is well defined. I always thought of socialism as a way to link the economy to political planners; i.e. mainly an economic theory. The most common form of socialism is 'international socialism' which is the probably the version of socialism most people identify with. But not everyone sings the 'internationale'; nationalistic socialism is a definite strain of socialist thought. Many would be socialists are very interested in promoting the peculiar culture of the nation, nazi and baath can fairly be considered part of this class, depending on the defintion offered for socialism.Mrdthree 23:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

(I am putting my comments in brackets.)

I think the article should start with a dictionary definition so that the topic of the article is well defined.

(Why? What is so special about a dictionary definition? Who relies upon dictionary definitions in academic or other forms of discourse? Is this some American affectation?)

I always thought of socialism as a way to link the economy to political planners; i.e. mainly an economic theory.

(I'm afraid that that is not the case. Most socialists, throughout history, would say that the economic dimension grows out of a philosophical statement about the nature of man.)

The most common form of socialism is 'international socialism' which is the probably the version of socialism most people identify with.

(I have no idea what you mean by "international socialism". Do you mean marxism? What?)

But not everyone sings the 'internationale'; nationalistic socialism is a definite strain of socialist thought.

(I think that you mean 'social democracy.)

Many would be socialists are very interested in promoting the peculiar culture of the nation, nazi and baath can fairly be considered part of this class,

(Look, the Nazis were not socialists. Name me one reputable poltical theorist or historian who suggests that they were.)

depending on the defintion offered for socialism.Mrdthree 23:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I am now going to add my contribution once more. Please do not revert it.

--Train guard 11:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Your contribution is the second paragraph. Please READ the changes before you think they have been deleted. -- infinity0 11:18, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I meant 'put it in its proper place' so that it makes sense. Which I hope that I have done.

--Train guard 11:37, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

A succinct definition first is better; otherwise readers get bored. -- infinity0 11:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Even if you are putting (in my opinion) the cart before the horse? There is surely a confusion of ends and means here. Socialism is, first and foremost, a view of the nature of man. That man is not a finite entity but capable of improvement. That is the end in view. All else, including perhaps the notion of social justice, are but means to that end. There is no point whatsoever in talking about distributive justice, notions of exploitation, or economic systems, unless that is established first and foremost. I really want my version back where it was, butnot out of arrogance - I genuinely believe it to be right. But I will not change it. Instead, I hope to convince you that this is the best arrangement. (Being English, I am prone to the Pelagian Heresy. Bear with me....)

--Train guard 13:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Your version might be the more "logical" one in that it starts of with premises and concludes into socialism, but that's actually POV, since you're asserting that the logic is correct. We should say what socialism is, then explain what it might follow from - it's the wrong order, yes, but avoids asserting a specific starting point. Most readers, when they read the page, just want to know what socialism is, without getting tangled in the details. -- infinity0 13:34, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it isn't POV. Socialist thinkers from Robert Owen to Karl Marx have all begun with a philosophical view that the nature of man is not fixed or finite, but is changeable. This is in contrast to the religious concept of 'original' or birth sin and the Hobbesian view of human nature. And this is entangled with a defintion of social justice, for without this, change cannot be undertaken. Now that is what socialism is, which is presumably what people want to know. It is not a premise. It is the thing itself. The next section, which flows from it, deals with process, or (if you like) how socialism is to be implemented. Please do not be so dogmatic in your thinking, or influenced by American approaches to this concept that leave a great deal to be desired.

--Train guard 10:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I have nothing to do with America. Yes, we can explain how socialism was created and what the creators theorised, but not in the intro - the intro should give a brief description of what socialism is. You could elaborate on it in the "socialist ideology" section. If you can provide a few sources which show that "Socialist thinkers from Robert Owen to Karl Marx have all begun with a philosophical view that the nature of man is not fixed or finite, but is changeable," that would be very good. -- infinity0 11:18, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

But that is what socialism is! My version of the introduction is a definition. It is not an explanation of why socialism was created. Why you cannot perceive that is a complete mystery to me.

As to the other matters, I suggest that you refer readers to Owen's 'A New View of Society' or any decent exposition of Marx. (Such as the recent biography by Francis Wheen).

--Train guard 12:05, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Definitions of Socialism to constrain article

Here is a paraphrase (perhaps) of the OED definition of socialims: "A theory of social organization which aims at or advocates the ownership and control of the means of production, capital, land, property, etc., by the community as a whole, and their administration or distribution in the interests of all. " Etymology is French and initially coined in 1832 to contrast with individualism (personnalité). http://dictionary.oed.com/. THis is the online OED, which revises itself. last printed version is OED2. This is the citation form they reccomend:The Oxford English Dictionary. 2nd ed. 1989. OED Online. Oxford University Press. 4 Apr. 2000 <http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50229733>.

MS Encarta Intro paragraph: "Socialism, economic and social doctrine, political movement inspired by this doctrine, and system or order established when this doctrine is organized in a society. The socialist doctrine demands state ownership and control of the fundamental means of production and distribution of wealth, to be achieved by reconstruction of the existing capitalist or other political system of a country through peaceful, democratic, and parliamentary means. The doctrine specifically advocates nationalization of natural resources, basic industries, banking and credit facilities, and public utilities. It places special emphasis on the nationalization of monopolized branches of industry and trade, viewing monopolies as inimical to the public welfare. It also advocates state ownership of corporations in which the ownership function has passed from stockholders to managerial personnel. Smaller and less vital enterprises would be left under private ownership, and privately held cooperatives would be encouraged." http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761577990/Socialism.html Mrdthree 23:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

COntrasting definitions paraphrased from OED:

capitalism: private ownership of teh means of production.

communism: A theory which advocates a state of society in which there should be no private ownership... the professed principle being that each should work according to his capacity, and receive according to his wants.

communalist, an adherent of the Commune of Paris of 1871, a supporter of the principle of the communal organization of society.

authoritarian-Favourable to the principle of authority as opposed to that of individual freedom.

fascist-the advocacy of a particular viewpoint or practice in a manner perceived as intolerant or authoritarian.

Market- medium of exchange reflecting interaction of supply and demand OED views market as a capitalism vs. socialism neutral concept. Mrdthree 00:20, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I changed the intro a little bit, and merged two paragraphs which basically said the same thing. It's not always a government which controls the MOP - eg. in lib socialism, there is no government. -- infinity0 10:45, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Mrdthree, could you give the links to the MSN Encarta source, and the edition of the OED you are using? We could add them as inline sources in the article. -- infinity0 10:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I put in links above to the sources I used. The oed is not public access though. Mrdthree 15:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

That's OK; it doesn't have to be accesible via the web - so long as we know what edition it's from. I'd like to eventually source the entire article with inline sources, so that this can become a featured article. -- infinity0 15:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

In the intro, the only thing I dont like is having qualifier in the first sentence-- the stuff in poarantheses. If most socialist theories have a political component, incorporate into 'political' into the sentence (it is the popular understanding in america). Mrdthree 15:12, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I dunno, it'll be hard to rearrange it that way. How about putting the stuff in commas, instead of parentheses? -- infinity0 15:16, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Tried it didnt like it. I'll research it later. Though I think teh first sentence could be split into two sentences somehow.Mrdthree 15:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm reverting to the previous version, because your new version makes it seem like the ends of the political theory is the state (which it isn't always), and it also takes away the point that the word itself can also mean the political theory. -- infinity0 16:12, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Fine, but my point is there are two articles. The OED doesnt mention the government, the Encarta does. I was thinking divide it into two sentences.Mrdthree 16:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

TBH, Encarta isn't a very good source. If it thinks government is a defining aspect of socialism, then it is wrong. -- infinity0 16:32, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I doubt you could find a mainstream source in america that doesnt mention the government. In fact the more I look into it there is a differnce in meaning between UK and US, canadian and australian sites tend to favor american definitions although dictionaries indigenous to these countries seem scarce. 'public' appears in place of government ownership in some cases. Mrdthree 16:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not the difference in meaning between countries - I would probably guess that the MSN Encarta is written by someone more biased. They forget anti-government forms of socialism such as libertarian socialism and anarchism. -- infinity0 17:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd say "public" is more correct than government. -- infinity0 17:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough then thanks.Mrdthree 17:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

POV header

if there is to be aPOV dispute, it needs to be articulated. 17:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe the controversial ideologies that have been labeled as "socialism" should go into the Socialism and other ideologies section, and that section should only discuss these ideologies. After all, the only "other ideologies" that should be discussed in an article about socialism are those that have some claimed relationship with socialism. -- Nikodemos 17:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Sam, putting "Baathism", etc into their own headings clots up the TOC. Also, putting them into "Types of socialism" is POV. -- infinity0 18:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I made it clear that they are not universally agreed on as socialist, but putting them anywhere other than where they are (like a section for discussing non-socialist ideologies) is extremely biased, as I'm sure you can understand. Try thinking from the POV of an islamic socialist for amoment, and see what you think would be fair.

NPOV requires a compromise all reasonable, informed parties can live w. Sam Spade 18:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

NPOV requires thinking from all viewpoints. Since whether they validity as socialists is disputed, they should have their own section, neither "socialist" or "non-socialist". I'll go remove the headings and replace that section with shorter versions, as you have not objected to that, for now. -- infinity0 18:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

You can't mnake claims like "The German Nazis ("National Socialists") used the word "socialist" in their official name, but most scholars argue that this was done purely for propaganda purposes" or "The Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party is viewed by many as being not genuinely socialist, despite it employing the word "socialist" in its name."

who are these "many"? How can you cite "most scholars"? Is there a scholars poll you are aware of? If so, lets see it! I am ok w trimming, I have been doing that myself if you havn't noticed. Its this POVing and uncited claims which I take issues w. Sam Spade 18:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

As Infinity pointed out, they need their own section. The only question is what the name of that section should be. "Ideologies which are sometimes considered to have things in common with socialism" is too long. "Other ideologies claimed to be socialist" is inaccurate, because no one claims that all Catholics, for example, are socialists. Likewise with liberals (which should be added, by the way, since some liberals are claimed to be socialists). "Other ideologies and groups" is vague, but allows us to explain what we're talking about in an introductory paragraph. So it gets my vote. -- Nikodemos 18:23, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Other ideologies makes it clear they arn't socialist. Its not acceptable for discussing things like islamic socialism and nazism. Sam Spade 18:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Sam, what's your problem with my other edits, such as merging the schools and types sections? Show some respect. Also, what's wrong with "other ideologists claimed to be socialist"? It shows that the majority doesn't consider them to be socialist. -- infinity0 18:27, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, what "uncited claims" are you talking about? PLease note, I am not the one making them; the paragraph I am replacing was originally written by someone else. I just replaced it with that because it's shorter and more concise than your long-winded essays. -- infinity0 18:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Other ideologies doesn't make anything clear, Sam. Especially if you place it after a list of ideologies that are socialist. Readers may interpret "Other ideologies" to mean "Other socialist ideologies". Or they may not. Like I said, that title doesn't make anything clear. -- Nikodemos 18:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Sam, after reading your version, WOW. You say I put weasel words in (note again, it wasn't me who wrote it) but there are lots of stuff in your version such as "some have labelled the Ba'th Party a fascist movement" - who? Please hesistate to criticise other people's versions before looking at your own. -- infinity0 18:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Reversions

Sam, what's your problem? Why do you insist on reverting to your own version and working from that? This is a collaborative effort. -- infinity0 21:48, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Why do you keep insisting on putting the sections under their separate headings? Why do you keep insisting moving the section "schools of socialism" away from "types of socialism"? -- infinity0 21:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Why did you revert me in the middle of what I clarified as a complex edit? Discuss, rather than revert. I restored all beneficial edits (and even some that might not have been) addressed your concerns (like calling tha ba'ath party fascists), and compromised left and right. What I did was hardly a revert. Your interuption of my compromise was however quite vexing and unreasonable in my estimation. Sam Spade 21:57, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[1] - this is a blatant revert. Like I said, this is a collaborative effort. Work your changes ON the current version - did you really mean to split up "types" and "schools" of socialism? Please say what you are trying to change, then I might be able to help as well. Overhauling the article back to your version is very aggressive and unfriendly. -- infinity0 22:00, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, there have been about 4 other editors editing this article today and none of them have changed back to your version.

Things wrong with your version:

• Too Many Headings
• Splits up schools and types

Could you at least explain the reasoning behind these? -- infinity0 22:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Yesterday, I rewrote much of the Ideologies not universally agreed upon as "socialist" sections. You can view the edits I made here. What is wrong with them? I included some information from the previous version (before you started editing) and cut out some irrelevant bits from your version. -- infinity0 22:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

You are injecting the article w irredeemable bias. I know no healthy way to respond other than to revert you. Sam Spade 22:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Please point out specifics rather than accusing me of bias without anything to back up that claim. What is wrong with the current structure, and what is wrong with my edits? -- infinity0 22:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I've pointed out the things I disagree with about your version. Please at least have the respect to do the same thing for the current version, rather than forcing through your version just because it is yours. -- infinity0 22:25, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I tried, but I got edit conflicts repeatedly. I'll try talking to you again in 24hrs or so when we both calm down. Sam Spade 22:37, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

How about talking it over on the talk page right now? That way we'll get an idea of what the other person is TALKING about. -- infinity0 22:41, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Please avoid undue weight

My first observation about this article is that the "ideologies not universally agreed upon as socialist" are given about as much space as the ideologies that are universally agreed upon as socialist. This is a clear case of undue weight. Some ideologies that are universally agreed upon as socialist aren't even mentioned, like the several important branches of Marxism. I have been busy elsewhere for the past two days, but I intend to start doing some serious editing of this article today or tomorrow. -- Nikodemos 22:51, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your concerns at face value. Varieties of marxism (like stalinism, maoism, etc...) should get at least as much space as nazism or islamic socialism or whatever. Sam Spade 11:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Let's not fill the article with stuff that's already in articles. Atm, I think the content is fine, just the "disputed ideologies" needs to be cut down, and perhaps moved out of "types". -- infinity0 11:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

We don't agree at all. Sam Spade 11:39, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's fair to say "some consider anti-thetical". Some socialists consider totalitarian socialism to be anti-thetical, but totalitarian socialism is still considered to be socialism. -- infinity0 15:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Intro

Nikodemos, I think what you wrote is good, but too long for the intro. Take Capitalism for example - the intro is in about 5 lines. Much of the current intro could probably go into the first section. -- infinity0 20:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Judging by the editing behaviour of most anons, there are a significant number of people who read only the intro to an article. Thus, I believe intros should be at least a few paragraphs long. The capitalism intro is ridiculously short (and, if I remember, it got that way because editors couldn't agree on a longer definition of capitalism so they settled on the very bad compromise of hardly defining it at all). I wish to move back most of my text into the intro. -- Nikodemos 22:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

What should be included in the intro? I was thinking just a brief definition and a little on the history. -- infinity0 22:29, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, Marxism should definitely be mentioned, and I would argue that the introductory paragraphs of socialist theory should all be moved to the intro. After all, if you're going to give a brief overview of what socialists believe, why move part of it further down rather than putting it all at the beginning of the article? I don't like intros that give just a brief definition. The intro should be a concise summary of the article. Readers shouldn't have to search through the article for explanations of the basics of socialism. That's my view. -- Nikodemos 03:31, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

A journal article typically has a 300 word abstract, a thesis 500 words. This is 520 words. THe only article I can find with a longer intro is the communism article. I wonder who wrote that.Mrdthree 19:26, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't me, if that's what you're implying. -- Nikodemos 02:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Just cause teh intro is longer doesnt mean people will read it. In fact I am now less likely to read teh intro, because its too long. I would rather see the defniintion some history and go straight to the table fo contents to find the issue that interests me. Same with the capitalism article. Though maybe that could use a little history. Mrdthree 07:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

And if the table of contents points you to subsections about (a) the history of socialism, (b) variations of socialist theory and (c) branches of socialism, where exactly would you go for a more detailed definition of socialism in general? -- Nikodemos 02:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

History of capitalism and History of socialism both exist. Much of the stuff in the article is already in separate articles, so I don't think having so much information like Sam Spade is cramming in is helpful. Similar reasoning for the intro - a long intro looks like a tiring read. -- infinity0 18:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The article currently contains a lot of information that was merely copied over from other articles. I consider this an acceptable way to quickly fill in new sections, and it may be useful temporarily, but we should be careful to edit all that material and properly integrate it eventually. -- Nikodemos 02:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Alternate articles

• Socialism/Inclusive

• Socialism/Exclusive

Too many headings

Sam, I hope I can convince you to scrap the headings under "controversial classifications". For one, that Nazism is a form of socialism is a very fringe view. Second, those schools simply aren't notable as being a school of socialism, and aren't major. And thirldy, by giving them each a separate heading, you give them the same focus as the other schools. -- infinity0 18:28, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually I just came here to compliment what you have done. I was expecting to revert the article first thing, but now I see I have no reason to. Good job! Sam Spade 10:06, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Citations

Be careful of over reaching w citations. The following 2 "cites" don't actually back up what they claim:

However, it has been suggested that the Party was so named purely for propaganda reasons. Virtually all who consider themselves socialist do not regard Nazism as a form of socialism.

Sam Spade 10:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Number one says "In April, 1920, Hitler advocated that the party should change its name to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). Hitler had always been hostile to socialist ideas, especially those that involved racial or sexual equality. However, socialism was a popular political philosophy in Germany after the First World War. This was reflected in the growth in the German Social Democrat Party (SDP), the largest political party in Germany." -- infinity0 15:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Number two says "To most people, Hitler's beliefs belong to the extreme far right." -- infinity0 15:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I will add number one back in. I realise number two requires some assuming good faith on your part, so I'll wait for a response. I've reinserted "The Nazis were in fact extremely hostile to other socialists in their country, and even purged socialists from within their own party in the Night of the Long Knives." - because they did, and I think it's important to point out that they persecuted other socialists as well. -- infinity0 15:46, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

What socialist state didn't persecute other socialists? Even Modern Soc Dem govt.s persecute Nationalist socialist and revolutionary socialist groups. Sam Spade 15:49, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

In the Night of the Long Knives, the Nazis purged the "socialists" within their party whilst retaining the "nationalists". Which Soc. Dem. government persecutes rev. socialist groups to the point of executing them? -- infinity0 15:54, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't remove that night of the long knives bit because it was wrong, but because it is uninformative and poorly worded. It gives no insight. Strasserism needs to be mentioned.

Regarding "to the point of executing", have a look at Nuremberg Trials. Its really not my point if people are executed or not, but theres your answer. Sam Spade 15:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

My point is that the Nazis persecuted socialists everywhere, even within their own party, in favour of people who were more nationalist, and less socialist. -- infinity0 16:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, that's fine at the moment. Though, a cite supporting "victory of the right over the left" would be good. -- infinity0 16:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Do you remember when you accused me of stacking the article w cites from a single POV? As a random example, Lynn Walsh doesn't strike me as particularly notable, either as a socialist, or as a critic of baathism. Sam Spade 16:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

It's the only source there, though. -- infinity0 16:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, I didn't delete it. Somebody else might someday tho. If you wrote an article on her it would help (assuming she is encyclopedic) [2]

Anyway my point was that we need to do a better job of Wikipedia:writing for the enemy. The article is not ment to promote a Socialist POV, but rather a NPOV of socialism. There are a huge amount of ties between the far-left and far-right, which I can easilly cite if I have to balance out the contested section. Are you familiar w Bill White (neo-Nazi) for example? Sam Spade 16:26, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

NPOV doesn't mean taking all views equally, though. I think you're putting too much emphasis on the reasons why socialism and nazism are linked, and not enough on the counter-arguments against that. -- infinity0 16:32, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Sam, over 2/3 of the current Nazism section talks about why it's a type of socialism. That's overweighted. -- infinity0 16:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Compared to what was there before? Sam Spade 16:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

What was there before, about 1/8 of the section talked about why it's a type of socialism. -- infinity0 16:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Very honest of you, I appreciate that. Sam Spade 20:51, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Is it OK now? -- infinity0 20:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Authoritarianism vrs. liberty

This is the biggest difference between forms of socialism. We need to discuss it in detail. Sam Spade 16:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

What changes do you wish to make? -- infinity0 16:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Not me, this was just a request/suggestion, contribution of bulk content is not my specialty. My focus is on the finer touches ;) Sam Spade 20:54, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't know the details either, but I'd say the article is roughly balanced (perhaps the Stalinist section could be cut down further, it's not notable outside Soviet Russia). The current "lib socialism" section is rather short, I'd say. Most of early anarchism was almost completely libertarian socialism. -- infinity0 20:56, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Nazism section

Nazism is an abbreviation for "National Socialist German Workers Party", and Nazi leaders described their ideology as socialist. However, it has been suggested that the Party was so named purely for propaganda reasons.[14].

There were ideological shades of opinion within the Nazi Party, notably strasserism, but a central tenet of the party was always the leader principle or Führerprinzip. The Nazi Party did not have party congresses in which policy was deliberated upon and concessions made to different factions. What mattered most was what the leader, Adolf Hitler, thought and decreed. Those who held opinions which were at variance with Hitler's either learned to keep quiet or were purged, particularly in the Night of the Long Knives, which has often been viewed as a victory of the Right-wing of the Nazi party and the SS over the Strasserists and Röhm's SA. This is comparable to the behavior of many Communist states such as that of Stalin in the Soviet Union or Mao Zedong in China.

It has been argued [15] that the Nazi war economy, large public works projects, demand for total employment, and state interventions such as the National Labour Law of January 20, 1934 [5] are indicative of socialism. Efforts were made to coordinate business's actions with the needs of the state, particularly with regard to rearmament, and the Nazis established some state-owned concerns such as Volkswagen. Independent trade unions were outlawed, as were strikes, much like the practices of State communism.

Many socialists reject the racialist theories and totalitarianism of the Nazis, while Nazis rejected the internationalism, egalitarianism and the class struggle policies pursued by many socialists.[16]

Paragraph 2 and 3 focuses entirely on the similarities.

Paragraph 2 is the largest paragraph, being 6 lines, and explains in unnecessary detail about the "leadership" in Nazi, and it being similar to USSR. In fact, this "leadership" issue is an issue many socialists disagree with; it is not representative of socialism like it is made out to be. The point links anti-socialist characteristics of the USSR and Nazi with socialism which is heavily POV.

Paragraph 3 says way too much about the economic reforms. Again, it pushes the POV that USSR and Nazi are both socialism, which is heavily disputed. "Independent trade unions were outlawed," is a criticism socialists make against the USSR to denouce it as socialist. It also has WP:Weasel words: - "it has been argued" - who? Answer: anti-socialists.

Paragraphs 1 and 4 are the only paragrphs giving a different view, and combined they are both shorter than any one of the other paragraphs. -- infinity0 15:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

My version, which was written to improve the POV of the above. Feel free to point out any bad things.

Paragraphs 1 and 2 say why nazism isn't socialism - it's the main view so it should be mentioned first. Paragrphs 3 gives views and counter-views on the economy. Paragraph 4 gives a view on the cult of personality. -- infinity0 15:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean "main view"? Were seeking balance, not a pro-leftist POV. Show me some evidence that Nazism being socialism is amarginal POV, and I'll consider such an interpretation of policy. As is, I have cited Hayek and Arndt, two well known authoratative scholars on the subject. Who are you citing who claims Nazism isn't socialism? Sam Spade 16:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

That Nazism is socialism is a minor view, and to dedicate 2/3 of the section to it is unbalanced. Hayek is known for his anti-socialist bias. Arndt does not argue that Nazism is socialism, merely that the totalitarian regimes are related. I cite Leon Trotsky, a well known person everyone considers to be socialist, and two other sources arguing against the POV, and stating that the POV is minor. -- infinity0 16:36, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, I'm not trying to push a leftist POV, but only give the main view the importance it deserves. Please stop accusing me of POV. You've done this ever since you started editing this article and at some point or another it will become a serious hindrance to me assuming your good faith. -- infinity0 16:38, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh for the last time, Sam: Hayek was an economist who was (A) not an authority on the history of Nazism and its ideology and (B) equated any form of government intervention in the economy with Socialism (or some minor variant thereof). Previously, someone (I forget who) posted tons of references showing that the mainstream interpretation of historians is that Nazism and Socialism are quite distinct ideologies, though of course they have influenced each other. (As indeed the ideas of Adam Smith influenced Marx -- but no-one would equate laissez-faire Capitalism with Marxism for that reason.) Cadr 16:41, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Replace "capitalism" with "jewry", and "worker" with "aryan", and then tell me how much difference you see. Sam Spade 20:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Replacing capitalism with jewry is actually a very, very, major change. So is replacing worker with aryan. But that's besides the point. What about my suggested replacement? I think it gives enough space to the "similarities" arguments. -- infinity0 20:48, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Your version has fewer citations. Sam Spade 21:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I took out one, the "national labour law" because the source only said that it existed and gave no information about what it actually was whatsoever. -- infinity0 21:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

It is the most explicit act of socialism on the part of the nazi's of which I am aware, and provides explicit evidence of their labour laws. Sam Spade 21:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, but that does not show their similarity to the concept of socialism. I didn't think it was relevant - there is already two examples of their "economic policies" being similar to socialism - that's enough. I left in the part about "outlawing trade unions," but I am not going to say "similar to USSR" because that is OR, and not a similarity to socialism (people criticise USSR for this for being anti-socialist, even). -- infinity0 21:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

"people" say everything imaginable, but the Soviet union is one of the most verifiable instances of socialism (according to experts) ever. Sam Spade 21:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't mean everything the USSR did was socialist, and in fact many experts disagree that USSR was socialist at all, instead calling it state capitalism. To make the said claim that "outlawing trade unions shows socialism", you need a source linking outlawing trade unions to socialism. Most socialists are supportive of trade unions.

What other stuff is lacking in my suggestion? -- infinity0 21:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Anti-socialists argue that the Nazis' large public works projects and state interventions are indicative of socialism[5] Efforts were made to coordinate business' actions with the needs of the state, particularly with regard to rearmament, and the Nazis established some state-owned concerns such as Volkswagen. However, independent trade unions were outlawed, as were strikes. The Nazis did demand some nationalization of big industries and land reform before their rise to power, though when they did eventually seize power, these demands were largely ignored.

Thats a rather clear POV coming out there, in a few places. Demands ignored, "anti-socialists argue", "however". What soviet state allows labour unions? Sam Spade 22:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

They did ignore their own own policies, though - at least according to National Socialist Program. If you think "demands were ignored" is POV, then how about "did not act on their own policies?" The people who argue similarities with Nazism and socialism are anti-socialists - certainly both the referenecs given are from people who are fiercely anti-socialist.

Soviet states didn't allow labour unions, but that would be an argument showing the totalitarian nature of both regmies (as Arndt suggests). Socialism is for labour unions, eg. syndicalism. -- infinity0 22:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion

Nazism is an abbreviation for "National Socialist German Workers Party", and Nazi leaders described their ideology as socialist. However, it has been suggested that the Party was so named purely for propaganda reasons.. The Nazis also had a hostile purge within their own party, the Night of the Long Knives, which has often been viewed as a victory of the right-wing of the Nazi party and the SS over the more socialist Strasserists and Röhm's SA.

Many socialists reject the racialist theories and totalitarianism of the Nazis, while Nazis rejected the internationalism, egalitarianism and the class struggle policies pursued by many socialists.

Anti-socialists argue that the Nazis' large public works projects and state interventions are indicative of socialism Efforts were made to coordinate business' actions with the needs of the state, particularly with regard to rearmament, and the Nazis established some state-owned concerns such as Volkswagen. However, independent trade unions were outlawed, as were strikes. The Nazis did demand some nationalization of big industries and land reform before their rise to power, though when they did eventually seize power, these demands were largely ignored. they did not act on most of these policies.

Opponents of socialism also argue that the absoluteness of what the leader of the Nazi Party, Adolf Hitler, decreed is similar to the cult of personality in the totalitarian regimes of Communist states such as that of Stalin or Mao Zedong.

(first two are from elsewhere on the talk page)

Other comments

The progression from Bolshevism under Lenin to Fascism under Mussolini to Nazisim under Hitler is similar to the progression from Babeuf to Marx to Lenin. All have followed a similar pattern of a utopian paradise from revolutionary action for a slecet worth group of people. Fascism has its roots in revolutionary Socialism. Hitler himself said that "National Socialism is what Marxism might have been if it could have broken its absurd and artificial ties with a democratic order." The similarities are too numerous to be written off.

1. Street violence tactics of the Bolsheviks, and early 20th century socialism in general, with the street violence with the Fascist.

All kinds of political movements have used violence. Cadr 23:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, many, if not all, have used violence or the threat of, but in the case of both fascists and socialists it was both a means and an end, not unique to the two, but a very prominent feature. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 05:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Violence was not a part of the mainstream socialist movement in 20-30s Germany. The Social Democrat Party (which was still more-or-less socialist) was committed to parliamentary democracy. It was only the Spartacists and the KDP who believed in violent revolution, and that was very much as a means to an end, not an end in itself. Despite what you say, Socialist ideology has never glorified violence, or viewed it as an admirable thing in itself -- whereas of course Nazi ideology has. War and conquest are the bread and butter of Nazism, but totally antithetical to any form of Socialism. Cadr 13:44, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

1. The promotion of the respective leader to cult like superhero. Can you admit that there are not similarities in the throngs that publicly worshiped Stalin, Lenin, Mussolini and Hitler? State sponsored events, where the “masses” chant the name of the leader in lockstep unison.

Leader worship is inherently anti-socialist, since it's uncollectivist and undemocratic. Certainly, there were many similarities between Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia, but Stalinist Russia is not considered to be a Socialist state by many. It didn't even claim to be a Marxist state (Marxist-Lenninist, which is quite different.) Cadr 23:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

What is and is not "inherently anti-socialist" is a matter of opinion in this case as many "socialists" were indeed the subject of hero worship: Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Castro, and Kim, just to statrt with.

You yourself put "socialist" in scare quotes. Hero worship has been an element of many totalitarian states, including Nazi Germany and the Communist Russia, but it isn't part of socialist ideology. Socialist polotical theory provides no basis for any kind of Fuhrerprincip, but (of course) Nazi ideology does. Cadr 13:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

1. Fascist brown shirts and socialist red shirts.
2. The clenched fist of the socialist and the stiff armed Roman salute.
3. The respective anthems of the Internationale and the Giovinezza
4. Socialism and Fascism both used science as a way to justify their ends.

Along with just about every political movement in the 20th century (to exaggerate only slightly). Cadr 23:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The concept of scientific socialism was based on the enlightenment view that the application of science could be used to create a rational theory of socio economic organization. This is particlular to Socialism and Fascism, but please provide examples o the contrary. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 05:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The idea that science could be used to create a rational thoery of socio economic organisation is not peculiar to Fascism and Socialism. Keynes for example, was not a Socialist. (Unless of course, you define Socialism to be any form of state intervention in the economy, in which case you can trivially say that every political ideology apart from laissez-faire capitalism is socialist.) 13:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

1. The use of color for the Nazi flag. Red was used by Hitler for the social identity of the movement, white for the national identity of the movement.

Don't believe Nazi propaganda. Cadr 23:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

It not a matter of belief or disbelief. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 05:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

It is: you apparently take the Nazis seriously as political philosophers, and believe even their most obviously propagandistic and ridiculous pretenses to be some kind of left-wing movement. Hitler's political philosophy is hokum, a disjointed hodge-podge of Nietzsche, reactionary Conservatism and social Darwinism. Mein Kampf is full of passages denouncing Marxism/Communism/Socialism and collectivism, for example:

It must never be forgotten that nothing that is really great in this world has ever been achieved by coalitions, but that it has always been the success of a single victor. Coalition successes bear by the very nature of their origin the germ of future crumbling, in fact of the loss of what has already been achieved. Great, truly world-shaking revolutions of a spiritual nature are not even conceivable and realizable except as the titanic struggles of individual formations, never as enterprises of coalitions.

Cadr 13:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Fascism and Socialism both sold a bill of goods whereby they would mobilize the common man and proletariat through a mass revolution to destroy the bourgeoisie. Solidarity would ensue and a brave new world would arise through the use of state power. Sam contrasted the that usage of capitalism with Jewery, but Marx had ethnic grudges that would make Hitler blush.

The next world war will make not only reactionary classes and dynasties disappear from the face of the earth, but entire reactionary peoples as well. And this is also to be considered progress The Magyar Struggle, January 1849

Not to mention the fact that 19th century socialistic movements were rife with anti-Semitism, after all Bebel did not call anti-Semetism the socialism of fools for no reason. The similarities are far to many. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 22:45, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Nazism certainly used some Marxist ideas about class warfare, but for very different ends than those of Marx. As I mentioned previously, Marx used many ideas from Smith and Recardo, but that doesn't mean he was really a laissez-faire capitalist. Anti-semitism was rife everywhere in 19/20th century Europe, so it's not much of a link. Cadr 23:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, the Nazis clearly weren't interested in destroying the bourgeoisie. They didn't -- as a point of fact -- when they came to power; and if they had every seriously threatened to do so, it is highly unlikely that they would have got support from von Papen and those on the Conservative right of German politics. It would also be difficult to explain why they got no support whatsoever from the social democrats or the KDP. AND, the destruction of a socialist revolution by the Freikorps (proto-Nazis) would also remain a mystery. Cadr 23:22, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

This is the debate as to what Socialism is in theory and what it is in practice. The comments of people like Hayek and Arndt compare socialism to facism and find the similarities of the two in practice to have many more similarities than differences. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 05:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

That's not really an accurate characterisation. In the comment above, I pointed out that the Nazi movement in Germany had radically different historical roots to the Socialist/Communist movements; indeed, the two were often in direct opposition. I also pointed out that the Nazis did not destroy the bourgeoise or repossess industry on a large scale, whereas the Communist revolution in Russia really did restructure society (although of course it subsequently set up a new class structure). The first is a historical difference, the second a practical difference -- neither is purely theoretical. Hayek is only interested in analysing political systems in terms of their distance from laissez-faire capitalism. His conclusion is perfectly true but also utterly banal: Nazism and Socialism are both very different political systems from laissez-faire capitalism. By defining socialism as essentially any deviation from laissez-faire principles, Hayek is able to equate Nazism and Socialism by equivocation, but there is no substance to his analysis. Cadr 13:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

That's your own view, and original research. -- infinity0 22:53, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

If you are refering to my comments, it is my view, but it is also the view of others, so it does not qualify as OR. Torturous Devastating Cudgel

It's the view of two scholars who are not recognised as authorities on the history of Nazsim. Fascism, or Fascist ideoology. Great numbers of scholars who are recognised as authorities in these fields hold very different views. Cadr 13:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Nazism section should go

The few similarities between some components of Nazism and some components of socialism are used to demonstrate that the entire ideologies are intertwined. This logic is fundamentally flawed and purposely misleading. The execution of large public works projects, a demand for total employment, and state interventionism are not defining tenets of socialism. To the contrary, they indicate the fascist desire to impose state control over the individual. The differences between the goals and ideals of Nazism and socialism are diminished in order to demonize socialism. Also, the section attempts to liken socialism and Nazism by emphasizing the brutal practices of individual socialist autocrats; however, the oppresive, violent policies of a few rulers are in no way representative of socialism. The section is irrelevant to the ideology of socialism, the alleged similarties between Nazism and socialism are over-emphasized and misleading, and, overall, the very basis of the section is POV and unnacceptable. ---WGee 05:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, so your a socialist then? Since when does a socialist state fail to oppress and control the individual? Where do Nazism, fascism and Communism differ in practice? What difference do they have, even in theory, other than difference of emphasis? Hitler wanted an Aryan empire of supermen, Marx wanted a Dictatorship of the proletariat. Both ideas resulted in a ridged autocracy. Sam Spade 11:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Erm, by "dictatorship of the proletariat" Marx ment an essentially democratic system of worker control of the means of production. Nothing like an Aryan empire of Supermen. The differences in theory are innumerable (e.g. celebration of violence vs pacifism, social darwinism vs equality, nationalism vs internationalism, democracy vs the fuhrerprincip, collectivism vs comepetitive individualism, ...) Cadr 14:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Cadr, what you are arguing is what socialism sells itself as and what Sam and I are arguing is regardless of what socialism and socialist have peddled to the faithful, socialism in practices looked very similar to fascism in practice. Its all a moot point anyway, the inclusion of this information meets all the relevant guidelines: WP:Cite, WP:V, and notability of the source. The issues is, to say the least, academic. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Socialism != stalinism. // Liftarn