Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming

This article is protected as a result of a recent arbitration committee case which was brought to end a long standing dispute over the form and substance of this article. 5 mentors have been appointed who have full authority to enforce the arbcom decision, bring everyone to agreement in terms of what the article should say and also to teach the users involved our policies and how to follow them. For the time being, a workshop page is open for editing: Neuro-linguistic programming/Workshop. If you would like to discuss the Workshop page, please go to Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming/Workshop

This article is a former featured article candidate. Please view its sub-page to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates (where the individual nomination does not exist) please check the archive. Once the objections have been addressed, you may resubmit the article for featured article status.

This article has had a peer review which has now been [[Wikipedia:Peer review/Template:Namespace prefix of associated pageNeuro-linguistic programming|archived]]. It may contain ideas that you can use to improve this article. [[Category:Old requests for peer review|Template:Namespace prefix of associated pageNeuro-linguistic programming]]

This is a controversial topic, which may be disputed. Please read this talk page discussion before making substantial changes. (This message should only be placed on talk pages.)

Archives

Pre-October 2005 October 2005 Disputes October 2005 (Mediated) Disputes 1 October 2005 (Mediated) Disputes 2 November 3 through 13, 2005 (Mediated) November 13 through 25, 2005 (Mediated ) 2005 November 25 through Deceber 22, 2005 (Mediated) 2005 December 22, 2005 through January, 14, 2006 (Mediated) 2006 January 14, 2006 February 6 2005, ends at beginning of mediation and ArbCom decision Mentorship begins

Please follow talk page guideline while posting on this page. No ad-hominem attack on this page please. All messages that deviate from the guideline will be deleted.

General Neuro-linguistic programming chat page

For general chat not related to improving the NLP article, see

• NLP Chat Page

Mentor intros

Woohookitty

I thought it'd be easier to introduce myself here, since there are many users involved in this conflict. Just a little introduction. I've been on Wikipedia since December 2004, an admin since June 2005. I believe very strongly in NPOV. Despite my political leanings, I believe very strongly in writing for the enemy. As for my admin style, I try to give people every benefit of the doubt before blocking or banning. My main motto is...argue the issues, not the people. If you follow that, you will be ok. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 11:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Jdavidb

Hi, folks. Just a quick hello and an intro. I've been on Wikipedia since about 2004-02. I'm a firm believer in NPOV and consensus as the guiding principles that make Wikipedia work; I believe without reservation that these principles will ultimately result in a high-quality encyclopedia.

Hopefully I'm pretty well-suited for this job. I'm well-accustomed to what needs to be done in order to represent a non-mainstream point of view within Wikipedia's NPOV framework. After all, I'm a fundamentalist Christian who believes the earth is most likely 6000 years old. ;) (Not sure if that will encourage people or dishearten them, at first.) But I know how to take the high ground in making Wikipedia a place where beliefs are fairly and accurately represented without allowing Wikipedia itself to take a stand.

I'm reading up on this article and the arbCom case, and I can see that I'll have to read this talk page's history and probably the history of the article, too. Give me a couple of days to get acquainted with the issue, and then we'll all start moving.

I know all three of my fellow-mentors and happen to know from experience that each of them is a great Wikipedian. I think everyone involved here who wants to see a high-quality, fair article on NLP is in for a real treat! Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 13:56, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Ral315

I suppose I should introduce myself as well. I'm Ral315, and I've been editing Wikipedia since December 2004. I also strongly believe in NPOV. Like Jdavidb, I'll be looking through the archives, trying to get a feel for the dispute here. I can also say that all of my fellow mentors are good editors, and will do a good job to try and settle this dispute and get this article to where it should be. Ral315 (talk) 17:20, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Katefan0

Hi everybody. I won't go into great detail about myself, because my userpage should explain lots about who I am. But as it pertains to Neuro-linguistic programming, I promise that I'll do my level best to help everybody come up with an article that Wikipedia can be proud of. At the risk of sounding repetitive, I have full faith in all my fellow mentors and look forward to getting started. As an initial comment, I'd like to echo the sentiments already expressed about sticking on-topic. As tempting as it may be, especially when you get angry or irritated, try not to comment on contributors (or even generically to lob tomatoes at "the other side.") It does nothing to further the debate, and only ends up inflaming passions. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 22:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Mentor comments (from Jdavidb)

Okay, folks, your mentors are still busy getting up to speed on everything, but I've read every single comment that's gone across this talk page since I first posted on it, and I have a few observations:

• Cries of "censorship" are generally unproductive. Your mentors are going to commit to making sure that everything is fairly represented in this article. No government agencies are going to descend here and bowdlerize the article for public consumption. We'll all get the chance to discuss each point that anyone feels needs to be included and weigh it against Wikipedia's standards to decide if it belongs or not, and if so, how to word it.
• Personal attacks are counterproductive. Please define "personal attacks" as broadly as possible, meaning please stay as far away as you can from wording that could even be remotely construed as a personal attack. At best, personal attacks add nothing to your point (and they do not add an point to your argument if it did not have one on its own without the attack). At worst, they inflame people, making it more difficult for them to respond constructively, they generate more personal attacks, and the whole situation deteriorates. Simply state your point. If you're hot when you're commenting, consider emailing your comment to a mentor and asking them to translate it, C-3PO style, into a polite statement of your views and posting it on your behalf.
• Wikipedia does not exist to determine truth. It is not our purpose to decide if NLP's claims are true or not. It is instead our purpose to fairly represent both NLP's claims and the claims of its critics. The purpose of consensus within Wikipedia is not to determine truth, but to determine the wording of articles. Nobody needs to modify their personal views in order to achieve consensus on the wording of the article. However, anyone who is not committed to Wikipedia's core principles is likely to be more concerned with hammering their viewpoint than they are with agreeing upon wording which fairly represents all side.
• Lots of people appeal to their own personal beliefs as to what the standard for the article should be. Very few people are appealing to Wikipedia policies. The previous point is one example of this. Some folks (on the 'pedia in general, not specifically this article) have the idea that Wikipedia is in fact here to determine truth. Citing actual passages from actual Wikipedia policies helps eliminate this, and helps keep us focused on the task of writing an encyclopedia.
• Focusing on each other's personal thoughts and motivations is unproductive. Focus on the text of the article, and how you believe it needs to be improved. More on that, later.
• This article is protected and is going to stay protected until your mentors agree to change that. Any changes you want in the article during that time period are going to have to get by us. It is my hope that we will guide you through the process of first convincing us, using Wikipedia standards, what the wording of specific parts of the article should be, and then eventually peacefully convincing each other. The magic of Wikipedia's policies is that even people who disagree completely about the subject of an article can, in fact, agree on its wording.

Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 20:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Adding a couple of things from Woohookitty

Just wanted to say that all of our email links work and that includes Ral, who hasn't chimed in yet. So if you have any concerns or questions that you want to address to us privately, do so. Also, we're going to have a next to zero tolerance policy on uncivility and personal attacks. Argue the issues, not the people. As jdavidb perfectly said, we're here to make an NPOV article, not to "determine the truth". --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 20:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

A quick note from Ral315

I've been busy with other issues, but I am monitoring this talk page as well as my e-mail, and will chime in when necessary. Ral315 (talk) 21:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Mediators

Note: we'll finish filling out this section after the 24 hour protection period. Thanks, Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 01:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Looking at all the posting on this page, I'm having a little trouble sorting out who the previous mediators are here, so just for myself I'd like to ask anyone posting on this page who considers themselves to be a mediator to sign in below. And I recognize that not everyone may have accepted mediation from any particular mediator, so if you did, I ask you to indicate that. Use three tildes to sign. I'll demonstrate the format.

Also, let me clarify the difference between the mediators and the mentors. The mentors are appointed by the arbitration committee, which reports directly to Jimbo Wales. There are four of us; we're listed above. There may be any number of other people who have stepped in in the past to mediate formally or informally. As I understand it, mediation is voluntary; some participants may accept it, some may not. ArbCom mandates, however, are not voluntary. :) So even if you've got personal feelings about whether or not the mentoring process will work, we're automatically everybody's mentor for the duration, even if you never agreed to mediation. I've even seen articles in the past where somebody considered himself a mediator but nobody on the page actually accepted him as such.

Okay, so please, anyone who's been mediating, sign in below:

Examples:

• JimBob, informally mediating
  • Kaloss, I accept JimBob's mediation
  • Marcus, I accept JimBob's mediation
• Chevron, formally mediating
  • Kaloss, I accept Chevron's mediation
  • CmdrTaco, I accept Chevron's mediation

Thanks, Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 20:47, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• SWATJester, I came here as a formal mediation request. Now that mentors are here, I'm cutting back on the amount of mediating I'm doing. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 23:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Comaze, I accept SWATJester's mediation
  • --Dejakitty 00:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC), will support SWATJester's mediation.

As I've mentioned on the mentors talk pages, though it hasn't been signed here, Headlydown originally did accept the mediation.⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 17:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Archived -- and going forward

All -- the page has been archived in its entirety, save a few comments from mentors intended to guide our discussions from here on out. This is so we can start fresh, with a clean slate. I know this will probably not be popular with some of you, and we're sympathetic to those concerns. So we want to reassure everyone that your views will be heard and considered. This isn't an attempt to censor anyone's viewpoints, but rather to clear the air a bit.

Additionally, you all should know that as of this posting, we will be enforcing Wikipedia's policies on no personal attacks and civility on this and related pages. If a comment falls afoul of these rules, we will refactor it so that it's not offensive. Please try to focus on content, rather than making personal comments, either directed at someone in particular or at a side of the dispute in general. This isn't rocket science -- just be polite. You don't have to agree with one another, and you don't even particularly have to respect one another. But you must be cordial. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 23:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Just chiming in so everyone knows Katefan0 wasn't acting unilaterally. I think we all agreed this was the thing to do. Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 00:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Just wanted to say that I agreed to this as well. And no we are not trying to censor anyone. Just need to clear the air and start fresh. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 09:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

As do I. Sometimes it's best during heated discussion to take a 24-hour break, and reflect on things. Ral315 (talk) 15:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Katefan0. --Dejakitty 00:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that some of my comments are not in the archives...strange...meh.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 17:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

It's possible some comments may have gotten lost in the cleanup; you can add them to the archives if that's the case. But in any case, they're all in the page history. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 17:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I see what happened... sorry. I thought I'd copied all the way down, but hadn't. Everything should be in there now. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 17:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Workshop

All,

We have opened a workshop page which you are free to edit; it's at Neuro-linguistic programming/Workshop. Here are the ground rules:

• No reverts.
• If there is a section of the text that you have problems with, move it to the workshop's talk page where you will be expected to discuss it and come to a consensus. Text moves may not be reverted.
• Non-trivial changes must be discussed on the talk page.
• No incivility. Anything that's rude will be refactored or removed.
• Mind the arbcom's directions on sourcing and attribution of views.
• Any changes that receive a consensus and follow WP's policies can be incorporated into the main page.
• Those who can't follow the rules will earn a block.

A related note: We are watching related pages and will be enforcing the arbcom's probation on those pages -- including Principles of NLP, Tony Robbins, Engram and any other related pages. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 15:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Universal applicability claim needs explaining

Hi all. A very important claim that NLP promonents make is that NLP is universally acceptable simply because it is all form and no content (Dilts et al 1980).

I think this needs explaining especially from a scientific point of view. I can have a stab at it now though. Generalizablilty is a key word often used in scientific papers that measure the efficacy of various methods. Also, the term "limitations" is a very important concept. These seem largely to be absent from NLP texts, and indeed, the NLP push is generally towards "unlimited potential" and universal application or general use. I believe the terms, "panacea", "universally applicable" and "unequivocal" could be used in both the opening and the main body of the NLP article. Camridge 09:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Citation

When the page is unprotected, could the citation in the first line, Lilienfeld et al 2003;Raso 1994, be footnoted? — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 14:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

We already agreed to footnote the citations...that can therefore be done while protected, as nothing is being deleted/added.Voice-of-All^T|@|ESP 01:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Unprotected

I've unprotected this because there has been no discussion on the talk page in well over a week. --Tony Sidaway 01:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Try Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming/Workshop instead. Of course this could've been pointed out if you'd left a polite talk page message to one of us four. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 22:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I didn't realise the mentors were holding this on that tight a leash. Wow, must be some serious problems here! --Tony Sidaway 02:42, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Yep there is. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 02:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Understatement of the year award, Tony...and it's only March! ;-) Akulkis 22:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscientific

forgive me for not reading the umpteen archived talk pages, but is it really accurate to state that NLP is pseudoscience? i was under the impression that NLP methods were subjected to hypothesis testing, and that the researchers found that the NLP methods work. also, even if this is disputed, isn't it POV to describe NLP as pseudoscientific right there in the first sentence of the article? not trying to rouse rabble; just trying to increase knowledge. Streamless 14:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

• I agree. IMO, it violates WP:NPOV to explicitly state (and in the opening) that this is pseudoscience. NPOV would dictate that we say that authorities A, B, and C have called it pseudoscience, without actually taking a position on the issue in the encyclopedic voice. BTW, why is this article protected? Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 18:06, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

As the result of a recent arbitration committee case Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming. Work is ongoing at Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming/Workshop, which is mentioned at the top of this page. You're both more than welcome to come participate -- much work is needed on disputed text that isn't terribly NPOV. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 18:24, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

i don't know much, but i think there should be a distinction between the application of certain elements of NLP (e.g. using certain phrases, gestures and expressions in conversations in an attempt to make others feel relaxed or happy) and the "sale" of NLP as part of the self-improvement industry. Streamless 20:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I was under the impression that NLP doesn't claim confirmed scientific status, but acknowledges that it's a work in progress; wouldn't using the term protoscience be more accurate while still conveying that it's "kind-of" science? Eringj 00:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. I look up NLP on wikipedia and the first thing I see, on a protected page, is that it is pseudoscience and that's a fact. You can't leave that as the first thing on a page, protected for an extended period, using the justification of achieving objectivity! That's just bizarre. --82.41.96.242 00:18, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Dianetics and pseudoscience.

Hello editors. It's been some time now. An RfC has been filed on the Talk:Dianetics article regarding its npov status (the main page, not the talk page). As NLP and Dianetics apparently have some similarities, I thought you all might be interested to weigh in here. Mentors and admins on this page, I'd be especially interested in your comments on the revert war firing across that page (4 content reversions, and 1 content deletion out of a total of 6 edits for a day?). Thanks for your time and interest. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 07:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The supposed similarities between NLP and Scientology are highly contentious and cannot be suported to any degree that could be describd as meeting a NPOV standard. At the same time, the differences between NLP and Scientology are overwhelming. I can see only one point on the current page referring to a specific similarity between the two practices, but it still seems a little slanted. 'Clearing blocks' is not a phrase I have really seen used in NLP literature. The underlying concept is that we learn patterns of behaviour which serve us in some way at the time, but as circumstances change these patterns can become problematic, so it is more useful to learn new patterns. This concept is not unique to Scientology, or even to the new age. It is the theoretical basis underpinning Freudian clinical psychotherapy. Therefore I propose the following edit (I've been careful only to add to, rather than overwrite someone else's POV):

NLP participants are taught that the human mind can be programmed, and that mis-programming by negative input is the norm. Like Fredudian psychoanalysis, Scientology, rebirthing and other clinical and alternative therapies (Raso 1994)(Lilienfeld 2003) NLP embraces this Null Hypothesis and the classic concept of 'clearing' or 'reprogramming' these blocks (Singer 1996).

I'm new here, so forgive me if this comment is in the wrong place, i'm genuinely interested in contributing to a resolution. --Jrds 05:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I know little of NLP or Scientology, but I do know that the author, Robert Anton Wilson, is one of the strongest supporters of NLP but one of the biggest critics of Scientology. --82.41.96.242 00:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello 82.41.96.242. It is a fact that many scientists view NLP as pseudoscience. Robert Anton Wilson is an advocate of NLP and the occult. In fact, he says that before embarking on practicing occult rituals, start off by taking psychoactive drugs and learning NLP. If you wish to present any such facts, the NLP workshop would be a good place to start. ATB Camridge 03:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

If I thought I had much to add. All I'd like to see is a more balanced article sooner rather than later - perfection is never possible. By the way, Wilson holds degress in both physics and psychology, for what its worth. But the point I am really making, is that the workshop process can't be allowed to drag on for months and months as this one appears to be doing. An intermediate update, based on the workshop so far, would be preferable surely? --82.41.96.242 11:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Please tag appropriately

Hello mentors. Could somebody put a tag or two on this article that accurately reflects the ongoing dispute. Something like {Template:POV} ? I don't think a majority of readers will bother wading through the various sub-levels of talk pages and articles to find out why it's been locked from editing. I realise it's an out-of-process request, but then again, it's fairly out-of-process to lock an article for this long. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 09:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Okey-doke. Ashibaka tock 01:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

John Bradshaw

As far as history goes, it might be worth noting that inner child pop psychology guru John Bradshaw was a NLP practitioner and promoter prior to his "dysfunctional family" movement heyday. Mr Christopher 17:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Notice

Please note that Johntex has been made a mentor for Neuro-linguistic programming, per the arbitration ruling, to join the current four. Hopefully this will help things run better. Dmcdevit·t 01:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much - I hope I can help out. Best, Johntex\^talk 01:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Basic NLP factuality is still poorly explained

Moved to Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming/Workshop

Advice (not an order!) from Jimbo

I fully and completely trust the admins who are mentoring this page to use good judgment and to keep a very close eye on the page and work with all the editors (especially those who were the subject of the arbcom ruling) to generate a peaceful and harmonious editing process. I would like to suggest, as gently as possible of course, and with full consideration for the difficult task you have accepted, that protecting the page is something that should be done sparingly and only for very specific reasons.

One of the things that we want to produce as an outcome of this is, hopefully, friendships among the previously warring parties, and a sense among them that they should behave in a trustworthy manner because, in part, we have shown that we trust them. Page protection doesn't move things forward in that arena. Of course, if page protection is necessary, then it is necessary.

As I say, I trust your judgment, and I only came to give a small bit of hopefully helpful thoughts on the matter.--Jimbo Wales 23:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Greetings Jimbo. Protecting the page is a hard measure. There are many things I would like to change, especially regarding the improvement and representation of the sociological views on NLP. However, protecting the page has definitely led to a far more peaceful communication between editors, largely due to it preventing the desperate censorship of the article. I believe it to be a wise move. We are getting the hang of civility, and the NLP advocates have been reducing their repeat requests for removing scientific views, and for removing the "incriminating" statements of NLP authors and promoters. "Friendship" is indeed closer than before. The block history is very one sided, but I realise thats only because the NLP advocates are always on the verge of leaving and the mentors are reluctant to scare the NLPadvocates away altogether. Whatever, I also trust the mentors to move this forward, and I appreciate your encouragement. It will all help us in the months and years to come. ATB. Camridge 08:15, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

In the months and years to come? How long do you intend locking this page? It seems to me, as someone just visiting the topic, that someone isn't picking up on the hints from senior wikipedians to get the finger out. The locking process itself is close to vandalism, as I see it, in this case. --82.41.96.242 17:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Can I suggest to the mentors a brief, prominent paragraph at the top of the talk page, explaining why the page is protected, how the mentoring works, and directing people to the workshop page? At the moment it's not obvious to people not familiar with this dispute (such as me) what is going on here. Enchanter 07:47, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

There is a prominent paragraph at the top. I added a bit to it. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 07:59, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Enchanter 08:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is this page still protected?

I'm getting increasingly concerned at how long this page has been protected for. Protection of pages in the case of content disputes is generally meant to be for a "cooling off" period. That is, when tempers have got too high and productive editing is replaced by unproductive edit-warring, we protect the page so that everyone can go away for a few days and come back when people have had a chance to cool off and maybe give the article some more thought. The current protection has been in place for much longer than is warranted just for cooling off, and it's just not obvious to me why. It is stated that the article is protected "as the result of the arbcom decision"; however, while I stand to be corrected if I'm missing something, I can't see anything there that would suggest protecting the page, and certainly not for this abnormal length of time.

As Jimbo states above, protection should be used sparingly and for specific reasons. I request that the page is unprotected. I'm quite happy to change my mind if there are particular reasons why protection is absolutely necessary, but in any case there needs to be some sort of timetable or specific plan to move towards unprotection. Enchanter 01:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The page is still protected as a result of an arbcom case, as it says above, because the people participating on the page can't work together. At some point it will be, but not yet. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 16:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

That hasn't answered my question; as I said, it is stated that the page is protected "as a result of an arbcom case", but I can't see anything in the arbcom case that even mentions protecting the page. Please could you point me to the part of the arbcom case, decision, related discussion where it was decided to protect the page for longer than the typical cooling-off period?

I recognise that page protection is sometimes necessary, and I recognise that I haven't followed all of the facts or background of this case in detail. However, a page protection for this length of time is very unusual and not in line with normal policies, so there need to be good reasons and these need to be presented clearly. Enchanter 17:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Mentorship changes

As Ral315 and Jdavidb have both recently resigned, Will Beback has been appointed as a new mentor, to bring the total back up to the original 4. Dmcdevit·t 05:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)