Talk:Anti-Catholicism/Archive 1

Umm, why put an attention tag on a talk page? If the article needs attention, put a more specific tag (NPOV maybe) there.

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What is the term for religious or political opposition to the Roman Catholic Church irrespictive of any mischaracterizations, stereotypes and negative prejudices?

Balance

For balance, the page should acknowledge that the charge of anti-Catholicism has been leveled for a variety of different reasons not directly related to the issue. The Brooklyn Museum censorship issue comes to mind. In that case, the mayor of New York attempted to defund the museum because of an exhibit including what he deemed to be an offensive depiction of the Virgin Mary, purporting that it was anti-Catholic. In that case, the charge was motivated by a desire to suppress alleged blasphemy. In the case of the current scandals involving the Vatican Bank, as well as the better known priest child abuse cover-ups, back channels at high levels within the Church hierarchy, perhaps even the current Pope, have been reported to blame Jews for fabricating the scandals to further Jewish interests. This clearly anti-semitic motive is enough of a hot button issue to keep everyone involved "off the record", but the reports are pretty convincing that the tendancy to blame media reports concerning Church scandals on Jews is a real problem.

Also, uncritical reliance on literature produced by the Catholic League, which advocates political positions in the USA in very harsh terms, and frequently resorts to extreme ad hominim attacks against those with whom it disagrees, takes this article out of the realm of reasonable scholarship. While the Catholic League's positions deserve attention, they should not be cited as an unimpeachable, objective source.

I think that the charge of anti-Catholicism and anti-Christianity in general has been leveled by conservatives in the U.S.'s "culture wars" as a means to silence cultural liberals and advocates of church/state separation. This deserves attention in this article.

Adam Holland 21:35, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay I guess, I'll do a bit on that, but proceed with some caution. Limiting any reliance on the Catholic League is a good idea. However there is a valid historical aspect to the concept, not just conservative scaremongering. Initially the article was too much "anyone who disagrees with the Catholic faith is Anti-Catholic," and that was very wrong. At the same time though I'd hate for this to go the other way too much and become yet another Wiki article on how Catholicism really is so terribly unpleasant they possibly get whatever they deserve.(Which is where I think it's starting to head)--T. Anthony 01:59, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

As for the Brooklyn Museum issue I personally don't think art of any kind should be government funded. Because when a group holds the purse strings it's just common sense that sooner or later they'll want control. The kings and governments of ye olden days who gave patronage to artists were quite clear on that point. Hence artists like Goya had to make their criticism subtle or in least subtle enough to fool their patrons. To want that kind of painting to have municipal support in a city with a Catholic mayor was either rank stupidity or complete naivete on that man's part.--T. Anthony 04:38, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

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The last few edits here were very good. The earlier version had a very un-neutral POV, and assumed that being opposed to Catholicism for whatever reason was always wrong apriori. Good job.

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Surely some mention should be given to the child abuse scandals (Ireland and worldwide) in relation to anti-catholicism or at least criticism. This is a major issue for the Catholic church, for both those who follow and oppose it.

Yes, but you put it at the beginning and I don't think you did a good job of it either. I'll look through it to see what, if anything, in it is worth salvaging.--T. Anthony 03:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

To user T. Anthony >> So you decided to take absolutly everything from the article? This is the typical respose that is leading to the downfall of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland and the reason they are losing respect, ignoring that child abuse was ever a problem- stupid. Also i took that article from a newspaper article so if was badly written it just needed some editing not deleting, that just proved that you are not neutral and any further edits you make on this article should be scrutinized.

That information was already elsewhere so I provided a link to it. A long discussion of the sex abuse scandal in an article on a historic phenomenon was unnecessary.--T. Anthony 23:10, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

By unnecessary I mean there is an article for that scandal. This isn't really an article about that and the information was just plopped in with little explanation of relevance. I have kept most of it this time though, against my better judgment, and the link is still there.--T. Anthony 23:22, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

nonsense blanked —No-One Jones ^(m) 20:35, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC) This article should be called Anti-Catholicism not Anti-Catholic!

Now it is. --Whosyourjudas (talk) 03:27, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This Article should have more information and some pictures. This article needs to have the history of Anti-catholicism as well1

Indeed, there's a great deal of stuff out there for which this article only scratches the surface. Within the religious field, the Great Apostasy article is pretty good, has been wrestled over a long time, and covers a lot of the same ground. I started a second section on political Anti-Catholicism, which wants even more expansion; needs to mention Titus Oates for instance. The Orange Order probably ought not to be left to a see-also. The Kulturkampf and the French Revolution need to be discussed in fairly broad detail to make it less US and UK-centric. -- Smerdis of Tlön 15:18, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have flagged an NPOV dispute over this article, as it uses the term "Anti-Catholicism" to lump together a very wide range of issues, from some obviously wacky stuff, to contributions to legitimate historical or theological debates which the author happens to disagree with.--PatGallacher (talk) 13:39, 08 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hi Pat, could you be more specific? Perhaps you could list issues here that you feel do not belong in this article, or just go ahead and edit it as you see fit. Also, regarding your statement that the article lists some issues "which the author happens to disagree with" as being anti-Catholic: please keep in mind, there is probably never a single author of a Wikipedia article - at least not for very long. If you feel one or more contributors have biased the article, lets fix it! Thanks, Harris7 18:34, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I can see a number of problems. The claim that the RCC has chosen to ally itself with various sorts of authoritarian politics, monarchism, Fascism, and Falangism in particular, seems to me to be pretty fairly well borne out in history. (See, e.g., the Syllabus of Errors). Claiming that to call attention to this history is "anti-Catholic" strikes me as strongly POV. I'd like to see a reference that anyone has ever claimed that the RCC was allied with Freemasonry, or for that matter that if such an alliance has been suggested, it is considered somehow derogatory because Freemasonry is supposed to be bad for some mysterious reason. -- Smerdis of Tlön 19:28, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The whole article is very dubious. Isn't a Protestant, a Muslim or a Jew by definition anti-Catholic, since any debate between a catholic and protestant theologian going to include attacks of various kinds on the beliefs of the other faith? Is it "anti-catholic" to dispute the Pope's claims to be head of the universal church?

If by analogy with anti-semitism we are going to define anti-catholicism as attacks on catholics or the church that are generally regarded as irrational, exaggerated and hate-inspired, then I think the following things should be removed:-

• The idea that the Church suppressed a golden age of feminism and liberalism that supposedly existed prior to the establishment of Christianity.

IMO this idea is nonsense - but is anyone advancing this seriously? That said, it is arguable that the catholic church has historically been hostile to women, but is hardly unique in such an attitude - most Abrahamic faiths share such an attitude.

• The idea that the Catholic Church opposed all advances in science and thought, Galileo Galilei, while ignoring its huge positive contributions in these spheres. Roger Bacon, Copernicus, Gregor Mendel etc.

In the case of Galileo (whose works were on the Index for 200 years), it was, or can be so argued. In other cases, it wasn't. It's a legitimate topic for debate. As was the hostile attitude of protestant churches to science at the same time. White's famous article attacked both.

• It is worthy of note that Gallileo was not condemned for heliocentrism, but rather for declaring that the Bible be taken literally in apparently geocentric passages, and was consequently false. Other heliocentrists, e.g., Copernicus, were pious Catholics.--Thomas Aquinas

• The idea that the Church was a uniquely repressive institution that was concerned entirely with the acquisition of wealth and power.

Surely a legitimate subject for debate. The Popes exercised temporal power down to 1870 and didn't give it up willingly.

• The claim that the Inquisition killed fantastically huge numbers of people in the Middle Ages, either heretics or witches (figures are sometimes quoted in the millions). See Black Legend

Claims on the numbers vary. But then so they do for any atrocity you care to mention. Witches of course were killed by Catholics and Protestants alike. That doesn't mean they were not killed by Catholics, or that the Inquisition didn't exist.

• The claim that the crusades were a completely unprovoked attack on Islam, and that the crusaders were particularly venial and brutal compared to their opponents.

Again, there is room for debate here. Such a debate shouldn't be suppressed. There is evidence that Jews and Christians fared better in Muslim countries than Jews and Muslims in Christian countries.

• Actually, Jews and Muslims in Catholic nations were permitted to practice their faith without government molestation. This is a position supported by the Church, even in the Middle Ages, considering that Aquinas' Summa Theologica, which received nihil obstat and imprimatur, condones it. Only those who acted as though they were converts while secretly practicing their old religion received governmental punishment or sanction.--Thomas Aquinas

• Claims that catholicism was allied with movements such as Freemasonry, Fascism and Nazism.

The Freemasonry claim sounds like a joke. The others - clearly individual catholics became Fascists and Nazis, and others died as martyrs at the hands of the Nazis. The official attitude of the Church is a matter for debate, once again.

• The Church, officially, was vehemently opposed to Nazism and Fascism. Consider the anti-Nazi encyclical "Mit Brenneder Sorge," written in German to specify the audience (most encyclicals are written originally in Latin). Merely because Catholics were among their numbers does not imply Church approval.--Thomas Aquinas

• The claim that the Catholic Church did nothing to stop six million Jews from being murdered by the Nazis during the Holocaust.

It clearly did nothing very useful to stop it. But then neither did the Protestant church. Again, a fit subject for debate.

• The assertion that the Church was silent during the Holocaust is laughable. Jews and other victims were allowed to stay in the Pope's summer home, Castel Gandolfo, to prevent persecution, and Pope Pius XII was so fervently anti-nazi that Hitler ordered him (unsuccessfully) kidnapped.--Thomas Aquinas

Clearly, SOME people who advance these arguments do so out of prejudice. However having noted that the arguments should be tackled on their merits or otherwise.

• Da Vinci Code

This is a work of fiction. The claims regarding Jesus and Mary Magdalene can be seen as blasphemous, but would be so seen by Protestants (and possibly Muslims) as well.

• The Catholic Church has also been attacked for opposing birth control, abortion, homosexuality and for not ordaining women as priests and bishops.

Good grief. Is criticising the church for its doctrines and actions anti-catholic? For pete's sake, CATHOLICS make these criticisms - are they anti-catholic too?

Seriously considering a request for deletion

Exile 14:44, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I tend to agree, especially, that the last section at least is over the top, attempts to set up a straw man, and that what little of value in it probably ought to be merged into the religious or political sections. Roman Catholics are understandably eager to portray any criticism of their religion as a matter of "bigotry," and this tendency needs to be guarded against. Still, the topic is valid and with enough edit wars might approach a reasonably NPOV state. Nothing here strikes me as falling within the deletion guidelines. It's an encyclopedic topic, and NPOV disputes don't count. -- Smerdis of Tlön 17:53, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

On second thoughts you're right. It does need a lot of "attention" IMO.

If it were to be retitled "Criticisms of Catholicism" or "... of the Roman Catholic Church" and the wacky anti-catholic stuff given as a subsection or in a separate article? Or just list the criticisms noting that some of them appear to be the result of bigotry.

Exile 10:29, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Can the Catholic church claim any credit for Copernicus? He only went public on his heliocentric theories a few weeks before his death, aware of the stir this would cause. His works were banned by the Catholic church along with Galileo's up to the 1830s, and a few years after the ban was lifted, when they unveiled a statue of him in Warsaw, no priest would officiate at the ceremony. This suggests that he could have met the same fate as Galileo if he had lived longer. In what way is the popular image of Galileo wide of the mark? PatGallacher (talk) 11:25 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Copernicus was in fact never condemned by the Catholic Church. As a substantiation, I offer the lack of any heresy trials against him.--Thomas Aquinas

I've had debates on this subject elsewhere. The present Pope admits the Church erred in its treatment of Galileo. I wonder if that makes the Pope anti-catholic?

16:42, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Considering a rewrite - keeping the content but making it more NPOV in tone. Difficult!

Exile 22:33, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It definitely needs a rewrite; a great deal of it is a blatent attempt to gain unwarranted sympathy. If you try and overthrow a country, one might expect that country to dislike you. Likewise with scientific progress; though the chruch has not always been a barrier to it, it has often in the past been quite a barrier to science, and is known to spread lies about contraceptives (particularly condoms) in South America and Africa. Saying things like "It set back the progress of science" is more than likely true, as a number of scientists/inquiring minds did not publish/kept quiet/did not do certain bits of research for fear of upsetting the church, as in the case of Gallelio. Claiming this to be anti-Catholic is nonsense; it is a matter of common historic record. The exaggerated claims of the Inquisition (which was brutal, but which has also been inflated) might be classifiable as anti-Catholic, but mentioning it and the Crusades is hardly anti-Catholic. It is tantamount to saying that critizing the policies of Israel is anti-semetic, or of palastine as being anti-Arab.

Admittedly the church has moved forward in the 20th century, acknowledging evolution, mending some of the rifts with other religions, ect. However, it is not perfect and critizing a faith or an organization is not an act of bigotry. I disagree with a great deal of church policy. My parents do too - and they're Catholic. Titanium Dragon 04:40, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Request for assistance

I would like to request that some assistance be given to filling in The Two Babylons page! - Ta bu shi da yu 09:32, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Page rewrite

As this page was previously heavily biased (the general consesus here appears to agree with me on this), I have rewritten the page. It now describes what types of behavior are generally characterized as anti-Catholic. Hopefully, I've kept the POV neutral, but as I am Catholic, maybe some subconcious bias slipped in, so correct as needed. Kenj0418 01:07, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

Seems NPOV has been restored. Removing catagorization. PhatJew 10:32, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Criticising Catholic dogma

I change the line that read:

Criticising Catholic dogma, and then silencing those Catholics who speak in defense of the teachings of their church.

back to:

Criticising Catholic dogma

because:

1. Silencing someone from expressing their religious beleifs is beyond the scope of this article. If the comment was meant to say that they were not provided a forum to express their beleifs along with those critcising them, then it is irrelevant (see next item).
2. The critism itself is what is generally labeled as anti-Catholic. For example, if a Baptist group were to critise the Catholic's veneration of saints or Mary, this view would be considered anti-Catholic regardless of whether a Catholic rebuttal was allowed or not.

Kenj0418 18:02, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

Is a good-faith criticism of Catholic dogma, on a purely theological/intellectual basis and submitted in a civil and respectful way by a well-meaning Protestant as part of a Catholic/Protestant ecumenical dialogue anti-Catholic? My own connotations for "anti-Catholic" include motivations of malice or at least reckless disregard of what Catholic doctrine really teaches, as opposed to what the challenger believes it to be. BTW, "doctrine" and "dogma" aren't really interchangeable, and I'd propose substituting "doctrine" for "dogma" throughout.

Just my $0.02 worth.

I changed Criticising Catholic dogma after having been shown to be incorrect to Criticising Catholic dogma. Reasons: the "after having been shown to be incorrect" part is highly POV. But I have to admit that I'd prefer removing the whole sentence, since criticising a catholic dogma in an non-polemic, scientific way is IMHO not anti-catholic per se. 85.124.182.40 22:43, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Is this page of any value?

What is the purpose of this page? All it accomplishes as far as I can see is to point out that a person who is against Catholcism in any way can be described as anti-Catholic. But then a person opposed to baptist could be called anti-Baptist or a person opposed to cats could be called anti-cat. All this page seems to do is define the prefix anti and define it only in one very limitted context. If wikipedia really needs to explain what "anti" means (which I don't think it does as it isn't a dictionary) then anti should be given an entry not anti-catholic. If there is some pattern of anti-Catholicism or particular anti-Catholic movement (as with anti-Semitism) then I can see having an entry. But the entry does not deal with anything like that. It's just hodge podge of ideas that some people see as anti-Catholic.

At one time, I tried to add some historical information to the page, mostly relating to politically motivated persecution of Roman Catholics by other Christians in the UK and USA, with links that discussed the penal laws and similar topics, like the Kulturkampf in Prussia. This material was apparently not wanted here, and almost all of it has been removed; it will appear in the history. Not sure what the criteria for being included is now, other than the implied charge that any criticism of Roman Catholic practices is anti-Catholic bigotry. -- Smerdis of Tlön 17:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree - it has been reduced to saying almost nothing, when the reality is, there is a very definite historical "movement" of anti-Catholicism, especially in the US and UK, which was well outlined in the previous version of this page. So, I have reverted this article back to its pre-rewrite state, and, for starters, removed a couple of the less useful or unsupported statements. As mentioned above, why bother mentioning that the Church is criticised for its stand against abortion, female clergy, etc. - those are simply criticisms or arguments against the Church, not anti-Catholicism, per se. I have also added a reference to Karl Keating's excellent reference, itself a history of anti-Catholicism. - Harris7 05:04, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

FWIW, I added back most of the text from the previous version as a replacement for the older "historical anti-Catholicism" section, which seemed to me to be a caricature and pretty over the top; the edited version struck me as more neutral and plausible. I did add one bit from the reverted version, linking to the so-called "Black Legend", because a link to that page struck me as worth keeping. -- Smerdis of Tlön 14:00, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

NPOV disputes

First, I agree that the scope of this article should be expanded to include historical and modern instances of anti-Catholic persecution or intollerance (either real or perceived). However, I have the following NPOV complaints with the article as it stands now: Kenj0418 06:47, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

1. In general, the older portions of the article which have been restored are heavily biased against those with Anti-Catholic views, and in some cases depict straw man versions of anti-Catholic views. Also numerous times various authors works are refered to as anti-Catholic. I have not read any of these works (nor would I care to), so I will give the editor the benefit of the doubt and assume that the authors of these work would declare them as anti-Catholic and/or they are so blatantly anti-Catholic that such a label would not be disputed.

Traditional anti-Catholicism (which originated during the Reformation) is promoted by Protestant Fundamentalists such as Ian Paisley and Jack Chick, while the new secular anti-Catholicism is generally promoted by secular organisations

1. This makes use of the terms 'traditional anti-Catholicism' and 'secular anti-Catholicism', without any explanation of these or how they differ. (The best I can guess is one is Protestants who don't like Catholics, the other are atheists who don't like Catholics). These terms should either be defined or removed.
2. This makes a blanket statement regarding Protestant Fundamentalists, which should likely be limited (ie. some Protestant .... such as ...) if this statement remains

According to a report by the Catholic League, the Internet has many anti-Catholic websites. Traditional anti-Catholic works include Charles Chiniquy's 50 Years In The Church of Rome and The Priest,the Woman and the Confessional in which he accuses Catholicism of being pagan. Such sentiments are common among some Protestant fundamentalist Christians, denying as they do that the Catholic Church is a Christian church. Proponents often reference Scripture, such as the Book of Revelation, chapters 17 and 18, which they claim depict the Pope as the Antichrist and the Catholic Church as being the "Whore of Babylon". Proponents of anti-Catholicism also claim that the Mass is an abomination in the eyes of Jesus Christ. Many anti-Catholics also claim that Catholics worship Mary.

1. Proponents of anti-Catholicism also claim that the Mass is an abomination in the eyes of Jesus Christ. -- This is a blanket statement regarding all anti-Catholic's. Surely some (even most?) do not see the Mass as an abomination. This statement should be backed up and qualified, or removed.
2. These accusations continue to have some currency because (in Political anti-Catholicis) - This statement is apparently the opinion of the editor. If it is someone elses opinion, then it should be cited as such. If it is the editor's own conclusion, then it should be removed.

Kenj0418 06:47, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup issues

1. Much of the 'Religious anti-Catholicism' section is redundant with the 'Actions frequently labeled Catholic' section. (more of a cleanup issue than an NPOV issue)
2. "the Internet has many anti-Catholic websites" - does this statement have any value? The Internet has many anti-Whatever websites; the Internet is a big place. (cleanup issue) {EDIT} There is a larger problem in that this article lumps all Protestant apologetics into the same bucket. Is Jack Chick really of the same calibre with the same objectives as, say, Alpha and Omega ministries? {/EDIT}
3. Such sentiments are common among some ... is confusing. If they are only common among some, then they are not common. Perhaps something similar to "Those that beleive the Catholic Church is pagan usually site..."
4. The section "Contemporary anti-Catholicism" needs to be integrated into the rest of the article. Currently it is just appended to the older version.
5. "and Dan Brown, whose best-selling The Da Vinci Code" - Regardless of Dan Brown's religion or lack of religion, the mentioned are religious, not political, and this example should be placed in the religious section if the current originization remains (cleanup issue)
6. The See-Also list also needs to be cleaned up. Just be cause another article is mentioned in this article (Jesuits for example), doesn't require a see also link. That is the purpose of the Wiki-links in the article.
7. Several anti-Catholic works are referred to in the article, only one appears under Additional Reading -- is there a reason for this?

Regarding the cleanup/organizational problems. I propose the following organization for the article:

1. Intro (defining different uses of term, that is oppression/intollerance vs. strongly held views in opposition to the Catholic Church (or its teachings, etc)
2. Historical examples of catholic oppression/intollerence
3. Contemporary Anti-catholicism (incorporating much of Relgious Anti-catholicism and contemporary sections)
4. Literary examples of Anti-catholicism

Kenj0418 06:47, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

Political Anti-Catholicism

The article could use some discussion of French mistrust of the Church since the revolution. -- Temtem 04:14, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

Ditto for the Mexican Revolution.

I should have read this Talk page before adding my comment about "anti-clericalism" at the bottom. Anyway, the "French mistrust of the Church" is a perfect example of what I meant by "anti-clericalism". It is partly a result of the post-Enlightenment struggle of church vs. state. It is also a result of people wanting the church to have less control over their lives.

Richard 07:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it make sense to include the enormous Anti-Catholic sentiment which exists in the radical Ulster Loyalist movement of Northern Ireland. From figures like Rev. Ian Paisley, Mad Dog Johnny Addair and groups like the DUP, UVF, UDA, Red Hand Commandos and the United Kingdom Unionist Party? - Chris Gilmore

Cleaning up, addressing NPOV issues

I've removed Some anti-Catholics think the Catholic Church is closer to Islam than Christianity, which seems pretty POV, though it maybe can be reformulated in a better way, with more concrete examples.

Are there any references for the bit on haiti ? I'm not sure that really counts as catholicism, it's more about power politics.

I also rephrased the bit on "anti-catholic authors", so that it doesn't designate them as anti-catholic any more, while acknowledging there influence in anti-catholic sentiment. Flammifer 15:27, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

You know how it is in Detroit. . .

The claim is made in the photograph caption that anti-Catholicism is more prevalent in Detroit than elsewhere. The photo seems to have been made of a billboard that seeks to draw people to a website (that apparently no longer exists) that purported to contain "free proof" that the Pope was the Antichrist. Even given that the billboard was erected in Detroit, I'm not sure this is enough to make the case that anti-Catholicism is unusually common in Detroit. Anyone care to explain? Smerdis of Tlön 15:02, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I think the billboard is actually from Oregon, and I have never heard that there are a lot of anti-Catholics in Detroit. In fact, I'd suspect the opposite. -- Temtem 20:35, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Detroit reference taken down

T. Anthony: I took down the mention of Detroit under the picture and replaced it with a statement that the picture refers to a website. "I think it's from Oregon" sounded a little too uncertain to me so I just didn't say where it's from.

Picture surely not from detroit or metro area, mountians and or rolling hills do match the topography of the area.

Although I'm Catholic I did see the article was fairly biased. In the last week I've tried to cut out several things that indicated any kind of criticism of Catholicism is Anti-Catholic. I've instead tried to focus on Anti-Catholicism that considers Catholicism to be a cult, Satanic, an evil conspiracy, an object to be attacked violently, etc. I've also copied pictures from other articles that struck me as appropriate. However I'm not entirely satisfied with the Bismarck one, but I'm not sure what to replace it with at present.

There are some additions I made I fear will be unacceptable. Hence when I wrote that paragraph largely concerning Dostoevsky I expected a backlash. In fact how I had it originally written seemed unfair even to me. I've tried to indicate he simply made use of the themes and that his hostility was mostly against the hierarchy. Still I felt the article was too Protestant-specific on the issue of Religious Anti-Catholicism so wanted to use an Orthodox example. In support of that choice mention of Dostoevsky as using Anti-Catholicism or simply being Anti-Catholic occurs in my copies of The Norton Anthology of World Masterpieces and The Brothers Karamazov.

Of greater concern to me is the use of an unscientific Yahoo! search I did for the topic. I'm open to removing that or if another editor wants to drop it I'm amenable to that. However the role of the Net in modern hate-groups can be important so it seems like there should be some way to mention it. Picture surely not from detroit or metro area, mountians and or rolling hills do match the topography of the area. Lastly by admitting to have done much of the editing this week I'm aware I'm risking it all being undone. However this is Wikipedia and as you say you can't get too attached to any edit you make. Still as a Catholic, whose relatives in the South suffered real persecution for it, I'm interested in this topic so I hope the article can be made useful and fair as possible.

Note: I replaced the picture of Bismarck with one of Miguel Pro's execution. Although elements of it sound debatable I put the internal link to him with it. It struck me though as a more arresting image than sour old Bismarck:).

Addendum: I've noticed that since I posted this it's been reverted a few times. In a way I can see that as I may have put in too many pictures and was maybe long-winded. However the part on the Mexican regime seemed pretty valid to me so I've put much of that back. If anyone is offended by that I'm willing to hear the reason.

Also I wonder if the quotes from John Jay and Samuel Adams offended some people. If so I won't put them back. In the case of both though they are not my opinion, they are based on actual writings of both. In the case of John Jay I do have several sources for it.

The Search Engine Test

I tried testing this claim..

To demonstrate: if "Catholic priest" or "Catholic Nun" is typed into most search engines, it's likely that most sites that show up will be former nuns or priests, bitter against Catholics, or tales of scandal.

• Catholic Priest [1]: A mix of critical sites and others. The first was the Department of Labor basically saying that the Catholic Church is hiring...

• Catholic Nun [2] A little more accurate, but not perfect. Karmafist 03:56, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

The Net

You know I wrote that thing about priests and nuns, but afterward it did strike me as too subjective and likely off. Later, I think, I replaced it by saying that Anti-Catholic slogans get you more hits than Anti-Protestant ones. I think that's still true. "Catholicism is a cult" should get more then "Protestantism is a heresy." Checking it just now through your link "Catholicism is a cult" gets 665 pages. "Protestantism is a heresy" got about 230 hits. Although admittedly this could be because there are maybe three times as many Catholics as Protestants depending on whether you count Anglicans as Protestants. Either way I took that version down too, or maybe I never submitted it in full, because of the various problems with it. For one in both cases the sites with those statements could be rebuking those ideas. Therefore I have no way to check how many sites actually claiming either position are out there then. Further some of the sites seriously holding those ideas are generalized racism/bigotry sites that could be offensive.

I think the current version of the page simply talks about a Christian humor site noticing that the angriest or most vicious jokes involve Catholics. This is true I believe, but admittedly I haven't checked "Ship of Fools" lately. On that I do not mean to suggest they are an Anti-Catholic website as I really don't know. I'm just reporting what they said they received.

Anyway the "priests and nuns" thing was an early effort and probably mistaken. I apologize if it annoyed you. If it's still on the page I don't know what to say. T. Anthony

Vague curiosity

I imagine this will always be NPOV, but I wonder if there is a way to have something about this subject that would be less controversial. Although I was mistaken in thinking "Anti-Catholicism" was a topic in the encyclopedias I know it is of some historical relevance. Maybe put what's useful in this article in one of the articles on the Know-Nothings or Nativists movements?--T. Anthony 08:34, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Anti-Catholicism in Russia

A good source : http://www.yale.edu/ycias/europeanstudies/empire/Paper-Weeks.pdf

Hey thanks. It's the wrong hour for me to look over it, but I figured the parts about Russia are kind of poor at present. Although I knew Anti-Catholicism was significant in Russia in that period.--T. Anthony 10:54, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I've made a few changes because it was pretty biased in its wording. I didn't remove much factual information except for some things at the end I thought were irrelevant but if anyone feels differently just put it back in. XYaAsehShalomX 11:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

It looks okay I think. I made a slight change on Haiti, I don't think giving Voudouns freedom is itself Anti-Catholic really which is how it was reading, but otherwise I don't see a problem yet. Although it's a weird hour for me so I may later.--T. Anthony 12:57, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Copernicanism was not furthered by the RC Church, so stop referring to him as such, the remark that he was not condemned in life is a weazel expression if I have ever seen one. Copernicus "Revolutionibus" was condemned in 1616 and remained on the index uintil 1740. Please stop undoing my edit. --Isolani 17:05, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

No it's not a weasel expression, it's a statement of his actual life. The Chinese condemned Wei Jing after death then changed their mind several times back and forth. That doesn't retroactively unmake Wei Jing as a Chinese official. Still I'll accept him being off, but what was the deal with mentioning Savanorola when doing so?--T. Anthony 21:24, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Copernicanism was not furthed by the Church, except that Copernicus was indeed a Catholic priest, working for the church. That is something that is usually omited when criticizing the Church and its followers. Can we say something to that effect?--Cuchullain 20:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Saying that the Catholic church furthered copernicanism is like saying that the RC Church furthered the Theology of Jansen (Jansenism) because he was an ordained bishop and was never condemned during his lifetime. The deal with savanorola was that one of the charges made against him was that he held 'the heresy of copernicanism', showing that copernicanism wasn`t 'furthered' in any way by the church. Otherwise, no offence intended and sorry if I did offend anyone. I get a bit touchy at times. --Isolani 23:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Do you mean Giordano Bruno? Girolamo Savonarola was excommunicated in 1497 for prophecy and sedition. In 1497 Nicolaus Copernicus was just starting his observations and had not yet even written his Commentariolus. Still I get that Copernicus is more of a Catholic rather than a person whose science was supported by the Catholic Church.(A meaningful difference) Protestantism was rising in Poland towards the end of his life though so I think if he'd wanted to quit being Catholic he could've done so. Also to keep the number of names roughly the same I'll add somebody.--T. Anthony 00:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Citations needed

I tagged a bunch of statements in the Abuse of the term section as wanting sources. I stopped short of tagging the whole article as unsourced, though it is. An article like this, that, by its nature, makes a bunch of accusations, really needs to be well-sourced. --Elliskev 13:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I had that section because someone indicated I wasn't allowing stuff about the sex scandal in. I wasn't allowing it in because it's mostly a modern issue, but the guy was insistent so I threw that stuff together. I'll just remove pretty much that whole thing now.--T. Anthony 20:54, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits

I have to say I'm not totally out of sympathy with the recent edits. I did add criticism sections, but I kind of wish that hadn't been necessary. There is no similar section at Anti-Protestantism even though Protestants have certainly killed a fair amount of people for their religions. They've likely killed less because they've been around less. That said I think those sections have validity as a historical explanation for behaviors and perhaps the solution is to add a section to Anti-Protestantism rather than remove one from here.

However Philip Jenkins book is a valid mention I feel. Possibly skepticism about his position can be raised, but it is an actual book. It is written by a actual historian, rather than say by a journalist or something, and published by a prestigious university. I gave the ISBN though to add to that.--T. Anthony 07:40, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not just that Protestants have been around for less time. Here are some other reasons...

1. there have also been fewer of them
2. there is no single unified doctrine or leadership to take aim at
3. they tend to split off into denominations and sects rather than killing those who disagree (unless they are Catholics--remember the slaughters in England and Ireland, including the famine)
4. they have wielded less temporal power and therefore have not aligned their interests with those of the state as closely (except in England, parts of Germany, the Netherlands and the Scandanavian countries-actually most Protestant countries)
5. the virtuous tendency of Catholics to stay focused on the Gospel of Jesus Christ rather than on the obvious flaws in the claims of Protestants.

Moreover, anti-Protestantism isn't identified separately because most people who have anti-Protestant sentiments have anti-Christian sentiments, opposing both Catholics and Protestants equally. The only ones who don't are Catholics and Orthodox Christians. In contrast, anti-Catholicism encompasses both Protestants AND secularists.

One could make a case for specific "anti-x" sentiments (e.g. "anti-Mormonism, anti-Jehovah's witnesses") etc. But "anti-Protestantism"? I don't think it's an easily defined concept.

--Richard 15:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The first two lines, hyperlinkism, chronology?

Any article who's page-head introduction is this negative and/or dismissive is in need of a re-evaluation. It simply doesn't read like an encyclopedia article introduction. Granted, this is a pretty weighty article (as are most anti-<insert policy, group, or belief system here> articles), but that hasn't stopped us before. If we can agree on anything, it has to be the dignity of the information we're trying to collect here. The introduction to this page doesn't seem to share that sentiment.

Beyond that, the page seems to be suffering from a great deal of link-to-everything/insert-a-million-quotes syndrome, which makes for impressive, if not actually substantive, writing. I get the feeling that those who have attempted to balance the article out have felt compelled to do so by providing external-source-link counterweight, which might even the article out overall, but certainly degrades the read quality and muddies the page. Many of the best articles (and consequently, a good bulk of really great practices behind them) aren't especially fond of the external link arrows. It's imporant to have grounds for contributing specific statements, but riddling your paragraph with links isn't going to make it any more credible than being true in the first place. Put the source links in the bottom, where they belong, and paraphrase long passages which aren't directly pertinent. Anything which requires half a dozen inline external sources is probably (but not always) heading off the deep end.

Generalization? Of course. But it helps... a lot.

I also get the impression that it attempts to provide a sort of "field guide" for recognizing and categorizing anti-catholic behavior. My own understanding of the wikipedia leads me to believe a chronological, rather than categorial, organization of this page would provide a better backbone for further edits without miring the whole affair in NPOV and personal sensitivity issues, which are simply going to occur in pages like this. I'll watch this page for a while, and if nothing comes about, i'll do my best to rework it chronologically.

Hopefully something new will come of it, and the page will take on a new, less burdened, life.

Helicon 07:28, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I trimmed the introduction. Next I'm going to improve the organization and the selection of detail. While I'm not going to solicit approval before I make each change, I'm happy to explain or discuss if asked. --quo 17:00, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that was quite an improvement. I went ahead and killed the last sentence as well. It doesn't really add anything factual and i have a feeling it might have raised some eyebrows. If you have an objection to the cut, let me know. Helicon 21:50, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Jack Chick

Why were all references to Jack Chick taken out of the article? He is the best example of contemporary anti-Catholicism AND he has more than religious disagreements with Catholics. Consistantly depicting Catholics as physically ugly and mean and accusing them of being part of a global plot to take over the world isn't a legitimate criticism (religious or otherwise) by any standard and deserves a bit of attention in this article so that people can see that the term "anti-Catholic" wasn't just invented by the Vatican or conservatives to gain sympathy, but has a real basis in a widely distributed publication. Also, why is there no mention of the Catholic penal-codes enforced upon Ireland for several centuries which included such things as prohibiting a Catholic from owning a horse worth more than 5 pounds or inheriting the property of his father? Surely the lable "anti-Catholic" would not be out of line for that. Contrafool 13:35, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Contrafool. I removed much (but not all) regarding Jack Chick because I felt the previous level of detail overstated his importance. One sentence about him and his ideas remains under 3.3 Conspiracy Theories, where I also put mention of the Da Vinci Code.

If you disagree with my treatment of this, please re-add whatever you think appropriate. However I would rather see this article fleshed out with stronger details such as the one you mention -- Catholic penal codes in Ireland would be a terrific addition to the History section.

The previous versions of this article suffered from poor selection, balance, and organization of detail. I took a big whack at it and erred on the side of boldness, trusting that others (like you) would flesh it out again, but hopefully more thoughtfully and with more attention to NPOV than before. Many socially and historically significant instances of anti-Catholicism go unmentioned here, and I'd like to see this article evolve to be more informative while maintaining a neutral tone and a coherent structure.

On that note, I am uninterested in classifying any criticism as legitimate or not. I think this article should simply describe anti-Catholicism, give it socio-historical context, and detail significant historical and contemporary examples. We should not attempt a comprehensive list of ways Catholicism has ever been criticized. Nor should we use this as a soapbox to discuss Catholic doctrine. We should be careful to select and balance details according to their significance to history or society, NOT according to what we feel is legitimate/outrageous or incendiary.

Finally, I think the convention on talk pages is to add new entries to the bottom (unless you are responding to another's comment) so that the page reads chronologically. This helps new contributors make sense of the running dialogue. It's for this clarity that I moved your comment, also taking the liberty of giving it a new heading. --quo 03:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Need a section on anti-clericalism, especially in Europe

Maybe it's just the Anglo-American bias of the authors/editors of this article but I noticed that there is nothing in this article about "anti-clericalism" which was a huge sentiment in Europe in reaction to the heavy-handed control that the Catholic Church imposed on Catholic Europe through the clerical hierarchy (archbishops, bishops and priests).

Anti-clericalism is a recurring theme in European politics, culture and literature. Also in Latin America.

I'm not arguing for or against "anti-clericalism". I'm just saying omitting mention of it is a major flaw in this article.

In fact, it's telling that there is almost nothing about anti-Catholicism in Europe. This is another huge hole in the article.

Richard 06:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

American Catholics were Pro-Franco?

American Catholics being pro-Franco is a big claim, please list your sources.

strong majorities favored Franco as did nearly all bishops. historian John Diggins said "'at first glance it does appear that the American clergy had indeed composed a political choir in behalf of Fascism.' Diggins portrayed a large number of Catholic clergy led by figures like Cardinal William O'Connell of Boston and Father Charles E. Coughlin who found occasion to praise Mussolini. He outlined the views of the major Catholic periodicals and discovered that only the Paulist-sponsored Catholic World took exception to fascism with any consistency. ....Ryan's critique of both the doctrine and practice of Italian fascism set him apart from the vast majority of Catholic thinkers and spokesmen. Most Catholics who addressed the matter ignored questions of principle and simply measured fascism in the light of the interests of the Vatican and the Italian church and reacted favorably towards it." Wilson D. Miscamble, "The Limits of American Catholic Antifascism: The Case of John A. Ryan" Church History. Volume: 59. Issue: 4. 1990. Page 523+. also: Diggins, Mussolini and Fascism, pp. 182-190. and Diggins , "American Catholics and Italian Fascism," Journal of Contemporary History 2 (1967 ): 51-68 Rjensen 22:55, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

More often I think you saw hostility to the Republican side which was seen as Soviet-backed and hostile to the faith. This view is not entirely unjustified although Basque Catholics faced abuse by Franco. Anyway yhe Vatican had stated previously that the Republic was hostile to the Church, but never said anything against Franco as far as I know. This is unlike Mussolini or Hitler both of whom were criticized in encyclicals by Popes.I think some American Catholics supported Franco as the lesser evil or chose no side. I think it is fair to say the majority then did not side against Franco anyway, but I'm not sure if it's accurate or not to say the majority supported him. America was isolationist in the 30s to a large degree so my guess would be that most American Catholics didn't have strong opinions on Franco one way or the other.(I am a church-attending conservative Catholic BTW. Also "you did not see me, I am not here)--T. Anthony 08:00, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is the data from Gallup poll Dec 16 '38) Which side do you sympathize with in the Spanish civil war—the Loyalists or Franco?

National total 76% for Loyalists 24% for Franco Catholics 42% for Loyalists 58% for Franco Protestants 83 for Loyalists 17 for Franco source: Cantril Public Opinion, 1935-1946. Page 808. Rjensen 08:53, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

There you go, good job. It looks like they weren't given the choice to say "neither" so I'm still curious what that'd be. It's a strong majority, but 42% is a sizeable minority too.--T. Anthony 12:00, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Reorganization and expansion of this article

I have been unhappy with the organization of this article for some time because it takes primarily a geographical approach which leads to a fragemented narrative. I think it would be better to start with a conceptual explanation of what anti-Catholicism is.

IMO, anti-Catholicism has three major manifestations: opposition to doctrine, opposition to leadership + hierarchy, and rabid irrational bigotry (things like blood libel about the Mass).

This aticle should discuss each of these separately. I am willing to make an initial effort on the first two manifestations: opposition to doctrine and opposition to leadership. I am struggling with an appropriate section title for "rabid irrational bigotry".

The best title that I can think of is "Anti-Catholic bigotry" but I'm worried that it might be considered POV because labeling an opinion as "bigoted" is itself POV. If anyone can suggest a better title, I'm open to discussing it.

A historical approach could also work but it needs to start much earlier not with anti-Catholicism in England. A brief discussion of the reasons behind the Reformation would really help ground a lot of the motivations for anti-Catholicism.

This article, as currently written, assumes too much knowledge about the history of the Catholic Church, particularly the Reformation. It's too confusing to just dive into historical details by country without providing context.

--Richard 14:57, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

rewrite is a good idea but don't call people "bigots" when they fight over theology--too much blood has already been shed over transubstantation and consubstantiation. Please never use the word "rabid" -- it suggests a mad dog that should be killed immediately. "irrational" does not seem useful when talking about religion. (Is it irrational to believe in saints? in the Trinity? in limbo?) thanks. :) Rjensen 15:03, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

By "rabid irrational bigotry", I mean the sort of stuff that is along the lines of anti-Semitism (see Talk:Roman Catholic Church for a more detailed discussion). The best example of what I mean is "blood libel" about the Mass. I don't see that as being legitimate difference of belief about doctrine or church governance. I see that as "rabid, irrational bigotry". Now, I would never use those words in the text of a Wikipedia article but, here in the Talk Page, why not? Let's call a spade a spade.

P.S. I agree that it might be difficult to figure out where to draw the line on the definition of bigotry. Is the assertion of Bob Jones Sr. in that category? How about Jack Chick?

--Richard 00:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Do we feel the need to make this differentiation on other religious/anti-religion biases? Is Anti-Judaism divided in such a way? Plus I think it ends up being misleading. Only really sensitive people think that those who disagree with Papal Infallibility or the celibate priesthood are anti-Catholic for doing so. It's only anti-Catholic if they blather on about how those two things make the Catholic Church a sexually oppressive Fascist force for reactionary zealots or something.--T. Anthony 07:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, here's the problem. The folks over at Roman Catholic Church don't want much discussion of criticism of the church in their article. Actually, after I researched other articles on Wikipedia, I found that there is more criticism of the Catholic Church in the Roman Catholic Church article than there is in most other articles about religion or ideology (see my comments about this on Talk:Roman Catholic Church).

So, I figured I'd put some of that stuff here. Not because I have a POV ax to grind about the Catholic church but because I feel that is important to document this stuff somewhere (maybe in Protestantism?).

I figured I'd put it here but there seems to be a sentiment that this article should be for strong bigotry along the lines of anti-Semitism.

I should comment that there are two different articles anti-Judaism and anti-Semitism and another related one anti-Zionism. There's only this one article anti-Catholicism and a related article anti-clericalism. I can't figure out where to put these discussions about papal supremacy and papal infallibility.

Your thoughts and suggestions are solicited.

--Richard 10:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I see. The only confusion I was having is that it might end up either leading to justifying hatred of Catholics or going the total opposite direction by making any criticism of Catholicism to be anti-Catholicism and I don't think that's true either. By definition I think anyone who is not Catholic disagrees with Catholicism on some issue. I disagree with Methodists on some things, but I think it'd be very weird to think of myself as anti-Methodist. I'm not pro-Methodist either. I guess mostly I just don't care to be honest. Anyway I'll get back to you because I don't have much constructive to say at this hour.--T. Anthony 11:17, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The fact that some Christians believe Catholic teaching is unbiblical can be sourced

Hi there. Earlier, I read the introductory paragraph to this article and I was very shocked at the amount of bias used by the author who discussed the various Catholic doctrines and described Catholic teachings as "un-Biblical." While that may be your personal opinion, I didn't think it was suited for an objective page like this is supposed to be. [Keegan] 07:40 EST 10 May 2006

It's true that the statements are unsourced but that doesn't mean they can't be sourced. Much of Wikipedia is unsourced until someone challenges it. It just takes more effort to source something than to put something in that you know to be true.

In this case, what's true is that some people believe that Catholic teaching is unbiblical. The text is not asserting that Catholic teaching is unbiblical just that some people believe it to be.

Those opinions aren't mine although I see that there's an element of truth in them. The text is saying some people believe that. And there are definitely people who believe it. Bob Jones Sr. (of Bob Jones University in South Carolina) is one of them.

I'm sorry if it offends your sensibilities to find out that many Christians believe that Catholics are not Christian. That's not my fault. It was a big shock to me when the first person said it to me. I dismissed them as a fringe cult. Since then, I've learned that it is a bit of an extreme view to say that Catholics aren't Christians but it is a common view to say that some Catholic teachings are not rooted in the Bible.

Catholics themselves will say that some teachings are based on tradition. Go read the Roman Catholic Church article to understand this.

--Richard 15:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

please source the claims. Note that Bob Jones Sr died decades ago. Rjensen 15:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, Rjensen. I have encounted (much to my chagrin) Christians who believe that Catholics aren't Christians. Sourcing such people would be a great addition to the article, but i dont know if its most suited in the intro.

Furhtermore, while saying why some other Christian sects disagree with Catholic doctrine is legitimate the article as it was didn't really do that. It was more along the lines of "Some Christians object to the Catholic Church because its teachings are unibiblical." It was not objective and did not express the point that "Some Christians object to the Catholic Church because they believe its teachings to be unbiblical." I think the second one is a little more objective. Furthermore, the casual use of the term Marianism is improper and a subtle jab at the true Catholic view. Thirdly, the Catholic view of salvation had been mis-stated as "works alone," a common misonception.

So, if part of the article is to explain doctrinl disputes, it should A) not be located at the top of the article, and most importantly B) be accurate and objective.

[Keegan] 10 May 2006 12:30pm EST

It doesn't matter that Bob Jones Sr. died years ago. If he said it, it's a source. Martin Luther also died many years ago as did many people who are cited in Wikipedia.

I have moved the text out of the intro and into the "Opposition to Catholic doctrine" section and added the Catholic rebuttal about "tradition". Yes, more sourcing is always helpful but the urgency of sourcing is only high if there are people who dispute the factual basis of the text. There is no dispute that some Christians feel this way. There may be dispute whether they are right or not but that is a theological dispute not a factual dispute.

Rjensen, one of your recent edits adding derogatory terms is highly POV and against Wikipedia policy WP:NPOV. Please cease and desist. There are far more mature and sophisticated ways to attack a POV that you disagree with. Please use them.

--Richard 19:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Fact is Bob Jones died in 1968 (at age 85), and his anti-RC attacks came in 1920s. There do not seem to be any citations in last 40 years, suggesting that this line of attack has petered out. When editors are challenged it is their responsibility to prove they have been relying on a reliable source, which is not the case here. And please leave the tradition business out of it. Rjensen 19:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

http://www.bible.ca/catholic-organization.htm

http://www.conservativeonline.org/journals/04_12_journal/2000v4n12_id05.htm (Tyndale Theological University)

http://www.scionofzion.com/rc.htm

http://www.chick.com/bc/2002/confession.asp (Our dear friend Jack Chick)

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-r005i.html

http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/4_3/pages/mohler.html (President of Southern Baptist convention on Larry King Live)

Nuff said? Sheesh.

--Richard 21:10, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, rjensen, for providing a "proof by example" of why an encyclopedic article about anti-Catholicism can serve a pedagogical purpose in educating fervent "knee-jerk loyal" Catholics who are blissfully unaware of the fact that a significant number of non-Catholic Christians consider Catholic teaching to be unbiblical to the point of making the Catholic Church a non-Christian church.

For extra credit, you might ponder these question:

1. Are Mormons Christians? Why or why not?
2. Are Jehovah's Witnesses Christians? Why or why not?

--Richard 21:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

yes: now source every sentence--and not with some cartoonist or some offbeat newspaper column. How about official statements by the Southern Baptist (or other) church, please, or a scholarly study that has been well received by numbers of people. Not some informal comments made offhand to a reporter. Key words are "many" "cult" nonbiblical" and "nonchristian." Rjensen 21:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm a Catholic born in Arkansas. Because of that I'm well aware that there are Protestants who still consider Catholics to be not Christian, unbiblical, etc. I think though that the article should be clear that this is their opinion, not fact. Anyway if you want sources on this I know of some, but they generally try to balance it.

The LCMS does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that any individual Pope as a person, is to be identified with the Antichrist...To the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent which expressly anathematizes, for instance, the doctrine "that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified," the judgment of the Lutheran confessional writings that the papacy is the Antichrist holds.[3]

The Roman Catholic system of church governance, based on extra-biblical teachings such as papal primacy, resulted in severe abuses of religious freedom as the church was allied with the state...If, in expounding on what the Bible teaches, Seventh-day Adventists fail to express love to those addressed, we do not exhibit authentic Christianity. Adventists seek to be fair in dealing with others. Thus, while we remain aware of the historical record and continue to hold our views regarding end-time events, we recognize some positive changes in recent Catholicism, and stress the conviction that many Roman Catholics are brothers and sisters in Christ.Seventh-Day Adventist Church

Not sure that's what's wanted, but individual ministers in several religions do still reject Catholics as Christians.

However for those who said that the criticism needed a page separate from the page on the Roman Catholic Church so why not place it here I have some objections. I think the following articles do deal with criticism of Catholicism: Criticism of the Catholic Church, Roman Catholic sex abuse cases, Cases of child sexual abuse in the Roman Catholic Church, Class action suit against the Vatican Bank and others, Involvement of Croatian Catholic clergy with the Ustaša regime, Clerical fascism, Hitler's Pope, and likely others.--T. Anthony 02:46, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Sigh... Why didn't somebody mention Criticism of the Catholic Church before? That does seem like a logical place to put the stuff that I've been inserting here. Is there anybody who disagrees with moving the stuff that is more related to church governance (papal primacy) and church doctrine (papal infallibility, sola Scriptura, sola fides, etc.) to that article?

--Richard 04:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I just found out about it a few hours ago. I just assumed it existed before that, but I really didn't know for certain. Wikipedia is full of criticisms of various religions. I think there was a Criticism of Islam article and there's probably others. Catholicism is the largest single Christian denomination and also one of the oldest. Hence it gets more articles than most.--T. Anthony 09:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I did some editing but this article gain a lot of cruft from the last set of edits. Dominick ^(TALK) 00:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeh, it's not the way that I would have liked to have written it but User:rjensen kept deleting text without justification other than insisting on an unreasonable standard of sourcing. He's stopped for now but I had to really lay it on thick to get to a point where he could see that it was not just some fringe lunatics who maintained that the Catholic Church is not Christian.

This is the first real edit war that I have engaged in and I hope that I have conducted myself honorably. It took a lot of self-restraint not to dish out as good as I was getting.

I am all for making it clear that these are opinions not facts. However, I do think it is important to document the existence of those opinions.

--Richard 04:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Neat. I'd like to add you don't have to even indicate they're false either. I know of Protestants who I consider mostly friendly, but they believe the Catholic Church is not biblically justified on many points. To a degree I don't even think the Catholic Church is biblically justified in the way that they mean as I don't want it to be Sola Scriptura. Anyway saying that the Catholic Church is biblically justified could also be taking sides and I could see the difficulty there too. Keeping things NPOV can get maddening at times. I think that's part of why I left for almost two months.--T. Anthony 09:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Question for all: T. Anthony provided some additional evidence to back up the assertion that some non-Catholics consider the Catholic Church to be non-Christian. I am very appreciative of his providing citations to back up the text.

However, is it worth putting that stuff in the text as it stands now? As dominick said, there's lots of cruft in the text already. I tried to clean it up but, to satisfy rjensen, I put far more in the way of evidence than I would have if everybody had just said "Uh huh, we all know that there are people who have those opinions". We could just clobber the naysayers by providing boatloads of proof that people really do say this stuff. rjensen insisted on having every sentence sourced. I think that's an unreasonable standard. Few articles in Wikipedia are held to that standard.

At this point, I'm loath to add any more evidence because I think it would make the article less readable. I think the text that was there last night is preferable to the one that is there now. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Richardshusr (talk • contribs) .

Cleanup needed

I added the cleanup tag because even a quick skimming of the article showed so much sloppiness, I found it genuinely distracting. Some particular issues:

• Spelling and punctuation errors.
• Citations could be formatted much better.
• Some section headings have only one or two sentences. These should probably be either expanded to at least a short paragraph, or the subheading should be removed so the stub is merged with its parent section.

Those are the just the things that jumped out at me the most. Any article like this is bound to have some potential POV problems too; I hope everyone can also try write clearly as you figure out what the content should be. Wesley 12:29, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

New working definition

Thank you, Wesley, for your comments. Indeed, this article needs a lot of reworking. To start, I have re-written the working definition of anti-Catholicism in the first paragraph. I have employed the distinctions which Scott Hahn makes about the matter. Without using such an inflammatory term in the article itself, anti-Catholicism is a form of bigotry, that is an irrational negative pre-disposition or even hatred. This takes the matter out of the realm of mere disagreement. With such a definition, we may make more headway in cleaning up this article. I welcome all comments as a concensus on this definition will affect future editing decisions. --Vaquero100 14:12, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Theological Disagreements

I have been giving this some thought. It seems to me that even strong theological disagreement may be made in an atmosphere of charity and mutual respect. Failure to recognise this fact is how Christians in general and Catholics in particular are accused of being anit-gay, when mere disagreement does not imply hatred or animosity. This is a very important distinction which is essential to maintaining civility in a pluralistic society.

Okay, off the soapbox. I would like to suggest that theologically distinct positions be mentioned on the Roman Catholic Church page with a link to the page of the group or church or movement which holds such disagreement. For instance, sola scriptura should be discussed at length on a reformation page. The RCC article should make reference to such a topic and refer to reader who wants more information. The same should hold for theological disagreements over the papacy, for instance, provided they are rational responses to the papacy. However, claims that the pope controls the world's media, has plans to take over the world or was the driving force behind Hitler, for example, really does belong here. Again, I would welcome any and all comments. --Vaquero100 14:12, 11 May 2006 (UTC)