Talk:Michael Jackson

195.93.21.66 has put defamatory remarks on this page. This is vandalism. Please delete such remarks by him or anyone else immediately, and, if ongoing, report to WP:AIV. Tyrenius 07:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

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Some thoughts from a fan

Okay, I'm completely new to Wiki so go easy on me. First off, interesting debate here and much more civilised than any MJ message boards! But I do think there's a lot of insider MJ missing from this encyclopedia write-up. I wish more of the message board people would come here and help out. Here are a few notes for now:

This write-up is extremely unbalanced, not in terms of fact/opinion but in the weight that's given to the last 5 or 6 six years versus his earlier career. Obviously, writers have more fresh facts/data for this time period, but it's unfair to lump Thriller into a 10-year period and then give a special section to a 2-year period involving the Bashir video.

Here's how I'd divide this write-up to make it more encyclopedic. I'll give categories here with a few notes on things that might be changed/added:

"Early life and career: 1966 – 1981" Make end of title 1981 not 1980. You could even divide into "Early life and the Jackson 5: 1966 - 1975" and "The Jacksons and Going Solo: 1976 - 1981." Section needs some work. Where are all the details about the Jackson 5 and Jacksons? It's strange that we get a petty exchange between MJ and Gloria Allred (under "Berlin and Bashir"), but no real details or quotes here. Relationship between MJ and Berry Gordy (his second Dad), fact that MJ recorded so much and "missed out on his childhood" (common theme in later interviews), alleged abuse from father, blossoming dance talent, appearance in "Free to Be You And Me" video, robot dance move, Ed Sullivan appearance (!), more hits from Jacksons including "Shake Your Body (Down To The Ground)", emergence of MJ as songwriter on songs such as "Blues Away" (first solo writing credit, off The Jacksons) and "Heartbreak Hotel" (off Triumph) and "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough" and "Working Day and Night" (on Off the Wall). There's a lot to add here.

"The Thriller Era: 1982 - 1985" I'd make this a separate section. This is the era that defined his career and changed pop music! It's missing a lot of details; again, why do we get so many details from Bashir video and zero quotes from this era?! Motown 25 performance at the very least needs some beefing up. This was considered a revolution when it aired. Maybe add anecdote about Fred Astaire calling up MJ the next day and telling him he was a "hell of a mover." Maybe some quotes from MJ about the album, what he wanted to do with it? Maybe notes on impact of Thriller video (on other artists, commonly mimicked choreography, etc.), fact that he brought Emmanuelle Lewis and Brooke Shields to the Grammy Awards, fact that he started jogging with the military and wearing some crazy military garb. So much to add, so little of it here!

"More Success and Controversy: 1986 - 1992" This would be a new section, possibly with a different title. Maybe "Bad and Dangerous: 1986-1992"? Seems cumbersome to list the album titles, but that's really the best way to chart his career. This section needs a mention of the fact that the National Inquirer claims MJ *gave them* the pictures of the hyperbaric chamber and told them to print it with the word "Weird" in the headline, meaning MJ wanted some "weird" tabloid coverage and toyed with the tabloids for a bit, though it obviously got out of hand. I've seen this mentioned in several biographies and (I think) the show 60 minutes. No mention of film Moonwalker?! Also mention fact that Oprah interview was a major television event, over 50 million viewers, I believe. Dangerous album gets majorly shortchanged here. And "which was accompanied by a controversial music video featuring scenes of a sexual nature, violence and racism" is weak; the controversial part was the dance sequence at the *end* of the video, and there was no "racism" just some KKK graffiti on a window that he angrily smashes (though I don't believe that was in original version). Should also mention morphing technology used in video, which was groundbreaking at the time.

"First Allegations and Aftermath: 1993 - 2001" If later sections are going to be really specific, this needs to be a separate section. Really, the allegations defined this era; all his music is a reaction to it, both HIStory and Blood on the Dancefloor. Lots of angry, weird music. And what about all the crazy promotion for the HIStory album?! He floated a statue of himself down the Thames, for crying out loud, and the promo video is totally over the top propaganda (in a fabulous way, IMO). Also, re: "Jew me, sue me" lyrics, I don't think this is encyclopedic because it gives a one-sided version. MJ has said "I was using myself as the victim" and identifying with the persecution of Jews or something to that effect; in other words, he's saying "Jew me" (or, persecute me the way the Jews were persecuted), and then he says "sue me" because...it rhymes. It's breathtakingly naive, but this is what he claims. Worth noting. For Invincible, you might note the efforts to bring MJ back to his earlier Off the Wall sound on a few songs like "Butterflies." It's also noteworthy that he *finally* started singing songs about relationships again and stopped singing about 1993 allegations. This section is missing Madison Square Garden 30th Anniversary shows, on 9/7 and 9/10/01 (a wealth of freakshow details, also noteworthy for pairing him with Liza and producer David Gest, and MJ was later Best Man at their crazy wedding). Might also note that MJ fled NYC after 9/11, and Corey Feldman claims he didn't offer him a ride in his limo, causing a rift in their friendship (petty detail?).

Okay, I think rest of the sections can keep their titles, but the trial section needs beefing up! So many details worth adding there, including fact that E! re-enacted the trial scenes daily, tabloid coverage, snazzy Mr. Blackwell-approved outfits daily, pajama mishap, reports of physical/mental deterioation, anticipation of the verdict; really, in my mind, the frenzy over the trial is eerily almost as fervid as frenzy during Thriller era, like a counterbalance to his career. Not an encyclopedic theory, but worth noting for context.

That's all for now. Sorry to take up so much space. Feel free to comment, edit, delete, whichever. I'll be back to make some comments to the main text if people like my ideas. --Steverino 05:20, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you Steverino, this article needs beefing up. Aeneiden-Rex 07:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I think u should change the article the way u've written here, it's good.Aeneiden-Rex 14:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely. In all truthfulness, Jackson's career and height of popularity was in the earlier years and those sections should be far larger than the sections regarding recent controversies. There needs to be some work done. But the problem is if Jackson fans make any changes trying to ballance the early years non-Jackson fans tend to call it POV. If the controversies are made larger the Jackson fans get upset and then wars start and nothing gets done. I feel that fact is more important than rumours and possibilities. I'm not saying the controversies do not belong - but this article needs more about Jackson's career not his private/social life - he is afterall an entertainer. :: ehmjay 18:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I actually disagree a bit and think that it's acceptable to list the controversies in detail. It's part of his legacy, whether fans like it or not. I believe more than 50 million people watched the announcement of the trial verdict, which is about the number of people who have bought the Thriller album (and same number who watched Oprah interview!). So I think the career and the controversy should balance each other out similarly in this article. The only thing I have a problem with is the fact that huge chunks of career are done in a few paragraphs whereas the last few years are picked apart year by year. I'll go into the article and edit a bit if I have some time this weekend. 12.149.50.2 22:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh I totally agree that the controversies are nescicary to the article, however as you said, I do not think that they should be the largest section or that is to say they should be balanced out. They are an important part of Jackson's life however so is the music. :: ehmjay 03:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The controversies should be listed, but not too long. It gets boring and most of it is pretty much heresay anyway. Snowbound 12:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The controversies have by far surpassed and ended his music career, which is why he's bankrupt and living in exile.

I think what ehmjay says is right about people will claim POV is being used. However, personally I think Jackson had a great music career, and this should be described in great detail, but the controversies have indeed changed the way we view this man. I think his controversies have sadly overshadowed and blighted a great career.Littlepaulscholes 23:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Conduct on this page: this is a warning

I would like to remind all contributors to this article and this page to please maintain a good standard of civility, even if you disagree strongly with another editor.

Furthermore, this page is not a place to express personal opinions, especially derogatory ones and even more so as this is a biography of a living person, where the bias is towards restraint. Some of the edits I have seen in the edit history are completely unacceptable, defamatory accusations, and must not recur.

This page is for discussion about material that can be used to improve the article. To that end, statements should be made with a view to following NPOV and be verifiable. These are non-negotiable policies, and persistent violation of them will be regarded as disruptive behaviour.

Feel free to contact me on my talk page if you wish, and if there is anything you want to bring to my attention, please provide diffs. (ask if you're unsure about how to do so).

Thank you and I urge you to strive for a good level of co-operation with fellow editors to increase the standard of this important article, which obviously generates a lot of passion.

Tyrenius 03:16, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Verification: this is a warning

It is particularly important when there is contention that all material is meticulously referenced. Please study the policy VERIFY on this and do not put forward anything that does not follow it. Likewise personal opinions should be kept out of the argument. Stick to a NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW. The third non-negotiable policy is NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH.

Continued violation of these policies can lead to being blocked.

Tyrenius 13:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

New additions in the intro

I have added some more information to highlight the stature and importance of Michael Jackson, something that I think this article has done a relatively poor job at. A user informed me that previous consensus decided not to use nicknames, but I just want to point out that these are not nicknames. A nickname would be something like "Wacko Jacko," not the "best-selling artist of all time," which is more like a descriptive term. Hope that clarifies the issue.UberCryxic 22:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Whether you call them "labels" or "nicknames" or descriptors or whatever is irrelevant. After many months debating and arguing, the consensus reached on this talk page was strongly against including this information in the introduction. I have removed it. Please do not re-insert it. There is no consensus for your edits and the last person who carried on about this was blocked for four weeks. Thanks, Sarah Ewart (Talk) 22:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Although terms such as "Wacko Jacko" some of you may consider to be damaging to Mr.Jackson, can one help but realize it is true? How can one support a man who could committ such horrible acts. He may have been found not guilty, but what jury member or judge could sent the "King of Pop" to jail. The evidence of the sexual molestation charges was overwhelming, but greatly ignored by the court. Try and convince yourself all you want that our beloved Michael is a harmless man, because we all know he isn't. I found it appaling that people stood outside the court room supporting Michael. This is children we are talking about, these children's lives have been scarred for life, and yet we have these insane fans who think he is a civil man. Civil is not a term to be used with Michael. To be accurate with the behaviors of the "King of Pop" I'd use a name such as Derranged Pervert, which honestly describes Mr.Jackson. Why would one spend millions upon millions of dollars on a place that would attract children to his home. Obviously, Michael has fooled you all, and I am sorry to the families he has hurt that they have to endure these fans saying Michael is innocent. Put you, or your child in that place, and then tell me that you still support that monster of a man.

Not to start a war here or anything, but for one to see that "the evidence of child molestation was overwhelming" is quite ridiculous. The trial was not televised, and the evidence not shown to the public. How one could say it was overwhelming is beyond me. Oh and don't forget to sign your posts. :: ehmjay 22:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

King of Pop

I believe that there should be a reference in the starting sentence of the article to Jackson's fan name "The King of Pop". I THINK that this has been discussed before, but that was a LONG time ago and I wasn't involved in that. Below I will provide evidence as to why I believe a reference should be added.

1) Other articles with common media/fan-dubbed names:

• Elvis Presley has an extensive 17 words explaining various naming conventions
• Steve McQueen's nickname 'The King of Cool' is given

2) When you type "King of Pop" into Google, the first FIFTEEN hits (the entire first page and half the second) solely relate to Michael Jackson, proving that this nickname is in no way 'unused' or 'rare', but is in fact very much alive and well.

3) In front of THOUSANDS of fans in Tokyo, Michael Jackson is not only named the 'King of Pop', but also the 'King of Pop, Rock and Soul'. Here's the link [1]

4) On CNN.com, when "The King of Pop" is typed into search under a Cnn.com search, there are more than 50 pages related to Michael Jackson directly. The link is here, [2], and it proves that "The King of Pop" is a label still used by the INTERNATIONAL MEDIA when discussing Jackson, and it is used quite frequently. This is no minority fan name. This is a name that is wide spread.

5) In terms of foreign language wikipedias, the following have the nickname 'The King of Pop' in the introduction (I'll put the links here so that you all don't accuse me of lying):

• Spanish Wikipedia [3]
• French Wikipedia [4]
• German Wikipedia [5]
• Swedish Wikipedia [6]

The 2nd largest language by distribution in the world, French, gives the nickname. German, also a widespread language, gives the nickname. Spanish, still widely spoken in Mediterranean areas as well as foreign communities, gives the nickname. And Swedish Wikipedia, a language abundant in the Nordic countries and Scandinavia, gives the nickname. Obviously it is widespread. If anyone thinks it is not, look at the proof (use Bable Fish Translation if unsure of the languages).

I will be adding more evidence as time passes, as I'm sure many here will be quick to crucify my opinions. --Paaerduag 10:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I swear this page is going back to like it was back in november 2004.--I'll bring the food 20:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Can people just stop digging their noses in the past and actually bother to read the evidence, not just blatantly accuse me of stirring up trouble? Read the evidence at LEAST, for God's sake. It is really quite clever what some people here are doing; they are refusing to even COMMENT on this post, therefore making me unable to change ANYTHING, and therefore keeping the nick name out of the title. Clever, but unless you can tell me why we shouldn't have the title in here WITH ALL THE EVIDENCE I HAVE PROVIDED, I don't see why I shouldn't just put it in. --Paaerduag 02:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you reach consensus first before overriding an already agreed consensus. As it already stands it was decided to remove BOTH well used nicknames, ie. King of Pop and Wacko Jacko. If you want to re-add one, you will have to be prepared to add the other as AGREED by consensus of all involved parties in this artcle. I have removed KOP until such time a FRESH consensus is agreed, this is per Wikipedia policy. -- Funky Monkey  (talk)  08:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Ditto Funky Monkey. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 01:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Funky Monkey, I agree we should wait until there is a concensus before we add it into the article, but Paaerduag does make some good points. Perhaps it's time we discuss it again? After all, that is the point of this discussion section. :: ehmjay 10:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Both nicknames by which he has been known are fully covered in the article. Frankly, putting KoP in the lead 'graph only serves, it seems to me, to make the days in which it was apt seem very long ago indeed. Robertissimo 10:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

It is absolutely fine to discuss this issue, but it is absolutely not fine for Paaerduag to try to independently overrule the consensus and insert words which have been very contentious and were removed after an agreement was reached during a very, very long debate. Paaerduag needs to negotiate a new consensus if he wants to put the nicknames back in, instead of acting on his own and ignoring the existing one. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 11:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree Sarah. I hadn't realized he had gone and made any changes - which I agree was not a good idea to do before we had discussed it. Anyways - I agree that it is a change worth looking into - but not entirely needed. Either way, I'd love to discuss it (in a calm and reasonable manner).:: ehmjay 18:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, let me clear something up. I knew full well that what I was doing was wrong, and NOW I regret it in part. This is because people were simply ignoring my comments, and that is how they were effectively blocking my opinions (shared by others) out. This really frustrated me, and I apologize for my outburst. I hope that you don't hold that against me, because it was swiftly and justly reverted. Anyway, the consensus that was reached was that wacko jacko AND KoP would either both be kept or both gone. I was not aware of that until now, as I explained. Let me just say, if people are criticizing me for reopening this discussion, how can a 'consensus' ever be reached!? anyway, it is in my opinion that my next course of action is to justify why KING OF POP SHOULD STAY WHILE WACKO JACKO SHOULD NOT. I will gather evidence immediately, and add it shortly. --Paaerduag 12:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's my evidence (more will be added):

1) Not a SINGLE other-language wikipedia even MENTIONS the derogatory name Wacko Jacko, so why should it be in the introductory sentence. On the other hand, KoP is mentioned in the intro several times (read above evidence)

2) Wacko Jacko was NOT coined by the people; it was a product of media imagination, which in turn was adopted by Jackson-haters. My point, if you are wondering, is that if nicknames are truly popular shouldn't they be coined by PEOPLE? People who's jobs don't involve spinning stories, but who are ordinary and adopt a popular name. That is the case with King of Pop. It was popular, and like Elvis' 'King of Rock', was not the invention of the media. You may think this is stupid (in fact, i'm sure many here already loathe me), but I'm trying to make a point.

• Wacko Jacko = Media invention.
• King of Pop = Name given by the people, not influenced by the media and its spinning webs.

--Paaerduag 12:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

1. We aren't governed or even guided by what other wikis do.
2. Please prove that "the people" coined the term "King of Pop" and not "Wacko Jacko". And please explain the relevance of the origin of the terms. I don't think the origin of words determines their notability. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 12:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

One could have this argument indefinitely, and indeed I think a very good case could be made for exactly the reverse of Paaerduag's: "king of pop" is rather transparently a publicists' creation, one that the subject and his wranglers clung to long after it had become a faintly embarrassing reminder of better times (the photo of the star in his glory that leads off this article, after all, is more than 22 years old; older, in fact, than many of today's hitmakers). "Wacko Jacko," on the contrary, having gained currency in gossip columns and other popular media, would have faded away quickly if it had offended a substantial portion of their audience, and so might be considered as the actual "people's choice." Robertissimo 12:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

If one traces the origins of "King Of Pop", I beleive it was first used by Elizibeth Taylor when she introduced Michael Jackson at either an awards show or a performance. Now it's no secret that Taylor and Jackson are friends - however that does not mean it was coined by a publicist, nor does is mean it was coined by Taylor herself. Needles to say "Wacko Jacko" is still used, however usually by the mainstream media. I think the most compelling argument for using "King of Pop" is to look at a professional article from a reputable encyclopedia: Encyclopedia Brittanica. Here it mentions "King of Pop" and does not mention Wacko Jacko - while this is not in the introduction of the article it does give clout to the legitimacy of this name. Now, as for the image being shown on the page - that argument is moot. The reason that image is used it that it is Public Domain and the Wiki Rules state that if a public domain image exists, it must be used. There was a period where a photgraph of Jackson accepting his recent award in Japan was used. Personally I don't really care if the "King of Pop" is mentioned in the first paragraph since it is covered in the body of the article. I wouldn't mind seeing it there, however I also don't mind if it's not. I do however think that Wacko Jacko has no place in the opening paragraph whether KoP is there or not. That's just my opinion however. :: ehmjay 23:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

As I can't edit below I will confirm that in no possible was has Michael Jackson sold over 60- million copies of thriller. The Guinnes book of records says 48 million, while the most says 52 million. As Michael's biggest fan you must really want it to be true, but it's rubbish, sorry.

Worldwide sales of Thriller

I would like to know if this source confirming that Thriller has sold approximately 60 million copies is appropriate for the article. It is a news article from BBC here is the link.[7]--Stardust6000 02:41, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd say yes, to me BBC seems like a pretty credible source. However I'm sure others will argue No, and will want to continue to use the out of date, inaccurate Guinness number (let me remind everyone that Guinness is not always correct, seeing as they have the run-time of the Thriller video incorrect, and Jackson made 2 other videos that were longer than Thriller, yet it's still credited as the "Longest Music Video") :: ehmjay 15:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The BBC is fine to use as a source. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 22:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you both so much for your replies, I'll add this to the article now. Take care for now.--Stardust6000 00:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

This is getting silly, Thriller according to most sources I've read are somewhere around 50 million, these sources include actual recorded figures of album sales. BBC is hardly a reliable source for gathering record sales data, it is just a rough estimate. Lets stop exaggerating, Thriller sold so many it hardly seems worth exaggerating it more. 81.156.67.125 00:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well someone has already confirmed that BBC is a fine source. And most sources people use are the Guiness source - most people who reference are using it as their reference (be it any other articles). The fact is the guiness number is out of date and wrong. Stick with the BBC source. :: ehmjay 02:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The BBC are not only extremely reliable but their figure is also the most up-to-date.--Ashadeofgrey (Talk) 19:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

81.156.67.125: under our guidelines, the BBC is considered a reliable source and we may use it as a reference for verifiying information. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 14:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm only stating there are better sources which pay closer attention to the actual figures. BBC is just an estimate, it is in no way accurate. I suppose whatever I say it will stay there because people will want it to seem Thriller sold as many as possible. Most sites Ive read put the figure at around 50 million, I hardly think the album has sold another 10 million in the time before BBC wrote the article. Ehmjay, I have a great respect for the work you have done on this article as it has not been easy I imagine with all the vandalism but I feel your now including unaccurate information which is a shame.81.152.225.36 18:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

There is one link (BBC) that mentions 60m (excluding the MJ fansite), and all others, like Rock n Roll Hall of Fame, World Music Awards, specify 50m+. BBC is a credible source most of the time, but also can be a non-credible source also. They recently reported Boney M selling 800 million albums. What needs to happen is weight has to be given to articles on believability. As WMA is 2006, and MJ is attending, I would consider this far more reliable.

PICTURE!!!

This picture does not represent Michael Jackson in a good way. Why isn't there a more recent picture of him? This was in the 80's.. We are now in 2006, coming into 07 soon! Can you not change it? I think it is disrepectful..— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.143.135 (talk)

We have to use the one thats up because of the Wikirules regarding Public Domain photos. :: ehmjay 22:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you should take photos of "the gloved one" then. -I'll bring the food 06:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Genres

I note a slight edit war on this. Please note all genres must be based on sources. EG: www.allmusic.com. His genre is simply R&B. It's his style which is new jack swing, pop, pop/rock etc. The article should be altered to reflect that. -I'll bring the food 06:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Apparently new jack swing is also a subgenre, not a style of R&B. Curently the situation is confused on this issue and discussion is going on regarding it at the infobox template page. However the genre column should be generalised, there is a consensus on that. R&B not New jack swing, or Pop-rock etc.--I'll bring the food 19:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It's a fair point, but I think that MJ has done a lot of different styles of music. His main genre is R&B, though, and plus it's sourced so I think it'd be best to leave the genre.--Ashadeofgrey (talk ·  contribs) 11:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

POV additions to lead

DenisRS repeatedly adds:

(being raised among other nine children of different ages and two adults in just couple of bedrooms, Jackson insisted that there is nothing controversial in his doings, and that he never invited or asked any children to stay with him, and that parents had to make the approval)

after the statement:

His frequently held sleepover parties received disparaging media coverage after it was revealed that children frequently shared his bed or bedroom

The question is do we want something like this in the intro?--Ashadeofgrey (Talk) 10:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I, personally, would support anything that is sourced and isn't in brackets--Ashadeofgrey (Talk) 10:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Also the comment on Steve Irwin's page is totally different; the reader may not know anthing about the so-called "baby dangling" incident. (Plus that comment isn't sourced either)--Ashadeofgrey (Talk) 11:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Eh, I think it's just going to look stupid as sharing a room as a kid is something lots of people have done, but most (I'd say 99.9999999 %) don't have little children coming for sleepovers. Arniep 11:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually Jackson said to the mother of Jordie Chandler that sleeping with kids is not unnatural and she had just been conditioned to believe that it was wrong. So when the quote above says "he never invited or asked any children to stay with him" it doesn't look like he tried his best to discourage the sleepovers either. So, if we're going to include the statement at the top we'll have to include a few other ones like the above. Arniep 11:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Denis is trying to add that to the introduction? Something similar might be okay in the section of the biography where the sleepovers are discussed if it NPOV and properly referenced, but I definitely don't think it is appropriate to paste it into the introduction. It also needs to be written properly as that text is ungrammatical and the language is simply not up to standard. I agree with Ashadeofgrey that it needs to be properly sourced (and not in brackets). I don't think the Steve Irwin article supports the edit Denis is trying to make, though. The section in the Irwin article where Steve defends taking his son with him while the feeding the croc (I presume that is what Denis is referring to) is in section 3.3, a long way from the introduction. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 14:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with Sarah Ewart on this one. I really don't see the reasoning for having this in the "introduction". Somewhere else in the article perhaps, but it certainly holds no validity for the "introduction". Also - I think it would be a little hard to get reliable sources to cite for all this information. But who knows? :: ehmjay 14:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I've removed this from the intro so many times myself. Well done to ashadeofgrey for bringing it up.--I'll bring the food 19:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Well:

1) How come there is information on media's attitude towards matter of sleepovers in "Introduction" section, when it is even not fact of Jackson's biography? It not what Jackson did.

2) And, simultaneously, how is that -- while item #1 is in there -- some of you tell that addition of Jackson's explanatatory information does not belong to "Introduction" section?

3) what exactly is unsourced? Both Bashir interview, as well as Private Home Movies interview and other all cited as sources.

4) since when object's own information on critical to his/her biography became "POV" (as something "questionable under Wikipedia policy)?

5) how come Steve Irwin's article has explanatory information on his incident with 'feeding crocodiles with babies' and here the same thing, all of sudden, is not allowed? Again: try go to Steve Irwin's page and "purify" things there.

So, if anyone wants Jackson's explanatory information to be not in the "Introduction", but anywhere lower, then it has to be moved along with the mention of sleepovers/critique. In fact, the bringing the subject of sleepovers with related/non-related children in *** "Introduction" *** section is POV itself and I will move it lower along with Jackson's explanatory information. DenisRS 20:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Additionally: by the way, Jackson's production company, along with Epic Records (Sony-BMG) made a major audit recently. It became known today that Thriller's sales reached 104 million worldwide, and Guinness made certificate for that (photos available with Jackson and a row of his certificates). Details are not available, so the fact is that and information should be updated. DenisRS 20:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, don't change any stats on Thriller unless you're sourcing it. Secondly, don't change anything until a consensus has been met. Thirdly - and I'm a big fan of Michael Jackson - I think it should be included. This is because if you ask anyone to name something biographical about him they'll mention that and secondly WP:LEAD says to"include criticism if there has been significant, notable criticism." and "The relative weight given to points in the lead should reflect the relative weight given to each in the remainder of the article."--Ashadeofgrey (talk ·  contribs) 20:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

There isn't any point in using a non-featured article (Steve Irwin's) as an example.--Ashadeofgrey (talk ·  contribs) 20:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, I did not yet change Thriller sales, secondly, secondly, You failed to address #2, #3, #4 items of my list. Addressing Irwin's matter, You did not provide reason why all of sudden explanatory information should by hidden for readers.

I agree to not include the discussed addition, but only if the whole paragraph will be withheld from the "Introduction" section and placed here until "consensus" reached:

From 1988 to 2005, Jackson lived on his Neverland Ranch property, on which he built an amusement park and private zoo for economically disadvantaged and terminally ill children. His frequently held sleepover parties received disparaging media coverage after it was revealed that children frequently shared his bed or bedroom. These occurrences came to light first when he was accused of child sexual abuse in 1993. His sleepover parties were brought into the spotlight again in 2003 during the infamous Living with Michael Jackson TV Documentary. This resulted in Jackson being tried and later acquitted of more child molestation allegations and several other charges in 2005.

DenisRS 21:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

for #2, "The relative weight given to points in the lead should reflect the relative weight given to each in the remainder of the article."; there is barely any mention of that in the article and so it shouldn't be there. for #4, your edits were POV. for #3, I've not seen the Bashir interview and I can't remember Private Home Movies mentioning that the reason why he thinks its OK to share his bed with children is because he did with his own relatives when he was younger. And I can't see why he would mention that--Ashadeofgrey (talk ·  contribs) 22:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

And don't remove any content without reason, you should by now have gotten blocked for violating the WP:3RR rule and a warning for blanking content. thanks --Ashadeofgrey (talk ·  contribs) 22:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

New Stats for Thriller Sales...

So Jackson has just been presented with a new certificate from the Guiness World Records... from a recent news update: "Michael received was a certificate for greatest selling album ever. The certificate itself (pictured right, click to enlarge) states the album has sold over a staggering 104 million albums worldwide since its 1982 release." So I guess that 60 million is slightly off? Should it be updated to reflect this rather LARGE number? :: ehmjay 23:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes (if you can source it) from me, and DenisRS also mentioned this but I haven't seen the source--Ashadeofgrey (talk ·  contribs) 00:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Please can you source this ASAP as this is impacting other pages mentioning Thriller too. There is no reference via Google nor the GWR homepage.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Maggott2000 (talk • contribs)

As of right now the only sites I can find that cite this information are MJ fan sites, however I have a feeling that the Guiness site has yet to be updated...and seeing that the diamond awards are tomorrow I have a feeling we will get more sites with this info after tomorrow. In the meantime MJNI and MJSTAR (Which cites Guiness as it's source) :: ehmjay 03:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

MJ at Disneyland pictures

Hi, I'm the author of the pictures. Initially, they were (wrongly) attributed to jmorelo, which is my nickname in Flickr. I changed that and, since I'm also a wikipedist, I put a link to my wikipage. Then they were both removed. I'm OK with removing whatever link (I just thought that was informative), but since the pictures (see here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/atalaya/169436395/ ) have a cc-by license, you do have to attribute them. Be it to jmerelo (my Flickr nick) to Jjmerelo (my wikipedia nick) or to JJ Merelo (my real name), they have to be attributed. Besides, I have seen in the stream of changes that somebody has already done so, but his changes have been reverted. So instead of doing it myself, I prefer to leave the position clear, before we start a change-and-revert war. JJMerelo 15:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)