Talk:United States and state terrorism

AfD

FYI:

The User:GabrielF/ConspiracyNoticeboard page is up for deletion right now. This article was listed on User:GabrielF/ConspiracyNoticeboard during the last AfD. Best wishes, Travb (talk) 17:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Articles for Deletion debate

This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Doc^g 18:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Some very good (and quite obvious) points were made by user A.B. Lovelight 18:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Who is A.B.? Travb (talk) 04:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Abandoned sandbox page

Allegations of state terrorism by United States of America/Sandbox1 seems to have been an attempt to rework this page that went no-where; I've listed it for deletion as a housekeeping measure. If anyone wants to merge material in from there, please do so and redirect the page (to keep the history). Shimgray | talk | 13:35, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality dispute

Is the neutrality of this article still being disputed? If so, where? If not, can we remove the tag from the top of the page? SheffieldSteel 01:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Power to you. :-( WP:BB. Travb (talk) 22:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the neutrality disputed label should be removed.--NYCJosh 00:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the article has serious POV issues. For starters, the name of the article itself presumes guilt, it would be NPOV if it were named "Allegations of....". Furthermore, quotes from individuals that publicly express their desire to harm the US in any way are taken as reliable sources. Therefore, I believe that the POV tag should remain --Kimon^talk 14:14, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree wih Kimon. Although I find the concept ludicrous, as a citizen of the US, I welcome the attention and examination but disagree with the contents factually, and with the article's intent. However, the author(s) have the right to question these activities allegedly made by the US, and there have been several questionable activities that are historical attempts to influence state affairs that were not done within the legal framework within which statecraft is usually accomplished.

First, there is no dispute with reference to Nicaragua. The International Court of Justice cites international terrorism as the very reason that it found in favor of Nicaragua in 1986. At the very least this case is perfectly neutral. Secondly, there is no question whatsoever that Posada is an international terrorist of the extreme order, and harboring him is an act of terrorism as defined by the United States. These should not only be included under the heading 'State Terrorism by the United States', they ought to be included under a subheader other than 'Allegations', for there is nothing alleged about them.

Sheldogg 4-17-2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.219.57.25 (talk) 04:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC).

Title

Why is the title "State terrorism by United States of America" and not "State terrorism by theUnited States of America" (as it was originally?) Also whoever made the move from there didn't do it correctly, the talkpage from "State terrorism by United States of America" redirects here. Sfacets 04:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I just moved the Talk page to match the current article title (which is "State terrorism by United States of America" at the moment). I do not want to involve myself in the revert war regarding the title, that is why I simply matched the talk page to the current name. The redirects for the talk page are a mess, but that will have to be sorted out when there is a final title. Until then, I find double redirects (for talk pages) acceptable. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 08:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Note: Please see the village pump policy discussion regarding the title of this article

here. Thanks. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 20:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's time to put all of the "Allegations . . ." articles up for Afd, as they all violate our rules against WP:NOR#Synthesis_of_published_material_serving_to_advance_a_position, codified at WP:SYNT.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 20:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how they are violations. It's not wikipedia editors making the allegations, it's all based on published material and information from news organizations. Heavy Metal Cellist^talk_contribs

NPOV on account of the title

Since it is a controversial question whether the US has committed terrorism, the title should not hijack the premise/beg the question by implicitly or explicitly assuming that there is such a thing as state terrorism by the U.S. Allegations of state terrorism of the United States should be the title, with everything else redirecting to it. --Leifern 21:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Woohoo, yeah. Let's implement even more systematic bias and comply to the U.S. propaganda. I have only one thing to say about this: if the title of this article is changed to Allegiations of state terrorism by the United States, then I demand Islamist terrorism be renamed to Allegiations of Islamist terrorism. Salaskan 23:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. If you read the US's own definition of terrorism, it's pretty ridiculous to say that the the US doesn't commit such acts. the World Court agrees. Murderbike 00:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Change title to "American war crimes"?

--Arigato1 16:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

No, because a "war crime" presupposes the existence of a war. (E.g. many events at Falujah as part of the war against Iraq; Mei Lay massacre.) However, if you wish to write a separate article about US War Crimes, it might be interesting. --NYCJosh 23:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. --Kimon^talk 14:14, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The Atomic bombs on Japan and use of chemical weapons in Vietnam war.

That is something that should be mentored to. --Arigato1 17:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Find some reliable sources that you think support your contention that these events constituted terrorism and we'll consider them.--NYCJosh 23:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. If the Vietcong or Vietminh had used chemical weapons on the United States, than it would have been considered terrorism. Why is it now when we do it?

AfD (fifth nomination) recomended changes

The article is currently up at AfD, and if the closing admin looks only at the vote tally, it will probably not be deleted. But there are a lot of good points there, and I would like to help to address them. The reason for being up on AfD was WP:SYNT and WP:OR. This isn't necessarily a difficult charge to clear the article of. Right now, the article becomes at times a list of events, building a case that says the US is a state terrorist. This looks like OR/SYNT because all of the events are recorded without the context of how the allegations are made. It says "this happened, then this...". That is fine for a 'List of US government acts that have been called state terrorism article, but I think this article would be a lot nice if it was about the allegations themselves. That is, I'd like to go through and connect all of the events into a narrative discussing two groups making the allegations, (1) world leaders using anti-American sentiment as a part of their platform and (2) left-wing western political scientists and commentators using polemic language to incite anger about US foreign policy and advocate a change in the US (and beyond) publics feelings about US foreign policy.

So, in order to shake the SYNT claim, I think the article should seek to be more meta in its discussion of the events themselves. By this I mean that it should report on sources discussing what campaigns are like in Cuba, rather than simply repeating the words of Castro (or whomever). So instead of "Cuba points to the US's involvement in .... as proof that it is a terrorist state", we should say, "Commentators note that Cuban officials use examples such as the US's involvement in .... as proof that it is a terrorist state^{citation here}".

Thus, the tasks, as I see them, are drawing together the different sections into a connected narrative, trying to use different (more reputable, less POV, and more removed from the action) sources in a non-SYNT way, and expanding the lead a bit to give more context to the allegations and those making the allegations. Please feel free to stick in any other changes the article needs... Smmurphy^(Talk) 23:23, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I added a lead to the allegations section as an attempt to put the allegations into context. I didn't source the second paragraph, but added it for balance from the first. My knowledge is more in political science than current events and foreign affairs, but I felt that it was important to note both sources of allegations. If I'm wrong, let me know, or go ahead and fix it. Thanks, Smmurphy^(Talk) 23:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but what you have written on the article is entirely original research. Regarding your above comments;

1. Fidel Castro is not mentioned in this article and Cuban officials are quoted sparsely only to add background to the claims reported in all mainstream forums and encyclopedias. This should be no more of an issue than the copious amounts articles which use the U.S. government as a source such as U.S. list of state sponsors of international terrorism, U.S. State Department list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations etc. 95% of the world finds the U.S. government no more reliable a source than the Cuban government. And there is no policy stating that either government sources are non-notable and therefore not applicable in an article.
2. The Cuba section should be about the events detailed - various U.S. governments sponsoring, supporting and sheltering terrorists, agreed by everyone including the U.S. justice department itself. If you want to discuss "anti-American" sentiment, there is an article called Anti Americanism.
3. There is nothing "Anti American" or "platform seeking" about Cuban requests for public justice regarding events as disparate as the bombing of Cubana Flight 455, the terrorist bombings in Havana during the 1990s, assassinations and many more attacks dating back to before the Bay of Pigs invasion. Be aware that there were scores of terrorist attacks by CIA affiliated anti-Castro groups in the United States alone, that is before we begin to examine the ongoing situation in Cuba. Given that many of the perpetrators, confirmed CIA agents all, have confessed and been prosecuted, yet still walk free in the United States thanks to government pardons, as documented in numerous mainstream outlets, then I think you are barking up the wrong tree. At present, the Cuba section meets policies WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:V and WP:NOR it uses sources from CNN, BBC, Washington Post, LA Times, Miami Herald etc and is in line with the Encyclopedia Britannica account of events. Attempts to remove or reshape well cited material to fit an agenda will not be appreciated. I know it's hard for some people to comprehend or face up to who might be new to this concept, but the links between their government and terrorism are no secret to those millions who have been following these incidents for many years, and have seen the results and heard the testimonies of the families of victims many times.

This is taken from Encylopedia Britannica [1], whose account is far more POV than ours, and doesn't have some analysis about how all these events are part of some "Anti-American platform".

The New York Times in July published a long interview with Luis Posada Carriles, a Cuban-born, CIA-trained terrorist who had been convicted of bombing a Cuban airliner off Barbados in 1976 and had served nine years in a Venezuelan prison. In the interview he admitted to more recent attacks against Cuban property, claiming to have organized the 1997 bombings in Havana hotels and to have had his activities financed by the late Jorge Mas Canosa and other leaders of the Cuban-American National Foundation (CANF). The Interior Ministry announced that three Guatemalans and two Salvadoreans were to be put on trial for their part in the bombings. Described as mercenaries, they admitted to working under the direction of Carriles and Arnaldo Monzón Plasencia, also of CANF. A CANF director, José Antonio Llama, and six other men were indicted in August by a U.S. federal grand jury in San Juan, P.R., on charges of plotting to kill President Castro. The charges related to a four-year period, but they specifically mentioned a plot discovered in 1997 when Castro visited Margarita Island, Venezuela, for a summit meeting.

-- Zleitzen^(talk) 00:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Those voting delete at the AfD aren't voting that way because they doubt the events happened, but because of the way the events are presented. The claim is SYNT and OR, that is what I think this article needs to get beyond. The way I see it, the article reads as if Noam Chomsky wrote it (in fact, it reads very nicely), which feels like OR. I hope I haven't offended anyone, my suggestions are an attempt to deal with that. Part of my viewpoint might be because I've been thinking about an article called "Allegations of state...". This title is bolder, and in my mind leads itself to a more difficult article to write. If the article talks a little bit more about who is making the claims, and why, then I think it would feel more balanced. But I guess that only makes sense under the "allegations" title. I think this title is more difficult because the characterization of some of the events as terrorism is in dispute. In either case, this brings up another point. Should the article discuss the official (and often mainstream) view on these events or where it is claimed that the incidents are not "terrorism"? Smmurphy^(Talk) 01:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there a mainstream view that believes the bombings of civilian airplanes, hotels, cars, assassinations etc for political capital is not terrorism? -- Zleitzen^(talk) 08:58, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Consider, for instance, Luis Posada. The US trained him as he was anti-Castro. A US FBI anti-terrorism specialist claims that the plans to bomb Cubana flight 455 were made at the same time that plans to assassinate Orlando Letelier occurred, an assassination associated with Chilean secret police. Many US elected officials consider him a terrorist, and he is currently held by the DHS, and officials are not talking much about him. Extradition is politically difficult, as Cuba is a political enemy and Venezuela would likely send him to Cuba. Kucinich has talked about him many times on the public record, such as here. Smmurphy^(Talk) 17:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Posada is currently being held in Texas (I think) for re-entering the U.S. illegally, not on terrorist charges. Though the U.S. justice department have requested that he be tried on these charges (he was convicted in Venezuela in 1976 but escaped from jail with the help of the CANF) - the Bush administration have refused to allow this (for obvious reasons due to Posada's hero status in Florida). Other convicted terrorists such as Orlando Bosch are free to paint murals at home in Florida, and are funded and feted by anti-Cuban congressmen in the state such as Ros-Lehtinen and the Diaz-Balart brothers. These convicted terrorists were employed by both the CIA and the Cuban-American national foundation for many years. The extradition story from the U.S. about enemy states is bogus given that Cuba/Venzuela have agreed that Posada could be tried in the U.S., and he is also sought by Barbados and other Caribbean states for extradition with no reply. -- Zleitzen^(talk) 17:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

That is fine. Per AfD, this article is seen as pushing a cause, fails WP:NPOV, etc. Adding some cited discussion of other perspectives on the US's involvement is appropriate. Smmurphy^(Talk) 18:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Smmurphy, when you said "1) world leaders using anti-American sentiment as a part of their platform and (2) left-wing western political scientists and commentators using polemic language to incite anger about US foreign policy and advocate a change in the US (and beyond) publics feelings about US foreign policy", do you mean that you believe that no one actually believes that the US has committed acts of terrorism, and all allegations thereof are just propaganda and spin? Because I know many people who honestly believe that the US has committed acts of terrorism. I think it is important that this article reflects that many people, not just commentators and dictators, believe that there is substantial evidence linking the US government to many terrorist actions. Heavy Metal Cellist^talk_contribs

Many people realize that the US is involved in these events, but not many in the west call the US a state terrorist because of them (the word terrorism is almost always used as propaganda, I think). So I think that an article about US state terrorism should discuss who uses that language and why. Outside of the west, it is perhaps more common to consider the US a terrorist state (or at least these events issues of state terrorism). If this is the case, it isn't discussed in the article either. Otherwise the article's title should involve non-UN sanctioned interventionism or something. Smmurphy^(Talk) 20:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Z: my understanding of the Posada matter is a little different apparently he was held nine years in Venezuela even though a military court had found him not guilty. Then he escaped before a civil trial. The Chavez government is again trying to have him returned for trial; however, given the reputation of that government it is not likely he will be sent back. As to that airliner, it is near impossible to distinguish military Cuban Air Transport from a civilian transport. Analysis of the passenger list shows that even the fencing team were members of the Cuban military, there were North Korean agents, and directors of the Cuban trawling fleet which was used to spy, and apparently land agents, as well as fish. BTW way my non-existant vote would be to keep this page since it clearly demonstrates extreme leftwing bias and thus shows Wikipedia in the worst possible light, thus warning that Wikipedia is not the most reliable source. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 22:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello EJ, you pop up in the oddest places! Sorry, but I agree with you on some things we collaborate on in wikipedia, disagree on others, but you're way out of line on this one, I've heard your theories before about "the passenger list" "North Korean agents" and so on. There are relatives of the teenage fencing team that live in Florida, not Cuba, who you can contact to clear up your theories if you so need to. I've seen them speak about their relatives and have read Ann Bardach's interviews with them. Highly recommended. "Analysis of the passenger list..." tut.. "Cuban military"...indeed. There were 11 Guyanese and a pregnant woman on that plane as well as the fencing team, and what about the Venezuelans who hopped on the flight to plant the bomb before hopping off again? Were they all Cuban military personnel? Your vision is way too blurred on this one and you've gone of the edge. And there is nothing extreme or "leftwing" about reporting what has been reported in encyclopedias and newspapers around the world. -- Zleitzen^(talk) 23:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Phoenix Program

Does it fit in this article? --Merat 13:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely -- LamontCranston 23:48, 16 May 2007

Cleanup Process

I would like to suggest that agree to clean up the regional sections to the following format:

Heading with the name of the claimant

Write out the allegation specifically, then spend no more than a paragraph outlining the allegation. Link to articles detailing the circumstances whenever possible and minimize the paragraph and quotes on this page.

Conclude the section with the outcome of the allegation

This format should provide the reader with a quicker way to read about the allegations and subsequently get details as they see fit. There should also be a section for groups and notable individuals from within America that have made such allegations. Again to reinforce the topic, we're talking about facts - facts that allegations have been made - not judging the allegations themselves. Amxt 19:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The material in the article is well sourced and well written; I don't think it should be removed without being merged into other articles about the incidents discussed. Also, much of this material isn't adequately covered elsewhere. Merging the material elsewhere would just disperse the material that is causing some editors to believe the article is NPOV or violates SYNT or whatever, so I think that before we move any sections we should try to bring in official US views and other dissenting views where applicable and notable. Smmurphy^(Talk) 03:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, agreed with keeping the full text and not branching everything. I'll revise my suggestion to stating the allegation clearly, the details, then concluding each with 1) the respondents POV 2) the impact and result should there be one. Amxt 19:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC) I disagree with your first suggestion because it would center the article on the sources making the allegations rather than on the substance. With respect to your third suggestion, providing the "outcome" and the "impact and result," good luck on researching additional material on this. For example, if you can somehow find information that quantifies the number of people killed or injured by US sponsored terrorism in Iraq in the early 1990s or in Cuba in the 1960s-1970s, by all means let us see it. --NYCJosh 02:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Josh that, given that at the most recent AfD there was no consensus to rename this article "allegations of..." (as I, myself, had mistakenly believed earlier), the first suggestion won't help the article. I read Amxt's third suggestion as saying that the article should discuss the US's (and other) more recent position on the event in question. For some of the events, the US has come public about its role, or at least it has made statements distancing itself from certain individuals, which should be noted, even if it is suspect. Smmurphy^(Talk) 04:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Iran and Syria links in definition section

Unless folks disagree, I think the notes about Iran and Syria in the definition of state terrorism section should be removed, there is no context for the references, or explanations at all. Murderbike 22:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

They could be useful if they were wikilinked to the specific incident being referred (terrorism in Syria and terrorism in Iran have the relevant info, I believe). This might I think it might work better in the footnotes, though, something like "The United States considers event X an example of state terrorism of type Y, as cited in Z". Smmurphy^(Talk) 22:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It's referring to two different types of state terrorism, it seems redundant to have a def. for State terrorism, as there is already a link to that article two lines above, and a definition of terrorism by proxy would be better than just a link to syria's article, as that article doesn't clarify as easily what state terror "by proxy" actually mean. maybe the paragraph should just distinguish the two, instead of giving vague examples or links to other articles? Murderbike 23:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Words to avoid, I think that we should avoid basing this article on the definition of terrorism alone. It is factual that the US categorizes Iran and Syria as state terrorists of certain types, and the reasons why are relatively familiar to many readers, which is why I suggested keeping the link. You are right, however, that better would be the precise definitions as given by the state department in the US, as well as corresponding level institutions in other countries. What the dictionary says, IMHO, is a bit more troublesome for an article about terrorism. Smmurphy^(Talk) 18:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The author's emotional feeling about the subject quite clear...

Wow, without going into the validity of the content, it's quite clear the contributor(s) to the article feel strongly and emotionally about the content. That's fine, except it causes the content to lose credibility as it raises a big red flag signaling bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.215.100.191 (talk) 01:08, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

Yeah, I thought this was a joke page, at first. I followed the link from "The State terrorism series" box which is on Idi Amin (I just watched The Last King of Scotland). He uses Iran and Syria in the definition of state terrorism, and yet they aren't on this State Terrorism series list being put on a bunch of articles and yet the USA is? Quite inconsistent. And claiming a schoolbus was targeted by the CIA? And the quotes about the USA killing children which reminds me of Osama Bin laden's speeches where he claims the USA killed children? I can only say, this is an absurd article. People claiming their "enemies" are killing children is really pointless to repeat, it is obviously designed to rile people up and contains no factual information. (That fits with this article, even the title of which is designed to rile people up, but it doesn't fit with wikipedia.) It certainly needs a lot of work to become NPOV --Danny Rathjens 07:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

If you think there should be articles in State Terrorism by Iran and Syria, write them. Them not existing does nothing to discredit the claims of US State Terrorism. Murderbike 08:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Those articles do exist. In fact, they are linked a couple sentence above to another comment you replied to. Obviously their existence does nothing to counter the point of this section, though. Which is that the authors' bias clearly shows through with the way it is written(e.g. all the accusations of intentional child-killing with no evidence). The "state terrorism" series template listing the USA and not Iran or Syria and yet including Iran and Syria in the very definition of state terrorism in this article are just more symptoms of trying to advance a political viewpoint rather than present the facts. --Danny Rathjens 22:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The linked articles are for Terrorism in Iran and Syria, not specifically State terrorism, so it seems to me they shouldn't be included in the State Terrorism template. When I get some time tonight I'll do ya the favor of citing some "child-killing" evidence. Unfortunately my expertise is not in the State Terrorism of Iran or Syria, so can only hope that someone else could write those articles. Murderbike 03:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, after going through the whole article, I found three references to child killing. None of them specified "intentional" child-killing, and the first two are sourced, two the UN, and to the NYT, both reliable sources, right? the third, is in a quote from Hugo Chavez, that I don't personally care about. It's a quote, not an assertion by the article itself. Am I missing something? Murderbike 03:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

moved to talk

The following was moved to the talk page:

As well, the US maintained economic sanctions against Iraq from 1991 until the 2003 invasion. According the the UN, 500,000 children died as a direct result of the sanctions between 1991 and 1998. In 1996, Madeline Albright made highly controversial remarks in an interview with Lesley Stahl on CBS's 60 Minutes. Asked by Stahl with regards to the effect of sanctions against Iraq: "We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?". Albright replied: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it."

I don't think this fits in as terrorism. 69.150.209.15 14:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

"`Terrorism', according to the FBI, `is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objective',"", This is the US's own definition of terrorism, and i'd say that intentionally/knowingly causing the deaths of half a million children (an inarguably "civilian" population in my mind) qualifies. Murderbike 17:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The first key word is "unlawful". Economic sanctions are not unlawful; the USA is not under any obligation to trade with any foreign state except when there is a valid treaty in place. Laws in the USA also allow the US government to seize assets, etc., and those same political techniques are used by foreign nations against the USA all the time. The second key word is "intentionally" from your comment. The USA did not impose sanctions to kill children or anyone else. The USA imposed sanctions as part of a political dispute with the regime in power at that time; the USA wanted IRAQ to comply with UN sanctions. Calling what the USA did "state terrorism" is a useless pursuit that is not supported by balanced evidence. The article is WP:POV because it cites proponents of one point of view and does not include the other. — John Cardinal 03:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

As to "intention", if you know something is happening, or going to happen, as a result of your actions, and you continue with your actions, I don't know how you can just say "oh, but we didn't MEAN to do it." and be absolved of resposibility for the outcome of your intentional actions. Murderbike 03:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Include in article:U.S. protects Iranian opposition group in Iraq

See: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/05/protected.terrorists/index.html

An Iranian opposition group based in Iraq, labeled a terrorist organization by the United States, gets protection from the U.S. military despite Iraqi pressure to leave the country. 68.92.159.96 05:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

US support for the MEK is not state terrorism. It is support for terrorism. It is a different topic. State terrorism, defined loosely, is terrorism committed by a state (I think). 74.14.226.11 19:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Afghanistan and the "Green Belt"

• I'm not sure why this section is included in this article. According to the definition posted on this page, state terrorism requires the illegal use of force against civilians. The CIA-trained mujahideen in Afghanistan did not fight civilians, they fought invading Soviet troops.
• Even if some of those fighters turned out to later fight the Russians in Chechnya, that was not the original intention of the CIA (at least not according to the cited article). At worst, this is the result of the law of unintended consequences. If you are going to call CIA training of Chechens state terrorism, then you should also list September 11th (because we funded Osama bin Laden, who later attacked the US).

If there are not objections, I will remove this section. --Dchall1 13:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Not that there's really THAT much difference, but it definitely sounds more like a proxy war. Murderbike 17:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Murderbike, I certainly won't argue that it's not a proxy war. I'm just saying that a proxy war doesn't fit the definition of terrorism as stated in this article. I think the defining characteristic is that violence has to be directed against civilians, and that did not occur in Afghanistan. Let me know what you think please... --Dchall1 17:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry for not being clearer. I was basically agreeing with you. It does become funny though, as I think the US gov't uses the term terrorism for acts against governments all the time. alas. Murderbike 18:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I've removed that section. If anyone disagrees, I'd be happy to discuss it further. Thanks! --Dchall1 12:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Native American 'Wars' need mention?

I was reading through this article with the thought in my niaive head that the treatment, and alleged attempted genocide of certain sections of the Native American population in the US territories in the 19th century would be prevelant here, as most of the articles for other countries mention treatment of the civilian population (Cambodia, et al). I am not the man to write this segment, but would it not make sense for it to be here, especially considering the US governments official apology for the illegal overthrow of the valid Hawaiian government and the proposed apology to the Native American peoples for "unlawful depredations and ill-conceived policies" lending powerful credence to the segment? Also, it would rationalise the article somewhat, be an anchor of 'relativity' for the rest of these 'allegations' - something to measure the Cuban or Nicaraguan issues against, in the manner of "This has been officially admitted, This is an allegation" to help the NPOV issue.

Bassclef 09:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. Murderbike 18:17, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree. mitcho/芳貴 07:03, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a 'domestic' or 'internal' section: covering the Native American 'Wars', COINTELPRO and anything else I might have missed. LamontCranston 23:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree.Giovanni33 18:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not an allegation

Why the actions of the United States in Nicaragua are listed as "Allegation" since an International Court found the United States guilt. That should be listed as something like "List of Terrorism Activities". ClaudioMB 06:47, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Atomic bombing of Japan

I understand that some users have strong feelings about this topic, but we should be discussing the issue rather than adding adding and removing it every other week. Personally, I don't believe it belongs in this article because it was at worst a war crime (though there are arguments that it could be considered simply an act of war). Those of you who have been involved with this article longer than I have, what do you think? --Dchall1 12:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no doubt that as a war crime. Look the definition of War Crime here in Wikipedia, the item 2.1. says "Directing attacks against civilians". ClaudioMB 17:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that this isn't a war crime. I'm just saying that if we agree that it is a war crime, it doesn't belong in this article. War crimes and state terrorism are not the same thing. Dchall1 16:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This was done under the color of war declared by both Japan and the US. The discussion of whether it belongs on a war crimes page is a debate best held there. Its definitely not a terrorist act however and wouldnt belong on this page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dman727 (talk • contribs) 17:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Simply because something is a war crime, does not make it any less of an act of terrorism. The two are not mutally exclusive. In fact, acts of terrorism have always been part of war; terroism is one of the tactics militaries have used against their oppoenents. The atomic bombing of Japan took place just as the war was coming to an end, to acheive, largly a political goal--not simply a military one. Thus, it is an act of terrorism carried out at the closing of the war.Giovanni33 19:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The war was not coming to an end. Rather, plans were being executed for implementing a full-scale invasion of the home island of Japan, with US troops being transported in large numbers by ship from Europe to Japan via the Panama Canal in June/July 1945. The estimated death toll was being estimated at being well over 1 million US soldiers to take the main island of Japan, with the death toll for civilians in Japan being estimated as being much, much higher. This all changed nearly overnight with the use of atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. From this point of view, the attack was not an act of terrorism, but rather an act of kindness, to end the madness before millions would have to die, the majority of which would have been civilians. The attack was neither a war crime, nor an act of terrorism, but was an act of kindness. Yaf 19:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Though it is debatable whether this was a war crime, personally I believe it was not, it definitely does not belong in an article on alleged state terrorism acts. --Kimon^talk 20:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the war was coming to an end and Japan was actively looking for a way to surrender under favorable terms--in fact the very terms that were accepted ultimately anyway. This was no act of kindness, it a crime against humanity, a war crime, and an act of terrorism. Your citing the fact that a plan was drawn up for an invasion of Japan is completely irrelevant--it does nothign to change these facts about the nature of this act. But, btw, the estimate death toll from that invasion ranges. You give the high number but the low number was 20k. But, who said that an invasion was itself necessary, or jusitifed? Its well known from historians who have studied the diplomatic archives of the US, Japan and the USSR, that days before Hiroshima, Truman himself agreed at a meeting that Japan was “looking for peace”. Virtually all his senior generals and political advisers told him there was no need to use the A-bomb. But the bombs were dropped anyway. "Impressing Russia was more important than ending the war”, Profesor of history Selden writes. This makes it a political aim, not a military necessity.

Also, consider the choice of targets. A large civilian population to maximize the effect of the terror was a prime consideration. The Target Committee at Los Alamos on May 10–11, 1945, rejected the use of the weapon against a strictly military objective. After the Hiroshima bombing, President Truman announced, "If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin from the air the likes of which has never been seen on this earth." That is not terrorism? In fact, the psychological effects on Japan were of great importance to the committee members.

Again, Truman was told by his army generals, Douglas Macarthur and Dwight Eisenhower, and his naval chief of staff, William Leahy, that there was no military need to use the bomb.

"Impressing Russia was more important than ending the war in Japan," says Selden. Truman was also worried that he would be accused of wasting money on the Manhattan Project to build the first nuclear bombs, if the bomb was not used, he adds.

Japan was already essentially defeated and ready to surrender. Even then-General Dwight D. Eisenhower, wrote in his memoir The White House Years:

"...Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives." Other U.S. military officers who disagreed with the necessity of the bombings include General Douglas MacArthur (the highest-ranking officer in the Pacific Theater), Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy (the Chief of Staff to the President), General Carl Spaatz (commander of the U.S. Strategic Air Forces in the Pacific), and Brigadier General Carter Clarke (the military intelligence officer who prepared intercepted Japanese cables for U.S. officials), and Admiral Ernest King, U.S. Chief of Naval Operations, Undersecretary of the Navy Ralph A. Bard,[80] and Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet. "The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan." Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet. "The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender." Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman.

The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, after interviewing hundreds of Japanese civilian and military leaders after Japan surrendered, reported:

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

Many, including General MacArthur, have contended that Japan would have surrendered before the bombings if the U.S. had notified Japan that it would accept a surrender that allowed Emperor Hirohito to keep his position as titular leader of Japan, a condition the U.S. did in fact allow after Japan surrendered. U.S. leadership knew this, through intercepts of encoded Japanese messages.

Therefore, my statements stand supported by the evidence: it was not militarily necessary to acheive the same results it would have anyway and was used purposefully agaisnt civilians basaed on acheiving a psychological effect and a political message to the cold war rival, the USSR, which was poised to move against an already badly defeated Japan--prior to the dropping of these bombs.

Lastly, it doesn't matter what we think, such as you don't agree with this analysis and POV. This is under the category of "Allegations." There is no reason not to report on these allegations of US terrorism--simply because you disagree with such an analysis. It doesnt matter. There is sufficient evidence to support these allegations and are a legitimate pov subject to legitimate debate.Giovanni33 20:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33, sorry I reverted your edit, but I'd appreciate it if you could led this discussion continue until we come to a consensus. Even if we agree that this act was a war crime (I would argue it isn't), all war crimes are not acts of terrorism. If they were, we would have to expand the list of states accused of practicing state terrorism to include all states who were ever accused of war crimes.

As the article stands now, all of the entries describe acts committed by the US against a state which we were not at war with. The bombings in Japan occurred during wartime. If we add this event, at the least we will then have to add all other instances in which the US was accused of war crimes. But if you take things that far, you will have diluted the message of the article and blurred the distinction between terrorism and war crimes even further than it already is. At the very least, can we please leave the allegation out of the article until we come to some kind of conclusion? --Dchall1 21:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The issue is not that the bombings were war crimes or not. This issue is if these war crimes also constitute acts of terror. Thus, we do not have to list all war crimes, simply all acts of terror by the US. The distinction between war crimes and terrorism is maintained, even if there is some cross over given that an act can be both a war crime, and an act of terrorism. Otherwise, we have to exclude all acts of terrorims that occured in the context of a war, simply because there was a war between the parties? That hardly seems justifiable because a war may or may not have terrorism, but having a war does not negate its use (and reality), no? I'll hold off on reverting to allow for more discussion to take place, but I thought that section was long standing already, which I restored.Giovanni33 21:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The argument could also be made that war in and of itself is an act of terror, as is the declaration of war, the bombing of cities, etc. etc. etc. My position is that if an act occurred during wartime, it should be judged whether it was a crime of war or an act compliant with the rules of engagement, the articles of war and the conventions related to war signed by the warring parties. Therefore, the discussion of this specific act should be moved to the relevant article's talk page and removed from here. As to the argument that it has been part of the article for long time, does not negate the fact that it does not belong here. --Kimon^talk 21:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there are other arguments about other issues, however, I fail to see how this is related to this issue? The argument that all acts of war are itself an act of terror is done by broadening the established definition of terrorism (since not all acts of war fit in the most accepted and standard definition of the term). However, we are (and I am) sticking with the standard definition. Therefore, we have to look at which acts (be they done in war or not), fall under its scope.

Likewise, the question of an act of war being in compliance with established rules of warfare or not (war crimes), are good and fine but are also not relevant to this issue, on this topic. Why bring it up? I agree that discussion should be moved to the relevant articles talk page. The issue here is about this act accused of being an act of terror as a real POV that should be reported (it may also be an act of war, it may also be a war crime, a crime against humanity and many other things--but so what?). The only reason war crimes, etc, are being discussed at all is because that was the argument being made for not including this, i.e. the argument that its a war crime, or that because it occured in the context of a war, etc--but that does not logically follow to a conclusion that therefore the act is not an act of terror. Nowhere in the definition does it exclude acts of terror being committed during a war. The main elements that cause these atomic bombings fall within the category of an act of terror have been supplied in the arguments above which represent this POV, and thus, its fair to report on the allegation that these are specifically acts of terror by the United States. That they may also be acts of war and instances of war crimes, crimes against humanity, etc. are notwithstanding.

As to the argument that it has been part of the article for a long times, I agree, does not negate the question of it belonging here or not. That was not the point of the argument. The argument was about removing it UNTIL it has been discussed here vs. not removing it until it has been discussed here. Since it was the long standing version the argument that I should not replace it until we have consensus here, seems to be upside down. That person making that argument should himself not remove it until consensus is reached to remove it, given it was part of the article already. That was the point. The "fact" that it doesn't belong here is not fact, but the point of contention to be resolved. So far I don't see any good arguments. Saying that ones doesnt personally belive it is an act of terror is irrelevant. One does not have to agree with the allegation to report it as an allegation--unless its not a notable allegation? Clearly it is given the sources.Giovanni33 22:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The cited source for the claim of the atomic bombings being an act of terror were from the Green Left Weekly, hardly a source that meets WP:ATT. Are there any mainstream sources that make this claim, too? Yaf 23:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Thats easy since there is no shortage of sources that express this point of view, mostly, ofcourse among the new left or liberal political spectrum, but also in some libertarian POV's. For example, this is typical: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0815-06.htm which is a POV from the Hiroshima Alliance for Nuclear Weapons Abolition (HANWA). And, ofcourse Znet Mag: "The clear intent, both of the fire bombing and atomic bombing was the terrorizing and killing of civilians and the elimination of Japan's cities." [2] And to show its a POV that is widespread enough, take a look at this from Lewrockwell's article, entitled, "Targeting Civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki." It states, "Having Imperial Japan surrender, even if a worthy goal, was nevertheless a political one, and the targeting of innocents to achieve that goal was an act of terrorism." [3] Here is an academic paper that makes same argument: http://faculty.mckendree.edu/scholars/2003/randol.htm Another Zmag article: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=2310 Even other politicians express this POV. For instance Presendient of Venezula, Hugo Chavez Calls Dropping of A-Bomb, 'Greatest Act of Terrorism in Recorded History' He was addressing the opening ceremonies for the World Festival of Students and Youth, the Venezuelan president paid tribute to the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki: [4]

And we have books. Lots of books that express this POV. The best one that comes to mind is problably, "The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb" by historian Gar Alperovitz, a historian and political economist, is president of the National Center for Economic Alternatives. He is also Senior Research Scientist in the Department of Government and Politics at the University of Maryland, and a Fellow of the Institute for Policy Studies, and formerly a Fellow of King's College, Cambridge, and of the Institute of Politics at Harvard; he has served as Legislative Assistant in the U.S. House of Representatives, Legislative Director in the U.S. Senate, and Special Assistant in the Department of State. His other books include Atomic Diplomacy: Hiroshima and Potsdam, and he has written numerous articles for The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, The Nation, Foreign Policy, The Atlantic Monthly, and many other academic and popular publications. Other books that acknowlege and mention this POV, and some argue for it:

"Hiroshima in America: Fifty Years of Denial" by R.J. Lifton and G. Mitchell Putnam. This book offers a truthful portrayal of how Truman and other American war criminals perpetuated the lie that we had no choice but to drop the bomb.

"Saving Private Power: The Hidden History of "The Good War" by Michael Zezima

A People's History of the United States: 1492 — Present by Howard Zinn

Against Empire by Michael Parenti, Ph.D.

The Sword and the Dollar: Imperialism, Revolution and the Arms Race by Michael Parenti, Ph.D.

Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower by William Blum

Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism by Michael Parenti

The Culture of Terrorism by Noam Chomsky

The Habits of Highly Deceptive Media: Decoding Spin and Lies in Mainstream News by Norman Solomon

Inventing Reality: The Politics of News Media by Michael Parenti, Ph.D.

The Hidden Persuaders: What makes us buy, believe — and even vote — the way we do? by Vance Packard

There are many more, but the point is made: this is a legitimate and real POV, even if you don't agree with it.Giovanni33 00:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

And that's exactly the problem: it's POV. Are there any neutral sources? In any case, this is not a topic for discussion here. BTW, perhaps you should read this. --Kimon^talk 00:57, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a "neutral" source. Nuetrality is utopian. You can achieve nuetrality by reporting on all points of view in correct porportion, give both sides their repsective voice, and proper qualification. Ofcourse this view is a point of view. That does not mean we suppress it under the guise of nuetrality. If we did that we would not be able to represent any controversial issue. The sources above are listed only to demonstrate this is a widely held allegation and thus should be reported on. And, notice that we don't report it as a fact but as an allegation. This is in keeping with NPOV language. Don't take sides, just report the issues and let the reader decide. Lastly, I did read your link, but so what? It talks about the controversial nature of the concept of State Terrorism, since States that engage in terrorism want to make it a term that applies only to tactics that the poor use. Since this article is about State terrorism, i.e. acts of terrorism committed by the US, then this is not an issue. Giovanni33 07:33, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

By the listing there, "Generally, the definition of terrorism does not extend to states in direct and open military conflict, if the actions of their armed forces are within the laws of war." Clearly, there was direct and open military conflict after December 7, 1941 between Japan and the United States. (BTW, wouldn't the attack on December 7th 1941 by Japan be a terroristic attack, since a state of war did not exist prior to the attack?) But, continuing with the atomic attack, by this line of thought, the atomic attack would not have been terrorism, since it was clearly within the laws of war, albeit with more collateral damage extending to civilian populations than for some attacks, although the firebombing of Dresden would be another case that resulted in considerable civilian collateral casualties during wartime. Likewise, the sources listed above, although numerous, are definitely rather leftist sources, and hardly neutral. They don't appear to be in accordance with WP:ATT, being both suspect and generally not reliable. It doesn't appear that there is a neutral set of sources that makes a case for the atomic attack being terrorism. I don't see how we can take leftist sources, for an act committed under the laws of war during wartime, and make a reasonable case for the atomic attack being a terrorist act. Yaf 02:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, generally, that is true. But so what? We are talking about a specific case where it is being said to apply. Saying something is generally true, is not an argument that its always true. This is a case in point. Off topic but the attack on Pearl Harbor was not a terror attack, but a rather typical act of war: attacking a the military base on a colony of the United States, and yes, a state of war existed, and was announced prior to the attack (even if the US claims to have lost and delayed receipt of the message---it was known that Japan was going to attack). Again, this is a bit off topic. As far as your argument about neutral sources, as I said above, there is no such thing, and it's absurd for you to think a POV needs to be from some such magical, non-existent source for it to be a valid POV worth reporting. The sources I listed respresnt a range of the political spectrum, including a rather conservative libertarian publication. What do you consider "neutral" anyway? The US govt. itself? hehe! And, don't confuse the reliable, published source requirement with a POV source. The two have nothing to do with each other (btw, the source you are citing, another WP article, is not a reliable source itself per WP policy). As far a reasonable case not being made, that is your POV. But why do you want to imopose your POV to suppress reporting the case that may seem very reasonable to others such as myself and various academics and experts I cited above who feel that such a case is indeed reasonable? Report the allegation and let the reader decide what is reasonable or not.Giovanni33 07:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33, here's the problem the way I see it. We've set up a definition of terrorism, both on this page and on others. If we want Wikipedia to be internally consistent, we need to hold to that definition and not make special cases. I admit I haven't read the sources that you've listed to back up your argument, but I imagine that they are using their own defintions of "terrorism" and "war crimes" to make their determination. For the sake of consistency though, we need to measure events by the standards that we have set out. So either we change the definitions of terrorism to include war crimes, or we can't include this event. When we're dealing with such a controversial page as this one, it's vital that we are objectively documenting allegations of state terrorism and not POV-pushing. When we bend our definitions to include certain events, we lose our objectivity. Dchall1 13:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Why do you see that this is the problem? I've repeatedly said that this act conforms and fits the standard definition and that it doesn't matter if it also happens to fit into the category of a war crime. The two are not mutually exclusive. Where in the definition does it say that if its a state that commits in in the context of a war that its excluded from possibily being an act of terror? So its not me, but you who are bending the definition to exclude an act that by all criteria fits. If you say it doesn't fit, then please show how. The sources I've given above use the same standard definition and on this basis conclude that it was an act of terror: it was not military, it was political to have a major psychological impact on political events outside of Japan, and that large concentrations of civillians were selected for this purpose (not a military target).Giovanni33 17:43, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33, the agreed definition of terrorism, while being wooly, is specifically written to EXCLUDE this type of act. The line "does not extend to states in direct and open military conflict", although softened by the following phrase, is quite clear. This section needs to remain somewhere else. The atomic bombing being exluded from this page does not lessen its importance, but adding it lessens the impact of this page, making it appear even more of a soapbox than it already does. Bassclef 14:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Conspiracy website used as ref

The statement "by carrying out false flag operations" in the intro paragraph is referenced by a conspiracy website. The website is something about how Pearl Harbor was intentionally allowed to be carried out, despite prior knowledge of the pending attack by the US. The last section of the website states:

“ Pearl Harbor ... Operation Northwoods ... September 11

Is it possible that history is repeating itself now? I only raise the question, because there are so many questions that remain unanswered concerning the events of September 11. In the words of philosopher and poet George Santayana,

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

The evidence presented by John Toland suggests that Pearl Harbor was a crisis created by the U.S. government on December 7, 1941 to manipulate public opinion and sway the American people into going to war.

”

"Pearl Harbour: History Whitewashed?". Centre for Research on Globalisation(CRG). 05-03-2002. Retrieved 27-04-2007. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)

Frankly, a conspiracy website does not qualify as an adequate source. The US also never carried "out false flag operations", but only planned them. Planning and implementing are entirely different. I removed the statement and ref. I also changed "perpetrating terrorism against its own citizens" to "planning"...since Northwoods was rejected for obvious reasons. Revert if you like, but please explain. Jumping cheese ^Cont@ct 07:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your edit but I'm not happy with globalresearch.ca being wholly dismissed as a `conspiracy website'. There are many worthwhile and well researched articles there. You might as well dismiss the New York Times as a conspiracy newspaper. After all it supported the outlandish conspiracy theory that Iraq had secret WMD. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 08:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Well...connecting Pearl Harbor, Northwoods, and 9/11 together does sound a bit like a conspiracy theory. Thanxs for the response. Jumping cheese ^Cont@ct 19:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

If you go to the website of the Project for the New American Century, a thinktank in which several important people in and related to the Bush Administration are a part of, they proposed in the late 1990's that a "new Pearl Harbor" would have a favorable effect. This is something that lends some credibility to the the theories around 9-11 that would otherwise be dismissed as baseless. Heavy Metal Cellist^talk_contribs

A little vague there. How would a "new Pearl Harbor" be beneficial during the 1990's?!? Having Canada attack the US or something? Jumping cheese ^Cont@ct 05:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Totally disputed tagline

Have tagged this article as being totally disputed, because as written, it is totally a propaganda piece for cited leftist sources. The factual accuracy of the article is tilting way to the left, with no balance from mainstream sources. Yaf 22:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you try to improve it then? --Guinnog 22:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Your comments are not helpful unless you can be specific. What problem specifically do you see, and what is your proposed solution to address it?Giovanni33 03:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Am going through the sources; for example, the claim of harming US citizens was not covered in the cited source given for it in the lede. The plan being considered was to assassinate Cubans living in the US, which incidentally appears never to have been done. There appears to be a lot of POV pushing, well beyond what the facts of the sources can validate, that permeate this entire article. Yaf 06:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33, can you please discuss edits like this before you made them? Thanxs. Jumping cheese ^Cont@ct 05:46, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind...seems like there was a huge discussion in top of this section. Sorry about that. ;) Jumping cheese ^Cont@ct 05:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

For the record those were not my edits. I simply restored them since I felt the arguments presented for their removal were lacking. The section about these particular accusations needs to be expanded, I think, with some proper qualification about this particular allegation, followed by more than those sources provided. I've held off on retoring this to avoid edit warring, but will definitely be restoring the section pending further discussion above. I'm open to be convinced it doesn't belong, but so far I don't see any valid arguments.Giovanni33 06:32, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed paragraph

The following paragraph was removed:

In 2001, Cuban Ambassador to the UN Bruno Rodríguez Parrilla called for UN General Assembly to address all forms and manifestations of terrorism in every corner of the world, including - without exception - State terrorism. He alleged to the UN General Assembly that 3,478 Cubans have died as a result of aggressions and terrorist acts. The Cuban government also asserted that in the 1990s, a total of 68 acts of terrorism were perpetrated against Cuba.

68.93.143.57 04:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

And the reason for the removal was that the cited source says nothing about the United States being responsible for any of the 3,478 dead Cubans. Please keep the content of the article in line with what the cited sources actually say. It is original research in violation of WP:NOR to assume the United States is automatically responsible for the 3,478 dead Cubans that died from terrorism worldwide when the cited source does not link the United States with any of these deaths. Thank you. Yaf 05:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Yaf, you just posted on my talk page that my edits were "vandalism" please review wikipedia policy before posting irrelevant warnings.

I simply posted this information here which was deleted. I am not advocating that it stay in the article. 68.93.143.57 16:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The cited source for the statement of actions against its own citizens for the United States is not substantianted by the cited source. If there is a source that makes this claim, fine, but it is original research to claim that Cubans are US citizens. Have removed this again. Yaf 17:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with you removing this sourced material. The claim is not that they are US citizens. The claims is that, according to the source, "In Miami, safe shelter was offered to those who funded, planned and carried out terrorist acts with absolute impunity, tolerated by the United States Government." That is the relevent context implicating the US in these acts of terrorism. I'll add that to make this point clear. The other sections you've removed need to be discussed here before you remove them. So, until then I'm restoring it to allow for the discussion. Lets discuss the sections you plan to delete before deleting them. In many cases a good or better source can be found, if the existing one is inadequate. Or, the existing language can be modified to reflect the source. In reverting, I do not oppose some of your minor grammar tweaks, which you can restore (or I will later today).Giovanni33 18:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Have reverted to what the cited sources support. Please read the sources before reverting, as the sources do not support your edits to include "The United States government has also been accused of planning terrorism against its own citizens" among other POV pushing statements. Thank you. Yaf 18:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, discuss first, then remove if there is consensus to do so. As to this point you raise in particular (although you deleted a lot of other stuff in whole), I did look at what the source said, and find it does support the statement. The statement in particular from the source is the plan of, "concocting a “Remember the Maine” incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage."Blowing up a U.S. ship is an act of terror against its own citizens since its a US ship (propery of US citizens).Giovanni33 19:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The reference given, for "The United States government has also been accused of planning terrorism against its own citizens [4] " and fabricating false pretexts." says nothing about the Maine relative to events that occurred in 1962. The cited source does not support the statement in the lede, of the US Government committing terrorism against its own citizens. Where is the reference for the Maine, and how is ancient history from 1898 germane to a modern article on state terrorism in discussing events from 1962? Sinking a ship is not the same as commiting terrorism against American citizens. Yaf 19:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong. Go back to the article and look again. The reference given for the claim is:"Pentagon Proposed Pretexts for Cuba Invasion in 1962", The Nation Security Archives, 04-30-2001. Retrieved on 27-04-2007." The incident captured by the pro-war slogan, "Remembering the Maine" of 1898 is NOT the issue. You misunderstand the statment. The claims is that there was a plan to concoct a new "Remember the Maine' incident by means of a terrorist attack on a US ship which would be blamed on Cuba to spark an invasion IN 1962. And, as I said, blowing up a US ship or other public property belonging to US citizens is an act of terrorism against them. And, this is esp. true given that a US ship would logically have US passengers aboard as the Maine did. In that incident 266 people lost their lives, and since this plan was supposed to be a recreation of that incident, the passages language is accurate per what the source reports.Giovanni33 19:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The source does validate the statements made in the paragraph, so the paragraph should not be removed. This appears to be the general consensus. Yaf, please do not try to take out the paragraph. Heavy Metal Cellist^talk_contribs

So lets make sure I understand what you guys are saying. You are accusing the United States of committing terrorism solely on the basis of one plan of probably hundreds that were considered, for one plan that was never executed, for then assuming US citizen fatalities that never occurred, for a US ship that was never sunk, and for this presupposition you are stating that the US, by considering this plan, but which was never executed, is somehow guilty of terrorism against individuals that happen to be US citizens. I don't see how you can make a valid case for terrorism against US citizens when no terrorism act occured against US citizens. Hundreds if not thousands of plans are always considered by US military planners; consideration of military plans is not considered terrorism by any sources that I have seen. It is a violation of WP:NOT to speculate what might have happened in an alternative history timeline that never occurred, and to then put this statement in the lede of an article on Wikipedia, accusing the United States of committing terrorism. It appears to be POV pushing without any substance, and a violation in citing what the citation actually said. Yaf 19:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

You are creating a strawman fallacy here. The argument isn't an accusation that the US carried out its plan for terrorism against its own citizens, but that it made a plan to committ terrorism against its own citizens as detailed by the source. A plan is just a plan. That is what the source says, and that is what we reported. The claim does not say more than that, for this point. Why do you think stating that such a plan existed is equal to saying that the US actually committed the act of carrying it out? Of course a plan itself does not sink a ship! No one is making that claim, except you. Do you think we should not report on this plan per the source because plans are always being made? If that is your real argument then I think its weak because 1. plans to committ terrorism on one's own citizens are NOT ordinary but extraordinary, and 2., all plans relevent to the subject should be reported on anyway. If there are many other such plans, then by all means, lets list them, or say there are more. Can you tell me what other plans along these lines exist by the US govt?Giovanni33 19:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

No strawmen, here, just a little bright light shining on collection of warts in a very ugly article. It is a sophistry to title an article as "State terrorism by the United States", and then to lead gentle readers astray by stating the United States commits its terrorism by considering plan(s), that are never executed, which kill no US Citizens, and which sink no US ships, but, because of a war college exercise, the United States is somehow then branded "guilty" of committing terrorism on paper, and hence is guilty of committing terrorism in general, ergo sum, supporting the false title of the article itself, pushing the POV of the article even further from reality. This whole article reeks of sophistry and lies, that violate WP:SYN, WP:NOT, and a whole host of other policy violations, contrary to what the cited sources support. No wonder this article keeps coming up for AfD. Plans to commit terrorism on one's own citizens are commonplace among governments, and are valuable in assessing one's weaknesses, assuming one actually wishes to protect one's own citizens. They are very ordinary. Returning to the point at hand, the article is about "State terrorism by the United States." It is not about unexecuted plans that appear to taint the United States through POV pushing. Considering the sinking of a ship, that is never sunk, is not the same as "planning terrorism against its own citizens." Stating "planning terrorism against its own citizens", and putting this in the lede, is just POV pushing at its worst. Yaf 20:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. You are merely repeating the same straw man fallacy, which are based upon fabrications; setting up a straw man that you can knock down is easy, but how about you quote the section instead, and deal with what it really says. If you do this, then you will see the claims are supported by the sources, pure and simple, clear and objective, with nuetral language. Your wanting to suppress these real allegations is what amounts to POV pushing by exclusion. Yes, they are ugly warts on the face of US imperialism, and this article shines a bright light on them. I notice you also like to make a lot of sweeping generalizations (accusations of "lies" etc), however, when you are pressed to list specifics, they fail to support your rhetoric.

Lets look at the actual claims, what we have in the article. It says, "The United States of America has been accused by various governments, groups and individuals[1][2][3] of sponsoring state terrorism by funding, training and harboring terrorists and also for other similar activities which are interpreted as terrorism according to international law and even US definitions." These are all cited and supported in the body of the article. But, it then says another fact, another claim, that is separate from the above. It says:

"The United States government has also been accused of planning terrorism against its own citizens [4] and fabricating false pretexts [4][5]. This is perceived by the claimants as hypocritical since the American government has regularly asserted a public image and agenda of anti-terrorism.[6][7]." This is where you are engaing in sophistry and a straw man. You act as if the examples of plans for terrorism are stated as facts supporting a claim of actual terrorism, when these are two separate and perfectly valid points that are made.

Again, the source, which is NOT war plans/games as you state, suports the claim clearly: "the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS. This document, titled “Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba” was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake “Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,” including “sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),” faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a “Remember the Maine” incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods “may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.” You may not like these allegations against the US govt. but they are real and supported by valid sources.Its not POV to reports on these facts, and it is POV to try to hide them.Giovanni33 20:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposals, though, are precisely war plans/games, as anyone who has either written one or read one would readily attest. They are not the execution of same. If executed, they then become known as the war plans that established the course of history of the xxx war or the xxx incident. Returning to the point at hand. The article is titled "State terrorism by the United States". It is not titled something about proposals that were never carried out, which killed no US Citizens, and which sank no ships. It is sophistry to insert these plans, no matter how corrupt, within the article on "State terrorism by the United States." Using the construct of "The United States government has also been accused of planning terrorism against its own citizens" leads a reader to believe (erroneously) that the terror was unleashed; after all, the article is titled State terrorism by the United States". It is only if the reader actually reads through the myriad sources that the reader (eventually) learns that the US considered a whole host of rather unpalatable horrors, which, SURPRISE, were never executed. Oops. Why was the article entitled "State terrorism by the United States"... Hmmm. Just more POV pushing, I guess. Meanwhile, the average reader will never stay with the article long enough to arrive at the truth of the matter, that the US has not committed any significant amounts of state terrorism, especially not during recent history. It is POV to insert any of the myriad plans, all of which were never executed, to try and taint the United States. On the other hand, were the truth told, it would actually be rather enlightening to read in the article and realize that the US Government actually had the courage of its convictions to do the right thing and did not commit terrorism. But, that would not meet the POV pushing that seems to be getting advocated. Yaf 20:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

So your real argument is not that the sources don't support the claim, etc. Your argument is that because the title of the article, the article can not mention plans of terrorist acts by the US, even if it clearly states them as such, i.e."also accused of plannning..." Well, I disagree. I think mentioning such plans is important, as planning and carrying out are a spectrum. Terrorist make many plans, only some of which are eventually carried out. The fact that they make plans is part and parcel of their terrorist nature. They also point the the nature of the organziation that is one of the biggest international terrorists organizations of the world (my POV) Again, this is my POV, which doesn't matter--as yours doesn't. What matters here is that we report all the facts according to legitimate sources relevant to this article's subject-- and then let the reader decide. I disagree the article misleads the reader in any way , or creates any surprises about "plans" not really being plans but actual occurances. No reasonable person makes such an assumption. If they were actual acts of terror carried that, that would be made very clear, and we would not be under the subtopic sentence of "also planning, etc."Giovanni33 21:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

So you are now advocating thought crimes, i.e., since the US didn't actually commit these acts of terrorism, then it must be guilty of thinking about them, in the course of considering all alternative plans of action, and preparing war plans among a myriad of possible responses, even though the US didn't actually commit state terrorism. Perhaps we should change the article title to Allegations of thought crimes to commit state terrorism by the United States. Your hatred toward the United States is the POV that is getting in the way of making this a factual article. Meanwhile, the cited sources do not support the statement(s) that you propose keeping. If we now address using only legitimate sources, then Granma and other propaganda services of dictatorships should probably not be used at all; they are certainly not considered reliable nor mainstream. Ditto for the leftist newspapers (Green Left Weekly, etc.) with little or no mainstream circulations and reputation. An RfC, executed topic by topic, would take too long, and would likely simply run out of momentum in a matter of weeks, long before all the issues were resolved. Perhaps the best course of action would simply be to delete this whole mess in an AfD, as it doesn't appear salvageable as it currently exists. Since, as you say, "If they were actual acts of terror carried that, that would be made very clear, and we would not be under the subtopic sentence of "also planning, etc." (sic), you are not actually advocating fixing the article to make it factual, but instead are proposing to continue pushing your anti-US POV. For that reason, I think an AfD might be the appropriate course of action. Yaf 21:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Nope, there is no such thing as "thought crimes." There is such a thing as planning to carry out a terrorist attack, which itself is a crime, btw. And, these plans are all the more important considering that terrorist actions have been carried out in practice--not just planned. But, to report on the scopes of the plans adds value to understanding the nature of terrorism by the US. The sources listed are legitimate sources. We do not descriminate based on having a left pov of its authors. If you have conservative sources which dispute these reported facts then you are free to list them and state that such sources dispute these allegations. But you would prefer to delete everything. At least that is clear as you suggest a AfD. Well, you are free to try, but I am sure it will fail with a speedy keep just like it has before as this article and its subject are legitimate. I agree, though, this article can be improved and I will work on it this week, abiding by consensus.Giovanni33 21:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Yaf, please don't make this article a political soapbox. You have added nothing to the article, instead you waste everyones time by deleting referenced sections which you don't personally agree with.

You immediatly start removing sections then claim their has been discussion on it, you also called my edits "vandalism". Please remember WP:BATTLE

You are probbly not famliar with the rich history of this page. It has gone through numerous AfDs and it has survived. Also there is always a couple of editors with agendas of their own, who don't actually add anything to the article, but decide to delete referenced sections they dont personally agree with. Then they tweek the words to match their own POV. You may think that your arguments are novel, but all of your arguments have been argued here before. Always by the same people with the same ultra conservative view points. Please stop disrupting the article. 68.91.90.10 01:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks anon User:68.91.90.10 for this revert. It is only the "tip of the iceberg" though. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 02:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Latest changes by Yaf

I reverted because of NPOV violations. An example is the current paragraphs which reads:

"...of sponsoring state terrorism by funding, training and harboring terrorists and also for other similar activities which are interpreted as terrorism according to international law and even US definitions. The United States government has also been accused of planning terrorism against its own citizens." These statements are supported by the sources, and the article defines these terms according to their usage by the sources.

It is being replaced by this:

"...of sponsoring state terrorism by funding, training, and harboring freedom fighters that some Governments consider terrorists. The United States Government has also been accused of preparing plans of terrorism against its own ships, which were never implemented."

There are several problems with this change. First of all it introduces the concept of "freedom fighters" which is a POV term and is not supported by any source. This article is about terrorism as the term is defined. If you have a source that calls the kind of terrorism the article talks about as "freedom fighters" then you need to supply that for it to be considered. The POV pushing is blatent as after you state this POV as a fact, you then say that "some government" call them terrorists. What are some govternments, which implies that most governments don't regard them as terrorists? That is not only not supported by any source you provide, but its not accurate and its POV pushing. Also, you remove the basis of the defintion by removing "under international law, and US definitions. Why remove that essential piece of information? Lastly, you mention one particular incident of the US planning terrorism against its own citizens, the sinking of ships---but that is just one example given by the source, not the only one. And you change the meaning in doing so.

If you disagree, then at least please get community consensus for the change first before making it again, or other such controverisal major edits affecting the crafting of the current languge. Your minor tweaks, as before, I don't have a problem with.Giovanni33 22:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The reason for the removal of the portion "according to international law and even US definitions." is that I tagged it several days ago as needing a citation. None were provided, and, worse yet, the needing citation tag was removed by you. I simply deleted the uncited POV. On the other hand, if there are items that need to be cited, then by all means, please tag them, rather than doing a wholesale reversion to remove all contributions, to restore it to the original, flawed, state, as you have been insisting on doing. Let's make this a better, balanced article, and not a propaganda piece for dictatorships and communistic fringe governments. Thank you. Yaf 05:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I did not see such a tag, but that is not a convincing reason since the source is clearly provided in the article, which goes in to supporting details and greater depth. Here is a source that rendered a verdict per international law making the US the only state to be found by the international court as guility of terrorism: http://www.gwu.edu/~jaysmith/nicus3.html. The source references the applicable laws that define the governments activities as such. The US law statement is also supported in the article with its own section that is very clear. But, if you felt it needed to be linked to the source at the top as well, then why not do so instead deleting it completely? That doesnt make the article better.Giovanni33 05:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps instead of freedom fighters it could say revolutionaries instead. It is a generally accurate descriptor of what some consider to be a freedom fighter, and it avoids taking a specific POV.--LWF 00:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

If we have a good source that says that, and then it should be presented to the specific cases that the articles discuss. However, the two words mean diferent things and are not synonymous. Since the title and subject of the article is about terrorism, we should not substitute that terminology in the opening by using other terms that carry other meanings. Terrorism has a very specific meaning; it's a tactic, and it's not synonymous with revolution or revolutionaries (although the tactic can and has been employed by all groups). The terrorists that are used as examples of agents or facillitators of state sponored terrorism (esp. of the US), I think, are not generallly regarded as revolutionaries (but reactionaries), but I'm willing to include such alternative descriptions provided its attributed to a proper source, and with the understanding that being a revolutionary does not rule out one also being a terrorist, nor vise-versa: being a revolutionary does not necessarily make one a terrorist. In anycase, all POV's (except real fringe views) should be properly presented with proper weight, wihout taking sides.Giovanni33 00:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Have added s source for Pres. Reagan calling "terrorists" freedom fighters, that provides a cite for using the language of freedom fighters in place of revolutionaries. Freedom fighters is probably a more accurate description, as the groups supported by the US usually represent a faction that is trying to counter a dictatorship or a repressive human rights regime, but which are considered terrorists in these regimes. As there are only such Governments mentioned in the article later (i.e., Cuba, et al) this seems more factually accurate. Yaf 05:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, you have not address the problems I raised above, but you are also not accurate. The US govt. has supported terrorism of factions fighting democratically elected governments, supporting coups against them to install right wing dictatorships. But more to the point, the source doesn't call "terrorists" freedom fighters. What it does do, is simply state that Reagan called the Mujahedin "freedom fighters." So what? Now, if we have a section or sentence in this article that deals with the Mujahedin, then you are free to state that they are viewed by some conservative US politicians, such as Regan, as "freedom fighters." That would be acceptable. However, this is not what you have done, as shown above. Simply citing that Regan called this particular group by that term does not logically follow that one should change the language of the introduction of an article that does not even deal with that subject. This article is about the most powerful State conducting terrorism, i.e. against civilians, directly and indirectly--not about "freedom fighters" fighting against oppressive regimes. So, besides bing a bit off topic, it doesnt belong in the introduction, but only maybe in specifics if you have sources that give this description to those agents that the article labels as terrorists.Giovanni33 05:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The Mujahedin were called terrorists by the governments that were in place at the time that had allied with the Soviets. This is precisely the topic of the article. As for the examples extant in the article at this point in time (e.g., the Governments that are listed later) all are rather well known as being dictatorships and/or communist governments and/or oppressive regimes. Intellectual honesty is all that I am asking for here, to balance the decidedly WP:SYN that is tilting rather to the left as the article still stands. It is still "totallydisputed" worthy at this point, for the later unbalanced content. Yaf 05:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Afganistand and the Mujahedin are not even mentioned int his article. You are making a false jump in logic, applying one concept to another based on a false premise, and this is a true violation of WP:SYN--so even if it were true, has to be rejected. However, the premise itself of your argument--a point you've made several times--that because the only governments mentioned are oppressive, therefore those "terrorist" activities against them are properly deemed "feedom fighters" per the logic of the Regan quote (which itself is an actual and real WP:SYN violation) itself does not stand as even true. The point itself is false. The Sandinista government was democratic, and established democratic elections. They overthrew the Somoza dictatorship which was installed by the US, after the US assasinating the independence leader Sandino earlier. A similar story goes for Guatamala, as it does for the democratically-elected Iranian government of Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh, mentioned by the article. So what are you talking about? Your claim is simply false, and thus your point is not supported by it.Giovanni33 06:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't classify Cuba as being a bastion of liberty, and it makes up the bulk of the later content. Neither would I classify (historically, not necessary currently) the countries of Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Turkey, Vietnam, or Cambodia, all of which are mentioned later in the article. As for the Sandinista government, well that depends on an interpretation of just who was reading the ballots :-) Much the same issue could have been made for Guatamala. As some are fond of pointing out, even Hitler was democratically elected, and the US certainly supported the underground in Europe to counter him. No doubt, these underground forces were all considered terrorists by the German officers charged with suppressing the "freedom fighters" of WW II, as well as by the French Vichy government. Leaving out the balance of "freedom fighter" in the lede is not being intellectually honest in an article as charged as this one. Yaf 06:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The the consistency of your arguments is evolving again. You claimed consistently that, the "Governments that are listed.. are all well known as being dictatorships... repressive human rights regimes...only such Governments mentioned in the article (i.e., Cuba, et al) this seems more factually accurate." However, I point out this is not the case, and therefore, your conclusion should be now be that its therefore "not a factually accurate" description. But, instead your POV pushign comes out even more, when you further stretch logic by saying, "well that depends on an interpretation of just who was reading the ballots." Is this your own personal POV based on your own original research, or are you just making up any excuse you can think of? I know of no such study that disputed the election results of these governments, which were attacked and funded by terrorism stemming from the United States. Reality doesnt fit into your POV, it would seem, so you want to distort the reporting of this article to try to make it fit something that is fundamentally not applicable across the board. Intellectual honesty, indeed! Btw, Hitler did not support elections or the democratic process by any means. I don't think that history lesson is needed here, besides this is all off topic again, and an example of your own OR and SYN violations, which your edits have been based on--even IF they were accurate. Again, the solution is to apply the alternate description to the particular section(s) in question-- if its supported by a good source.Giovanni33 06:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Article needs cleanup

This article has some serious POV issues. I removed this link: Overseas expansion of the United States here, and someone has restored it. By definition, it is a violation of NPOV. This whole article is borderline (and I am giving benefit of the doubt) violating synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. This whole article needs to be cleaned up. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 23:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that link doesn't belong here, and I will remove it, unless anyone has any objection. I'm not sure who restored it. Over seas expansion, US imperialism, is not the same thing as terrorism, although the latter is often used as a tactic of the former.Giovanni33 23:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks like you restored it, along with removing all the other edits that have been made to try and improve this article. The entire article still needs some serious editing to insert balance and to remove the WP:SYN that currently permeates it. Have been trying to make this a better article, but it is hard when POV warriors keep removing all attempts to fix the problems and restoring the original, flawed content. Please assume good faith, in accordance with WP:AGF, rather than deleting all attempts at improving the article. Thank you. Yaf 04:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I removed that link because there was a valid reason for removing it. However, your removals were not valid as explained above. Yes, there needs to be improvement here, howevetr, your edits have been to make the article worse, and violates NPOV. We don't need POV pushing here of any sort. Please review NPOV policies, and stick to claims that sources support. Also, rather than edit waring, please read above which states that major edits that are controversial and opposed, such as yours, need to be discussed here first to gain some kind of consensus. Please do that if you are serious about improving this article.Giovanni33 05:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The edits are entirely valid, and are factual. They are not major edits, either, except perhaps in San Francisco :-) Lets make this a better article, and one that is balanced, and that is not so far out on the left wing political spectrum. Thank you. Yaf 05:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Your major edits are not valid and are a SYN, OR, and POV violation, as explained above. They are also not factual, and can not stand as you are making them. I offered a solution for how to incorporate your POV in a nuetral manner, but if you insist on deleting sourced material and substituting your own OR, then you will be reverted.Giovanni33 17:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I took some time and looked into the edit history on this article, and I noticed that one user took it upon himself to remove the word "Allegations" from the title of the article here. This looks as it was done without consensus and the edit summary described the basis for the change as "weasel wording". There was no discussion prior to the name change at the end of February on the talk page, and an apparent no consensus to perform the move. The article is not NPOV as it is titled now which looks to fail WP:SYNTH. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 23:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Please do change it back. It's horribly POVish the way the title reads now. And "freedom fighters" has been so overused and misapplied that it's nearly worthless as a description. In my mind, there are insurgents (who follow the rules of war) and terrorists (who don't). Dchall1 23:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The title is still terribly POVish and presupposes that the US is guilty of all allegations, as well as of the one "proven" case that is by a court with questionable jurisdiction. Yaf 00:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem as I see it is that this article contains a combinations of allegations of state terrorism, but also state terrorism that is established fact as adjudicated by the international court, so its some of these claims of state terrorism are no longer merely allegations but proven and established dejuro events. I corrected the Syn problem that Yaf keeps inserting. If there are more of such violations, please point them out.Giovanni33 23:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I made a lot of changes, mostly to the introduction. They incorporate elements of both versions that are currently being reverted. Also, I removed the paragraph on who makes allegations and why. It assumes a lot, and doesn't say much that isn't self-evident. Going forward, instead of wholesale reverts, can we work off the article the way it stands now? Thanks --Dchall1 00:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll work with that, and accept the framework of a compromise, which I think can lead to some progress. I appreciate your willingness to compromise. I tweaked your change a bit to included the metion of US defintion as well, since that is an important part of the article, in its section below. Also, the mention of the terrorism plots, I restored, since those are valid references that support its inclusion. I agree to leave your changes about removing who makes the allegations, as that is elaborated on specifically in the article.Giovanni33 01:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Likewise, I can work with that as well. Have started with the current state and cleaned up some of the minor grammar tweaks that kept getting reverted, as well, during the last several days. Surely we can agree on these :-) Yaf 01:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the input from others on the neutrality issues. However, the collection of separate articles here produce an undue weight to sources when combined here to advance a position. They could stand on their own which is why the article is in conflict with WP:SYNTH. At the least I would recommend changing the title back to include allegations as it was prior to February. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 17:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

It might be possible to write a good article on notable notable allegations of state terrorism. As State terrorism by the United States this is an editorial essay. The content reflects this: a selective collection of allegations and factoids chosen to advance a thesis. At a minimum, it should be renamed to 'allegations.' Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Others earlier on expressed concerns on the title. If there are no major objections, I'll correct it to what it was previously. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 19:17, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and did the move. Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:12, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Much appreciated. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 20:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Northwoods

Aside from the debate on whether plans for terrorism should be included in the lede, I have a problem with the Northwoods document. If you read it closely, it really just argues for covert actions and propaganda; only one scenario comes close to terrorism, and that is the proposed "wounding" of Cuban exiles. Even for that plan, the source leaves open the possibility that the victims are willing participants. In fact, most of the scenarios are specific that no Americans or even Cubans be killed in process of the plan. I think we would be hard-pressed to define covert action as terrorism, for that would implicate all states that operate foreign intelligence services as sponsors of state terrorism. This is the reason that I removed the source from my edit. Devious and unethical maybe, but not terrorism. Still, I'll leave it up until I get feedback. Dchall1 03:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Plans for terrorism don't really seem germane for the lede. Of course, if one follows the cited article for the claimed plans of terrorism against citizens, one sees it is about a plan that was never executed for creating a new Maine type event, attacking a US ship in Cuban waters. I don't consider this to be a plan of terrorism against US citizens, as first, it dealt with a plan for attacking a US ship and not harming any US citizens, and second, it was a plan that was never ever executed. It is POV to have this in the lede as a condemnation of the United States, misleading the reader into believing something that is patently not true. Although it is illegal for private citizens to prepare plans that some might consider terrorism, US law is very clear that it is not illegal for US Government agencies and their employees and contractors to prepare precisely such plans. Rather, it is done all the time, often with the intent of being the preparation of contengency plans precisely intended to avoid potential terrorism threats through thought-gaming possible terroristic attack scenarios. (Much the same analogy as it being legal for the U.S. Government to buy any newly-manufactured Class III machine gun, whereas private U.S. citizens can only buy 1986 and earlier machine guns by law. The rules are different for private citizens vs. Government agencies.) It is POV to treat planning as being somehow inherently evil, when it often is done to serve entirely honorable purposes. Yaf 05:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I will have a look at what the source says. I agree covert action is not the same thing as terrorism. But, covert action can certainly entail terrorism. It all depends on what the secret action is. If what you say is true, I'll support taking that out. Just need some time take a close look at the claims and nature of the actions planned.

Now regarding the argument by Yaf re the plan for terrorism, I disagree. The plan to recreate the Maine incident by blowing up a ship is universally regarded as a terrrorist attack. Look at the USS Cole incident. You say that its not because its "only attacking a ship, and not harming any US citizens." How do you know that? The source does not say that. The source says they wanted another 'Maine" incident. Where does one draw from that a conclusion that no citizens were to be harmed? As I pointed out that incident (Maine) involved a ship full of people, and full of people who died. So any plan to recreate any such similar would almost necessarily entail considerable harm. The wording you had, "terrorism against ships," also didn't make sense, since one can not inflict terror on ships. Ships don't have feelings and can't feel fear: pepole do. The object was to incide fear and terror into US citizens by creating the illusion that the US was under attack, and incite a war on such false pretext. So terror attacks are always directed at people, not things. Things are mearly the means to the end. Also, the source reports other plans (not just the Maine incident). For example, creating a "terror campaign in the Miami area , in other Florida cities and even in Washington,” "faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner...",

As to the POV saying this is evil as opposed to "honorable" etc, I agree with you that we should not say either. Some pepole think these terrorist plots as honorable, good, etc. but we need not concern ourselves with taking sides. Also, the issue the legality of planning terrorist attacks is also one we need not entertain. Its not at issue. We can report on the actual terrorist attacks carried about by the US as illegal because we have international law, that says its unlawful. As for just planning them, maybe you are right about it not being illegal for govts to do this. If you want to add that in, supported by a source, then I'm fine with that (in the body of the article), but make sure its specific to this operation in question.Giovanni33 05:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I read the document, and I have to say, its clear to me that its about terrorism, and causing a great deal of harm, if necessary. True, the attitude is not one that cares if harm is done or not, just that terror is acheived. In fact, its clearly states as one of its tactics to "develop a terror campaign." and make it look like the Cuban Govt. was behind the terror in the US. That is their own words, and that alone is enough to validate the relevancy of this source to the subject matter. I note that the proposed "sinking of a boatload of people could be real or simluted", and “ “wounding in instances to be widely publicized.” No where say that those harmed by this "terror campaign" would be voluntary. In addition it lists other activities that all fall under standard acts of terror: “Blow up ammunition inside the base; start fires. Burn aircraft on air base; Lob mortor shells; Capture assult teams; Capture militia;Sabotage ship harbor; Commence large scale military operations.So, I see no problem with this valid source.Giovanni33 06:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

Chomsky and Chossudovsky do not meet Wikipedia's reliability standards. Please see WP:RS.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 14:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course they do. Prof. Chomsky is an academic, scholar, and public intellectual of the highest caliber. The many volumes of his publications on these very subjects speak for themselves. But, if you have some better souces you'd like to add that present the facts under examination, I'd welcome looking at that. So far your POV edits on this article have been rather ridiculous, btw.Giovanni33 17:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Please re-read our policies on reliable sources. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources -- see WP:REDFLAG. Our policies (WP:SPS)also provide that "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher (scholarly or non-scholarly) in a relevant field." The problem here, is that Chomsky is a linguist, not a foreign policy expert, so books he's written about foreign policy are not reliable under the WP:SPS standard. WP:Verifiability requires that "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Further, the same policy provides that "sources of questionable reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight. Sources of questionable reliability should only be used in articles about themselves." Chomsky and Chossudovsky's books are not fact-checked and there is no objective editorial oversight of their work, as there would be for spaded academic works in a particular academic discipline. As a comparison, Chomsky's works are probably subject to such editorial oversight in his field of expertise, which is linguistics, and could be relied upon here as authority for matter discussing linguistics. Lastly, WP:Verifiability provides that: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material." So, the burden is on you to prove that Chomsky and Chossudovsky's works meet our policy requirements, not me. Simply put, they don't meet our standards.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 20:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, yes. Devonshire. Of course you'd attempt such a blatantly weak attack on this page's sources. Your dismissals of the facts presented here are well documented, as well as your insistence that these widely available international sources are all somehow politically skewed. Each time an AfD has been held on this page you have vociferously insisted that there is no justification for keeping it. This bit about Chomksy not qualifying as a valid source is transparent and weak. Chomsky is a highly respected academic whose books are all sourced from publicly available documents, typically the NYT, WaPo, UN, US State Department, and the foreign services of foreign governments like Britain, Nicaragua, and Cuba, among others. The burden of evidence is upon you to demonstrate for us why Chomsky is an improper source; moreover, you should not be doing it on this page, but on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky page, where it states:

He is generally considered to be a key intellectual figure within the left wing of United States politics. Chomsky is widely known for his political activism, and for his criticism of the foreign policy of the United States and other governments.

If you can get that statement deleted from that article then the editors of this page shall consider whether or not we should delete the Chomsky sources from this one. Otherwise, there is simply no reason to consider your assertion, here. Googling "Noam Chomsky" returns such a huge array of hits from top-tier sources all over the planet that there is just no argument you can advance to justify this latest suggestion of yours. Stone put to sky 09:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The same goes for Chossudovsky:

Chossudovsky is past president of the Canadian Association of Latin American and Caribbean Studies. He is a member of research organisations that include the Committee on Monetary and Economic Reform (COMER), the Geopolitical Drug Watch (OGD) (Paris)and the International People's Health Council (IPHC).

Clearly, this is a widely published and active Academic who is well-informed about the international activities of the U.S. Chossudovsky has already published books critical of the U.S. "War on Terrorism", and the sources provided there are not controversial. His academic and public appointments and publishing status are already weighty qualifications in and of themselves. Unless you can provide some sort of clear justification for excising his work from the article, then the WP you cite provide e no justification for removing it. Stone put to sky 09:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Finally, Chossudovsky and Chomsky's books most certainly are fact-checked. More rigorously, in fact, than most major media outlets like the WaPo or NYT. Unless you can provide demonstrable evidence otherwise, there is no reason in the world we should believe your assertions in this regard. Stone put to sky 09:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

You yammer on and on, but you still didn't address the Wikipedia policy issues I've described above.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 01:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, i have addressed them. As has Giovanni. As my post points out, your challenges against Chomsky do not meet WP:CON. The consensus on Wikipedia is clearly that Chomsky and Chossudovsky qualify as reliable sources. As i have pointed out, the place for this debate is not here, but instead on their respective wiki-pages, which clearly state that these two men are qualified academics who are active in addressing issues under which this page clearly falls.

I would also like to point out that your last comment violates WP:CIV. I would appreciate it if, in the future, you would endeavor to abide by the guidelines. Stone put to sky 02:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? Chomsky is a professor of linguistics, not foreign policy. He's an expert in linguistics. Quit pretending otherwise.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 06:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be badly misinformed. I suggest you do a bit more research. My suggestion would be to start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_chomsky.

Also, i would like to point out that your last post violates WP:AGF. This is the second time today that i have felt the need to remind you of wiki guidelines. Please, reconsider your current rhetorical habits.Stone put to sky 06:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, he's a Professor in the Department of Linguistics -- he can be relied upon as a reputable source for matters pertaining to Linguistics. With respect to other areas, he's merely a commentator, not an expert, and can't be relied upon as an objective source. In fact, he's a partisan, not an academic, in areas outside of Linguistics. That's like saying we should rely upon the head of the RNC for factual data about WMDs in Iraq -- can't do it under WP:RS and WP:Verify standards.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 15:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Move protected

... per request on WP:RPP. Can folks please agree on a name for the article as repeatedly moving it about creates a lot of work. I'm not endorsing the current title or anything, just that you should agree here before moving again - Alison ☺ 15:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The last move really screwed up the article links again...Gurch and I already went and fioxed most of the double redirects and then obvious sockpuppet Divestment (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) moved the page again. The International Court of Justice determination has been interpreted by the radical left to be an indictment that the U.S. did act out terror...it hasn't been recognized by any other legislative body that isn't already hostile to the U.S. and are themselves less than credible sources. This entire article is a POV pushers dream come true and I recommend it be deleted entirely if it can't accurately and neutrally discuss the subject.--MONGO 20:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Was there a consensus to move this page from Allegations of... to State terrorism by...? Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Ugh! Mess, and no easy solution in sight here. The prot. is still valid in this case as there's nothing less productive than a movewar. Frankly, AfD beckons at this stage ... - Alison ☺ 20:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, protection was the right call. I knew there had been another name change when I saw my watchlist full of Gurch fixing the double redirects yet again (for which, thanks.) Whether or not we can have a neutral, encyclopedic article that meets our standards is an open question. Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:RM, guys. While naturally some nut jobs will try to opppose this common sense move, it's the best hope. The Evil Spartan 00:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm ok with the name change move, although I see both point of views. I tend to prefer without the "allegations" since in the case of the US, its more than allegations, but I won't edit war over the change, but go with consensus on it, since the article is mostly about allegations--and in keeping with other States articles on the subject. We perhaps needs a clearer consensus on the question. The part that is not mere allegation but legal and established fact per court of law, though, should not be in question. In this connection, I must take issue with the statment Mongo made about it, in regards to the International Court being hostile to the US, and that this decision is only an interpretation by the "radical left." Likewise by Yaf who wanted to add a qualifer about its juristiction over the US. Comments along these lines are simply not true.

To go over a few facts about the World Court in the Hague, it is the judicial organ of the United Nations, as established in 1945 by the UN Charter, of which the US is a charter member, and has global jurisdiction. As stated in Article 93 of the UN Charter, all 192 UN members are automatically parties to the Court's statute. In fact, the United States had signed the treaty accepting the Court's decision as binding, and only withdrew from compulsory jurisdiction in 1986 (meaning that it now accepts the court's jurisdiction on only a case-to-case basis.) But the question of juristiction, is not a matter of legal dispute: the court had the legal right to assume at that time in respect to this issue as is clear by article 36, paragraph 6, of the Statute of the Court provides that "in the event of a dispute as to whether the Court has jurisdiction, the matter shall be settled by the decision of the Court.” The court did settle that question ruling that it did have it. And, in 1986 the United Nations General Assembly passed resolution upholding the courts decision and the fine that the U.S. was bound to pay, legally. I note that only El Salvador, which also had disputes with Nicaragua, and Israel voted with the U.S. See: http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/41/a41r031.htm

As well, article 94 establishes the duty of all UN members to comply with decisions of the Court involving them. If parties do not comply, the issue can be taken before the Security Council for enforcement action. The only reason why there was no enforcement was because the judgment was against one of the permanent five members of the Security Council, so of course the criminal entity itself would simply veto the enformement. This is what occurred when Nicaragua brought the issue of the U.S.'s non-compliance with the Court's decision before the Security Council. But because there was no method of forcing the rogue state to comply, doesnt change the established legal findings of this legitimate and recognized legal body, of which the US upon signing a treating becoming a member of the UN, per the US constitution, makes it also the "law of the land" in the US.

There is nothing wrong with this article's subject matter. Its appropriate to have an article on this subject, just as we have for other States involved in State Terrorism, and while there is room for expansion and improvement, I see no basis for AfD. This can be a neutral and encyclopedic article, even if it does report on an issue that brings up strong POV and emotions for the issues it reports on, esp. for those who have any inklings of US nationalism. Giovanni33 00:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

This seems pretty crazy. The article cites numerous, undisputed facts about the United States' activities abroad. These activities clearly involve, in each case, acts of violence that the United States either condoned, initiated, or enabled through direct or indirect support of the instigators. Thus, these acts clearly meet every definition of Terrorism that exists -- and there are many legal definitions out there. I, for one, provided the article with a great load of many links that demonstrated this beyond any shadow of a doubt, but they were unfortunately deleted. I allowed these deletions to take place in the interest of moving the article forward, but if MONGO and Harrison continue to insist that these facts about United States foreign policy are somehow in dispute because they somehow do not qualify as "terrorism", then i will be quite happy to re-instate them.

Is it necessary for us to have this discussion once again? The article has already withstood many, many AfD's. Moreover, those nominations consistently come from and are supported by the same few people. Their arguments have been rebutted time and again. There is a large elephant blocking the door to this room, and it's doing its best to quash well-researched facts and uncontroversial commentary from being seen. That is simply not in the spirit of Wikipedia.

Once again, i will request -- as i can do nothing else -- that if Harrison, MONGO, Devonshire and "the others" do not like what they see on this page, then might they kindly add content to it, to express counter-balancing opinions -- rather than trying to delete what are already well-established facts and commentary that have been agreed upon by a wide array of editors and participants?

There is no justification for changing the title to "Allegations....". So long as "terrorism" is an internationally defined legal term -- and, however weakly, it currently is -- then the usage of this term relative to widely established facts will remain uncontroversial, objective, and NPOV. Stone put to sky 09:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Just so you know, outside of the USA it is widely recognised the US funded terrorism in South America and Afghanistan. Do not solely rely upon American government sources. It's a similar situation as the one with the Armenian genocide. The alleged perpetrators strongly deny it, and most Turks believe their government, even though the genocide is widely recognised in almost all other countries. I live in France which is hardly a hostile country to the US and I did learn about State terrorism by the US at school. Other subjects like the massacre of Algerians in Paris by Papon (and why he was still head of the police after having sent thousands of Jews to concentration camps), the collaboration of the French with the Nazis etc... are overlooked, or not included in the curriculum. I think for a neutral point of view on this article, it is important, to get sources from other countries aside from the USA. I know it is always hard for people to believe that their government may have done something bad and be hiding it, but unfortunately all countries do. Please don't censor wikipedia, it is an unique opportunity for people to read about facts that are hidden to the population of their own country. And remember when you hear about atrocities and crimes committed by foreign countries that your own country is absolutely no better, this goes no matter what your nationality is. With internet it is possible to get sources from all around the world, so why not use them? Jackaranga 09:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Good points. I support exanding this article with more international sources provided they meet WP's standards for reliability and verification. I can think of three obvious cases of acts of terrorism by the US, which this article does not mention yet: genocide against the Native Americans (which incorporated many instances of state terrorism), the dropping of atomic bombs on Japan (argued above, and supported by many valid sources but despite it being part of the article originally has been removed), and the sanctions against Iraq (which I can provide sources for and argue the point).Giovanni33 17:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

of course the americans deny thier use of terrorism, just as they deny thier use of cultural genocide against the native populace, why would anyone admit to that? very very few natzis admitted to the extermination of jewish and others in the camps until they were forced to look it in the eye.Charred Feathers 10:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Stone put to Sky and Jackaranga, if you are sittig on additional documenation that show US terrorism, please add it. Same for Giovanni33, why not let us see your facts and your sources for the one or more of the three examples you provide. Stone, your explanation of the US acceptance of the jurisdiction of the World Court of Justice is quite clear and more than sufficient. But in our educational system, basic civics and facts are often not taught in US high schools. One can graduate college majoring in history and never learn about the binding effect on the US of the UN Charter or the World Court. Americans often think of the UN Sec Council as an instrument to be used by the US government when desirable, but are typically woefully ignorant of the obligations undertaken by the US in ratifying the UN Charter, for example.--NYCJosh 22:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd love to add more to the article, but frankly i don't have the time right now to enter into the weeks and weeks of debate it would require to muscle past the many vandals (a few of whom masquerade as legitimate editors, apparently) who seek to deface this page. I'll support what i can, as i can.

And thank you for the compliment, but i don't think the part about the World Court wasn't written by me.

Finally, i'm sure Giovanni will be happy to provide his sources -- and there are quite a few more historical sources, as well, back in Central America during the 1800's, or the Mexico-US border even up until 80 years ago -- but resolving the current impasse is rather important, don't you think? Stone put to sky 02:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

What are the facts?

Seeing the debate here I am reminded of similar non-discussions I had. Let's focus on the important things.

1 Are the facts in dispute? In other words, is anybody denying US involvement in overthrowing democratically elected Governments, terrorist attacks against Russians in Afghanistan, et cetera? Regarding OBL, because I know somebody is going to introduce this logical fallacy, is there any reason to claim that when he was supported by the US he was a freedom fighter while today he is a terrorist? More to the point: when did he become a terrorist and why, since his actions have not changed (only his target)?

2 The debate seems to be: what is the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. Clearly, the entities are difficult to seperate. My view on the matter is that any hostile act by the loser of a conflict is terrorism, while any hostile act by the winner is counterinsurgency/anti-terrorism/freedomfighting/liberating, et cetera. Note the perspective! For some reason people adhere to the notion that the US by definition is incapable of terrorist activity. Sounds like the infamous "when the President does it it is not illegal."

3 Regarding the sources I would like to stress the importance of not inventing interpretations. Having had numerous debates on this I prepared some pertinent citations from policy so people are reminded of policy as opposed to their opinion.Regarding wikipedia policy on the use of sources:

• OR Original research refers to material that is not attributable to a reliable, published source. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, ideas, statements, and neologisms; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position. Material added to articles must be directly and explicitly supported by the cited sources.

• NPOV The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.

• Controversy An article about a controversial person or group should accurately describe their views, no matter how misguided or repugnant. Remember to ask the question, "How can this controversy best be described?" It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all comers; it is our job to be fair to all sides of a controversy.

• Scholars Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world. Items that fit this criterion are usually considered reliable.

• Experts of law When discussing legal texts, it is more reliable to quote from the text, appropriately qualified jurists or textbooks than from newspaper reporting.

• Self-published When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications.

• Opinion Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone.

• Opinion from reputable source we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves.

• Identify opinion But it is not enough, to express the Wikipedia non-bias policy, just to say that we should state facts and not opinions. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.

• Biased source The websites, print media, and other publications of political parties, companies, organizations and religious groups should be treated with caution, since they may be used to advance particular political, corporate, institutional or religious viewpoints. Of course such political, corporate, institutional or religious affiliation is not in itself a reason to exclude a source.

• Attribute bias When characterizing people, events, or actions, assertions should likewise be attributed to an acceptable source. A regular news story from a mainstream media organization is best, but don't rely on the journalist to report the bias of its sources accurately. Alternatively, a text from conservative or liberal alternative media or a focus group may be cited, provided the source is accurately labeled in neutral terms.

• Biased statement Sometimes, a potentially biased statement can be reframed into an NPOV statement by attributing or substantiating it.

4 With the above in mind I am interested to hear what sentence in the article is incorrect.

5 And, do I understand correctly that some allege international law does not apply to the US?

6Please, remember this is not about right or wrong, left or right, US or anti-American. Wikipedia is about verifiable facts. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 11:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for that intelligent comment. I would just like to add, especially after having read a comment further up, that the American Population doesn't necessarily support everything their government did (especially if only certain members of the government did something illegally), much like how most of the German population does not support what the Nazi regime did, even if they elected it democratically. Also it's important the article does not look like it was written as an attack on Americans, especially as at the moment many seem to think they are disliked in the world, which is probably largely untrue, as American culture is still very widely circulated. This may be why some are attempting to censure or demean the information, in particular I'm thinking of some people who are constantly adding phrases such "allegations have been made", so that next time the page is put on AfD, they can state it is an allegations page. It is ashame some people can't see further than what their government is telling them, but this is unlikely to ever change, as it happens all over the world all the time. In France for example many do still not believe the stories about Algerians being made to copulate with dogs or drink petrol, even though such actions are widely recognised now. I think patience is the key. And I advise anyone who does not read the article with an open mind, to not attempt to change it. This should go for both sides, if you can't be bothered to try and understand the opposite opinion, then do not try to push your own. --Jackaranga 13:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

If a notable person says something was an act of state terrorism by the US, we have an allegation of state terrorism by the United States. If someone says the US did X, and someone else says something very much like X was an act of terrorism, and if we then list X as an act of state terrorism by the US, then we have original research. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, however, if legal decision on the matter then its no longer merely an allegation its an established dejuro fact. The Nazi's committed war crimes--that is a fact. Its not simply "allegations of war crimes." If the US did X, and we have experts who we relay on to provide a definition for X, then we can say it, and that is not OR. The act can be match up to the definition without any interpretations. For example, we have a definition of violence. Then, its established that I came up to you and punched you in the face, and that is an etablished fact. Well, then we can say I committed an act of violence. Is it OR to say that? No. Now, if you have sources that wish to interpret the action as not violence, then we can report on that (provided the source meets the standards of WP). But if an action is established with verifabible facts that meet the established and accepted defintion, then it fits in this article about the subject (again, provided sources are provided to support the claims--which this article does).Giovanni33 17:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Really. and if Tom Harrison wants to use this standard, than I hope he wants to use it to all references to terrorism in wikipedia, and not just those concerning the US. If i say the US made war, and someone else says something very much like X was a war, then we list X as a war, is it OR? Murderbike 18:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33, your example reminds me of the one at Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, right after it says "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article." Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Understood, but we do have reliable sources that has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article. In connection with the atomic bombing of Japan, for instance, I cited many valid published sources above, that makes this argument. Do I take it then, that you will accept its addition as a section? Likewise with the argument that the sanctions against Iraq were terrorism, and the treatment of the Native Americans?Giovanni33 18:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

If you want to record that Chomsky said the Iraq sanctions were an act of state terrorism by the US, go ahead. If you want to say they were an act of state terrorism and cite Chomsky in support, that is problematic. If you want to say the US killed civilians in Dresden (History Book, 1995); that there was a cafe in Dresden (Baedeker); that Hamas firebombed a cafe in Tel Aviv (per BBC); that Hamas is a terrorist organization (Washington Post); therefore the US committed state terrorism by friebombing Dresden - that would be original research. Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it is utterly unnecessary to qualify a sourced fact from a book authored by Horowitz with a "Horowitz said". That is the entire purpose of footnotes. If a sourced fact occurs within a reliably sourced book, then it is adequate to simply state the fact and reference it with a footnote.

There is no justification for tagging such statements in advance with qualifiers like "Chomsky said", "The left wing said", or "The government said" unless the fact presented is being challenged as untrue, invented, or otherwise false. In the case of the facts presented here, nobody is challenging that they didn't occur, nor that they weren't committed by the U.S. Thus there is no reason to tag them with qualifiers like you are suggesting.

No doubt, Harrison, you feel that such facts and sources should not be allowed to stand unchallenged and unqualified. We have no problem with that. The proper response is not to insinuate rhetoric into the article that undermines established facts, but instead to present a counter-interpretation of those same facts to demonstrate that there is a competing and equally valid ethic at work.Stone put to sky 03:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Ugh, you're running in unneccesary circles. It is really easy to use the US gov't's own definition of terrorism, apply it to known actions (treatment of natives, Dresden, Iraq sanctions, etc.), and *bling*! have acts of state terrorism, much the way we can use the dictionary's def of an apple, apply it to the fruit of an apple tree, and have an apple! Murderbike 19:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Basically, i agree with you. In cases where the U.S. clearly violates its own legal definitions, there should be no more discussion: said activity is a terrorist act.

However, with this topic it's not always that easy. The U.S.Gov'ts definition is a legal definition. Legal definitions are typically conservative -- in other words, usually (PATRIOT act and Bush's Signing Statements excluded, of course) laws are based on a clear public consensus of what is and is not condemnable, and as a consequence of that clarity many widely condemned actions nevertheless fall into a poorly enforced "grey area". The idea of State Terrorism is not new, nor is it controversial. But even today there are many acts which fall ouside the purview of all accepted legal definitions -- even in some cases that have an overwhelming public consensus.

To go back to Harrison's contention, above: i would be very surprised if there were any widely accepted legal sources that currently classify the 10 years of sanctions against Iraq as "State Terrorism". There are, however, many people -- among them secular, religious, governmental, academic, and charity figures and groups -- who do consider them so. These opinions are in no way negligible or irrelevant to this article; nevertheless, they fall well outside the purview of all legal definitions currently available. In order to have a properly informed encyclopedia entry it is necessary to include them.

Further, i'll add that in such instances where widely accepted definitions arrive at different conclusions i have no problem with tagging the opinions with a qualifying phrase. In fact, i have advocated from the very beginning that the editors of this article reach a general consensus on the political (legal), military (tactical), and ethical definitions of terrorism, moving on from there to qualify each assertion with the appropriate viewpoint. Unfortunately, that process made it obtrusively apparent that several editors here believe that any definition of "terrorism" can only imply "Activities Conducted Only by Enemies of the United States, Great Britain and Israel", and so the effort was stymied. Stone put to sky 03:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe that using the official US definition for terrorism is the one that is accepted by consensus on this article. The US Code for defining an "act of terrorism" is an activity that -- (A) involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life that is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; and (B) appears to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping.

Two good reasons for accepting and applying this definition (US offical definitions) are:(1) they are reasonable and close to common usage, and (2) they are appropriate, because the government that offers these definitions cannot claim that it is exempt from their consequences. I know there was some controversy never the less with actually applying this definition in a real world conditions consistently, i.e. to both "enemies" and ones own actoins (the US actions), because when done so it was easily recognized that an immediate consequence is that the US is a leading terrorist state. But, this is the correct thing to do, as a double stanard is non-tenable.Giovanni33 05:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Heh...Dresden was during wartime, so it is not a Peacetime Equivalent of War Crime [5]. The Iraq Sanctions were UN resolutions, Iraq violated vitually everyone of them. The Internatioanl Court of Justice claimed in Nicaragua v. United States that the U.S. had been involved in "unlawful use of force", not terrorism, which is the radical left's opinion...there is a big difference. Article 94 of the International Court of Justice has no enforcement ability, sort of like the U.S. Supreme Court, and instead relys on the UN Security Council to uphold the enforcement of their determinations. In the case of Nicaragua v. United States, Nicaragua was unsuccessful in getting the Courts determination that the U.S. pay war reparations since the Security Council will almost always veto any action against one of its five permanent members. The International Court of Justice also believes it does not usually have the jurisdictional right to hear cases involving the use of force..this is why the U.S. did not recognize the finds of the court. If the naming of this article is going to remain as it is, then we need to eliminate the POV from this article and keep only what is here inn regards to Nicaragua v. United States...but, hey, lookie...we already have an article on that.--MONGO 06:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

MONGO has a point, Giovanni. If we restrict ourselves to only legal definitions, then the sanctions against Iraq, the wars of genocide committed against the native American tribes, and the bombing of Hiroshima cannot possibly qualify. In the first case, the sanctions were legally obtained and processed. In the second, there were no laws regarding terrorism or genocide in place at the time. In the last, the instance took place during wartime, as an act of war, and so also does not qualify.

With that qualification acknowledged, however, we should not feel constrained to exclude them from the article. Certainly, the Japanese consider the bombing of Hiroshima to be an act of state terrorism, and the last twenty years of research into the decision to bomb supports their view in a rather unequivocal manner. Likewise, we can easily say that many of the actions carried out against the native American tribes were terrorist in nature based both upon the means by which the U.S. violated virtually all of its treaties with them as well as by describing the military tactics and social attitudes of the time.

At one time i scrounged up multiple legal sources that state unequivocally that the legal concept of "terrorism" is still evolving, and it is an easy enough thing to find historical tracts that used the word "terrorism" long before there was a legal definition of the idea. The use of terror as a military tactic -- and the condemnation of such by the public -- is an ancient and well-documented dilemma. Finally, most of the legal posturing around the word "terrorism" has been affected by the United States and its allies. On the basis of those facts, there is no justification for limiting this article to the evaluation of legal criteria alone. Stone put to sky 06:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

These are good and convincing points. Thanks.Giovanni33 06:50, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely with Tom and MONGO here. Saying the ICJ found the US "guilty" of "state terrorism" is the purest form of original research because it involves an unjustified equivalence between the term "unlawful use of force" (which was what the ICJ apparently found the US guilty of) and the term "state sponsored terrorism". Thus I have removed this from the lead. - Merzbow 07:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Well not so fast. We should come to some consensus before instigating another edit war. But, instead of reverting, I made the change which should address your main concern. It now reads:

"The United States of America has been accused[1][2][3] and found guilty by the International Court of Justice of unlawful use of force by funding, training, and harboring individuals whose activities have been interpreted by scholars as state terrorism according to international law and US definitions."Giovanni33 07:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

That's still OR, because by deciding that the "unlawful use of force" guilty verdict should be placed in the lead right next to actual accusations of terrorism you are de-facto equating it to a verdict of terrorism. I dispute any attempt to equate the two, and if the ICJ had meant to find the US guilty of terrorism, they would have said so. - Merzbow 07:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

You may dispute equating the two, but its not OR, and perefectly valid. If you review Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, we are not commiting the error of: "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article." Because have reliable sources that has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article, it stands as acceptable. You may not agree with that perspective, and you are free to counter it by reporting another valid source that dispute it, however, all sources I've seen clearly identifies this "unlawful use of force" as in fact fitting with all accepted definitions of state sponorsed terrorism.Giovanni33 07:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It's poisoning the well. Let's assume that somebody is equating the ICJ's verdict with a verdict of terrorism. (As an aside, you have as yet pointed to no cites that show somebody doing this, but I will assume that you will quickly remedy this in talk). What that allows you to do is write "Mr. Smith claims that the ICJ's verdict of unlawful use of force means that the US has been found guilty of state terrorism". It doesn't allow you to lift out a specific fact from Smith's claim - the ICJ verdict of unlawful use of force - and place it in the lead directly implying that Smith's claim of equivalence is true. It's like I go out tomorrow and assault somebody on the street. The court convicts me of "unlawful use of force". However, some newspaper columnist claims that I'm now a terrorist. Then somebody opens up the Wikipedia article on Terrorism and adds, to the lead, a statement that "Merzbow was convicted of unlawful use of force". Quite obviously, this is directly implying that the columnist's opinion is true. - Merzbow 08:05, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Clearly wp:or. Dman727 07:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Can we agree to at least hold off on making these contested changes and allow for some consensus about them first? Or else the article will just end up getting protected.Giovanni33 07:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm out of reverts for now, so I can't restore the proper text. But, I hope someone does because currently the text that your insisting to, makes no sense from even a gramatical point of view. It reads: "The United States of America has been accused[1][2][3] by funding, training, and harboring individuals whose activities have been interpreted by scholars as state sponsored terrorism according to international law and US definitions." How can a state by accused by an activity such as funding, etc?Giovanni33 08:00, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Typo has been fixed. And please bear in mind that 3RR does not entitle you to 3 reverts per day (and fixing this typo would not have been a revert anyways). - Merzbow 08:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

For some reason people get distracted by legalities and other stuff. Let's focus on what this is about. Can we establish the US has committed or supported terrorist acts?

1. Does anybody deny Operation Condor was state terrorism?
2. Does anybody deny OBL is a terrorist?
3. Does anybody deny the US sponsored, supported, aided, et cetera both OC and OBL?

If everybody accepts these as facts it is difficult to understand the objection to saying the US is involved in terrorism. Of course people cry OR. But they fail to understand OR is not meant to remove common sense from editing. Example: a source says four legged animals are called quadrupeds, another source says dogs have four legs. Suppose we want to write dogs are quadrupeds that is totally acceptable and does not violate OR. To object to that is being overly strict and ignores the fact that logic dictates that dogs are quadrupeds. Just like objecting to replacing 4/5 of voters with the majority of voters. Even though it does not say majority but common sense tells us that 4/5 is a majorty. Objecting to such interpretations is beyond my comprehension.

As to Dresden, maybe it does not qualify as terrorism, but it certainly is a war crime. For obvious reasons those responsible were never placed before a court of law. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 10:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Many people just can't accept their country has committed acts of terrorism, it's the same everywhere, look at the Turks, everyone knows Turkey committed genocide against the Armenians, yet most still deny it. Even in Paris where I live there have been demonstrations by Turkish people condemning the fact the French Parliament gave official recognition to the genocide. Yet in all school history books in France, and loads of publications there are huge amounts of proof, but still Turks won't believe it. It's just how it is, some people can't be convinced, they have a mental block, the more you accuse them, the more they will enter into denial, so giving more and more sources won't convince the Americans who disagree with this article. Jackaranga 11:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

You are free to cite the opinions of reliable sources who claim the US supports terrorism. You are not allowed to draw inductive conclusions based on your "common sense", which as many editors have pointed out is not in fact so common; that is the definition of OR. - Merzbow 17:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a simple question: was the US involved in Operation Condor which was state terrorism? Second, OR is about preventing advocating one interpretation when multiple are available. It is impossible to advance another interpretaion of the quadruped example, so in that case OR is not applicable. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 18:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

And to whoever used that sockpuppet last night (whose history contains no prior edits), I HIGHLY suggest you refrain from doing so in the future. - Merzbow 17:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Mr Merzbow, you are in blatant violation of WP:AGF ("whoever used that sockpuppet") and WP:CIVILITY ("I HIGHLY suggest you refrain from doing so"). I suggest that you take a break from editing until you can approach this issue with a cooler, more civil and even-minded head. Stone put to sky 18:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)