Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova/Workshop

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators may edit, for voting.

Motions and requests by the parties

Move to add parties

1) Request User:Giano_II be added to list of parties.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I don't see that this case has anything to do with Giano. Paul August ☎ 06:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

If this makes me a party as well, then I consent. Mercury 04:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Give the arbitrators some credit. This isn't helping. El_C 04:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

That has nothing to do with the amount of credit I give the arbitrators. Your comment was not helping. Mercury 04:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

2) Request User:SlimVirgin be added to list of parties.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I don't see that this case has anything to do with SlimVirgin. Paul August ☎ 06:24, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

SlimVirgin is the administrator of the CyberStalking email list, hosted on Wikia servers(?), that is a key piece of evidence in this case. Cla68 (talk) 06:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Further comment...if there are any ArbCom members on that list, and they don't willingly come forward and recuse themselves, then SlimVirgin would know who they are. Cla68 (talk) 06:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

You can't subpoena people on Wikipedia. -- Ned Scott 06:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't see that there is any reason to add SlimVirgin to this case. I suggest that Cla68 take a gander at Proposed Principle #1...already commented on by three arbitrators.--MONGO (talk) 08:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

That SV was owner of that list is just a historical accident, she was the original person who raised concerns about inability to manage harassment in the current climate. Ownership has now been transferred. The lead in setting the agenda for that list was and remains Jimbo. Guy (Help!) 09:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

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Proposed temporary injunctions

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Questions to the parties

Question to Durova from Kwsn

Q. Other than to not reveal the "methods of investigation", was there any other reason why you didn't post the email? Kwsn (Ni!) 19:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. When I first found out that I had been wrong about !! I received a hint that he had changed usernames for privacy reasons. The editor himself confirmed that some time later when we made contact. I was, of course, deeply ashamed of the mistake. And sorry for it. What had happened (and I'll be posting more about this elsewhere, so be patient please) was that I hadn't anticipated a particular scenario when I drew up the method. It was based on observations that had held consistent in previous cases and I was coming off a string of successes, so I got sloppy and overconfident. The method could have been refined, correlated with firmer evidence, and probably become useful. It was the product of months of work and that work got gutted by some people who acted in haste and anger. This is the result of sending material to trusted Wikipedians: eventually one of them can't be trusted. I wish every person who reads these words and doubts them would head over to WikiProject wrestling and undo JB196 damage to ten articles before deciding quite how wrong I was. I'll give a barnstar to anyone who does that and provides diffs. Now, pretty much on principle, I don't want that report on Wikipedia because it was obtained and distributed by deception and coercion. Durova^Charge! 08:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

How do you know that your prior results with the report are successful? The report came off to everyone else as having shoddy techniques that do absolutely nothing to establish anyone's guilt of anything, merely establish a failure to assume good faith on the part of the sleuths, and a BITE-y view of worthwhile contributors. In fact, your techniques can be summarized like this: "Any editor who uses edit summaries, does DYKs, and contributes in beneficial ways to Wikipedia is highly suspicious". How is a good method of investigation? It stands to reason that you obviously would not want that report on Wikipedia because it calls into question the complete and utter lack of worth in determining whether someone is a potential hidden troll. It seems to me that you are refusing to acknowledge that what you call "people who acted in haste and anger" are people who are very disturbed and shocked by your actions, and yet other than a half hearted apology, and a vague statement that you will stand for recall, you don't seem ready to admit the full extent of your error.⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 08:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Question to Durova from Wikidemo

I have seen Durova's efforts being successful, and indispensable. She halted an administrator's attempt to disrupt an ArbCom hearing via sockpuppets, sparing the project a lot of disruption. If she was shooting from the hip there she was quite a sure shot. See generally Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eyrian/Evidence. With that as a background, a question for Durova: in your estimation how many times have you gotten it right when you blocked an account for sockpuppetry or other faking? In how many of those cases did your disputed evidence-gathering techniques play a role? How many times did you get it wrong? In how many cases was that due to a faulty evidentiary conclusion (as opposed to clicking the wrong button or some other mistake)? A list of examples would be useful. I'm trying to get a sense of the magnitude of the error rate. Wikidemo (talk) 09:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Question to Durova from Random832

(Spoiler warning: I have seen the e-mail, so has probably anyone else who cares to, and my questions make reference to its content.)

Q. Do you feel that the fact that my second edit had an edit summary, and I was using section headers, links, tables, etc, within the first dozen or so, mean I should be a suspect? Or was wikimarkup (which hasn't substantially changed) somehow easier for newbies to learn in 2004 than it is now?—Random832 04:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

It would mean one of two things: either you knew wikis and had some coding skills or you had a previous account. The early monobook edits vs. some other things you took longer to try lead me toward the former conclusion. My antenna would have been raised a little by the particular edit you mention, but unless it correlated with several other things I wouldn't have placed much weight in it. Durova^Charge! 09:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Q. Do you think there are certain opinions that cannot be legitimately held by a user acting in good faith? I'm asking because you used !!'s positions in various debates to paint him as "helping the team". —Random832 04:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Heh, good call on my hubris in using that example as a case study. Scold me good. Yet you've also posed an excellent question in any context. On one level I've seen many examples. They happen whenever some editor decides a personal goal carves a special exemption from basic core policies. So if I wanted to proselytize my religion I couldn't tread on WP:NPOV. In terms of site management debates, people have a right to criticize and speak openly. I don't think it's much of a secret that some types of discussions see interference from people who act in bad faith. I made a critical mistake in that report of supposing that a history which satisfied all the criteria I had developed would be acting in bad faith. That's on me; I'll learn from it. Durova^Charge! 09:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Questions to the arbitrators

Recusal

The claim was made that "roughly two dozen people received the report. Those included people from the Foundation, and some (not all) members of ArbCom" [1]

A clerk has recused himself from this case due to participation in the original ANI thread.[2]

What circumstances, if any, related to the report would cause a member of Arbcom to recuse themselves from this case? Uncle uncle uncle (talk) 19:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Durova sent her evidence to a mailing list set up for the purpose of discussing how to respond more effectively to stalking and harassment of editors. A couple of Arbitrators are on the list, as well as Jimbo. (I used to subscribe but opted out some time ago.) I don't think that simply receiving the email would be grounds for recusal. If an Arbitrator had said, "Great evidence, block away!" that would indeed be; however that seems unlikely to have happened and there are enough people willing to say so if it had that I don't think it is an issue. Thatcher131 02:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I beg to differ. If an Arbitrator had said, "Great evidence, block away!" that would be grounds for making them a party to the proceedings, and facing similar consequences as those being contemplated for Durova. But anyone on that list, a list whose very existence and usage is the subject of numerous proposed remedies and principles, should immediately recuse him/herself, as they have a glaring conflict of interest. Isarig (talk) 04:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

How would we know whether or not the Arbitrator has said that? ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 05:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

If any arbitrator rules on this case and then it later comes out that they were on "that list" then I think they should expect, at least, to be asked some tough questions. Cla68 (talk) 06:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

And yet, the damage would already be done. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 08:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Parties

We currently have just three parties. I am not even sure why Dmcdevit is listed as a party, save for being the one who brought the issue formally before ArbCom.

Given the locus of the dispute, I would have no objection to being added as a party, if thought fit. I also wonder whether others who received the initial e-mail (when we know who they are) or commented on the initial block, or, indeed, who have been involved in the war against "abusive sockpuppets" should be added. Some people are likely to be included in all three categories. It is not something I know very much about, but I am sure others can suggest some names. -- !! ?? 22:53, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The editor who filed the case is often included as a party for purposes of receiving notices and the like. This does not imply that he or she had any direct role in the underlying dispute. In view of your role in this matter, I am sure there would be no objection to your listing yourself as a party on the case page, or asking the Clerk for this case, Cbrown1023, to do so. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Since SlimVirgin is the administrator of the "secret" email list which is one of the central pieces of evidence in this case, should she be added as a party to this case? Cla68 (talk) 06:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and requested her addition. The request allows for it to be disapproved if not accepted. Cla68 (talk) 06:09, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't make much sense. Ask yourself, what is the point of being named a party in an arbcom case? It's to be subject to the rulings made from the case. None of these rulings would even effect SlimVirgin, especially given that this mailing list is off-wiki. What would be the point? -- Ned Scott 06:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Do people get sanctioned for off-Wikipedia actions? • Lawrence Cohen 06:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they have, especially when, as in this case, their off-wiki actions have had on-wiki affects. Cla68 (talk) 06:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

... -- Ned Scott 06:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Let me elaborate, none of this has to do with Slim's actions. Slim did not block anyone. Maintaining a mailing list, or even discussing certain topics, does not make you responsible for the actions of other people. To think that SlimVirgin should be a party to this case is really absurd. -- Ned Scott 06:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Cla68's ongoing witch hunt on SlimVirgin are growing tiresome. I suggest that if he feels she was behind his unsuccessful admin bid or continues to harbor some sort of vindictiveness for other percieved wrongs, then he follow the normal dispute resolution process for a resolution to this "problem".--MONGO (talk) 08:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Ned Scott's statement at 06:54, 26 Nov. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 08:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposed principles

Assume good faith

1) Users are expected to assume good faith in their dealings with other editors, especially those whom they had conflicts with in the past.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. Adapted from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. Mackensen (talk) 19:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Possibly redundant to 4.1 below. Kirill 20:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Paul August ☎ 06:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Endorse. And if I failed to assume enough of it, I very much regret the mistake. Durova^Charge! 09:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Responsiveness

2) Administrators must be willing and prepared to discuss the reasons for their administrative actions in a timely manner.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. Adapted from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/InShaneee. Mackensen (talk) 19:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Could be rolled in with "Responsibility", below, into a single principle. Kirill 20:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Paul August ☎

Comment by parties:

I made a bad call. Thought this would be like Eyrian and a few others who realized the gig was up. Did my best to apologize and atone for the mistake once I realized it. Durova^Charge! 09:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Private correspondence

3) In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence) or their lapse into public domain, the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki. See Wikipedia:Copyrights.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. Adapted from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Hkelkar 2. Mackensen (talk) 19:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's not shoot the messenger. Paul August ☎ 06:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

There are ways to go about things and ways not to. If the report no longer held investigative value I could be convinced to release it as an example of a lesson learned. As this week has shown, I'm not too proud to eat crow when I've erred. But the coercive manner this was done is, in my opinion, a violation of WP:BAN#Outside influence. I get very stubborn when people try that approach. Durova^Charge! 09:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Oppose -- The posting of such emails may be considered fair use, particularly where such postings constitute legitimate whistleblowing related to disruptive on-wiki conduct. Of course, any non-public information concerning the identity of particular editors should be redacted prior to posting such e-mails. John254 22:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

• Legitimate whistleblowing can be mailed to ArbCom without risking violation of privacy. Posting private emails without permission is wrong on several levels, not least breach of copyright. Guy (Help!) 23:12, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
• Support. JzG is dead on. As well, we're not in the business of whistleblowing. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 00:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you intend to bring Giano into this? (in which case he should be notified) Otherwise, none of the parties posted e-mails, which would make this principle seem out of place. Jd2718 (talk) 00:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use does not apply in non-article-space. No emails can be added to Wikipedia without consent from the author(s). Daniel 00:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I concede that any posting of an unpublished email on a Wikipedia user page would violate our fair use policy, expressly failing non-free content criteria 4 and non-free content criteria 9. However, in exceptional circumstances such as those presented in this case, it is in the interests of the encyclopedia to override the non-free content criteria per Wikipedia:Ignore all rules, in order to expose egregious administrative misconduct. WP:IAR, of course, does not exempt us from compliance with fair use law; however, I would contend that the posting of the email in question was permissible under American legal standards of fair use. See Fair_use#Purpose_and_character and Fair_use#Effect_upon_work.27s_value, both of which factors would favor a finding of fair use, since the emails were posted for non-commercial purposes, and since the effect of the posting on the market value of the email was negligible, as Durova never intended market the email commercially. Moreover, the portion of the email that was posted didn't contain private information concerning anyone. The blocking of Giano II, and the protection of his talk page, were completely unjustified. John254 02:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use is a weak argument here, I would justify the principle more on the grounds of respecting privacy and privileged communication. The corrollary is that people who misuse (or use bad judgement in) privileged communications may lose the privilege. Thatcher131 02:25, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Courtesy

4) Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably and calmly in their dealings with other users. Insulting and intimidating other users harms the community by creating a hostile environment. Personal attacks are not acceptable.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. Adapted from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. Mackensen (talk) 19:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Prefer the newer version below. Kirill 20:01, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Decorum

4.1) Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably and calmly in their interactions with other users, to keep their cool when editing, and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct—including, but not limited to, personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, trolling, harassment, and gaming the system—is prohibited. Users should not respond to such behavior in kind; concerns regarding the actions of other users should be brought up in the appropriate forums.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Wording from most recent cases. Kirill 20:01, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Endorse. Durova^Charge! 09:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Blocking

5) Blocking is a serious matter. Administrators should be exceedingly careful when blocking. Blocks should be made only if other means are not likely to be effective; prior discussion or warnings should generally precede all blocks. Blocks should be used only to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, and if there could be any reasonable doubt about whether a block is appropriate, other administrators and/or the community should be consulted. Following a block, the blocked editor should be notified of the block on their talk page, and additional notification on site may be appropriate to seek community input.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. Adapted from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Betacommand. Mackensen (talk) 19:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Paul August ☎ 06:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

May I suggest that something be added with the regard to the willingness to remedy and own up to one's mistake, once made? This week's events could have a chilling effect of discouraging sysops from putting their actions up at administrative noticeboards or reversing and apologizing once they recognize a mistake. I failed at some proactive measures, but I've taken a hard drubbing for proactive corrective measures. The laundry list of blocks where I reversed myself, for instance, really seems to have been assembled on the supposition that open-minded review is presumptively wrong. Durova^Charge! 09:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I agree that blocking is a serious matter, having been blocked myself (by Durova), but because she did unblock me and has been pleasant, encouraging, and helpful ever since, I see no reason to maintain a grudge. Heck, she even accidentally blocked herself once, something other admins have done by accident as well. So, she's hardly the only admin to ever make accidental blocks out of God knows how many good blocks. Yes, people should be careful, but occasional mistakes that are quickly corrected and apologized for should be forgiven. --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 02:44, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Responsibility

6) Users are responsible for the editorial and administrative actions they undertake. If a user feels that external concerns prevent them from justifying their actions in public, they are obliged to refrain from that action altogether or to bring the matter before the Arbitration Committee.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. This perhaps breaks new ground, but is I think implied by the block policy and anticipates Wikipedia:Confidential evidence. Mackensen (talk) 19:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Endorse, with allowance for the concerns below. I have pledged not only to bring confidential evidence to the Committee formally in future, but to let the Committee act upon it as a body so that the community's legitimate concern about adequate review is satisfied. Durova^Charge! 09:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

The core concept is valid but this is overstated. For example, it would imply that an OTRS respondent could not edit an article based on an OTRS request without consulting ArbCom. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

No, and ditto for checkusers. We'll clarify that. Mackensen (talk) 20:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Same Concern above. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 00:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Responsibility

6.1) Users are responsible for the editorial and administrative actions they undertake, and must be willing and prepared to discuss the reasons for their actions in a timely manner. If a user feels that external concerns prevent them from justifying their actions in public, they are obliged to refrain from that action altogether or to bring the matter before the Arbitration Committee.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Rolling in some other points. Kirill 20:09, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I'll let others work out the fine points. Strongly endorse the basic concept. Durova^Charge! 09:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Same concern as in 6. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 00:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Responsibility

6.2) Users are responsible for the editorial and administrative actions they undertake, and must be willing and prepared to discuss the reasons for their actions in a timely manner. If a user feels that external concerns prevent them from justifying their actions in public, and is not carrying out official Foundation responsibilities, they are obliged to refrain from that action altogether or to bring the matter before the Arbitration Committee.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Better? This is not intended to hinder the activities of checkusers, oversighters, and the OTRS crowd, particularly as this case didn't really involve them. Mackensen (talk) 21:15, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Slightly reordered clauses; but this is good, overall. Kirill 21:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Per 6.0 and 6.1. Durova^Charge! 09:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

As a matter of semantics, are checkuser and oversight considered "Foundation responsibilities"? I know they require Foundation identification verification and the like, but I have not previously heard that particular term used. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Possibly "is not acting under the authority of the Foundation" would be a better wording; but I wonder if a more explicit version may not be simpler. Kirill 22:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Same concern as NewYorkBrad.⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 00:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Responsibility

6.3) Users are responsible for the editorial and administrative actions they undertake, and must be willing and prepared to discuss the reasons for their actions in a timely manner. If a user feels that they cannot justify their actions in public, they are obliged to refrain from that action altogether or to bring the matter before the Arbitration Committee. This does not apply to users carrying out official tasks as authorized by the Foundation or the Committee (including, but not limited to, checkuser, oversight, and OTRS activity).

Comment by Arbitrators:

Really, really explicit. Kirill 22:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't intend "external" in that sense; I can see where that would be misinterpreted. I've shortened the clause to remove the mention. Mackensen (talk) 23:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Per 6.0 and 6.1. Durova^Charge! 09:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Is the reference to "external concerns" meaningful? It seems to imply that there are conversely "internal concerns" that this wouldn't apply to, but I've got no idea what "external" or "internal" would mean in context. Unless internal concerns are also "official tasks"?87.254.68.249 (talk) 22:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

To put it another way, suppose that the situation was replayed with only the wording above as guidance. Suppose the blocking admin felt that they didn't want to give their reasons because they didn't want to divulge their secret investigative methods. That's a reason they might regard as "internal" to the project. It's a reason that hypothetically they regard as "internal" to their duties as an admin. Would they expect it to be considered an "external concern"?87.254.68.249 (talk) 23:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Which part does the "This does not apply to users carrying out official tasks [...]" clause apply to? The first sentence, the second, or both? Daniel 23:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The second part, mainly, as that's the practical one; but there may be cases where even the first part isn't applicable to official actions. Kirill 00:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Much better than the previous versions. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 00:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Generally yes. Concerned about possibility of gaming, but in general ArbCom is elected to deal with delicate situations; self-selected investigators may lack the proper perspective on their investigations to take action. Any action that can't be justified by on-wiki evidence and discussion/consensus shouldn't be taken by the person proposing it. Thatcher131 02:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Administrative discretion

7) Administrators are normally afforded wide discretion to block users who they believe are a danger to the project.

Comment by Arbitrators:

It may be possible to bundle this with other principles, but this is accurate, subject to the usual requirements for discussion. Mackensen (talk) 19:50, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

(To Amarkov). See principle above ("responsibility"). You can't have this without the other. Mackensen (talk) 19:52, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback. Agree very much with Amarkov's proviso of willingness to unblock. The catch here was that the user also wanted privacy, so a 75 minute block wasn't so much the problem as the attention that ensued. Durova^Charge! 09:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Stolen from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Sadi Carnot#Administrative discretion and proposed. This is an important facet of this case. east.718 at 19:47, November 25, 2007

This presumes that such users can be unblocked easily if it turns out they aren't a danger to the project. If blocks are based on evidence that most people aren't allowed to see, it is much harder to unblock them, so the wide discretion in blocking them must be reduced as well. Since this case involves blocks mostly based on secret evidence, I'm not quite sure why this principle is important here. -Amarkov moo! 20:18, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Recall

8) Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall contains those administrators who have agreed to stand for reconfirmation of their status under certain conditions. Participation in this category is entirely voluntary, and administrators may set any conditions that they wish. However, when their conditions are met, administrators are expected to abide by their promise to stand for reconfirmation.

Comment by Arbitrators:

It is meaningless, in the sense of the term that you're using. A promise to stand for recall is only as good as the administrator's word. Kirill 20:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Recall has no standing. It's a voluntary undertaking. Mackensen (talk) 20:21, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. If we don't have this, then recall is meaningless, as people could always just change their conditions when something bad comes up. -Amarkov moo! 19:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

False dichotomy in the rationale for including this here. Any administrator that the community perceives as going back on their word about willingness to be recalled will be taken to task by the community without there needing to be an ArbCom ruling about this entirely voluntary process. Kirill and Mackensen have it just right. I will say I feel the statement is an accurate characterisation of general perception about voluntary recall, though... the expectation is that of the community, not of any particular body such as ArbCom. ++Lar: t/c 21:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I think this should be included. Administrator recall may be entirely voluntary but administrator responsibility is not. If you give a pledge and fail to honour it, the fact that you did not have to give the pledge in the first place is not a justification for going back on your word. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:32, 25 November 2007 (UTC) Struck after the confirmation from Newyorkbrad below; this is no longer relevant. Sam Blacketer (talk) 09:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, if the recall procedure is not acknowledged by Arbcom and Durova fails to adhere to her recall promise, it will be time to classify the recall page under "historical". --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) (talk) 21:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Recall is indeed meaningless, at least in the sense of being entirely unenforceable. Just as well, or we would probably have more witch-hunts. Guy (Help!) 23:23, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Whatever merits this proposal may or may not have had, it appears to be moot now that Durova has indicated that she will stand for a new RfA at the end of this case. Whether the RfA should take place now, as a couple of editors have suggested elsewhere, or await the end of this arbitration case is not within the scope of the committee's responsibility and/or is not an issue warranting review. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Recall

8.1) Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall contains those administrators who have agreed to stand for reconfirmation of their status under certain conditions. Participation in this category is entirely voluntary, and administrators may set any conditions that they wish. However, an administrator who ignores calls for recall can be considered to have violated the trust of the community.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

FYI: I never pledged to join it during my original RFA. Durova^Charge! 09:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed rewording. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 00:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't really agree with this. It's not even clear if the community supports the idea of recall, let alone whether signing up for a category can be seen as making a meaningful commitment. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Same comment as on 8, above. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the meaningful committment is violated if they promised to join the category during their RfA and back out after a significant dispute has arisen. Without the former, the community may not have any expectation that they will be in the category, without the latter we don't leave room for changed circumstances. Not sure that it is critical here. GRBerry 04:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

As above, this is now irrelevant, but had it have been relevant it would have been a worse wording than the original. "Violated the trust of the community" is a very strong statement to make. Sam Blacketer (talk) 09:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

External discussion

9) Users are free to discuss Wikipedia-related matters using any forum or medium of their choice. However, they must be aware that such external discussions cannot serve as a justification for taking action in the absence of on-wiki discussion or official authorization.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Address the "secret mailing list" issue more explicitly; could be worded better. Kirill 20:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the "responsibility" principle implies this, but yes. No extant policy restricts behavior; it's hard to image how one could. Mackensen (talk) 20:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I take full responsibility for my own decision. Durova^Charge! 09:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

The caveat placed in the Responsibility principle for checkuser, oversight etc. should also be applied here, in my opinion. Where private data is involved which cannot be revealed to anyonw who has not recieved the appropriate 'clearance', decisions made by consensus of the applicable groups/mailing lists (especially arbcom-l) are justification aplenty, and in practice they can't be overruled by anyone else without that private information. Thoughts? Daniel 00:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Hence the "or official authorization" part. Kirill 00:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

A consensus formed on checkuser-l, oversight-l, arbcom-l, otrs-en-l etc. is, for Wikipedia purposes, an "official authorization"? Daniel 00:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Arbcom-l, certainly. The others are probably in a bit of a gray area (as there's no provision, technically, for say a "consensus of checkusers" to authorize something); but it's probably a moot point, as I'm not aware of those lists being used in such a manner. Kirill 00:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

If an incident arises with private data and a request for review initiated, I would assume that it is taken to the appropriate mailing list for discussion and consensus. At the end, consensus pops out, and that's what generally stands as the result. Or maybe I'm off the mark here (I'll defer to your knowledge being on three [four?] of the ones I cited). Daniel 00:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Freedom to report perceived cyberstalking and harassment

10) Users are free to file confidential reports of cyberstalking and harassment with Arbcom without fear that the report could be used against themselves.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

This is the only thing I want to propose. It is necessary because I have been criticized for filing such a report in my capacity as an individual editor (no admin tools were used to prepare the report). In the absence of bad faith, filing such a report can never be the basis for any sort of complaint against the filing party. - Jehochman ^Talk 21:24, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

(reply to Christopher Parham) The arbitrators have the evidence, and if they don't understand what I am talking about, they can email me for clarification. - Jehochman ^Talk 21:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Do you plan to submit evidence that would explain why this is relevant? Christopher Parham (talk) 21:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Responses to harassment and stalking; perspective

11) Efforts to respond forcefully to incidents of on- and off-wiki harassment and stalking of Wikipedia editors and to extend support to editors victimized by these practices are extremely important. It is also appropriate to be watchful for banned users who continue to attempt to disrupt Wikipedia. However, users engaged in efforts to combat these problems should remain mindful that the vast majority of editors would never engage in such practices. The conclusion that an editor is dangerous to Wikipedia and its contributors should only be reached on a substantial weight of credible evidence. If an administrator perceives that a genuine emergency situation exists, the Arbitration Committee or in appropriate cases the Office should be consulted.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

"When you start accusing everyone of being in on a conspiracy, you shouldn't be surprised if they decide to confirm your paranoia by banding together against you." —khaosworks Applicable all around, both as a social dynamic and as a caution. WP:CABAL#On_Wikipedia_and_the_Cabal Durova^Charge! 09:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

If a genuine emergency situation existed, I think that would actually justify taking action immediately instead of consulting Arbcom or the Foundation. A user who might at some point become disruptive is not a genuine emergency situation, ever. -Amarkov moo! 23:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The last sentence of the proposal may be expendible. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Accusations of administrator misconduct

12) Accusation of administrator misconduct is a serious matter. Such accusations, whether direct or implied (such as by speculative questions), must not be made unless there is strong evidence for doing so. As with other community standards, administrators in particular are expected to model proper behavior by refraining from such speculations.

Comment by Arbitrators:

What does this have to do with the matter at hand? Kirill 22:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Are either of these users selling their services as Wikipedia admins? Are either of them using their not inconsiderable influence to eliminate their competitors?[3] Raymond Arritt (talk) 22:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a fair question. Mackensen (talk) 22:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

So is "When did you stop beating your wife?" Raymond Arritt (talk) 22:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, when did you? Be serious. Mackensen (talk) 22:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Raymond Arritt (talk) 22:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose - as noted above, this has nothing to do with this case. Furthermore, being an administrator is supposedly "No big deal" - and allegations of administrator misconduct are made on a daily basis at AN/I - some with strong evidence, some without. This is not a court martial, and we are not 'questioning a Marine officer with an impeccable service record.' Isarig (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Nothing to do with this case? How does an accusation made against the parties -- which made in the thick of the debate on the matter being decided here -- have nothing to do with this case? Raymond Arritt (talk) 22:36, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Why? Criticism of admins should have no more restrictions than criticism of anyone else. -Amarkov moo! 23:05, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Amarkov says it right, why should admins be exempt from criticism? Kwsn (Ni!) 00:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

This gets to the heart of the matter. I hope Mackensen reconsiders his appallingly flippant response. --Tony Sidaway 01:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

This really should be "accusations of misconduct", of any kind. But otherwise I think it touches on both the problems with Durova's actions and some problems with the response to them, and would be a perfectly reasonable principle. The point being, caution is needed when making accusations as even if withdrawn the social damage can be great. Christopher Parham (talk) 02:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Accusations of misconduct

12.1) Accusations of misconduct are serious matters. Such accusations, whether direct or implied (such as by speculative questions), must not be made unless there is strong evidence for doing so. As with other community standards, administrators in particular are expected to model proper behavior by refraining from such speculations.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed as an alternative to 12 per Parham et al. Jd2718 (talk) 05:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Loutishness discouraged

13) Loutish behavior is strongly discouraged. Persistent louts may be sanctioned.

Comment by Arbitrators:

See "Decorum" above; I would hope that this would be covered by the prohibition on unseemly behavior. Kirill 01:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

We must not have a repetition of the appalling behavior that led to this case. --Tony Sidaway 01:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The hounding of Durova and Jehochman is some of the worst I have seen. "Lack of decorum" isn't quite the phrase. --Tony Sidaway 01:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

"Hounding"? "Flippant"? "Appaling behaviour"? Lack of decorum seems to be the correct phrase to describe those terms at least. Zocky | picture popups 03:44, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

"Sleuthing"

14) Self-appointed "sleuthing" - conducting investigations against editors in good standing who have not committed any violation of WP policy is founded in a presumption of bad faith, and as such is antithetical to the principles of Wikipedia and should not be done.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Isarig (talk) 01:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Support, but needs to be worded a bit better. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 06:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Stalking and harassment are legal problems

15) Stalking and harassment are legal problems. As such, they need to be handled under the supervision of competent Office staff. Volunteers should not engage in amateur police work, including Arbcom itself.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Proposed. - Jehochman ^Talk 03:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Oppose -- Regardless of whether particular instances of stalking and harassment are or are not legal problems, when such activities occur on-wiki administrators and the Arbitration Committee can, should, and will deal with them by warning, blocking, and/or banning the offending users. The Arbitration Committee may also consider cases in which there is compelling evidence that a user has been engaging in off-wiki stalking and harassment of other Wikipedia editors. John254 03:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Stalking and harassment can rise to the level of being legal problems, but it may sometimes be necessary for editors, administrators, and/or the Arbitration Committee to deal with the on-wiki effects of such conduct. Good judgment is always necessary and, in appropriate cases, input from the Office and/or the Arbitration Committee should be sought. The proposed principle is not necessarily relevant to the block of !!, however. As much as we would like to see good order kept on Wikipedia and all of our policies followed, a sense of perspective should be maintained. There is an order of magnitude difference between investigating the possibility that a new account represents the reappearance of someone who has engaged in off-wiki harassment and stalking of editors and their families, as opposed to investigating the possibility that an editor might be the reappearance of someone who was asked to leave Wikipedia because he or she made too many inappropriate edits to an article. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:53, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose, presumes something that may not actually be correct in all situations. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 06:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Bigfoot

16) If someone believes they have evidence that Bigfoot exists, it should be reviewed by people other than a self-selected group of Bigfoot believers.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Thatcher131 03:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Support. Couldn't have put it better myself. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 05:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes Kwsn (Ni!) 05:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Beautiful ;) Kla’quot (talk | contribs) 07:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no Bigfoot.--MONGO (talk) 08:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Private evidence

17) Blocks and bans should generally not be made on the basis of private evidence. Administrators who block or ban on the basis of private evidence should be willing to share their evidence with any other administrator who asks in good faith to review the evidence. (Evidence derived from Checkuser, Oversight, OTRS, the Foundation and ArbCom is not private but privileged. Blocks made on the basis of privileged evidence are subject to review by others with the same access.)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

One problem here seems to be that Durova shared her conclusions with a group that was too small and that was largely self-selected on the basis of a belief in Bigfoot. If the evidence is so sensitive that it can not be shared with other admins who want to review the block, the matter should probably be referred to ArbCom. Thatcher131 03:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The idea behind this is good, but redefining words is not a good idea. No matter what an Arbcom decision says, "private evidence" will continue to mean any evidence that is not widely revealed, and a decision using a different definition will be confusing at best, abused at worse. -Amarkov moo! 04:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The point of private vs privileged is to make a distinction between checkuser/OTRS/oversight/ArbCom/Foundation evidence, which are subject to review by others in the same position, and evidence and conclusions of an "ordinary" admin lacking such access. It;s a more specific restatement of 6.3 more or less, but I wanted to be more specific. Can you think of better wording? Thatcher131 04:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't think of how to word it better right now, but Arbcom isn't a legal body; creating special legal definitions for words won't work here. -Amarkov moo! 04:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I very much like the distinction between private and privileged, and I hope that others who have made other principles and findings in this case will utilize this distinction where appropriate. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 06:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

All CheckUser evidence is private. People have been blocked on the basis of privileged evidence ever since CheckUser was instituted, if not before. It is of course the case that such blocks are open to review by others with the same access. The point about referral to ArbCom is a red herring - there were arbitrators and CheckUsers on the list to which Durova circulated the email. Those of us who received it and did not tell Durova it was not actionable, are feeling a bit foolish, but the proposal above does not actually address the core problem which was that Durova made a bad call. Guy (Help!) 09:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Good intentions

17) It is perfectly possible for a user acting in good faith to behave inappropriately. While some allowance is made for motive, users must not expect that misbehavior will have no consequences merely because they meant no harm.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Applies to a number of the editors involved here. Kirill 05:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

The road to hell is littered..... ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 06:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Article development is our mission

18) Creating and developing content for articles is the point of editing Wikipedia, as opposed to working on back channels such as administration and investigating others. Editors such as User:!! and User:Giano II, who create great material, are examples of what sort of content creation everyone should be doing.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Suggested, in regards to what and who has been affected here. • Lawrence Cohen 06:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant to the case. Even administrative tasks aid the mainspace, and in their own way are just as vital to edits made to the mainspace. -- Ned Scott 07:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Disagree, the project doesn't exist for the purpose of administering it, it exists to provide content for people to look at and learn from. Administration facilitates this, but quality content writing/editing is what it's really (at least should be) all about. Cla68 (talk) 07:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant and dangerous. It suggests that, for example, individuals like User:Jon Awbrey should not be banned however disruptive they become if they have created decent content. Some editors create decent content but are congenitally unable to work collaboratively, and in some circumstances it will always be necessary to ask them, regretfully, to leave. Giano gets a lot of slack because of his content creation, this is as it should be, but this is not an indefinite license to troll, as this proposal infers. Guy (Help!) 09:44, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Banned editors

19) If Wikipedians believe an editor has been unjustly banned then they should work with ArbCom to appeal the ban. Enabling banned users to evade their bans and continue to abuse Wikipedia for their own ends fosters a culture of paranoia and is divisive. If an appeal is not successful, Wikipedians are expected to abide by that consensus and not collaborate with the banned users (Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Alkivar).

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

This is one of the eight hundred pound gorillas in this particular room. If people were not so sympathetic to certain abusers of the project, then Durova's rather paranoid approach would probably never have arisen in the first place. Guy (Help!) 09:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

{template}

20)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

{template}

20)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed findings of fact

Durova

1) Durova (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has edited Wikipedia since October 2005 and has been an administrator since October 17, 2006. In addition to contributing content, she has been active with respect to dispute resolution issues, including active participation at the former community sanctions noticeboard, proposing and overseeing the community enforceable mediation process, and providing useful input in arbitration cases.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:36, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Durova's block of User:!!

2) On November 18, 2007, Durova announced on WP:ANI that she had indefinitely blocked !! (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) as a disruptive sockpuppet, stating that the grounds for the block could not be discussed on-wiki and that any appeal must be routed to the Arbitration Committee.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

May want to add that there was apparently no discussion with !! prior to the block, a fact which I find unfortunate and unnecessary, esp. when the circumstantial nature of the evidence is weighed against the editor's positive contributions (shaky evidence + many positive contributions = give the person a chance to defend themselves before blocking). —Wknight94 (talk) 04:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

That's referred to in (5) below, but could be added here as well. There is always an issue in drafting findings as to how detailed one should be (to oversimplify, the difference between the Fred approach and the Kirill approach :) ). Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, there it is, thanks. —Wknight94 (talk) 05:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

This is correct.--MONGO (talk) 07:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

User:!!

3) A review of User:!!'s editing prior to the block reflects no problematic edits of any nature. User:!! had received no warnings and had been involved in no incidents of any kind, but had made substantial content contributions including the creation of many articles listed on Wikipedia:Did you know? as well as active participation in maintaining the DYK page itself.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Evaluation of the block

4) The evidence compiled by Durova, viewed as individual items and as a whole, was insufficient to justify blocking User:!! or taking any other action against him. No reasonable administrator would have blocked User:!! or taken any other action based on this evidence, nor was the block justified by any other available evidence.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I have a problem with "reasonable" in the statement "No reasonable administrator would have blocked User:!!".

Reasonable has multiple meanings including: rational, able to reason, of sound judgement, and sensible.

As Durova appears to be rational and able to reason, "of sound judgement" or "sensible" would be better than "reasonable" in the proposal above.

I recommend changing the statement to: "No administrator of sound judgement would have blocked User:!!"Uncle uncle uncle (talk) 07:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Reversal of the block

5) After Durova announced her block of User:!! a number of editors questioned the block and provided additional information to Durova both on ANI and off-wiki. Durova reversed the block 75 minutes after it was imposed, using the unblock summary "false positive", and apologized to User:!!. Durova has acknowledged that she erred in this matter by failing to contact User:!! before blocking him.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

A bad call (a very bad call indeed) submitted for review and quickly reversed. --Tony Sidaway 01:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

During the 75 minutes Durova responded to calls to review the block by referring editors to ArbCom. I don't know if that should be mentioned, but it does help fill in the picture. Jd2718 (talk) 05:53, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Good faith

6) Although Durova's block of User:!! was gravely misguided and has caused substantial disruption, she apparently acted in good faith in the sense that she believed the block was in the best interests of the encyclopedia at the time she imposed it.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Good faith towards the encyclopedia, yes, but not towards the editor. Mackensen (talk) 21:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that Durova was doing what she though to be in the best interests of the encyclopedia. Paul August ☎ 06:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Responding to Mackensen, my point is that the administrator was pursuing what she thought of as a worthwhile action, rather than a deliberately destructive one. Of course one of the many reasons this was a bad block was the failure to WP:AGF with respect to User:!!'s positive contributions. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:15, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

You know something? I reckon this is a case for Hanlon's razor. Guy (Help!) 23:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

If I block an account for simple vandalism, I act in good faith. To say it is "not good faith" towards the user in question is not really getting us anywhere.--Doc^g 01:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Except that you block vandals for vandalism, and !! was blocked for writing DYK entries. Zocky | picture popups 04:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

On rereading, "best interests of the project" would probably be a better wording. Newyorkbrad (talk) 06:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Concur...but she was way off the mark this once.--MONGO (talk) 07:53, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

External mailing lists

7) The Committee is aware of the existence of a number of external mailing lists used for discussion of various Wikipedia-related topics. As these lists have no official standing and are not operated by the Wikimedia Foundation, the Committee has no authority over them.

Comment by Arbitrators:

What people discuss in their living rooms is their own business. Kirill 20:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Oppose -- Off-wiki communications are within the jurisdiction of, and may furnish cause for sanction by, the Arbitration Committee when such communications directly result in substantial on-wiki disruption. If an editor were to, say, set up a mailing list for the purpose of votestacking AFD discussions or requests for adminship, such usage of the list would correctly be regarded as actionable misconduct. John254 21:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This is only true to the extent that Arbcom can't shut down or regulate the content of such lists. As John254 says, they can and should take what action they can if private forums are causing on-Wiki disruption. That's what they did with ED.-Amarkov moo! 21:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Not in terms of policy, yes. Doesn't mean the ArbCom can't condemn, see [4]. Even if we can't stop these lists proliferating, doesn't mean we can't say they're a bad idea. Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 21:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I support this finding. Guy (Help!) 23:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Support. Wikipedians have freedom of association offsite as a basic civil liberty. Trying to stop people from emailing their friends is dumb. Kla’quot (talk | contribs) 00:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Support per Moreschi. We can condemn them, but we cannot control them. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 00:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

comment; Do you even realize what you're supporting? If this passes, then we are saying that no-one can ever get in trouble on wikipedia for their behavior on (for example) WR or ED; or for massive off-wiki canvassing; or for any number of other things. When conduct in any other forum has a direct impact on Wikipedia, the users engaging in such conduct can and should have consequences for it here.—Random832 02:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

To clarify - this is a proposal to give free rein to anyone who uses external sites to coordinate behavior that is harmful to wikipedia. That the behavior in this instance is (some would argue) less harmful than that in some other high-profile cases is immaterial; this proposal fails to distinguish between them.—Random832 03:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm? All the proposal says is that we have no authority over these lists; it makes no comment regarding what we can and can't do to deal with on-wiki disruption. Kirill 03:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

External mailing lists

7.1) The Committee is aware of the existence of a number of external mailing lists used for discussion of various Wikipedia-related topics. As these lists have no official standing and are not operated by the Wikimedia Foundation, the Committee has no authority over them. Actions on Wikipedia prompted or influenced by such lists are within the Committee's authority, and evidence from such lists may be considered when relevant.

7.2) Wikimedia Foundation English Wikipedia

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

7.2 minor correction, which hopefully is correct. - Jehochman ^Talk 04:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Not at all correct. Internal mailing lists are not generally specific to a project on a technical level, for one; but, more importantly, the lists in question are indeed outside the Foundation's authority, not merely our own. Kirill 04:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Obvious clarification to propose, given the discussion above. GRBerry 04:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Durova infiltrated outside communities as a "spy"

8) Durova has stated that she has infiltrated outside groups and communities as a spy.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Submitted, came to light on her RFC and Arbcom canidate page. • Lawrence Cohen 21:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion about which site it is that we are editing, and which site the arbitration committee has authority over. The answer to both of those is en.wikipedia.org. Now, to the best of my knowledge, Wikipedia Review is not part of this website. The question becomes, how is this finding of fact relevant? Picaroon (t) 21:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The diff that you link to here is followed by a smiley, and I do not believe that it was intended seriously. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Reply to both Newyorkbrad and Picaroon: I know, I asked her on her candidate page if it was a true statement or not. I wanted to give her a chance to confirm or disavow that as it seems relevant to all the secret and covert operations hubbub. • Lawrence Cohen 21:44, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree with NYB - pretty sure that was a joke. JavaTenor (talk) 22:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It's relevant inasmuch as it shows how Durova treats this as a sleuthing experience, as some sort of espionage, instead of encyclopedia building. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 00:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you're reading a little bit too much into that. You can't make such a judgement based on one person's sense of humor. -- Ned Scott 07:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Based on her repeated actions, I can exactly make such a judgment, such as her "sherlock holmes barnstar" and multiple invokings of it as authority, her repeated insistence on "sleuthing", a term that implies a detective or spy, and the above comment. Seems to me that I can make EXACTLY that kind of judgment, and I'm reading into it what is obvious. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 08:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

SO?--MONGO (talk) 07:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Giano violated policy

9) Giano's statements attempted improper influence. [5]

Comment by Arbitrators:

You meant a different policy, perhaps? Or a different diff? The cited comment is pretty clearly a threat of on-wiki actions rather than outside ones. Kirill 04:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems I'm doing things backwards today. Corrected. Mercury 04:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I see no violation pf policy here. Paul August ☎ 06:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Mercury 03:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Giano is not a party to the proceeding and has not been notified. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC) (I see that Mercury has just proposed adding him, above, even as I was typing this. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC))

I don't quite see the problem here; Giano's hope that Durova would provide the community with more detail about what happened, rather than having that information come from outside sources, seems perfectly reasonable. The information Giano is talking about posting would be perfectly acceptable for him to post (more acceptable than, say, the content of the email that in fact was posted). What sort of "improper influence" do you imagine Giano is trying to wield here? Christopher Parham (talk) 04:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

That is quite innocuous and not a problem. Anyone who would think any aspect of this should remain secret doesn't have their head on straight; the disinfectant we need is the light of day on all toxic aspects, which definitely includes the reviewers that didn't do a decent job of review. GRBerry 04:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

What does improper influence mean? • Lawrence Cohen 07:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Reposting private communication

10) Giano reposted private email with the intent to disrupt. [6]

Comment by Arbitrators:

I see no intent to disrupt. Let's not shoot the messenger. Paul August ☎ 06:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Proposed. Mercury 05:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

No evidence that I can see of intent. Rather, it seems more likely that the intent was the obvious one: to make widely known the weakness of the report. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

You do not see the edit summary? Mercury 05:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I've seen it and don't see what it has to do with intent; obviously Giano was aware that the edit war would be seen as disruptive but that is quite different from seeking to cause disruption. You are assuming bad faith where I do not believe that assumption is reasonable or fair. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Look at it in context with the prior reversion and the warning. I may need to be more specific in my evidence from now on, I'll correct that in the morning. Regards, Mercury 05:24, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm well aware of the context; there's still nothing to support your extraordinary claim of bad faith. People acting in good faith do disruptive things all the time, usually without knowing the potential for disruption, but sometimes in full knowledge that they will be seen as disruptive and sometimes in willful ignorance of that fact. c.f. your protection of the active ANI discussion. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

What I "see" is a clear conflict of interest in your moving that Giano be added to this ArbCom, given that Durova nommed you for admin, and Giano was attempting to make her "secret" evidence known in his actions that you claim "violated policy." I think you should immediately strike your motion, and--if you wish--open a separate ArbCom request, in which Giano is the main party, and you are the complainant. This request is about Durova and Jehochman, not you or Giano. Mr Which^??? 05:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Refer to my statement here. Mercury 05:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Your statement even more clearly demonstrates you COI, and your intent to "get" Giano for exposing that e-mail's contents to the light of examination. I repeat, this ArbCom is not about Giano. Mr Which^??? 05:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Disagree with "intent to disrupt". The right solution to this mess was to clean it up by bringing it into the light. Attempts to keep anything secret only made it worse. I think those who tried for secrecy were acting in what they thought the best interests of the encyclopedia are; they were just extremely wrong. Coverups are not viable. GRBerry 05:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Not sure how you can speak to intent, we can't read minds and he hasn't specifically indicated what his intent was. He was in a tug of war trying to get evidence out, so that's a better bet as to his intentions...but I don't see how intents can be reduced to a finding of fact unless he states what they were. Findings of fact are better suited to someones actions than what might have been going though his mind at the time. RxS (talk) 05:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

He intended to make the course of events more transparent. I'm sure he knew that doing so would cause disruption, as any reasonable person would, but that was not why he did it. -Amarkov moo! 06:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't really agree with the things Giano has done, but that's not really fair to say about him. There is a big difference in between knowing that there will be a shitstorm and the shitstorm being the goal. -- Ned Scott 07:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

User:!! encouraged

1) is strongly encouraged to look past this extremely regrettable incident and to continue contributing high-quality content to Wikipedia under the account name of his choice.

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Proposed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Just to note, he may have already. I hope so. Majorly (talk) 22:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely.--MONGO (talk) 07:43, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Durova restricted

2) Durova is prohibited from issuing any further blocks on the basis of evidence which cannot be disclosed to all administrators. Should she violate this prohibition, she may be subject to emergency desysopping by any steward, and the block reversed immediately.

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Proposed. There's no reason to permit the massive disruption caused by the highly inappropriate block of !! to be repeated. John254 21:15, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Why only administrators? If the reasons for a block can't be revealed publicly, to everyone, she really shouldn't be making it herself. -Amarkov moo! 21:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

There's a difference between reasons and evidence: for instance, the reason may be "horrific personal attacks" and the evidence may be deleted edits. Christopher Parham (talk) 21:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh. Didn't make that distinction. Never mind, then. -Amarkov moo! 23:12, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

As a matter of procedure, there is no precedent for advance authorization of emergency desysopping by stewards. Stewards may be from projects other than En-wiki and have no familiarity with issues arising here. There is precedent language from other cases (e.g., remedy 2.1 in the Badlydrawnjeff case) providing that ArbCom will consider summary desysopping if warranted, that could be utilized if this is the remedy selected. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

There are a substantial number of stewards who have sufficient experience with the English Wikipedia as to be able to effectuate this remedy correctly. Of course, those stewards who indeed have "have no familiarity with issues arising here" should not attempt such enforcement. Additionally, it is true that there is no precedent for permitting emergency desysopping as a remedy; however, I contend that it is justified due to the extraordinary circumstances of this case, and the substantial potential for further disruption if Durova were to ever make another block of a similar character. John254 21:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

While I fully mostly support the first part of this proposal, wording of 'emergency desysoping' part doesn't seem appropriate to me. Differences between sufficient/insufficient evidence could be quite subjective, no hasty measure is appropriate here. In addition, proposed measure cannot be called emergency desysopping at all, because emergency desysoppings are only for cases when either you desysop the admin, or (s)he will continue making inappropriate things right here and right now. MaxSem^{(Han shot first!)} 22:21, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

While I agree with Newyorkbrad that the term should be summary desysopping, I have to disagree with MaxSem, given the repeat bad blocks by Durova, there is every reason to think that in another case, they will continue to happen without emergency desysopping. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 00:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I think any restrictions should partially anticipate the discussion on Wikipedia:Confidential evidence. In that, if it becomes policy or whatever, Durova would then be under its restrictions if they differ from any from this arbcom case. On that same note, it should be made clear that this applies to all admins, and not just Durova. -- Ned Scott 07:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Durova restricted

2.1) Durova is prohibited from issuing any further blocks on the basis of evidence not available to all administrators. Should she violate this prohibition, the block will be reversed immediately and she may be subject to additional sanctions by the Arbitration Committee.

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Reworded John524's proposal. I changed the reviewer to ArbCom and broadened the scope under which ArbCom can act. I also tinkered with the evidence requirement. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 00:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Support concurrently with 3 (i.e. it would take effect if she ever were to regain adminship). ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 01:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Durova desysopped

3) Durova's administrative privileges are revoked. She may reapply at any time via the usual means or by appeal to this committee

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Durova has posted to the evidence page that, following the arbitration case, she will fullfill her obligations and stand for reconfirmation. I think that renders this consideration moot. Mackensen (talk) 00:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

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Proposed Durova held 'evidence' for two weeks, carefully considered it, and took wrong action. Bad judgment trumps good faith. Of course she can edit, but ArbCom should not be asking the community to trust her with the tools. Jd2718 (talk) 00:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

How is the arbitration committee, by not desysopping her, "asking the community to trust her with the tools"? I don't see how them not desysopping her would mean they are asking the community to trust her, since community trust is not the only thing that factors into committee decisions to desysop. If it was, the arbitrators wouldn't require some desysopped users (eg Alkivar) to only ask the committee to regain adminship, as opposed to asking the committee or filing a request for adminship (which determines community trust). So, your latter sentence doesn't really follow. Picaroon (t) 00:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a fair question. Firstly, the behavior was intentional (the mistake was not). And that behavior constitutes a breech of community trust meriting consideration of desysyopping. Secondly, the proposals to restrict her (2.0 and 2.1, above) ask the community to believe that Durova's methods were wrong but her judgment is sound. I don't think that's a fair thing to put back at the community. Does that answer your question? (If not, perhaps I've misworded something) Jd2718 (talk) 00:57, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Support. Adminship is a position of trust, and Durova appears to have lost the trust of the community through her poor judgment. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 00:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Support. Durova hasn't promised to end this behavior, i.e. her "sleuthing". Cla68 (talk) 00:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Support, and any recall is irrelevant to this sanction. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 01:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Should be considered if there is clear evidence of an ongoing pattern of poor judgement. If not, desysopping Durova in the circumstances would only encourage the recent appalling behavior towards her. --Tony Sidaway 01:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not about her, it's about the project, which is why we seek to correct problem behavior, not punish it. Her behavior included the use of her admin tools and she hasn't promised to end the problematic behavior. Thus, corrective action is necessary. Any "appalling" action directed towards her as a result can be dealt with under applicable policies. Cla68 (talk) 01:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not care if you make promises or not, it only cares about what you actually do. You cannot predict the future, so you cannot say that Durova will not improve. -- Ned Scott 07:24, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Durova herself does not understand that "it only cares what you actually do", as she still has not acknowledged that her "sleuthing" methods are simply flawed (she only apologized for this specific block). --Reinoutr (talk) 07:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

We only know that they are flawed in this situation (the Committee will likely get evidence of other situations, so that they can evaluate this). Regardless, it still doesn't matter if she apologizes or makes a statement acknowledged anything, it only matters what she does. Evidence can be secret, but block logs are always public. -- Ned Scott 07:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd much rather a voluntary action be taken by Durova, at the very least promising to hang up her Sherlock Holmes hat for good, if not resigning her bit. However, she has continued to back up her methods and justify her toxic "sleuthing" behavior, and a preventative desysopping may unfortunately be the only way to go. --krimpet⟲ 01:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose as I believe that she has done more good for the project than bad and her efforts to correct any mistakes rapidly and politely are commendable. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 02:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Support. While Arbcom decisions are not the equivalent of case law and are (wisely) not binding on future cases, there are a lot of suggestions that Durova is not the only person who has been "sleuthing" in this manner; from what can be gathered, this email was in part a tutorial on how such sleuthing is done. It is very important that editors within the community be reassured that such behaviour will not be tolerated. While it may be somewhat harsh for Durova, she has been the most ardent and visible proponent and practitioner of these intensive investigations. A proposal that she could start another RFA six months after the close of the case may be reasonable. Risker (talk) 03:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Disagree with Mackensen The possibility of recall is irrelevant in my opinion. If she should be desysopped, it is better for Wikipedia if the Committee does it than if we have the extra drama of a recall process. GRBerry 05:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose We don't punish editors for breaking non-existent rules. Given the lack of guidance for such situations, Durova did what she did was best, and that's all she was required to do at that time. All that is left is if the community still trusts her, and that would be where the recall would come in. Please do not misunderstand the committee's role in all of this. -- Ned Scott 07:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose No pattern of bad admin actions has been established. The bad block of User:!! appears to be an aberration, not just one of many bad admin decisions.--MONGO (talk) 07:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Giano placed on probation

4) Giano is indefinitely placed on general probation. For good cause he may be blocked from editing for improper influence. The first block one week in length, with any subsequent block being indefinite. Blocks made under this remedy are to be recorded at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova and Jehochman#Log of blocks and bans.

4.1)Giano is indefinitely placed on general probation. He may be blocked from editing for improper influence. The first block one week in length, with any subsequent block being indefinite. Blocks made under this remedy are to be recorded at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova and Jehochman#Log of blocks and bans.

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Adapted and proposed. Mercury 03:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Giano is not a party to the proceeding and has not been notified. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC) (I see that Mercury has just proposed adding him, above, even as I was typing this. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC))

Way too general, "general probation" and "good cause" are so vague as to be meaningless. It's not clear that he's done anything that would justify any sanction from Arbcom. RxS (talk) 04:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Unsupported, and IMO unsupportable. The troubling behavior from Giano that is visible in this case is solely the posting of material to which he didn't have copyright, so any remedy regarding him should be restricted to copyright issues. GRBerry 05:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Er....why? ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 06:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

4.1 reworded. Mercury 05:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

What is improper influence? • Lawrence Cohen 06:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Good question. Zocky | picture popups 06:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Both.--MONGO (talk) 08:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Giano placed on probation

5) Giano is indefinitely placed on probation. He may be blocked from editing for reposting private communication. The first block one week in length, with any subsequent block being indefinite. Blocks made under this remedy are to be recorded at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova and Jehochman#Log of blocks and bans.

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Proposed. Mercury 05:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

It has already been demonstrated that he can be indef blocked for reposting emails. This remedy is thus meaningless. Zocky | picture popups 05:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Indef for that purpose was only until it was resolved. This remedy adds a consequence in a separate context. Mercury 05:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

No evidence that such a remedy is warranted, or even that Giano has necessarily done anything wrong. Furthermore, indefinite probation is quite extreme. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 08:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose--MONGO (talk) 08:44, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Is Mercury really asking us to place one of our best and most prolific contributors on indefinite probation over his own mentor's mistake? Really? Giano may be hard to deal with, but his contributions are invaluable compared to Durova's "sleuthing." AniMate 09:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Durova's "sleuthing"

6) The arbcom strongly urges to Durova to distance herself publicly from any future "sleuthing".

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Proposed, as she still does not seem to understand what was wrong with her methods (or at least has nowhere expressed such understanding) and has not stated anywhere that she will be more careful in her future investigations (she only has suggested she will contact more other people before imposing blocks based on such evidence). --Reinoutr (talk) 07:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose She most certainly has stated that she will be more careful in her future investigations (in just about every discussion thread that she has commented on, in fact). Even having seen the "secret e-mail" and being shocked that she would block over something so flimsy, this ignores every accurate sock she has found, and is not likely an accurate reflection of her over-all skills. -- Ned Scott 07:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose...no reason to believe that one bad call is precident setting.--MONGO (talk) 07:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

There's plenty of evidence that this has been more than just one bad call. Furthermore, sleuthing is not the point of this project; it's not even tangential to the point of this project. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 08:06, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see such evidence on the aptly named evidence page of this arbcom case, then. And if you really believe complex vandalism and troll investigations are not important to Wikipedia, then I'm not sure what to say except we would be worse off if no one did it. It certainly is related to the project. The ironic thing is that the Committee itself is one such example of this. -- Ned Scott 08:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Durova restricted on blocking

7) Before placing a block on any account, other than those based on the most obvious sort of vandalism, Durova is to seek the input from other administrators at an appropriate, on-wiki forum, e.g. WP:ANI.

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Proposed. As long as she fails to understand what was wrong, extreme scrutiny is in place. --Reinoutr (talk) 07:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose...vague and not necessary. No pattern of bad admin actions has been presented.--MONGO (talk) 07:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I beg to differ. Every single block she has made using private evidence is in question here. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 08:09, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

This proposal is not limited to blocks about private evidence. The way it is worded, she would not be able to block an editor for breaking the 3RR. -- Ned Scott 08:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Durova restricted on blocking

7.1) Before placing a block on any account on the basis of sockpuppetry accusations, Durova is to seek the input from other administrators at an appropriate, on-wiki forum, e.g. WP:ANI.

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A refinement, based on the comment by Ned Scott. --Reinoutr (talk) 08:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Not workable...some sockpuppet information, if posted publically, would alert sockpuppets of banned editors how we were able to identify them...making it easier for them to evade future blocks by not repeating recognizable actions. Durova has blocked many ban evaders in the past and posting this information publically would be a net loss to the community.--MONGO (talk) 09:25, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Believe it or not, the "methods" that were "revealed" by the document of Durova were so painfully obvious that there is not the faintest danger of exposing anything to these "sockpuppets of banned editors". It is hard to believe that it was "months of work" (according to Durova) to "develop" these methods. In addition, there are plenty of other administrators who could apply such blocks. --Reinoutr (talk) 09:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

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