Talk:Carnatic music

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SINCERE REQUEST TO NEWCOMERS TO THIS DISCUSSION

Please read all existing discussions in detail before you make comments so that editors already contributed with supporting evidences do not have to repeat the information again and againNaadapriya (talk) 19:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Needs extensive corrections

This article is embedded with lots of deceptive information. Following are some examples.

1) Uses a title that was not formally given to the South Indian Classical Music

2) Never mentions about the original name ‘Karnataka Sangeeta’

3) Implies incorrectly that the Karnataka Music, the South Indian classical Music was initiated in a language other than what it was originally started.

4) Lists the founder Sri Purandara Daasa only under composer section though he is the undisputed founder, promoter and most prolific among all composers of South Indian Classical music, Karnataka Music.

5) Implies that Sri Puradara Daasa just initiated lessons for beginners though he laid the complete foundation for the South Indian classical music, Karnataka Music.

6) The article over emphasizes on speculative information about happenings before 15th century.

7) Musicians named are not representative of the full spectrum of South Indian Classical Music, Karnataka Music.

8) Though the photo of founder Sri Purandara Daasa is appropriate, placing photo of other composers without putting that of the great Trinity is not appropriate.

9) The article is over descriptive as per Wikipedia suggested guidelines

10) The article need to be rewritten immediately based on the real facts and the use of the original formal title ‘Karnataka Music’. Rewriting will be initiated by editors who are interested to improve the article to remove deficiencies. Cooperation from other editors is requested. If not agreed for logical/validated corrections, a separate concise article for ‘Karnataka Classical Music’ is needed and will be pursued in the interest of users of popular Wikipedia.

Naadapriya (talk) 18:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

1) Please do not assume WP:OWN - the title was felt as the most appropriate by Wikipedia editors, as well as WikiProject India. This issue was also dealt with during the deletion of the WP:POVFORK: Karnataka AKA Carnatic Music.

2) This name is mentioned at the beginning of the article

3) NPOV must be adhered to at all times - no linguistic tint is being, or may be given. This issue has been dealt with in the past by consensus.

4) Adequate reference to Purandaradasar has been given where appropriate. He has also been mentioned in other sections outside of the composers section. Clearly, the user making these claims has not read the article thoroughly.

5) It is vague and inaccurate to simply state that he 'laid the complete foundation of Carnatic Music' as he is not solely responsible for doing so. He did, in his many pioneering contributions , gave a strong foundation for Carnatic music, which led to him being referred to as the father of Carnatic music - this is both mentioned and implied in the article itself.

6) The information is not speculative, it is sourced from reliable and verifiable sources.

7) The article only names the most prominent and popular artists, considered by current standards throughout India, and outside of India. Other artists that are less prominent or popular are listed elsewhere.

8) Other composer's images are not dependent on whether the Trinity's image is available or not - implying otherwise will be considered attempting to push POV. The Trinity image was removed for copyright reasons.

9) There are currently no details in the article that may be removed as they are all important.

10) There is no problem with the prose of this article. The suggested title has already been rejected on two occasions - once last month. The suggested corrections are not valid and lack logic. The user has already been alerted of the consequences of creating/recreating this article in any form. The user is not welcome to make threats on any article talk page as per Wikipedia policy. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

A detailed rebuttals to above mostly invalid and stalling[1]comments are in preparation.Naadapriya (talk) 08:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

1) Please do not stall [2]by bringing unrelated topic. ‘Admns’ have either acknowledged or shown their consent by not commenting that there was no POV ny naadapriya. It is very strange see a make-believe comment on Karnataka AKA Carnatic Music article that could not be started due to premature blocking by 'admn' based on wrong advice. Again it is requested not to assume WP:OWNership on Wikipedia article ‘Carnatic music’ which is not a correct main title for the South Indian Classical Music. The original name ‘Karnataka Music’ of South Indian Classical music was never formally renamed as ‘Carnatic Music. Therefore the title should be ‘Karnataka Music’ not ‘Carnatic Music’

2) NO it is not TRUE. The original name ‘Karnataka Music’ is needed as is in the title.

Then article can start with ‘Karnataka Sangeetam if needed a.k.a the anglicized name Carnatic music’. Again it is requested to stop stalling [3] the discussions. The title should be the original name Karnataka Music. Please read good articles such as one on Chennai. One can not use the ‘apabramsham’ (distorted by those who could not pronounce) as the original name in a title. An article on South Indian Classical music should logically bear the original name ‘Karnataka Music’ and the rest may be mentioned in the text with explanations. See the Mysore University news posted on leading news paper Prajavani, Feb 10th 2008 issue which states the foremost living legend of Karnataka Music from Andhra, BMK receiving a honorary degree for “Karnataka Sangeeta’ not for ‘Carnatic music’. Visit 1974 Ramon Magsaysay Award official website to read that the best female musician MS that world has ever seen to date receiving the highest international award for ‘Classical and Semi-classical Karnataka tradition of South India’. See the recent live interview on the web-journal thatskannada.com where the living senior most legend RKS refers to South India Classical music as “Karnataka Sangeeta”. That shows all great musicians refer to the South Indian classical Music as Karnataka Music or Sangeeta or Sangeetam not by any other name that never existed. One can go on and on to prove already well known fact.

3) Naadapriya has maintained NPOV at all time using fact based information. Current one is lot more than a consensus issue. It is about objective evidence. There is no evidence that today’s Karnataka Music was initiated in any language other than one adopted by the founder Sri Purandara Daasaru. Many editors who appear to be from different states of South India have made the same observations in the past. Stating a fact is neither ‘linguistic tint’ nor POV. It is just like stating the fact that Vedas were originally written in Sanskrit. It is requested not to bring linguistics issues here. Naadapriya who regularly accompanies instrument for Kannada, Telegu, Tamil and Malayalam music has great respect to all languages. Current issue is not about language but it is about real fact accepted by all South Indians.

4) Sri Purarandara Daasaru name is needed come with no ambiguity [4] that he founded the Karanataka Music. It is not like that in the article. Current text incorrectly implies that he started his music career by improving pre-existing music, devised a teaching method and composed. No, he founded completely a new South Indian classical music ‘Karnataka Sangeeta’ which way later also got name Karnataka Sangeetam. The article dilutes the hard fact that he founded the complete music format which is obvious in the following text from the article.

‘Carnatic music saw renewed growth during the Vijayanagar Empire by the Kannada Haridasa movement of Vyasaraja, Purandara Dasa, Kanakadasa and others.[14] Purandara Dasa who is known as the Sangeeta Pitamaha (the grandfather of Carnatic music) laid out the fundamental tenets and framework for teaching Carnatic music’.[15][4]’

How can it be ‘renewed’ when the sentence itself states Sri Purandara Daasa is

The Pitamaha (either father or Grand father) of the Karnataka Music.

5)Well apples were falling and equations existed before Newton. But Newton is solely responsible for the Gravitational Theory and all give credit to him. Similarly it is crystal clear that Sri Purandara Daasaru is solely responsible founding today’s Karnataka Music. He set the full format that is practiced by all today. It is suggested that commenting editor should read the documented history of Karnataka music carefully.

6) It is speculative. Hard objective evidences about Karnataka Music exist only since early 15th Century after Sri Purandara Daasaru founded it. It is well known through his lessons (swara concept, talas, alankaras, swara based voice exercises, Krithi format, foundation for Alaapane through UgaaBogha, Sunadi etc etc) and thousands of Krithis. This fact is acknowledged by all great musicians including Sri Thyagaraja who grew up learning to Purandara Dasa’s compostions from his mother Seethamma. As a token of his gratitude Sri Thyagaraja has paid tribute to Purandara Dasa in his musical opera - - Prahlada-Charithamu which another important objective evidence. Thus, Purandara Dasa undisputedly “Karnataka-Sangeetha-Pithamaha”. Todays form South Indian Classical music, Karnataka Sangeeta started only after Sri Purandara Daasaru.

7) There are no stipulated standards about musicians not even by Govts. The current list is of so called’ prominent and popular artists’ is POV based. All Southern States have equally contributed to Karnataka Music throughout the history and they are still continuing to do so. As per guidelines, Wikipedia is not a place for editors pass their ad-hoc subjective judgments by naming only certain artists. This is not a music forum. It needs to be noted that logical measure of contribution is quality not volume. Current posted information is not logical.

8) Again it is requested not to stall[5] using word POV. It is a observation for the need to add a photo Trinity’s for completeness of the article. naadpriya has great respect to Sri Papanasam Sivam who is considered by many as a reincarnation of Sri Purandara Daasa himself in composing great devotional Tamil Krithis. For sure he deserves a photo in the article along with Trinity.

9) It is a subjective issue and article cannot be frozen. Again the purpose of the article is to give a road map and not teach music. Objective opinion is needed from those higher than editors on this issue

10) Reason need to be stated with evidence why it is not logic rather than vague statement ‘not logic’. Again response is leading to stalling the logical discussion as in the past by using unwarranted words like ‘threat’. Please using them. Further such usage will lead to a request for blocking. It is recommended to check dictionary carefully before using inappropriate words. Use of unwarranted words and stalling [6]the discussions is against the Wikipedia policy. Please do not try to own the article by preventing edits. Continuation of such effort will imply a consent to create a new article.

It is requested Admn to unlock this article and allow logical needed editing. It is requested that Admn should refrain from ‘Ad-hoc- locking when discussions are in progress about this controversial article. Current decisions by Admn strongly leads to the conclusion that they are subjective and not objective neutral decisions. If Wikipedia still allows this article as is, a separate article on Karnataka Classical music is essential to provide accurate facts. As per Wikipedia, lack of response from Admn will be considered as a consent to start a new article on Karnataka Music.Naadapriya (talk) 08:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment and request - I've been away from this article for a long time now for various reasons. Just skimming through both your comments makes me feel that the differences are quite small and can easily be sorted out. I have been on vacation from wikipedia for about 2 months and am just limping back. Request both of you to please hold your fire for a while and I will also go through the issues and try to help. This is an article quite dear to me and it pains me to see its sorry state - though it has been steadily (but slowly) improving under Ncmv's watch. If we could all put our efforts together, we could easily make this a GA or a FA. For this, imo, we will have to start with the grassroots articles and gathering proper sources. Towards this end, I'd put together Haridasas and Carnatic music and Vijayanagara musicological nonet and maybe a few stubs. Request both of you to go through it and see if we can import some info/refs from there. Either way, let us go about it with a calm mind and improve this article. It certainly deserves better. Sarvagnya 18:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Very important -- etymology

Need to add to article: etymology of "Carnatic"/"karṇāṭaka". Most Tamil Carnatic musicians claim the term is not derived from Karnataka but is an indigenous Tamil word meaning "homeland" or something similar. Badagnani (talk) 21:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

What Tamil musicians claim is unimportant and immaterial. What historical and epigraphal research says (in the mainstream) is important. BTW, I saw your note on Sarvagnya's talk page claiming "Karnataka" is a new name. I really think you need to do some more reading. The word Karnataka has been used as far back as Panini and Mahabharata. However, I do agree that the term has had varying boundaries over different periods, though always inclusive of the Kannada speaking region. In the 12th century, even distant Devgiri (modern Daulatabad) was included in Karnata country. I have not read anywhere regions in Tamil speaking areas being called Karnataka. Ofcourse, one has to be very careful. Indian languages are very versatile, and it is very easy to conjucture native meanings and etymologies for just about any Indina term. As an example, some historians claim the the term "Maharashtra" came from an old Kannada word which meant "great forest" (or something to that effect).Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Dinesh, when Badagnani says 'Tamil Carnatic Musicians say' you reply with 'what Tamil Musicians say' there is a difference, every Carnatic Musician is definitely a Musician while not every Musician whether Tamil Musician or Kannada Musician can be deemed to be knowing Classical Music. Besides, what is the proof that before Purandaradasa there was no Classical or Karnataka or Carnatic Music. It is not as if civility originated either with Purandaradasa or that Music classical or otherwise became popularized only after getting the patronage of Vijayanagara Kings. For your information, the swaras of Classical Music and the classical dance poses (here kindly understand firmly, that no dance form especially the Bharatnatyam can be called classical dance unless it is accompanied by classical music) are engraved on the pillars of the Chidambaram temple where Bharata muni conceived the Bharata Natyam. It means that classical music existed in those times. When you consider that the Chidambaram Nataraja temple was constructed not by Cholas, Vijayanagara or even Pandya Kings (who merely did extra construction and expansion of this already existing temple), but by the Pallava King, Simha Vishnu who was also called Hiranyavarana, and that on these temple premises the mudras of Bharatanatyam dances have been engraved by which time Bharata Muni had conceived and introduced the Bharata Natyam dance, Which has to mean that at least with Bharatanatyam dance, classical music (complete in form and content and not at all dependent on what Purandara Daasa did centuries later) had found a companion. Probably for the first time anywhere in India, classical music (existing from many years if not centuries before)and classical dance had come into being as companions. I request you and other researchers at Wikipedia to visit the Chidambaram Temple plus indeed the Chola temples having musical pillars like the ones at Dharasuram, Tribhuvanam plus the Pandya temples at Madurai to know music to people outside of Karnataka. Let me add with even more strength that this particular classical form complete in each and every respect pre-existed Vijayanagara empire or Purandara Daasa and is indeed known to at least the people of Tamil Nadu (You might prefer the term Tamilakam) and Andhra and probably the people in Karnataka also. Probably what you are indeed referring to as Classical Dance is the cousin of Kathakali in Kerala, the Yakshagana which has been popular in Karnataka since medieval times. Both Vijayanagara and Purandara did not introduce any form of classical music at least to the Tamil people. What indeed was done by Purandara was to sing praises of the Vijayanagara Kings by devoting lines to the criticism of Chola King Kulothunga I on a comparable basis. [User: Srinivasan N|Srirangam99] (talk) 17.25, 21 February 2008 (IST) —Preceding comment was added at 11:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep your arguements in lower case. Its against wiki policy to write in uppercase because thats equivalent to "shouting".Dineshkannambadi (talk) 12:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is important and material. In English, this genre of music is known as Carnatic music, throughout India and the world. Other reliable and verifiable sources, including encyclopedias, use this title. Carnatic refers to a historic region of South India that used to span between the now-known states of Tamil Nadu, Andhra, and Karnataka. It is commonly accepted that Hindusthani music refers to music from the North, and Carnatic music refers to music from the South, and this is both sensible and current with what this genre of music is known as in English today. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree with the usage of "carnatic" as a region covering southern India, because perhaps thats how the British saw it. What I meant was, claiming that the term Karnataka in Karnataka Sangeeta Shastra comes from a Tamil word may be pure conjecture and needs to be proven with historical, literary and epigraphal evidence. Just pulling up a Tamil dictionary, finding a few words in it that resemble Karnataka and claiming that Karnataka comes from that is unacceptable. Musicians are not history experts, nor do they have indepth knowledge of epigraphy. Its a different story if historians like K.A.N. Sastri or epigraphists like I Mahadevan make that claim based on field studies and are backed by various other researchers to satisfy WP:UNDUE. Dineshkannambadi (talk) 12:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

But such evidence isn't always enough. The WP:UNDUE principle would work in many instances (especially where things can be proven beyond reasonable doubt, like the Earth example). Epigraphy can be much more complex, and much less certain - especially in this instance where researchers could probably just as easily rebutt one's research with their own. There is no absolute certainty on this topic, and it is little wonder why no truely reliable and verifiable source on this genre of music, goes into the topic of etymology. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Historians dont make it a habit to rebut research of others for they have to worry about their own repuation also, which is why the concept of "popular theory exists".Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

...yet, research in very obscure areas, like the one that is being discussed, often results in conflicting theories and one cannot be ascertained (with certainty) as the popular one. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Observation

While reading this article, I noticed this statement,

"According to some scholars,[4] Carnatic music shares certain classical music concepts with ancient Tamil music. The concept of Pann is related to Ragas used in Carnatic music.[9]. The rhythmic meters found in several musical forms (such as the Tiruppugazh) and other ancient literature, resemble the talas that are in use today[10][11]"

Can someone elucidate why this has to be in this article. Isnt it better in an article such as "Music of Tamilnadu". Why give undue attention to a music form that shares some resemblence to carnatic music. I am sure there are other music forms too which share similarities to Carnatic music. In addition, I think we need to take a careful look at the templates that provide us with names of past/present musicians. Looking at that part, It seems that the contents may be geographically lopsided.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 13:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Not really. These are the names of the most prominent Carnatic musicians worldwide. Please do elaborate how it 'seems' that the contents 'may be' geographically lopsided.

The attention is not 'undue'. If there are any similarities (to such a great extent) from other past music forms in, with reliable and verifiable sources to back it up, then please do mention it here. Otherwise, you may be seen to be suggesting something rather absurd; the statement is totally dependent on whether a mention is given to every other Ancient music form that shared similarities of such proportions.

Anyway, the talk page archive of this article may reveal more on this topic of why it had to be included. I felt it was not unreasonable to give a very brief mention, and this mention was enough to gain consensus among the editors involved in the dispute. The mention was also allowed as Thiruppugazhs have been (in the past), and still are a form that are frequently rendered in many Carnatic kutcheris. Obviously, there are other forms, but this seems most relevant as an example in today's context. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting anything absurd. I am asking what does that comment have to do with the "Origin and History" of Carnatic music". I will get to the template a little later.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Because it is an important source from which Carnatic music is derived, and therefore, played a part in the historical evolution of Carnatic music. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I dont see the article saying that Carnatic music is derived from ancient Tamil music. It only says "resembles" and "similar".Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Didn't notice that. Will make the edition soon. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Before you do that, please provide ISBN numbers and exact page numbers of the sources you refer to. I realise some Indian books dont have ISBN, but some form of ID is always available. This helps in the verification process. Please ensure that the theory is accepted by a wide range of scholars, not from a particualar geographical area.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 16:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The necessary information (to comply with Wikipedia's referencing policies) have already been provided. In this case, the book (referenced by another editor) is readily available and the prominent website has also published some/all of the material contained in the book. Ncmvocalist (talk) 23:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I am still working on response to earlier comments. To prove the obvious fact I am getting hard latest evidences based on information posted on official websites of a country and a reputed university. Since I will be on business seminar travels it may take a while to post it. However, I see interesting discussions going on in this section. It needs to be noted that information created by vested interest groups can not be objective evidences. They include other encyclopedia which may have roots to a particular country and defend the acts by that country when they had occupied other countries. Tailor made books following the philosophy ‘keep telling lies to younger generation hoping it becomes true one day’. Also it is requested from editors depending the current contents of the article to stay focused on answering questions than taking a stalling ‘Vithanda vaada’ (evasive) approach hoping that others give-up as in the past. Naadapriya (talk) 18:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The information is valid as far as Wikipedia's referencing policies are concerned, and removing such information would be in violation of another of Wikipedia's policy. Naadapriya's supposed personal business does not concern this article. Ncmvocalist (talk) 23:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Please dont use measly websites to prove such "great theories". Provide scholarly evidence from various scholars. Claiming carnatic music was born out of ancient Tamil music is a major claim. In the mean time, we should also examine how many scholars call Carnatic music, Karnataka music to give an opportunity for all scholars to voice their opinion here.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 01:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The claim isn't carnatic music was born out of ancient Tamil music - please stop misrepresenting what is being said. It is merely A source (of the many already mentioned) from which Carnatic music is derived - that is not a major claim. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Any reader who does not know about real history of South Indian Classical Music, Karnataka Sangeeta a.k.a Carnatic music, will be misled by current information on Carnatic Music. Major or minor, it is a wrong claim based on unregulated and self created websites. It violates the 'evidence' policy set by highly regulated Wikipedia in using references. It should be removed as suggested by many.Naadapriya (talk) 05:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Alternate spellings

While "Carnatic music" is the most common rendering of the name of this tradition in English, "Karnatak music" and "Karnatik music" are also seen. Badagnani (talk) 08:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Feel free to add it right away. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Just because it was made common by a specific group it can not change the fact that the original name is 'Karnataka Music'. It is in continous use since its birth by all music scholars, even as of Feb 10, 2008 by the scholars of presigious Mysore University while confeering a honorary doctorate degree to a famous Karnataka musician Dr Bala Murali Krisna. This issue is smilar to the fact that no one wants to call the city Chennai as Madras anymore though it was most commonly used wrong name for a long time. The original names if got changed due to wrong reasons should be brought back on sites such as Wikipedia whose purpose is to state accurate facts.Naadapriya (talk) 19:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

No, in fact "a specific group" had nothing to do with it. English-speaking scholars and enthusiasts of South Indian classical music, who are not of Indic descent, have tended to gravitate toward this spelling in recent decades, simply because the terms beginning with "K" have an orthography that is more similar to current Indic romanization conventions. Badagnani (talk) 19:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

"Karnataka music" is not commonly used (and in fact I have never seen this spelling) in the English-speaking world. This term would seem to refer to music only from the state of Karnataka, while Carnatic/Karnatak/Karnatic music is performed in many parts of India. Badagnani (talk) 19:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I Think you would find this interesting. Actually, I am more used to the term Karnataka music than Karnatak music, even in scholarly books on music. [7], [8], [9], [10], [11]. This are just a few examples. Many more are available with a simple google search and I dont think the authors are discussing "Music in Karnataka" but rather Carnatic music.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for this--are you sure, however, that the books are not referring to just music from the Karnataka state? Badagnani (talk) 20:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Lets go one link at at a time,

• Link #1 -->talks about Kuchipudi, a dance form in Kerela state and is not written by Kannadigas
• Link #2 -->starts the paragraph with Bharata Muni, the sage accredited with writing the early treatises but the content is too complex for me. You would find Bharata muni writen about both on Carnatic music and Bharatanatyam pages.
• Link 3--> All the music forms discussed (pg 157-159) are from Carnatic music and are on the current article (Kriti, Pallavi etc)
• Link 4--> Discusses interactions between Karnataka music with Kuchipudi (from Kerela)
• Link 5--->Is a tribute by Dr. Rajendra Prasad (1st. President of India) who calls Tyagaraja (from Tamil Nadu, who composed in Telugu language) as one among the great composers of Karnataka music. On the curren aticle, Tyagaraja is listed as one among the Trinity of Carnatic music.

Dineshkannambadi (talk) 21:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your great expertise. I see now that this terminology seems to be used by at least some Indians writing in the English language. I suggest an "Etymology" section presenting various sources to show which terms have been used--where and when (i.e., which terms have been used in the Western world, and by whom, and when the shift began from "Carnatic" to "Karnatak," as well as which terms have been used in India). Badagnani (talk) 21:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

""Karnataka music" is not commonly used (and in fact I have never seen this spelling) in the English-speaking world." - No. "Karnataka music" is quite commonly used by academia and scholars in the English-speaking world. R. Satyanarayana and N Ramanathan (of TamilNadu and Dean/Principal (former?) of the Madras Music College) are just two of many scholars who use "Karnataka music" in their works (english works). Several universities in India offer diplomas in "Karnataka music". Sarvagnya 22:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

As stated above, "I see now that this terminology seems to be used by at least some Indians writing in the English language." The term isn't widely used in the United States, Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, or South Africa. Badagnani (talk) 22:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Badagnani, Karnatak is just a North Indian way of saying Karnataka. A person from North India would call the father of Karnataka/Karnatak/Carnatic music "Purandaradas" where as in the south we call him "Purandaradasa", with the extra "a" at the end. This is something that is normal in India.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 00:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

More examples of Karnataka music, [12], [13], [14]Dineshkannambadi (talk) 00:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate knowing that. The question is, however, which Latinized form has been used where, when, and by whom (especially notable scholars). This should be addressed, with sources, in an "Etymology" section of the article. Badagnani (talk) 00:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Can Sarvagnya help in writing an etymology section here with solid citations for each variant name and perhaps an explanation how and why the names have changed and when? Better yet, the content of the section should be a combined effort. But first we need critical citations, as Badagnani said, which are the important sources and persons who use different names for the same music.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 12:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Need of the Hour

I see that this article has hit a road block due to two reasons. The first being an experienced user:Ncmvocalist who may have taken ownership of the article and is aggressively using questionable web sites to prove very important theories. The second reason is, a possible new user user:Naadapriya, who may have useful information, from reliable sources regarding the topic, but has failed (perhaps in haste and inexperience) to generate a cohesive, well cited paragraph explaining why Carnatic music is only an English version of "Karnataka music" (which we know is a fairly popular name used by scholars from across South India). But being a newcomer, he may still be in the process of learning how to bring data to the table, build concensus and give full citations. I really think his data should be given room for examination instead of trying to suffocate him out. All this may be frustrating the user:Naadapriya who seems to be at his wits end about it.

The need of the hour is to take the article back to where it was before the reverting started, examine each issue one by one or in conjunction, prove validity of citations, especially while claiming origins, which is naturally the most sensitive topic and hardest to prove.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 11:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Continuing from where I left off, I hope Naadapriya does not mind my criticism of his methods. I am only trying to help. It seems, from your comments, that you may have more knowledge about carnatic music than I do, for instance. This makes you all the more valuable to the article, if you can put together material in an acceptable way. Please take a look at the last paragraph in the "history" section, on "Instrumental music". It took me a month of reading and writing a subarticle on Musicians of Mysore Kingdom, to prove I had done sufficient study of the matter and that the era was a golden age of carnatic music before bringing that paragraph in (which none-the-less met with some minimal resistance from Ncmvocalist initially around Sept 9th 2007). No one can challenge such content. If you want to prove that Karnataka music was born in Karnataka, you need to put together a paragraph that is clear and full of valid citations, properly prosed to avoid POV and to the point. I hope this helps.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 13:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Synthesis, weaseling and what not!

“ According to some scholars,[4] ancient Tamil music is a source from which Carnatic music is derived as both styles of music share certain unique classical music concepts. The concept of Pann is considered to be a precursor to the Raga system in Carnatic music,[9] [10] while the rhythmic meters found in several musical forms (such as the Tiruppugazh) and other ancient literature, resemble the talas that are in use today.[11][12] ”

I've wasted weeks pointing out the obvious nonsense in the above paragraph (and other assorted nonsense) before. Let us do it one more time. Here we go -

According to some scholars,[4] ... - classic weasel . not to mention that [4] is non-RS.

ancient Tamil music is a source from which Carnatic music is derived as both styles of music share certain unique classical music concepts... - that is a paraphrase of what the non-RS [4] says. Neither Sambamurthy nor any other sources go that far.

The concept of Pann is considered to be a precursor to the Raga system in Carnatic music,[9] [10] - oh really? Lets see what Sambamurthy says -

Sambamurthy says (if the cherry picked sources are to be believed) -

1. The pans of the Thevaram are historically old ragas (page 91); - the panns of the Tevaram?? The very verses dating from the 8th or 10th(or later) AD? Or were there some Thevarams before even Bharata's natya shastra(2nd-4th BC) or even Matanga's Brhaddesi(7-8th CE) which give us the earliest descriptions of Ragas were penned? Or the Ramayana and Mahabharata which have references to "Raga".. or the Sama Veda (Sama gana) which by common consensus is the 'precursor' to modern Indian classical music and all its technical baggage.
2. It is in the pans of the Thevaram that we first come across full-fledged bhashanga ragas" (page 91); - thevaram again!
3. "The pans of Tevaram are all jiva ragas"(page 92)” - and again!

So what is Sambamurthy talking about when he talks of the panns of the thevaram. I will tell you. He's simply pointing out in passing, as academically as he can, the similarities between the two systems. That doesnt mean the Carnatic raga owes anything to the pann! For that matter, musicologists routinely throw in tidbits about the similarities between all the musical traditions of the world. That doesnt mean we conclude that Indian music gave birth to the music of Timbuktu or vice-versa!

So, can someone explain to me how one arrived at "Pann is considered to be a precursor to the Raga system in Carnatic music,.." from 1, 2 and 3 above?

And in any event, Sambamurthy's allusions to the panns belong (after careful and critical study of its meaning and context) in the Raga article. Not here.

"...while the rhythmic meters found in several musical forms (such as the Tiruppugazh) and other ancient literature, resemble the talas that are in use today.[11][12]..."

Ohh.. now we cut to the Arunagirinathar's 15th century!! 15th century - 3 full centuries after Sharngadeva's encyclopaediac Sangita Ratnakara!...(not to mention, Vidyaranya's Sangita sara). And we are to believe that the theory of the Tala was still waiting for its 'precursor'(?)! And pray, what is that thing about "...and other ancient literature..."?!! Would someone bother spelling out?

Given the amount of bad faith weaseling and the out of context twisting of cherry picked sound bites that has gone into putting that paragraph together, the authors of that para and those who are edit warring to keep it, owe us an explanation. Mere "rv removal of cited information" is not going to fly. Sarvagnya 00:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Move of Current Title to the Correct Original Name

Based on the valid justifications given by many the title of the article need to be changed to 'Karnataka Music' from current 'Carnatic Music'. It needs to be done soon unless immediate verifiable evidences are shown to prove that music scholars of caliber MS, RKS, BMK, Chembai and similar, respected by all South Indian states, have formally and publicly accepted 'Carnatic Music' as an equivalent name for the original name 'Karnataka Sangeeta or Sangeetam'. Ad-hoc use by some or existence in some dictionaries are not valid justifications as per Wikipedia guidelines. For sure weaselings can not be accepted. After moving, modifications will be suggested within the current format of the article to include the valid suggestions made by editors. Ad-hoc locking of the article by admn as in the past will imply as a consent to start a new article on 'Karnataka Music'. Use of unwarranted words such as vandalism, spam, disruptive, threat, babbling etc. and bringing unrelated linguistic issues by editors in responses to this discussion will be reported to higher Wikipedia staff as unfriendly/stalling approaches, and blocking will be requested.

After move the first 2 paragraphs need to be written as:

---

Template:IndicText Karnataka music which in English is named as ‘Carnatic Music’ (also known in South Indian languages as Karnataka Sangeeta or Sangeetam) is one of the two styles of Indian classical music, the other being Hindustani music. Its classical tradition is from the southern part of the Indian subcontinent, and its area roughly corresponds to the four modern Indian states; Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala, and Tamil Nadu.

The present form of Karnataka or Carnatic music is based on documented developments that can be traced to the early 15th century CE after its seminal founding by Purandara Dasa who is revered by all music scholars as the father of Karnataka classical music (Karnataka Sangeeta Pitamaha). Though not all but some elements in the formation of this extensive and innovative new musical form might have resulted from the systematic scientific study of various scattered forms of Dravidian, Aryan and possibly Persian music existed in India before 15th century.

---

Protest to above valid changes without giving verifiable hard evidences respected by all reputed scholars particularly those from South Indian states will be considered as a consent to start a new article on ‘Karnataka Music’ to state accurate facts. Grammar improvements are welcome.

After making immediately needed above major changes in the interest of popular Wikipedia users, the rest of the article needs to be further modified as per other valid suggestionsNaadapriya (talk) 09:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Some editors are tainting this article with unrelated language issues. It is requested that those editors should revisit their ‘kuuppa Manduka’ (Self centered ) approach read the history of Karnataka Sangeeta with the perspective of present day Karnataka Music or Carnatic music practiced by whole world. They will clearly see the framework that Sri Purandara Daasa laid-out for Karnataka Music. As many scholars say Sri Purandara Daasa was an institution than just an individual and therefore he could create such an unique and great music form. World has seen similar great institutions through great people such as Gandhi in humanitarian, Kamaraj in politics, Visweshwaraya in technology, Ramadasa in devotion, Raja Ravi Verma in art, Vivekananda in religion, Basavanna in caste system reform, RamaSwamy Naiker in social reform, RajKumar in movie world so on and on. One needs to visit those institutions with open mind keeping language affiliations on the side. With this I rest my case and focus on editing as disclosed above.Naadapriya (talk) 22:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia rules state that we use the most commonly used English name for our titles. "Carnatic music" is that name. Badagnani (talk) 22:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. We just need to work out a good Etymology section for other historical names. Also, we need to ensure that only what directly concerns Carnatic music needs to be included. Whether other forms of music bear resemblences & similarities to Carnatic music is not pertinent to the current topic. Music forms across the world resemble each other in one way or the other. Providing endless details of that is distracting and unnecessary.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 22:38, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The guideline says

‘Generally, WP:article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.’

It is guideline and not a hard-set rule. Any guideline needs to have an exception when comes to accuracy of facts and so does Wikipedia’s guideline. For words that have origins from outside English world, the original name takes over equivalent names created for convenience of specific group. Typical example is the article on WP:Chennai. It is important to know that NOONE, not even British formally named ‘Karnataka Music’ as also ‘Carnatic Music’. Also one does not see in any reputed dictionary that ‘Carnatic Music’ is referred to as South Indian Classical music. Not even in about 1800 pages (about 270000 words) Webster’s dictionary published by highly reputed publisher ‘Gramercy Books’ of NewYork. At the most some say ‘Carnatic’ is a name of a certain province in South India during Mogul period. Minor technical issues of language is secondary when comes to accuracy of the facts. One of the dangers of using ad-hoc names created by specific groups for political reasons in titles is that it will give provision to distort of facts, as it has happened in this article. I guess Dineshkannambadi is mentioning that. To be accurate the title should be Karnataka Music. In addition Wikipedia is already redirecting to ‘Carnatic Music’ when you search for ‘Karnataka Music’ If needed use of Carnatic’ can be explained in the body.

If this article is left as is a separate article is needed under the title ‘Karnataka Music’ to state accurate facts for Wikipedia readers.Naadapriya (talk) 01:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I have no opinion on this issue, but let me point out that the Oxford English Dictionary lists both "Karnatak(a)" and "Carnatic" (among others) as acceptable variants. It also provides citations for each of the forms, many from the second half of the 20th century. Of course, that still doesn't answer the question of which variant is more widespread-- it may well turn out that "Karnataka" is in fact the most common.

I should also point out that it is not always the case that "[f]or words that have origins from outside English world, the original name takes over equivalent names created for convenience of specific group". For example, we always speak of Confucius and Mencius, not "Kong Zi" and "Meng Zi", as they are called in Chinese. Priests in Hinduism are nearly always called "Brahmins", even though the Sanskrit word has no "i". The list could go on. The point is that there isn't any rule that words for foreign concepts should always take the form used in the original language (though that is increasingly the case); decisions on these matters should follow usage rather than principle (especially on an encyclopedia like this). --Śiva (talk) 16:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Thats a good piece of info. We need solid citations like this to create an Etymology section.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 16:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello Siva: Thanks for your constructive and reasoable comments. I agree that it may be OK to use equivalent words if it helps majority as long as the original word is fully acknowledged and its meaning is not distorted. Unfortunately in the case using ‘Carnatic Music’ as English equivalent to the original ‘Karnataka Music’ there is an effort to distort real facts that are proven with current practices and well documented history. This is what several editors are pointing out and trying to correct again and again for the article ‘Carnatic Music’Naadapriya (talk) 20:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:Article naming is not a mere guideline, but an official policy. There is no distortion of facts, and no current practices or documented history that state so. This form of music has been widely acknowledged as Carnatic music, whether it is online (try a simple google search) or in several publications. So far, the editor who has pushed for these changes has not produced any valid 'evidences' per Wikipedia's referencing policy. Whatever few 'evidences' given appears to be purely been based on synthesis, and perhaps original research, again suggesting that these changes are POV. If this is not the case, the editor is welcome to show otherwise. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Again above the previous editor is using Stalling approach. He is requested to read the meaning of ‘Generally’. To date he has not rebutted above observations on distortions with validated evidences. Several others have also pointed out in discussions wrong information. Novocalist is requested to read all of them before he goes round and round and stalling the progress. The inappropriate titled ‘Carnatic Music ‘ article itself has several references about the correct original name ‘Karnataka Music’ It is strange that he his asking evidence again. It is just like ‘one not seeing a well in daytime that all could see in the night time’. Telling that original name of South Classical music is Karnataka Sangeeta (Sangeetam Music) is just like telling obvious fact that Sun is source of light. Also it is like asking one to prove the obvious fact that ‘English’ is language that British speak. However, let me add some more important reference to the long list already readers have seen for the purpose of educating those giving wrong messages.

1)‘Karnataka Music as Aesthetic form’ ISBN 8187586168 by Mahamahopadhyaya Dr. R. Sathyanarayana who belongs to the third generation of the sisya-parampara (disciple) of the saint-composer Sri Thyagaraja, one of the most prominent composers.

2) KARNATAK MUSIC. Volumes I to III. P.Sambamurti. Indian Music Publishing House. Madras, 1976, 1978, 1976.

3) KARNATAKA SANGEETHADHA LAKSHYA LAKSHANA SANGRAHA. Prof. Mysore V. Ramarathnam. University of Mysore, Prasaranga. Mysore.

4)KARNATAKA SANGEETHA KRITIRACHANA SANGRAHA. Prof. Mysore V. Ramarathnam. Volume I. University of Mysore. Mysore. 1992.

5) KARNATAKA SANGEETHA SUDHA. Prof. Mysore V. Ramarathnam, Dr. V.S. Sampathkumaracharya. Volumes I and II. University of Mysore. Mysore. 1967.

6) KARNATAKA SANGITAM. Higher Grade Practice and Theory.Vinai A.Sundaram Iyer. Music Book Publishers. Madras. 1976,1977.

7) KARNATAKA SANGITAM. Lower Grade. Vinai A.Sundaram Iyer. Music Book Publishers. Madras. 1977.

8) KARNATIC MUSIC READER. Parts 1 to 4. Dr.S.Bhagyalekshmy. CBH Publications. Kerala. 1996,1997,1997,1998.

9)Karnataka Sangeeta Sastra : Theory of Carnatic Music/A.S. Panchapakesa Iyer. Translated by T.T. Vijayaraghavan. Chennai, Ganamrutha Prachuram, 2001, x, 110 p.

10)Karnaataka Apoorva Raaga Compositions Index/compiled by R. Anantha Subrahmanya Iyer. Chennai, Karnatic Music, 2000, 124 p.

11) Karnataka Sangeetha Malika, A.D. Madhavan , 2007, DC Books, Kotyam

One can go on and on giving such references. In addition one can quote live examples associated with prominent Karnataka musicians respected by all South Indian States.

1) Tamil Nadu’s MS_Subbulakshmi accepted in 1974 Ramon Magsaysay international award for her contributions to ‘classical and semi-classical songs in the Karnataka tradition of South India’ (quote from awards official website[15])

2) Most Kerala website posts Chembai as well known Karnataka Music Artist

3) Andhra’s Dr. Bala Murali Krishna accepted honorary doctorate degree from Mysore university for contributions to Karnataka Sangeeta (Feb 2007)

4) In live interview posted on 28/04/2004 reported by ‘oneindia’ South Indian portal Sangeeta Kalanidhi (honor given by Tamil Naadu to artist from Karnataka)) RKS refers to South Indian Music as only Karnataka Sangeeta.

5) on and on

On the other hand defenders of Carnatic Music as original title have not provided any evidence by authors respected in all South Indian States. Most references are like ‘Monday morning quarter backing’ by those from a specific state who are pushing to use ‘Carnatic’ word. As pointed out by others in the discussions they are all Weasel

Hope the commenting editor understands that Google search just points out existence of information but does not endorse the accuracy of information. If one goes by Google search then they can find many numbers responses for “Karnataka Sangeeta Pitamaha’. But Wikipedia relays upon hard evidences not on volume of results from a search engine. The false evidences provided to date about ‘Carnatic Music’ as original name and distorted information are all Weasel.

As mentioned in above Naadapriya is not for completely eliminating the use of ‘Carnatic Music’ which some how got attached to the original name ‘Karnataka Music’. It needs to be well conveyed that it is an equivalent name for the original ‘Karnataka Music’.

To date adequate evidences are given to prove 'Karnataka Sangeeta (Music) is the original name for South Indian Classical Music. In future Naadpriya may not answer vague comments that stall the progress. He will reply to specific comments supported by valid evidences. Focus on making needed changes through Admns. Naadapriya (talk) 05:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think any of us doubts that karnāṭaka saṃgīta is indeed the original name of this style of music, in Sanskrit. What is in question is whether it is the most commonly used name in English. To prove this, it would be necessary to show that an overwhelming majority of reputed English-language books (websites may be discredited) on this subject use the term "Karnataka", not only in their titles, but also in the main text. (I mention this because the titles of books 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 are not strictly English, but are rather Sanskrit words, and thus do not prove or disprove the case.) The fact that Sambhamoorthy uses "Karnatak" (actually the Hindi form) is certainly evidence in favor of your case. Likewise with Bhagyalekshmy and "Karnatic". But the trouble here is that even experts differ as to the exact form. Karnataka? Karnatak? Karnatic? Karnatik? How do we decide, if the decision is to be based solely on (reputable) usage?

Also, a distinction must be made between Karnataka music (and variants) and Karnataka Sangeetha (and variants). Works that refer to "Karnataka Sangeetha" may be using the term as a Sanskrit word, whereas works that refer to "Karnataka music" use the term as an English word. In my opinion, only instances of "Karnataka music" would count as evidence in favor of "Karnataka" over "Carnatic". --Śiva (talk) 16:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I perfectly agree with this the most logical explanation to date. Yes the title should be 'Karnataka Music'Naadapriya (talk) 18:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Karnatic would not be in favour of his case, as it is merely another way of spelling the word Carnatic. The editor has been very specific in arguing his case that the commonly used term as Karnataka - the name of the Indian state. References 3-7 onwards do nothing to prove/disprove his case, while reference 8 directly disproves his case. Example 2 is both vague and would not qualify as a reference, while 3 is easily rebutted by S.Bhagyalakshmy's book "Carnatic Music Compositions" published by CBH Publications. Also, S.Ramanathan seems to refer to it as Carnatic music in his research as a musicologist at a university in Connecticut (S.Ramanathan, unlike Balamurali, received the Sangita Kalanidhi award as a musicologist rather than for his singing or composing abilities). There are several interviews by contemporary artists that call it Carnatic music, and on and on. Vedambooks calls their books "Carnatic books" [16] and there are several publications detailed under this URL that are in support of the title being Carnatic. There are several organisations that also use the word Carnatic, including Carnatica (founded by Sowmya), The international foundation for Carnatic music (founded by N. Ravikiran) to name a few. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Above websites fall into the category of 'Monday Morning quarter Backing' as they say in US. Most above evidences are recently created to push a wrong message. One needs to show evidences at least respected by all states of South India not by some group from one state pushing a word for political reasons. To date no one has seen anyone writing 'Carnatic Sangeeta or Sangeetam' in Kannada, Telugu, Sanskrit, Tamil or Malayalam. They write either 'Karnataka Sangeeta' or 'Karnataka Sangeetam'. Therefore 'Karnataka Music' is the best choice for the title. Other names can be explained in the body of the article.Naadapriya (talk) 18:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Naadapriya appears to fail to understand the policies used at Wikipedia. In any case, Sangita Kalanidhis R.Vedavalli & S.Ramanathan, as well as Bombay Jayashri, T.M.Krishna, S.Bhagyalaksmy, P.Sambamurthy, N.Ravikiran are just a few of the prominent names of the authors of these books who use 'Carnatic'. This is English Wikipedia - not any other language. Kerala, Chennai, New Delhi are just a few places where these books have been published. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Again above references (some are weasles) are efforts by a specific group possibly with origin from one state ( not by all)to modify the well documented history after about 500 years use of the original name Karnataka Sangeeta (Sangeetam) or Music. Looks like most of them that fall into 'Loose cannon' type were made up for political reasons after Mysore state was renamed as Karnataka State. If South Indian Classical Music is not called originally 'Karnataka Music ' one can wonder whether MS, world's best female musician to date from Tamil Nadu would have endorsed international Magsaysay awards citation (See above) that clearly states that the South Indian Classical Music is 'Karnataka Music'! Quoting those comtemprary musicians with less caliber than MS, RKS, BMK and Chembai is a stalling approach. The history of Karnataka Music is crystal clear after SRi Purandara Daasa founded it in early 15th century and it does not require musicologist to rewrite the original name. Trinity spent valuable time to take it to new highs but not to rewrite the history.

All know English Wikipedia is a not about language it is about information in English language. Hope someone can explain this to the above commenting editor in a better way. Hope he knows that Chennai is in English Wikipedia!Naadapriya (talk) 09:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Again with your POV and speculative information. First off, it is POV to assume MS was the world's best female musician. Secondly, MSS cannot endorse it as she has passed away, so stop speculating. Thirdly, talking about mentioned 'musicians being of less caliber' is AGAIN your subjective POV. Forthly, nobody accused the trinity of rewriting history so please stop stalling yourself. Finally, your inappropriate behaviour will be reported to the admins if you continue to fail to comply with talk page guidelines, which specifically state that editors are to discuss content only - not contributors. Make believe accusations and personal attacks against editors of Wikipedia again fail to comply with talk page guidelines. Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

One should stop misinterpreting edits by other editors just to make-up a compliant. For e.g. the evidence provided above was the statement from the official web site of Ramon Magsaysay award not MS herself as interpreted in the previous comment. Again based on solid evidences (Bharata Ratna, Ramon Magsaysay award, invited UN concert etc) Naadapriya still defends that MS is the best female singer from Tamil Naadu that Karnataka music world has seen as of to date. This is NOT POV. Improper use of ‘POV’ will dilute its meaning. Comment on comment by is not a comment on editor or reference. Again use of word is 'Personal attack' is unwarranted. It has been reminded several time and also brought to the attention of Admns about repeated misuse of words.Naadapriya (talk) 08:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Sources: Western scholars

• The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians - "Karnatak."
• David Nelson - "Karnatak."[17]
• David Reck - "Carnatic"[18][19]
• T. Temple Tuttle - "Karnatic."[20]
• Barbara Benary - "Karnatic."[21]
• Matthew Allen - "Karnatak."[22]
• Bruno Nettl - "Carnatic."[23]
• Michael S. Kinnear - "Karnatic."[24]
• Linda Fujie - "Carnatic."[25]
• Daniel M. Neuman - "Karnatak."[26]
• Philip V. Bohlman - "Karnatak."[27]
• David P. McAllester - "Carnatic"/"Karnataka."[28]
• Kelly Boyle - "Karnatic."[29]
• Bonnie Wade - "Karnatak"/"Carnatic."[30]
• Rolf Groesbeck - "Carnatic."[31]
• Trichy Sankaran - "Karnatak."[32]

Badagnani (talk) 03:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Sources: General

I am only presenting those google searche results that have several pages for reading, not the snippets.

• Ralph Alexander Smith - "Karnataka" [33]
• Simon Broughton - "Karnatic" [34]
• R.K. Narayan - "Karnataka" [35]
• Charles Yesalis - "Carnatic" [36]
• Peter Leavezzoli - "Karnatak" [37]
• Saraswati Baidyanath - "Karnataka" [38]
• William Joseph Jackson - "Karnataka" [39]
• Alain Daniélou - "Karnataka" - [40]
• S.p.ruhela - Karnataka music school in Tamil Nadu [41]
• Martin Banham - "Karnataka" [42]
• Rajendra Prasad - "Karnataka" [43]
• Devi, Nirmala - "Karnataka" [44]
• James R. Brandon - "Karnataka" [45]
• Thomas P. Lewis - "Karnataka" [46]

I am sure one can find numerous usages of other names as well.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 01:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - It's not a good idea to "prove" that "Karnataka" applies to Carnatic music when the mention is strictly to the "Karnataka College of Music" or Karnataka College of Percussion (which is the case in more than one of the above examples), which is located in Karnataka. That would be similar to "proving" that Western classical music is really called "Manhattan music" because there is a school called the Manhattan School of Music. Badagnani (talk) 01:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I think we need such links to books/publications by various Indian/South Indian historians and scholars too. But one needs to keep in mind that many English books written in India may not be available on google search, which is a pity.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

On related matter, most scholars have accepted the words that had origin from other languages in to English. One example is irrigation project related word ’Anecut’ a Kannada word that was originally invented I guess during Vijayanaga period. Anecut is used as is in technical books written in English. There is no evidence that English speaking world attempted to advocate a parallel name for ‘Karnataka Music’ as ‘Carnatic Music’. It is a specific group from India that is trying to push for short sighted political reasons. All scholars give respect to the original word that came with a particular language and use as is. It applies to the many English words that Indian languages use as is. I do not think that any western English scholar will object to use the original name ‘Karnataka Music’ as the title. It is just like using the original name Chennai instead of Madras. The founder Sri Purandara Daasa is revered by all South Indian respected music scholars as ‘Karnataka Sangeeta Pitamaha’ NOT as either ‘Carnatic Sangeetha Pitamaha ‘, or ‘ Karnatic Sangeeta Pitamaha’ or ‘Karnatak Sangeeta Pitamaha’ that sound odd. Quite often people from North may be due to Mogul influence chop-off the words from South by habit but not by any purpose to offend. Ex is 'Karnatak' or 'Karnatic' instead of correct word 'Karnataka'. It does not mean to say one should change the original word. The correct title for the this article if it needs to represent South Indian classical Music is ‘Karnataka Classical Music’Naadapriya (talk) 23:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Naadapriya, can you find web links for the items #1 to #8 you provided up/earlier. These books may be available on google search. We need to establish how many well known Indian scholars use the term "Karnataka". This is important. If google search is not available, scanned pages are fully valid and can be scrutinized by a neutral party.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 00:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

May we be certain that the editor will not selectively choose only sources that serve his/her preferred version of the term? The mode of argument I've seen suggests that this will be the case. In my case, I simply looked up the North American scholars who are best known for their studies and performance of South Indian classical music, without regard for which version of the music's name I prefer. Badagnani (talk) 00:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, google search is available for all of us. I am sure a simple search will pull up several Indian writers and their mode of usage will become apparent. Data which has been brought so far by different users shows that all the discussed names are used quite often, Carnatic music perhaps being the "the most often". We are only trying to satisfy the needed data to settle on the etymology.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 01:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

What makes you think we don't have the needed data? Scanning or producing references with texts made available online, has never been a requirement. In any case, this long list of titles that use the word Carnatic:

• Aesthetic and Scientific Values in Carnatic Music/lecture-demonstrations by Vidya Shankar. Chennai, Parampara, 1997, viii, 255 p., (pbk). Details No. 30895

• Aesthetic and Scientific Values in Carnatic Music, Vol. II/Vidya Shankar. Chennai, Parampara, 2005, xiii, 196 p., (pbk). Details No. 44721

• The Art and Science of Carnatic Music/Vidya Shankar. Reprint. Chennai, Parampara, 1999, vii, 216 p., (pbk). Details No. 30894

• Core of Karnatic Music (Karnataka Sangeethamrutham)/A.D. Madhavan. Kerala, Music Zone, 2003, 626 p., Details No. 34334

• Institutionalised Teaching System of Carnatic Music/T. Unnikrishnan. New Delhi, Agam Kala Prakashan, 2006, xii, 138 p., ISBN 81 7320 068 8. Details No. 45616

• Laksana and Laksya of Carnatic Music : A Quest/T.V. Manikandan. New Delhi, Kanishka, 2004, xiii, 219 p., tables, ISBN 81-7391-659-4. Details No. 36575

• Krti Samskrti (Krti Tradition in Karnatak Music)/Lalita Ramakrishna. Bangalore, Kalpatharu Research Academy, 2006, xv, 264 p., Details No. 45609

• Perfecting Carnatic Music, Level 2 : Varnams and Krtis/Chitravina N. Ravikiran. Chennai, The International Foundation for Carnatic Music India, 2005, vii, 120 p.,(pbk). Details No. 41107

• Raga Pravaham : Index to Carnatic Ragas/M.N. Dhandapani and D. Pattammal. Revised and Enlarged Edition. Chennai, The Karnatic Music Book Center, 2002, 286 p., (pbk). Details No. 40332

• Raga Sudha : Understanding Carnatic Music/B.R.C. Iyengar. Secunderabad, B.R.C. Iyengar, 2003, vii, 184 p., (pbk). Details No. 40319

• Ragas in Carnatic Music/S. Bhagyalekshmy. Reprint. Nagercoil, CBH Pub., 2003, xi, 384 p., tables, (pbk). ISBN 81-85381-12-7. Details No. 40495

• Sangita Sampradayam : A Collection of Lectures on Carnatic Music, Vol. I/Sangita Kalanidhi R. Vedavalli. Chennai, Devaganavali Trust, 2005, 96 p., (pbk) (Vol. I). Details No. 43793

• Voices Within Carnatic Music : Passing on an Inheritance/Bombay Jayashri and T.M. Krishna. Chennai, Matrka, 2007, xii, 178 p., ISBN 81-7525-555-2. Details No. 49738

• What is Carnatic Music?/Vidya Bhavani Suresh. Chennai, Skanda Pub., 2002, 32 p., (pbk). [Demystifying Fine Arts-Volume-10]. Details No. 30984

as well as the titles above it make it pretty clear that 'Carnatic music' is what is in usage today. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Obvious observation. Dr Madavan book whose title includes 'Karnataka' does not fall into the category to justify the use of yet to be proved equivalent name 'Carnatic Music'. The rest above references were written after Mysore state was renamed as Karnataka State in 1973!. Any authentic references before that to show that music scholars respected by all South Indian states formally gave an equivalent name to Karnataka Sangeeta, the original name known since early 15th century when Sri Purandara Daasaru founded it.? Naadapriya (talk) 03:48, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Nobody denies that Carnatic music is the name that is most widely used "English" name, but that is not what we are trying to prove or disprove here. We are trying to find a basis for a correct etymology section with all popularly used names. Also, Its not for you alone to decide what methods have to be used.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 02:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Nadapriya was arguing that the article should be called "Karnataka music" - which under WP:NAME is only possible if "Karnataka music" is more commonly recognised by readers than the English form. To that extent, the question of which is the more widely used English name is very relevant. If you agree that "Carnatic music" is the most widely used English name, do you also agree that changing the article title to "Karnataka music" as Nadapriya wants is against policy? -- Arvind (talk) 09:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

hi arvind: Wish you had participated in the discussions from the beginning and read all discussions in detail. Naadapriya is not against Wikipedia policy. See similar e.g. chennai. Also he is not trying to eliminate the use of 'Carnatic music' if it is convenient to majority. All know English formally allows use of original words as is, e.g. Anecut, Bungalow. Here another main issue about this article as mentioned earlier is the distortion of facts about 'Karnataka Music' under the pretext of using the equivalent English name 'Carnatic Music' (no proof that British endorsed it). Allowing the use of equivalent name as title that came about 500 years later for reasons not well known may further facilitate more distortion of facts (see above discussion). Using original name in the title as for e.g. chennai and explaining the use of equivalent words in the text should be logical for all and Wikipedia readers will understand that. Use of words in Wikipedia is not based on popularity or a weasel web contest. Accuracy of information is of primary importance It is OK for the existing title if it wants to represent contributions to South Indian Classical music music from a specific state. As many evidences are already provided in this discussion, the word ‘Karnataka ‘ is widely used in English literature and dictionaries and 'Karnataka Music' is the undisputed original name for South Indian Classical Music and that should be the title if the article wants to represent complete South Indian classical Music.Naadapriya (talk) 19:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I've read the discussion quite well, thank you. -- Arvind (talk) 20:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

We are not in this debate to do anything aganist Wiki policy. This exercise is only to work out an eymology section per Badagnani's original comment, which I am sure is per wiki poicy.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 14:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Fine, as long as we're agreed that the name should stay as it is, it'll make it easier to put that to one side and focus on the etymology. You know I'm usually in favour of native names for places - I argued for Bangalore to be moved to its official name, Bengaluru - but applying it to things like this would be a step too far, I think. Anyway, if it's not an issue I'd better not ramble on. -- Arvind (talk) 20:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

One can not understand the statement 'but applying it to things like this would be a step too far'. Word is a word in encyclopedia. Wikipedia does not apply different rules to different words. Rules are same whether it is 'Chennai', 'Bengaluru', or 'Karnataka Music' when using the original names. Also none of the editors is 'rambling', all are discussing. Appropriate choice of words in discussion is requested.Naadapriya (talk) 08:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

This link in Encyclopaedia Britannica should give a fair dea what the word Carnatic itself means and how it has changed over the centuries (page 361, column 2).[47].Dineshkannambadi (talk) 03:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

If the southern "Carnatic" region was Tiruchirapalli that would be right in the middle of what is today Tamil Nadu. Ongole (the northern "Carnatic" region) is in Andhra Pradesh. Badagnani (talk) 03:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Badagnani, Carnatic music did not reach its current state of development during the British Raj, but rather in the 15-16th century, long before the British or the Moguls could take control and misapply names. Carnatic music reached this standard of classicalness during the rule of Vijayanagara Empire, which ruled from Karnataka.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 03:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It depends on what you mean by "this standard of classicalness." Much of its "current state of development", both in "sastra" and "prayoga" is definitely post-Vijayanagara. The creation of a whole range of new ragas taking the number of actual (as opposed to theoretical) melas up from 19 to 72 and the concept of melakarta ragas, janakaragas and janya ragas - all of which are at the core of modern Carnatic music - did not develop during the Vijayanagara period, but much later in the courts of Mysuru, Thanjavur and Thiruvithamkoor. Ultimately, as far as etymology is concerned, it boils down to the question of when the label "Karnataka" was first applied to the music, but as far as the history of the music form is concerned, things are more complex. -- Arvind (talk) 09:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

• "Much of its "current state of development", both in "sastra" and "prayoga" is definitely post-Vijayanagara." -- Not exactly. Not really. All advances in musicology in Tanjore, Mysore and travancore proceeded from where Vijayanagara tradition had left off. Increase in ragas from 19 to 72 also was based on consolidation/tweaking/improvising/improving existing musicological traditions and concepts. Thyagaraja acknowledges the contribution of the Haridasas(Vijayanagara period). Maratha king and musicologist Serfoji(?) acknowledges it. Various treatises acknowledge it. No art form of the level of sophistication of Carnatic music can evolve overnight. To point to an evolutionary stage that immediately preceded its present state and claim that this immediate predecessor was the be all and end all of its evolution is rather simplistic. Purandara Dasa's teaching models are still being used today and these are models that date back to Vijayanagara.. not the Tanjore of the Marathas or the Mysuru of the Wodeyars.
• "Ultimately, as far as etymology is concerned, it boils down to the question of when the label "Karnataka" was first applied to the music" -- I agree. And if memory serves me right, I remember reading somewhere that it was Vidyaranya's(?) Sangita sara or perhaps even Haripala Deva (like u say below) who first used the term to describe this form of music. I read it a long long time ago and I'm afraid I will need to dig fairly deep into my hopelessly disorganised bookmarks to find it.. or perhaps may even need to revisit libraries and hunt down many books I'd read long ago. I'm positive I can find it.. but it may take a long time given the fact that I'm far too busy in RL than my participation in WP over the last few weeks may suggest. Sarvagnya 21:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

To point to an evolutionary stage that immediately preceded its present state and claim that this immediate predecessor was the be all and end all of its evolution is rather simplistic. I wouldn't disagree. But similarly, to point to the Vijayanagara period, or the Sangita Ratnakara, or the Brhaddesi, or the Natyasastra, and claim that that's the be-all and end-all of Carnatic music is also simplistic. And that's the point I was trying to make. -- Arvind (talk) 08:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. But, given the fact that Purandaradasa is caled "Father of Carnatic music" and that he graced the Vijayanagara courts gives us one clear indication; that a major development in the art must have happened during that time, something no one will dispute, or that honorific would not have been applied to him. Having said his, I believe we should not draw a line based on our convinience at some historical point either.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 16:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It's clear that Purandaradasa's systematisation of Carnatic music was a pretty major development and that's it's traditionally be seen as being of foundational importance for Carnatic music today. But was that the origin of the title "Carnatic music", or was it later, or possibly even earlier? In Vijayanagara itself, the term "Chaturdandi" was quite commonly used - even Venkatamakhin called his treatise Chaturdandi Prakashika, rather than Karnataka sangita prakashika or some such thing. On the other hand, a few Tamil books I've read say that the term "Karnataka sangita" was first used in Sangita sudhakara, a treatise written in the early 14th century by Haripala Deva (who, apparently, was a Western Chalukya king who, on being deposed, repaired to Srirangam where he composed the work on the banks of the Cauvery). It'd be fascinating if this were true, but Haripala Deva's text appears to have never been published - it only exists in manuscript form - so I have no idea how to check. Other sources simply say that he was the first to mention the distinction between the northern and southern styles. -- Arvind (talk) 20:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

What the article tried to explain is not to misconstrue what the word Carnatic means. Depending on which period is under consideration, the geography of Carnatic changed. Which is why the book cays Carnatic or Karnatak (Kannada, Karnata, Karnataka Desa) which it tried to justify is the original meaning. In other words, all these words mean the same thing.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 03:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, Caldwell, to whom the Britannica refers, gives a slightly different explanation, as does Hobson-Jobson (both suggest that the term included parts of the Telugu-speaking country in ancient times). Monier-Williams very unhelpfully says "central districts of the peninsula, including Mysore," which suggests that parts of the Telugu-speaking country may have been included, but isn't that clear either way. -- Arvind (talk) 09:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for this useful information. What do the extant sources from the 15th century (or subsequent centuries) call this musical style -- in all of the written languages in use in the South Indian regions where it was performed? Badagnani (talk) 03:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

This we will no doubt have to nail down, and should not be impossible. There should be info on all the musical treatises written in the late medieval era and the modern era as well.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 03:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. It is important to figure out exactly when the term was applied, and which part of southern India it was intended to encompass. But it's difficult to find scholarly secondary sources on this, and I am a little concerned that primary sources will not necessarily explain what region they mean when they refer to the "Karnataka style of music" - was it Karnataka in the sense of "south-central India", in the sense of "Vijayanagara region", in the sense of what we today recognise as the Kannada country, or something else? Anyway, let's find the sources and deal with this issue when we have them. -- Arvind (talk)

This is not going to be easy for sure. For instance, King Krishnadevaraya wrote of God Virupaksha of Hampi, in his Sanskrit writing Jambavati Kalyanam as Karnata Rajya Raksha Mani --protective jewel of Karnata empire (the citation exists in the Vijayanagara Empire article). Later, when the empire was defeated in the Battle of Talikota and a diminished empire moved down to Chandragiri (in modern Andhra Pradesh), the newly coronated Tirumala Raya was given the epithet, Reviver of the Karnataka Empire (Shastri, 1955). Forget about the English or Moguls, even the Indian princely have carried that name around, perhaps based on tradition. So even if we dig up info on one musical treatise after another, this problem is going to follow based on when the treatise was written. And regarding the etymology "Karnataka music", we are trying to establish how often this term has been used, by who, when, and how appropriate it is to include it in the Etymology section.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Origin and History of Carnatic music (Karnatak music)

Please refrain from adding diversionary content regarding similarities between carnatic and other music systems. Only information directly pertinent to evolution of Carnatic music and its history is needed.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 04:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not diversionary content. There are no sources that can rule out that ancient Tamil music did not evolve, or did not contribute in the evolution of Carnatic music. Though some editors would like nothing better to label these as 'coincidences' and 'mere similarities that are unrelated to this section of the article', there is no evidence or source to suggest that ancient Tamil music played no role during the historical evolution of Carnatic music. On the other hand, when one sees that the modes used in the cited style of music are not just similar, but identical to ragas used in (and following the melakarta system of) Carnatic music of today, there is enough doubt. The modes that were used in ancient Tamil music (that are identical to the ragas in Carnatic music) is found in the musical research of musicologist and Sangita Kalanidhi, Dr. S Ramanathan, who published this information in a dissertation paper that earned him a Ph. D. from a university in Connecticut. The content is fully cited and has therefore been included. So please refrain from removing cited content from the article, as it constitutes page blanking and/or vandalizing the article. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

On another note, editors are (yet again) reminded that they are to keep cool heads while commenting on this talk page, as per the tag at the top of the page. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

NCcmv, please create a seperate article "Similarities between Ancient Tamil music and Carnatic music" where your arguements are better served.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

One can logically say that all scattered forms of music associated with all South Indian languages possibly including some North Indian languages in general served as backgrounds when Sri Purandara Daasru innovatively and systematically founded the new Karnataka Sangeeta a.k.a Carnatic music. While getting trained as diamond merchant in his early age by his father it is obvious that Sri Purandara Daasa had good contact of all societies and gained the knowledge about existed informal music forms. It is known that merchants typically have more general knowledge than the rest of the society since they travel more. The statements in thousands of Krithis by Daasaru composed during 15th century C.E. serve as important evidences. Kannada was chosen to facilitate and immediately establish the complete formation Carnatic Music. Later all other South Indian languages significantly contributed. However, due to lack of documented evidences such as Krithis for time before 15th century related to the present day Karnataka Music pin pointing a specific element for pre 15th century becomes speculative.

It is nice to know that all discussions for the past 2 weeks are following Wikipedia guidelines and they are significantly helping to improve the quality of this important article. Most editors are using cool and balanced approaches. Also thanks to Admn Blnguyen for his decision to unlock the article for highly needed editing by all.Naadapriya (talk) 09:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

YajnavalkyaSmriti quote

I took the liberty of fixing the Sanskrit of YjS 3.115, but I'm curious where the original mangled version came from, because the English translation seems unsourced too: the reference given has something else (besides lacking the Sanskrit). This google search shows only one site that doesn't show a clear dependency on this WP article, and it too has a different English version (which is wrong because the verb niyacchati is 3rd person singular - the nominatives all apply to the same person, not three different ones). Anyway, here is a literal analysis in case a translation can't be properly sourced:

vīṇā-vādana-tattva-jñaḥ

veena-musician-essence-knowing (= one who knows the essence of being a veena player)

śruti-jāti-viśāradaḥ

sruti-jati-skilled/experienced (= one who is skilled in sruti and jati)

tāla-jñaḥ ca aprayās(ena)

tala-knowing also no-effort(by) (= and one who knows tala, effortlessly)

mokṣa-mārgaṃ niyacchati

moksha-way/path binds/rules/controls (= ?)

The point here is that the verb niyacchati has the same root as the noun niyama (rule, restriction, discipline), so words to the effect of "effortlessly attains bliss" aren't as close to the meaning as something like "effortlessly masters the path of bliss". rudra (talk) 02:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The N in Carnatic is not retroflex

The N in Carnatic has been represented as retroflex in some scripts, and as non-retroflex in other scripts. It is actually not retroflex. --Masatran (talk) 12:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

It is retroflex in Sanskrit, where you almost never see -karn-, only -karṇ-. Malayalam also uses a retroflex (actually, a doubled retroflex karṇṇāṭaka). It isn't retroflex in Kannada, Tamil or Telugu. -- Arvind (talk) 21:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Need poll

We need to come to a concensus if this weasel paragraph, which does not convey any information about the evolution of Carnatic music, should reside in this article or not. Since some users have been bent on adding it back, I feel a straw poll may be necessary. That paragraph is,

While it is not clear whether ancient Tamil music has evolved into the tradition of Carnatic music,[8] the unique similarities shared by both styles of music through history has been undisputed.[9] Many of the modes used in ancient Tamil music (known as Panns) are entirely equivalent to the ragas used in the melakarta raga system of today's Carnatic music,[10][11] [12] while the rhythmic meters found in several musical forms (such as the Tiruppugazh) and other ancient literature, resemble the talas that are in use today.[13][14]. thanks,Dineshkannambadi (talk) 12:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the above paragraph is going to be changed, as there is a verifiable and reliable source that is more clear-cut stating that there is indeed something more between both styles of music - it is not a mere set of similarities. Of course, you have erroneously called the paragraph weasal given that no scholars have said the opposite to what has been said in the above paragraph, so unless you intend on proving otherwise, I suggest you reword what you have said.

I intend on adding a new reference that has been considered reliable as per the discussion on the reliable sources noticeboard (- a second opinion) by editors who have not made edits to this article. The author is S.Ramanathan.

So, once this has been changed, polling would not be an option that one should pursue as we include text in the article based on verifiability - it is pointless to vote on something that has been cited to a verifiable source. Polarizing opinions and contributing to a further break down of incivility and lack of good faith is not going to help either, which is why Wikipedia warns that polling, although not forbidden, should be used with care. This really isn't an option. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not being incivil. Please dont use words like "incivil" lightly.Dineshkannambadi (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 16:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you need to read the relevant policy to understand that it was a basic summary of what was written - I did not state, or imply, that you were being incivil. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

We dont need any polls to remove what is demonstrably weasel and worse, sourced to non-RS screed. Sarvagnya 17:47, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I am sure that Kalabhras took away whatever proofs that were present about Tamil music, else it could have been easily proven that Tamil music was pre-cursor to both Carnatic as well as Hindustani music, as well as Western Music genres like rock, jazz and pop. May be rap as well evolved from it, and I am sure Ghazals as well -- ¿Amar៛^{Talk to me/My edits} 06:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Above stated paragraph in the article falls into the category of 'Monday Morning Quarter Backing' with weasels. Those who saw apples falling before Newton did not invent the Gravitational Theory. Just like that possibly there were some scattered forms music and rhythms before 15th century but the formal organized form practiced today is based on the well documented invention Karnataka Music (a.k.a Carnatic Music in English) of Sri Purandara Daasa in the early 15th century. Related to South Indian Classical Music the concept 'Tala' was first adopted by Sri Purandara Daasa in laying out format for alankaaras and also used the word in his Krithi (undisputed documented evidence) 'tala MeLagalliddu'.Naadapriya (talk) 07:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

New Proposal on 'Move Title' Based on Consensus To-Date

Summary of comments to-date on move to the original name.

Editors participated intensively since beginning 8.

Regarding move:

3 in favor

1 no opinion

2 explicitly oppose

1 implicitly oppose

1 indecisive based on language issue than subject issue

The best compromise is as suggested follows.

1)Leave title as is since for some unknown reasons it is embedded in English languages meaning the same as 'Karnataka Music'.

2)Rewrite (a must) the first two paragraph as:

---

Template:IndicText Carnatic music which is the name commonly known in English for the original name Karnataka Sangeeta (Music) (also known in South Indian languages as Karnataka Sangeetam) is one of the two styles of Indian classical music, the other being Hindustani music. Its classical tradition is from the southern part of the Indian subcontinent, and its area roughly corresponds to the four modern Indian states; Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala, and Tamil Nadu. In this article, ‘Carnatic Music’, ‘Karnataka Music’, ‘Karnataka Sangeeta’, ‘Karnataka Sangeetam’ and ‘Karnatic Music’ all mean the same.

The present form of Karnataka or Carnatic music is based on documented developments that can be traced to the early 15th century CE after its seminal founding by Purandara Dasa who is revered by all music scholars as the father of Karnataka classical music (Karnataka Sangeeta Pitamaha). Some elements in the formation of this extensive and innovative new musical form might have resulted from the systematic scientific study of various scattered forms of Dravidian, Aryan and possibly Persian music existed in India before 15th century.

---

3) Modify rest of the article to comply with corrections pointed out by many editors to reflect the first two paragraphs. ( a must)

a) Remove all speculative information before 15th century.

b) Use only official websites (e.g. maintained by Oxford University, Ramon Magsaysay International award, etc..)

c) Limit references to books prescribed (or officially referred ) by Universities that has dedicated and established departments for South Indian Classical Music (e.g., Madras University, Mysore University etc ) respected at least by all South Indians. The Karnataka music is not English referring to authentic books in other languages should be allowed requesting exception from Wikipedia

d) Avoid using ‘Mushroom’ type 'weasel' books by less known authors and publishers published only to push POV of a specific group mostly those after Mysore state was renamed as Karnataka State.

To date comments by all editors are constructive. Above recommendations are mutually dependent on others and they need to be considered as whole not item by item. Should the article stays as is without corrections, as suggested by many editors it should fall under the category specific language that the article is currently trying to center-on and a separate article is needed for South Indian Classical Music to serve justice to Wikipedia readers. It is time to move on than going round and round. Naadapriya has presented adequate material in the discussions and he may not comment further on this topic unless a deliberate misinterpretation takes place or clarification is requested.Naadapriya (talk) 09:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Yet again, I reject this proposal. FYI, #2 and #3 would violate several Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

None of the above proposals violate 'Wikipedia policies and guidelines'. Except one editor, to date the majority of editors want significant corrections to the existing contents of the article. The incorrect contents of the article can not stay as is if it is intended to authentically represent the South Indian classical music which from beginning to date is known as 'Karnataka Music' with way later English equivalent name ' Carnatic Music'. Comments should not to mislead discussions with deliberate misinterpretations. Editors who make such repeated comments will be reported as in the past. Also editors should stop exercising ownership on the article and let constructive editings go smoothly.Naadapriya (talk) 16:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

And to date, it seems, other than editors who are pushing for an eminently Kannada POV, there has been no agreement by any other editors as there is no (real) justification for such changes. And btw, Purandaradasar was NOT the founder of Carnatic music - he is known to have founded the system by which Carnatic music is taught.

This article, like all articles in Wikipedia, must observe WP:NPOV - your proposal violates this policy by giving undue weight to a POV. In addition, several other editing and referencing guidelines would be violated. The information is not speculative, and the proposed editing is disruptive - not constructive. The proposal is rejected. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:22, 23 February 2008 (UTC)