Talk:Pseudoscience

Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines on the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. Neutral point of view as applied to science: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience. Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Wikipedia aspires to be such a respected work. Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more. Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience. Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized.

Please read before starting First of all, welcome to Wikipedia's Pseudoscience article. This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic. Newcomers to Wikipedia and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid here. A common objection made often by new arrivals is that the article presents the fields it lists as "pseudoscience" in an unsympathetic light or violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are: NPOV: Pseudoscience NPOV: Undue weight NPOV: Making necessary assumptions NPOV: Giving "equal validity". The contributors to the article continually strive to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the Content forking guidelines. These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research (WP:NOR) and Cite Your Sources (WP:CITE). Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Wikipedia's policy No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA) and to abide by consensus (WP:CON).

Notes to editors: This article uses scientific terminology, and as such, the use of the word 'theory' to refer to anything outside of a recognised scientific theory is ambiguous. Please use words such as 'concept', 'notion', 'idea', 'assertion'; see Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Theory. Please use edit summaries.

Back to testability...

I really think the topic of testability is too large to be included as it is in the intro statement. Although it is true that "they do not adhere to the testability requirement of the scientific method", that is certainly not one of the defining features. As SA has pointed out, it's not the testability that's the problem, it's the response to the tests, when carried out, that generally defines a pseudoscience.

More to the point, I think the statement below is a much clearer set of definitions: "Pseudosciences may be characterised by the use of vague, exaggerated or untestable claims, over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation, lack of openness to testing by other experts, and a lack of progress in theory development."

I propose moving that statement up to the intro para, removing the current statement, and covering the testability requirements in the existing section, one paragraph down. I really don't think we're doing anyone a service by putting this potentially misleading statement so early in the document where it cannot be properly explained.

Maury 20:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Most of Astronomy has the same problem of testability. A young n***a from da street 01:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Although MAury says that testability is not the problem, it actually is one of the biggest problems in pseudosciences in most disciplines (See How to Think Straight About Psychology (Stanovich) for a more thorough explanation. FAlsifiability is so important in evaluating claims and also in just plain straight thinking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zonbalance (talk • contribs) 03:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

According to the definition of 'falsifable' then String Theory should be considered pseudoscience, most of modern Physica theory cannot be tested , then how could we make the difference between them and pseudoscience ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.100.144 (talk) 13:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

That is something of a gray area, but those subjects are generally better classified as protoscience. The difference is mainly that those theories haven't been refined to the point where they can be tested yet. On the other hand, pseudoscientific theories show no signs of ever being testable, or, if they are, contradictory test results are ignored or handwaved away. Sometimes it is hard to judge, though. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 21:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Quite right Infophile. With regards to string theory it is unfalsifiable at the moment, but does not meet the other criteria for pseudoscience (for example string theorists have a continuity between their theories and the rest of physics, they don't think everybody else in their field are idiots (as some pseudoscientists do), and they will move on to other work if there theory is falsified - unlike pseudoscientists, etc etc). But even with string theory, one can see the importance of the falsifiability, it helps us understand that although string theory explains everything, we should still take it with a grain of salt until we can test it (many religions explain everything, but are untestable). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zonbalance (talk • contribs) 02:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Pseudosciences that became sciencies

Did some pseudosciences, like the continental theory, turn into real sciences? Let me doubt this statement. An hypotethical theory, which still has not been verified nor refuted, doesnt mean it is a pseudoscience: pseudoscientific theories and statements , actually, cannot be verified nor refuted. And theories such as the continental derive can be eventually proved to be true or false.

pseudoscience is a term of abuse used by the establishment to disparage new ideas and as a barrier of entry to new scientists. Think Galileo - an obvious psuedo-scientist! A young n***a from da street 01:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, indeed it can happen, if only rarely; continental drift is probably the most famous case of a theory almost universally thought to be nonsense by mainstream scientists that was eventually accepted into the canon of scientific belief. Continental drift earned its acceptance in the traditional way; by the presentation of compelling experimental evidence of its reality.

For every theory such as continental drift that is later demonstrated to be a valid hypothesis, there are hundreds that are not, and they share one thing in common; an inability to present convincing evidence that meets the criteria of the scientific method.

Implausibility, of itself, has never been a barrier to eventual scientific acceptance -- consider quantum mechanics and general relativity, both of which violate the assumptions of normal human common sense. Even today, the theory of evolution struggles to find universal acceptance outside of the scientific world -- again, for the reason that it offends many people's "common sense", based on their observations in everyday life that cats never turn into dogs and monkeys never turn into people. All of these theories initially met resistance within the scientific community, but did not have the same problems as continental drift.

The remarkable thing about science is not that it is closed to new ideas, but how open it is to them.

You might want to follow the recent developments in cold fusion research to see this in action; new experimental results have recently re-opened the debate on cold fusion, after many years of cold fusion being a pariah theory.

-- The Anome 08:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Galileo (or Einstein's or Newton's, or Pasteur's etc etc etc etc) early work on their testable and logical theories were NOT pseudosciences, and they did not meet criteria for a pseudoscience. Although they were criticized by the church, does not mean fellow scientists did not help them develop and improve, and yes... test their original ideas. This "galileo argument" is very popular with people with unfalsifiable new ideas that they have a financial stake in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zonbalance (talk • contribs) 03:21, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikiquote EL

Wikiquote external link, that 71.105.19.9 is reverting to retain, contains only the following example:

• If a person replaces most of the water in his body with Koranic water, his body begins to emit steam which contains the Koran. This creates a halo of steam around him, containing the Koran, which fends off Satan.
  • Sharif Shukran in the United Arab Emirates who claimed to be an inventor, The "Science" behind Healing with Koranic Holy Water. MEMRI (December 3, 2007).
  • The "Science" behind Healing with Koranic Holy Water

Does anybody really think that, as it stands, this provides the reader with significant additional useful information? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:42, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• q:pseudoscience also has a quote by Adnan Oktar who "scientically" explains how "Darwin is responsible for global terrorism"[1].--71.105.19.9 (talk) 17:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
  • A recent addition, and just as tangential. And what's with the repeated links? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

One link is to the transcript while the other is for the video clip.--71.105.19.9 (talk) 17:42, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Overkill. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I concede.--71.105.19.9 (talk) 17:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Philosophy

Hi. I'm curious. This article is written mainly from the positivist/critical rationalism angle which is widespread in America. Many of the examples of pseudoscience follows other kind of scientific philosophies or other post-modern approaches. While it may be tempting to use the popular science "scientific method" as a basis for criticism, there are a lot of scientists that allows hypothesises and unprovable things to be discussed without sinking to sling the perojative pseudoscience at it. While I am not terribly good at post-positivism approaches (which are popular here in Norway) it is clear that pseudoscience as defined here is defiend from an anglocentric perspective. --Benjaminbruheim (talk) 21:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. I either wasn't aware or didn't recall that these ideas (Positivism, Postpositivism) had a name. And yet there they are in Wikipedia! I think your point is a very good one, and it deserves to be considered as the article is edited. Please feel free to make edits that occur to you. NuclearWinner (talk) 23:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Conservationist physics

I was doing a cull on Category:Creationism stubs for articles that were either no longer stubs, or needed further attention & came across this article. Has anybody heard of this topic/its founder? Does anybody know of any sources that might substantiate its notability? Should it simply be redirected to Pseudophysics? It's been wholly unsourced for a year, so probably should have something done about it. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed protoscience sentence from user Vapour

It is redundant. NuclearWinner (talk) 22:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

See also section

So as not to edit war, let's discuss this section here. Levine, I checked the link you provided before making the initial revert. I also checked WP:SEEALSO, and it didn't mention anything related to this issue there. I felt that it didn't actually appear to be a characterization in light of the other items currently on the list. Certainly, some of them are obvious pseudoscience, but many are also simply related topics. We have Protoscience in there even though it's specifically called out by the policy you cite as not being pseudoscience, for instance. In the end, the relevant question I see is simply: Would somebody reading this possibly also be interested in reading about the subject of alternative medicine? Since it seems obvious they would; it should go in.

However, I do see a problem with the section becoming too listy. We've already got an article for that. I'm going to go and trim it down some after posting this, get rid of the items that are more like listing pseudosciences. I might leave in a couple really prominent examples though, such as Intelligent Design. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 18:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Overall, I agree with your edits. Please read WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience (if you haven't already). I think it sets a good bar in terms of how to deal with characterizing subjects as examples of Pseudoscience. And I get how "See also" works, but in a sense it is arbitrary - leaving it up to us to guess at what another reader might be interested in. It is too easy for See Also to be abused for a WP:POVPUSH. I totally agree with your "too listy" rationale - as you say, We've already got an article for that. Thanks! -- Levine2112 ^discuss 18:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I seem to remember a while back we had both evidence-based and alternative medicine in this list (though I might be thinking of another article), after a similar discussion. That seemed to be a good solution at the time. I don't have time to go history diving right now, but I'd be interested to see why that was changed. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 18:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd just as soon leave them both out or anything else where its appearance in this list could be construed as being presented as an example of Pseudoscience, thereby violating WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 19:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I really don't think there's much threat of that as long as we keep the section from being too much of a list, but it's hard to make that call definitively. Perhaps we could see what some other editors think to get a feel for consensus on this. (I'm fine with leaving it out until that time.) --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 19:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure. And again, I can understand the logic train getting to the assumption that someone reading about Pseudoscience might also be interested in reading about Protoscience. I don't however see such a clear logic train for Alternative Medicine. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 19:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, the way I look at it at least, Alternative medicine is a mix of "pseudomedicine," "protomedicine," and a few cases of typical medicine which has been co-opted under the label of being alternative (I'm using the prefixes there like with -science, in case my meaning isn't obvious). Seeing as we have links to other pseudo- topics (Pseudohistory, for example), alternative medicine seems to fit under this banner. Or, in another way of looking at it, alternative medicine is to evidence-based medicine as pseudoscience is to science (it's the closest parallel at least, even if, as I noted before, not all of alt-med is "pseudo"). That's my logic, at least. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 19:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

And yet, mainstream medicine also includes pseudo-medicine and protomedicine (as well as EBM). I know you think that "alternative medicine is to evidence-based medicine as pseudoscience is to science", but that is simply a POV and a mischaracterization of a general term. You are saying to include "Alt Med" in the See Also section because is is equivalent to pseudoscience - a logic train which violates WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience. I am not denying that Alt Med does have some pseudosciences lumped in with this general categorization, but I also acknowledge that it has much scientific-based practices in its composition as well - similar to Mainstream Medicine. Alt Med is not generally considered pseudoscience as a whole, but more along the lines of comprising some topics which are "Questionable Science" and some which are "Alternative theoretical formulations" (as well as some which are very much EBM). Accordingly (by the policies set forth by WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience, we would be in violation by including Alt Med in the See Also section using the logic you have outlined. Make sense? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 20:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, well I think I see where our impasse comes from, at least. We seem to have different pictures of what Alternative Medicine is (and for that matter, mainstream and evidence-based medicine), and I can understand how your view of it leads to your conclusion here. Now, we could try to hash all that out, but I just don't see it being worth the effort that would necessarily entail. I think the most reasonable solution here is to just wait for/seek out the opinion of a third party. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 01:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Some (popular) definitions or usages of "Atlernative medicine" include biologically based therapies that have definite theoretical, experimental and/or clinical bases for Science but are not (yet or again) accepted as (FDA approved or class 1 EBM) mainstream Medicine (including substances that are categorically exempt, such as nutrients recognized as foods). There are several structural economic, social and scientific problems that both maintain and create the classification of valid, science based therapies as "Alternative medicine". This also means that medicine of yesteryear, now old and generic, with valid evidence acceptable for its time, and still useful with biochemically measurable results, can be (has been) disparaged (publically attacked) in some (commercially and scientifically) trivial way, and become deprecated as "Alternative medicine" simply because there is no automatic economic mechanism to support and "defend" it. Hypothetically there are (or were) cumbersome mechanisms institutionally to *possibly* address this, but these very same institutions often are in hostile (economic & political) opposition in practice, as well as simply not functioning. Furthermore there are a number of historical medical controversies with economic and political dimension that are simply scandals awaiting recognition as scientific bias, incompetence, and/or fraud. This applies to "mainstream" drugs that are more dangerous and less beneficial than their captive documentation claims, and to cheap biologically based therapies (some biochemically measurable) abandoned, severely delayed (decades or major fractions of a century), or murdered disparaged aborning. In this latter category, are historical cases that continue to drive major public controversies. In the former category, a number of the recent drug scandals fit. Automatically confuting (complementary and )"alternative medicine" as pseudoscience furthers errors, and for some, an agenda of non-scientifically based disparagement, all too common at WP. Altmed categorization as PS appears to directly violate WP:NPOV, and, by overgeneralization, WP:V.--TheNautilus (talk) 23:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(de-indent) Hola Infophile - I'm not sure about the "see also", but for some excellent (and varying) V RS's on the definition of alternative medicine, check out the lead at Complementary and alternative medicine. Some notable folks do define alt-med as the set of things outside evidence-based medicine, but the Institute of Medicine doesn't (and they're certainly the strongest source there and the only sci-consensus one). Under their definition, and in the view of others as well like Edzard Ernst, it is certainly possible for a modality to be both EBM and CAM. Even so, the overlap is not huge, and there will be within CAM a significant amount of all different categories of pseudo- and questionable science that the ArbCom talked about (top of page). In what proportions, no idea; I guess one might look at CAM's by economic precedence, and see how they would be classified under our pseudoscience rubric.

I just noticed that at quackery there is a "see also" for (sic: all on one line) Conventional medicine, alternative medicine and evidence-based medicine, so if it's fine there (and I think it certainly is), it should be fine here: healthcare is a major focus of science. I'll try that, and if it isn't good, someone just revert and we'll take it from there. (Am somewhat flummoxed as to why we haven't merged the articles on alt-med, comp-med and CAM all together, but those discussions always get hung up with a few highly opinionated folks with, imho, tenuous logic.) regards, Jim Butler^(talk) 09:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not thrilled about it, but as you have listed it does seem to balance out any POV claims about any one of these subjects. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, exactly; trying for something that "mildly unrevolting" to all parties. :-) cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 22:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thank you for catching that on Quackery. I knew I remembered coming to that compromise somewhere, just got mixed up as to which article it was (though I got shot down when I mentioned it, and it's accepted now. Interesting. Analyzing the source more than the arguments, perhaps?). Anyways, quick note on the definitions of C/A/EB Medicine: Yeah, I realized not long after my post on what I see AltMed as that my two different analogies don't really say the same thing. I consider the first to be more accurate (and it matches up quite well to most of the definitions there); the second just benefits from simplicity, and I thought using it would make a clearer case for why we should have the link to AltMed here. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 23:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Pseudoscience up for deletion ... again

As you will notice from the cfdnotice I've just posted above (as the nominator didn't bother to do so), Category:Pseudoscience is up for deletion again. You can find discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 January 27#Pseudoscience. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 02:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

KEEP, KEEP, KEEP. Knowing the difference between science and pseudoscience is an essential part of everybody's education. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zonbalance (talk • contribs) 01:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Wrong place to express the opinion, and the CfD has already been closed as a "keep". Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 03:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Definition

I prefer the original simple definition to the now much more complicated one diff. I find that there is virtually no difference in the various definitions given in the sources aside from slight differences in wording, and it is important for this article to be firm and precise in the scope of its applicability. Rather than simply reverting, what are the opinions of other editors around here regarding the recent changes to the first sentence of this article? Silly rabbit (talk) 00:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out the downside of my first edit. But it's important to have a wider definition because there is, outside natural sciences, well accepted research which doesn't adhere to the natural scientific method, within social sciences and other disciplines studying human beings also qualitative research is used. So the earlier definition would have made some of the existing research "pseudoscientific". Your new arrangement was ok, but I'll edit a bit more for grammatical reasons. Of course other ideas are welcome too, but what used to be there was too much a simplification, and it also looked a bit misleading to have many sources for one definition when in fact those sources do not give the same definition. Best regards Rhanyeia♥♫ 07:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. Now that I know your mind, I am much more comfortable with the changes to the first sentence. Silly rabbit (talk) 14:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

article of interest

Could people who watch this article check out Psychohistory - I am not sure if it counts as a pseudoscience or not. Judging from the article it seems to be the invention of one guy, Lloyd deMause (try googling him) and his students/disciples. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Good eye, Slrubenstein. It looks like a borberline case of pseudoscience because of the untestable premise, circular arguments and focus on confirmational evidence and ignoring vast swaths of disconfirming evidence. It is similar to Alice Miller's bleak and blinkered view of childhood and history, and deMause may have influenced by others like Arthur Janov and similar proponents that say that ALL children were abused and that frames history and explains politics and EVERYTHING. There is a lack of boundary conditions too, another sign of pseudoscience, because de MAuse applies psychoanalytic theory (which is suspect to begin with) to the whole history of mankind. Also, a lack of continuity from other areas of science (social aspects, evolutionary, and genetic factors are ignored; or at least do not mesh with the 'theory') is another sign of pseudoscience.Zonbalance (talk) 01:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Creation Science and IT

WP:NOT#FORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Creation Science and IT should not be listed in this article. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience they might be considered to be questionable science, not psuedoscience. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 23:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC) Where does it says this? And what is IT? Information Technology?--Filll (talk) 23:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC) Au contraire. They're obvious pseudoscience, and we have sources ranging from the courts to national science academies stating as such. --Infophile (Talk) (Contribs) 01:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC) JBFrenchhorn, Just because something is pseudoscience, doesn't mean it is not true. And just because something is scientific, doesn't mean it is true. rossnixon 01:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC) Quite right infophile, again. Creation science and Intelligent Design (ID, rather than IT I guess) are pseudoscience and meet ALL the criteria for pseudoscience: unfalsifiability, lack of continuity with other science, lack of boundary conditions, disconfirming evidence ignored, emotionally charged reasons why it is desired to be true, etc etc. They are religious beliefs, which is okay, religion is not always bad. The evidence for natural selection and evolutionary theory is overwhelming and evolution is both a theory and a fact (gene frequencies change from one generation to the other, that part is a fact we can observe all the time)Zonbalance (talk) 02:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC) These should be removed. Creation science subjects itself to the same objectivity of "regular" science, but begins with different starting assumptions with which to interpret their evidence. It is incorrect to assume they do not apply the scientific method. 208.188.2.101 (talk) 15:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC) The starting assumption is that a very old book is literally true, and no evidence to the contrary will ever change that assumption. It's shoehorning data to fit a pre-concieved notion. That's not science, and attempting to claim the respectability of science makes it pseudoscience. WLU (talk) 15:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC) I guess in saying that, you subject evolution, for example, to the same scientific frailty and capability to change or be utterly up heaved? As long as we are all consistent. 208.188.2.101 (talk) 15:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC) Please see the index to creationist claims. All creationist attacks against evolution have been rebutted, in some cases by Darwin himself, over 150 years ago. Science regularly changes its theories in response to new evidence. Evolution is not a pseudoscience, it is well supported by a myriad of not just evidence, but lines of evidence, from a huge array of disciplines and sub-disciplines. See the talk origins archive for more information. WLU (talk) 15:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC) 208.188.2.101, "Creation science" IS pseudoscience: just like the various other pseudoscience topics that you did NOT remove. So why did you not remove those others? Do you think it's right that a supporter of any specific pseudoscience should arbitraily remove his/her favourite from the list of pseudosciences? Do you actually not accept that anything at all should be classed as pseudoscience? How about astrology, or phrenology? --Robert Stevens (talk) 15:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC) An editor makes edits on that which he understands. I don't have to write / rewrite an entire article. 208.188.2.101 (talk) 15:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC) Please read History of evolutionary thought -- the Theory of Evolution has been subjected to continuous testing, alteration and improvement. HrafnTalkStalk 15:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

New Shortcut

In my current holding pattern, I have created a link that I think you and others might find useful. WP:PSCI Cheers. Anthon01 (talk) 00:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Pseudoscience up for deletion

Discussion is at WP:TFD#Template:Infobox_Pseudoscience. This seems to be "try to delete anything connected with the topic of pseudoscience" month. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 03:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Falsifiability

As regards my now reverted edit here, I'd like to discuss the matter here. I think the reversion is improper because of a misunderstanding of my meaning, or I'm just plain wrong. (Maybe I'm just too tired!) Falsifiability is generally considered basic to whether a claim is considered within the scientificly testable realm. Homeoapathy is probably the most egregious pseudoscience around, and it makes obviously falsifiable claims. If it didn't, it would be a pseudoscience.

Basically any idea that is pseudoscientific must either

1. Claim to be scientific, but not adhere to the scientific method.
2. Be made to appear scientific, but not adhere to the scientific method.
3. Make falsifiable claims, but not adhere to the scientific method.

But not necessarily all three.

If it doesn't make falsifiable claims, appear to be scientific, or claim to be scientific, then it's possibly a metaphysical idea or something else, but not a pseudoscience. If it makes unfalsifiable claims, it probably wouldn't appear to be scientific, and therefore would not be a pseudoscience.

Basically any idea that is not pseudoscientific (IOW be scientific) must either

1. not make claims to be scientific, but not adhere to the scientific method.
2. not be made to appear scientific, but not adhere to the scientific method.
3. make unfalsifiable claims, but not adhere to the scientific method.

Am I just too tired to realize I'm tripping over my own tongue here? -- Fyslee / talk 01:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

My first thought is that none of the sources assembled even mention falsifiability as part of the deal at all. Instead, all sources available indicate that the putative pseudoscience must in effect claim to be a science (or be made to appear scientific). Find sources which include falsifiability as part of the basic definition, and we might have grounds for inclusion here.

However, I think I can directly address the issue of falsifiability without resorting to the sourcing problem. Simple charlatans and confidence artists make falsifiable claims all the time, do not adhere to the scientific method, yet are not pseudoscience. Homeopathy is pseudoscience, not because it makes falsifiable claims, but because it claims to be scientific while refusing to adhere to the scientific method. Silly rabbit (talk) 02:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I think there is some confusion, psuedoscientists make UNfalsifiable theories, theories that cannot possibly be proved wrong. (see work by Scott Lilienfeld, Karl Popper, Kieth Stanovich). And yes, falsifiability is essential to the pseusoscience definition. Good Scientific theories are both falsifiable (can possibly be proved wrong) yet tested many times and not found to be false (not falsified). Hope that doesn't give anyone a headache. Zonbalance (talk) 03:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

As I mention below, some pseudoscientists and scammers actually make falsifiable claims, but fail to adhere to the scientific method. The making of UNfalsifiable claims isn't always a factor. -- Fyslee / talk 07:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you have caught the confusion bug as well Zonbalance. Fyslee was saying, or seemed to be saying, that disciplines which are falsifiable, yet do not adhere to the scientific method, are pseudoscience. I agree that falsifiability, as it generally is thought of as figuring in the scientific method, is often vital to the demarcation between science and pseudoscience. That fact is in no way at odds with my reversion. Silly rabbit (talk) 03:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Then why revert it? Maybe reword it a bit better? -- Fyslee / talk 07:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, to incorporate falsifiability into the first line of the article is going to be difficult. Really it falls into the "scientific method." If you are an astute reader, you should be able to pick out the falsifiability bit in the NSF reference, as a part of their description of the scientific method. However the author they cite is quite careful not to overplay the falsifiability card (he doesn't even specifically use the word), and I don't think it should be in the first sentence of the article. The most important thing is the scientific method. Silly rabbit (talk) 03:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I think we basically agree. The lack of adherence to the scientific method is the main thing, and other things can be tacked on in varying degrees. Some pseudosciences make unfalsifiable claims, yet claim to be scientific, and on the basis of their false claims are considered to be pseudosciences. Others make falsifiable claims, while disavowing any pretense to be scientific, and on that basis (their claims get falsified) are also pseudosciences. We actually have some editors here playing that game. They think that because their favorite pseudoscience doesn't make overt claims to be scientific, that it can escape being listed at the List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts. Well, it can because it both makes falsifiable claims that are falsified and fails to adhere to the scientific method. So as regards falsifiability, it can go both ways. It isn't an absolute requirement, but is often a major factor when combined with other factors. The making of a falsifiable claim involves an attempt to appear scientific, whether the one making the falsifiable claim admits or disavoys any attempt to claim to be scientific. They are trapped on the basis of their falsifiable claim. Smooth conmen are careful to fly under the radar by making claims that are unfalsifiable, but still pretend that their scams are scientifically proven, when they are actually unproven anecdotes. They are failing to adhere to the scientific method. Are you confused now? It's really not that bad. There is simply more than one way to cut this cake and pronounce a method or idea to be pseudoscientific. Although falsifiability is mentioned several places in the article, it doesn't have to be mentioned in the first sentence. Neither does the definition have to be a precise quote from one or more sources, but can be written following the principles for writing the LEAD, IOW a summation of the places in the article that involve definitional matters, and thus the definition can include falsifiability as a possible factor, if we so choose. -- Fyslee / talk 07:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, I have yet to come across a pseudoscience that didn't make UNfalsifiable claims, because even if they are testable the proponents dismiss the evidence as bogus or very often as further confirmation (believe it or not). So I see unfalsifiability as covering those pseudosciences that you mentioned who you think make falsifiable claims. If a proponent has an answer for every possible falsifying evidences then I call it unfalsifiable. I agree with you fyslee, though, there are other ways to cut the cake.Zonbalance (talk) 21:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) I think it's important to avoid commitments about the specific details in the lead sentence, anyway. What constitutes confirmation and testing, and thus "falsifiability" (whatever that means), can vary depending on the sciences. There is, I believe, an especially great rift between the natural sciences and social sciences. So falsifiability can be (and in fact is) dealt with in the article, but it has to be done properly, and in a way that doesn't make it seem as though this is the only available demarcation criterion. Silly rabbit (talk) 21:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes I agree with you on the edit Silly Rabbit, (though for different reasons). Fyslee please give your source on the "falsifiable but not following the scientific method," I'm intrigued. Glad to have you both protecting the article from the bendy-thinkers. :) Zonbalance (talk) 01:10, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Pseudoscience is defined? By who?

According to this, "psuedoscience" is not "defined" -- not at all "defined". I've adjusted the intro to remove WP:OR and WP:SYN, and attribute this description of the term to the individual who created it. WNDL42 (talk) 22:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

A Google scholar search does not establish the lack of definition of something. (For instance, here are some searches which tell a very different story: [2], [3], and [4].) The definition cited in the article is a very reasonable one, and attempts to accommodate all available points of view. If you have a real objection, consisting an alternative definition you feel is not represented here, then you are welcome to raise the issue and use it to improve the article. However, please do not edit-war and use spurious arguments to attempt to override the existing consensus version of the lead. Silly rabbit (talk) 22:46, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The term "defined" has a very specific meaning and it's use in the lead as I found it is WP:OR and WP:SYN. Seems pretty clear to me. WNDL42 (talk) 23:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

FYI, not one of your google searches establishes a "definition", much less "tell a different story", nor even tell any story at all. Not this one, nor this one, nor this one. True or not true, "the threshold for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifyability, not truth", right? WNDL42 (talk) 23:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I moved the OAM def up front -- workable?