User talk:Pgreenfinch

Archive User talk:Pgreenfinch/2004-2006

Random walk hypothesis

Someone has created a new Random Walk Hypothesis page, so it looks like some merging needs to be done. --Calton | Talk 04:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

EU vote

Salut Pgreenfinch, I noticed your EU contributions. Currently we have a vote for keeping many relevant images in the sections. Would be great to see you voting and commentating there. This is the version to be discussed [1]]. all the best Lear 21 04:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Economics, Economy

Salut Pgreenfinch, j'ai lu tes remarques sur economics et l'usage du mot economy. J'ai juste publié un nouveau article sur economy et voudrais demander ton opinion la dessus. Bien sur je parles Anglais ainsi. Peut-etre tu pourras participer à la discussion qui va bien sur paraitre? --Jörg Sutter 17:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Viel Arbeit, Jörg :-). L'approche historique me paraît interessante, mais il me semble qu'il faut bien séparer ce qui est history of economics de ce qui est history of economy (or economic history), autrement dit l'évolution de l'activité économique au cours des millénaires, par exemple en détaillant les vagues de Toffler. Voir notamment l'article du wikipedia français "Théorie des vagues de développement" --Pgreenfinch 22:27, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear Pgreenfich, you're right. The problem is, that the science Economics started in the early 20th century/late 19th century. I should have mentioned Max Weber by the way. Economic history on the other hand is of course influenced by economic schools. I will have a look at the article in French soon. Your--Jörg Sutter 09:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, Jörg, I appreciate what you do to improve this article. --Pgreenfinch 17:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear Pgreenfich, somebody is deleting my article on economy without any discussion. What can I do?--Jörg Sutter 13:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, you can initiate an History of the World economy article, filling it with your text and maybe a few additions (like those I referred to about Toffler's development waves), and put a summary and a link to it in the economy article as well as in the economic history and World economy articles.

If that other contributor (whom I think is not specialized in economics) deletes that, I will join you in restoring it. I think that wikipedia is lacking food on this economic history theme and that your efforts to feed it has to be supported. But as you may know, there are sometimes "edit wars" in this "cooperative" encyclopedia, but I don't think that, in this theme which is not that "hot", it can go very far ;-) --Pgreenfinch 14:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear Pgreenfich. That's a great idea and of course it will take time for me. To my shame I have to say that I didn't knew Toffler until now. Do you know Peter Sloterdijk? Your--Jörg Sutter 07:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

No, Jörg, I don't know about him, I would be happy to know more. I'm not an economist by profession, it is just that, as shown in my user page, I accumulated some (theoretical and practical) knowledge of this field in general, and of various related aspects, as it has always been of high interest for me. Let us call it a "violon d'Ingres". --Pgreenfinch 08:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC). PS. I see that there is a Peter Sloterdijk article, but it seems quite vague, I'm not sure it explains clearly his philosophy and even less how it could be practically applied to economic matters.

Joining Wikipedia project Finance

Some of us were creating the wikipeida project Finance, and we could use some more people who are experienced in this area Let us know if your interested Wikipedia:WikiProject Finance

--DrewWiki 14:25, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Marketing plan

Please reconsider your edits to Marketing plan. Please read WP:COI regarding conflict of interest in editing Wikipedia articles. This external link marketing plan basics is apparently something you have written. Please remove the external link from the article. Also, the external link How to Write a Marketing Plan is actually a link to a site about how to write a business plan, not a marketing plan. If either of these links were used in writing the article, please reference them, do not put them in the External links section. Since this is a practical topic, it should use practical references, not theoretical ones.

I'm placing this comment here instead of on the article talk page because I assume you don't know about WP:COI. --SueHay 21:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I just gave a reference to a page I used in writing a part of the article. Please note that no interest is at play as that site is non commercial and purely educational. Also it is highly ranked by Google for the "marketing plan" topic, so I suppose it can be considered as a useful and relevant practical reference. --Pgreenfinch 22:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

You used this reference for the 10th item on a 17-item outline? Where did the rest of the outline come from? --SueHay 22:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Most are consistent with other sections of the site, but this one is the most directly linked to an item I added myself. I would not multiply the references to that site, although other items are consistent with it, as it would become promotion instead of references. I can study with you what is the best way to do, and see how to place more references (for example to the Australian site), but I will be able to do it only next week, as I will not have much time and not be available in the forthcoming days. --Pgreenfinch 06:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Please be a gentleman and withdraw your link and outline section from Marketing plan. You originally added that three years ago, and the article's history indicates that you've consistently restored your own link after removal by other Wikipedians, and also kept your own link when removing "linkspam" yourself. Please just withdraw your link with the explanation that you feel it's a conflict. Bowing out gracefully is the right thing to do. Think about it. --SueHay 02:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

And what if the link is useful for Wikipedians? And how that would solve the problem of references for that article ? --Pgreenfinch 10:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Greed and fear

A "{{prod}}" template has been added to the article Greed and fear, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but the article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice explains why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may contest the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Gavin Collins 09:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I responded to your Applied Information Economics comments.

You seem confused about what AIE is about. AIE is not a descriptive model for prices. It has nothing to do with EMH. It is a normative/optimization decision analysis tool not a descriptive tool for prices. It does not ignore what you call "soft" considerations and, in fact, explicitly models them. Your comment about considering "emotional factors" is mostly irrelevant since its not a descriptive price model. (although it does adjust for some "emotional factors" in regards to the use of human judges for estimating quantities). It helps decision makers optimize decisions by prioritizing information gathering in an economically optimal way. Thats it. Everything you were talking about seems to apply to the economics of asymetric information in markets. This topic is currently discussed under Information Economics. But, like I said, these are completely different topics.Hubbardaie 11:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

This does not appear in your description. Also you quote the MPT, which is precisely in line with the EMH. Also a normative / optimization model needs obviously to estimate values that fit reality even if the decider has its own - let us say more "rational" criteria - for example related to its risk / return obectives. Maybe you should explain better in the article. Another thing is that if this article has no section about the limitations of the method, it is one-sided and therefore non encyclopedic. As I'm sure you know those limitations, so why don't you express them yourself to avoid as you said a "confusion"? --Pgreenfinch 13:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, MPT doesn't necessarilly make assumptions about EMH but people who use MPT might also make an EMH assumption. It simply uses the "given" risks and returns of potential investments. It never addresses whether those risks and returns are based on information unique to one investor (in violation of EMH) or whether those are simple "market" returns and risks. Although its often assumed that the probability distributions of returns are derived from historical volitility, the actual MPT optimization approach makes no such assumption. It simply computes an optimal portfolio position, regardless of where one gets. Regarding the rest of your comment, I think you make a good point. I certainly don't intend to cause any confusion from my explanation of AIE. Since I have a COI, I'm not going to make direct changes to the article itself, but I'm willing to discuss them in the article's talk page.Hubbardaie 13:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Please archive your talk page

Please archive older discussions on your talk page. For information on how to do this, please see Help:Archiving a talk page. --Foggy Morning 01:42, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Economy

Hi P., if you are interested in keeping the standard term Economy in the EU article consider to reestablish it at your convenience. all the best Lear 21 (talk) 21:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

EU Economy, economic policy, ecoomy and economic policy

Hi, I reverted away your suggestion to change the section title on European union to Economy and economic policy. However, I do think there might be some merit in the suggestion, I'm just not convinced. I like economic policy for several reasons. First, because the section is mainly about economic policy, not about the economy. The material about the economy merely serves as an introduction to the section, giving people an idea what we are talking about.

Second, the EU as an organisation is not concerned with the economy. It does not have policies aimed at boosting the economy, rather its primary aim is to harmonise and free up trade between the member nations. Yes, of course this impacts on the economy, but that is not its primary concern. This article ought to be about what the EU does, not about what accidental things happen in the same place.

Third, I rather like having two sections in the index, economic policy and development policy. Again, this emphasises the fact that the EU is an organisation for making and implementing international rules.

Someone suggested 'culture' should be changed to 'cultural policy' for the same reasons. I think this is more difficult, because the EUs main cultural policy is that it is not concerned with culture, but it is certainly arguable. Also, there is some sense in having some general information about the EU which is not strictly policy but does affect its operation. Though I do think this should be consolidated under one main heading. (ie, with the current demographics). Sandpiper (talk) 11:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the bias is that the EU is considered in this article as just an administration. In reality the EU is first an economic space, which has also an administration that developped its role progressively with various institutions and policies (most of them economic and very few in other fields, I agree there is no real cultural policy). Maybe one day it will be more than an economic space and its administration will (hopefully) have a broader political role, but this is another idea. I think this article is not very clear about the real nature of the EU. --Pgreenfinch (talk) 17:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, but I don't think that is true. I have commented below also, but I think the EU is an administration which just happens to include certain countries. Any random collections of countries chosen from a list would have an economy, a favourite sport, certain languages, but it would just be random informataion which really had nothing to do with your having chosen to consider them together. The EU can only be considered as one economic space in so far as the countries concerned are members of the EU. It would not be considered as one unit if the EU did not exist, and the area being considered keeps changing as membership changes. Sandpiper (talk) 19:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of European Union member states at the 2004 Summer Olympics

An article that you have been involved in editing, European Union member states at the 2004 Summer Olympics, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/European Union member states at the 2004 Summer Olympics (2nd nomination). Thank you. Paulbrock (talk) 16:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The phrase European Union applies at the same time to the area and community and to its institutions.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to achieve with this line? Is this supposed to be a disambiguation? A very big source of argument on this article is indeed whether there is effectively a country called European Union, and by and large we don't think there is. There is debate whether this article should confine itself solely to the institutions, so for those editors, obviously your line is not acceptable. Even for those who argue we should discuss the region, I am doubtfully they want to explicitly point out the possible difference in the introduction Sandpiper (talk) 10:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I will try to be clear and use a logical approach that seems to be missing in this article. That people argue seems to me precisely a symptom that the article is confusing. Those who consider just the intitutions could make a subarticle (or a section) titled European Union Institutions. If they are interested in policies (which is another level) they could create European Union policies as an article or a section. As to call it a country has no sense it should not interfere in the article. But that it is basically a region with close ties and common aspects, cannot be denied and deserves to be described as such (population, geography, economy...) and is the natural basis of the main article about the European Union. An article normally explain the "what" before explaining the "how". And an article that is not clear from the start about what it deals with is not encyclopedic. Whence edit wars after edit wars about any chunk of flesh, because of a lack of squeleton that help to see what part of the body is involved --Pgreenfinch (talk) 13:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the way probably I, but also others, would see it is that the economic region you are describing is not the [European Union], but [Europe], and such descriptions belong in that article, not the EU one. The ties are because all those countries are in Europe, not because they are in the EU. Most european countries now are in the EU, (or semi-attached) so the two are becoming somewhat confused, but they have joined the EU because they already had many things in common, they did not suddenly get those things in common from being members. I have noticed some sources arguing that countries cannot become members because they are not geographically within Europe. This always struck me as rather odd. I can quite imagine that as current new members become properly assimilated, people on their borders will again be thinking about joining, whatever continent they are in. This diversity is something of a challenge for the EU as people from increasingly different cultures are joining, who may have rather few things in common. If someone wanted to pursue a foreign policy aimed at peace in the middle east and N. Africa, they might be much better advised to encourage those countries to join the EU, then bombing the hell out of them. But then, that would definitley not suit the USA.

I do not really regard the EU as a place, but a collection of places which have agreed certain things in common. The unique thing about them is not what the sum of each of their GDPs happens to be, but the special rules and institutions they have created. Yes, people do refer to the EU as a place and eg to its economy. It does exist as a defined region and people treat it as one when this is appropriate. Obviously, it has defined borders and measurable characteristics. But nonetheless most people do not regard it as a country. I am british, I think if you asked most peole living within the EU, they would say they are French, German, etc, and if you asked them how the balance of payments is, or some other measurable property of a country, they would automatically think about those things in relation to their own country. I have some idea how the economy of the UK is going along, but much less about that of the EU, which hardly disturbs my consciousness except to argue about it here.

I am still sitting on the fence with regard to your proposal. I think it sits much better next to the primary definition first line, where it serves as a dictionary- style explanation. But it will need slightly re-phrasing as it doesn't read quite right as it stands. having said that, I'm not quite sure how to rephrase. Did you mean"... to the area, and community, and to its institutions" or "to the area and community, and to its institutions" (three things, or two things)? Sandpiper (talk) 19:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Thenks for the question, although I'm still puzzled that you introduce the country notion in that debate. Anyway, it is possible to be at the same time from a town (some urban areas, like the one where I live, straddles two countries)), from a country, from the EU and from this planet, those things overlaps. The degrees of belonging and the types of traits involved will differ with the area covered of course. If you want to rephrase it seems to me that your second wording "to the area and community, and to its institutions", which separates clearly the entity itself and its institutions would be the clearest. --Pgreenfinch (talk) 23:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I deleted the line, as 4 editors have agreed so on the talk page of the EU article. Please discuss why you think it adds something there first before adding it again; the consensus at the moments is clearly not in favour of this line. Also please keep content discussion on the talk page of the EU article (extensive as it may be). Why I think it does not add anything is because the terms are in practice used interchangably (area, community and institutions); this is in my opinion not an indicator of confusion but rather of context related use of aspects of the Union; while in other contexts other properties are more important; in that sense the line adds little to nothing (cf France refers to its area, its government, its institution and foreign relations..... would be an irrelevant addition to that article). Anyway, please look for consensus first on Talk EU. Thanks Arnoutf (talk) 20:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Entryism by Scientology into AA

Hi Pgreenfinch. I removed the note in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entryism#Religious_entryism that "The Church of Scientology has also practiced entryism in taking over Alcoholics Anonymous meetings" because I searched for a long time in news sources, blogs and generally on the web and failed to find any evidence for this assertion. You reverted this removal. You may question my motive, but I certainly have no connection to either Scientology or AA; indeed, I am very critical of Scientology. Even though Scientologists infiltrating AA meetings sounds plausible, the statement is unverifiable. If you know of a source to back this claim, please discuss this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Entryism#Religious_entryism. I am reverting back to it being removed. Fences and windows (talk) 21:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Recession

Dear Peter GREENFINCH:

You write:

comments not about economic recession but just stock market tips by just one person

Nouriel Roubini is a distinguished professor and researcher, and his views have been widely cited in the context of the current down-turn.

See Google search [2]

--Chakreshsinghai (talk) 01:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I know that, but it is only one person, from one country, giving one advice and wikipedia deals with facts and notions, not with predictions by celebrities. I might even share to a large extent his analysis, although I find it a bit simplistic, as is the case for any monoscenario, and missing a few factors. Btw, the article is overfocused on the US situation. I know the US is the source of the mess, but the article topic is not "recession in the US". --Pgreenfinch (talk) 07:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Peter,

Nouriel Roubini is not a celebrity. He is an acknowledged expert. Globally acknowledged expert. He is a researcher and has worked hard to be an expert. His analysis identifies some of the key developments in the present crisis.

It would be nice to see more details on the global recession(s). I had added some things, but no one else has contributed anything significant on it.

Truth is, whether you like it or not, USA is the global economic center. Textbooks written in USA are used worldwide. I would like to see someone contribute that will explore the global linkages.

Certainly this crisis has its origin in the USA, as you acknowledge it.

--Chakreshsinghai (talk) 18:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Chakreshsinghai I don't think you understand, what you consider an analysis, but which is in fact a prediction, limited to just one scenario, however smart and hard working is the expert who formulates it, has not its place in an encyclopedic article that describes notions and events. WP is not a blog nor the editorial & comments page of an economic newspaper. A link to some article by Roubini would be amply enough, and preferably to a real analysis by him, as we could expect something a bit more academic and more thorough from such an erudite. Some key factors are totally lacking such as those linked to currency market, interest rates, inflation, foreign trade effects and policies, unemployment, standards of living, level of production / consumption / capital spending, public budgets... In fact it is not really a paper about recession. As it would be unfair to say that Roubini has a very narrow idea of what is a recession, better take out an analysis that can give that impression. --Pgreenfinch (talk) 21:50, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

This being an encyclopedia, is not the place for the type of detailed analysis that appears in refereed journals. --Chakreshsinghai (talk) 00:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Stock market cycles

Peter:

There are quite a few studies on yearly seasonality in countries outside of USA. Can you locate and summarise them, since you are the international expert?

A good source of articles is http://www.jstor.org/

--Chakreshsinghai (talk) 03:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe too much in "cycle" regularity. This is called representativeness heuristic. --Pgreenfinch (talk) 07:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)