Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pakistan occupied Kashmir

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by RegentsPark (talk | contribs) at 14:09, 7 September 2008 (→‎Pakistan occupied Kashmir: neutrality). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Pakistan occupied Kashmir

Pakistan occupied Kashmir (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

An extremely incendiary and POV title that was converted from a redirect to a content fork and immediately caused an entrenched war among involved editors meco (talk) 17:30, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

i can count alone around 11 editors have been informed about this page through canvassing and they have received propaganda messages from our noble editor kashmir cloud ordering deletion of his original message to cover his tracks is he cast788 or ip 177 ???*** 86.158.235.148 (talk) 15:06, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any proof of kashmircloud (talk · contribs) having urged editors to delete his canvassing messages? __meco (talk) 15:11, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
LOL look at his contributions then reply it clearly states in bold red writing "URGENT" and at the bottom says "delete before voting" how much more proof do you want? Also look at cast788 aka kashmir cloud sock and his contributions too its all very obvious 86.158.235.148 (talk) 15:27, 6 September 2008 (UTC)86.158.235.148 (talk) 15:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see this. Could you show some of the edits where this is written? __meco (talk) 15:56, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Look at User:Cast788 and his contribs, Kashmircloud didn't post the messages using his main account. Pahari Sahib 16:06, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Cast788 (talk · contribs) contacted five users with the canvassing request, none of whom have so far turned up here. __meco (talk) 16:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wow! such a comlexed network for canvassing. The style it's written looks really attractive.  S3000  ☎ 18:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, you people make it sound like it's against the rules! I know he/she's been blocked, but that doesn't make it a bad thing that he/she is trying to get others involved, considering all the votes as of the beginning were opposing the article. Frankly, I am glad I was contacted - the reasons listed may be somewhat true, but can be fixed by the lot of you without a speedy delete. The name is there for a reason: it is widely recognised internationally. Your input is greatly welcomed ;) BlackPearl14[talkies!•contribs!] 23:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Widely recognised internationally by whom exactly expact indians or just india you make no strong points i always here the same old thing recognised internationally BY WHO OBVIOUSLY THE INDIANS AND THATS IT PAKISTAN ALSO CALLS INDIAN ADMINISTERED KASHMIR OCCUPIED WHY NOT CALL IT OCCUPIED INSTEAD OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR it doesnt matter what india says the international community does not use that POK term lol and his message broke the rules as he sneakly told indian editors like you to delete the message before voting so he doesnt get caught with mutilple accounts do you understand??? 86.153.130.47 (talk) 09:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notifying is fine, but not canvassing (i.e. requesting a certain kind of vote, e.g. "vote for keep")  S3000  ☎ 10:29, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

exactly thats what he did by saying please save artice lol its blatant 86.153.130.47 (talk) 10:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]


  • Delete not sure where it may have forked from but article is definitely POV and most of it seems to be covered anyway at Kashmir, Pakistan, and other articles already. Jasynnash2 (talk) 10:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, PoK is a POV term used in Indian government statements and newsmedia. The term (and the Indian territorial claims) should be mentioned in the leads of the Azad Kashmir and FANA articles, but we don't need a separate PoK article for that. Likewise, the Pakistani claims should be mentioned in the lead of the Jammu and Kashmir article. --Soman (talk) 13:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete POK is a term used exclusively by India and indians it is not a widely used term its usually just called pakistani administered kashmir. 86.158.236.25 (talk) 14:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment, anonymous 'votes' are not valid in XfDs. --Soman (talk) 14:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you'll find you are incorrect on that and that any contributor to the project is allowed an opinion although, an effort to have the discussion more inline with policies and guidelines may be appropriate. Jasynnash2 (talk) 14:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

sorry didnt no i wasnt allowed to vote 86.158.236.25 (talk) 18:08, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are, but it's not a vote. Rich Farmbrough, 10:25 6 September 2008 (GMT).
  • Delete POVfork with a POVed title Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Blatant POV - inflammatory title and article contents, an article called British occupied Ireland or Russian occupied Finland would have no place on wiki and neither should this. Pahari Sahib 04:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Your reasoning is non sequiter. Russian-occupied Finland is not a term used by a contemporary political body. Similarly, British-occupied Ireland is not a term used by a government, only by bloggers. That would constitute WP:OR. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:25, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Are you it is okay to create a POV fork ostensibly on the basis that it is used officially by the Indian government. Rather than just noting this in the relevant article, why should there be an article on one nation's POV? Pahari Sahib 14:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Again your logic is false. I've mentioned that the article be redirected to Pakistan-administered Kashmir. Is that a POV? Indian-administered Kashmir and Jammu and Kashmir are the same topic as far as area is concerned. Is there a single article on Wikipedia that covers "Pakistan-administered Kashmir"? If so, we can redirect it the same way it is done to J&K. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Note see here and here Pahari Sahib 15:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • do not delete : PLEASE allow editing to take place in this article so that it gets balanced; disabling editing and then crying unbalanced is hypocrisy!!!..As we all know we didn't delete european union article just because there was an "england" article or "france" article or "germany" article (which are part of EU nevertheless) ... Similarly we did not destroy soviet union article just because it is divided into 15 parts..Further it is very very clear that POK is not the same as azad k as pok also includes trans karakoram tract...pok term is used by most if not all non pakistan media.so ip and soman contention invalid.. i think it is not "fork" since contents are not identical, verifiable, has reliable sources and differs from the other articles like "trans-Karakoram tract" or "Northern Areas" (at the maximum, there is a passing reference in the summary(if this is considered fork) style with redirect links to sub regions).So, i am opposing this high handed move based on ignorance..rather i suggest that those who suggest it as non neutral contribute towards making this neutral, if it is not already neutral..pahari sahib's contention of inflammatory not substantiated both in talk page of pok or otherwise..so DO NOT DELETEKashmircloud (talk) 10:04, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or redirect. Clearly Pakistan occupied Kashmir is a term of note, and if sufficiently different in meaning from other temrs needs at least an explanation of its meaning and use. If considered synonymous to another term it should be redirected and the usage explained in that article. Rich Farmbrough, 10:25 6 September 2008 (GMT).
  • Delete: Blatant POV fork of Azad Kashmir and Jammu and Kashmir. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 10:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep it but must rewrite it is because the Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is not only comprise Azad Kashmir and FANA areas. There is also some more areas, like the one that was passed to People Republic of China in 1960s era for use against India. If remove, then got no article to centralize all of Pakistans Kashmir regions. Differ from Indian Occupied Kashmir that is only Jammu and Kashmir province so all centralized already. But when read, it is clearly written by some Indian fellow 100 sure%. Hence we must still keep this article, but rewrite and make it neutral. No question of delete. --Blackeaglz (talk) 11:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep the article it is the Indian viewpoint just like Pakistan has got Azad Kashmir viewpoint. This article must remain to keep neutrality.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 16:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep with caveats:
    1. Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir is the term used by the Indian government, and for legal reasons followed by the media and Indian publishers
    2. The term is POV on Wikipedia, but it is real, because it exists, and cannot be *deleted* away.
    3. Redirecting PoK to Azad Kashmir is not the solution. Geographically, Azad Kashmir is a small region of the area labelled as PoK. Therefore, territorially speaking, it is inherently false.
    4. Additionally, the term Azad, which means free, is also a POV. Free in what sense? From Indian administration?
    5. As a responsible encyclopedia, it is our responsibility to mention what the term means, the area under it, who has dubbed the name, usage of the name, the reasons why it is called, and legal usage in India, Pakistan, and major countries/groups. The page should not be more than two-three paragraphs long, and must point to the articles on Jammu and Kashmir, Kashmir, the Kashmir dispute, Azad Kashmir, and FANA.
    6. I support the page be redirected to "Pakistan-administered Kashmir" that consists of the above suggested text.

=Nichalp «Talk»= 11:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep as it is an official term used by the Indian Government, similar to "Indian Occupied Kashmir" (which redirects to Jammu and Kashmir) used by Pakistan government. It is as neutral as Azad Kashmir or Northern Areas (Jammu and Kashmir), both territories are claimed by India and refered to as POK or PAK (Pakistan-Administered Kashmir). I don't disapprove of the article being redirected to PAK, which links to Azad Kashmir, and Northen Areas and gives the legal standings of India and Kashmir, also a para about the dispute and control of the region.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 12:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment, Would you support an article called "Indian-occupied Kashmir" with or without caveats? The Kashmir conflict article is the best place to expand on the dispute. This shouldn't be a one way street where it is okay to have an Indian POV fork (thus creating an imbalance against Pakistan), that happens to link other articles. This is not being neutral Pahari Sahib 13:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your question: "Would you support an article called "Indian-occupied Kashmir" with or without caveats?" is Ignoratio elenchi. The POV fork is necessary as "PoK" territories in question do not come under a single umbrella. Had Azad Kashmir referred to the same area as PoK, then the discussion would be on equal footing. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:21, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Did you see the reply by Ganeshk before posting your reply to me? The territories to which you refer to are convered under the Pakistan-administered Kashmir article so perhaps his discussion is on an "equal footing" after all. You have also stated that "The term is POV on Wikipedia, but it is real, because it exists, and cannot be *deleted* away." This seems be an implicit recognition of the fact that is indeed POV and that if conflicts with Wikipedia's NPOV policy - NPOV should be sacrosanct. I hope you will review your objections. Pahari Sahib
No, I did not see the reply. Pakistan-occupied Kashmir was a redirect to Azad Kashmir not too long back. I was not aware that this article did exist. My objection is to the article from being *deleted". Do note that my caveats mention at it be redirected to the PaK. So I guess we are now on a similar footing, with only a disagreement on deletions? =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That is correct, I think it should be deleted and then be a protected redirect to prevent recreation. Pahari Sahib 15:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
User:Kashmircloud editing to get more votes from Indian editors

if you look at his edit history([1]) he has been lobbying indian editors into voting for the article to be saved obviously the indian editors will see it as neutral i urge neutral editors to lobby for User:Kashmircloud to be blocked from editing. 86.158.235.148 (talk) 12:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC) Another thing is that he is using the same old sentences and copying and pasting the same comments on user talk pages to push his biased veiw through is this allowed? 86.158.235.148 (talk) 13:06, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes canvassing and vote-stacking shouldn't be allowed. Pahari Sahib 13:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then why is kashmircloud allowed to do it and not me ? 86.158.235.148 (talk) 13:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When did you do this and who warned you? Pahari Sahib 13:31, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it was canvassing. But what happened to the usual courtesy the nominating editor should have immediately after nominating the article for deletion. Please bear in mind that the article falls under WikiProject India. It should ideally have been posted on WP:India's talk page. In that case, I would discount the canvassing actions of the concerned. Mspraveen (talk) 13:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean in "that case", there were multiple posting, including this one on your own talk page. Why does an article supposedly about Pakistani territory fall under WP:India Pahari Sahib 13:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The noticeboard is for India-related topics. "Pakistani territory" or not, it does need to be listed as an India-related topic. You cannot argue against the logic of it not being "India-related." =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:06, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What I meant to say, why does it fall under WP India and not Pakistan. It was posted at WP India but not WP Pakistan, this does not alter the fact that was posted multiple times. Pahari Sahib 16:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Being the nominating editor I'd like to ask you if you seriously consider not notifying WikiProject India about the nomination to be omissive? __meco (talk) 13:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As Kashmircloud (talk · contribs) has only been an editor for a little over two weeks, we should assume good faith in that this user probably wasn't aware that canvassing is not acceptable in the form that the user's contributions log reveals. Assuming that this does not continue and is not repeated on future occasions there should be no need to do anything about Kashmircloud over this. I'm sure that at least some of the recipients of the polemic canvassing message will react negatively to its lack of neutrality, if not pandering. __meco (talk) 13:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If this group of indian editors agree with canvassing then i must take direct action against this and remove POK page if it is kept 86.158.235.148 (talk) 13:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

??? =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
LOL another indian editor this is POV it hits you in the face kashmircloud is allowed to do anything 86.158.235.148 (talk) 13:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment, Ganeshk is trying to compromise here. Perhaps after AFD a protected redirect? Pahari Sahib 13:48, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please keep the discussion civil. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 13:43, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

i aint got nothing against indians its just that this rogue kashmir cloud editor does anything he wants like producing POV articles like POK 86.158.235.148 (talk) 13:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This just keeps getting better and better how big is this network of canvassing ? 86.158.235.148 (talk) 13:48, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have discovered that indian editors are sending messages i.e cast788 and kashmir cloud and asking them to delete the original message regarding there POV article POK before voting can someone please open there eyes to this blatant canvassing please 86.158.235.148 (talk) 13:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They have been warned, and are probably socks. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the POK page should be deleted and agree with ganeshk on redirecting it to the pakistan administered kashmir page 86.158.235.148 (talk) 14:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep: Agreed with Nichalp. If this gets deleted then Azad should be removed from Kashmir too for Azad Kashmir. snowolfD4 ( talk / @ ) 14:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snowolfol4 (talk • contribs) [reply]

  • Keep The POV title as Nichalp and co. have summarised, cannot be a reason for deletion since there are plenty of articles with names that may offend someone and hence biased (Azad Kashmir is no differen from this one). Notability is ultimately determined by its usage in sources, and whether or not the Indian media etc. are POV, the usage of the term is common. GizzaDiscuss © 14:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Common term where exactly let me guess india the POK term is a offspring of India and will stay in India no media outlets besides indian offcourse use this term utimately if in the event this POK article is kept then a seperate page for Indian occupied kashmir must be produced to counter it 86.158.235.148 (talk) 14:36, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if you are getting wikipedia policies. Delete would mean that the title would not exist. Redirecting would mean that anyone typing Pok would be redirected to Pakistan-administered Kashmir. As spoken above, POK constitutes two regions of Pakistan-administered Kashmir, while Indian-administered Kashmir is the same as Jammu and Kashmir. Since the topic on "Indian-occupied Kashmir" is present in the lead, is it necessary to have a pure cloned fork? =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:41, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What im trying to explain is that a seperate POK article hence the one which you want to keep is totally biased and should not be used at all let alone be used as a redirect destination. Now what im tyring to explain is that that Pakistan occupied kashmir should just be a simple redirect as it is in Jammu and kashmir page not a seperate page which again is totally POV do you understand what i said if not ill talk to you on your talk page 86.158.235.148 (talk) 14:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We are calling for the article to be redirected to a more neutral title rather than it be deleted and throwing up a "page not found" on wikipedia. The discussion is here is if we have to "delete the article". If no, what are the alternate options. Let's limit the discussion to this page for the sake of all editors. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note I have added the article to WikiProject Pakistan and to WikiProject International relations and I have notified those two projects on their project talk pages (re criticism above from user:Mspraveen) __meco (talk) 14:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note, the anonymous IP number posting various messages is the banned Nangparbat (talk · contribs). I suggest he/she be ignored along the lines of don't feed the trolls. --Soman (talk) 15:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to Pakistan-administered Kashmir. Seems to be another commonly acceptable name for that region. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 15:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: merge or redirect with Pakistan-administered Kashmir. A google search for "Pakistan administered Kashmir" gives 40,000 results and a search for "Pakistan occupied Kashmir" gives 54,600 results. A special search in nytimes.com for "Pakistan administered Kashmir" (using site:nytimes.com at the end of search string in google search) generates 9 results and for "Pakistan occupied Kashmir" generates 129 results. But, these two titles refer to same geographical area, so a merge/redirect seems to be a good solution. --GDibyendu (talk) 15:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clear redirect Why do we need two articles on the same thing? Any content should be in the Pakistan-administered Kashmir. Also why the big fuss over it and the canvassing? The Bald One White cat 15:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Ultimately the instrument of accession was signed to India, and legally it belongs to India, whether rightly or wrongly is irrelevant.Pectoretalk 17:04, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now thats a typical POV sentence and its not even valid for keeping the article whos to say it belongs to india seen the recent protests against indian rule in the news ??? 86.158.235.148 (talk) 18:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but rewrite - I have to say I came here with the intention of voting for a delete, but after reading Nichalp's argument, I can't disagree with him. Azad Kashmir literally means "Free Kashmir". Isn't that a propoganda term coined and used by Pakistan too? Note that Azad Kashmir is only one part of Kashmir. There's a need for an article on all of Pakistani Kashmir (which was acquired from the 1947 war) including Northern Areas and areas that it ceded to China in 1965 (that was previously under Pakistani control). However the undeniably strong anti-Pakistani slur in the article has to be neutralised.  S3000  ☎ 19:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
S3000 unless you havent read properly the article named pakistan administered kashmi already exsists which includes all the 3 territories in pakistani kashmir whats the point of this propaganda article called POK unless you can give me a answer to this then POK article is just garbage anymore excuses beside the unification one because this is all covered in the pakistan administered kashmir article maybe we could produce a seperate indian occupied kashmir page ??? 86.158.235.148 (talk) 22:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
86.158.235.148, unless you have not remarked, Pakistan-occupied Kashmir is used by prominent political figures of the 2nd greatest nation on earth and in its official documents. Which official documents (besides blogs) do you have for Pakistan administered K., where on earth did you come across this? Bogorm (talk) 10:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC) I dont care of you think its the second greatest nation on earth lol india has no authority over earth let alone kashmir lol so your message is just illogical 86.153.130.47 (talk) 10:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mort de rire! India - 1 000 000 000 people, PRC 1 500 000 000 people, thence second largest! Bogorm (talk) 11:10, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So where are you exactly getting at and more precisely what do you mean. India doesnt judge anything over kashmir no country actually does not even pakistan if india claims it as occupied by pakistan so what lol pakistan also claims it is occupied by india a gigantic population and density means nothing its just that allot of kids are being born any country can do that even animals reproduce my freind lol 86.153.130.47 (talk) 11:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep no redirect no merge: Pakistan administered Kashmir is a term used by international community. POK is term used by India officially!!! and also in Indian media. The region is same but the views are different. It is about the mind-set of the people how it is looked at. The articles can differ in the way they are treated by different groups. It is same like Nazi Germany is different from Germany.--gppande «talk» 20:52, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Delete - possibloy re-write afterwords, but this is ridiculous. It's so PoV it's untrue! Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 20:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Untrue??? Do a google and see for yourself. --gppande «talk» 21:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please refer to the sources in the article is you feel it's untrue.  S3000  ☎ 10:25, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Even if the citations in article are poor but they can be improved. The article in itself hold's merit for keep. PS: I'm strong supporter of RS. --gppande «talk» 10:49, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Although it is POV, I'm sure the many of you who have a strong need to see this article removed can contribute to make it a lot less POV. The title, though, should stay the same, considering it is an Indian term for an Indian place (not the region of it owned by Pakistan, but the region owned by India). Although Cast788 has been blocked, I do think he/she was doing his/her duty by telling me about it - hey, I love a debate :) (note the smiley face). If you think something is POV, fix it, not so it fits your bias, but so that it fixes the neutrality problem. 'Nuff said. BlackPearl14 talkies! 23:04, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
as you can see a pattern its only indians who want to keep this heavily pro indian article 86.158.235.148 (talk) 23:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And as I can see, you're being a little racist. It has nothing to do with being Indian. I personally respect what you are saying. I just think that maybe you can help tone down the article to make it neutral - that wouldn't be so hard, now, would it? BlackPearl14[talkies!•contribs!]
One more thing: wasn't it that there is an article in a Pakistan POV on the same issue? Hmm...what was it... aha! Azad Kashmir! If this is to be deleted for POV issues, then shouldn't THAT be deleted for POV issues? BlackPearl14[talkies!•contribs!] 23:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC) What are you talking about your hypocrasy is seaping through lets just make a indian occupied kashmir page and lets see how proud indians like blackpearl react p.s i didnt make racist remarks i just said indian lol so get a grip please 86.153.130.47 (talk) 10:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Redundant and embarrassingly pov. Failing that redirect to Pakistan-administered Kashmir Dance With The Devil (talk) 03:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Do Not Delete Do not delete this article as it very ably puts forward the Indian and International view on this problem. Rather a question mark on the neutrality of the "Azad Kashmir" article should be put as it presents very distorted and disturbing facts alongwith a propagandist title. POK is an unnaturally annexed part of India's Kashmir and remains so.--Rachitbhatia1993 (talk) 04:56, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do Not Delete Do not delete this article as it very ably puts forward the Indian and International view on this problem. When you are keeping pakistani view Azad kashmir in the same way it should also be kept —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pondybaba (talk • contribs) 07:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please Do Not Delete this article as it is expressing International & Indian view on this problem. When pakistani view Azad kashmir is allowed here why not this ,else remove Azad kashmir also and keep the international view—Preceding unsigned comment added by Pondybaba (talk • contribs) 07:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raulmisir (talk • contribs)
  • Please Do Not Delete this article as it is logical to be called like that in the same way they refered Indian kashmir as Indian Administered Kashmir is the same way it should be refered as Pak Occupied KAshmir or Pakistani Administered Kashmir.Azad Kashmir is just refered by Pakistan not by world it should also be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Indianbhoot (talk • contribs) 08:10, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly keep - the notion is represented in official Indian documents such as this (permits Hurriyat leaders to travel up to Pakistan-occupied Kashmir but Pakistan escorts them up to Islamabad, Shri Rajnath Singh), here(They were convinced that capture of Muzzafarabad, now the capital of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, was imminent.; an entity called the Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK) came into being, Shri Lal Krishna Advani) and here(official document quoted: "The unanimous resolution of India’s Parliament in 1994 records that Pakistan-occupied Kashmir is an integral part of India.", quoted by the venerable Arun Jaitley). All documents are highly informative for persons from countries not involved in the controversy as me about the legal status of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir and moreover they corroborate a previous proposal I come across here to immediately move Azad Kashmir to POK, which I support. I am propense to heave the question of renaming Azad Kashmir to POK in concordance with the crucial documents quoted above and with the 1994 decision of Lok Sabha. At any rate this article is neutral, comprises numerous sources (18) and its deletion together with them would be a misdeed, marked by a complete privation of impartiality Bogorm (talk) 09:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Concerning this template above: I declare thereby that I am from a neutral location and have not been sollicited to vote by anyone Bogorm (talk) 10:03, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Read this: India bans CD-Rom for crossing the line =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Thank you for the news, however, Britain has committed innumerable atrocities during the Indian determination for independence, proceed circumspectly with their medias. Well, I am delighted to converse with an Indian. Do you find R. Singh's and Advani's quotations convincing and corroborating enough? Besides, I fully agree with the decision of the Indian goverment. Was it taken during Vajpayee's or M. Singh's tme in office? Bogorm (talk) 09:38, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I came across some online sources of Pakistani origin that refer to the area in question as PoK. See this, this and this for example.  S3000  ☎ 10:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you cared to read the article its a abstract from srinagar aka indian administered kashmir so this is not a pakistani sources its just using a qoute from indian sources understand ??? nice try though 86.153.130.47 (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC) The last article you mention is written by sushant a INDIAN lol 86.153.130.47 (talk) 10:29, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

also the second article is again qouting from indian statements from politicians as i said nice try :) 86.153.130.47 (talk) 10:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(To S3000) Magnificent. Now the usage of the term by both sides is ineffably clear-cut and this corroborates the right of this article to exist. Bogorm (talk) 10:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
is this a joke 86.153.130.47 (talk) 10:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Both are published by reputable, Pakistani sources however. By publishing it means they accept the report / article. If you claim the "Srinagar" article was taken from an Indian source, why isn't the actual source stated? as how they did here (<--and that's why I never included that). The other is published in the "Pakistan Institute of Peace Studies" website!  S3000  ☎ 10:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just because they publish qoutes doesnt mean they accept it THATS JUST A MAD CLAIM come on s3000 think properly freind your sounding very desperate at the moment with your claims 86.153.130.47 (talk) 11:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.daily.pk/world/worldnews/6917-british-mp-condemns-violence-in-indian-occupied-kashmir.html This is what pakistan thinks of indian administered kashmir lol 86.153.130.47 (talk) 11:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again you proove that the sources you provide are pathetic the source you have just provided redirects to kerelanext and its a blog lol please try again. Moving on its logic to include indian claims in pakistani newspapers the institute of peace studies is clearly qouting so please get that into your head even the indians do this if you ever bother to read the news so this claim of yours is again hopeless pakistani newspapers would never call azad kashmir POK they only qoute if you no anything of journalism qouting is used often lol srinagar is a place in india and they have many news outlets the fact that they state srinagar means some high official from there stated it because its the capital of JAMMU AND KASHMIR undertsand thats why they only use srinagar its simple really please come back with some solid evidence rather then redirects to indian sites and some lame blogs which redirect to indian sites such as kerela next and as you are misleading editors and readers 86.153.130.47 (talk) 11:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You clearly don't understand my point. I was saying that this article attributes its source to the Kerala website. However this doesn't, which suggests the report was compiled by their own reporters / correspondents in Srinagar. BTW we aren't talking about situation in Indian Kashmir. Don't stray from the topic.  S3000  ☎ 11:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I dont no how to explain this anymore ill say one last time the article from Thenews is qouting a official statement directly from srinagar (a territory under indian control) it is also the capital of indian administered kashmir so thats why they qoute it do you know how it works just research journalism and you shall understand my point. Another thing is that im not straying from the article i gave you that source to get you back into reality over what pakistan thinks of kashmir as you seem to be convincing your self with lame sources about what pakistan thinks of its own territory 86.153.130.47 (talk) 11:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A official statement by who from Srinagar? Because if it's by an Indian news agency, the source should have been stated. The fact is it is not. If there's no source stated, it means that TheNews' correspondents in Srinagar made the report. I don't think there's a rule of thumb that says Pakistani reporters in Srinagar should refer to Pakistani Kashmir as PoK.  S3000  ☎ 12:09, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, this article looks strangely familiar. Looks more like "the news" article is a clumsy copyvio. India Journal should sue :-) Pahari Sahib 12:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
S3000 i recommend you use other arguments besides the lame articles pioneered by India ones which i have layed waste to earlier on in my comments see above good luck in your search for other sources 86.153.130.47 (talk) 13:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC) S3000 if you can just click on the source provided by PahariSahib which i also found a minute ago its a clear carbon copy of your so called pakistani article please reply with your reaction 86.153.130.47 (talk) 13:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on how to move forward in the discussion, noone disputes that 'PoK' is a term used by Indian government and in Indian media to refer to areas in Kashmir under Pakistani administration. For me, there are two sets of questions that needs to be asked in order to determine this AfD. First, should PoK refer to an geographic area or a political concept? The former case (as used in [2] or [3]) is clearly unacceptable and POV. In the latter case, the follow-up question would be whether there is any detailed Indian legal framework regarding PoK? If its just a blunt territorial claim, there is no need for a PoK article, the claim can be mentioned in J&K, AJK, FANA, Kashmir, Kashmir dispute articles, etc. But if there is a more detailed framework, say that there is a planned administrate network for these areas, that PoK residents are considered as Indian citizens, that the J&K state apparatus consists of dormant districts across the LoC, etc, then an article could be kept along the lines of Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China. My understanding of Indian politics is however such that I don't believe that to be the case, thus I'd argue for deletion altogether. --Soman (talk) 10:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My point was it was posted on a well known Pakistani news resource without citing the original source. I feel that means acceptance, because it never said "according to PTI (or whatever)".  S3000  ☎ 14:03, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Talking about China and Taiwan, it seems there's a dedicated article for Chinese Taipei although it's clearly a propoganda name coined by China to consolidate its claim over Taiwan. Chihnese Taipei is only used to address Taiwan in certain sporting events.  S3000  ☎ 11:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, but why propaganda? Taiwan is part of People's Republic of China just as Pakistan-occupied Kashmir is de iure part of India. The Chinese have not committed any misdeed regarding Pakistan-occupied Kashmir which could be conducive to its modern ordeal, right? Bogorm (talk) 12:07, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But Taiwan never accepts this. They have their own argument and that's why it's called "Disputed" just as how Kashmir is. While you side China and India (on Taiwan and Kashmir), others have different viewpoints.  S3000  ☎ 12:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I understand this. If POK is a commonly understood term, we should have an article on it. If an article Pakistan-administered Kashmir deals with the exact same geographic area, then we already have an article on POK and we need a simple redirect from POK to P-aK. The question should be "will there be (a reasonable number of) wikipedia users who will search for an article on POK?" rather than for us to try to make a decision on the political or geographical merits of the name and the region. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 12:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, one billion users (population of Bharat)! Moreover, look at the three official sources above, using POK. Which non-Pakistani source would condescend to using PaK and show a blatant POV? Mine opinion is that PaK should redirect to POK, not vice versa. Bogorm (talk) 12:38, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
RegentsPark its a common fact that pakistanis portion of kashmir is regarded as administered by THE WORLD but some indian editors mainly on wikipedia insist it is occupied if that isnt POV then what is ?? 86.153.130.47 (talk) 13:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Pakistan-administered Kashmir is the neutral way of collectively referring to this area. For non Pakistani sources how about here (Jane's Defence Weekly. Or the UNHCR, the BBC, CNN. Do all one billion people of India think exactly alike? and report things in exactly the same manner? How about an Indian website or Redriff another Indian website or AOL India
Pahari Sahib 13:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral or not, we can't wish away the term POK. A simple google search reveals 55,400 hits for POK and 27,400 for P-aK. Since P-aK appears to be more neutral (Q: What does the UN call the region?), we can keep POK as a redirect to P-aK. Can't just ignore it though. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 14:09, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One billion lol theres not even 35 million internet users in India freind your claims are so pathetic that its hurt now. Moving on India doesnt dictate anything over kashmir nor does pakistan the world calls both territories administered its not rocket sceince86.153.130.47 (talk) 13:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Audiatur et altera pars - one billion users from Bharat! Bogorm (talk) 13:29, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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