Talk:Reggaeton

Review

the article has currently only 2 sectins (history and across world) think it could be expanded to topics like criticism, technique user:andersmusician --190.42.191.129 05:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Well spotted, separated musical characteristics from history in the main article.Birdseed 06:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Good article reassessment

I believe this article fails to meet criterion 2 of the Good Article criteria. I have asked for it to be reassessed at WP:GAR. --Agüeybaná 21:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The article has been delisted: the discussion is linked from the article history template above. Good luck improving the article. Geometry guy 20:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Reggaetón in Spain!

Something is wrong! The reggaetón is not popular in Spain since the Latin-American immigration. It is popular because Spain is a Hispanic country and the cultural proximity between Spain and Latin-America is stronger than between Spain and remainder of Europe!! The major part of "gringos" (not Hispanic people) perhaps does not know this, but it's however the truth!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.164.3.178 (talk) 17:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm spanish, and I can tell you that nobody knew what the hell was Reggeton until a couple of years ago, it began to be popular with the arrival of Latin American inmigrants. And nobody uses the word "gringo" in Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.125.27.123 (talk) 10:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The first reggeton song that arrived to spain was "Papi chulo" in 2003, before that nobody knew about reggeaton in spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.125.27.123 (talk) 10:36, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I too am Spanish and disagree with the suggestion that Spain is somehow closer to Latin American than Europe. Spaniards have a solid European identity -- politically, economically and culturally. Obviously, there are cultural affinities between Spain and Latin America, but if the previous writer is suggesting that that affinity overrides Spain's European identity, I disagree.

These comments seem to just be personal opinions about Spain. One can not speak for a nation, especially one as diverse as Spain. Reggaeton IS popular in Spain. Just ask Alejandro Sanz or David Bisbal, whom have each sang on a Reggaeton song. And I am sure that there many other Spanish artists who have been on reggaeton songs. --Puertomeno

Objectionable

Using the word "objectionable" to describe explicit language is inappropriate, since it explicitly judges such language is something to be disapproved of. The word is used like that several places in the text.

192.38.5.162 01:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Even though the regular studio version of Barrio Fino was not labeled explicit.

That's because Barrio Fino was edited by default. There was no need for the explicit lyrics label. Listen to "Golpe de Estado ft Tommy Viera" (track 18). Around 25 seconds in Tommy Viera says "Esta pendejá termina en rifles y comenzó con palos." The word "pendejá" is covered up with a sound effect. Note however that the album itself does not state that it is censored. --Pasajero (talk) 16:52, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Dem Bow

I found a sample of the "Dem Bow" instrumental rhythm here, and I was wondering if it can be incorporated into the article, somehow. Blackjays1 (talk) 09:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind, I just added it in the 'History' section. Blackjays1 (talk) 22:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

My name is Donaldo Clarke (donone10@hotmail.com) and i'm a follower of dancehall reggae music since the 70's, and reggaeton from panama (they call it spanish reggae)

First of all let me give you the true story of the "dem bow" instrumental. and this is something that puerto ricans and some panamanians don't know at all.

Wikipedia that rhythum you guys have posted as dem bow mp3 sample, in reality is not called "dem bow". its called originally "Pocomanjam" produced by jamaicans Bobby Digital and Steely and Cleavie in 1990. and jamaican artist like Cutty Ranks, Gregory Peck, Shabba Ranks and others used that riddim to record their songs; and Shabba ranks who at the time was the king of the dancehall recorded the song "dem bow" in that rhythum.

The word "Dem bow" comes from the jamaican language patois. and it describes people commiting fellatio. especially people of the same sex. thats why Shabba ranks recorded the song degrading those of the same sex commiting those acts.

Now the rhythum that the latin people from Puerto rico called "dem bow" originally is called "Pounder" which was produced by 2 producers in NYC. One panamanian and one jamaican. Ramon Bustamante and Dennis Halliburton known as Dennis the Menace who has worked in the past with panamanian artist like Killa Ranks and El General. Jamaican Reggae/dancehall artist Sleepy Wonder and Bobo General recorded the song "Pounder" and the riddim became known as Pounder. and panamanian artist Nando Boom recorded on that riddim "Pension" and "Dem bow" in that riddim. Thats how puerto ricans got the name "dem bow" when they heard it for the first time from the panamanian songs especially from Nando Boom. That rhytum in Panama is known as "Pounder". some of them call it dem bow also but for those who know about this real good in reality is called "Pounder".

When the reggaeton from Panama during the early 90's was introduced to the mainstream thanks to El General and Nando Boom. Puerto rican producers DJ Negro and Playero went to Panama during a presentation of puerto rican rapper Lisa M and they ask panamanian producer Ramon Bustamante for those rhythums and they took it to the island and used it for their series The Noise and Playero combining it with hip hop sounds. the rhythum that you hear nowadays is the "Pounder" rhythum but was modified by the puerto ricans and have used some samplings from other old school dancehall rhythums like "Fever Pitch". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.8.89.2 (talk) 18:51, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Mainstream Popularity

I widely dissagree with it´s popularity, Mainstream on latin america? Yes, worldwide? Bah, pure blalant lies, i´m from venezuela, and reggaetón has not extended through all south america, considering the fact many latin rock musicians are still prolipherant in this continent, Such as, Maná, Carlos Santana, and Carajo, and even Candy_66

My opinion? i widely dissagree with that statement, it just gives a false idea that Reggaeton is even close to "Dominating" the world´s music market.

- Sincerely, Juan Planas, greetings from Venezuela.

English Reggaeton

Why does it say "The music is also combined with rapping or singing in Spanish, English or 'Spanglish'."? Name me one reggaeton track entirely in english? I think this should be removed as Reggaeton is never in english, and the closest it does come to being in english is Spanglish which is already stated. TeePee-20.7 (talk) 05:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Please only write constructive critisims in this discussion. Only this way will the Reggaeton page improve. Thank You - Puertomeno

Additions

Removing some recent additions. First involves a ref which is simply a mirror of the older version of this wikipedia page, its all Wiki content. The second is a reference to a beat style that can't even be found anywhere on the web. One entire section is completely copyvio from: news.nacla.org/2007/12/17/reggaeton-nation/ and the completion of that section is from a POV piece on a non-authority site. The dembow beats comment are redundant, it reiterates points already established. The new comments on reggaeton in the U.S. are a mix of original research and a poorly worded interpretation of the Phoenix article. The DY show was pulled by ABC. A good bit of content added is also POV but slipped in under the guise of being referenced, which it isn't. The rest removed is blatantly copyvio.

Before adding new content, make sure that 1. It's not simply copied and pasted from another source, 2. Everything added can be completely found in the reference it precedes, 3. It's objective and not opinion. 68.155.97.188 (talk) 04:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Revisions

To prevent pointless edit warring as part of a university's ongoing "class project", a few points need to be established again.

1. You can't copy and paste text from another source, you can't lift sections of a book or newspaper verbatim, for copyright reasons.

2. You can't use terms like "many people think" or "some people" without clarifying who those people are with a quality reference that clearly addresses the subject matter.

3. If you add something unreferenced, expect it to be removed if it's questionable. There are way too many personal observations being added with nothing to back it up.

4. Google is your friend. Make sure that you're not adding something that's so obscure that it isn't fluff for the wiki entry.

The following is a breakdown of the most recent edits to the page. The "Panamanians claiming reggaeton as their own," and "without them it wouldn't have caught on." While I agree with the latter, it's still inarguably Point Of View, and it doesn't belong unless its properly referenced. Someone can just as easily argue that without Puerto Rico, Salsa wouldn't have caught on, although its origins are in Cuba. The reference to Reggaeton widening when PR and Cuban styles merged is not only unreferenceable, its wrong. Reggaeton wasn't even popular in Cuba until years after it started picking up steam in the U.S. The Nando Boom reference was unused because he was only popular in Panama, whereas El General's album (with Son Bow) was a Latin-American smash. This is why many publications concede that El General was responsible for the popularity of the dem bow beat amongst Latinos, furthermore that section is referenced with a link relating to his album, there are no references related to Nando Boom's music. I removed the sections that use a reference to a publication that doesn't even exist yet (a "forthcoming" work, that's not a property reference. I removed some of the copyvio content that was taken verbatim from various sources. I removed the France section because it is a link to a French translation of an old version of the Reggaeton wiki. It's a mirror site with a few POV comments added in, its not a proper reference. The japoñol section was removed because it's incredibly obscure. The only reason why it even has any listings on Google is because the label Los Kalibres is on sent out a press release, which any site or music blog with an RSS feed picked up on. One group mixing Spanish and Japanese does not constitute an entire new movement, otherwise we'll have to list every country in the world that has at least one group performing native music to a reggaeton beat. Can you name one other group from Japan besides Los Kalibres doing reggaeton?

As a final note, its irrelevant if an editor considers themselves an authority on a subject because someone happened to use their article as one reference out of 20 listed. I've written most of this article over the years, I'm an authority on reggaeton, but I don't include what I can't properly back up with references. Wikipedia is not a place for POV additions. That includes slipping POV comments amongst already referenced ones, to make it seem like they're referenced. Stick to what you can reference, and avoid narcissistic referencing when possible. 68.155.97.188 (talk) 20:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Ongoing Revisions

The section on women in reggaeton is both copyvio and partially POV (encylcopedias don't use all caps for emphasis). It would be a plus to have a section for this in the wiki, but someone is constantly copy-pasting content form copyrighted works.

The section on reggaeton in Cuba is improperly referenced. A whole paragraph with POV overtones will be followed with a reference, but a quick check shows that the reference doesn't support the actual content added. We're also seeing ongoing issues with "forthcoming" work being used as a reference, which isn't allowed. 74.228.158.68 (talk) 08:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

unsourced

Reggaeton lacks melody nor harmony:

See definition from Cambridge Dictionary:

harmony:a pleasant musical sound made by different notes being played or sung at the same time; first of all, in reggaeton the sounds are not compounded: only a single note (singer), and the beat are simultaneous. The pleasentness is arguable too; but this is indeed a personal feeling.

Melody :An arrangement of single tones in a meaningful sequence; reggaeton tracks lack musical phrases (like, for example rock music has in bridges, repeated strings of chords joining parts of the song).

Lyrics&sexism In Spain, in the Canary Island the Instituto Canario de la Mujer (a council advocate for women´s rights) complained to the TV Network Telecinco about airing reggaeton videos, for its sexism; in Puerto Rico, the Comisión Nacional de Espectáculos Públicos y Radiofonía also forbid a video [[1]]. If you listen to "gasolina", for example (and get to understand the broken Spanish), it is clear that it´s has a implicit sexism. And the videos: halfnude women alongside fat chaps "singing" Racism In Spain, there have been quarrells between Spaniards and Latin gangs, associated with this music [[2]]. --Xareu bs (talk) 09:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The "lacks melody or harmony" comments are completely absurd. That's all a matter of opinion.

It´s not a matter of opinion. These are musical concepts well defined; the structure of reggaeton doesn´t suit them (if so, read the respective articles in wikipedia)--Xareu bs (talk) 12:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Do some reggaeton songs contain misogynistic lyrics? Yes, but that's why references from established news sources are needed if you plan on adding something like that. But to generalize reggaeton videos as "halfnude women alongside fat chaps singing" demonstrates how little you know about the genre (try watching a video by La Sista, or "Angelito" by Don Omar).

Finally, as far as xenophobia in Spain, all the article you posted a link to validates is that xenofobia EXISTS in Spain (as it does in many countries). It doesn't mention reggaeton, I'd be amazed if you can find a single reference on the entire web that supports that reggaeton causes a rift between Spaniards and non-Spanish. And even then, it's probably not noteworthy enough to mention in this article. Your edits are point of view, even the reasons you give when you made the edits (look in a Spanish club, etc) is based on opinion and personal experience. Wikipedia is based on what we can prove. 74.228.158.68 (talk) 09:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

if you read the bottom line of the page, you´ll see the comment by people involved in the raw about reggaeton as a trigger for this affair; there are many blogs showing this attitude towards this music [[3]] (I am not saying that´s good, only that´s a fact there is this attitude).--Xareu bs (talk) 12:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Since you felt the need to make a 4th revision before I could even type a response on the talk page, I've reported you to Wikipedia admins for violating 3RR. 74.228.158.68 (talk) 09:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

to the anonymous vandal

I´m fed up with your keeping saying I´m not sourcing. Please, give me an adress to send you a method of learning how to read. I´ve quoted: lyrics from actual and representative tunes to show it´s sexist. What do you want me to quote, the lyrics of all reggaeton songs?. By the way, I´ve used the two songs which are cited by this article as very popular in Spain,not cherry picking at all
complains by an official bureu in Spain; see [[4]]
for the harmony and melody issues, consult their deffinition in the Wikipedia. The three times beat with the loud voices (defined in this article) do not meet those characteristics
for more about sexism, consult the Spanish Wikipedia
, with more concerns (Honduras and Puerto Rico) --Xareu bs (talk) 14:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

sexism complaint (Spanish)

this is the actual complaint to a women´s rights association (from [5])

• 1.993 denuncias: Vídeo clips de música latina y reggaeton que se emiten en Tele 5. Video clips de música latina y reaggeton que se emiten en Telecinco. Anuncios de Cds sobre este estilo musical. o MOTIVO: Tanto las imágenes como las letras, denigran a las mujeres, usan su cuerpo como reclamo y normalizan diversas formas de violencia, especialmente la de género. Ejemplo de letra: Pégala, mátala, zorra. Pégala si se pone rebulera. Maseteala, que eso es lo que anda buscando

--Xareu bs (talk) 08:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

PINK!

When did the infobox change to the colour pink?! And why? TeePee-20.7 (talk) 13:39, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Page move

Hi. I notice that this page has been moved back to the title Reggaetón from the unaccented title Reggaeton. I don't see any discussion of this recent move, and I wonder whether it was made with knowledge of the previous extensive discussion about the title. Most of it can be found at Talk:Reggaeton/Archive 1. Due to the agreement that was previously arrived at, I'm inclined to suggest that this page move back to the title without diacritics. Opinions? -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The article should be reverted back to it's original title, without the accent. Looks like someone changed it without discussing it first.74.228.158.68 (talk) 22:23, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Move  reverted. If anyone wants to change the title, feel free to start a new discussion (WP:CCC). --Agüeybaná 23:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Origins

Reggaeton originated from Panama, so please do not change it to Puerto Rico. - Puertomeno

In reality Reggaeton is basically Spanish Dancehall or Latin Dancehall. Panamanians call it Spanish Reggae or La Plena but in reality is Spanish dancehall. that beat that you guys hear from todays reggaeton its one of those old school beat of the early 90's BUT was modified later by puerto ricans.

Both Panama and Puerto rico got their own style; Panamanians don't just use one repetitive rhythum for every song. they are use many diferent rhythums for their own productions.

Some people say that without the "dem bow" beat it is no longer reggaeton. the genre is more than just one beat. and they producers and artist who have been in the game for so many years need to show that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.8.89.2 (talk) 19:04, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Discussions

Please only write constructive critisisms in this duscussion. Only this way will the Reggaeton page improve. Thank You - Puertomeno —Preceding unsigned comment added by Puertomeno (talk • contribs) 21:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

i am extremely disappointed

where is vico c and el general(the first to start the movement) these guys are the true roots of reggaeton... you guys know nothing of this movement... there was a time when this article had some substance, now is worthless....

From Donaldo Clarke:

People from the around the world think that is started with El General in the early 90's. As a panamanian who has been listening to this music since the 80's and reggae and dancehall since the 70's; Panama did not start with El General. it started with with a local panamanian artist name Renato in 1984. and El General took it and introduced it outside of Panama to the latin audience and caribbean audience and in the USA in the early 90's along with Nando Boom.

Vico-C has always been a spanish hip hop artist. and he himself said that he started to know about this movement from the panamanians and his first reggae song he recorded i believe was in the early 90's titled "Bomba para fincar".

Lisa M in 1991 recorded JaricanJive combining spanish rap with reggae; she "borrowed" a lyrical line from legendary Dancehall/reggae artist King Yellowman's song called "Operation Radication".

By Donaldo Clarke —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.8.89.2 (talk) 19:18, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

This article should be semi-protected from vandals. It appears that every time a change is made to the article, that change is always vandalism or a clean-up of vandalism. Blackjays1 (talk) 19:40, 17 September 2008 (UTC)