Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion

Merge

Given that CSD I8 has been modified quite a while ago to allow immediate deletion, I suggest we merge Category:Images on Wikimedia Commons and Category:Images with the same name on Wikimedia Commons into Category:Candidates for speedy deletion to streamline and facilitate such deletions. Comments welcome. (cross-posted here, CAT:NC, CAT:NCT, and CAT:CSD) —kurykh 19:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see any real problem here. Xclamation point 21:20, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree, CAT:NCT is out of control. Conscious (talk) 17:40, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree - less is more when it comes to different places to go to find CSD candidates. Happy‑melon 09:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Why do I8 deletions at all? Doesn't help us. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Can some admin fix the template for A7?

The text that gets transcluded by {{db-bio}}("This page may meet Wikipedia’s criteria for speedy deletion as an article about a real person that does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject. Note that books, albums, software etc., or schools, are not eligible for this criterion.") does not include the words "organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content", which are present in the policy, so the tag is thoroughly confusing for a newcomer. VG ☎ 17:35, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

db-bio is for use on biographies. For others, use {{db-a7}}, {{db-org}}, {{db-band}}, {{db-club}}, {{db-corp}}, {{db-web}} etc. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 11:51, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

In other words, {{db-a7}} is the 'main' template for the A7 criterion, not {{db-bio}}. {{db-bio}}, {{db-org}}, {{db-band}}, {{db-club}}, {{db-corp}}, {{db-web}} etc are all versions that use more specific wording for specific types of articles. You shouldn't put, for instance, {{db-bio}} on an article about a website - either use {{db-web}} or the general {{db-a7}}. Happy‑melon 14:05, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I guess Twinkle needs to be fixed then. It puts a {{db-bio}} whenever I choose a A7, even though the explanatory text in Twinkle's message box correctly reflects the current A7 criteria. Thanks for the detailed explanation. VG ☎ 17:30, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I think I've fixed that. Try it and let me know (I don't use Twinkle myself, so can't check). Happy‑melon 17:51, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, now it doesn't work at all. I stays stuck trying to read tags from the page. The other TW A7 criteria radio boxes work though. Also see: Wikipedia_talk:Twinkle/Bugs#TW-B-192_.28open.29 VG ☎ 01:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Images and media

As a photographer who uses watermarks to protect his work in the internet age I am finding that some of the MODs at Wiki are citing a "no watermark" policy. I do not see this listed here. I am given section 3 as the main reason for image deletion (Improper license. Images licensed as "for non-commercial use only", "non-derivative use" or "used with permission" that were uploaded on or after May 19, 2005, except where they have been shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content. This includes images licensed under a "Non-commercial Creative Commons License". Such images uploaded before May 19, 2005 may also be speedily deleted if they are not used in any articles.) however when I quote the section back, because it clearly says ...except where they have been shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content. This includes images licensed under a "Non-commercial Creative Commons License" the reason for the deletion suddenly changes from CSD I3 to the watermark. I am sorry but I have read and re-read and I see nothing about a watermark being a valid reason for deletion here. It has been suggested that if an image has a watermark than is most likely not the persons image who uploaded it and in my case that if I wanted to "prove" I am the photographer I have to give a clean copy to Wiki. There are two basic "wrongs" with that - one asking for someone to give away their work to "prove" something is just stupidity. The other is, again, I do not see this "reason" listed here. In doing a search I find something that I 100% agree with, however it seems some Wiki mods are 100% opposed to. Copy attack has the following: In some scenarios, a digital watermark is added to a piece of media such as an image, movie, or audio clip, to prove its authenticity. If a piece of media were presented and found to lack a watermark, it would be considered suspect.

So thusly my suggestion is to rewrite the licensing rules (I was told by one mod there was only one license used here so if this is now true you must delete all other ones from all pages) and the CSD rules as it relates to images. Also either purchase non-public domain images from the photographer for use here or allow professional photographers to choose a license that suits their work rather than have a mod force only one choice upon them - "give it to us or don't". That elitist attitude does not make me want to help out Wiki Soundvisions1 (talk) 05:47, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it's not about watermarks. Your image has been deleted three times because is was never uploaded with a licence acceptable for Wikipedia. Wikipedia aims to be free content, reusable by anyone, including for modifications and commercial use. CC-BY-NC-ND is not acceptable for this. So thank you for your offer, but we don't take it. Conscious (talk) 06:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Just a question, is there any deletion criteria for an image with a watermark? Or do we allow those? Matty - (Talk) 09:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

There's no speedy deletion criterion but Wikipedia:IUP#User-created_images forbids it.

To the original poster, there are many acceptable licenses for Wikipedia: see WP:ICT/FL for a list. Stifle (talk) 09:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Is anyone reading Wikis own guidelines? I have tried make it easy and even guide people to the spot that is given as reason for deletion yet also shows what is allowed. Once again:

CSD I3 : Improper license. Images licensed as "for non-commercial use only", "non-derivative use" or "used with permission" that were uploaded on or after May 19, 2005, except where they have been shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content. This includes images licensed under a "Non-commercial Creative Commons License". Such images uploaded before May 19, 2005 may also be speedily deleted if they are not used in any articles..

To respond to Conscious. You said: Your image has been deleted three times because is was never uploaded with a license. Wrong. It was uploaded with a license. You than state: CC-BY-NC-ND is not acceptable for this. Wrong. Please take a moment a read the Wiki guidelines that we are discussing here: CSD I3 and please note the wording of what I am specifically asking/discussing: except where they have been shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content. This includes images licensed under a "Non-commercial Creative Commons License".

To respond to Stifle: That was my point, that currently Wiki allows for various type of licenses yet I was told by a mod that there was only one license. Thusly, if that is true, my suggestion of rewriting all Wiki pages that say there are other forms of licenses. CSD I3, the section of this discussion, clearly talks about more than one license.

Matty re-asked what I also did and was answered by Stifle that "There's no speedy deletion criterion" for an image to be removed because of a watermark. Thank you for acknowledging that there is currently no policy on the CSD I3 page. I feel that Mods can not, nor should they, cite this page as reason for deletion because of a watermark when there is no mention of that being a criteria for speedy deletion. As for the other part of the response - acceptable for Wikipedia was never an issue because it has never been cited by anyone, at anytime, other than right now. This discussion is about CSD I3 and how it is being cited in order to delete images that do not meet any of the criteria listed for speedy deletion. I will take time to read acceptable for Wikipedia and comment on that particle discussion page if need be.

Soundvisions1 (talk) 13:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The issue you're having is that you're misunderstanding I3. Noncommercial licenses are not acceptable for images hosted on the English Wikipedia servers. This is because all content (including images) en.wiki is licensed under the GFDL, which does not stipulate that reuse must be noncommercial. Unless I'm mistaken, however (which I may be), the Wikimedia Commons should accept CC-BY-NC licenses. Cheers. lifebaka++ 14:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

You are mistaken I'm afraid, Commons doesn't accept images for non-commercial use only either. See here for example. Iain99^{Balderdash and piffle} 14:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. lifebaka++ 15:23, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

As for the OP, you're misreading WP:CSD#I3. "This includes images licensed under a "Non-commercial Creative Commons License" means that CC-NC licences are included in what can be speedily deleted, not what cannot. Possibly by itself the sentence is a little ambiguous, but it should be clear from the context of the criterion as a whole (which allows speedy deletion of material licensed "for non-commercial use only", which obviously applies to CC-NC), and from the quote linked immediately afterwards, clarifying that NC and ND licenses are not acceptable. Iain99^{Balderdash and piffle} 14:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

First to address the "you're not reading correctly" type comments. I have re-re-re-read the section I am talking about. It does not say only one one thing (speedy deletion of material licensed "for non-commercial use only"), it says several. It first lays out what the criteria are for SD. What comes next seems to be what most people are missing. There is very important word that puts what follows it into a clear context - that word is except. Unless the definition of that word has changed it means that the 1.rules are 2.EXCEPT 3.exceptions to the rule. It is very clear and there is not a way to misread it as written. And I, again, am only pointing out here that if there is, in reality, with no exceptions, only one license and that it does not have any "exceptions" than this section needs to be re-written. lifebaka asked about Wikimedia and I have already explored that option however, as Iain99 mentioned, they have a clearly defined set of rules with no grey areas or exceptions. To summarize - If it isn't free for all we won't accept it. Wiki is not that black and white on the issue and that is really why I created this topic. (And I want to mention I did read the acceptable for Wikipedia page and will be adding a discussion there because, again, grey areas exist. I will not get into those here only to say that as far as watermarking goes it appears to be another "Exception" rule, although an unwritten one. In my case the fact I want to protect my work is reason for deletion the "exception" is in the other watermarked images the watermarking is allowed because there are no copyrights on the image, or the photographer released it into public domain. However, as stated above, the CSD page makes zero mentions of watermarking being a reason for speedy deletion, if it is it should be added here and it should be clear as to either all watermarked images go or what the "exceptions" are.)

Just a little edit here - Iain99 posted a link to a "quote" however it is not a quote from this section. It seems to be a comment on a page about an image on Wikimedia, which has a separate (and IMO, more clearly defined set of rules).

Soundvisions1 (talk) 16:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Right, right, I'm sorry. I'm not terribly up on my image CSD. Still, the deleted version don't appear to have had fair use rationales, which means that they did qualify for I3. I have no idea if a claim for fair use could be made, as that is not an area I'm very involved in, but I suggest having the fair use rationale ready to go before uploading again if you plan to. Cheers. lifebaka++ 16:44, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

There are two considerations here:

• Previously unpublished, user-created images cannot be used under a fair use rationale, per WP:NFCC#4. Thus they must be released under an acceptable free license, such as CC-BY-SA or GFDL.
• User-created images cannot have watermarks, per Wikipedia:IUP#User-created_images.

Any user who is not willing to release their original work under a free license without watermarks will not be able to contribute that original work to Wikipedia. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

My take. Almost all watermarks do not have reliable sources discussing the watermark. The watermark by itself may be enough to prevent a user-created images from being used under a fair use rationale, per WP:NFCC#8. Where no reliable source material discusses the watermark, the watermarked image cannot be shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content per WP:NFCC#8. Without meeting WP:NFCC#8, the image has no reasonable basis for being used in an article. In such cases, the watermarked image may be removed from an article and CSD I3 and CSD I5 may apply. The watermarked image may be viewed as a derivative work and both the underlying image and derivative work/watermarked image would need to meet WP:NFCC. There is the additional issue of copyright holder approval to make the derivative work, which seems to be a separate copyright issue outside of WP:NFCC#8 that would need to be resolved before allowing the image to be displayed in Wikipedia. Expressly prohibiting watermarks except where the image is intended to demonstrate watermarking avoids these and other issues. -- Suntag ☼ 17:50, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I can't follow what you're saying. User-created images can never be used as nonfree media, watermarked or not, because of WP:NFCC#4. But I don't see what WP:NFCC#8 (signficance) has to do with it. I think it's a red herring. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Watermarked images cannot meet WP:NFCC#8 without reliable sources expressly discussing how the watermark or image with watermark would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic. In otherwords the watermark itself cannot be ignored in applying WP:NFCC#8. Also, images with watermarks fail Wikipedia:Image use policy unless, of course, the image itself is intended to demonstrate watermarking. -- Suntag ☼ 18:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all so far for the input, I appreciate it. I want to try and keep this topic on two facts as it relates to the main article, CSD, and they are:

• CSD I3 and its exceptions as written, including the links to valid CCL.
• The lack of a CSD policy being in place for images that have watermarks of any kind.

It is fine to cite where the information can be found, and why is exists, but how do "the powers that be" clean it up so Mods (and other who make Image CSD requests) can more easily locate it rather than the CSD being cited because...well, just "because".

As for the other issues that Suntag, CBM and other mention you might want to take that part of the discussion over to Image use, grey areas, confusion and Photographer rights.Soundvisions1 (talk) 21:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I've rewritten I3 to express the intention of Jimbo and the current practice that CC-NC images are deleteable and not acceptable. Stifle (talk) 10:57, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

A7 and Schools

At Conserve School DRV, there are opinions that all schools to not qualify for A7. However, it doesn't seem reasonable to say that all school articles contain a reasonable indication of why the school might be important or significant. If schools qualify for A7, the question then is whether schools are an exception to A7. A7 now reads "If controversial, as with schools, list the article at Articles for deletion instead." In other words, schools do qualify for A7, but if the particular A7 school deletion is controversial, then list the article at Articles for deletion instead. As now worded, A7 does not provide a clear exception for all schools. Speedy delete says "These criteria are worded narrowly, so that in most cases reasonable editors will agree what does and does not meet a given criterion." However, some reasonable editors can interpret A7 as not applying to any school and other reasonable editors can interpret A7 as applying to each school on a case by case basis. A7 does not appear to be worded narrowly so that reasonable editors may not agree on what does and does not meet the A7 criterion. Additionally, "controversial" adds a layer of speedy delete analysis beyond the standard "Where reasonable doubt exists, discussion using another method under the deletion policy should occur instead." This is not a request to reevaluate the current A7/schools consensus (whatever it may be). If there was consensus that all schools (or, more precisely, primary and secondary schools but not Joe's school of auto repair) should be an A7 exception, then that should be explicitly provided in A7. In other words, the wording of A7 should be change to reflect current consensus on the speedy delete school issue so that A7 once again becomes worded narrowly to where reasonable editors will agree what does and does not meet a given criterion. -- Suntag ☼ 17:26, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The idea is that simply being a school is good enough to no longer make A7. Whether or not a school is notable deserves more time than speedy is built to utilize. The current wording says this, though perhaps it could be clearer? Cheers. lifebaka++ 17:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it could be clearer. How about replacing "Other article types are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at Articles for deletion instead." With

"Other article types, as well as school articles, are not eligible for deletion by this criterion."

Schools could be focused to mean only primary and secondary schools, but that should be done only if needed (or applicable). -- Suntag ☼ 18:25, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I never felt that schools or other "social institutions" count as organisations. In that spirit I'd widen the exception, like "If controversial, as with public organisations" or something. --Amalthea^Talk 19:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the current wording is also meant to capture the idea that even if an article is in one of the A7 categories (org, bio, group, web etc.) and you do not believe it asserts importance, it should not be deleted under A7 if you are aware that it is controversial such as for a school. A school is certainly an organisation and if they were not mentioned on this page then they would fall under this criteria. However most schools do not get deleted at AFD - Keep/Merge/Redirect are much more common outcomes - so speedying schools which would likely not get deleted at AFD is not a good idea. I would like the wording to retain the idea, in this criteria in particular, that speedying articles which would be not be very clear cut at AFD should not happen, with schools used as the example. Davewild (talk) 18:40, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

A7 already reads "Where reasonable doubt exists, discussion using another method under the deletion policy should occur instead," which can be added explicitly to A7. The additional "controversial" test reraises the issue each time. Yes, schools were controversial, but how about today? Consensus can change. That schools are controversial is a settled issue. I would be fine with replacing "Other article types are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at Articles for deletion instead." With

"Other article types, as well as school articles, are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at Articles for deletion instead."

This makes clear that A7 does not apply to schools, avoids determinine whether schools are an organisation or social institutions, and makes no substantive change to A7. -- Suntag ☼ 20:41, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

• The question of what institutions or organizations should be eligible for A7 is a more general one. There's been instruction slip here--the word "organisation" was added without discussion during one ofthe many rewritings about two years ago. Personally, I think that it was a mistake altogether. DGG (talk) 00:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

• Except for web content, A7 seemed to apply to importance/significance human activity rather than products and services produced by humans. Institutions and organizations are hybrid human activity resulting in service output. If the human activity predominates an institution or organizations, then A7 should apply. If the service output predominates an institution or organizations (as with a school), then A7 should not apply. Muddy? Yes. -- Suntag ☼ 14:28, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

• Resolved - Between this discussion and Conserve School DRV, it is clear that A7 does not apply to school articles. I revised the policy to ensure that everyone is on the same page and DRV doesn't keep seeing these A7 school article deletions. -- Suntag ☼ 14:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Talk pages

Should new criteria be drawn up for speedy deletion of talk pages? Simply south (talk) 10:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

What is not presently covered? All the "G" criteria (G is for "General") cover talk pages. fish&karate 10:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

What do you have in mind? Stifle (talk) 10:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Blanked talk pages, talk pages covering redirects and disambiguation pages with no discussion, talk pages as redirects Simply south (talk) 11:18, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why any of those pages need to be deleted, except talk pages as redirects perhaps, those could be misleading. I'm particularly thinking that talk pages of redirects and disambiguation pages with no discussion do not need to be deleted—they're not doing any harm by existing. Darkspots (talk) 11:31, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Darkspots here. Is there a specific advantage to deleting them? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 11:44, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. When a page and its talk page is moved (by a non-admin) the talk page automatically redirects to the target talk page, IIRC. There are also cases when a redirecting talk page with a topic page that isn't a redirect makes sense to keep the discussion centralized, e.g. Template talk:Fact/doc or User talk:ClueBot.
Talk pages of redirects aren't worthy of deletion. We have a WikiProject Redirect that tags pages like Talk:METALLICA, many talk pages of redirects have an {{oldafdfull}} notice or some other discussion preceding a merge that should be kept. Blanked talk pages can just as well be kept, or often be tagged with a wikiproject banner anyway. --Amalthea^Talk 20:01, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Speedy delete a stub because it is a stub?

Minutes after creation, the stub Route choice (orienteering) was tagged for speedy deletion. Hello? Speedy tagging (ahem) seems like a good way to waste time: the tagger's own time and the stub contributors' time too. --Una Smith (talk) 22:30, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

When you created the article [1], you were presented with the advice "As you create the article, provide references to reliable published sources. Without references, the article may be deleted." While the reason for tagging this article was a lack of content (CSD:A1) rather than a lack of sources, in practice articles that include sources are rarely tagged for deletion by the new page patrollers. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Nonetheless, tagging it as "lacking sufficient context to identify the subject of the article" is very debatable – and BTW I'm still convinced that the incorrect description as "Little or no context" in Twinkle is in great parts responsible for that. Amalthea^Talk 22:53, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Looking at this revision it is impossible to tell what "Route choice" is. That is A1. NPPers are not psychic; they can't tell if someone is going to further expand an article or leave it as an ambiguous one-line stub. ~ User:Ameliorate! ^{(with the !) (talk)} 23:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

disagree totally--that it every was a no context--the very first revision gives the general subject in the very title of the article, links to two other articles to establish context, and has a number of see alsos. That;'s context, by my standards. Not the least ambiguous. Not by itself more than a dicdef at that point, but by no means a speedy A1. INEVERHEARDOFIT is not a reason for deletion ,regular or speedy. The twinkle wording must be changed to no context to match WP policy. In any case, this was one minute after creation. We need to build in safeguards against people doing that. I can think of at least one that does not require programming--take away twinkle if they repeat after a warning. DGG (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Per that revision, it's about the choice of route in orienteering and related sports (rogaining, adventure racing). The wikilinks alone gave context – compare it with the A1 example "He is a funny man with a red car. He makes people laugh."
It was little more than a DICDEF, notability was very questionable, and if it'd stayed that way it should've been redirected somewhere, but I could easily identify the topic from it. --Amalthea^Talk 23:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

This tag for speedy deletion was wrong. The very first revision has a see also section. Maybe this is not references exactly, but gives an idea that this is a subject that people have something to write about it. A fast Google check for "Route choice" gives thousands of hits. A tag for expanding would be more appropriate. A prod tag could be the last resort, but not a speedy deletion tag. I have seen tenths of bad first edits, but this is not the case at all. -- Magioladitis (talk) 23:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

"Route choice in orienteering and related sports (rogaining, adventure racing) is an important aspect of competition tactics. See also: Navigation Route assignment etc. etc." has about as much context as "John Doe in music and related arts is an important person. See also: Pop Rock, Drummer". Did the first revision identify the subject? No. It said that it was important and gave a few links. The argument is moot though as the article was expanded and is still there. ~ User:Ameliorate! ^{(with the !) (talk)} 00:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree with this, and it certainly could have been tagged. However, I believe a {{context}} tag (and/or other maintenance tags) could have accomplished the same thing. I encourage people to err on the side of caution, as without improvement the CSD will still apply alter and there's always PROD and AfD. Cheers. lifebaka++ 01:45, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The speedy delete tag was applied when the article was 3 minutes old. That is a waste of editorial energy. --Una Smith (talk) 01:43, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The reason for the quick tagging is that there are people who patrol all newly created pages. The pragmatic solution is simply to avoid creating one-sentence stubs. Take the time to write a whole paragraph, and include a source or two, and in practice I think it's very unlikely your new page will be tagged for deletion. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

many of those one sentence stubs are improvable. People with bad connections, who are also likely to be inexperienced at WP, and sometimes not fluent writers as well, tend to write a sentence at a time. To get world-wide coverage, we need to encourage those people not fluent here but with local knowledge and access to local sources, to contribute here as long as they can write understandable English, even if they do it slowly. If you want a new speedy criterion, that articles of a single sentence are subject to speedy deletion for that alone, propose it. DGG (talk) 14:54, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not arguing in favor of the deletions. I'm just pointing out that one practical way to avoid this problem is not to create one-sentence, unreferenced substubs. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Right. I agree that the eds who introduce articles should do a better and more complete job. But as it is, we never actually warn them in a prominent way. should we? If we do, how can we word it so it doesn't creep into being a requirement? Should we perhaps try to publicise the "underconstruction" tag? DGG (talk) 18:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I would start from the other end. Rather than telling a (presumed newbie) editor of a stub what to do, how about helping by (ahem) contributing to the article? Tag it a stub, add a see also, wiktionary link, image, commonscat, or a sentence of relevant content. Do something, anything constructive. Do not scold. In other words, act more like a peer, less like a boss. --Una Smith (talk) 06:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Re DGG: the message when you start a new page (you can edit adsfada to view it) included for a long time a note that said "As you create the article, provide references to reliable published sources. Without references, the article may be deleted.". I tweaked the working a couple days ago to be slightly stronger, but still written as advice rather than as a requirement. There is a balance in advising editors who create new pages without overwhelming them with text (which they will instinctively skip if it is too long). I think the present message is about as long as it could be before people would stop reading it. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

A2 and deleted articles on other wikis?

I came across an article today which was written in German and which has been deleted on de-wiki. Does A2 cover such instances as well, i.e. can we say that an article that has been deleted on another language wiki, cannot be translated and placed on en-wiki? Or should such articles be translated and then put up for deletion? Or should they be considered as G4? Regards SoWhy 11:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

No, since it doesn't "exist on another Wikimedia project". If it doesn't fail any other CSD criteria it should be kept and put up for translation.
I'm unsure if it violates the GFDL though since the original history of the de article is inaccessible – but that's a problem with all translated articles. --Amalthea^Talk 12:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, it did exist there. For example what would happen if some article is deleted here as A2, then at de-wiki? Is the A2-deletion invalid in retrospect and does the article have to be undeleted? SoWhy 12:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah. If an article was speedily deleted and an editor requests undeletion, it should always be restored if the original criterion no longer applies (and no other criterion of course). So in your case, it's no longer a copy of an article of another Wikimedia project, so I think it should be restored. WP:Deletion policy#Deletion review doesn't mention this case yet though. --Amalthea^Talk 12:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so. The idea of the A2 deletion is to avoid unnecessary duplication inside the project. Editors should be directed towards WP:Translation. If the original isn't available for translation, the translation should be declined, whether or nor someone has created copy in between. The deletion at another project does not really invalidate the deletion of what has been deleted here once as mere copy. Moreover restoring it would in most cases incur GFDL problems.--Tikiwont (talk) 12:55, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The different language wikipedias have different standards. deWP accepts some articles which we would not accept readily here, and we have content they would not accept. Similarly (but different) for frWP, the other one I know a little. We naturally do defer a considerable amount to local knowledge on some local topics, especially about things like hoaxes, but we are not bound by them. DGG (talk) 14:47, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Which means one hand that in some cases we will actually decline to translate articles that exist there, but if on the other hand something has been deleted there on a topic that might fit here we should either start from scratch or should ask for some from of transwikiing of the original but not necessarily resurrect or keep our copy. --Tikiwont (talk) 15:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Articles on recent financial market crashes

Draft proposal "Articles purportedly about a recent financial market crash should be speedily deleted unless they include a verified quote that there has actually been a financial crash from an exceptionally reliable source in financial journalism, such as the Wall Street Journal, the Financial Times, the Economist, or the New York Times."

Rational - Twice this year, we've had articles stating that a financial crash is currently happening. Compare the recent renamed version January 2008 stock market volatility with The same day version [2] and notice that the crash stuff is mainly given via templates at the bottom of the article. See also Talk:Black Monday (September 2008). People tend to panic when markets are volatile, and our editors are no different, so this type of article can be expected to reappear on a regular basis. But financial market crashes only appear 4-5 times per century. This would be no problem, except that, when we have an article saying that a financial crash is currently happening we are potentially multiplying that panic, and costing our readers a lot of money, as well as lowering our credibility.

I'm not saying that there should never be articles on financial crashes, only that we get an exceptionally reliable source to say that there is a crash, which in effect will give us a full day to think about it (and not panic). Another reason to use exceptionally reliable sources is that headline writers at lower quality sources use the words "crash" or "Black Monday" without backup in the article, or that the writers will state something like "so-and-so thinks this might be a crash." The exceptionally reliable sources (above) have been through real crashes (and non-crashes) and know the potential problems on panic and credibility, thus do not use the term "crash" lightly.

Why speedly deletion? Going through the regular deletion process would take several days, by which time the non-crash is over, but any reader who put their trust in us has already panicked and lost money, and Wikipedia has lost any credibility on financial articles.

Smallbones (talk) 16:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh no. This is not a good idea. First off, it opens the door for speedy criteria of the sort "does not include sources", which is not and never will be a speedy criterion. Second, twice a year is far, far away from often enough to make a special speedy criterion worth everyone's collective while. Third, we've got disclaimers for a reason. People shouldn't be coming to Wikipedia for advice of any sort, be it financial, medical, legal, or anything else. You should try going to for speedy closes at AfD, or else PROD. Cheers. lifebaka++ 16:25, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Again AfD will be too slow. Remember people are panicking and there will be some controversy. Financial markets are different from most subjects of Wikipedia articles - lots of money is involved, and people panic. Of course people know that they shouldn't trust financial advice from Wikipedia - but in a panic situation, many are likely to forget that. Also please note, this proposal is not so much about deletion, but about a one day delay. How else to realistically stop this type of article? Or is it just not important enough? Smallbones (talk) 16:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't have any moral duty to keep the markets from crashing. Besides, I doubt that "Wikipedia spreads panic on Wall Street" is ever going to be a headline in any serious publication, especially when that gigantic red tag appears at the top of any Wikipedia article going through AfD. VG ☎ 16:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

IMO, those articles should be deleted on sight as WP:OR. Encyclopedia articles can't be written without reliable secondary sources. lk (talk) 17:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

We don't speedy delete articles because they are original research. -Chunky Rice (talk) 17:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't really see the benefit here. If somebody is going to make a poor financial decision based solely on an unsourced Wikipedia article with a big red deletion discussion notice at the top of it, well, you just can't protect people from their own stupidity sometimes. And the idea that such an article could actually precipitate a crash is a notion I find ludicrous. -Chunky Rice (talk) 17:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

As a long time watcher of the financial pages, I would agree with the sentiment behind this proposal. Whenever the markets get volatile, we see a bunch of WP:RECENTISM get dressed up in a full-fledged article. I'm not sure that speedy deletion is always the right course here, but I do think there should be some firmer guideline about notability in these cases. Ronnotel (talk) 17:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

N.B. I have proposed such a guideline. Ronnotel (talk) 17:45, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not a good speedy-deletion criterion but this is an excellent example of why we need to beef up WP:NOTNEWS (or at least begin to enforce it better). Wikipedia should not make the mistake of trying to "scoop" anyone. Encyclopedias have the luxury of being able to wait for perspective. We sacrifice that advantage when we start to think that we're also newspapers. People who desperately want to write these 'breaking news' articles should be politely pointed to our sister project, WikiNews. Rossami (talk) 18:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't see the proposed guideline, but frankly this and a couple of essays aren't enough. How can we keep editors from panic-pushing? The question is not "will wikipedia precipitate a stock market crash?" but "When should an encyclopedia say that there is a crash going on now, which may contribute to a general panic?" I say that Wikipedia should never do this, it's simply unencyclopedic and it may cause (or contribute to) harm to its readers. Do please note that the January 21 "crash" was linked to from the main page for a week (even though the market went up during that time). This type of thing just makes Wikipedia look stupid. So far the only practical suggestion I see here is to put up a big red template on the page saying "this article is up for deletion." I'd like to be able to do something more than that! Smallbones (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Still, see the third point about proposed criteria at the top of this page. Your proposal will not arise frequently, and therefore should not be one of the listed CSD. Feel free to make use of the template {{db}}, however, as I believe a good case could be made for WP:IAR. Cheers. lifebaka++ 19:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The third point - frequently is a relative concept, so please excuse me if I didn't know exactly what was meant. Actually I think that since it might be used a couple of times per year rather than everyday would make the application of this much easier. Rule 3 seems to be written more for administrator convenience, than for solving a real problem. I'd like to solve a real problem.

I still don't understand the suggestion. I'm supposed to put up the {{db}} template, fill in the reason with WP:IAR and presumably text similar to what I've put on this page, and then you will speedily remove the article? I'm guessing it wouldn't work that way. Smallbones (talk) 23:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The point is written because speedy deletion is designed only to work in incredibly obvious and uncontroversial places, and is supposed to take loads off of [{WP:PROD|PROD]] and AFD, where the articles would also be deleted. If it's not going to take a substantial load off of either of those processes, there's no need not to use them. Still, we've got WP:IAR for a reason, and we haven't deleted {{db}} for a reason. Creating a specific disclaimer to put at the top of the article/talk page isn't a bad idea either. I'd suggest heading elsewhere to see if those are acceptable, to get a wider audience. Cheers. lifebaka++ 23:05, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Write a {{do not panic; markets will rebound}} template if that makes you happy. VG ☎ 19:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't appreciate the attempt at humor. As far as "Wikipedia doesn't have any moral duty" from above, I think you're blowing this way up - instead of "moral duty" I'd rather talk about "common decency" or maybe just a simple rule like "an encyclopedia should attempt to tell the truth."

Please consider the following situation: You work with an organization that regularly misleads its customers in a way that may cost its customers money, without in any way benefiting the organization. Wouldn't you think it best for both the customers and the organization, that you make an attempt to correct this situation? That's all I'm trying to do here. If anybody has a positive suggestion, please let me know. Smallbones (talk) 23:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Smallbones, but I can see that the Speedy Deletion criteria, in order to function on a project wide basis, need to be kept manageable, general and few. I'd also be extremely reluctant to beef up NOTNEWS type restrictions in the speedy deletion criteria, because writing high-quality encyclopedia articles based off current events is something that Wikipedia does better than anyone in the world. Many editors, unfortunately, don't understand the difference between encyclopedia articles based off current events and news articles. In the specific case of sudden stock market volatility, I'd think a better approach would be a smart, and simple, guideline. 1) Wikipedia generally has articles on a variety of economic trends. When somebody starts Black Sunday (Nikkei) Dollar Crash or something, it would be better to swiftly redirect this to somewhere like U.S. National Debt (or whatever the cause). The problem with speedy deletion is that people are going to add the information somewhere. This week's Dow dive showed up in several different articles. And CSD doesn't get at the real problem, whereas a guideline could. So, 2) the guideline should spell out not to use phrases like crash or panic anywhere without the sort of sourcing Smallbones outlined. It could also provide better guidance on dealing with market volatility in general. I'd think if we write this guideline we could get consensus for it, and then bring it to the attention of enough editors who are familiar with markets. I do think we can address the problem without adding a CSD criteria. Not sure the next step here. --JayHenry (talk) 02:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Image deletion document

I'm attempting to create a document providing an overview of the image deletion process to expand on Wikipedia:Image_use_policy#Deleting_images (which needs to be revised anyway, as it is no longer current on the handling of copyright issues). Since a good many of the avenues of deleting images are speedy ones, I figure folks here might have valuable feedback on the need and/or form of such a document. I've just placed a notice at village pump. The conversation started here. Current version of the proposed document can be found at User:Moonriddengirl/SandboxA. I'm not in the habit of launching such discussions, so I really have no idea where conversation is best conducted. :) Since I have myself scrambled to figure out where and how to handle things (and have seen even other admins list items at WP:IFD that should be at WP:NFR), I think the document would be a good thing. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 10:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

New Speedy criteria proposal

• An article may be speedily deleted if it only contains information that is already contained in an existing article, there is no content to merge, and the title would make an implausible redirect.

The wording of that sucks, but the idea is, well, pages like this. It's an exact copy/paste of another article (Huzzah), right down to the reference numbers. The other type of pages I've seen that fit this mold are pages where someone has started an article without knowing there is an existing article, and the name happens to be an implausible redirect...in the past, I've actually been able to get some of those deleted under R3 criteria, but it doesn't seem right.

Again, the wording of my proposal sucks, but the concept is, quite simply, that if the info is already on Wikipedia, it should be able to be speedily deleted because no reasonable person should have an objection to it...seeing how the info will still be on Wikipedia. Comments? --UsaSatsui (talk) 16:37, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The articles like the one you pointed to as an example fall squarely into the category of vandalism (G3, misinformation). A complete copy-paste would fall under G6, since there is no obvious need to keep it, and it probably violates the GFDL. Beyond those, I don't really think there is a need for a broader class of speedies. An article that is only a partial copy paste, but not obvious vandalism, could just be the start of a spin-off (see WP:SUMMARY). Someguy1221 (talk) 17:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If someone took the time to create a duplicative article at a different title, my first thought is that it's probably a plausible redirect candidate - maybe just following a title logic that's not immediately obvious to me but that might be very obvious to someone else. Speedy-deleting those good-faith contributions will will result in one of two outcomes. Either the newcomer will see that their new page was deleted and feel bitten or they will incorrectly think that our database is unstable and "ate" their contribution - leading them to repost it, have it speedy-deleted again and the situation escalates from there. A redirect solves that problem neatly by pointing the new contributor to the right page where their contributions will be appreciated.
If the duplicate title is blatantly inappropriate or if the page truly is an exact duplicate and it's apparent that the user must have copied the text from an existing Wikipedia, then you have a probable case of vandalism on your hands. (Note, however, that merely being a copy-paste may not be proof of bad-faith. A new editor might have copy-pasted the text from one of the many Wikipedia clones without recognizing that we were the original source of the text.) The vandalism charge can often be verified by investigating the creator's contribution history. If it's substantiated as vandalism, that's already speedy-deletable without creating a new CSD criterion.
I think that once you weed out the vandalism cases, there's not enough need for a new CSD criterion. Rossami (talk) 17:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Template for declined G4s

I so commonly have to tell new newpages patrollers that G4 doesn't apply to article only previously speedily deleted that I created a template to save time. I imagine others have similar experiences so please see {{notg4}}.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC)