Talk:Alternative metal

Alternative metal survived vfd. See: talk:Alternative metal/Delete -- Wile E. Heresiarch 06:09, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Circus metal and Avant garde metal appear to be two very different genres yet in Paragraph four they are mentioned as interchangeable terms. Jeffy 16:50, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So, I'm guessing from the list of bands, alternative metal is nu-metal -- Dysfunktion 10:17, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why do I get the feeling that this was written by a Mike Patton fanboy? Please also note that Jane's Addiction began gaining public/critical notice several years before the grunge wave did.

Is this even a real genre?

• No, this is most definetly not a real genre of metal. I have never seen this genre mentioned before in any respectable metal publication or website. This does not seem to be written by a Mike Patton fanboy so much as it was written by a resentful nu-metal fan who sought another way to salvage the loss of credibility of their favorite bands as legitimate metal bands, such as Slipknot, on the Slipknot and nu-metal pages, and concocted this phony genre out of thin air as a means of keeping their favored bands within the much-coveted sphere of metal music, who THEN drew upon Patton's work to reinforce this genre. If anything, Mike Patton's music is either a) not metal at all in some cases, b) avant-garde metal, or b) each project is different, with Fantomas being black metal, his Dillinger work being hardcore, etc. In any case, this entire article's wording smacks undeniably of the Meaningless statement fallacy, from the Wikipedia article I now quote an example:

A statement in argumentation may be considered meaningless because it draws a distinction without a 
difference, that is, asserts that two categories are disjoint without proposing a way to distinguish 
among them. For instance, the claim, "Pornography is different from erotica, but not in any particular 
way I can explain," may be considered to draw a distinction that makes no difference.

In light of that and the more than suspicious fact that this genre has never appeared anywhere else in any credible metal publication or the metal community at all, this article is a definite candidate for deletion.

It is a valid term, one that critics and music publications frequently use to describe these bands under a loose approach. Allmusic.com, for instance, uses "Alternative metal" as a genre. The reason it doesn't appear often in metal terminology is because it's used more to describe bands from the perspective of an alternative rock fanbase, rather than a metal one. WesleyDodds 04:22, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Then it should be regarded as an offshoot of alternative music and not of metal, but by all appearances, the approach taken here seems to have been one of treating this as a subgenre of metal when it isn't.

Deletion?

I personally have never seen or heard of this 'subgenre' of metal ever before, in any publication, or from any person. I've been frequenting metal forums all across the internet for some time now and this article really doesn't seem to be a real term... Nevermind accurate. It may have been used in some publications by fans of alternative rock, but again, I've never seen it... And a genre of music created by fans of a different genre? This article definitely seems to be an attempt to change the definition of nu-metal to a metal subgenre without using the proper article... Possibly because they already tried? The best this page does to define the subgenre it's claiming to talk about is:

'As with most rock music genres, alternative metal has proved somewhat difficult to define. Some fans and musicians have firm ideas of genre and sub-genre, while others reject such notions as useless or limiting. Influence from many other genres is common in alternative metal.

The term is very loosely defined, but is usually used to describe artists playing a style of metal which is considered either unique or difficult to define.'

There are several problems with this definition, in my mind. First of all, the genre is called 'alternative metal', yet the author describes it as a rock music genre. I understand that metal came from rock music, but it has progressed in a very different direction and I don't see how 'alternative metal' can be a subgenre of rock (even though, with the bands listed, it is more accurate) while being called alternative metal. Would it not just be alternative rock?

Secondly, how on earth does that statement define a genre? All it says is it can't be defined. It seems that almost anything can be alternative metal, if you wanted. All it has to be is unique or difficult to define. Opeth has both melodic death and progressive metal elements... Does that make them alternative metal too? What about Despised Icon? They draw from death metal and hardcore/metalcore. Me hitting a washtub and screaming would be considered unique and difficult to define too. Does that make them all alternative metal now? A *lot* of bands in metal that have nothing in common with each other could easily be lumped together under these vague guidelines. This article, to me, seems to be using circular reasoning, using the bands to define the genre and then taking that genre and using it to define the bands, never really getting anywhere. I think because of this, this article is a serious candidate for deletion. If not deletion, this article needs to actually *define* a real subgenre of music (And decide which genre of music it belongs to. The author seems to want to claim it is a subgenre of metal, while calling it a subgenre of rock). Right now, it's wasted space no matter how you look at it. 139.142.23.159

"First of all, the genre is called 'alternative metal', yet the author describes it as a rock music genre. I understand that metal came from rock music, but it has progressed in a very different direction and I don't see how 'alternative metal' can be a subgenre of rock (even though, with the bands listed, it is more accurate) while being called alternative metal. Would it not just be alternative rock?"

As you stated, heavy metal came from rock music. In fact, it is still considered rock music. Thus alternative metal would be a sub-style of a style, much like Oi! or crust would be considered subsets of punk rock.

What you are missing is that it is a fusion genre, and is listed accordingly in both the metal and alternative rock templates. It's not just a random group of metal bands that are left-of center; these bands share in common a background in punk or alternative rock scenes. For example, White Zombie used to be noise rock in the vein of Sonic Youth, Helmet's approach was influenced by Page Hamilton's time in Band of Susans and and draws a link between post-hardcore and nu-metal, Jane's Addiction was part of the same alternative scene as RHCP and Faith No More and mixed several genres (including goth, folk, psychedelia, and others besides metal), Alice in Chains and Soundgarden were grunge bands who played up their metal influences, RATM draws as much influence form hardcore punk and Gang of Four as they do from Zeppelin-ish heavy metal, and so on. I agree this article can be written better; equal time sould be given to the metal and alternative sides of the form. But please, don't simply disregard it because it doesn't conform to a viewpoint of metal genres. WesleyDodds 09:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Merging

There is strong argument for this argument to be deleted due to Neoglism, POV, Meaningless statement and for the fact it is basically a poor rendition of things already said in the Nu Metal article. If this article is to be kept, then it should be directly merged into the Nu Metal article with Rap Metal, as this page is neithe informative, encyclopedic, or NPOV. If by the end of the week this article is still here, i will start proposed merging of metal articles that split hair myself, for lack of a user with better english skills doing it. Leyasu 17:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I fail to see...

I fail to see how there can be such a thing as "alternative metal" when the whole idea of metal is that it is alternative, whatever sub-genre is comes from. Clearly this false sub-genre either needs deletion or mergence with Nu-Metal.

As a metalhead, I am ashamed to be associated with nu metallers today. They are clueless and idiotic and believing that band such as Slipknot are original when GWAR for instance did it all so long before Slipknot. I'm sure others will agree that the future of metal is doomed if cretins such as todays "nu-metallers" are to be handed the reings.

Because it refers to the genre of alternative rock? WesleyDodds 01:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I feel that...

Alternative metal should not be merged with Nu metal. There quite so many diffrences with these two genres. It would quite a long article and it would be very confusing for anyone to read.

--The Thief 06:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Then someone needs to make clear the differences better, because the majority of people are confused as hell. Leyasu 09:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think they should be merged either. Nu-metal can be considered a descendant or sub-style of alternative metal. Both terms are used quite frequently, and apart from the late 90's they refer to completely different approaches. By the way, I'm still editing both pages. I'm just a little held up because for some reason I can't cut or paste text in any sort of edit window (including Wikipedia) WesleyDodds 00:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

They are still overlapping, and still repeating each other. Your edits are making no difference other than to make them overlap, and repeat each other more. Yes, both terms are used. Alternative Metal is the name used by Nu Metal fans, who dislike the term Nu Metal due to the negativity associated with it. I will wait to see what AJ does with the articles, and then when they are done, if they still overlap drastically, and repeat each other, i shall merge them per what Wikipedia policys say. Leyasu 06:50, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

"Alternative Metal is the name used by Nu Metal fans, who dislike the term Nu Metal due to the negativity associated with it."

Now that is a gross generalization and is not a valid argument. And while I respect and encourage your right to disagree, it would be more efficient if you pointed out where the articles overlap and if possible, fix them or calrify points. Additionally, your proposal for a merge ignores the fact that while alternative metal and nu metal overlap and are related, they are not synonymous. For example, a hip-hop influence is not present in all nu metal bands, and much less in alternative metal bands, among other musical traits, so merging them together not only ignore athe distinctions between them, but it would also make it difficult for anyone wanting to read about one or the other seperately. We have articles for Black Metal and Nazi Black Metal, Indie and Alternative, Protopunk and punk rock, jangle pop and Paisley Underground, Grunge and post-grunge, and many other minute divisions of related genres. That does not mean they belong on the same page. And I have still yet to see anyone else agree to a merge. WesleyDodds 01:45, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

It is a gross generelization, but one most all of the metal community of the world will repeat after me. No, not all Nu Metal has Alternative Rock influence, not all Nu Metal has Hip Hop influence. But then again, not all Death Metal has Thrash Metal influence. And not all Death Metal has Black Metal influence.

Ill point out the overlaps better when youve edited further, as im curious to see if your end product is something that overlaps, or something that doesnt. Leyasu 02:36, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

they are pretty similiar... Jwlx Seriously... there's so many bands... genre categorizations are stupid enough as they are and you certainly can't capture them all under the single "Nu Metal" heading. I don't see why overlapping is a problem. Of course there are gonna be similarities between sub-genres. Just relax and go refine articles if it's putting your panties in a twist. Phorque 13:29, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Youve just repeated what Progressive Metal is. As Dream Theater and Symphony X are both Progressive Metal bands.

Secondly, if its a genre, give me a musical definition of it, rather than random traits and bands copied from other articles about other genres. As it stands, this genre is a fusion between Alternative Rock, and Metal. Thats all well and good, except most all the bands that fit here, are Nu Metal bands. Almost all the description given here, has been of Nu Metal bands.

I suggest to Aj (WesleyDodds), that he gets cracking with the editing of the articles. Otherwise, i will start a merge at the end of the week. Leyasu 02:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought alternative meant a mix of alternative and metal, which basically is progressive metal, because alternative such as Pixies, Mars Volta, Smashing Pumpkins, is defined by the difference between it and normal rock/pop, such as time changes, wide dynamics so it has an "alternative" song structure, but Nu Metal is in no way alternative it should just be Nu metal becuase calling it alternative metal is an insult to the alternative genre Nu metal is not about making great original music as all music should be, but more about pleasing crowds and making money, alternative is different not so they sell records, but just being creative in their approach to music making, beacause music is an art and all art should stem from cretivity and express what message you are trying to portray in an alternative manner, but Nu metal is not art it is just money making. The Alternative Metal Genre should not exisit because Nu metal is not alternative. Nu metal is for all those twelve year olds who want to think they like real metal.

Progressive Metal is Progressive Metal. You dont redefine names based on bands you do and do not like. Also, you have just been etremely Neoglistic. Alternative Metal is basically the forepart of Nu Metal, before its name changed and before the new batch of bands that got high critical acclaim. I also suggest you read the article on what Nu Metal is, and what Alternative Rock is. Not all Nu Metal bands are out to make money, many Nu Metal bands have made no money, and im sure you wouldnt know any of them. Leyasu 03:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Depends what you consider nu metal bands. Please make a list. WesleyDodds 04:32, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought there already was one?

On the List of Nu metal musical groups, only Korn and Kittie overlap (and I didn't even add Kittie to the Alternative metal list; someone else did). All others that overlap are filed under Instigators/Progenators (which means they aren't nu metal artists). WesleyDodds 04:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much all of them on the list are correct. However, the 'insigators' were simply some of the first Nu Metal bands. Ive listed them below:

• Deftones
• Fear Factory
• Godsmack
• Korn
• Rage Against the Machine
• System of a Down

They are all Nu Metal bands. If there is a Alternative Metal genre, it needs defining as exactly what it is. Gothic metal's and symphonic metal's 'Sound, Constructs and Lyrics' sections make for good templates for writing down what a genre consists of.

I dont want to delete this article if it can be kept, as a lot of editers have put good work into this. But if its essentially Nu Metal, it needs to be merged. If needs be, it can be mentioned on the Nu Metal article in the same way Gothic-Doom is mentioned in the gothic metal article. Leyasu 05:29, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Rage Against the Machine aren't considered a nu metal band. WesleyDodds 05:49, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The only place ive heard them not cited as a Nu Metal band is Wikipedia, except for some minority groups of fans claiming them to be Industrial Metal, Industrial Rock, Industrial, (insert industrial variant here). Leyasu 06:24, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

. . . People call RATM "industrial"? WesleyDodds 11:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

In the cases ive heard that, it has almost always been young teenagers. Leyasu 15:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

If you think that RATM and SOAD are nu metal bands, then you haven't been listening. I really can't see any meaningful similarity between them and, say, Linkin Park (or to each other for that matter). --Jemiller226 07:22, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Go and read the Nu Metal article. Then make such hasty comments. Leyasu 08:33, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Rage are in no way Industrial, they don't use synth or drum machine at all - that's insane. But no, RATM and SOAD are not nu-metal. Pretty much, that's summed up by their proper use of solos, which don't feature in nu-metal almost as a rule. But there are other elements - political activism, considerable talent, absence of turntables, using real metal riffs, and having a hardcore/metalcore influence most nu-metal bands would shy away from. RATM are funk-metal: They fit the descriptor perfectly, and they predate nu-metal by years (Nu-metal really started with Korn, who started after RATM were already popular, and it didn't get popular until the mid-late 90s, whereas RATM were big even during the Gringe era). SOAD are Avant-garde metal.

Anyway, to define "Alternative Metal": It's a blanket term. It includes any metal with a pronounced "alternative" (eg: not traditionally associated with metal) influence: Industrial metal, Funk metal, Nu-metal, etc, and also includes the Avant-garde metal and prog bands, like Dream Theater, Opeth, Tool and the like. As was said in the Nu-metal talk page:

* One usage of the term refers to bands within the Nu Metal genre, that forsake large quantities of Hip Hop influence and instead draw influence from Metal Genres and Alternative Rock Genres. A similar name to define between Nu Metal bands that use heavy hip hop influence is 'Rap Metal'. * The second usage of the term is relative to metal bands that do unorthodox things in their music, normally not akin to metal genres. These bands are also known as Avantgarde metal bands.

I know what he means with the first usage, anyway. I hear "hard nu-metal" bands described as "alternative metal" all the time. Ünloco are called "alt-metal" by their label, I believe.

What's with these bands being "All nu metal"?

• Fear Factory - Industrial metal.
• Rage Against the Machine - Funk metal.
• System of a Down - Avantgarde metal.

I don't think this should be merged.

I've never heard anyone refer to this genre, but I get the point and I think it should stay seperate, I might take out the metal genre box and put the alternative one in it's place. Alot of these bands probably had alot of influence on nu-metal to be sure, but it's not the same. maxcap 00:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and swapped those genre boxes maxcap 01:01, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I changed them back, because it straddles the line between metal and alternative; therefore there's the metal box at the top and the alternative footer at the bottom of the page to cover both bases. However, if someone is willing to edit the article so that both boxes can fit without warping the page formatting, go right ahead. WesleyDodds 01:21, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. This is a tough genre to pin down, I think it almost only exists in hindsight as a way to categorize oddities like Faith No More, Jane's Addiction, Fishbone etc.. maxcap 02:00, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

After reading Ian Christe's book, the division bewteen alternative metal and nu metal appears to be thus: Alternative metal mainly refers to more eclectic metal bands during the reign of alternative rock, while nu metal is a more uniform movement largely coming out of the decline of alternative rock. That distinction is strong enough to argue against a merge. WesleyDodds 02:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree. maxcap 02:57, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Given the number of people who have responded to the subject now, I think we should remove the merger tags on both articles. However, if there are any more objections against Alternative metal and Nu metal being separate articles, let's have them out. WesleyDodds 12:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree too - keep them separate. I would rather see an honest approach to Nu Metal and to Alt. Metal (it really is commercialised, how often do you hear Tool, Primus or Mr Bungle on mainstream radio? Less than Linkin Park? Thought so.), I'd also like to see Rapcore redirect to Rap Metal (not the other way round, since this currently propagates the ridiculous music press' tendency to invent genre tags like post-funk-grind-melt-deathcore (my own example...) as they desperately try to make new (faceless?) bands sound fresh. If the Definition part of Nu metal was reworked into an ORIGINS section, preceded/followed by a clear definition statement that Nu Metal bands fill the void between the mostly unique-sounding Alt. Metal bands with a kind of unified, perhaps even formulaic approach to angsty rock, that might work.

This way people who love RATM, Fear Factory, SOAD, Tool, Helmet, and the other great-and-good pioneers on the Alt. Metal page won't get so offended all the time, and fans of those-who-came-later like Linkin Park and American Head Charge might actually be able to see that their idols do actually sound somewhere between some of these pioneers, and really aren't carrying any truly unique sound of their own.

The whole problem here and on Nu Metal is that people are all spouting POV when they feel like their faves are being slated. This is an encyclopedia, not a playground. I really welcome the recent words of wisdom on this page and hope that separate pages with slightly adjusted content can finally settle down and live in harmony.

If anyone wants me to do the edits and take the flak for it I'll give it a shot one day when I have time... Skewer 14:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

This is just a thought maybe to expand upon, especially regarding WesleyDodds reference to Ian Christe's book, to help pin down a timeline for this genre. I haven't read the book but it seems to me that most of the time when people, especially people in music press refer to the popularity of alternative rock in the 90's, they are more or less refering to grunge's popularity, which has a more defined sort of rise/decline. I think that alternative metal probably exists parallel to grunge (and crosses over a bit) for the sake of pinning down a timeline. maxcap 19:16, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

...but if it does merge...

...I would maintain that Alternative Metal (with its list of key bands) is a better page to retain, with nu- and rap- metal redirecting here. Perhaps then a decent chronology could be constructed which details a kind of family tree showing relationships such as

• from Ministry to Static-X
• from RATM to SOAD
• from RATM to Limp Bizkit
• from Biohazard to American Head Charge (or whoever, Biohazard's debut had the "no instruments used" thing but AHC play their own, I know...)

You get the idea, just use the power of a timeline to say "look people, these really did come first, there are these common threads we can follow, and these recent sleevenotes really do credit the earlier stuff, so why do you insist that bands from 1998 'invented the whole sound' or whatever the argument is today?"

Then we might have one decent article that reads like an essay on the evolution of non-thrash, non-death, non-gothic rock/metal from 1986 to 2006. Skewer 14:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

If we did merge, that's the type of resolution I would back. However, I have two main objections that incline me to vote to keep them separate pages: space and sources. Combining them into one article might make it too large and we'd have to break it up into smaller pieces anyway. And as it stands the availability of sources does not create a clear history between the two. Creating lines of evolution would involve too much independent analysis on our part that might skirt dangerously towards POV. WesleyDodds 03:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah, curses to your flawless logic! :) I see the POV potential there, unless we could use just sleevenotes as a resource, that might work, but that's a major project in itself. How about a situation where we use an Alternative Metal/Evolution subpage, to house this kind of section - i.e.

• Define Alt Metal
• Explain Nu Metal name a bit
• Briefly point out timeline issues (Helmet started in 80s, Slipknot started yesterday-ish...)
• Link to subpage "To demonstrate the relationship between Alternative Metal and the Nu Metal that is more often played and promoted in the mainstream media"
• then carry on as usual with the good stuff :)

I still think it's infinitely more applicable and convenient to just keep them separate articles. Because, when it comes down to it, the terms are meant largely to refer to two different eras. The connections between the two just need to be made in each article (which I've tried to do, but they can always be worked on).

And I would assume liner notes would be citable sources. I know the liner notes for the Helmet best-of has a lot of usable info in it, I just haven't bothered to open my CD recently. WesleyDodds 09:56, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Wesley, Names for referring to two different era's by the bands fans doesnt mean they are two different genres. With that statement you just made, you may as well of said 'This is a Neoglism article with the history of Nu Metal'. Leyasu 17:14, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

That's assuming both articles are solely about genre. WesleyDodds 19:21, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

At which point if one repeats the other in detail, they need to be merged due to Wikipedia policy. Leyasu 20:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I still don't see how the articles are repeating the same things. Please give clear examples from the text. WesleyDodds 20:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)