Talk:The Handmaid's Tale

Satire and Science Fiction

I'm deeply unconvincted that the book is a satire, and not sue that it is science fiction. Any EngLit people wish to comment / edit? --Tagishsimon (talk)

From my copy of Webster:

satire: 1) A literary work in which human vice or folly is attacked through irony, derision, or wit. 2) The branch of literature constituting such works. 3) Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity.

Perhaps it isn't a textbook example of satire, but I think the word loosely fits. As far as it being science fiction I think a lot of that is in comparison to Atwood's other books, many of which are blatant sci-fi. I think Atwood's description of the US and Christianity in and of themselves within this book are a type of satire, whether or not they're comical in nature. --mixvio

I've only just started reading the book, but in general science fiction is a very broad genre and The Handmaid's Tale cound be said to fall within its blurry boundaries on account of being a sort of alternate history type story. It might be more appropriate to say "speculative fiction" (which encompasses science fiction, fantasy, etc.), but Margaret Atwood's name is pretty much the only thing that's keeping it out of the fantasy/science fiction section of your local bookstore. --nekoewen

I found it in the science fiction section of both my local Barns & Noble and my kitchy neighborhood bookstore. But then again I live in NYC. --mixvio

i think that speculative dystopic stories, for better or worse, tend to be lumped with sci-fi. Streamless 14:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Speculative novels like this are at the very heart of science fiction ("sci-fi" is often considered a pejorative) literature, from Brave New World to 1984 to Philip Roth's The Plot Against America. The fact that they are often not treated as science fiction is a whole 'nother rant entirely. It's like putting Octavia Butler in the respectable, not-science-fiction section so you can talk about the things she discusses in her science fiction novels without getting any sci-fi cooties on you.--Orange Mike 16:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)--129.89.253.116 16:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The Handmaid's Tale won an award for best SF novel 1987 raptor 13:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

To the end of the Plot:

"In this respect The Handmaid's Tale is similar to Egalia's Daughters by Gerd Brantenberg, Dune by Frank Herbert or The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien."

Absolutely shit! Why respect? And waht have these books to do with this novel? There shouldn´t be build a line to the masterworks "dune" and "LOTR" just because there are appendices at the end of the book!

unencyclopedic comment moved to talk:

=== Analysis ===

Perhaps it's ironic that after the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attack civil liberties in the US were severely restricted without people really noticing or caring. The Handmaid's Tale also described the great restriction placed on the people by the US government, who use attacks allegedly committed by 'Islamic fanatics' as an excuse. In the book, the lax attidude of the people towards losing their liberties is what paves the way for a religious revolution; as long as changes don't effect them on the short term, they won't care about the long term.

- Montréalais 02:49 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

If you want to include the Analysis paragraph in this article, please find some way to do so that's NPOV. Attacking the US government doesn't do that. -- Zoe

Yes, Zoe, I believe that's why I moved the thing to Talk. - Montrealais

Yes, Montrealais, but the paragraph was moved back to the article and I reverted it. -- Zoe

I fail to see how the US government is being attacked in the paragraph, but if you disagree with the contents of the paragraph, either change it till you no longer disagree, or put in a different opionion. Just moving the paragraph around does not accomplish anything.

I await your edits, but will leave the removal as is, for now. branko

It has nothing to do with whether "the US government is being attacked" in the paragraph. That's not the point. The point is that it is an opinion unqualified by any attribution. That's not NPOV- Montréalais 15:06 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I agree with Montréalais: that bit about 9/11 is pointless and has no place here.

I myself wrote a w/u for Everything2 a while ago in which I made the same comparison - but that was E2, this is Wiki. The comparison that SHOULD be pointed out in this article is to the Iranian revolution and the rise of the "moral majority" under Regan, as those things actually influenced the book. -- stewacide 15:18 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure about this but shouldn't the fact that it was turned into a film and an opera come before the plot details and spoiler warning? Saul Taylor

Couldn't the ending also be seen as a kind of intellectual joke by Atwood? Suddenly she wrenches the narrative away from the timeframe of the rest of the book as if to say "ha ha, I'm not going to tell you how it ends because it's my book and I don't want to. Suckers!". That's how I read it, anyway. I rather like that anticlimax, though I know a lot of people simply choose to ignore the epilogue altogether. Bonalaw 13:07, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think Atwood was pointing to the fact that all histories and narratives are mediated - by time, by your own values, by emotion, and lastly by historians who arrange your words. An An 21:41, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

POV

Is it too POV to say the character of Serena Joy was loosely based on Tammy Faye Bakker? Other websites have at least remarked on the resemblance...and I say it's quite blatant. Mike H 06:20, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

-- No, I think this was clearly Atwood's intention.

Iranian revolution

It is vital that some mention of this be made. This novel was definitely Atwood's attempt to say "it could happen here, too" about the Iranian revolution.

Well, unsigned person, please note this somewhere! I think its an excellent point to draw out. An An 22:56, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Subjection/Subjugation

From www.m-w.com

Subjection Main Entry: 3sub·ject Pronunciation: s&b-'jekt, 's&b-"jekt Function: transitive verb 1 a : to bring under control or dominion : SUBJUGATE b : to make (as oneself) amenable to the discipline and control of a superior 2 : to make liable : PREDISPOSE 3 : to cause or force to undergo or endure (something unpleasant, inconvenient, or trying) <was subjected to constant verbal abuse> - sub·jec·tion /s&b-'jek-sh&n/ noun

Subjugation Main Entry: sub·ju·gate Pronunciation: 's&b-ji-"gAt Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): -gat·ed; -gat·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Latin subjugatus, past participle of subjugare, from sub- + jugum yoke -- more at YOKE 1 : to bring under control and governance as a subject : CONQUER 2 : to make submissive : SUBDUE - sub·ju·ga·tion /"s&b-ji-'gA-sh&n/ noun - sub·ju·ga·tor /'s&b-ji-"gA-t&r/ noun

They're similar words, but I thibk subjection (3) is what Offred is undergoing. She is consicous, and she is made to endure. She never internally submits to the system.An An 23:22, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I was one of the people who edited Subjection to Subjugation. I now favour Subjection for the reasons listed above.Fifelfoo 01:20, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That's lovely then. Did you fix it, or shall I? An An 05:25, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Are the "Marthas" of African descent?

Someone added the statement that they were, and someone else reverted it right back out. I don't have any hard-and-fast evidence to offer one way or the other, but the statement that they *ARE* of African descent always matched my impression. Does anyone know for sure? Or is it time to read the book gain? (Obviously, the answer may turn out to be "Some, in fact, an over-represntation are, but some aren't."

Atlant 14:26, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

When we did analysis in our English class, we concluded that Cora and Rita, at least, were black, but other Marthas were not explicitly black. I think it wouldn't be wrong to state that there is much evidence to conclude that Cora and Rita were black women. Mike H 07:16, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)

The "Children of Ham" (negroes) were all "resettled". This is alluded to in chapter 14 (part 4), the moments before the ceremony when the household watch TV waiting for the Commander. Its page 93 in 1995 Virago Press edition. There are no statements in the book to the effect that the Marthas are negroes, and if there are, I would like to see them reproduced here. The idea that it "fits" the marthas that they are black may be more easily attributed to points of view which equate black skin with domestic slavery (i.e. mainstream American ideology, to name but one). An An 09:05, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It was never explicitly stated in the text that Cora and Rita were black, but their speech patterns in the novel were not on par with the other white characters. I guess that could be interpreted a number of ways (common white?) but that was the conclusion we drew. Mike H 10:55, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

There were also examples of other kinds of people who were believed to be completely resettled but weren't. I can think of religious minorities who were originally supposed to be sent away but chose to live under the new laws, only to be found practicing their religion in private (say, the Jews, who had the option of taking a boat back to Israel, unlike the other minorities). Mike H 10:58, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

On reading the first chapters, the Martha's immediatley struck me as African American women. However, I think that has to do more with my perception of the culture seen in the USA. I also read it to be in the USA, without knowing anything about the book at all. Personally, I think this is a cultural perception rather than something that is seen explicitly in the novel.00:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

If you're saying that your reading of it as being set in the former US is a "cultural projection", then, no, that's not the case. The story is unambiguously set in the Cambridge/Boston area and explicit references are made to many of the existing geographic/commercial features that exist today. But if you're speaking of the Marthas being A-A as a cultural projection, then you may be right. I guess I'll just have to read the book again. :-) Or we could wait and see how Bushworld actually evolves. :-(

Atlant 12:48, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps the speech patterns are working class, or servile class? Speech doesn't mean skin colour, and it is not enough to say that the speech is low-class so these women are black. Cora and Rita are the only Marthas that we hear speak at all - so there can be no determination of whether their speech is typical of their caste.

As for the "resettlement" attempts - Atwood makes it clear that these may be (and probably are) falsified for propaganda purposes. Whether negroes were murdered (as the epilogue asserts that jews were) or actually resettled is not in contention. Marthas are not possitively identified as negroes by Atwood, and any assertion that they are needs to be substantiated. An An 12:11, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Rita's brown arms maybe be a result of work, exposure to the heat of the ovens or the sun. It may be a symbol of the effects of work on her body. Cora says to Rita that she could have been selected as a handmaid, given different circumstances (ch 2). If Cora were negro, this would be incompatible to a society sufficiently fixated on racial purity to 'resettle' negroes and jews. On a broader note, why is it necessary to state that "all marthas are black", when there is at best conflicting evidence to this effect? An An 11:12, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

FWIW, In the movie, they were both white. Carolynparrishfan 19:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

biblical refrences

hello all as an access student i am witing an essay on the campative qualities of the handmaids tale and genesis chapter 1-4 including adam and eve does anyone have any views on the subject bex

Unwomen

I was puzzled by the part of the article that mentions male unwomen. Could someone point out to me where in the book this is mentioned? I wasn't aware of it even being implied. 84.69.25.238 12:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Offred mentions that anyone sent to the Colonies is an "Unwoman" and that being forced to wear long grey dresses is supposed to demoralize them. (Alphaboi867 02:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC))

Should "widows" be removed from the Unwoman category as the text does not say they are banished and Offred sees one in chapter 5? raptor 10:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Feminist social critique

I am quite shocked that in the section of the article that describes the social critique in the book, critique of the oppression of women in modern society isn't mentioned. This book is first and foremore a feminist book. I find that it maps out very accurately society's perceptions about women, their gender roles and acceptable (as well as unacceptable) behaviour.

Anyone up for adding this aspect to the article?

Silentium 12:58, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like you are ;-) ! Be bold!

Atlant 16:39, 8 June 2006 (UTC)