Talk:Laws of Form

Philip Meguire, 22.10.05: I am now the author of most of this entry, while being none of mathemacian, logician, or philosopher. I respect the Laws of Form, seeing them as a major simplification of the 2 element Boolean algebra (2) and of the truth functors of elementary logic. The formalism should be extendable to arbitrary finite Boolean algebras and to first order logic. In any event, the primary algebra could greatly simplify the teaching of logic to nonspecialists, such as philosophy majors, electrical engineers, and computer scientists.

About Spencer-Brown's bolder claims, I reject some (e.g., his belief that LoF eliminates any need for type or set theory) and am thoroughly agnostic about others (e.g., imaginary truth values could revolutionize mathematics and electrical engineering).

Philip, I offer my very sincere congratulations on your mathematically rigorous treatment of Spencer-Brown's work. You've done a great piece of work yourself -- similarly respectful of LoF, the calibre of this article had previously been something that I could not even reference. Please stay flexible and with us as this continues to evolve. The article may need a separate section to discuss the philosophical and even theological implications of LoF, but there are critical points in your very well done discussion that provide segue and foundations for this future section. Again...very nicely done. --AustinKnight 19:59, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Philip Meguire, October 31. I have taken the liberty of editing your additions. I teach university and find it very natural to edit other people's writing.

Well done, again. I didn't like the interruption of flow myself, and was clearly too focused on the segue opportunity presented by the "first distinction" dialogue. I've reedited to somewhat 'sandwich' the ineffable allusions via both a re-assertion of the linkage with the "first distinction" and the LoF Notes section for Chapter 12. --AustinKnight 14:27, 31 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Philip Meguire. I've expanded your discussion of Confucianism by including my favorite quote from the Analects.

The article seems complete to me except with regard to one important dimension: LoFs dialogues on the imaginary. I don't necessarily disagree with you, Philip, that "G." overreached, but at the same time he was dealing with the imaginary, and so one clear characteristic of that 'set' is that it is boundless. Given that imaginary numbers are quite "real," it'd be interesting and perhaps valuable to capture S-B's thoughts in our article re. the imaginary, while at the same time sticking to a rigorous mathematical treatment of it. Philip, do you think you could you take a shot at this? --AustinKnight 14:28, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Philip Meguire, November 7. I have concluded that LoF strongly overstates the value of imaginary truth values for logic, mathematics, and engineering. Moreover, what chpt. 11 of LoF seems to groping after was anticipated by the work of the Russian logician Bochvar (Russian original 1939, English translation 1981). I am happy to let someone else add a section summarizing chpt. 11 and mentioning possible extensions (I have yet to encounter work building on LoF in a serious way; the nearest exceptions are the curious books by Nathan Hellerstein). Incidentally, the imaginary numbers are no more boundless than the reals. Granted, complex numbers are two dimensional, but Cantor showed that complex numbers have the same order of infinity as the reals.

Quite right...I should have stated "infinite" vs. "boundless." My computer science/math days are long ago and more than a bit rusty.

I am intrigued by the nature of imaginary numbers and sense (right or wrong) more than a bit of resonance in other matters of the rational mind and the demonstrated limitations thereof. I am hopeful that Spencer-Brown is at least conceptually onto something with respect to the coupling of: (1) the concept of the distinction as the root of cognition, and (2) the concept of an imaginary dimension to logic.

Clearly, imaginary numbers are already of value in the real world...I'm hopeful that the extension of white/black binary logic can benefit from their counterpart. I'll take a shot at this, perhaps. If so, the creaking hinges of mathematical thinking that you hear will be entirely my own fault. --AustinKnight 13:54, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In 1963 I attended a lecture series given by Brown (as then known) at University College London. This article considerably extends the content of that series; I guess the lectures were a try-out for the book.

Brown referred to his work on the control of lifts (elevators) as a significant driver in the development of the Laws.

I kept my lecture notes. The purpose of this 'discussion' entry (Feb, 2005) is to offer a view of my course notes, as background material for anyone who may be examining the early history of the subject. This is the web site:

   http://www.tooke-picarel.co.uk/LoF/

Richard H. Pickard, Norwich, UK

Richard Shoup has published an interesting article elaborating upon the imaginary values. At the end of the article there is a nice overview of correspondences between classical circuit notation, Boolean Algebra and the Calculus of Indications aka Laws of Form. [1]

If anybody feels compelled to elaborate upon the self-referential forms - please do. The reference to Spencer-Browns talk in 1973 is, unfortunately, the best I'm up to at the moment. I think it necessary to at least give a hint to this element of the "Laws of Form" which is crucial to many a discussion about "paradox" and the still lingering theory of types.

Unmarked state

This should be merged in (it was on an orphan page). Charles Matthews 07:51, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In George Spencer-Brown's calculus of indications, call the Laws of Form, the key operation is distinction.

To sever a space, a distinction must be drawn. This is the elementary principle of distinction. All constructs (see cognitive constructivism) are operations of distinction.

A distinction in consciousness (from normative experience to asamprajnata samadhi) is concerted by a triplistic consensus, called by Spencer-Brown, "Triplicity." The three are the 'marked state' or content, the unmarked state of Unknowable, and the mark of distinction itself, which separates the content from context. Triplicity is thus equivalent to the familiar Trinity of God, the Spirit and Man. In accord with this spiritual revelation, Charles Sanders Pierce, speaks of 'thirdness' (Piercian Thridness), and the primary two of these three are the objects, or uh, subjects, of cybernetic's 'proemial relation'.

The unmarked state is forever outside the system.

The Spirit of consciousness is Subjectivity, unity, identity, firstness of the actual. To contrast, the unmarked state is the God of consciousness, unknowable but known to be in the eternal region of Profundity.

Criticism

What does the "Resonance in religion & philosophy" have to do with Laws of Form? LoF is a formal system for logic. The "Resonance..." section quotes from a collection of religious texts that appear to have no relationship with LoF. Maybe someone could make the connection clearer. Or conversely maybe they could tell me why there aren't similar discussions in articles for other branches of logic? sigfpe Nov 1, 2005

Concerned Cynic, Nov. 4 2005. Adding the section "Resonance" is Austin Knight's preference. Once I committed to humouring him in this respect, I added the quotes from Genesis, Confucius and the rectification of names, Royce, and Wheeler.

Syntactically, the Laws of Form are no more than a streamlining of the Boolean algebra 2 and propositional logic in equational form, and monadic predicate logic. The Laws are not isomorphic to first order logic, but I am confident they can (and will) be made so.

Relation to LoF? That book reveals that Spencer-Brown believes in some God, and that he was very much caught up in the bohemian Zen mysticism (Alan Watts, Suzuki, etc.) of a half century ago. Add to that a fascination with the enigmatic Wittgenstein (popular among persons educated at Oxbridge 40-60 years ago) and Ronald Laing (the radical psychiatrist), and you can see why LoF became a cult classic (a phrase that Austin Knight will not let me include in the article!).

That God, logic, and order in the natural and human world are interconnected was argued by, e.g., Plato, Aristotle, some Chinese classics, Aquinas, Leibniz, Kant, the late Whitehead, Charles Hartshorne, and the curious American analytic philosopher Richard Milton Martin (whose Wikipedia entry I wrote). -- User:132.181.160.61

In the U.S., at least, usage of the term "cult" of any form is highly pejorative...with good reason, as we have had some truly nasty ones. It also implies some sort of at least loosely-formed organization, of which there certainly is nothing substantial for LoF that I am aware of.

As my original notes indicated, there is little avoiding of such topics around the ostensibly mathematical writings of Spencer-Brown. As User:132.181.160.61 notes in the article, S-B was highly paradoxical in his writings...sometimes to the point of being virtually opaque, but clearly with the intent of such ties as noted above.

BTW, I predicted this section at least as much as contributed to it, but did not create it. Someone else did using the original title "Analogies," and I thought to replace that with the term "Resonance" as a sort of homage to Spencer-Brown...whose work I also very much respect.

As to ties with LoF: User:132.181.160.61's list of reknown philosophers who would tie these topics together also goes, of course, into all of those currently listed in "Resonance." Historically, these topics are wedded by quite a substantial collection of individual thinkers and belief systems. It'd be intellectually dishonest to assert otherwise. Specific, referenceable ties to LoF, as also indicated in the article, include the language surrounding the "first distinction" and the Notes to Chapter 12. --AustinKnight 23:38, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

User:132.181.160.61 = Philip Meguire! I added Royce and Wheeler.

The 'History' tab above provides a good bit of clarity re. editors. It really is best to sign all 'Talk' work via the 2nd button from the right at the top of an 'Edit' page. Cheers, --AustinKnight 04:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Featured Article? Perhaps.

This was a very enjoyable article on an enjoyable book. Many of us have been influenced by it. Congratulations to those of you who have improved it. Ancheta Wis 16:35, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section

Would it be possible to conver this into prose? - Ta bu shi da yu 14:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Funny You Should Mention It (FYSMI)

I am wikiworkinup to a rewrite, but will need to discuss much before I do. Maybe later today. Jon Awbrey 15:06, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Incidental Incremental Improvement Issues (I^4)

I will list here the issues that arise as we discuss improving this article toward the point where the coverage of Laws of Form (LOF), the book by George Spencer Brown and the corresponding formal system or system of forms, plus the necessary formal and historical connections to C.S. Peirce's "Logic of Relatives: Qualitative and Quantitative", including his Logical Graphs, in their dual interpretation as entitative graphs and existential graphs, his "Qualitative Logic" manuscripts, his alpha graphs, beta graphs, gamma graphs, along with whatever else comes along, will be more generally understandable and useful to the reader.

NB. Please excuse all the acronyms -- they're just how I keep track of things in my own mind and notes. Jon Awbrey 18:00, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Query 1

I guess the first issue that comes to mind is this: What's a good way to coordinate the content here with the closely associated and/or overlapping content in the Charles Peirce article?

I submit that HTML cross referencing works just fine here.202.36.179.65 11:31, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This may be more acutely critical since I also see a message saying that this article is approaching or already passed through some kind of "singularity of size" (SOS). Is that still an issue, or is it now an obsolete concern?

Wikipedia politely suggest that entries over 32KB in size are perhaps bigger than optimal. I hear tell that that can be ignored with impunity. The 32KB is the largest segment of HTML code I can edit in one bite on the iBook I use at home. The generic Windows system in my office has no such limitation.202.36.179.65 11:31, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, how do I create a redirect from C.S. Peirce, which is the more usual name in logical and mathematical journals, not to mention large parts of the Peirce literature? Jon Awbrey 18:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is committed to Charles Peirce. The entry Charles Sanders Peirce is deemed dead. If there is a way of creating and managing aliases for Wikipedia entries, I know nothing about it.202.36.179.65 11:31, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I created a redirect for C.S. Peirce. Here's how it is done: Create a new page where you want to have a redirect. The easiest way to do this is follow a link like the one above (C.S. Peirce), or just use the search box to go to the page you want to create. type #REDIRCT and then a link to the page you want to be redirected to. In this case it was: #REDIRECT [[Charles Peirce]] -- Samuel Wantman 20:25, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Query 2

Another issue that arose somewhere between my 2nd and 3rd reading of the articla has to do with the lower case acronym pa for primary algebra. The last thing I want to do here is institute any sort of paternity suit, so ... Philip, I guess I'll address this to you in particular, just in case you have any kind of "personal attachment" (PA) to this usage. But seriously, now, here're the problems that I'm having:

To the mathematical community of interpretation, PA almost reflexively suggests "Peano Arithmetic", so I think I can see why you may have wanted to de-escalate the potential hash-clash there. But I'm not so sure that the lower register pa really does the trick, as you can't really hear the piano, in print or see the piano in normal speech -- no, I mean the other piano.

In my published work, I use "PA" to denote the primary arithmetic and "pa" the primary algebra. I write both in Helvetica, to very clearly demarcate them from the rest of the ms, which is in Palatino. I am quite aware that to many well versed in formal systems, PA brings to mind "Peano arithmetic," but you are the first to complain about this homonymy. GSB, William Bricken, and Jeffrey James have argued that one can derive the natural numbers from boundary methods, but doing so requires jettisoning A1 and exiting the PA. Hence the primary arithmetic and the Peano arithmetic are incompatible, and "PA" can refer to both with little risk of ambiguity.202.36.179.65 11:42, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I was in a bit of a jolly mood that day, but the practical point that I'm trying to make is a bit like this. If I want to explain this to somebody at a party -- yes, I confess, I have -- or over a bad cellphone connection, or in some other noise-filled environ, then I can't depend on such nuances of fontology and intonation to 'make a distinction', as it were. Jon Awbrey 14:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is hard enough to exposit math and logic in writing. To expect, further, that they be communicable in speech is a Big Ask. To expect, even further, that they be communicable viva voce in a "noise-filled" environment" is simply too much. Formal systems require and deserve our quiet contemplation. I find speech so ineffective that I have found university lectures on such matters of little use; a lecture is an Index Sequential data structure, strongly dominated by Random Access structures, such as the printed page.202.36.179.65 15:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Be that as it may, the more serious problem that I'm having is this: My own experience expositing LOF and Peirce's various systems of logical graphs tells me that it's best to do it in very gradual stages. Jon Awbrey 19:56, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the entry pretty much does as you prefer here.202.36.179.65 11:42, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I guess I'll start contributing a little more of what I have found preferable, and then we can talk about it with something less hypothetical in mind. Jon Awbrey 15:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Among other things, this means sorting out the "primary arithmetic" (PA) and the "primary algebra" (PA) from each other and introducing them to the reader or student in two distinct stages. I think you see the problem. One of the ways that I've addressed this problem in the past has been to dub the primary arithmetic "Par" and to dub the primary algebra "Pal", or fully capitalized variants thereof. What do you think? Could you live with that? Many Regards, Jon Awbrey 19:56, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I italicized "pa" here simply out of a desire not to be typographically aggressive. If we are to deviate from the status quo, I would prefer keeping "pa" but writing it in bold rather than italics.202.36.179.65 11:43, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Resonances in religion, philosophy, and science

Not sure where to put this note... but someone should seriously take a look at the wiki on Parmeides. ~wblakesx

You almost certainly mean Parmenides; I've added same today. --24.153.209.20 13:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Philip (?), For my part I find this sort of material personally fascinating, but I'm thinking that it might go better toward the end of the article, a rest from the formal rigors, as it were, especially given the problematic reception that this book has had over the years from a diversity of readers who do not appreciate diversity to the same extent. What do you think? Jon Awbrey 15:54, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The shift you propose has been done (by someone other than me) and I like the result. Turning to LoF, I do not agree that its reception by readers has been problematic, or that it has had difficulty appealing to a diversity or readers. If anything, the serious problems with LoF are:

Those who know logic and math dismiss it as "mere" Boolean algebra. They point to its confused assertions about set and type theory, and about metamathematics, and dismiss it out of hand;
Its many readers who know little about formal systems are almost invariably overawed by its enigmatic and paradoxical assertions, concluding that there are rigorous grounds for abandoning rigor!

In the history of LoF, there are two near-tragedies.

When Spencer-Brown wrote LoF, Peirce's 1886 papers using the very notation GSB was proposing were mss gathering dust at Harvard. LoF cites vol. 4 of Peirce's Collected Papers, but GSB completely missed the 100+pp that volume includes on the existential graphs. The alpha graphs are isomorphic to the primary algebra; beta and gamma go further.
Shortly after LoF was completed, George Lakoff and others began building 2nd generation cognitive science. There are strong affinities between the "container image-schema" of Lakoff's Women Fire and Dangerous Things and LoF's "distinction." There are further affinities between LoF and Where Mathematics Comes From, a work which discusses possible cognitive origins of Boolean algebra, sentential logic, and elementary set theory in some detail. I am astonished that fans of GSB and fans of Lakoff are like ships passing in the night, except perhaps in that tiny part of the universe that lies between my ears ;<) On the other hand, a few Peircians do politely acknowledge LoF.202.36.179.65 17:00, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Boundary of a boundary is zero

I deleted this remark:

A2 captures the essence of Wheeler's sentence "The boundary of a boundary is zero", quoted above.

Wheeler is referring to an axiom of algebraic topology that is very different in form from the law of crossing. Jon Awbrey 20:00, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wheeler almost surely had nothing Boolean in mind when he wrote "The boundary of a boundary is zero." And I do not doubt that he had topology in mind. But that does not necessarily invalidate my sentence to which you object. An important aspect of boundary mathematics is the way it points to all sorts of unwitting analogies and connections in the realm of abstraction. For the record, Lou Kauffman, a topologist and knot theorist, agrees with the sentence to which you object. Moreover, Boolean algebra can be grounded in elementary topology; for an exposition, see chpt. 2 of Rosser's 1969 monography on simplified independence proofs in set theory. A major unsolved problem is marrying boundary mathematics to the large corpus of topological mathematics, by either fleshing out what Rosser began in 1969, or by drawing on the laws of form to devise a non-set theoretic foundation for topology. The relation between the laws of form and topology must be clarified eventually, otherwise topologically literate mathematicians will sneer at our loose use of "boundary" and "distinction". The entry does not argue that the Laws of Form constitute an approach to 2 that is innocent of set theory, because to my thinking that is a working hypothesis, not a settled fact. Unlike many LoF fans, I have no real quarrel with the large body of academic work in math and logic. We can learn much from it, even it has missed some elementary insights.202.36.179.65 16:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

JA: I know exactly what Wheeler is referring to, and will get you a standard ref when I get time. There is no analogy here because the formal properties are totally different. The boundary operator in algebraic topology has the properties d0 = 0, dd = 0, so all higher powers of d are 0, whereas the operator () has the form, (()) = blank, ((())) = (), and so odd and even powers alternate beyween () and blank. Jon Awbrey 16:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In my view, this controversy points out the need to flesh out an intriguing little 2x2 table in Shoup's website, one claiming that changes to I1 and I2 yield finite numbers, sets, and multisets. The Holy Grail for me is a unified boundary formalism for lattices, number systems up to real analysis, sets, point set topology, and discrete math. Perhaps even groups and categories.202.36.179.65 17:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Speculation on Spencer-Brown's sources

JA: Your statements about Spencer-Brown's sources remain for the time being in the realm of wholly unsourced speculation. I'm told that they have moderately adequate libraries at Cambridge and Oxford, and transatlantic aeronautic transport was commonly available to the average scholar even in those primitive times. There were microfilm editions of Peirce's Nachlass at many university libraries in the early 70's just from my personal acquaintance. But the essentials of Peirce's graphical systems are abundantly clear from what is found in CP, and Spencer-Brown evinced a clear insight into their character. Jon Awbrey 17:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]