Talk:Mohammad Mosaddegh

Isn't Coup a more accurate representation of what happened in 1954 than "plot"

I'm just a bit confused about the heading of this section. All the sources that I have read including "All the Shah's Men" by Stephen Kinser and a New York Times article seem to indicate that the Eisenhower administration along with Churchill's government orchestrated a Coup to overthrow the democratically elected government of Mossadegh. So shouldn't we reflect this by providing a more appropriate and accurate heading?

-I (another person than the one who wrote the above comment) disagree. A coup is, by definition, a plot anyway, so I don't see an issue here.

69.196.106.158 07:03, 10 March 2006 (UTC)Kinster

An event mentioned in this article is an August 19 selected anniversary.

---

reference to plot "orchestrated" by British and US intelligence services

The self-congratulatory claims of Messieurs Wilber and Kim Roosevelt, with respect to their roles in the events of 1953, which led to the ousting of Dr. Muhammad Mossaddeq from his position as Prime Minister, need to be viewed with due caution. Serious historical analyses have found contradictions, gross exaggerations and blunt lies in the portrayal of their roles. Numerous pundits have felt compelled to proliferate (unreflectedly) the tale of the "CIA" coup, e.g. The Iranian activists in the uprisings as well as counter coup instigation are minimized unrealistically to bit-part players, while it is undisputed from a rational point of view and factual eyewitness accounts that two foreign individuals can have hardly steered a few thousand (conservative and mostly xenophobic) Iranians, in the narrated fashion. For example, Kim Roosevelt's claim that he supposedly communicated with General Fazlollah Zahedi in German, is mere nonsense, as General Fazlollah Zahedi spoke only Russian and Turkish, beside his native Persian (Farsi). Others cite the "memoirs" of General Fardust, which have been written by the Mullah Regime, based on propagandistic diction. The CIA today claims to have lost its entire documented coverage of the events of 1953 in a FIRE! It is easy, therefore, to claim anything in anybody's fancy, without documented facts backing those claims.

Just wondering if this confused anyone?

"After negotiations for higher oil royalties failed, on March 15, 1951 the Iranian parliament (the Majlis) voted to nationalize Iran's oil industry, and seize control of the British-owned and operated Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. Prime minister General Haji-Ali Razmara, elected in June 1950, had opposed the nationalization bill on technical grounds. He was assassinated on March 7, 1951 by Khalil Tahmasebi, a member of the militant fundamentalist group Fadayan-e Islam. A while later, the Majlis voted for Mossadegh as new prime minister. Aware of Mossadegh's rising popularity and political power, the young Shah was left with no other option but to give assent to the Parliament's vote. Shortly after coming to office, Mossadegh enforced the Oil Nationalization Act, which involved the expropriation of the AIOC's assets."

In this paragraph i found myself wondering who the young shah was. Now im assuming father and son had the same name and when the elder abdicated in 1944 the younger one took over?

Just wondering if this confused anyone? ==

The "Young Shah" was indeed the son of the previous one, Reza Shah Pahlavi. But he succeeded his father in 1941, not 1944.

--206.246.81.183 15:16, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) Alee 06/19/05

Assisting the Head of State defend against violent overthrow is not a "Coup".

Mohammed Reza Pahlavi was named head of state, i.e Shah, of Iran in 1941 and remained head of state (Shah) until the revolution of 1979. As the article states, Mohammed Mossadegh attempted to overthrow him in 1953 but his attempt failed (with or without help from the CIA). The curious thing is that since 1979 or 1980 the Shah's efforts to thwart Mossadegh and retain his position has been labelled a "Coup". In fact it was Mossadegh's actions that was the coup, or attempted coup. This reverse-speak was given official sanction by U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright in 2000 when she referred to President Eisenhower's support of the legitimate government of Iran as a "Coup".

The overthrow of Mossadegh was a "Coup" as it was executed in violation of legality and against the will of the Iranian people - organized through a democratically elected parliament. You are wrong, the legitimate government was not represented by the Shah. You should read up on Jefferson. Mossadegh was the head of the Executive branch, the majlis represented the legislative branch. The Shah was the legitimate head of State, as Juan Carlos is in Spain for instance, but not the head of the Government.

I am curious as to how Mossi's actions were a Coup or violent. Does our poorly versed Iranian scholar know anything about how the Pahlavi's came to power in the first place?

--206.246.81.183 15:58, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)Alee 06/19/05

The unsigned comment is to some extent, true. Dr. Mossadegh was an extraordinary, truly great man and an outstanding politician. His extraordinary patriotism, however, resulted in his making several mistakes. It is really not all wrong to say that it was him, not the Shah, who actually staged a coup. The Shah was, by constitution, head of state, and head of the three branches of government. Thus it is correct to say that he was head of government. One point of caution which is due, is that he made sure this was explicitly added to the constitution after Mossadegh's overthrow, however, it was already common practice, and common understanding of the constitution (which I think was not clear on this), before Mossadegh as well. As you may have noticed, by law, the Shah appointed the Prime minister, who had then to be also approved by the parliament. However, it is clear that a monarch with the power of appointing prime ministers has also the right to ask them to resign, which is what the shah did, few days before he fled Iran in that year. It was Mossadegh, who, having gained -not entirely legitimately - control over the armed forces, refused to resign. Before, by threating Shah with the same armed forces, he had already sent his family to exile, thus it was Mossadegh, not the Shah, who used the military to step-by-step push back the constitution and prevent the Shah from exercising his constitutional rights and duties. The shah's attempt was, at best, a counter-coup, not a coup. That is how I see it. Commonly, however, it is nowadays referred to as a coup, which I beleive is not entirely fair towards the Shah. Mossadegh's moves, although popular at that time, and probably democratically legitimate, were not according to constitution and were illegitimate from a legal point of view. I think he as a great lawyer knew that best of all. It is strange how politics brings two great people to such opposite positions at times. It is in fact sad. Shervink 13:34, 1 October 2005 (UTC)shervink

By the way, let's not refer to Dr. Mossadegh as Mossi, it is not a very nice nickname. Shervink 13:37, 1 October 2005 (UTC)shervink

You are completely wrong and I cant believe you are suggesting that Mossadegh staged a coupe and that the Shah was the victim. It sends shivers down my spine when people, to this day, try to defend what was done. Mossadegh did resign in protest and the Shah gave him and the parliament control over the armed forces as a result. What is "not entirely legitimate" about that? And I am a bit confused. What constitutional rights and duties was Mossadegh preventing the Shah from doing? And dont forget. The Shah was described as a coward by the CIA. He didn’t have the guts or the support to stage the coup himself. The Shah was just a puppet and the coup was done for him by American and British intelligence agencies.

I don't think I am completely wrong. At least in our admiration of Mossadegh (in which I am very sincere) we certainly agree. However, I am a bit more fair than you, I beleive. As I said, it is a matter of point of view, for now at least. And I am making no attempt to reflect my view in the main article either. However, a brief response to your points: - Control of the armed forces, by law, was the Shah's responsibility. And you must see the context as well. Mossadegh's action in demanding that control was a signal to the British that Iran is willing to fight a war with them, which would leave Iranians in hunger and despair and the country in ruins. - That Mossadegh did not resign few days before 28 mordad, when the Shah asked him to, was unconstitutional. The Shah had the right to dissolve parliament and to change prime-minister. That is what I mean when I say Dr. Mossadegh didn't adhere to law, although in good faith. - The Shah was not described as a coward by CIA during that stage (Maybe in 1979, it could be you heard it in that connection). Moreover, Roosevelt's report clearly mentions that they had counted on the Shah's polpular support and that similar things in other countries would not work because their leaders are not as popular as Iran's Shah! - Anyhow, How come we are talking about a coup when military was controlled by Mossadegh? I really don't want to argue this further here simply because such an issue cannot be resolved on a wikipedia discussion page. It is too complicated and our views are probably too far apart. Shervink 16:36, 1 October 2005 (UTC)shervink

I doubt that the British or anyone in their right mind believed that Mossadegh would go to war with Britain. That would be suicide since Britain was a superpower at the time.

I am referring to the CIA report about the coup written by Dr. Donald N. Wilber, one of the leading planners. Here is a recap from the NYT article that first published the report: "The document shows that the agency had almost complete contempt for the man it was empowering, Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlevi, whom it derided as a vacillating coward". The Shah's "popular support" (which was at best very small) had very little to do with the success of the coup. Read the report: http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-intro.html

What does control over the military by Mossadeqh have to do with the coup? And for future references if you dont want to argue dont write dubious statements.

Let's be fair. What a great man the Shah was for our (am I right in assuming you are Iranian?) country should, at least by now, be clear to everybody. Same holds, by the way, for Mossadegh. Refering to a NY Times article to suggest otherwise is a bit strange, to say the least. This coward, as you call him, picked up a ruin and, well we saw what he made of it. Let's be fair. just fair. Shervink 23:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)shervink

===========================================================================

If we are going to "be fair" about this whole saga... perhaps it would be wise to contextualize the goals of each leader. Mossadeq's main goal was to nationalize the oil and bring a more "fair" share of the $ to the Iranian people. By most accounts, Iran was getting a horrible percentage of the oil $, and the people were seeing very little of that. Mossadeq was trying to lift up Iran as a country. What was the Shah doing? Whatever it was, he was NOT fighting the Brittish for the good of his country!

BTW, not once have I seen anyone mention that post-Mossadeq Iran was getting more US aid than any other country at the time. Is it coincidence that Mossadeq, one of the first Iranians to stand up to the UK and fight for the people, falls from power and short order the Shah is getting $ and guns to shore up his position.... ? While Mossadeq was in power, every aid request he made to the US was denied... go figure.

And as far as the supplemental article written by the General Zahedi's son... I see absolutely no independent sources cited to back his claims. I wouldn't say his view of history is objective, either.

But, as far as who overthrew who, that's not the point so much as what each leader's intentions were. Mossadeq sought to use Iran's resources to lift the country out of poverty, while the Shah.... ? - C. Davis

My view is that they both had good intentions. The Shah was never really opposed to the nationalization of the oil. The point was that he was more pragmatic than Mossaddegh. What good is nationalized oil if nobody buys it from us, we are under sanctions and the people are starving? Mossaddegh 'planned to' lift Iran as a country, the Shah actually did it (at least economically, but also in many other ways), undoubtedly with the help of foreign countries, who saw their interests preserved by that. Due to what Mossaddegh had done, the Shah could get much more money out of the oil sells for Iran, money which was desperately needed. Ardeshir Zahedi is obviously very biased in his assesment, I completely agree with that, and with a lot of what he says I don't agree anyhow. But I think including it gives the reader an opportunity to see what the other side is thinking about the whole matter, and his opinion is noteworthy to mention not because it's correct, but because he was one of the most influential politicians of the Shah times and his views can lead to insight into how these people thought when they were making those policies. Shervink 01:19, 15 October 2005 (UTC)shervink

In discussions about the "intentions" of the Shah and Dr. Mossadegh regarding Iran's well-being, isn't a comparison of their personal wealth, the amount and sources, a relevant indicator? Tampacajun, 14 May 2006

=

I agree with your point about the uselessness of oil when there are no buyers. But, Mossadeq is less to blame for that than the Brittish are, as well as the US. Mossadeq was expressing the popular will of the Iranian people - he was trying to fix a horrible situation brought about by the Shahs' "negotiations" with the UK. It is easy to say that perhaps Mossadeq would have been more successful if he hadn't taken such a hard line, but it is just as easy to say that the US would have a much different relationship with the region if they had chosen to help a representative of the people (instead of taking sides with an imperial giant and a monarch).

But, when it comes to the Shah, it seems his intentions revolved around self-preservation more than anything else. He only warmed to the idea of oil nationalization when it was clear his authority was in jeopardy. A strong case can be made that if he had initially ruled with the intention of helping his people lift themselves out of poverty, then Mossadeq wouldn't have been the popular politician he became.

As a citizen of the U.S., I am astonished how little this period of history is discussed or remembered (by the US population, that is). My opinion is that the actions of the U.S. during this time are related to the current tensions between Iran and the U.S. - at least as much as any religious or political differences.

BTW, Stephen Kinzer wrote an excellent book on the coup of '53, "All the Shah's Men." Just a suggestion for anyone who is reading this. I am sure you (Shervink) have read it, or are familiar with it. Thank you - C.Davis

I do not agree with your point that the Shah acted mainly on selfishness. As for the relation to the current tensions between the US and Iran, I think the 1953 actions are completely unrelated. It is a popular myth among a number of intellectuals that the Iranian people never have forgiven the Americans for ousting a democratic leader, Mossadegh. First and foremost, Mossadegh was only as democratic as any other prime minister of the monarchy era. He was never elected, but appointed by the Shah himself. Second, he violated the constitution several times to obtain extra powers. It was the Shah who held firm to the constitution, to preserve which was his most important duty as a monarch. Third, Iranians are friends of America, and the most important reason for that is the prospeous times they had under the Shah with the support of the US. You would never, never, hear the average Iranian say he would be angry over the US for what they did in 1953. The problem with people such as Ahmadinejad is also different. They are extremists who would never care about democracy, nor about Mossadegh for that matter. They despise Mossadegh just as much as they despise any American president. As for the issue of American intervention, there is no reason for the Americans to feel guilty. For whatever reason they acted as supporters of the Shah in 1953, it was the right decision. Shervink 18:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)shervink

Right.. I guess then that Madeleine Albright regretted the coup and said sorry for no reason on public tv? --- Melca 21:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

What I said was that the current problems are not due to those of 1953. Albright didn't say otherwise, as far as I know. She apologized for an American role in the 1953 plot, which was nothing to apologize for, in my opinion. If she thought she should apologize, that's her problem, not mine. Shervink 22:53, 21 December 2005 (UTC) shervink

"nothing to apologize for"? To say this is pure "Negationism". Even Dr. Kissinger implied American wrong doing with regards to Mossadegh, claiming that what Dulles did in America was the best route given the perception of Mossadegh at the time, and given the morbid fear of communism prevalent in Washington. Albright did not apologize b/c she felt bad, she apologized as the Secretary of State for actions perpetrated by American diplomacy against the sovereignty of a nation. Truth be told she apologized to the Islamic Republic which certainly didn't deserve to be the recipient of American empathy.168.187.0.35 08:32, 25 December 2005 (UTC)HAF

No, There isn't anything to apologize for. Maybe jimmy carter but not Ike. Sorry! Iran was becoming a bad guy in 1953. We stopped it! Ever since carter and 1979, they have been bad!!! (68.227.211.175 23:53, 24 January 2006 (UTC))

"Iran was becoming bad guy" I suppose we will never know. The whole Mossadegh era and its possible successes and ramifications in today's situation are just fluff at this point. Nonetheless, American diplomacy cannot claim its relationship with Iran from 54 to 79 as a success. And in light of the Shah's brutality, and failure, and the bigotry witnessed since 1979, it is only logical and legitimate to take another look at Mossadegh and the men who worked with him. After all, they went to the same schools, read the same books and appreciated the same art as their european counterparts... 168.187.0.34 13:01, 29 January 2006 (UTC)HAF

reason why

Mossadegh's Tudeh party was officially Stalinist; why would the US support him? BTW, it was the evil shah who set Iran on the course to modernization, women's rights etc. until the Ayatollah overthrew his gov't and murdered 30,000 people (I'm aware of the abuses by the SAVAK secret police, but their crimes pales in comparison to theocratic Iran). Explain to me how the US was in the wrong here. --70.189.32.215 16:10, 13 December 2005

Rm uk 13:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC) says

shah helped woman's rights? whatever! He wanted to turn iran into a nation of prostitutes. He should have enforced basic human rights first. Without human rights all other rights pale in comparison.

I bet if it was one of your family that "experienced" the shah's torture chambers you wouldnt be so lavish in your praise of this criminal.

"Mossadegh's Tudeh party"? Are you implying or asserting that Mossadegh was part of Tudeh? Get your facts straight. Mossadegh was the head of the Iranian National Front (Jebbeh Melli), not the Tudeh. Iran's modernization was certainly not his sole doing and selling the country away to foreigners or disturbing the mores of millions doesn't make the Shah an enlightened despot. BTW, saying that the Mullahs are worse really doesn't say much about the Shah. 168.187.0.35 08:31, 25 December 2005 (UTC)HAF

I find it difficult to believe that there are still people defending the Shah and the operation to install him. After the terrible pains that these guys have caused the Iranian people: the Shah's incompetent, sadistic and corrupt rule; supplying Iraq with arms with which to attack Iran; retarding the development of the Iranian polity and more; I would think that the elements of the old regime and the west in general would at least have the decency to leave this argument alone.

Docteur Mossadegh

Mossadegh is maainly known in France as "Docteur Mossadegh". But why ? For a long time I believe he was a physician... Did he wrote a doctoral dissertation at the IEP ? Ericd 19:57, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

He was a doctor of law, as far as I know. However his son, Dr. Gholam-Hossein Mossadegh was a physician. Shervink 21:35, 19 February 2006 (UTC)shervink

He probably eraned his doctoral degree at the IEP in France ? Ericd 19:42, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

According to "All the Shah's Men", he earned his doctorate of law in 1914 from a university in Neuchatel, Switzerland. The university is not named in the book.

There are still mentally deranged individuals who criticize the granting of women's rights and liberalization. That is what is scary. Mossadegh was a hero. The Shah had become a nationalist. The fake Islamic British puppets--the muslim clergy-- have been the biggest traitors in that part of the world.

Collective farming?

Is it true that he introduced collective farming? To what extent?

Communism, fabrication or reality?

Mossadegh imposed collective farming, oil industry nationalization, government land ownership, yet "The United States was falsely informed that Mossadegh was increasingly turning towards Communism". Collective farming, nationalizations, and government land ownership are objectively a turn towards Communism from an economic perspective. A 99.9% vote on where the sun rises is mildly suspicious, much less on a political question like dissolving parliament. Rigged elections that empower the executive certainly were in the Soviet play book at the time.

It's strange that there are no citations from the Soviet archives on their relations with Mossadegh. That is an independent viewpoint that should be included into any true NPOV article. TMLutas 20:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

IF anything, Mossadegh was an Iranian Nationalist and a possible promoter of socialism. But he was no way a part of the Soviet Posse. He despised Russian intervention in the Middle East, just as he despised British. The one critical mistake westerns make, is that we judge how foreign questions are run, and belive they should run, without studying about the history of the respective regions. If we did, we'd find out that nationalizing the oil industry, among other things were needed policies to enrich Iran, and foster betterment among the rural class. Besides, it has been said that Mossadegh nationzlied the oil industry, because the Brithish company (as usual with transnationals), did not pay Iran its proper dues.

Death date is Wrong

I changed to 5th march http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/biography/

Picture

Is the second picture really from August 1953? The uniforms of the soldiers seem to be winter coats, August in Tehran would be way too hot for such clothing! Can anybody clarify this somehow? Shervink 17:20, 5 March 2006 (UTC)shervink

That picture could not have been taken in August in Tehran, precisely for the reason you mentioned. --Houshyar 21:33, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I actually talked to my father about this issue, he was alive at that time and said that the military uniform did not differ greatly between the seasons and that the military usually wore this uniform, he also mentioned that the uniforms were made of a fabric that did not make the person wearing it hot. -Pouyan t

The picture is accurate. If you take a closer look at other pictures of the 28 Mordad incident, you will see that all personnel are wearing full uniforms [1][2] and full suits [3] and even trenchcoats [4]. These uniforms [5] were not fasli (seasonal) and were fixed. My grandfather was also a colonel of the Shah's Army. I remember him with only one uniform. Keep in mind that the weather patterns of those days were not exactly the same as those of today. When I was a kid, it would snow in Shiraz and the river was full. Now it routinely hits 100 degrees every summer, and the river has completely dried up.--Zereshk 00:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

transliteration

I don't know if this has been brought up, but his name should be written as "Mossadeq". Transliterating the qaf as "gh" is not very standard. Likewise, it should be "Muhammad" or "Mohammad", but not "Mohammed". Cuñado - Talk 19:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

There's no standard transliteration, but we should try to use the most common spelling we can. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Arabic) for a proposed policy that would apply Wikipedia-wide. Below is a chart of possible name combos, and how many Google hits each returns, with relevant footnotes.

Possible names	Mohammed	Mohammad	Muhammad1
Mossadegh	63,7002	43,800	679
Mossadeq	13,700	11,7003	457
Mosaddeq	319	15,4004	159
Mussadegh	912	2	3475

• ¹This version of the first name is Wikipedia's preferred spelling of the Prophet's name, and has the most Google hits as a single name.
• ²This is Wikipedia's current title, so the Google hit number may be somewhat inflated by the inclusion of Wikipedia mirrors and other sites using Wikipedia's spelling as a reference. This spelling is also used by the U.S. State Department about half the time, and Time Magazine's famous 1927 cover of Mossadegh used this spelling. Also, the New York Times prefers this spelling.
• ³This spelling is used by the State Department the other half of the time.
• ⁴The Encyclopedia Britannica uses this spelling.
• ⁵The Columbia Encyclopedia uses this spelling, for some reason.

Based on all this, I'd say we should keep the article with it's current name, but there's certainly room for debate. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 20:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Good research. If you look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Arabic) there is a "standard version" which does use [q] for transliterating 'qaf'. But it is only a proposal right now. Likewise, [Muhammad] is clearly the most used and more proper version of the Prophet's name. I have been working on several pages working to standardize the different transliterations of Arabic script. It seems that there are a lot of people opposed to standardization which either quote two things: 1)the transliteration is not phonetic, and in Persian cases, they pretend that it's pronounced differently in Persian (although the exact same word); 2) the non-standard version has become 'English', as in the case of Mecca, which properly transliterated should be [Makkah].

Persian pronunciation really does differ from Arabic pronunciation. Why do you say "they pretend," anyway? Μost speakers of Arabic and Persian will agree that names that are spelled the same way using Arabic letters end up being pronounced quite differently by Iranians and Arabs. Shall we start calling the Ottoman Empire the `Uthman Empire, even though the Ottomans, who lacked the letter `ayn in their sound system, pronounced what was spelled in Arabic as `Uthman (عثمان) as "Osman"? The short vowels "a" "i" and "u" of Arabic sound like "æ" "e" and "o" in Persian. Iranians pronounce not only the vowels but also the "h" (ح)in Mohammed (محمد) quite differently from Arabs. And the "q" (ق) of Arabic invariably gets pronounced like "gh" (same sound as for ghayn (غ) in Persian) by Iranians. It is strange that you insist on Arabic transliteration (which reflects Arabic, not Persian pronunciation) for the spelling of this Iranian leader's name. Just because my Korean name CAN be written in Chinese characters doesn't mean I have to go around transliterating using a Chinese standard (I'm not sure what it would be exactly, but i'm guessing it's "Xin Zhifan" (申基範)). It makes a LOT more sense for me to use the Korean spelling, "Shin Kibum" (신기범). And in any case most people call me by my American name, which is Tony. Shall I start spelling it in Greek, since my name is originally from Greek Αντώνιος? Standardization is a fine goal, but don't impose an Arabic standard on this Iranian leader.

I am in favor of standardization, because currently a wide and chaotic array of transliterations are used by people that don't realize a standard exists. I don't give much credit to google searches as proof of the common English name. In the case of Fatimah Zahra, someone wanted it to be [Fatima], but google searches were predominantly references to the town in Spain where an apparition of the virgin Mary appeared (the lady of Fatima). Cuñado - Talk 05:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I also think a standard transliteration system is badly needed, not just for Wikipedia but for the West in general. The whole project could certainly use a jumpstart from a dedicated Wikipedian. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 15:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

In this case the argument is about two different things - transliteration would use the arabic since it is supposed to represent the spelling, whereas a transcription would represent the differces in the Persian pronounciation (which is considerable). I would favour transcription in this instance as to me how the name is said is more important than how it is written. We need to know how to correctly say a name in a different script, not how it is spelt in that script - this is useful to academics (who would know anyway) but not to the general public, if you follow me.

Well, I am somewhat surprised but the correct transliteration of the name has not been put correctly here at all..Anyone familiar with the Arabic or Persian language knows that there are no letters such as -o- and -e- but only pronounced as such when there is an emphatic letter in front..the other troubling information the user gets here is that the name has a doubling of the wrong letters in the surname..it is inconceivable to assume that the name could be spelled with a double -s- and then a -gh-..The correct spelling can only be Muhammad Musaddiq with a -u- and a doubling of the -m- in Muhammad and a -u-, a double -d- and a -q- in Musaddiq.

Addition needed.

New York Times "Text of Mossadegh Letter to Truman" June 29, 1951 Pg. 5

New York Times "Mossadegh Offer on Oil is Reported" By Albion Ross July 21, 1952 Pg. 1

New York Times "Iran Stands Firm on Oil Case Rights" Special to the New York Times May 10, 1951 Pg. 4

Although Mossadegh may have violated past agreement which he explained was under extrenuating circumstances of occupation by the British which left no choice in so far as deciding oil or independence, he did agree to continue the flow of oil to western countries and provide compensation to the British for their loss in the AIOC.

extra addition to author

Regardless of the mention of this addition, the article is not too left or right in political concerns which means you took a intelligent and fair approach in writing this article. Good Job.

M. Mossadegh

Hello,

your text is very good, however there is a mistake : Dr Mossadegh got his PhD from Neuchâtel University, in Switzerland, in 1914 (and not from Paris). I have his thesis in front of me entitled "Le testament en droit musulman (secte Chyite, précédé d'une introduction sur les sources du droit musulman". Thèse présentée par M. Mossadegh à la faculté de droit de l'université de Neuchâtel le 1er mai 1914 pour obtenir le grade de Docteur. (Paris, Librairie Ancienne & Moderne, Georges Crès et Cie éditeurs, 116 boulevard Saint-Germanin, 116) 1914

Thanks for making the correction Yours Claudine Faehndrich University of Neuchâtel Switzerland claudine.faehndrich@unine.ch

Fixed. Aucaman^Talk 10:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

According to Encyclopædia Britannica Mossadegh received a Doctor of Law degree from the University of Lausanne in Switzerland [6]. But according to this book by the National Security Archive he received his Doctor of Law degree from the University of Neuchâtel. I think Britannicas got it wrong. --- Melca 09:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Isn't "Reasonable Assistance"a more accurate representation of what happened in 1954 than "plot"

I'm confused about something. Here we have an apparently insane guy who was creating a dictatorship, falsfying elections, dissolving parliament, dissolving the Supreme court, socializing the economy, crippling the oil industry, and because the U.S. cooperated in his removal by the head of state, it's considered a "plot"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alex7777 (talk • contribs) .

Yes he was insane, because he nationalized the oil, how dared he take away take away all that free money from the brittish. And then he boldly tried to sell the oil to feed his uncivilized countrymen! But our brave soldiers and mighty navy stopped his small boats from getting out from the persian gulf and sell it. Long live the Queen --Darkred 11:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, Mossadegh systematically neglected the constitution of Iran. He dissolved the parliament, and didn't resign when asked to do so by the Shah. Both were violations of the constitution. What he did in nationalizing the oil industry was a remarkable achievement, but nevertheless it is technically wrong to talk about a coup here. The whole thing was totally legal and legitimate, in fact it preserved the constitution, and Mossadegh himself achknowledges that in his book "Khaterat Va Taalomate Dr. Mossadegh". He clearly states that he didn't accept the constitution and that he knowingly violated it. Shervink 15:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)shervink

Yes but he had a good cause for doing so. He was trying to not let the country fall into the brittish hands again. In my opinion he had the right to do whatever necessary to achieve that. --Darkred 20:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe that is true. I also think that he acted in good faith. But the fact of the matter is, as he himself has written, that he was not willing to adhere to the constitution. The Shah, on the other hand, did. Fact is, also, that Mossadegh was never really elected. The common version of the story believed by most people states the exact opposite. It has been advertised that it was the Shah who, violating the constitution, removed the elected Mossadegh from power. In fact, however, the Shah used his constitutional right to remove the unelected Mossadegh (who himself had violated the constitution by dissolving the parliament) from power. What the intentions were is speculation, but the factual state of affairs is very clear. Shervink 15:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)shervink

Democratically elected and Coup

Dear Shervink. Please dont remove sourced material. The following independent and published sources ([7][8][9][10][11][12]) all refer to Mossadegh as democratically elected and the actions of the CIA and MI5 as a coup. And i am also sure you have heard of Stephen Kinzer's well written book, All the Shah's Men, which also backs this up. If you can find published sources however, that explicitly state why it is "technically wrong to talk about a coup" feel free to merge that into the text. Melca 08:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear Melca, I'm glad to see you're back after such long time. I remember we had a similar discussion on the Mohammad Reza Shah talk page, and I offered you several sources there, namely two books, several articles, and interviews. What I only recently realized was that Mossadegh himself admitted that he was in breach of the constitution, you can take a look at his memoirs for that. (It's Khaterat va Taalomate Dr. Mossadegh in Persian, I'm not sure about the English traslation, if any.) Shervink 11:07, 4 May 2006 (UTC)shervink

Yes i remember that. But none of the sources, such as Ardeshir Zahedi, explain why it is technically wrong to talk about a coup. They just flat out deny that a coup ever took place. I guess that could qualify as an explanation but that would put the word of a small minority against what's been reported in the mainstream media. More specifically i was asking for a independent scholar that has done some research and published his finding's in for example a peer reviewed academic journal.

I was not aware that Mossadegh wrote that in his memoirs. But if he did i find it strange since he did not accept the charges against him and defended himself in the subsequent trials. If you can provide the name of the publisher, isbn number and what page he states that, i will gladly look into it. But even if he did admit being in breach of the constitution it does not change that the media has reported him as being democratically elected. --- Melca 12:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Shervink you have removed sourced material again. More specifically you have removed the text "democratically elected". The very mention of a coup necessitates a mention of a democratic election. If democratic elections were common place in Iran at the time and went without saying it would not have been explicitly stated in the sources provided. --- Melca 08:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

It is simply incorrect to state that a coup necessitates a mention of a democratic election. For a recent demonstration, the news media was full of discussion of a coup against Saddam Hussein in 2002. Separately, Kim Jong Il, like his father before him has suppressed suspected coup attempts. Going back in history, the coup plot against Hitler and suspected coup plots against Stalin provide ample example that Mossadegh could have a coup against him whether or not he had been elected. TMLutas 20:39, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you are misunderstanding what i wrote. I'm sorry if i was not more clear but i was responding to the following edit by Shervink [13]. I didn't mean that Mossadegh couldn't have a coup against him if he had not been elected. He certainly could have as you have pointed out. --- Melca 21:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Shervink you keep removing referenced content [14] [15] [16]. You have again removed that Mossadegh was Democratically elected and that the Coup was funded by the British and U.S. governments. Instead you have watered it down to Mossadegh was "appointed by the Shah..." and that Mossadegh was removed with "supported from the British and U.S. governments". What kind of support? By writing that the support was a "British and U.S. funded CIA coup" makes this explicit. Instead of engaging in a revert war please discuss you changes at the talk page first and reach consensus. I have left your addition that Mossadegh "was twice appointed to office by Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran, and approved by the vote of the democratically elected parliament" but i need a reference that explicitly states that that was how prime ministers were elected at that time in Iran. According to this book that was not how prime ministers were elected.

I'd really appreciate it if you would stop putting vandalism warnings on my talk page for what is obviously a content dispute. I cannot remember you or anybody else answering to my post on the last lengthy discussion on this talk [17], which means that consensus was never reached. Shervink 15:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)shervink

You are refering to a discussion between you and user:Khorshid. Nevertheless most of your points in that post were responded to here, where you left the discussion by writing "i'm tired of discussing obvious matters".

Well, even if it was not directly addressed to you, I believe you should consider reading it before making edits. Anyhow, you have absolutely failed so far at providing any credible reasoning for why the point of view I am presenting here should be excluded. It is held by several sources, and don't say they are all biased or involved in the matter, because they are not. The only way to make this article NPOV is to include them as well. Failure to do so on your part is clearly POV pushing and deliberate exclusion of sources. Shervink 09:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)shervink

Im not POV pushing anything or excluding any sources. I am just restoring referenced content removed by you. I did read your post and i told you that several people, including myself, already commented on your points and references here. Also you have removed referenced content again. There are several references in the article all referring to the events as a CIA coup which was led by Kermit Roosevelt. --- Melca 11:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Melca, Regarding your recent post on my talk page and the above post, the fact of the matter remains that I have removed no content what so ever from the page. I have included the mainstream term coup, as well as references to the CIA, US, and UK, as well as the term democratically elected. I have not included anything from the other point of view, for which I have already provided several references, in the introduction. All I have done is to tone down the harsh tone of the inroduction to make it more encyclopedic and NPOV. I cannot imagine what your problem is with that. Rgarding the name of Kermit Roosevelt, it is definitely not important enough to be mentioned in a 4 or 5 line long intro, where the names of several other critical figures, such as Dr. Fatemi, Ayatollah Kashani, General Zahedi, ... are missing. Shervink 13:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)shervink

Thats not true. Its true that you have backed away from removing "democratically elected" but you are removing the term "CIA orchestrated coup" and changing it to "plot" and you are also removing that the coup was "known as Operation Ajax" [18]. Also its not up to you to decide what is important enough to be in the intro. Todays featured article (Slate industry in Wales) for example has a much longer intro than this article. What is it that you think is in a "harsh tone" and not NPOV? Please list them here --- Melca 14:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer, as well as for your efforts to have me blocked. I am impressed. Well, it is not up to me alone to decide what goes into the intro, but neither is it up to you alone. We are supposed to decide that together. I have included the term coup, the funding and support by CIA, the terms US and British government. That is more than enough for such a short intro. I have not included the fact that Mossadegh acted against the constitution, which he declared as illegitimate in his memoirs, nor the fact that a number of scholars have discredited the term coup, nor the fact that the claims by your sources are directly in contradiction to the text of the constiution. I believe this is much more concession than you actually deserve, and the reason is only the lack of time on my behalf to discuss with you on so many things. If you like to make the intro longer, I'd appreciate that, as long as you write something that's balanced. You can of course write about Roosevelt's efforts, and use his account of those days as a source, but then you should do the same about Zahedi, whose role was not less significant, and also include his version of the story, which denies even the existence of a coup. Don't you think that would be more reasonable? Shervink 15:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)shervink

Thanks for not reverting again and taking the time to discuss our differences. Kermit Roosevelt, Jr was the grandson of an American president. That's not insignificant. I think that's pretty interesting and belongs in the intro especially sine the coup is mentioned and he was the head of it. He was not just some unknown cia agent. If he was i could maybe understand you would want it removed. But even then its just one sentence. I don't see the big deal. As i said before there are other articles with much longer intros than this. For example the Theodore Roosevelt article is over 25 lines long and has been identified as a featured article. Also I'm not using Kermit Roosevelt accounts of the events, nor should i or anyone else. That would be POV. Instead I'm referencing what has been reported in the media and written by the academia. Yes we can write that according to Kermit this is what happened or that Zahedi "denies the existence of a coup". Those viewpoints should also be reflected but they they are minority views.

Now for the "scholars have discredited the term coup" and the "Mossadegh acted against the constitution" that you mention. These two subjects were discussed here. Again consensus was reached before you left the discussion that those are minority views and that a coup took place. Last but not least the thing about Mossadegh writing that he "acted against the constitution". I responded to this above, in my post from May 4. 2006, that i find this very unlikely. However if you can reference it with a publisher, isbn number and what page he states that, i don't mind you adding that to the article. People can look it up for themselves to see if its true. I hope this answers your questions.

Sorry for removing your name correction btw. --- Melca 17:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Well, as I said already, I don't disagree with putting the info regarding Roosevelt's role in those events. What I am saying is that he, even according to the CIA's documents, is not the only significant person behind the "coup", or whatever one calls it. What I'm objecting to here is to single him out in this manner, and to even fail to include Zahedi, among others. Include as much info as you can, but be careful to keep it balanced please. Likewise, all sources highlighting the role of Roosevelt, in effect are based on the CIA documents, which have been written by one of the organizers of the coup, namely, the CIA and Roosevelt. Other people involved in the coup (whose involvement was much clearer than Roosevelts, because they went into high ranks of government upon its success), tell a partly or entirely different story. If we are to include one organizer's account, we should also include the other's reports. Don't you think? There is no objective reason to rely solely/mainly on CIA documents regarding this topic. The reason that western media have mostly reported on the CIA view is simply its ease of access for them (as well as their usual sensationalism), rather than necessarily their superior content.

As for Mossadegh's book, I read it a while ago in a friend's house,I don't own it, and it is unfortunately rather difficult to find. I'll try my best to find a copy and give you a more detailed citation as soon as possible. Shervink 17:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)shervink

I dont think that its stated in such a way that, Kermit was the only significant person behind the coup. The intro merely states that he led the coup. In other words he was responsible for the funding set aside for the coup, the planing, the organization and so on. The execution was done mostly by others. He could of course not have done it without the support of the Shah, Zahedi, etc. which is also explained later on in the article. If you think "led by" gives this impression we can perhaps use another term.. maybe "directed", "organized" or "head of"?

Also i don't think its true that the media and academia solely rely on the CIA documents and Roosevelt's book on this topic. For example the NSA's book on the topic (which is an academic book), is very aware of any possible POV in these two sources. When referencing Kermit's book for example, they explicitly state that its "a book to be used with caution" (p. 313). If you look through their reference section you will see that they rely on a very wide range of sources. Also the coup was already very well documented before the leaked CIA documents and Kermit's book. Nevertheless i agree with you that we should include the account of other key players that disagree with the mainstream version, in a section. But we should present the standard version of the events first and foremost. --- Melca 22:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello again, and sorry for my very late reply to your post. I'm glad to see that you agree with the inclusion of views other than the mainly reported version of the events. I also agree that the story which is considered mainstream should be the one receiving more attention in presentation here. So far so good. Can we also agree to work on making statements with a neutral tone? The point is, facts should be presented as they are. What the reader thinks about them is his/her business, and it should be left to the reader to judge the events abd the people involved, based on the information. This would imply making statements in as precise a manner as possible, without too much simplification or generalization.

As an example, the "democratically elected" thing. Mossadegh became prime minister in pretty much the same way as most other prime ministers of the time. Am I right? The standard procedure was that there was some sort of consultation between the Shah and the parliament, and usually the Shah would then suggest a person to the parliament for approval, who would ultimately become prime miniter once the Shah formally agreed to the parliament's vote. This was how Mossadegh became prime miniter as well. Same is true for most of the prime ministers before him. Now, it is true that the process of parliament approval is a largely democratic process, which is still common practice today in many other places, for example England, The Netherlands, and many other constitutional monarchies. But replacing all this with a mere "democratically elected", which to the average reader would imply a direct election, rather than indirect appointment by a parliament which might have been elected long before, is too vague. Mossadegh was not "elected" any differently than those before him. Nevertheless, putting those words right at the beginning would imply such a thing. The special thing about Mossadegh was his extraordinary popularity due to his role in the oil nationalization, not the way that he got to power. There are also other examples where the presentation of the facts could be improved upon.

As for Roosevelt, just as I said, I don't disagree with including his name there. I think, however, that one could better put it somehow along the lines that Zahedi and the people around him were the people carrying out the coup, with the person in charge of the planning at the CIA being Roosevelt, who also presided over the distribution of money etc. among his contacts in Iran.

Let's see how we can make things better. Shervink 13:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)shervink

source?

is there a source for this statement?

"The United States was falsely informed that Mossadegh was increasingly turning towards Communism and was moving Iran towards the Soviet sphere at a time of high Cold War fears."

if no one can come up with a source for it i'm going to take it out. it's one thing for whomever to claim that they were misinformed.... quite another to state it as fact. it's kind of hard to believe the line that the cia, state department etc were unwitting dupes and somehow victims of cold war manipulations. much of the historical evidence points towards the concern in the region was more over independant arab or in this case persian nationalism.

yeah ok i looked this up and the view that the U.S. was duped by british intelligence is interpretive and not a fact.

"ERVAND ABRAHAMIAN: Yes, I think oil is the central issue. But of course this was done at the height of the Cold War, so much of the discourse at the time linked it to the Cold War. I think many liberal historians, including of course Stephen Kinzer's wonderful book here, even though it's very good in dealing with the tragedy of the '53 coup, still puts it in this liberal framework that the tragedy, the original intentions, were benign.--that the U.S. really got into it because of the Cold War and it was hoodwinked into it by the nasty British who of course had oil interests, but the U.S. somehow was different. U.S. Eisenhower's interest, were really anti-communism. I sort of doubt that interpretation. For me, the oil was important both for the United States and for Britain. It's not just the question of oil in Iran. It was a question of control over oil internationally. If Mossadegh had succeeded in nationalizing the British oil industry in Iran, that would have set an example and was seen at that time by the Americans as a threat to U.S. oil interests throughout the world, because other countries would do the same."

what is the source for this?

"Inside Iran, Mossadegh's popularity was eroding as promised reforms failed to materialize and the economy continued to suffer due to heavy British sanctions. The Tudeh Party abandoned its alliance with Mossadegh, as did the conservative clerical factions."

i haven't read any evidence that his popularity ever eroded

___________________________ ""The United States was falsely informed that Mossadegh was increasingly turning towards Communism and was moving Iran towards the Soviet sphere at a time of high Cold War fears."

This jars with me also.

See also... http://www.theglitteringeye.com/?p=1424

Dispute tag

Shervink could you please state here why you put up the dispute tag and what it is specifically you want sourced? --- Melca 22:47, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem is not a shortage of so-called sources. The problem is that the article is totally one-sided, praising Mossadegh out of proportions. The article selectively only picks up a certain point of view on the topic, which is very much disputed, although very loudly present in the bulk of media. Moreover, what you call sources are mostly from media rather than academia, which is not very reliable. Unless the counter arguments (of which I have given you many sources before) are presented in an equal manner (For example by changing words like coup and led by to plot and assited by, or discussing both views at length), I do not see a chance to consider the article neutral. Moreover, factually Mossadegh was in no way differently elected than others. That is a very simple historical fact. He became prime minister only because the Shah, constitutionally, dismissed the previous prime minister, and suggested Mossadegh to parliament instead. Mossadegh never had a problem with getting to power in this manner. How come he had a problem when it was his turn to leave office? I'm not judging his motives or whatever, but stating the words democratically elected here and not in other prime ministers' articles, creates a false impression that for him the procedure was different. Moreover, in its current way it implies, for many readers, a direct election, which is why it is better to mention the exact procedure, i.e. approved by parliament on the Shah's suggestion. It would be more specific and accurate. For a start, can you tell me you opinion on these issues please? Shervink 15:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)shervink

The sources in the article are both from the media and academia. Furthermore Wikipedia does not advocate one over the other as long as they are both published and verifiable [19]. Sources such as the New York Times and the BBC are respected sources and reliable. The BBC for example even admits to have played a role in the coup [20], and uses the words coup and democratically elected explicitly. The CIA has called it a coup and so has Madeline Albright [21]. There can therefore be no doubt that a coup took place. Wikipedia policy states that "Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence" (exceptional claim being that no coup ever took place).

Last but not least Mossadegh was elected differently than others after him, such as his successor Zahedi. The Shah's role before the coup was mostly ceremonial, like the queen in Britain. It was only after the coup that he was granted absolute powers and ruled through a one-party state in autocratic fashion and could thus dismiss prime ministers, at his will, without the consent of the parliament. You can read about this in e.g. these to well researched books [22] [23]. --- Melca 20:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Melca, you should get your facts straight. The one-party system you mention was established only during the last four years of the Shah's rule, more than twenty years after Mossadegh. The Shah constitutionally already had the power to dismiss prime ministers in 1953, and Mossadegh acknowledged that in his memoirs. Also Shapour Bakhtiar, for example, who was a close ally of Mossadegh, in his memoirs only criticizes the disrespectful manner in which Mossadegh was dismissed, but never questions the Shah's legal right to do so. It is true that the Shah changed the constitution after 1953 to get more powers, but dismissal of prime ministers and dissolving parliamnet already were among his rights before that. Mossadegh also acknowledged himself that constitutionally he didn't have the right to dissolve parliament through a referrendum, but that he did not accept those parts of the constitution. Unfortunately the book seems to be out of print, and I don't know of any english translation either. Anyway this is the link, in case you like to search for it yourself [24]. Shervink 10:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)shervink

The main thing is that what you write does not coincide with the two books i referred to. Before the coup, only parliament had the right to fire prime ministers and Kinzer, the author of one of the books, also discusses this in the following interview by Democracy Now [25]. As for mossadeghs memoir i have already commented on that here. But i will try to see if i can digg it up. --- Melca 08:48, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, Kinzer is wrong [26][27][28][29][30][31]. Shervink 05:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)shervink

Well you can believe what you want but Kinzers version of the events is the same as the one reported in the media, which most articles in WP are based on. --- Melca 21:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Most articles in WP are based on the media? I'm sorry but you are terribly wrong. Anyhow, when you use the word media you usually only seem to mean those which you choose to read. Those inconvenient facts which you choose to ignore are somehow magically not included, be they books, articles, interviews, or official documents! I gave you several sources which necessitate a review of the article to make it NPOV.Shervink 23:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)shervink

I have not ignored anything and you should assume good faith. You haven't provided any articles as sources. Your first source is a supposed scan of the former constitution of Iran which is a primary source and is not of much use at WP (see WP's Reliable sources policy). You third source is just an opinion and cant be used as fact, and even states that the 1906 constitution "limited the monarch's powers". You fourth source claims to be from the New York Times but has never been published there and therefore not a valid source, and i have already commented on the last source here. So whats left is an interview of Kashani and a memoir by Zahedi. First of all both their fathers played a key role in overthrowing Mossadegh and were both on the CIA payroll during the coup [32] which im sure you already know. Second Kashani and Zahedi flat out deny that a coup ever took place which puts the word of a small minority against what's been reported in the media and academia. Thats why they are not included in this article and not because they are ignored. --- Melca 22:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• • • • Where do you get the nonsense from, regarding ZAHEDI denying a coup?? He prides himself to have been instrumental in it; however rightfully calls it counter coup, which it obviously was. ZAHEDI was hardly on a CIA payroll, neither was his father, they were immensely rich with realestate alone, worth about a billion dollars in present terms. It is rightout stupid trying to smear these two PATRIOTS with silly unfounded allegations. That goes for all ignorami and wannabes, such as KINZER and the like, and those blindly following suit. General Zahedi may well be called a ruthless dictator with lots of blood on his hands, and his son a squanderer of state money, but both are/were fierce PATRIOTS who simply would not let another great man and PATRIOT, Dr. Muhammad Mossadegh, who also meant well but with sad results, drag the country into an abyss. Why make life miserable for serious editors like SHERVINK?? It makes one sick to see him waste his precious time with people who very obviously have very limited education and whose mental capacity simply does not suffice for putting well researched data into context for an encyclopedia. WIKIPEDIA is increasingly becoming a laughingstock with all sorts of half-wits adding their random hearsay gibberish, just to suit their fancy....Pantherarosa 23:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

In response to Pantherarosa about Zahedi being on the CIA payroll, you may want to read the CIAs own after-action report which was declassified and was the basis for the NY Times article in 2000. On the last page of the CIA reports summary page it states, and I quote:

"In order to give Zahedi badly needed immediate financial assistance so that month-to-month payrolls could be met before the United STates could provide large scale grant aid, CIA covertly made available $5,000,000 within two days of Zahedi's assumption of power." [33]

Now you may wish to claim that Zahedi had some personal wealth at some level or another, but the CIA states clearly that he was given large sums of money immediately after his assumption of power to pay those around him from US (i.e. CIA) moneys until larger direct financial supports could be put in place. It is also without dispute that he was controlled by the CIA, protected by the CIA when it first looked like the plot might not be successful (i.e. when the Shah flew to Rome), etc. Lestatdelc 20:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

You are distorting my assertion! All i tried to make clear was that ZAHEDI did not pocket himself any funds, as many slanderers and hearsay pedlars tried/try to insinuate in numerous publications. Neither during the campaign ousting Mossadegh, nor after having come to power. If you were aware of their family background and their vast wealth, you would not remotely assume any such fabricated nonsense. In addition General Zahedi is known to have been a fierce patriot, loyal to the Iranian cause, irrelevant of the purported iron fist, with which he established a new order after his takeover as Prime Minister. Additionally, ZAHEDI was hardly "controlled" by the CIA either, as some, trying to belittle his role try to make it look like. The CIA was depending on him and his vast influence and popularity, in order to achieve their objectives, which where naturally also ZAHEDI's and the Shah's at the time. Thus he surely played along and utilised the means put up by the CIA/MI6 in order to win the game, which he did eventually. You need to keep in mind that this man had, in very close proximity to the Shah and his father played decisive roles for 4 decades prior to his last calling. His skills at powerplay and his very deeply rooted contacts to all strands of society and especially the semi-feudal TRIBAL system made him the ideal man to bring about the change, the foreign powers were seeking. Had ZAHEDI not shared their interests, he would certainly have neither been asked by them to cooperate, nor have acted against his own patriotic convictions, when playing his decisive part. Pantherarosa 22:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity.. what did he do with the CIA money then? Did he donate it to charity perhaps? --- Melca 07:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I frankly admit , having difficulties to fathom the intellectual depth of this "question". You may wish to note , that ZAHEDI was "on the run" during the coup preparations (since January of 1953), due to a warrant out for him, officially implicating him with the torture death of General Afshartus, the former Police Chief of Tehran. ZAHEDI was alleged to have had him tortured to death as a reprisal for the humiliation suffered due to Afshartus' responsibility for ZAHEDI's preceding brief incarceration on suspicions to foster coup plans (ordered by Mossadegh). Thus having gone underground, ZAHEDI was dependant on funds (1 Million dollars in cash) from third parties, to finance support among loyalists among the tribes as well as urbane folks. The 5 million received as immediate aid from the US government AFTER coming to power were aid funds which were funnelled into the state budget , as can be easily verified. No need for sensation seeking insinuations (i understand that the term "CIA money" awakes fantasies in certain individuals...) that any corruptness in this context had taken place, without a single proof! I repeat, ZAHEDI was known as a PATRIOT and LOYALIST and was himself extremely rich, the corruption allegations could therefore not be more farfetched in nature.Pantherarosa 10:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The job of Wikipedia, and any encyclopedia, is to present the standard version of events first and foremost. The events we're describing are commonly called a "coup". Certainly there are those who don't think it was a coup, or who think "counter-coup" is a better term, and those viewpoints should also be reflected. But they are minority views. The widely-held view, both in the United States and Iran, is that the event was a coup, and so that is the term which we should use. So far as procedure is concerned, we need to restirct ourselves to verifiable information from reliable sources, and to summarize information using the neutral point of view. -Will Beback 00:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

• • • • • A counter coup is CERTAINLY a coup, the term "counter coup" merely adds precision. It is also not a matter of people "thinking" the 19 August 1953 coup having been a counter coup, but rather a matter of historical and political analysis (see above explanation. Even Kermit Rosevelt used the term "counter coup" in his book, which spawned all other accounts to this day. So why go on and on bickering? ). This has very obviously been a counter coup, just as we speak of Hitler having waged a WAR OF AGRESSION, while his opponents were engaged in a war of defence, it was a WAR all over though...Pantherarosa 00:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, so we can say that Kermit Roosevelt called it a "counter coup". There is room for all points of view. -Will Beback 05:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm tired of discussing obvious matters. If two books and several articles and interviews do not qualify as sources in your opinion, then I don't know what to say really. Shervink 14:29, 17 May 2006 (UTC)shervink

Shrevink, if you don't have an actionable objection, you shouldn't be placing dispute tags on articles. It's pretty clear here that a coup took place. Some of your sources are not even published and others only deny that a coup took place because of their own biases. We can fit both points of view into the article, I think, but it would be ridiculous to state what appears to be the minority point of view as the only one. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 17:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say I wanted it to be the only point of view which is included. I'm only saying that it is a significant point of view held by many, and I presented you the sources. If you interpret published sources as unreliable, or want to go about judging the intentions of the writers, I don't mind it, but it would be only speculation. At any rate what I am saying is that the fact that the notion of the coup is disputed should be included with appropriate discussion and sources into the article. Shervink 22:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)shervink

Is it possible to remove shervink from wikipedia? I figure he can probably start up his own wiki with some of his family money, then he can say whatever he wants about Mossadeq. However, he really shouldn't be allowed to undermine an excellent article with his incredibly arrogant and woefully inadequate criticisms.

If you are genuinely interested in contributing to Wikipedia, I suggest you choose a user name and engage constructively in the process, rather than attacking me. Shervink 15:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)shervink

I've also looked at Shervink's sources and I find them all to be either biased, inaplicable, or unreliable. In my opinion Shervink is advocating a minority viewpoint. Perhaps he should express within the article and note it as such, but clearly it is not reasonable to expect this view to be represented equally with generally accepted facts. I feel that this is mostly a well written and informative article and that this whole coup or counter coup thing is pointless. These events are accepted by most sources to have been a coup. What this means is that Mossadeq is accepted to have been the leader of Iran at the time in question, and to have been deposed. The phrase counter-coup implies that Mossadeq deposed the Shah first, which according to the ample scholarship cited in this article, is not what happened. It is of course possible that the concensus of scholarship on this issue is in error, but those who beleive this to be the case are by definition, holders of minority viewpoints. That said, I do think Shervink's views are interesting and should be included (and noted as a minority viewpoint) in the article. This issue is generally seen as the west vs. Iran with the shah on the side of the west. A point of view more sympathetic to the monarchy is rarely heard. Itsafarce 03:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)Itsafarce

Chavez

Who is insulting the name of Dr. Mossadegh with this garbage about Chavez? If I do not see a source, i am removing this section or someone else can do it. Khorshid 09:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I've always been impressed by the overall genuine neutrality of Wikipedia but the last segment comparing Mossaddeq to Chavez is ufnair to Mossaddeq to say the least - it's obviously pro Chavez. I'm by no means a fan of ousting Chavez or our administrations limited tolerance with him, but if you were to listen to some of the thing's he said you would realize that he's about as mature as a 16 year old. It sounds better, or should I say worse?,in spanish.

Agreed. The whole paragraph is shoddy. Specifically:

The CIA has attempted to overthrow Chavez - I can find no reference to this in either the Chavez page or the Venezuela page. This would need to be cited.

Mossadegh genuinely cared about Iran and wanted to use Iran's oil resources to improve the condition of the common Iranian just as Hugo Chavez has wanted to do in Venezuela. This strikes me as pure conjecture. In the spirit of boldness, I'm nixing the section. Feel free to argue otherwise and revert.

Agreed. Making a comparison with another person living in another continent, within another culture and half a century later, who history hasn't weighted yet, is just an opinion not an historical analysis. I vote for deleting this paragraph, it undermines the credibility of the whole article. --Wintermute314 19:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Resolving the Dispute

May I suggest that steps be taken further towards the goal of removing the NPV tag? See Resolving Disputes for details on inviting outside opinions and taking a straw poll. I'd take the initiative myself, but I think it would be more appropriate from someone who has been involved in the discussion already. Schwael 17:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

haha. Or just removing the tag works too.  :) Schwael 15:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Stephen Kinzer

Please can we get away from thinking that Stephen Kinzer is the source above all for affairs regarding Mossadeq? His book is not excellent, it is a screed. He never, never cites his sources, is fast and loose with facts, and has an agenda rivaled only by Mossadeq's himself. Far, far better books and articles on the 1947-1979 era in Iran have been written by Mostafa Elm, Mary Ann Heiss, and S. Marsh. Please read these academic materials when trying to make academic points, and do not use instead journalistic material that only passingly pays tribute to the people who did the real research and the real documentary evidence in the Foreign Relations of the United States and various Foreign Office documents.

Almondwine 05:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree with the comment, Kinzer "never, never cites his sources". The edition of his book I have does indeed include end notes with source citation. I agree that his work is not the most objective, nor definitive work on the subject, but it is not a bad piece of work.

Kirkesque 19:47, 3 Nov 2006 (UTC)

Pro-Shah bias

I sense a serious pro-Shah bias that has sneaked into this article since some edits ago. This is not appropriate or acceptable. Khorshid 09:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Please substantiate your assertion pertinently and conclusively! No sense in posting your "sensations" here.--Pantherarosa 09:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral. Where is your proof for assertion that Mossadegh acted against constitution? Khorshid 03:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

You can read it in his memoirs, "Khaterat va taalomate Dr Mossadegh", where he acknowledges that he did not respect the constitution of the time as legitimate and thus overruled it by organizing a refferendum to dissolve the parliament. That it was the Shah, not Mossadegh, who according to the constitution had the right to dissolve parliament is the simple truth.

[34] [35] [36] [37] Shervink 09:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)shervink

This is interesting, I have never read these before. But if it is complete fact that Mossadegh acted against constitution, why no published books mention this and say only that Mossadegh was within his rights? You see, here is my issue: Shah did not want at first to go against Mossadegh. Correct? he was pushed into the coup plan by his sister Princess Ashraf (who was pro-British), yes? So, why if Mossadegh was going against constitution did Shah resist at first the coup? You can say that Shah did not trust the British (and he was always suspicious of them because of what they did to his father), but still that does not explain it. Also, there is no fact to support the idea that Mossadegh wanted to get rid of monarchy and proclaim Iran as republic. If I am not mistaken from time of exile of Reza Shah to the coup Mohammad Reza was only a figurehead with little political power. Most of power was in Majles. From what I understand Mossadegh did not do anything to change that. Khorshid 04:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi. It is true that the Shah hesitated for a long time before getting involved to remove Mossadegh from premiership. There are certainly a lot of reasons for that, but it does not necessarily mean that the Shah thought he didn't have the right to do it. He probably feared the consequences or symphatized with Mossadegh to some extent, so he hesitated.

It is also true that Mossadegh never wanted to get rid of monarchy, or at least that is what one can conclude based on available sources. Some of his ministers, most notably Dr. Fatemi, however, did want a republic and were very harshly demanding the removal of the Shah. Mossadegh, though a monarchist in essence, was against the "Pahlavi" monarchy. He was a Qajar himself and had never forgiven Reza Shah for changing the royal line from Qajar to Pahlavi. He was an opponent of Reza Shah's ascension to power, as well as most of his reforms and efforts to unite Iran. He was even against Reza Shah's action regarding Sheikh Khazal in Khuzestan, for example. In his interview with the Harvard Iranian oral history project, Dr. Mossadegh's son has said that his father was against everything that Reza Shah did. When asked whether Mossadegh also opposed him in those cases where Reza Shah served Iran's national interests, he said "Yes, even in those cases", stating as reason that Reza Shah should never have de-throned Ahmad Shah Qajar. That was essentially Mossadegh's mentality. He loved Iran and he loved democracy, but above all he could never forgive the Pahlavis. In his memoirs, he never, never, claims that he adhered to the constitution. In fact, he openly says that he didn't think the constitution was legitimate (Khaterat va Taalomate Dr. Mossadegh). He used to cite the "spirit" of the constitution", rather than the "script" of it [38][39]. Besides the fact that one can still verify this by reading the constitution of that time [40][41], this reasoning is also the basis of Ardeshir Zahedi's defence of those events, and his rationale for his and his father's involvement, as evident from pre-published parts of his forthcoming book [42]. In an article, Fereydoun Hoveyda (a long-time Zahedi opponent) states the same, i.e. that Mossadegh was not acting within his constitutional rights [43].

To sum up, there is considerable evidence that Mossadegh knowingly acted against the constitution. Nevertheless, he was a national hero and I wish we had more people like him. What he did he did in good faith and he served the country very much, despite making big mistakes in the last months of his premiership. The evidence for his "unconstitutional" behavior (I'm not saying it was not nationalistic or democratic or whatever), should however be included here, along with the other view (which was established and published mainly in a journalistic rather than scholarly way and getting wide media attention). Shervink 11:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)shervink

Mossadegh did receive a comparatively mild sentence

What is POV about mentioning in a pertinent and sober fashion that Mossadegh's sentencing to 3 years incarceration was comparatively mild, in face of the contemporary MANDATORY DEATH SENTENCE for treason ? It is POV on Khorshid's part to deny it was "comparatively mild"--Pantherarosa 23:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

It is POV because it is not fact that Mossadegh was guilty of treason. As I write above, Shah in the beginning did not even want to go along with the coup and get rid of Mossadegh. Have you read Shah's memoirs? He didn't hate Mossadegh or want to see him executed. Maybe others did, I don't know. But it has never been proved that Mossadegh was guilty of treason. That is a serious accusation to make here! Khorshid 04:20, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Your reasoning is not pertinent! No sense in taking you up on any intelectual subject, as you are driven by emotions, as clearly reflected in your bickering above! It is an established fact that Mossadegh was FOUND GUILTY OF TREASON by the military tribunal, which charged and sentenced him. So don't waste our time with repetitive gibberish to the contrary! When found guilty of treason by a military tribunal, and with laws in place that foresee a death sentence for treason, 3 years in jail can be considered very mild indeed , in comparison.--Pantherarosa 12:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Dude chill. --Spahbod 21:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Two things: First, a sentence delivered by a military tribunal is always prone to be scrutinized and most often invites questioning given the fact that defendants are granted fewer rights than in a normal judicial proceedings. So for anyone to accept Mossadegh's sentencing as fair by virtue of a trial according to due process is a stretch. Second: Mossadegh was condemned to a life sentence in house arrest. 168.187.199.254 11:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)HAF

was he assasinated in 1951? or died in 1967?

A lot of these facts and dates are conflicting.

Yes true, i dunno who put that there, he died of cancer in March 1967. --Spahbod ☼ 02:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually it seems they meant razmara got assasinated. --Spahbod ☼ 02:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Professor Mark Gasiorowski, Professor of Political Science at Louisiana State University is supposedly the most prominent scholar of the 1953 coup. His article “The 1953 Coup d’Etat in Iran” published in 1987 in the International Journal of Middle East Studies might settle som of these disputes. "Just like that How the Mossadegh government was overthrown", another article of his is available at http://www.iranian.com/History/2000/July/Coup/index.html .

Intro

The intro seems technically false. Because he resigned and but was reinstated due to demonstrations (not through the electoral process), his democratic period only lasted through 1952. That doesn't necessarily make his rule any less valid, but it does indicate that "was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran from 1951 to 1953" is false. Unfortunately, it's a bit more complicated to say, "Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran beginning in 1951 and was quickly reappointed to the post after his July 1952 resignation, only to be removed from power in August 1953 by Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran..." but this phrasing has the benefit of being true.

nice article

nice article guys. just easy on the pro-shah/US bias.

Reverted to Old

I reverted the article to a previous and more complete version, because it lacks important details as the period when Mossadegh resigned, and exvhanged for Ahmad Ghavam, and reinstituted due to popular demand.

I suggest leaving this article, and developing it further, rather than giving it major edits just to remove information.

http://www.irvl.net/july_18a.htm http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/biography/

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.247.237.187 (talk • contribs)