Talk:Vladimir Lenin

Lenin and Anti-Semitism

Would the editor who put the tags in the above section like to discuss his motivations in so-doing here on the Talk page? 16:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The reason is simple. Lenin's stance on anti-Semitism is not a notable aspect of his life and there is no controversy on this issue. The entire section should be moved to History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union#Under Lenin (1917-1924). --84.70.147.108 (talk) 23:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

There was massive controversy over the issue. The enemies of the the Bolsheviks - the Whites and the Fascists made great play over what they termed 'Jewish Bolshevism' and the astonishing (for them) spectacle of Jews in power in the Bolshevik government. Hitler invaded the Soviet Union on a crusade against 'Jewish Bolshevism' and killed over 20 million Russians in the process. That is serious. Colin4C (talk) 07:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

But this article is about Lenin's life and work, not about his enemies' racist propaganda. And Hitler invaded the Soviet Union 17 years after Lenin's death. Lenin did not have any notable (for this biography) or controversial views regarding anti-Semitism as he was against all forms of racial discrimination. This section is totally off-topic. --62.136.177.83 (talk) 14:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Lenin's anti-anti-Semitism was controversial as was his Jewish ancestry. Even today Solzhenitsyn, on behalf of the anti-Semitic Eastern Orthodox Church is ranting away about how the Jews should feel guilty for supporting and joining the Bolsheviks. Lenin's hatred of the the Eastern Orthodox church had a lot to do with how the latter supported the pogroms against the Jews by the Black Hundreds. Colin4C (talk) 17:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Lenin's views and actions provoked a lot of things, but what has all this got to do with his life and work? And since when was it "controversial" to oppose anti-Semitism? --84.69.110.10 (talk) 18:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

In Russia it was and is controversial. Before the revolution the Jews were not granted the smallest civil employment, even as postmen. Tsar Nicky hated them and tried to convict one of them for the supposed ritual murder of a child. The Tsarist authorities gave more than a nod and a wink to the pogroms of the Black Hundreds - they actively encouraged them. The Jews were confined to a pale of settlement in the west. The Bolshevik revolution saw a massive change - with Jews employed in the central government. The reactionary Whites saw this as almost the end of the world, but in line with the prophecies of the fraudulent Protocals of the Elders of Zion which asserted that the Jews were going to take over the world. To cope with this nightmare situation the White Armies indulged in indiscriminate genocide of Jewish men, women and children. A good job they didn't win the Civil war basically because they were ahead of Hitler in the anti-Semitic game. But even in Soviet Russia anti-Semitism has persisted - to the present day. Lenin's thoughts on the matter of anti-Semitism - which he recorded on a gramophone record - were concealed. Basically the mainstream thought that being pro-Jewish (like Lenin) or having a Jewish ancestry (like Lenin) was disgraceful and had to be hidden away like a terrible secret. Colin4C (talk) 19:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

This is all very well Colin, but this has got nothing to do with Lenin's life and work. Why not have a section called "Lenin's stance on the Working Class" or "Lenin's stance on monarchism", etc? We could go on forever. --84.69.110.10 (talk) 19:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you want to remove this section because it reveals Lenin in a good light? I.e. not the demonic hate figure of contemporary American propaganda? Colin4C (talk) 16:32, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Please assume good faith, I happen to be a Leninist. This stance is not a notable part of Lenin's life and work. He had many more notable stances which are not included in this biography. --84.66.28.123 (talk) 16:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I beg to differ comrade. IMHO Tsarist/White Russia was well on the way to its own version of Hitlerite Fascism. Vis the sickening pogroms, the accusations of ritual murder directed at the Jews and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion forged by the Secret Police. If it hadn't been for Lenin and the Bolsheviks I think the Holocaust would have started in Russia rather than Germany. The White forces' genocide of Jewish men, women and children in the Civil War was only halted by the victory of Lenin and the Bolsheviks. Lenin stopped this Fascist trend in its tracks, and we should thank him for that, if nothing else. Colin4C (talk) 19:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I hear what you say, but again this does not conform to biographical standards. This is a specific issue of Jewish history, not of Lenin's life. There were far more significant events affecting Russia after 1917, and it is a given that a communist should be opposed to all forms of racism. --84.68.245.219 (talk) 01:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I've made the title more relevant to the historical context. --90.240.236.150 (talk) 13:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

1. I agree with 84.68.245.219 above about the overall relevance of this topic to this particular article. A separate article may be more appropriate. 2. The word "emancipation" is inaccurate and inappropriate. It smacks of non-NPOV. More importantly it is inapplicable here - to emancipate means to free from slavery, bondage, etc. While Lenin might have been anti-anti-Semitic he did not free the Russian Jews from slavery, lead them out of Egypt or anything like that. Hence "Lenin's opposition to antisemitism" would be better... 3. except that the body of the text does not unambiguously support even that phrasing with references to some historians viewing Lenin's record in this matter as "highly uneven", admission that the Red Army also carried out pogroms and so on. 4. The tag to "anarchists" in this section links to Nestor Makhno. It's been awhile since I did the reading but I was under the impression that the allegations against Makhno were unsupported and essentially a product of Bolshevik propaganda. Makhno himself, once in exile bitterly denied any antisemitism on his own part or that his men carried pogroms. Someone with more knowledge here should comment. As this is also a kind of thing that can make the article grow unnecessarily it is also a good illustration as to why this whole section should essentially be its own article, per #1 above.radek (talk) 20:52, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The 'reasons that this section should have its own article' are mostly POV also, in that it suits American anti-Communists to portray Lenin as 'Mr Satan'. Therefore any info which contradicts the American Party Line has to be deleted from History and wikipedia readers brainwashed into believing that Lenin never did anything just or right. By the way the bit about the Red Army conducting pogroms comes from a very biased anti-Leninist source. People just don't want to admit that their White 'freedom fighter' heroes got their kicks from murdering, torturing and raping thousands of Jewish men, women and children and that the beloved Tsar Nicky tried to get a Jew convicted for 'ritual murder' of a child and that the Eastern Orthodox church gave whole-hearted support to the Black Hundred pogroms of Jews. If the Whites had won they would have murdered, tortured and raped a whole lot more Jews and pre-empted Hitler. The Whites were murdering fascist scumbags. Lenin (plus, the Jew, Trotsky) stopped them in their tracks. Good for him. Colin4C (talk) 21:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The reasons why this section should be its own article are simply that this particular issue is a fairly minor one in relation to Lenin's overall impact and life. That's it. You are making up reasons, attempting a mind reading pretty much, of why some editors feel differently than you do. This goes against Wiki's 'assume good faith' policy and is implicitly insulting to others. I don't know what the "American Party Line" is. I also don't know what would've happened if the Whites had won, and Wiki is not a place to speculate about that. Try one of the 'alternate history' website. The second half of your rant pretty much constitutes Original Research (actually, not even that - more like Original Speculation) and as such is not a sufficient basis for including this section in this article. As an aside, you should keep in mind that the "Whites", while they did include "murdering fascist scumbags", did also include non-Bolshevik socialists, anarchist, democrats and other non-fascists. It appears, if you allow me to do a bit of mind reading of my own, that in your attempt to ascribe a black and white worldview to others ("American anti-communists" or whoever) you seem to hold just such a view yourself. And seriously, find me someone, outside of Russia, who finds Tsar Nicky "beloved". What are you talking about?

For now however, I am merely objecting to the use of the word "emancipation" as it is clearly inappropriate, inaccurate and hyperbolic.radek (talk) 00:44, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

You have just deleted the whole section! Why are you deliberately misleading us here about your intentions? And who gave you the right to mass delete material against concensus? Colin4C (talk) 07:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The section was deleted per user 84.70.147.108's comments above. Since I stated at the outset that I agreed with his comments I don't see any "misleading" here, deliberate or not.radek (talk) 20:13, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

On repeated attempts to catgeorize Lenin as a Jew

An editor has repeatedly attempted to argue that Lenin was a Jew by analogy with Harrison Ford.

Ford is recognized as a Jew because his mother was a Jew. On the other hand, Maria Ulyanova was not a Jew — her mother was not a Jew, nor was Maria a convert to Judaism. The fact tha Maria's father was a Jew (by way of matrilineal descent) doesn't change that.

Someone might object that “Jew” ought to be defined so that partrilineal descent and matrilineal descent counted equally, but saying (or even somehow proving) that things ought to be some way doesn't make them so. —SlamDiego_←T 21:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

No biographical reliable sources consider Lenin to have been Jewish. We go by what reliable sources say. There is mention of his Jewish ancestry in some reliable sources, but that is quite different from categorizing him as Jewish. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 21:58, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

No reliable sources consider him Jewish because he just doesn't fit an ordinary definition of “Jew” — he doesn't actually have unbroken matrilineal descent, and he wasn't a convert to Judaism. —SlamDiego_←T 23:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

"No reliable sources" well that's a lie revert this all you want it's vandalism and you all know it. --Blackeagles (talk) 00:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

If you produced a reliable source, that would immediately prove the claim that there were none were untrue. Again, for Lenin to be a Jew, he would either have had to have been a convert, or born to a Jewish mother. He wasn't a convert. For his mother to be a Jew, she would either to have been a convert or born to a Jewish mother; she wasn't a convert, and she wasn't born to a Jewish mother. The fact that her father was a Jew doesn't change that.

As to reverting, I feel no need to revert, as others are correcting your repeated damage. I just wanted to ensure that the issue were clearly and explicitly explained on the talk page, so that your persistence would either end or be shown to be in bad faith. —SlamDiego_←T 01:37, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Cause of death disputed?

This article is in the category "Cause of death disputed", but the article doesn't appear to mention what the dispute is, if there is in fact any. Should it be removed from this category, or is there a legitimate dispute about the cause of death that should be mentioned? norm77 (talk) 21:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Vladimir Iljits Uljanin

His father was Mordvin from one of Mordvin Uljanin villages. When moved to Simbirsk changed his name to Uljanoff. His mother was Volga German with fixed Kalmuk and Swedish roots. Where are the Jewish roots? Please do not try to make Jew of him in every corner. Thanks. This is proved in his own words to his friend Oskar Enberg who spend the exile time with him in the same village when both were deported to exile near Krasnojarsk in Siberia. This is well known in many written Finnish sources. Oskar held even the Orthodox wedding crown above Krupskaja´s head in their wedding seremony and later Krupskaja´s mother noted in her diary, "Oskar with his spendind sence of humor safed the whole ceremony to be a wedding instead of funerals." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.197.222 (talk) 11:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

German Trains on Time

Pure nonsence that the German trains, despite on going World War in 1917, did not run on time. About 90 per cent run on time. The sealed train carrying Uljanin and his croup through Germany was ahead of its scheduled time when arriving to Sassnitz. The passenger coach where Uljanin travelled had its doors locked inside Germany. When pulled into Sassnitz - Trelleborg train ferry its doors were opened. In Sweden Uljanin´s coach was coupled onto ordinary Trelleborg - Malmö - Stockholm express train. North of Stockholm to Haparanda he travelled on Stockholm - Haparanda ordinary express train. In The Grand Duchy of Finland over journey from Tornio to Valkeasaari (Beloostrov) (- Petrograd) he travelled in ordinary express train, having meal in the evening on restaurant car between Kemi and Oulu. Next morning he had his breakfast between Haapamäki and Tampere and made public speech at Riihimäki junction station. The last 41 km the Tornio - Petrograd express train (with Finnish locomotive and rolling stock) run over the Russian soil through North Ingermanland. The American built 4-6-0 locomotive, Finland´s State Railways Nr. 293 (Richmond Works 2991 / 1900) hauling the express train from Viipuri to Petrograd was driven by locomotive driver Hugo Jalava who helped also later Uljanin out from Petrograd, arrived even on time (do you want the scheduled arriving time?) to Finland Station in Petrograd where Uljanin made his speech to Petrograder. He was helped to the roof of then few running cab automobiles outside station building. In fact, this locomotive was presented after receiving full repairs at Hyvinkää Works in 1957 to Soviet Union and is still preserved at St.Petersburg Finlandski Vokzal. Pehaps it is better to trust the people who eye-witnessed the whole episode than to the myths which appeared later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.197.222 (talk) 13:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Recurrent vandalism and edit warring

User 84.69.119.254 (and other associated ip addresses), you're in violation of the 3RR. Furthermore, your use of multiple, anonymous, IP addresses constitutes sock puppetry. On top of that you have made personal insults when making some of the changes. You also have tried to disguise your edits - changing "Lenin's stance on anti-Semitism" to "Lenin's emancipation of the Jews" - by acting like you're making non controversial edits in other parts of the article. Strangely enough, right before you revert the article somehow manages to get vandalized by anonymous users with an UK ip address just by coincidence and then you claim to revert vandalism when in fact you're actually reverting non-vandalism edits you don't like. I know, I know, I should assume good faith, but you've pretty much eroded that. As I stated above, I actually think the whole relevant section belongs in a separate article but in the spirit of compromise have left it in and merely changed the title to something NPOV and less hyperbolic. Since you continue to engage in uncooperative behavior however, I see no reason to continue in being nice. If you keep reverting I will simply remove the section, per tag. And no, you did not change the title to something "more historically accurate". You changed it to something blatantly POV. I would also be quite happy to have an administrator look at this matter and even lock down this page if this continues.radek (talk) 16:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I cannot cooperate with someone who is incapable of accepting the overwhelming evidence. You are the vandal here, and your reactionary Polish nationalist sympathies are plain for all to see. --84.68.92.208 (talk) 17:36, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

What the hey are you talking about? radek (talk) 18:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Mass deletions

I have just restored all the material Radek has mass deleted without warning:

"Lenin's emancipation of the Jews The chaotic years of World War I, the February and October Revolutions, and the Civil War were fertile ground for the antisemitism that was endemic to tsarist Russia. During the war, Jews were accused of sympathizing with Germany and often persecuted. Russian anti-semitism continued even after the lifting of official anti-Jewish restrictions by the February regime and the Bolsheviks. Pogroms were unleashed throughout the Civil War, perpetrated by virtually every competing faction, from anarchists, to Polish and Ukrainian nationalists to the Red and White Armies. Continuing the policy of the Bolsheviks before the Revolution, Lenin and the Bolshevik Party strongly condemned the pogroms, including official denunciations in 1918 by the Council of People's Commissars. Opposition to the pogroms and to manifestations of Russian anti-semitism in this era were complicated by both the official bolshevik policy of assimilationism towards all national and religious minorities, and concerns about overemphasizing Jewish concerns for fear of exacerbating popular anti-semitism, as the White forces were openly identifying the Bolshevik regime with Jews.

Lenin was intrigued with technology and in 1919 recorded eight of his speeches on gramophone records. Seven were later re-recorded and put on sale in the Khrushchev era. Significantly the one which was suppressed outlined Lenin’s feelings on anti-Semitism:

Lenin standing in the courtyard of the Kremlin in 1919.

“ The Tsarist police, in alliance with the landowners and the capitalists, organized pogroms against the Jews. The landowners and capitalists tried to divert the hatred of the workers and peasants who were tortured by want against the Jews. … Only the most ignorant and downtrodden people can believe the lies and slander that are spread about the Jews. … It is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people. The enemies of the workers are the capitalists of all countries. Among the Jews there are working people, and they form the majority. They are our brothers, who, like us, are oppressed by capital; they are our comrades in the struggle for socialism. Among the Jews there are kulaks, exploiters and capitalists, just as there are among the Russians, and among people of all nations… Rich Jews, like rich Russians, and the rich in all countries, are in alliance to oppress, crush, rob and disunite the workers… Shame on accursed Tsarism which tortured and persecuted the Jews. Shame on those who foment hatred towards the Jews, who foment hatred towards other nations. ”

Lenin was supported by the Labour Zionist (Poalei Zion) movement, then under the leadership of Marxist theorist Ber Borochov, which was fighting for the creation of a Jewish workers' state in Palestine and also participated in the October Revolution (and in the Soviet political scene afterwards until being banned by Stalin in 1928). While Lenin remained opposed to outward forms of anti-semitism (and all forms of racism), allowing Jewish people to rise to the highest offices in both party and state, certain historians such as Dmitri Volkogonov argue that the record of his government in this regard was highly uneven. A former official Soviet historian turned staunch anti-communist, Volkogonov claims that Lenin was aware of pogroms carried out by units of the Red Army during the war with Poland, though the whole issue was effectively ignored. Volkogonov writes that “While condemning anti-Semitism in general, Lenin was unable to analyze, let alone eradicate, its prevalence in Soviet society”. Likewise, the hostility of the Soviet regime towards all religion made no exception for Judaism, and the 1921 campaign against religion saw the seizure of many synagogues (whether this should be regarded as anti-Semitism is a matter of definition since Orthodox churches received the same treatment).

However, according to Jewish historian Zvi Gitelman: “Never before in Russian history — and never subsequently has a government made such an effort to uproot and stamp out anti-Semitism”."

Do other editors here agree? Colin4C (talk) 07:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I gave warning. There has been consensus to delete it previously, yourself excluded of course. And the material duplicates, word for word, that found in History of the Jews in Russia. If you want to put in a few sentences on the subject somewhere in the article and direct readers to History of the Jews in Russia then please go ahead.radek (talk) 13:15, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

That is just plain incorrect. There is no concensus to delete it. Or do you think one editor putting a tag on something is an indication of a concensus? Colin4C (talk) 19:04, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

You and your sock puppets seem to be the only objectors. I would quite welcome the input of other editors and administrators on this issue as I'm getting tired of reverting your vandalisms. The material may be sourced but it is also a word for word duplicate of that found in History of the Jews in Russia where in fact it properly belongs. As I've indicated above, if you want to have a sentence or two somewhere in the body of this article along with a "see also: History of the Jews in Russia" that would be fine. As others (including Lenin's sympathizers) have noted above however, in THIS particular article this topic is given undue attention. And this isn't even to mention that the word "emancipation", as I've stated before, is incorrect just from the point of view of the English language (I'm assuming you speak it well enough, if not, my apologies - it's still incorrect however).radek (talk) 20:03, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I am reporting you to the admins forthwith unless you withdraw that personal attack and untrue statement now. A vandal is someone who deletes valid referenced material against concensus and thoughtlessly trashes other editors hard work. In those terms you are the vandal, not me. I am restoring the valid NPOV referenced material right now. Selectively deleting all the material in the article which shows Lenin in a good light, and then hiving it off into a subsidiary article, is an incredibly disingenuous way to high-light a conservative 'killer-demon' picture of Lenin. Basically it is just plain POV. Over the past two years I have made many positive contributions to this article and am a serious student of the subject and longstanding editor here who has been praised for many of the articles I have contributed to. Your only 'contribution' so far is to indulge in mass deletions and engage in untrue personal attacks on other editors. Can an admin sort this guy out? Colin4C (talk) 07:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Colin, in the light of your numerous personal insults (most of them in Edit summaries, not on this talk page) and your consistent failure to Wikipedia:Assume good faith on my part, your complaining about my calling your edits vandalism is absurd. Furthermore, I have explained my edits on this talk page numerous times. You have not explained yours, but rather have questioned my motivations and imagined my "ideology". My reasons for removing the material are pretty much the same as those indicated above by other users. Additionally, once again, allow me to point out that the relevant portion is a *word for word copy* of material found at History of the Jews in Russia - an issue which you have not addressed even once. You have also repeatedly removed a 'merge' tag placed there by myself and other editors, which constitutes a clear case of vandalism. I have already contacted an administrator and requested a third opinion.radek (talk) 15:17, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Here is such an example of a bad faith lie:

• (1)"You and your sock puppets seem to be the only objectors." (Radek)

Here is another lie:

• (2) "You have also repeatedly removed a 'merge' tag placed there by myself and other editors". (Radek)

A third example of a bad faith lie is:

• (3) "There has been consensus to delete it previously". (Radek)

But maybe truth doesn't matter to you? Just POV pushing, wikilawyering and harassing and personally attacking good faith, constructive editors who know something about the subject? Once you have got rid of them you will be free to spread your anti-Leninist hate campaign POV to the benighted multitude without hinderance and get your Ronald Reagan anti-Communist of the year award whilst making love to your Margaret Thatcher rubber doll. Colin4C (talk) 22:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Please. Continue.radek (talk) 23:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC) And just so it doesn't get lost in the internet ether, here are Colin's previous comments, which he chose to edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Vladimir_Lenin&direction=prev&oldid=237598064 Apparently he thought bringing a M.Thatcher rubber doll into this discussion was more appropriate and mature than accusing me of helping Stalin with the Doctor's Plot. I really don't know what to say, except to reiterate my comment above: What the hey are you talking about?radek (talk) 23:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

But you still haven't answered me why you have a compulsion to lie in order to make your points rather than engaging in rational discourse. Viz:

• LIE 1: "You and your sock puppets seem to be the only objectors." (Radek)
• LIE 2: "You have also repeatedly removed a 'merge' tag placed there by myself and other editors". (Radek)
• LIE 3: "There has been consensus to delete it previously". (Radek)

Why did you tell these un-truths? Are you a compulsive fantasist who cannot tell reality from fantasy? Do you think for instance that one editor (you) equals a 'consensus'? You are certainly an expert wikilawyer, even if you have yet to make one constructive contribution to this article and have rather spent your time deleting and blind reverting most of the constructive contributions by other editors here in the past two weeks. Have you got anything to say about Lenin? Do you know anything at all about him at all? If so, please contribute rather than engaging in personal abuse and blind reverts in pursuit of your POV pushing agenda. Colin4C (talk) 00:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Colin4C (talk) 00:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

More Lies and harassment

RADEK: "Hi, I assume you protected the Lenin page at the request of user Colin4C. This is fine and all, since it's about time an administrator got involved in this revert war. However please note that the text that user Colin4C (and his numerous anonymous ip sock puppets)

COLIN:[LIE - I have no 'sockpuppets']

objects to being removed is a word for word duplicate of that in History of the Jews in Russia RADEK: article. Furthermore, the title of the sub section that Colin4C chooses to use is POV and inaccurate.

COLIN:[LIE - I did not choose this title, but restored a block of material which was mass deleted by Radek. I restored all of it, including the title, which I am indifferent about).

RADEK:Before deleting the relevant portion of the article or changing the title of the subsection I brought it up on the talk page and explained the reasons. To this user Colin4C has not responded directly, rather preferring to engage in insults and conjectures about my motives (some of the worst insults were not on the talk page but rather when he was reverting the page - as page history can show).

COLIN: [Wikilawyering...and personal harassment rather than addressing issues about Lenin's attitude to Anti-Semitism]

RADEK: Through out all this I have tried to be civil and courteous and even suggested how the topic - if not the word for word copy of the material - can be included. Colin4C has been completely uncooperative, rude and failing to assume good faith. So while I'm fine with the article being protected - as it always should be when a revert war is happening - I want to request input from others, particularly an administrator such as yourself to put an end to this silliness, before the protection tag expires.

COLIN: [LIE - you called me a 'sockpuppet' and a 'vandal'...very 'courteous' I don't say...]

RADEK: Thank you very much.radek" Colin4C (talk) 00:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)