Talk:Eurovision Song Contest

See also Wikipedia:WikiProject Eurovision.

Let's make this a Featured Article

I have been informed that articles going over 30k are fine, and it is not a barrier to achieving Featured status. Please participate in the Peer Review (as linked at the top of this talk page) and let me know your suggestions. Ten heads are better than one.. so you might notice some obvious mistake or omission which passed me by! EuroSong ^talk 03:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Left on a contributor's talk page - copied here for others' reference

Featured Articles have a certain number of guidelines. One such guideline is that mentioning relative time differences should be minimised. So for example, to talk about "next year's Contest" when referring to Eurovision 2007, makes it clear that the text was written in 2006. That means, this text will become out-of-date next year. The best articles should not do this: they should be static information, which will be true for as long as possible. It is even borderline, to mention such things as "As of 2006, the country who has entered the longest with no wins to their name is Portugal." - because who knows? Portugal might win next year*; rendering the article out-of-date. It is also not a good thing to mention the 2007 participants, Czech Republic and Georgia, as if they have actually made their debut. The 2007 Contest has not happened yet. This information is speculative and subject to change. In fact I seem to remember some news about the Czech Republic intending to enter one year recently - but then they changed their mind and decided not to. Such information should not be included in the article until the end of the three minutes of those debut countries' songs - because up until then, anything can happen which might mean their participation is cancelled! EuroSong ^talk 21:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

* Yeah, right

---

Okay, we got it Featured :)

Remaining points to consider, as of now, are:

• Can we find a better image than the plain generic logo?
• Can we set some criteria for successful artists' inclusion in the list in the "Winning artists" section?

Hopefully we can get this on the main page on the date of the 2007 Contest. EuroSong ^talk 23:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Changed info on origin of name

I've changed this statement:

The name "Eurovision" was first used by British journalist George Campey in the London Evening Standard in 1951, where he dubbed the Contest "Eurovision Grand Prix".

for two reasons:

• It says he gave the contest that name in 1951, however the contest was not even conceived until 1955.
• The reference link that was provided said that he gave the name 'Eurovision' to the Eurovision Network only, not the contest.

If anyone can prove me wrong, feel free to add that back to the article and leave a note here. Thanks! --Lewis R « т · c » 21:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

You're quite right. I can't believe I let that one pass me by! Of course, what I meant to say is just that the name "Eurovision" was first used in relation to the network in 1951 - and then the name for the network was adopted by the Contest when it came to pass in 1956. Of course, the wording before says that he actually dubbed the ESC with the name Eurovision. That is indeed incorrect, as can be seen from the reference. Thank you very much for pointing this out: I appreciate it. I have now re-added the information, but in the correct context. Now it is mentioned alongside the first mention of the Eurovision Network, and not as a reference to the Contest actually being named as such by the journalist. Thanks! EuroSong ^talk 21:57, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The Contest in popular culture

This was an interesting and growing section. Is there merit in restoring this as a separate page?

I'm not sure, really. It might be considered non-encyclopædic, to have a whole separate article just on "The Eurovision Song Contest in popular culture". On the other hand, I can tell you one thing: interesting and amusing though the section was, it does not belong in this article. Such lists are rarely encyclopædic; and on the occasions that they are, they need to be exhaustive and definitive. The ESC has been mentioned so often, and in so many contexts, that making a definitive list would be impossible (and far too long even if it were possible). Besides, the list which existed before had a heavy Anglophone slant to it — there were only two references to the Contest which did not originate from the English-speaking entertainment media. Although this article is written in English, on the English-language Wikipedia, Eurovision is an international topic and equal weight should be given to its influence in all countries. If you do think you can come up with an exhaustive, encyclopædic, and non-Anglophone-biased list of references to the Contest in popular culture - and then write a separate article about it - then I wish you the best of luck! :) EuroSong ^talk 07:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be impossible to come up with an exhaustive list, any more than it would be possible to come up with an exhaustive list for Leprechauns in popular culture, Nuclear weapons in popular culture or any other other of "in popular culture" articles on Wikipedia . A "Eurovision Song Contest in popular culture" article would be in the same spirit. Dbromage

Voting patterns

This is one of the most noticeable and might I say, notorious aspects of eurovision. Why isnt there a mention of the effects of neighbor voting, ethnically related countries voting for each other (greece/cyprus, Romania/moldova), minority voting (albanians in macedonia/turks in germany/russians in the baltic states) and so on?

There is a mention. It's under the "Criticisms" section. There is even a reference made to a document which discusses the neighbourly voting patterns - and another reference made to a document which explains the reasons why neighbourly voting occurs. Did you not read it? :) EuroSong ^talk 18:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

See - that's what I said. People won't be reading the entire article on once sitting. People go to WP for a quick reference check or to get some "infotainment", you can't force them to read that end-to-end. This is why I think the voting patterns sections should go with the general voting section :D Regards, Bravada, talk - 19:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Hehe.. I do see your point. But if I moved the "political voting" paragraph to the "voting" section, then what of the criticism of the music? It would be sitting alone in its own section, which would not really be suitable. Also there is no other section with which to merge it. I have already stated my reasons for not including a whole separate section discussing musical styles. Would you then suggest I removed it altogether? That could possibly be done: but then I might be accused of being POV, in the sense that the entire article includes no mention of the criticisms levelled at the Contest's music whatsoever: something which is associated with the Contest in many people's eyes. What do you think? Is the article better as it is now, or would it not matter if the musical criticisms were removed and the voting criticism merged with the voting section? Like you, I am also "too involved" in the article to judge this objectively. Perhaps.. EuroSong ^talk 20:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

To answer in short - no, I think you might reconsider your stance on the section regarding musical/performance style and perhaps team up with some other editors interesting in music/performing arts to help develop it further. Moreover, as a stopgap measure it wouldn't be wrong to have a section entitled simply "Criticism of musical styles and presentation", which would later be developed into a section highlighting not only criticism.

Some projects I think it would be good to pester: Music, Music genres, Songs, Dance. Perhaps this is not within the scope of the projects themselves, but there might be some brave souls willing to take up the challenge - writing about music can be fun, even if you don't like it. Unfortunately, WikiProject Writing about music is inactive, perhaps because there was only one username ever on the participants' list, and that's only for a day (!) Also I would try to mobilize the fellow members of our own WikiProject Eurovision - what we need is all kinds of write-ups on Eurovision music, more or less NPOV (you can always elicit some information from a POV text) to compose something from. I will also try to dig out something whenever I find time... Bravada, talk - 20:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Successful artists

I completely forgot about that, I should've brought that out earlier, but this is actually fairly important - some good criteria need to be set for the inclusion in the list. I am not into the "golden record" or chart things, but I believe some sensible criteria can be established - and then all potential winners should be checked against that. That said, I would rather the criteria would automatically exclude winners from, say, 5 last years, because I believe only enduring success is worth recognition - many artists rode on a short wave of popularity of their ESC entry, but it quickly faded away. Bravada, talk - 00:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments: I totally agree. I can't believe that I myself didn't think about that list more carefully when I reviewed the article. The list was originally written from what my personal feelings were about the success of the artists, but it excluded Ruslana (from whom I have never heard in any other non-Eurovision context). Then someone else added Ruslana, and I thought "okay then - she must be more successful than I knew". But yes, I sort-of agree with you about excluding recent winners. The thing is, it's hard to define such criteria for inclusion into the list. The criterion for the list I originally made was: "Have I personally heard of this artist's success" independently of the Contest?" With such singers as Nicole and Johnny Logan, I have heard of them commercially (and I am not a person who pays a lot of attention to the non-Eurovision commercial music scene!) separate from my own interests in Eurovision. With artists such as Eimear Quinn and Charlotte Nilsson (whose success has, I believe, only been in Scandinavia and only riding on her Eurovision win), I have not. But my own personal "having heard of" criterion is, in retrospect, not a very scientific way of judging these things :) The problem is: what criteria should we use? I have a mild temptation to remove that list altogether, but don't really want to because I believe it is important to mention at least some artists whose careers have been successful following their Eurovision win. EuroSong ^talk 07:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Since it seems we both don't we have a good idea for the criterium, I guess you could ask at the music-related WikiProjects - I believe they might have had to deal with similar issues before. Bravada, talk - 11:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but Ruslana isn't famous! Why Helena is deleted?--Chronisgr 22:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you tell me how her Helena's has taken off after her Eurovision win? Does she have a lot more success now than she already did with Antique? EuroSong ^talk 22:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes she has more success than she had with Antique(that was the reason they split up). Helena is the only winner of the last years that made a hit in Europe after her victory in Eurovision. Actually Mambo seems to be more successful in Airplay Charts around Europe than My Number One.Also My Number One entered at 45 in Billboard Hot Dance Charts and the single will be released this Tuesday in the US. --Chronisgr 11:32, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

We need to establish some rules here FAST! People keep adding whoever to the list, it is now quite contradictory to what the article says, as it seems that almost EVERYBODY achieved great international success after their win! Bravada, talk - 08:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we do. Thing is, what rules? I could decide some arbritarily, but that would just be me. I had a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians, but I don't really see how I can just ask the members there for opinions on how to make criteria for this list. For now, I have done the following:

• Removed the recent additions
• Excluded artists from the past 5 years, as per your suggestion
• Put each artist on a separate line in the source (doesn't affect the display, but makes it easier to see and edit)
• Added a comment asking people to discuss additions on the talk page before editing.

It's not perfect, but hopefully it can stem the tide until we think of something else. EuroSong ^talk 09:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Maps

The maps need to be changed, especially the first one. There should be more countries in yellow (active members, e.g. Egypt), but they can't even be seen on the map, let alone coloured. Also the map contradicts with the article: Tunisia in the Eurovision Song Contest. While on the subject of images, instead of having a picture from Congratulations (as that wasn't actually a Eurovision Song Contest), why not have a picture of the logo being unveiled, such as the top right image on this page: [1]. RedvBlue 11:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• Do you have a map which includes Egypt?
• The information on Tunisia is unreferenced: the 50^th anniversaty book doesn't mention it, and a Google search only returns Wikipedia-based sources, and ONE from ESCtoday - and I'm not happy about including such information based upon only one reference. Can you find another one maybe? - Actually I did just find a good reference here. Thanks: I shall include this information when we can get a better map.
• The unveiling of the logo image looks quite nice: but what about licensing, I wonder. We might have to ask www.eurovision.tv if we could use it.

Thank you for your suggestions. EuroSong ^talk 13:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

What on earth is "Eurovision Week" doing in this article?

This section has no relevance or interest to anyone outside the small coterie of fans attending the event, why is it taking up precious space in the article?

The information is interesting, encyclopædic and properly referenced. If you think it has "no interest to anyone not attending", then perhaps you should check out the article's Peer Review, where it was mentioned that this section was of great interest – by someone who had never been to the Contest. This article is about the Eurovision Song Contest. That means that if it's to be a good quality encyclopædic article, it needs to cover all aspects of the Contest: not just to mention how it it shown as a television programme. EuroSong ^talk 07:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Coded phrases

I think that you should use coded phrases in your competition. I mean that you can decide what every phrase must content something special. You can decide modulation, tact and other things - just to make sure that it was the right composer that composed and no one else. I also think that you should make other rules about "WINNING". I mean action on scen is something else than the song that is performed. Performing can also be divided into different tasks 1) singing 2) dancing 3) how the actors are dressed 4) What happens on stage? can you winn just by performing a show? 5) how the music is played instrumentally.

Eva Kristina Jonsson Tegelgatan 7 716 30 Fjugesta

Sweden —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.20.61.66 (talk) 12:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

Countries that have never entered Eurovision

The countries that have never entered Eurovision, although they could if they wanted to, are the Czech Republic and Georgia in Europe, Algeria and Tunisia in Africa, and Lebanon in the Middle East. Lebanon was already planning on entering in 2005 but withdrew. This list should be mentioned in the article somewhere. JIP | Talk 11:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The Lebanon issue is mentioned in the article already. EuroSong ^talk 19:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but are the other four countries mentioned anywhere? JIP | Talk 06:26, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Czech Rep and Georgia are entering in 2007... Celticfan383

Isn't this list (which now includes nine countries supposedly elegible for entry in the contest) somewhat ambiguous? It's already explained in the same section that geographic location or EU membership has nothing to do with a country's qualification to enter. Technically (assuming that this is true) we could list every known country in the world in this paragraph, but it might be easier just to remove it altogether or just list the actual European countries that have never participated. ~~ Peteb16 14:08, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Not every country in the world would be mentioned. It's about the country having a broadcaster which is an Active Member of the EBU, and is in the European Broadcasting Area (not the same thing as geographical Europe). Read the article - eligibility is explained in detail :) EuroSong ^talk 17:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. :) ~~ Peteb16 17:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The European Broadcast area includes Palestine ( unless I'm missing something ) but the accompanying map doesn't. Shouldn't it?Skopelos-Slim 09:11, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The map is not one of the European Broadcasting Area: it is one of the eligible countries. Not all countries in the EBA are eligible: they must have a broadcaster which is a member of the EBU. See the page here. Palestine does not have an EBU member. Actually, there are countries in North Africa which should be on the map, but which are not... because I can't find a good enough suitable map EuroSong ^talk 13:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, what about the Vatican? It's a sovereign country, innit? But is it a member of the EBU? JIP | Talk 07:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

First, i saw this article and thaught that "Well, There must be some standard infobox for this (type of) music event. When i searched around and found out that there weren't any "music event" infoboxes at all, i made a dedicated ESC infobox. I later changed the name of the infobox to Infobox song competition, and removed the EBU logo.

People should remember that the purpose of infoboxes is primarily to give a quick overview of the company/organisation/annual event ect. - And not necessarily "infobox exclusive" GDPs and numbers.

A single, frames low-res jpeg logo in the right of the main article of this vast project was a little odd introduction, I think.

Please accept and IMPROVE this the infobox because the annual music event of Eurosong is such a typical infobox-article. Ssolbergj 19:58, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I like this addition. The infobox could be used in many different song competition articles. Nice. --Bob 20:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The infobox is ugly, unnecessary and adds nothing to the article. I also dislike Ssolbergj's edit warring. EuroSong ^talk 21:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

There is obviously a disagreement here that needs to be resolved. No more edits should now occur involving the infobox until a concensus has been set up to gauge general opinion. A decision should then be made based on the concensus rather than two peoples conflicting opinions. May I respectfully point out that neither Ssolbergj or Eurosong should revert any further today as they would both be guilty of WP:3RR.

If I may give my own opinion, the idea that an infobox template needed to be created specifically for this contest is rediculous. {{infobox television}} would've been appropriate. It is, after all, a television programme. ~~ Peteb16 21:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Europope?

Having just checked the EBU website at [2] it would seem that the Vatican City may be entitled to enter the contest as well. There is a Vatican Radio station, although I'm not sure if they would need to have a TV station as well in order to enter. The current pontiff does have a better singing voice than his predecessor, although having a conclave of cardinals to decide their votes might not be allowable under the current rules.Moldovanmickey 00:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)MoldovanMickey Preceding comment repaired Peteb16 01:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

A TV station is needed to enter. While not specifically mentioned in the Contest rules, references are made everywhere to the televised broadcast of the show by the participating EBU members. Obviously, Vatican Radio would be unable to do this: therefore they would not be able to follow the rules of the Contest. EuroSong ^talk 23:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

After 2002

After 2002, Turkey's winning in the contest, festival's face has been changed.. New logo, new system, televote compulsory.. And the festival became popular as like as in the first years.

Anyway.. There arent any writing about Turkey..

Even when someone tries to add eurovision-turkey.com which announces turkish and english eurovision news.. it is deleted..

It will be good to add eurovision-turkey.com and Sertab Erener

~~ Maverick16

I feel it important to point out that the look of the contest (consistant logos, branding, semi-finals etc.) was changed in 2004 not 2002. Latvia won in 2002 and Turkey won in 2003 during the former single part contest style. Also the addition of external links should hopefully fall under WP:EL guidlines, I'm not sure some of the existing links really fall within these guidelines, so it's best not to add insult to injury by adding more. ~~ Peteb16 22:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Maverick, Thank you for following my advice and starting a discussion here on the talk page :) Now, I get the feeling you're Turkish. From what you write here, it looks like you're taking exception to the fact that there is nothing written about Turkey in the article. However, I can assure you that the reason I reverted your changes is not because there is any kind of anti-Turkish feeling here. No - none at all. There are many countries which are not specifically mentioned in the article, aside from in the debut year list. Let me clarify a couple of points here:

Firstly, the reason I removed your eurovision-turkey link is because it is a nationality-specific website. The current list of links includes no specific national sites (they are all general ones). And if the Turkish site were to be added, then it would only be fair to add at least one nationality-specific site from every country which participates. This clearly would not be right, as the list would get far too long. Wikipedia articles are not collections of links. Besides, this is the English language WIkipedia: all links and references should be to English language websites - unless in the rare situation where the ONLY source of reference available is in another language. I do believe there is a Wikipedia rule about this somewhere.

Secondly, please read the discussion some way up this page regarding which artists should be included in the list of artists who have achieved success. I originally based this list upon which artists I personally had heard of, independently of my Eurovision interest. However, it was pointed out that this was not the best criterion for measurement, and it has been agreed that artists who have won within the past five years shall be excluded from the list anyway. This is not a decision made to discriminate against Sertab (whose winning song I LOVED by the way!) - but simply a method of keeping the list in check, where we see whether the artist has become successful internationally after a reasonable period of time. If you disagree with this measurement, then you are very welcome to add your own contributions to the discussion under the proper section above.

Thanks, EuroSong ^talk 22:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

ESCKaz and Oikotimes are also national fan pages.. --Maverick16 22:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Why do you still insist.. You can see that turkish eurovision site also has english part.. 22:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)~

ESCKaz and oikotimes have grown up from being nationality-specific sites, into being recognised primarily for their internationalism. Also, they have established themselves as large, well-recognised sites within the community. The fact that the Turkish site "also has an English section" is neither here nor there: it is primarily a Turkish website, whereas the others are primarily international ones. International visitors don't go to eurovisionturkey as a primary source of information. Well - that's my opinion on the issue. Maybe other people want to contribute too. You see, Maverick, this is about "building consensus". If many other people come here and disagree with me, giving reasons, then maybe the consensus will change. See? Other comments are welcome. EuroSong ^talk 08:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

This is your personal idea(about -International visitors don't go.....)-.. You should see the rank of eurovision-turkey.com on alexa.com.. The rank of the site is more than most of the links listed there..

Please be realistic what you are talking about.. If you tell me that you dont want to allow Eurovision Turkey just for it is the site of Turkey i will stop this discussion here and i wont continue to argue.. But be sure that oikotimes and esckazakhistan are also national fan sites..--Maverick16 19:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear. Looks like we have another person who likes to act like a poor little victim. "It's because you hate Turkey!" - he cries. Pity that some people can't accept that the reason they don't get their own way is simply because they're not following the rules properly (like building consensus): not because everyone else is out to get them. EuroSong ^talk 17:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

As a totally objective non-European Wikipedian who had never heard of Eurovision previous to stumbling upon this article today, I have to support (for what it's worth) Eurosong in his stance. He/she has explained his/her reasoning and rationale quite well concerning the topics raised by Maverick16. There is clearly no 'anti' anything in the responses, no hidden agenda and a perfect example of NPOV. In fact, I think the whole article is quite a good example of a multi-national / multi-cultural article being presented fairly to all and partial to none. Well done! CanadianMist 16:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Problem with Eurovision winners link

It seems that somebody is having the time of his life by spreading farcical information on several Eurovision winners. As I am French and try to get information for the French Wikipedia Eurovision winners section, I am a bit annoyed. At first, I noticed the joke on the Linda Martin link where she is described as "heavily botoxed", at first I was hugely amused (although I have no idea how she looks) but thought administrators were seeing to that because in the discussion page, there was a reminder of how they wanted the article. Then it started to occur to me that while creating some links for the French pages, I had discarded information that sounded strange or out of place and yesterday I realized that there is somebody having fun. I think all winners links should be looked at by administrators especially Linda Martin, Bobbysocks and the clairvoyant story, Udo Jürgens described as a womanizer (perhaps it's true but on a Wikipedia page, it does not sound serious) and his "family links", Massiel's birthdate and place and strange "political" biography, I don't think the Spanish link mentions it and perhaps Teddy Scholten or I can't remember who is supposed to have a hit by "recording instrumental versions of The Shadows' hit. Consequently, I'm not sure I can rely on the English version to create links for the French version. Something like "heavily botoxed" has no consequence because you know immediately it's a joke but more troublesome are other information that do not sound farcical and might be repeated and translated on other links out of good faith.

Kindest regards,

P.R —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.79.228.47 (talk) 06:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC).

Capitalization

All Kinds Of Everything, Brotherhood Of Man and Save Your Kisses For Me should be changed to All Kinds of Everything, Brotherhood of Man and Save Your Kisses for Me respectively as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions, Wikipedia:WikiProject Music/MUSTARD#Capitalization, Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks) and Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums#Capitalization. Jogers (talk) 17:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. WikiProject Music and Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums are mere WikiProjects, and their guidelines are not set-in-stone policies which should override all and every mention of any song title or band name. While I do accept that your capitalisation policy has a wide degree of support from many writers, you also need to accept that it is not the only single correct policy for capitalisation in the English language. Different publishers have different house styles, and no one style is more correct than any others. You can even read Wikipedia's own article at Capitalization#Headings and publication titles, where it lists many capitalisation policies.

Also, yes I know Google isn't definitive, but if you take a look here, you will see that "Save Your Kisses For Me" is by far the most common capitalisation of this song title, excluding those pieces of text written only in upper-case, only in lower-case, or in sentence case. Are you going to write to all the authors of those web pages too, to beg them to change their capitalisation policies? Or do you only concentrate your activity on Wikipedia because AWB is convenient and capitalisation is a particular bee you have in your bonnet? EuroSong ^talk 21:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that Wikipedia:Naming conventions is an official policy. The convention it refers to is widely accepted on English Wikipedia. Is there any particular reason why you would prefer to keep it inconsistent? Jogers (talk) 22:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It would be complete and utter chaos if we capitalized every article based on how it was printed by the publisher. Google has little bearing here; most people online capitalize every word because it's convenient. –Unint 15:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The naming conventions should stand here. That, as well as the Manual of Style, should control questions of capitalization. Both are written to avoid silly edit wars like this one. (ESkog)^(Talk) 17:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Uniformed Sub-sections?

Is it just me who thinks that the country sub-sections should use the same style as each other? By this I mean compare Greece to Romania. The tables are different for a start and the Romanian page uses colour to show the highest result the country has ever recieved (surely colours should only be use on table for a first place entry, as on Greece's page?). Also, look underneath the external links on the Romania page, a small table linking to all pages for Romanian entries year by year. This would be a great feature on the sub-sections but I haven't seen it on any other pages. The main table on Belgium's page has a lot more information that other pages: who the composer was for each of the songs, the conductor etc. Why not on every page? I'll help with changing them as much as I can, but being a newbie to Wikipedia, I don't know how use all the tables, "safely" edit them, etc. I'd appeciate thoughts on this matter and any help! --Gottago 14:18, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Your message is about articles other than this one: they are not "subsections", but they are separate articles. Please discuss these issues on the relevant talk pages of those articles - or leave a message at WikiProject Eurovision, if you want a general message for all country-specific articles. Thanks! EuroSong ^talk 15:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Number of performers

"From 1957 to 1970 (in 1956 there was no restriction at all), only soloists and duos were allowed on stage. From 1963, a chorus of up to three people was permitted. Since 1971, a maximum of six performers have been permitted on the stage."

Should this start "From 1957 to 1962..."? Also the cited source (the 2005 rules) doesn't mention anything about numbers in previous years. Thryduulf 12:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

genre examples

the article makes references to the many genres that have been seen in the past. maybe beside the genre's there could be a significant example or two. just for clarification. because i read nordic music, and i had a hard time finding a specific band/song. ...Patrick (talk, cntrb.) 04:25, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Problems with images

Several images in this article don't have a proper fair use rationale. The license of one other image is disputed. – Ilse@ 09:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I also removed the last fair use image without rationale from the portal link. – Ilse@ 16:37, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Categories

The categories Eurovision Song Contest by year and Countries in the Eurovision Song Contest shouldn't be included by the use of the protected navigational templates used at the bottom of the article. – Ilse@ 11:12, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Archived FAR

Archived FAR at Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Eurovision_Song_Contest/archive1; pls see instructions at WP:FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:36, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Images

I removed three images which had been tagged for deletion. This was mainly motivated by the increased visibility of the article because it's on the main page, not because I necessarily think they should be deleted. If you would like to comment on those deletions, just get the link from the diff. It's seems like there are plenty of images for this article in the meantime. If you think that one of those images will obviously be kept and can provide better licencing info, feel free to re-add it. Savidan 16:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Theme

Whats the theme music called? Peace keeper II 18:39, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Te Deum, by Marc-Antoine Charpentier --Calítoe.:. 19:49, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Question

Just curious, but was this article selected as the AOTD for today in order to coincide with the contest in current events? · AndonicO ^Talk 23:49, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes :) EuroSong ^talk 22:17, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Serbia

Interestingly, Serbia is only the second country in the entire history of the contest to win with its debut entry. The first was Switzerland, in the 1956 contest. But then, that's a given - it was the first contest, so any country would have won with its debut entry. JIP | Talk 06:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Terry Wogan Commentary

Why is there no mention of the Wogan commentary? He has done the commentary for as long as I can remember, and, for Brits at least, is a HUGE part of the Eurovision contest.

Considering that Britain as a nation have stopped taking the Eurovision seriously in recent years, Wogan's sarcastic, often drink-induced commentary is a real treat for those who watch it with irony. Indeed, it is hard not to, nowadays, seeing how seriously other countries take this silly little talent contest. If it wasn't for Terry Wogan, many people, including myself, would not watch it.

Then why, in the Eurovision page, is there no mention of him? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.202.112.137 (talk) 09:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

Because he only commentates for the BBC broadcasts. If they add Tel, they have to add everyone else. Incidentally, I think 'drink induced' is a bit unfair and I bet the UK aren't the only ones not to take this thing too seriously. ~~ Peteb16 10:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

But Terry himself often comments that drink is the only way he can get through it. And what is the problem with adding other people? If we add Tezzah, other countries can add others if they see fit. Also, on not taking it seriously, have you not seen the presenters they have each year? They act as if it's the biggest thing in the world.

I'm sure the drink thing is a joke and if we add all the commentators, the subject will outway other more relevant topics. Also, I don't know about most countries but apparently the Finnish commentator was making tongue-in-cheek comments too. After the UK performance he commented that he'd like to be a fly on the wall of Terry Wogan's booth and when Serbia disappeared on the way from the green room to the stage he joked that the escalators must've broken down. ~~ Peteb16 18:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

If that's all other countries commentator's can come up with then its really rather tame. Wogan is biting and in many ways actually nasty about the other entries, not simply trying to be a little bit funny. As said, its the only reason most British people watch.

-

Finally someone who agrees with me. Tell me, anti-Wogans, do any other countries have a commentator who has been doing it since 1980 and that people see as an important part of Eurovision. To Brits, Terry Wogan=Eurovision and Eurovision=Terry Wogan

It matters not one tiny little bit how "important" Wogan is to Eurovision in the UK. This is an international encyclopædia article, and no bias should be shown in favour of one country. If the article were entitled "Public perception of Eurovision in the UK", then yes - Wogan would deservedly feature prominently in such an article. But it's not: it's an international, unbiased article. If we were to start discussing the public perception of the Contest in the UK, then we would have to give examples of how it was perceived in most, if not all other countries who show the broadcast. This would not only be a very messy section, but it would be almost impossible to list references. Can you find a reference for how Eurovision is perceived by the public in Monaco? No? Thought not. Remember the rules for Wikipedia, please. EuroSong ^talk 17:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Why do you have to? This IS the English Wikipedia page for it. You wouldn't have a section about a French translation for Monty Python and the Holy Grail on the Monty Python page. Also, as pointed out, the other countries don't have, as far as I know, a commentator as symbollic of Eurovision as Terry Wogan.

The English Wikipedia means that it's an international encyclopædia - in the English language. It does not mean that bias should be given towards the UK, USA or any other such country just because our native language is that of the encyclopædia. In a perfect world, ALL articles on all language versions of Wikipedia should be basically the same article - but just translated into the relevant languages. The point still stands: this is a general Eurovision Song Contest article, and "public perception of the Contest in the UK" does not get any higher priority in the article than, for example, "public perception of the Contest in Albania", just because this article happens to have been written in the English language. EuroSong ^talk 15:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Why can't we just add Wogan in, and if it means so much to anyone to add their own commentator in, then let them? If no-one cares enough to change it, then I don't see the problem. And my question still stands, which you have never answered: have any of the other countries had a commentator who did it as much as Wogan?

Because this is a Featured Article, and there are strict rules as to what should be in articles and what should not. Really good articles don't have "people adding in little bits if they feel like it". As for your other question, it's irrelevant. Wogan is irrelevant. EuroSong ^talk 01:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Hahhahaha and why don't we list all the other 41 commentators from other countries?? Why is this Terry Wogan so important, because he's ignorant and has no respect for something that to others mean more?

How on earth is Wogan ignorant? He knows more about Eurovision than anyone else in the country. Would you rather some boring commentator who took the silly little contest seriously? And yes, my question is relevant. If he's the commentator who's been doing it for the longest time, then this has to count for something.

This discussion no longer belongs here, as it goes beyond the description of an article talk page. That's all I will say further about this matter. EuroSong ^talk 01:13, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes it does belong here. You have continued to ignore my points simply so you can get your way. Something tells me you would thrive under a fascist government. So I shall repeat: "If he's the commentator who's been doing it for the longest time, then this has to count for something." And yes, that is internationally. If you can prove me wrong, then do so.

Please be civil to other talk page users, and please sign your comments. Information regarding Wogan's length of service in the contest is already in the Terry Wogan article where it is best placed. If it were in this article it would be classed as an unbalanced perspective of the contest as a whole. Even if it were mentioned he was the longest serving commentator, to balance it out (and prove the point) a list would need to be created showing all the people ever to commentate for the contest by their length of service. Then, by some sheer miracle, find one or more citations that verified that information. By then, this new part of the article would've lowered itself into being an 'indiscriminate collection of information'. No one is trying to get their own way here, just maintain the Featured Article status. ~~ Peteb16 21:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey hey kids! I'm back! I just noticed this on the Terry Wogan Wiki page: "Many European countries broadcast the BBC's coverage of the event rather than going to the expense of covering it themselves." So... whadayasaynow? - person who has been asked to sign his comments

The previously mentioned points still stand. EuroSong ^talk 10:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

If "many European countries broadcast the BBC's coverage of the event rather than going to the expense of covering it themselves", then wouldn't that make Wogan an international commentator... or something... - Mr. Sign

Yes, but again, as EuroSong said, the previously mentioned points still stand. The only way adding Wogan would work is if he did the commentry for the entire EBU. ~~ Peteb16 12:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

He's not "an international commentator". As Pete said, he holds NO special status with the EBU at all. The fact that some (not "many") other countries broadcast the BBC feed is not because they choose Wogan's commentary per se, but because they're English speaking and the UK broadcast is therefore the natural choice: for example in Australia it makes much more sense to take the British commentary than it does to take the French one! And even if any country did take Wogan's feed specifically because they wanted his commentary because they preferred it to any other, then such information would still need a reference in a FA-class encyclopædia article. Sorry, but I don't know quite what your agenga is here: do you work for Wogan's press office? It seems that you simply want to promote the man more than he's due. Please accept the fact that The Eurovision Song Contest is a lot, LOT bigger and more important than just one television company employee who happens to provide the commentary track for one of the participating broadcasters. EuroSong ^talk 17:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

My agenda? What a bizarre question... I am simply one of the millions of people who watch Eurovision solely for Wogan's commentary, and feel that he is not being given enough credit. I could equally ask what your agenda is. Have you been scarred by a traumatic childhood experience with Terry Wogan which causes you to hunt him down ruthlessly, putting him down every step? It sounds bizarre, I'm sure, but as did your question.

Again, this is going off-topic. We have repeatedly made clear the criteria required for a good encyclopædia article, and if you are unable to understand that then we shall not dignify you with further responses. Goodnight. EuroSong ^talk 22:49, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Eurosong, but I take issue with your logic. Here in Germany, for example, Wogan's commentary is often mentioned in media reports, even though it isn't broadcast here. He's been doing it for a very long time and has influenced the tone of other commentators, such as Germany's Peter Urban, who also makes snide-ish remarks (sometimes). Wogan, and any other veteran commentators in other EBU countries, certainly deserves a brief mention. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 00:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, ProhibitOnions. Would you please provide references for the above statements? Thanks, EuroSong ^talk 09:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Godsake! Why can't you just content yourself with writting sbout that Wogan on the article about the UK in the eurovision song contest? You do know there is a page like that, don't you? Plus, the UK isn't the only english-speaking country in the world, and most non-britons (with very, very few exceptions) don´t know who wogan is. I myself only heard about him when I moved to the uk!! I love my country's commentator, but it isn't because of that that I'm gonna write about him. Write about wogan on the page about the Uk on the eurovision song contest!!

Removal of paragraph by User:Slydevil

User:Slydevil has removed a paragraph in the article's lead - see diff. I disagree with this removal. The reason given was "it makes some very strong claims without any sort of references, it's informal, doesn't do the rest of the article justice". My response is:

This paragraph was present when the article passed Featured Article status, and no-one said there was anything wrong with it. Regarding references, not every single sentence needs a citation - and the rest of the article speaks for the truth of the paragraph. I would say that the fact that it's one of the most watched non-sporting events in the world (a referenced statement), and the list of participants, quite nicely back up the fact that it's currently a contest of "mammoth proportions" - and the section on national selections shows just what a household name it is.

Does anyone have anything to add to this, before I re-include it? I will wait to leave time for comments. Thanks. EuroSong ^talk 00:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, of course the fact that it was there when it went FA, means very little, articles can always been improved. You say yourself that, "the rest of the article speaks for the truth of the paragraph". So if the facts are already there, why is the paragraph needed? It is informal, doesn't add anything, it's really only there to glorify the event. Slydevil 01:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It is in the lead area, and the leads should serve as a "summary" of the article. When it's properly attributed in the article body itself, it should serve adequately. --293.xx.xxx.xx 07:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

If the deleted paragraph served as an adequate summary of the article, it should be restored. It doesn't need references as long as the points mentioned in the lead are referenced later in the article. =Axlq 15:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

What facts is this: "the word "Eurovision" is one of the few household names to be recognised across an entire continent." exactly summarising? It's an assumption, not encyclopedic matierial. The paragraph merely sensationalises whats already been stated in the previous paragraphs. It doesn't contribute anything useful, at all. Slydevil 23:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of "voting alliances" map

The (most recent) map was deleted, because it was unreferenced (and looked like someone just made it up). Whichever referenced (not original research) map eventually is put up, hopefully it also makes a distinction between the "two-way" (and multi-way) alliances (incl., e.g., Cyprus<->Greece, Belarus<->Russia, Romania<->Moldova, to name the most "obvious" ones), and the "one-way" alliances, (e.g., Germany->Turkey, Estonia->Russia, i.e., cases where a large immigrant community regularly vote for their country of historical origin, from where there is no significant regular "voting in return"). --Klamber 14:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Armenian live broadcast

The entire ESC has to be broadcast live in national TVs and viewers vote in the same 15 minutes, I know. But in Armenia the broadcast begins at 00:00am and ends at 03:00am (or 01:00 to 04:00?). So, is there the Eurovision Song Contest so popular? If yes, how can it be so popular? I think this issue is very interesting. User:Skafa/Sign 14:55, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

This page is for discussing the Wikipedia article on the Eurovision Song Contest. It is not for general questions about the Contest. I suggest you ask your question here. Thanks, EuroSong ^talk 15:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

eurovision-wiki.com launched

Eurovision related wiki site has launched. you can connect on this site at www.eurovision-wiki.com

Can we add it on external links section?--88.226.57.215 22:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

"Voting Alliances" image

Countries coloured by "Voting Alliances"

I have restored the map on "Voting Alliances". The image was removed by User:Klamber, with a edit summary "deleting unreferenced and geographically inaccurate map (e.g., why are Estonian islands different than mainland?". The user has now been blocked, suspected of being a sockpuppet, -- Petri Krohn 22:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I am removing the image again. I do not know who or what User:Klamber is, but the removal of the image was justified for the reasons stated. The image is not referenced: Wikipedia is not for original research, and such an image is clearly original research. In order for it to have a legitimate place in this article, the "voting alliances" as shown would have to have been published as fact (not just speculation!) in an independently verifiable publication. I'm sorry, but that image can't stay. EuroSong ^talk 22:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

If you feel so, it is OK with me. The edit summary about the missing lines on Saaremaa just did not sound very convincing. -- Petri Krohn 22:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

True.. that reason alone would not have been a good enough reason to remove the image from the article (in that case, the image should just be improved!). But no.. the real reason is WIkipedia's No Original Research policy. Thanks for understanding :) EuroSong ^talk 22:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

As for the sources for the image. This seems to be based on some simple mathematical analysis of the votes. I am sure this is published someplase. Too bad the original uploader does not seem to be around to defend his image, and reveal his sources. -- Petri Krohn 23:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Eyyy!!! in eed, this map is based according the votes since "the semi·final method"(SF) , so far: since 2004 with the tables of points... but is so obviously this year... :( :(, That is so longr that songs ... eg, Bulgarian song passed the SF and do not `ll passed.... 88.19.26.251 16:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Jordan, Libya, Egypt

They're members of the EBU, aren't they eligible? Shouldn't they be shown as so on the map?

Yes, they should. Unfortunately though I can't find a good map which includes them! Can you make one? EuroSong ^talk 08:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I made one, a half year ago: you can see Egypt, Jordan, Libya... but not Azebaijan. But I can make a new one.--82.212.57.246 13:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Musical style and presentation

Due to the fact that the songs are playing to such a diverse international audience with diverse musical tastes, and that countries want to be able to appeal to as many people as possible to gain votes, the majority of the songs historically have been middle-of-the-road pop.

Are English lyrics (from non English speaking countries) common for songs that do well? If so that should be included in this sentence. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

ex-yugo languages

I have to disagree with the idea of some über-smart who divided languages of former Yugoslav entries into current divisions, by what I must presume is a geographic criterion. There were no "Croatian", "Bosnian" and "Serbian" languages before 1990. I really believe that we must stick to the official language of the songs here, and of course during ex-Yu there was only the common language (Serbo-Croatian, with a couple of songs in Slovene language, which was a separate story all the time). Otherwise we are engaging in original research. Just because somebody was from republic X does not mean they sang in X-ian language. Going into analyzing the words of the songs to figure our whether they were "really X-ian", "actually Y-ian", or whatever (which - mind you - some people actually do), is a road straight into WP:OR. Once again I believe we must revert all of these to their original official language, Serbo-Croatian, and stick to this. Could somebody else perhaps comment before I make large-scale corrections (this must be done for basically every year 1961-1992). --Dzordzm (talk) 05:01, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm confused. To which article(s) are you referring? In this article there is nothing about the Yugoslavian languages. EuroSong ^talk 20:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to separate articles for each yearly edition of the contest. This seemed like the most appropriate place to ask (rather than on like 35 different talk pages...) --Dzordzm (talk) 04:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)