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'''Non-westernized concepts of male sexuality''' may vary considerably from concepts of [[sexual orientation]] prevalent in [[Western culture]]<ref>Re-Orienting Desire: The Gay International and the Arab World, Review of [[Joseph Massad]]’s book: Desiring Arabs from the site: http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1679743</ref><ref>Homosexual behaviour without homosexual identity: The case of Chinese men having sex with men (MSM); Winkelmann C.; Int Conf AIDS. 2004 Jul 11-16; 15: abstract no. WePeD6407; http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/102284322.html</ref>
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Recent scholarship has questioned the applicability of Western concepts of sexual orientation and identity in non-Western cultures.<ref>The Dictionary of Anthropology; By Thomas Barfield; Published 1997, Blackwell Publishing; Ethnology</ref><ref>[http://www.workers.org/2007/world/lavender-red-113/ Struggles for sexual, gender liberation rooted in national liberation movements], Lavender & red, part 113, By Leslie Feinberg,World.org.</ref> <ref>[http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102250059.html Heterosexual Identity and Male-to-Male Sexual Activities: Implications for HIV Transmission and Prevention in India.]
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Bhattacharya G; International Conference on AIDS.
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Int Conf AIDS. 2002 Jul 7-12; 14: abstract no. WePeE6483.
=General discussion=
Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, IL, United States
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BACKGROUND: This study examined the social and cultural contexts that shape the expression of sexual identity in India and the ways those contexts attach meaning to sexual behavior, including male-to-male sexual activities in various social arrangements and situations among heterosexually identified men in India. METHODS: This community-based study included in-depth audiotaped interviews with sixteen participants in India. A semistructured interview guide was used, and the text of the interview was transcribed, coded, and organized for descriptive presentation in this study. Empirical and scientific data on HIV infection and transmission, literature on Asian Indian culture, and theoretical frameworks for research complemented this study. RESULTS: Male-to-male sexual activities were reported common for having "fun" (masti) and or for initiating sexual experiences. Procreation determined the socially prescribed gender identity in heterosexual relationships. Married and heterosexually identified men may practice occasional or regular male-to-male sexual activities for sexual pleasure and satisfaction. Male-to-male sexual activities were not equated with sexual identity as "gay", "bisexual", or "homosexual". The Indian Penal Code 377 criminalizes "homosexual" behavior. CONCLUSIONS: For understanding the epidemiology of HIV transmission and for preventing the risks of the transmission of HIV that an individual may be exposed to in multiple social arrangements in India, interventions must target unsafe sexual behaviors and risks of HIV transmission, rather than relying on specific and delineated classification of self based on sexual identity. Acknowledgements: This study was supported by a grant from the International Council, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (Gauri Bhattacharya: Principal Investigator, 2000-2001).</ref>
== How much ==


The Western concept of [[sexual orientation]] is relatively recent in origin, coming into being during the last 150 years. In Western (and perhaps other westernized) cultures, a male who experiences [[Same-sex attraction|sexual attraction to other men]] may be classified as ''[[bisexual]]'' or ''[[homosexual]].'' (The use of such categories places him into the same classification as same-sex attracted males who [[Transvestism|cross-dress]] and engage flamboyantly in purportedly [[Effeminacy|effeminate]] behavior.) In a number of other cultures, a male is defined by his (putatively internal) gender; in such a culture, a masculine gendered male (of any sexual orientation) might simply be labeled a ''[[man]]'', and males putatively gendered as feminine (tranvestites of any sexual preference, flamboyantly effeminate males who are believed to indulge in receptive anal sex, and [[transsexual]]s) would not be considered 'men' but would be classified as members of what is sometimes called the ''[[third sex]], i.e. partly male and partly female''.<ref>Kuru, Selim S. 2000. A Sixteenth Century Scholar: Deli Birader and His "Dafi`ü'l-Gumum Ve Rafi`ü'l-Humum." Unpublished PhD Dissertation. Harvard University. P. 258 </ref> <ref>El-Rouayheb, Khaled. Before Homosexuality in the Arabic World, 1500-1800. p. 153</ref> <ref>[http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cache:wucWXA9yPocJ:www.aidsallianceindia.net/Publications/CalcuttaRpt_MSM.pdf+sex+roles+active+passive+khoti+giriya&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=in Needs Assessment of Males whoe have sex with males in calcutta and suburbs] prepared by:Research team of Male Sexual Health ProgrammePraajak ( formerly Naz Calcutta Project) It has been observed that MSS in developing countries generally adopt a gendered sense of identify which influencesthe role they take in male to male sexual activities. In Calcutta these gendered selves are expressed in the concepts ofdhurani, feminine man who takes the so-called “passive” role in sex with men, and parikh, masculine man of whatever sexual orientation, but who takes the so-called ‘active’ role in sex with men.</ref>
how much did Guinness pay for the ad on wiki, and can I pay for the same? [[Special:Contributions/81.76.3.166|81.76.3.166]] ([[User talk:81.76.3.166|talk]]) 18:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


==Views regarding the concept of sexual orientation==
:Hello there. Because Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia, and a registered charity, we are not funded by advertising. You would not have seen this product advertised, and we would not accept payments for advertising. Best, [[User:PeterSymonds|PeterSymonds]] [[User talk:PeterSymonds|<small>(talk)</small>]] 19:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
{{Sexual orientation}}
The universal applicability of modern Western concepts of sexual orientation has been questioned by such scholars as [[Twentieth-century French philosophy|twentieth-century French philosopher]] [[Michel Foucault]]. The debate here is an instance of a broader conversation in social theory between [[social constructionism|social constructionists]] and [[essentialist]]s.


Essentialists maintain that sexual identities reflect deeply rooted sexual desires which can be neatly classified as [[heterosexual]], [[homosexual]], or (sometimes) [[bisexual]]. Social constructionists argue that [[sexual identity|sexual identities]] are socially constructed. Social constructionists assert that these identities are specific to certain cultures and historical periods. Historian [[David Greenberg]], for instance, argues that the concept of homosexuality did not exist prior to the mid-nineteenth century. He argues that "the production and dissemination of a medical discourse in the recent past ... gave birth not just to the concept of a homosexual person, but also to homosexuals themselves, and at the same time, to their antitwins, heterosexual persons."<ref>[[David Greenberg|Greenberg, David]]. The Construction of Homosexuality. [[Chicago]], [[Illinois]]:[[University of Chicago Press]], 486-487. ISBN 0-226-30628-3.</ref>
::I suspect that 81.76 is referring to the appearance of [[noitulovE]] as Today's Featured Article. [[User:GeeJo|GeeJo]] <sup>[[User talk:GeeJo|(t)]]</sup>⁄<sub>[[Special:Contributions/GeeJo|(c)]]</sub> <small>&bull;&nbsp;22:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)</small>


Some evidence suggests that not all people have found that the categories introduced, according to Greenberg, in the nineteenth century are helpful in characterizing their own sexual identities. <ref>''Sexual Identity Development and Synthesis among LGB-Identified and LGB Dis-Identified Persons''.; Journal article by Mark A. Yarhouse, Erica S.N. Tan, Lisa M. Pawlowski; Journal of Psychology and Theology, Vol. 33, 2005 http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=H9hL2Qb2lV2kQnpGtXTrZzXGkMPhJ0TVXRzfT8hSw316CbPsWW8S!-1788132937?docId=5009356549</ref> It has been argued by some researchers that the majority of males in Western(ised) cultures frequently engaged in same-sex sexual behaviours before the concept of 'sexual orientation' was introduced, but avoid doing so now because of social pressures generated by the way male gender and sexuality has been socially constructed in the West, post-'sexual orientation', with the result that men who do acknowledge sexual attraction to other men experience significant isolation.<ref>Review of Book "Sex and the Gender Revolution, Volume One: Heterosexuality and the Third Gender in Enlightenment London, by Randolph Trumbach chicago, University of Chicago Press, 1998. (xiv), 509 pp.; Reviewer: Lesley A. Hall of Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine, London. http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/trumbach.htm</ref><ref>The Changing social construction of western male homosexuality: Association with worsening youth suicide problems: chapter: Male homosexuality: from commonality to rarity; By Pierre J. Tremblay & Richard Ramsay Faculty of Social Work, University of Calgary. http://youth-suicide.com/gay-bisexual/construction/3-gay-youth-suicide-homosexuality-rare.htm</ref><ref>The Changing social construction of western male homosexuality: Association with worsening youth suicide problems: chapter: Male homosexuality: from commonality to rarity</ref><ref>[http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/metadata.epl?mode=synopsis&bookkey=187941 Picturing Men
:::This has got to be the 10th time I've seen someone with this same complaint. The fact of the matter is that Wikipedia's editors are primarily young white males, and what do young white males enjoy more than pop culture? [[Special:Contributions/98.207.43.214|98.207.43.214]] ([[User talk:98.207.43.214|talk]]) 23:12, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
A Century of Male Relationships in Everyday American Photography] by John Ibson, The University of Chicago Press</ref>
:I wonder how much [[Tyrone Wheatley]] payed us to put him on the front page or [[The Beatles]] or the [[Anglo-Saxon chronicle]]. For that matter, we must be getting huge amounts of money from the [[United States Congress]]. They've been on the front page all week. [[Special:Contributions/66.231.141.34|66.231.141.34]] ([[User talk:66.231.141.34|talk]]) 04:49, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
::Yeah, and look at how many blurbs and such there are for the Wikimedia Foundation... they must be spending a ''fortune'' on ads here. [[User:Aylad|Aylad]] [[User_talk:Aylad|['ɑɪlæd]]] 05:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Though, 98.207.43.214 does have a point about young white males. Just because WP covers all topics, does not mean its editors have wide-ranging interests. Some topics receive more attention than others. [[Special:Contributions/118.90.18.154|118.90.18.154]] ([[User talk:118.90.18.154|talk]]) 06:47, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
:See [[Wikipedia:Systemic bias]] for more on that. -[[User:Elmer Clark|Elmer Clark]] ([[User talk:Elmer Clark|talk]]) 08:26, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, like black people aren't hooked on pop culture either. [[Special:Contributions/210.50.99.56|210.50.99.56]] ([[User talk:210.50.99.56|talk]]) 16:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::Hey, hey, we aren't trying to spark an uncivil conflict here...no need to press this discussion further, I think the necessary points have already been made. <font face="Gill Sans MT">[[User:IceUnshattered|I]][[Special:Contributions/IceUnshattered|<font color="#9CBCC9">''c''</font>]][[User:IceUnshattered|<font color="darkblue">eUnshattered</font>]] <sup>[ [[User talk:IceUnshattered|t]] ]</sup></font> 22:32, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


Ideas of gender and sexual orientation are closely linked. (The putatively ''homosexual'' identity exhibits some continuity with third sex identities<ref>Review of Book "Sex and the Gender Revolution, Volume One: Heterosexuality and the Third Gender in Enlightenment London, by Randolph Trumbach, Chicago, University of Chicago Press, 1998. (xiv), 509 pp.; Reviewer: Lesley A. Hall of Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine, London. http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/trumbach.htm</ref> and is more closely associated by some modern Western stereotypes with putative femininity in males.<ref>Mollies Arrested in London: Gayhistory.com http://www.gayhistory.com/rev2/factfiles/ff1726.htm</ref>. The contemporary ''heterosexual'' identity is arguably more closely associated with putative [[masculinity]] and may reflect earlier delineations of mainstream men's spaces). Gender provides a lens through which cross-cultural (and intra-cultural differences regarding male sexuality may appear particularly clear.
== Today's Featured Media (5th October) ==


==Cultural differences related to male sexuality==
I'd just like to say that I found the featured video today very moving. Thank you. [[User:TleilaxuMaster|TleilaxuMaster]] ([[User talk:TleilaxuMaster|talk]]) 12:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
===Strong men's spaces===
As evidenced from published references from different parts of the traditional (non-westernised) non-western world ([[India]], [[Indonesia]], and certain countries in the Arab world)<ref>Negotiating Gender: Calalai' in Bugis Society: Sharyn Graham; also,
Bissu are gender transcendent, pre-Islamic priests. See Leonard Andaya, 'The Bissu: Study of a Third Gender in Indonesia', in Other Pasts: Women, Gender, and History in Early Modern Southeast Asia, ed. Barbara Andaya, Hawai'i: Hawai'i University Press, 2000:27-46.</ref>), the society is often divided into men's, women's and third gender spaces.


The ''men's spaces'' are very strong in the sense that they guard against the process of ''[[heterosexualization]]''—which has the effect of isolating and removing male-male sexuality from these spaces into a separate [[ghetto]] — and also provides men a lot of relief from pressures of social manhood (such as exaggerating one's sexual need for women, and suppressing one's sexual need for men). The strength of men's spaces can also be seen by the fact that these spaces resist the imposition of the western practice of isolation of same-sex male sexual bonds from these spaces, through the concept of ''[[homosexuality]]''. Men's spaces refer to spaces which are exclusively for men, and where women are either not allowed or their entry is highly restricted. These spaces are extremely important for men and their manhood and very congenial to bonds between men, including sexual bonds. These sexual bonds are very open if the formal society is accepting, otherwise hidden to various degrees, depending upon how hostile the formal society is.<ref>Worlds of Gender: the Archaeology of Women's lives around the globe by Sarah Milledge Nelson, published by Altamira press 2007</ref>
:I thought of it as a snuff movie; those are actual people being killed. [[User:EamonnPKeane|EamonnPKeane]] ([[User talk:EamonnPKeane|talk]]) 13:40, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


Socially, men are extremely comfortable showing physical intimacy with other men, publicly, and its seen as masculine, something which according to the Western standards will be seen as gay and unmasculine, since only gays indulge in such intimacy in the West.<ref>[http://thedelhiwalla.blogspot.com/2007/04/confessions-of-american-my-life-in-new.html Confessions of an American - My Life in a New Delhi Gym] Quote: In their masculinity they’re identical to their American counterparts – until you notice that they can’t seem to keep their hands off each other. The easy physical contact which many Indian males have with their friends reaches its apogee at the gym, whose raison d’être is after all the body beautiful. As they pass each other, the trainers touch each other’s hands or chests, or they walk through the workout area together with their arms slung round each other’s shoulders.</ref>
::I didn't think anything of it since it just gets stuck in buffer mode. Why put a video on the front page of Wikipedia which we already know has terrible server capacity? Stick to photos. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/174.148.15.99|174.148.15.99]] ([[User talk:174.148.15.99|talk]]) 16:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::I also struggled to see it, and didn't see the whole thing until I downloaded it and installed a plugin for WMP, which still crashed the player after the video had finished. I really don't think there's anything wrong with sticking to more common formats, like MP3 and AVI, but I doubt that's going to change. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 16:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Indeed, that is why I found it so interesting Eamonn. The distanced and almost casual attitude, looking through a crosshair at individuals, the ease of which they are dispensed with, etc. Comparisons could be drawn between it and looking at bacterium in a Petri dish. The way individuals and society gives lip-service to the abhorring of murder while society itself commits these crimes through individuals...I could go on. I didnt have any problems streaming here. (England.) [[User:TleilaxuMaster|TleilaxuMaster]] ([[User talk:TleilaxuMaster|talk]]) 16:18, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I'd love to comment on the video, but it never manages to finish loading and the download abruptly cancels before the halfway mark for me. [[User:JPG-GR|JPG-GR]] ([[User talk:JPG-GR|talk]]) 17:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Myn expernce is that your best bet is to instal VLC media player.[[User:Geni|Geni]] 18:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::::AVI, WMV and MP3 are proprietary, copyrighted formats. Using them goes against Wikipedia's licensing statement (GFDL and so on), see [[meta:Video policy|here]] and [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-July/011546.html here]. You can install [http://www.free-codecs.com/download/k_lite_Mega_Codec_Pack.htm the K-Lite Mega Codec Pack] (files playable in any other media player or included [[Media Player Classic]]) or [http://www.videolan.org/ VLC] ([[VLC|article]], contains mainly the same codecs as KLMCP, but they're built in so only VLC can use them) and the files will play fine in your browser and once downloaded to a folder. —[[User:Vanderdecken|Vanderdecken]]∴ '''[[User talk:Vanderdecken|∫]][[Special:Emailuser/Vanderdecken|ξ]][[Special:Contributions/Vanderdecken|φ]]''' 21:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::So there are no freeware media players that play them? Are you saying that someone using a freeware operating system would be unable to use them? [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 21:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::freeware? Not relivant. Wikipedia's standards are [[FOSS]]. There are players built on FOSS systems but they have legal issues.[[User:Geni|Geni]] 23:34, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::In any case, note that freeware or not, in some countries you need a patent license to use patented codecs. Normally the person who develops the codec seeks a licence on behalf of the user but this may not be the case with freeware codecs. While codec patent holder have never (to my knowledge) persued home end users for patent claims, it doesn't mean it's okay to expect people to have to infringe patents to play a file [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 13:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


It is said that before the heterosexualization of the West, similar openness about intimacy existed amongst who are today known as 'straight' men in the West.<ref>[http://pressblog.uchicago.edu/2006/03/01/seeing_males_together_brokebac.html Seeing Males Together: Brokeback Mountain and Picturing Men] The Chicago Blog, Publicity news from the University of Chicago Press including news tips, press releases, reviews, and intelligent commentary</ref>
::A snuff movie is when you kill someone purely to film them dying, so this isn't a snuff movie because the reason for their deaths wasn't related to the film. If it was merely a snuff movie it would have been a lot less sick and disturbing. --[[Special:Contributions/86.167.18.59|86.167.18.59]] ([[User talk:86.167.18.59|talk]]) 00:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
can you guys put where it is located <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.237.227.21|67.237.227.21]] ([[User talk:67.237.227.21|talk]]) 22:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:What are you referring to? The location where the video is shot? Please clarify. Also, it you would sign your posts with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~)</nowiki>, that would be appreciated. <font face="Gill Sans MT">[[User:IceUnshattered|I]][[Special:Contributions/IceUnshattered|<font color="#9CBCC9">''c''</font>]][[User:IceUnshattered|<font color="darkblue">eUnshattered</font>]] <sup>[ [[User talk:IceUnshattered|t]] ]</sup></font> 22:39, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


===Perceptions of men’s sexual desires for other men as universal===
== A featured pic hat trick ==
Some anthropological research has suggested that in [[Afghanistan]] (Kandahaar), [[India]], [[Pakistan]], [[Bangladesh]], [[Sri Lanka]], [[Morocco]] and elsewhere , men's sexual desires for other men is understood as universal, and not the characteristic of one or more sexual minorities. According to this research, a man's display of sexual interest in another man in social environments in which this understanding is shared may not be seen as a sign of difference from the societal mainstream.<ref>[http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/g.hekma/bestanden/imamgay2.doc Imams and homosexuality. A post-gay debate in The Netherlands (1)] Quote: The traditionality of Moroccan culture and its ubiquitous but hidden homosexuality have very much contributed to sexual pleasures of white gay (Green, 1992) and local men in Morocco to this day.</ref> Belief in the ordinariness and ubiquity of male same-sex desire may be freely acknowledged, as it apparently is in Kandahaar<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,44067,00.htm|title=Kandahar Men Return to Original Love: Teenage Boys|publisher=Fox News|author=Tim Reid|date=2002-01-22|accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.nfi.net/NFI%20Publications/Pukaar/2007/Pukaar%20-%20Apr%2007%20.pdf|title=Closely watched Pashtuns-a critique of western journalists'
reporting bias about "Gay Kandahar"|author=Brian James Baer|publisher=Pukaar, the journal of Naz Foundation International|date=April 2007|accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref>. In other cultural settings, same-sex desire may be openly acknowledged in spaces socially defined as male but denied in mixed gender spaces (''e.g.'', in India).


Similar universal sexual bonds between mainstream masculine men have been documented in ancient Greece which is said to be the precursor of modern Western culture.
I see we have one of the pictures from [[crepuscular rays]] on the Main Page today. I'm not sure we had them on the Main Page at the time but both [[:Image:Crepuscular rays color.jpg|this crep-ray pic]] and [[:Image:Crepuscular ray sunset from telstra tower edit.jpg|this one]] have been on Picture of the Day as well, making it possibly (and understandably, given how tempting they are as a subject when you see them and have a camera in hand) the only subject to be represented by three Pictures of the Day. Good work! [[User:Daniel Case|Daniel Case]] ([[User talk:Daniel Case|talk]]) 01:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


Even in the modern West, similar universal sexual bonds between men have been documented before the society was completely [[heterosexualized]] and segregated between '[[heterosexual]]' and '[[homosexual]]'.
== NRL grand final ==


===Role of conception of “third gender” in shaping understanding and practice of male sexuality===
How is the result of the NRL grand final worthy of a position in the 'In the news' section? Shouldn't this be about events of global, or at least national significance? The NRL grand final is neither. I call for it to be removed. [[User:Suicup|Suicup]] ([[User talk:Suicup|talk]]) 00:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
{{Seealso|Third sex|Hijra (South Asia)}}
:It's not from the U.S. so it made it. WTF. &ndash;'''[[User:Howard the Duck|<font color="#FFA500">Howard</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Howard the Duck|<font color="#FFA500">the</font>]] [[User talk:Howard the Duck|<font color="#FFA500">Duck</font>]]''' 02:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
In regions including [[South Asia]]<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.lib.latrobe.edu.au/AHR/archive/Issue-April-1996/Jacksonref.html|title=Non-normative Sex/Gender Categories in the Theravada Buddhist Scriptures|author=Peter A. Jackson|publisher=Australian Humanities review|date=April 1996|accessdate=2008-04-20}}</ref>, [[Southeast Asia|South-East Asia]]<ref>[[Kathoey]]: The term kathoey or katoey (Thai: กะเทย, IPA: [kaʔtʰɤːj]) generally refers to a male-to-female transsexual person or an effeminate gay male in Thailand.</ref>, [[Arab]], [[Indigenous peoples of the Americas]], and [[Polynesian culture|Polynesia]], more than two [[gender]]s are acknowledged, and usually there are three sexes or genders of humans beings. Apart from the masculine and feminine genders, there also is a [[third gender]] which is considered to be both masculine and feminine at the same time (or in some societies neither masculine nor feminine; neutral). It includes [[Transgender|feminine gendered males]], who are considered to have male “outer” sex but feminine gender. While there is no division on the basis of the Western pattern of "sexual orientation", there is a strong division of the male population between masculine gendered males and feminine gendered males. While the former are referred to as "men", the latter are known as members of the [[Transgender|third gender]], regardless of (what might be referred to in the contemporary West as) their sexual orientation. The third sex is considered a separate gender category, and its members are not considered men or women but rather members of a neutral or intermediate gender.{{Fact|date=October 2008}} Thus, sexual relations between a man and another man are not treated as equivalent to sexual relations between a man and a member of the third gender.{{Fact|date=October 2008}}
::That "news" is completely irrelevant to most of the world (ie non NRL watching Australians). It's neatly sandwiched between topics of greater notability, say the Nobel prize (HIV) and the arguably the world's biggest economic crisis. The contrast in notability is very clear. Whilst it has an article, it is not main page material. [[Special:Contributions/129.78.149.91|129.78.149.91]] ([[User talk:129.78.149.91|talk]]) 06:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I've removed it. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 06:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Personally, I think that was a mistake. We routinely list the championship games of major sporting finals, very few of which are of global importance. Just because it was Australia rather than North America or Western Europe hardly means it is less notable. [[User:Resolute|Reso]][[User Talk:Resolute|lute]] 01:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Lemme make it clear that ITN only calls for "''international'' importance or ''interest''," not global importance/significance. Otherwise there'll be a dearth of items eligible for ITN. &ndash;'''[[User:Howard the Duck|<font color="#FFA500">Howard</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Howard the Duck|<font color="#FFA500">the</font>]] [[User talk:Howard the Duck|<font color="#FFA500">Duck</font>]]''' 05:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Any further discussion should take place either at [[WP:ITN/C]] or [[WT:ITN]] [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 19:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


'''Active vs Passive'''
== Main Page redesign proposal ==


Across the non-Western world, the western division of ''straight vs gay'' is seen in terms of ''active vs passive''. Masculine males typically adopt active roles in sex with other males and are seen as equivalent to western straights, while third gender males typically adopt passive roles and are seen as 'gay'. Thus the issue between 'straight' and 'gay' here is not sexual orientation but (a) the masculinity or femininity of the male, and (b) whether he takes the active or passive role in sex with men. <ref>[http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/g.hekma/bestanden/imamgay2.doc Imams and homosexuality. A post-gay debate in The Netherlands (1)] Quote: Censure in traditional Moroccan society is directed mainly to those men who enjoy the passive roles. For them, Moroccan Arabic has several words such as zamel, m'haoui, hassass and attay but none for the active partners who do not lose their honour for fucking men or boys (id, 152).</ref>
Hi Main Pagers! You'll be aware of the [[Wikipedia:2008_main_page_redesign_proposal|Main Page redesign proposal currently under discussion]]; it would be fantastic if you could take a moment to review and comment on both [[Wikipedia:2008_main_page_redesign_proposal/Pretzels|my personal proposal]], and the others too. We really need your opinion and advice to keep the project moving. All the best -- [[User:Pretzels|'''P<span style="font-size:0.9em;">retzels</span>]]'''<sup>[[User talk:Pretzels|Talk!]]</sup> 15:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:Please see [[Wikipedia:Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It|WP:ABDFI]] --[[Special:Contributions/58.108.70.161|58.108.70.161]] ([[User talk:58.108.70.161|talk]]) 04:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Whoa! That was meant to be a joke, I didn't realize there was an actual policy named that. --[[Special:Contributions/220.236.59.243|220.236.59.243]] ([[User talk:220.236.59.243|talk]]) 14:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


In private however, sex between two masculine males either does not involve anal sex at all or if it does, is likely to be mutual, while the sexual roles are strictly adhered to when masculine males have sex with feminine males.


==Reaction to westernization==
statistiche sulla copertura--[[User:Cervo41|Cervo41]] ([[User talk:Cervo41|talk]]) 17:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
<!--temporary? section title, replacements welcomed-->
Westernized populations in [[India]] may follow both western as well as traditional concepts of sexuality.<ref>It's what you do: most of the men who have sex with men in the South probably don't identify themselves as `gay' or `bisexual'; Internationalist, Oct, 2000 by Jeremy Seabrook</ref><ref name="mclelland">Male Homosexuality and Popular Culture in Modern Japan; by Mark McLelland; Murdoch University [http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue3/mclelland2.html]</ref><ref name="feinberg">Struggles for sexual, gender liberation rooted in national liberation movements, Lavender & red, part 113, By Leslie Feinberg, [http://www.workers.org/2007/world/lavender-red-113/]</ref> However, when western constructs of sexuality are forced upon societies such as India in the context of AIDS activism, for example, it creates problems.<ref>[5&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=45c690ecbe38bf32e742c5a2307d0499 The social construction of male ‘homosexuality’ in India: implications for HIV transmission and prevention] Sheena Asthana, a and Robert Oostvogelsb; a Department of Social Policy and Social Work, University of Plymouth, Drake Circus, Plymouth PL4 8AA, UK b AIDS and Anthropology Group, Anthropological Sociological Center, University of Amsterdam, Oudezijds Achterburgwal 185, 1012 DK Amsterdam, Netherlands; Abstract: Over the past 20 years, there has been a growing recognition of the relativity of sexual norms and of the difficulties of exporting Western conceptions of sexuality to different socio-cultural settings. This view has been most clearly articulated in studies of men who have sex with men (MSM) which suggest that the ways in which male–male sexual activity is shaped and constituted vary significantly from place to place. Despite this, ‘homosexuality’ continues to be treated as an unproblematic category in HIV/AIDS discourse, epidemiological studies of and HIV prevention strategies for MSM in widely different contexts being based on the North American/West European example of gay men. This paper, which draws upon ethnographic research in Madras, highlights important differences between India and the West, not only in the sexual identities and circuits of MSM, but in their sexual partnerships and practices. These differences, it is argued, are not only significant to the epidemiology of HIV transmission, but have important implications for the development and implementation of HIV prevention strategies.</ref>

Non-Western cultures often resent the imposition of these Western definitions on them, but may be rendered helpless due to the economic and technological powers of the West.<ref name="feinberg"/><ref name="mclelland"/>

==See also==
*[[Human sexuality]]
*[[Masculinity]]
*[[Romantic friendship]]
*[[Westernization]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
*[http://volokh.com/posts/1200440362.shtml Fight for Heterosexualisation of separate men's and women's spaces on Israeli Busses]
*[http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/1/3/4/8/p113482_index.html Transnational Transgender: Reading Sexual Diversity in Cross-Cultural Contexts Through Film and Video]
*[http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0014/001465/146514e.pdf Masculinity for boys, published by UNESCO]

{{Sexual identities}}

[[Category:Sexual orientation and society]]
[[Category:Sexual orientation and history]]
[[Category:Human sexuality]]
[[Category:Men]]

Revision as of 17:36, 10 October 2008

Non-westernized concepts of male sexuality may vary considerably from concepts of sexual orientation prevalent in Western culture[1][2] Recent scholarship has questioned the applicability of Western concepts of sexual orientation and identity in non-Western cultures.[3][4] [5]

The Western concept of sexual orientation is relatively recent in origin, coming into being during the last 150 years. In Western (and perhaps other westernized) cultures, a male who experiences sexual attraction to other men may be classified as bisexual or homosexual. (The use of such categories places him into the same classification as same-sex attracted males who cross-dress and engage flamboyantly in purportedly effeminate behavior.) In a number of other cultures, a male is defined by his (putatively internal) gender; in such a culture, a masculine gendered male (of any sexual orientation) might simply be labeled a man, and males putatively gendered as feminine (tranvestites of any sexual preference, flamboyantly effeminate males who are believed to indulge in receptive anal sex, and transsexuals) would not be considered 'men' but would be classified as members of what is sometimes called the third sex, i.e. partly male and partly female.[6] [7] [8]

Views regarding the concept of sexual orientation

The universal applicability of modern Western concepts of sexual orientation has been questioned by such scholars as twentieth-century French philosopher Michel Foucault. The debate here is an instance of a broader conversation in social theory between social constructionists and essentialists.

Essentialists maintain that sexual identities reflect deeply rooted sexual desires which can be neatly classified as heterosexual, homosexual, or (sometimes) bisexual. Social constructionists argue that sexual identities are socially constructed. Social constructionists assert that these identities are specific to certain cultures and historical periods. Historian David Greenberg, for instance, argues that the concept of homosexuality did not exist prior to the mid-nineteenth century. He argues that "the production and dissemination of a medical discourse in the recent past ... gave birth not just to the concept of a homosexual person, but also to homosexuals themselves, and at the same time, to their antitwins, heterosexual persons."[9]

Some evidence suggests that not all people have found that the categories introduced, according to Greenberg, in the nineteenth century are helpful in characterizing their own sexual identities. [10] It has been argued by some researchers that the majority of males in Western(ised) cultures frequently engaged in same-sex sexual behaviours before the concept of 'sexual orientation' was introduced, but avoid doing so now because of social pressures generated by the way male gender and sexuality has been socially constructed in the West, post-'sexual orientation', with the result that men who do acknowledge sexual attraction to other men experience significant isolation.[11][12][13][14]

Ideas of gender and sexual orientation are closely linked. (The putatively homosexual identity exhibits some continuity with third sex identities[15] and is more closely associated by some modern Western stereotypes with putative femininity in males.[16]. The contemporary heterosexual identity is arguably more closely associated with putative masculinity and may reflect earlier delineations of mainstream men's spaces). Gender provides a lens through which cross-cultural (and intra-cultural differences regarding male sexuality may appear particularly clear.

Cultural differences related to male sexuality

Strong men's spaces

As evidenced from published references from different parts of the traditional (non-westernised) non-western world (India, Indonesia, and certain countries in the Arab world)[17]), the society is often divided into men's, women's and third gender spaces.

The men's spaces are very strong in the sense that they guard against the process of heterosexualization—which has the effect of isolating and removing male-male sexuality from these spaces into a separate ghetto — and also provides men a lot of relief from pressures of social manhood (such as exaggerating one's sexual need for women, and suppressing one's sexual need for men). The strength of men's spaces can also be seen by the fact that these spaces resist the imposition of the western practice of isolation of same-sex male sexual bonds from these spaces, through the concept of homosexuality. Men's spaces refer to spaces which are exclusively for men, and where women are either not allowed or their entry is highly restricted. These spaces are extremely important for men and their manhood and very congenial to bonds between men, including sexual bonds. These sexual bonds are very open if the formal society is accepting, otherwise hidden to various degrees, depending upon how hostile the formal society is.[18]

Socially, men are extremely comfortable showing physical intimacy with other men, publicly, and its seen as masculine, something which according to the Western standards will be seen as gay and unmasculine, since only gays indulge in such intimacy in the West.[19]

It is said that before the heterosexualization of the West, similar openness about intimacy existed amongst who are today known as 'straight' men in the West.[20]

Perceptions of men’s sexual desires for other men as universal

Some anthropological research has suggested that in Afghanistan (Kandahaar), India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Morocco and elsewhere , men's sexual desires for other men is understood as universal, and not the characteristic of one or more sexual minorities. According to this research, a man's display of sexual interest in another man in social environments in which this understanding is shared may not be seen as a sign of difference from the societal mainstream.[21] Belief in the ordinariness and ubiquity of male same-sex desire may be freely acknowledged, as it apparently is in Kandahaar[22][23]. In other cultural settings, same-sex desire may be openly acknowledged in spaces socially defined as male but denied in mixed gender spaces (e.g., in India).

Similar universal sexual bonds between mainstream masculine men have been documented in ancient Greece which is said to be the precursor of modern Western culture.

Even in the modern West, similar universal sexual bonds between men have been documented before the society was completely heterosexualized and segregated between 'heterosexual' and 'homosexual'.

Role of conception of “third gender” in shaping understanding and practice of male sexuality

In regions including South Asia[24], South-East Asia[25], Arab, Indigenous peoples of the Americas, and Polynesia, more than two genders are acknowledged, and usually there are three sexes or genders of humans beings. Apart from the masculine and feminine genders, there also is a third gender which is considered to be both masculine and feminine at the same time (or in some societies neither masculine nor feminine; neutral). It includes feminine gendered males, who are considered to have male “outer” sex but feminine gender. While there is no division on the basis of the Western pattern of "sexual orientation", there is a strong division of the male population between masculine gendered males and feminine gendered males. While the former are referred to as "men", the latter are known as members of the third gender, regardless of (what might be referred to in the contemporary West as) their sexual orientation. The third sex is considered a separate gender category, and its members are not considered men or women but rather members of a neutral or intermediate gender.[citation needed] Thus, sexual relations between a man and another man are not treated as equivalent to sexual relations between a man and a member of the third gender.[citation needed]

Active vs Passive

Across the non-Western world, the western division of straight vs gay is seen in terms of active vs passive. Masculine males typically adopt active roles in sex with other males and are seen as equivalent to western straights, while third gender males typically adopt passive roles and are seen as 'gay'. Thus the issue between 'straight' and 'gay' here is not sexual orientation but (a) the masculinity or femininity of the male, and (b) whether he takes the active or passive role in sex with men. [26]

In private however, sex between two masculine males either does not involve anal sex at all or if it does, is likely to be mutual, while the sexual roles are strictly adhered to when masculine males have sex with feminine males.

Reaction to westernization

Westernized populations in India may follow both western as well as traditional concepts of sexuality.[27][28][29] However, when western constructs of sexuality are forced upon societies such as India in the context of AIDS activism, for example, it creates problems.[30]

Non-Western cultures often resent the imposition of these Western definitions on them, but may be rendered helpless due to the economic and technological powers of the West.[29][28]

See also

References

  1. ^ Re-Orienting Desire: The Gay International and the Arab World, Review of Joseph Massad’s book: Desiring Arabs from the site: http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1679743
  2. ^ Homosexual behaviour without homosexual identity: The case of Chinese men having sex with men (MSM); Winkelmann C.; Int Conf AIDS. 2004 Jul 11-16; 15: abstract no. WePeD6407; http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/102284322.html
  3. ^ The Dictionary of Anthropology; By Thomas Barfield; Published 1997, Blackwell Publishing; Ethnology
  4. ^ Struggles for sexual, gender liberation rooted in national liberation movements, Lavender & red, part 113, By Leslie Feinberg,World.org.
  5. ^ Heterosexual Identity and Male-to-Male Sexual Activities: Implications for HIV Transmission and Prevention in India. Bhattacharya G; International Conference on AIDS. Int Conf AIDS. 2002 Jul 7-12; 14: abstract no. WePeE6483. Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, IL, United States BACKGROUND: This study examined the social and cultural contexts that shape the expression of sexual identity in India and the ways those contexts attach meaning to sexual behavior, including male-to-male sexual activities in various social arrangements and situations among heterosexually identified men in India. METHODS: This community-based study included in-depth audiotaped interviews with sixteen participants in India. A semistructured interview guide was used, and the text of the interview was transcribed, coded, and organized for descriptive presentation in this study. Empirical and scientific data on HIV infection and transmission, literature on Asian Indian culture, and theoretical frameworks for research complemented this study. RESULTS: Male-to-male sexual activities were reported common for having "fun" (masti) and or for initiating sexual experiences. Procreation determined the socially prescribed gender identity in heterosexual relationships. Married and heterosexually identified men may practice occasional or regular male-to-male sexual activities for sexual pleasure and satisfaction. Male-to-male sexual activities were not equated with sexual identity as "gay", "bisexual", or "homosexual". The Indian Penal Code 377 criminalizes "homosexual" behavior. CONCLUSIONS: For understanding the epidemiology of HIV transmission and for preventing the risks of the transmission of HIV that an individual may be exposed to in multiple social arrangements in India, interventions must target unsafe sexual behaviors and risks of HIV transmission, rather than relying on specific and delineated classification of self based on sexual identity. Acknowledgements: This study was supported by a grant from the International Council, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (Gauri Bhattacharya: Principal Investigator, 2000-2001).
  6. ^ Kuru, Selim S. 2000. A Sixteenth Century Scholar: Deli Birader and His "Dafi`ü'l-Gumum Ve Rafi`ü'l-Humum." Unpublished PhD Dissertation. Harvard University. P. 258
  7. ^ El-Rouayheb, Khaled. Before Homosexuality in the Arabic World, 1500-1800. p. 153
  8. ^ Needs Assessment of Males whoe have sex with males in calcutta and suburbs prepared by:Research team of Male Sexual Health ProgrammePraajak ( formerly Naz Calcutta Project) It has been observed that MSS in developing countries generally adopt a gendered sense of identify which influencesthe role they take in male to male sexual activities. In Calcutta these gendered selves are expressed in the concepts ofdhurani, feminine man who takes the so-called “passive” role in sex with men, and parikh, masculine man of whatever sexual orientation, but who takes the so-called ‘active’ role in sex with men.
  9. ^ Greenberg, David. The Construction of Homosexuality. Chicago, Illinois:University of Chicago Press, 486-487. ISBN 0-226-30628-3.
  10. ^ Sexual Identity Development and Synthesis among LGB-Identified and LGB Dis-Identified Persons.; Journal article by Mark A. Yarhouse, Erica S.N. Tan, Lisa M. Pawlowski; Journal of Psychology and Theology, Vol. 33, 2005 http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=H9hL2Qb2lV2kQnpGtXTrZzXGkMPhJ0TVXRzfT8hSw316CbPsWW8S!-1788132937?docId=5009356549
  11. ^ Review of Book "Sex and the Gender Revolution, Volume One: Heterosexuality and the Third Gender in Enlightenment London, by Randolph Trumbach chicago, University of Chicago Press, 1998. (xiv), 509 pp.; Reviewer: Lesley A. Hall of Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine, London. http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/trumbach.htm
  12. ^ The Changing social construction of western male homosexuality: Association with worsening youth suicide problems: chapter: Male homosexuality: from commonality to rarity; By Pierre J. Tremblay & Richard Ramsay Faculty of Social Work, University of Calgary. http://youth-suicide.com/gay-bisexual/construction/3-gay-youth-suicide-homosexuality-rare.htm
  13. ^ The Changing social construction of western male homosexuality: Association with worsening youth suicide problems: chapter: Male homosexuality: from commonality to rarity
  14. ^ [http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/metadata.epl?mode=synopsis&bookkey=187941 Picturing Men A Century of Male Relationships in Everyday American Photography] by John Ibson, The University of Chicago Press
  15. ^ Review of Book "Sex and the Gender Revolution, Volume One: Heterosexuality and the Third Gender in Enlightenment London, by Randolph Trumbach, Chicago, University of Chicago Press, 1998. (xiv), 509 pp.; Reviewer: Lesley A. Hall of Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine, London. http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/trumbach.htm
  16. ^ Mollies Arrested in London: Gayhistory.com http://www.gayhistory.com/rev2/factfiles/ff1726.htm
  17. ^ Negotiating Gender: Calalai' in Bugis Society: Sharyn Graham; also, Bissu are gender transcendent, pre-Islamic priests. See Leonard Andaya, 'The Bissu: Study of a Third Gender in Indonesia', in Other Pasts: Women, Gender, and History in Early Modern Southeast Asia, ed. Barbara Andaya, Hawai'i: Hawai'i University Press, 2000:27-46.
  18. ^ Worlds of Gender: the Archaeology of Women's lives around the globe by Sarah Milledge Nelson, published by Altamira press 2007
  19. ^ Confessions of an American - My Life in a New Delhi Gym Quote: In their masculinity they’re identical to their American counterparts – until you notice that they can’t seem to keep their hands off each other. The easy physical contact which many Indian males have with their friends reaches its apogee at the gym, whose raison d’être is after all the body beautiful. As they pass each other, the trainers touch each other’s hands or chests, or they walk through the workout area together with their arms slung round each other’s shoulders.
  20. ^ Seeing Males Together: Brokeback Mountain and Picturing Men The Chicago Blog, Publicity news from the University of Chicago Press including news tips, press releases, reviews, and intelligent commentary
  21. ^ Imams and homosexuality. A post-gay debate in The Netherlands (1) Quote: The traditionality of Moroccan culture and its ubiquitous but hidden homosexuality have very much contributed to sexual pleasures of white gay (Green, 1992) and local men in Morocco to this day.
  22. ^ Tim Reid (2002-01-22). "Kandahar Men Return to Original Love: Teenage Boys". Fox News. Retrieved 2008-04-20.
  23. ^ Brian James Baer (April 2007). "Closely watched Pashtuns-a critique of western journalists' reporting bias about "Gay Kandahar"" (PDF). Pukaar, the journal of Naz Foundation International. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{cite web}}: line feed character in |title= at position 60 (help)
  24. ^ Peter A. Jackson (April 1996). "Non-normative Sex/Gender Categories in the Theravada Buddhist Scriptures". Australian Humanities review. Retrieved 2008-04-20.
  25. ^ Kathoey: The term kathoey or katoey (Thai: กะเทย, IPA: [kaʔtʰɤːj]) generally refers to a male-to-female transsexual person or an effeminate gay male in Thailand.
  26. ^ Imams and homosexuality. A post-gay debate in The Netherlands (1) Quote: Censure in traditional Moroccan society is directed mainly to those men who enjoy the passive roles. For them, Moroccan Arabic has several words such as zamel, m'haoui, hassass and attay but none for the active partners who do not lose their honour for fucking men or boys (id, 152).
  27. ^ It's what you do: most of the men who have sex with men in the South probably don't identify themselves as `gay' or `bisexual'; Internationalist, Oct, 2000 by Jeremy Seabrook
  28. ^ a b Male Homosexuality and Popular Culture in Modern Japan; by Mark McLelland; Murdoch University [1]
  29. ^ a b Struggles for sexual, gender liberation rooted in national liberation movements, Lavender & red, part 113, By Leslie Feinberg, [2]
  30. ^ [5&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=45c690ecbe38bf32e742c5a2307d0499 The social construction of male ‘homosexuality’ in India: implications for HIV transmission and prevention] Sheena Asthana, a and Robert Oostvogelsb; a Department of Social Policy and Social Work, University of Plymouth, Drake Circus, Plymouth PL4 8AA, UK b AIDS and Anthropology Group, Anthropological Sociological Center, University of Amsterdam, Oudezijds Achterburgwal 185, 1012 DK Amsterdam, Netherlands; Abstract: Over the past 20 years, there has been a growing recognition of the relativity of sexual norms and of the difficulties of exporting Western conceptions of sexuality to different socio-cultural settings. This view has been most clearly articulated in studies of men who have sex with men (MSM) which suggest that the ways in which male–male sexual activity is shaped and constituted vary significantly from place to place. Despite this, ‘homosexuality’ continues to be treated as an unproblematic category in HIV/AIDS discourse, epidemiological studies of and HIV prevention strategies for MSM in widely different contexts being based on the North American/West European example of gay men. This paper, which draws upon ethnographic research in Madras, highlights important differences between India and the West, not only in the sexual identities and circuits of MSM, but in their sexual partnerships and practices. These differences, it is argued, are not only significant to the epidemiology of HIV transmission, but have important implications for the development and implementation of HIV prevention strategies.

External links