Talk:Seppuku

Hara Kiri

I do not know much about it yet I remember there being two distinct forms of ritual suicide. The first one was hara-kiri, where an individual would disembowel himself and let himself bleed to death most painfully. Later on, they changed it to seppuku (supposedly for a more merciful and less painless death) where the person will make a swift stab into himself before being decapitated by another. I may have the names wrong yet I am sure this is how it began and how it changed.

Page one

I'm adding jpatokal's two paragraphs to the article with some minor edits. Someone could edit the style if they want, to make it more sutiable as an encyclopedia entry.

Also: "To distinguish the decapitation from a common execution, a trusted and skilled samurai was chosen to strike the blow, from behind, leaving the head attached to the body by a flap of skin at the front of the neck."

Yes, I've heard of this, Exploding Boy. However, I don't have any sources to confirm it. I only read some novels and heard it from otaku friends.

I'm adding a part of the deleted section back in.

About the "not cutting the whole head", it is true. I'm currently practicing the Jikishinkageryu style of Kenjutsu. We have a move in the first kata which was explained to me as the act of cutting off the head of a samurai comitting seppuku. It was pointed out that control had to be exercised, for letting the head fall would be a disrespect to the dead warrior. I'll try to dig some online sources for that Claus Aranha 11:52, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

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Question to Hokanomono I see you have reverted my recent change, however to my best knowlage what i've changed was correct. Are you certian that the previous version is the correct one? I know for a fact seppuku does not mean to cut one's stomach, harakiri is the word. I do not belive it was wise to change it back.

• As far as I know, I didn't change it back. All I did was adding the Kanji again. Please check the current version and tell me what's wrong, or just correct it. --Hokanomono 07:34, 2004 Jun 28 (UTC)

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Which article should be the main one, and which the redirect? I prefer seppuku as the main article, with hara-kiri redirecting to it. Ed Poor

"Hara-kiri" is what it is most widely known as in English, so that's where the article should be. --Zundark, 2002 Jan 11

There should be two entries, one for hara-kiri and one for seppuku. The former describes the usage of a word, the latter a form of honourable suicide. It is not as if both mean exactly the same (assuming the description is correct).--branko

The English dictionaries I've looked at just define "seppuku" as "hara-kiri". English usage is not the same as Japanese. --Zundark, 2002 Jan 11

I'm not in favour of perpetuating errors. The term hara-kiri came into common knowledge during WWII, along with a number of other derogatory terms. Common use, for me, only prevavils in chosing among a number of correct options. Article under seppuku, with redirect at hara-kiri. Noel 15:15, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

We don't list the Unification Church as the "Moonies", just because it's the best known, right? If correctness or npov isn't an issue, then common usage should prevail, but I think npov and correctness should come first. --Dmerrill

But the idea that "seppuku" is more correct than "hara-kiri" in English is itself non-NPOV. English dictionaries note that the word "Moonies" is colloquial (and often derogatory), but they don't do so for "hara-kiri" (at least, not the ones I've looked at). --Zundark, 2002 Jan 11

This is an encyclopedia, though, and so we should have article under the more "scholarly" word. Students looking up "hara-kiri" for use in a homework assignment will probably benefit more by having the article under "seppuku". I don't know how that works, it just makes sense to me. It is the more honorable word, anyway.-- Dreamyshade

I voice agreement with Dreamyshade. This should be under seppuku and hara-kiri should redirect there. Since both are borrowed words and both should be borrowed correctly since this is a NPOV 'pedia. The article that has the redirect should be the colloquial, not the correct form. Therefore, I shall move the article *back* to seppuku and make Hara-Kiri the redirect. Emperorbma

P.S. Wikipedia exists to spread facts, not perpetuate a mistake of borrowing from another language. Since both terms are now (interchangably) used in English, the article which houses the information should be the correct term as it was in the original language, not the incorrectly borrowed slang. Potentially insulting the Japanese user base by calling it by hara-kiri is not advisable in this forum. Emperorbma 07:57 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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Should the article mention that hara-kiri and seppuku are "spelled" the same in Japanese, just with the kanji in the opposite order? I think that's a kinda `fun fact`... Well, as fun as suicide gets. -- Carl

I don't know about "fun", but it's worth mentioning - or should I say, pointing out, since the kanji for both words is in the article already. (Although the kanji for "hara-kiri" appears to have an extra 'syllable'.) —Paul A 01:14, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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I have doubts about the following paragraph:

"To distinguish the decapitation from a common execution, a trusted and skilled samurai was chosen to strike the blow, from behind, leaving the head attached to the body by a flap of skin at the front of the neck."

can anyone confirm or deny? Exploding Boy 13:43, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I think I see what you mean... Maybe one could be a little less explicit. Probably the main point here is not to separate head and body entirely, which could be enough of a description. --Markus Krötzsch 22:07, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's not the explicitness that bothers me, it's whether or not it's actually true. Exploding Boy 04:13, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)

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The photo is interesting, but where is it from? (I know it's scanned from a book, but is it kabuki?) Exploding Boy 10:20, Mar 28, 2004 (UTC)

Anyone? Anyone? Exploding Boy 04:13, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)

Until we find out I think we should remove this photo. Any objections? Exploding Boy 07:49, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)

daki-kubi

Is daki-kubi the knife, or a technique, or both? I'm confused by the usage in the article. FZ 17:30, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Removed

This paragraph is suspect:

    To distinguish the decapitation from a common [[execution (legal)
    |execution]], a trusted and skilled samurai was chosen to strike the 
    blow, from behind, leaving the head attached to the body by a flap of 
    skin at the front of the neck. This kind of cut is called daki-kubi. The 
    second was usually but not always, a friend; e.g. if a warrior had fought 
    honourably and well but lost, an opponent who wanted to salute his 
    bravery would volunteer to act as his second.

I've never heard of this. Any sources? 07:49, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)

Seppuku

I have corrected a miskake. Seppuku still happen ocasionally so Mishima is obviously not the last. FWBOarticle

Who? And when? Exploding Boy 05:59, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Mishima was the last famous person to do so; you don't know if someone hasn't done it since. Just not anyone famous. However, I did think that Mishima was the last recorded incidence of seppuku, so perhaps not so irrelevant. Well, FWBOarticle? --Golbez 06:17, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)

What is FWBO? It is not irrelevant because if anyone else had committed seppuku it would have been all over the news all around the world. I just don't think it's true. Do you have references? Exploding Boy 06:26, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)

ah, the last one I remember someone done it was about 6 years ago. Sony decided to restructure their workforce. One of the senior worker went up to CEO's office and committed harakiri as a protest and died. Harakiri does happen sporadically and it is not that too big deal. Oh, and when Hirohito died, some nutty rightwinger did that as well. I'm quite sure at least one guy will do it when the current one dies. FWBOarticle 09:47, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

TakuyaMurata deleted risutora seppuku. I reverted it. His reason was "del seppuku in 1999; it may imply that seppuku is still practiced today)". Whether the incident concerned fall into the definition of seppuku is POV. The paragraph made no misleading information in this regard. It merely stated that the guy slashed his own stomach and it was dubbed by the media as risutora seppluku. Plus, there is good likelyhood that at least one ultra nationalist will commit seppuku when the current emperor pass away. FWBOarticle 01:24, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I am not disputing on accuracy but about relevancy. The guy who commited Seppuku is not famous and citing it does not allow us to make some point. Also, I couldn't find references for risutora seppuku and I don't think that drew much public attention. Finally, I love to see a mention that some people may have commited seppuku when the last emperor passed away but not for the current one, because he is still alive. -- Taku 02:11, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

The fact that this thing still happen is relevant enough. I accept that it is very rare. Oh, do you remember a book called "Kanzen Jisatu Mannual". The book listed number of case of seppuku which wasn't widely reported. As of committing Sepuku at the death of emperor, one ultra nationalist did it at Yasukuni Jinjya when Akihito died. It was in the news. It's a kind of tradition and honour thing so when the current one dies, at least one uyoku probably have to do it to keep their face. FWBOarticle 06:08, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Oh and this one http://www.careerjournalasia.com/hrcenter/articles/19990326-shirouzu.html

Spin

This article puts a slightly too positive/unreal spin on seppuku (I blame James Clavell).

First, cases of truly voluntary seppuku are very rare, usually it was just a de facto death sentence decided by others. Cases of people having to be tied up, physically dragged to the place of execution and forced to kneel in order to have their head cut off far outnumber people composing cherry blossom-laded death poems in a tranquil grove before disemboweling themselves with nary a grunt. Nearly all Western eyewitness accounts fall in the first category.

• • from Dr. Turnbull's book:

"When Kamakura was captured in 1333, an operation that will be described in detail later in this chapter, we read of many acts of suicide, including this classic account of junshi:

The retainers who were left behind ran out to the middle gate, crying aloud, ‘Our lord has killed himself. Let all loyal men accompany him! Then these twenty lit a fire in the mansion, quickly lined up together in the smoke and cut their bellies. And not willing to be outdone, three hundred other warriors cut their bellies and leapt into the consuming flames." -MASARU 5/2/2005

Yes, in 1333. Was Dr. Turnbull there to witness it? I don't think so, it's just a nice fairy tale. Jpatokal 13:54, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

• see the other ten examples i gave, if you dont like that one. I can cite DOZENS of individual and mass seppuku occurring. If you do a search for the word "seppuku" on wikipedia, many examples come up.
• considering that the victors wrote the history books, and there were plenty of eye witnesses, I find it completely beleivable. You are just mad because you got caught not doing your research. MASARU 5/3/2005

Second, it's only an "honorable" death sentence in the same way as a guillotine is preferable to hanging -- it's still considered a terrible disgrace. Any lord sentenced to seppuku would see his estate confiscated, samurai turned into ronin and family reduced to penury. Jpatokal 08:12, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• not only was it considered an honor, they wrote about it and spoke of it (see below). I have hesitated to incorporate MORE of Turnbull's work because I didnt want to overwrite the contributions of others, but seeing the lame ignorance here, i now feel free to do so. Masaru 5/3/2005

"In the world of the warrior, seppuku was a deed of bravery that was admirable in a samurai who knew he was defeated, disgraced, or mortally wounded. It meant that he could end his days with his transgressions wiped away and with his reputation not merely intact but actually enhanced. The cutting of the abdomen released the samurai’s spirit in the most dramatic fashion, but it was an extremely painful and unpleasant way to die, and sometimes the samurai who was performing the act asked a loyal comrade to cut off his head at the moment of agony."

• sorry, but I'd rather listen to what the world's foremost expert on Samurai and a Ambassador who was really there have to say about the topic..

More probable junk: Often a samurai committing seppuku would use the blood from his own abdomen to write his death poem. This was especially common when they samurai lost his battle, or his master was killed. Source? The interval between cutting the stomach and the second disposing of your head was usually measured in seconds. "

Jpatokal 04:25, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• plenty of examples exist of precisely this happening.:

"After the battle of Yamazaki in 1582 Akechi Mitsutoshi performed the unprecedented act of committing seppuku and writing a poem on the door with the blood from his abdomen, using a brush. Minamoto Yorimasa’s classic act of seppuku was performed without the aid of a kaishaku, or second, to deliver a merciful blow on to his neck at the moment of agony"'

Take note of the archeologist excavations verifying this mass slaughter:

At Kamakura the defeated Hojo had more time to prepare, and the Taiheiki recounts the process in detail. So, for example, we read how a certain warrior monk called Fuonji Shinnin wrote a poem on a pillar inside a temple using his own blood while he committed seppuku. It read:

Wait awhile Traversing together the road of Shideyama Let us talk of the transient world. Another monk used his trousers as a writing surface for his death poem with the words:

Holding the trenchant hair-splitter He severs emptiness Within the mighty flames A pure cool breeze.

The monk then commanded his son to decapitate him. After performing the deed, the tearful son took the long sword and plunged it through his own body. At this three of their retainers ran up and impaled themselves in turn on the protruding blade, so that they fell down 'with their heads in a row like fish on a skewer' as the Taiheiki so eloquently puts it. Women too committed suicide as the news of the fall of Kamakura spread:

Heedless of men’s eyes, the weeping nurse called Osai ran after him barefoot for five or six hundred yards, falling down to the ground again and again ... And when her eyes beheld him no longer, the nurse Osai cast her body into a deep well and perished.

It was only fitting that the closest members of the Hojo family should perform the most dramatic act of suicide. They withdrew from their positions to a temple called the Toshoji, a rather ironic name which means 'the temple of the victory in the east'. Here, they made ready to commit suicide in the privacy of a cave dug out of the rock at the rear within the temple compound. The Toshoji no longer exists, but the so-called 'hara kiri cave' is still there, and although it lies in a remote wooded spot on the fringe of the city centre, it still attracts many pilgrims. It is rare to visit it and not see fresh flowers left as an offering.

Several of the senior family members were concerned that their leader Hojo Takatoki would not have the courage to commit hara kiri himself, so the others decided to set a precedent. Inside the temple, one samurai 'cut his body with a long cut from left to right and fell down, pulling out his intestines ...'. Nearby another exemplary suicide took place between a grandfather and his grandson. Nagasaki Shin'uemon, a young boy 15 years old that year, bowed before his grandfather saying, 'Assuredly will the Buddhas and kami give sanction to this deed. The filial descendant is he who brings honour to the name of his father.' With two thrusts of his dagger he slashed the veins of his aged grandfather's arms. He then cut his own belly, pushing his grandfather down and fell on top of him.

The young boy's example provided the stimulus that Hojo Takatoki needed, and he too committed seppuku. The Taiheiki gives a number of 283 ‘men of the Hojo’ who took their lives in the Toshoji. That number was to grow, because:

a fire was lighted in the hall, where from fierce flames leapt up and black smoke darkened the sky. When the warriors in the courtyard and before the gate beheld that fire, some among them cut their bellies and ran into the flames, while others smote one another with their swords and fell down together in a heap, fathers, sons and brothers. As a great river was the rushing of their blood; as on a burial field were their dead bodies laid everywhere in heaps! Although the bodies of these disappeared in the flames, later it was known that more than eight hundred and seventy men perished in this one place.

As the news spread into Kamakura itself, many more people followed the Hojo in death – ‘more than six thousand persons’ says the Taiheiki. Thus passed the Hojo regency in a massive bloodbath almost unparalleled in samurai history. They were the family who had defeated the Mongols and presided over one of the most peaceful centuries in Japanese history. But when they departed out of history they did so in an unprecedented fashion that exceeded the demands made by samurai tradition.

Evidence of how fierce the fighting at Kamakura really was has recently come to light with the excavation and analysis of grave pits in the Zaimokuza area, a district near the sea where the Hojo made their last stand. Many skulls and fragments of weapons have been found, which have been studied by archaeologists. The pattern of wounds to the head indicate that none of the victims wore much in the way of head protection, which inclines one to the view that these grave pits were mass burial grounds for the common soldiers. The samurai were buried elsewhere, and for centuries there was a traditional belief in Kamakura that many were interred in burial caves in the hills. The local rock is quite soft, and there are 50 or so burial niches in the walls of the Shakado Tunnel, which was cut through a hill leading to the north-east of Kamakura in about 1250. In 1965 the tradition of victims of the battle being buried here was confirmed when a landslip revealed a tombstone bearing the very date, 10 July 1333, when the city fell to Nitta Yoshisada.

Regardless of the spin you put on Seppuku, you have to go back to the basic premise of the Samurai Belief System. The Samurai believed that their death was the greatest testament to their life (Read Hagakure). That meant it was the highest honor to die in the service of a cause regardless if that cause was achieved or not. We all die, but it was considered shameful to die randomly or in a fashion that was not of choice. And When your life could no longer serve a valuable purpose because of injury or shame, it was considered good form to end your life with seppuku. This was considered superior than living a life of shame or handicap, being a burden on all around. This is the spirit of true integrity, unfortunately these days our culture would rather tolerate deception over bloodshed, both have always plaqued our species. -Kevin Douglass

Interesting, but Hagakure was written by a grumpy bureacrat who fantasized about being a warrior and only managed to romanticize it.

Seppuku was common

Seppuku was not only common, you could actually have the option to perform it voluntarily without being ordered, and yes, some people chose to bleed out for half an hour. This type of Seppuku had a special name. See the two links I added to Mitford's detailed descrption. http://www.blackmask.com/thatway/books162c/taja.htm

This wikipedia entry is missing key parts of the description of seppuku and has a negative, if any spin, not a positive one. Masaru 4/30/2005

• the number of people committing Junshi became so great, that it had to be banned by shogunal decree in the Buke Sho hatto of 1663.

People who killed themsleves got to keep their property unless confiscation was ordered specifically

http://www.blackmask.com/thatway/books162c/taja.htm

From Tales of Old Japan:

3rd. Self-immolation of a Daimio on account of disgrace.—When a Daimio had been guilty of treason or offended against the Tycoon, inasmuch as the family was disgraced, and an apology could neither be offered nor accepted, the offending Daimio was condemned to hara-kiri. Calling his councillors around him, he confided to them his last will and testament for transmission to the Tycoon. Then, clothing himself in his court dress, he disembowelled himself, and cut his own throat. His councillors then reported the matter to the Government, and a coroner was sent to investigate it. To him the retainers handed the last will and testament of their lord, and be took it to the Gorojiu (first council), who transmitted it to the Tycoon. If the offence was heinous, such as would involve the ruin of the whole family, by the clemency of the Tycoon, half the property might be confiscated, and half returned to the heir; if the offence was trivial, the property was inherited intact by the heir, and the family did not suffer.

In all cases where the criminal disembowels himself of his own accord without condemnation and without investigation, inasmuch as he is no longer able to defend himself, the offence is considered as non-proven, and the property is not confiscated. In the year 1869 a motion was brought forward in the Japanese parliament by one Ono Seigoro, clerk of the house, advocating the abolition of the practice of hara-kiri. Two hundred members out of a house of 209 voted against the motion, which was supported by only three speakers, six members not voting on either side. In this debate the seppuku, or hara-kiri, was called “the very shrine of the Japanese national spirit, and the embodiment in practice of devotion to principle,” “a great ornament to the empire,” “a pillar of the constitution,” “a valuable institution, tending to the honour of the nobles, and based on a compassionate feeling towards the official caste,” “a pillar of religion and a spur to virtue.” The whole debate (which is well worth reading, and an able translation of which by Mr. Aston has appeared in a recent Blue Book) shows the affection with which the Japanese cling to the traditions of a chivalrous past. It is worthy of notice that the proposer, Ono Seigoro, who on more than one occasion rendered himself conspicuous by introducing motions based upon an admiration of our Western civilization, was murdered not long after this debate took place.

Mitford was the first westerner to witness and write about Seppuku

FROM TALES OF OLD JAPAN http://www.blackmask.com/thatway/books162c/taja.htm As a corollary to the above elaborate statement of the ceremonies proper to be observed at the hara-kiri, I may here describe an instance of such an execution which I was sent officially to witness. The condemned man was Taki Zenzaburo, an officer of the Prince of Bizen, who gave the order to fire upon the foreign settlement at Hiogo in the month of February 1868,—an attack to which I have alluded in the preamble to the story of the Eta Maiden and the Hatamoto. Up to that time no foreigner had witnessed such an execution, which was rather looked upon as a traveller's fable.

The ceremony, which was ordered by the Mikado himself, took place at 10.30 at night in the temple of Seifukuji, the headquarters of the Satsuma troops at Hiogo. A witness was sent from each of the foreign legations. We were seven foreigners in all.

We were conducted to the temple by officers of the Princes of Satsuma and Choshiu. Although the ceremony was to be conducted in the most private manner, the casual remarks which we overheard in the streets, and a crowd lining the principal entrance to the temple, showed that it was a matter of no little interest to the public. The courtyard of the temple presented a most picturesque sight; it was crowded with soldiers standing about in knots round large fires, which threw a dim flickering light over the heavy eaves and quaint gable-ends of the sacred buildings. We were shown into an inner room, where we were to wait until the preparation for the ceremony was completed: in the next room to us were the high Japanese officers. After a long interval, which seemed doubly long from the silence which prevailed, Ito Shunske, the provisional Governor of Hiogo, came and took down our names, and informed us that seven kenshi, sheriffs or witnesses, would attend on the part of the Japanese. He and another officer represented the Mikado; two captains of Satsuma's infantry, and two of Choshiu's, with a representative of the Prince of Bizen, the clan of the condemned man, completed the number, which was probably arranged in order to tally with that of the foreigners. Ito Shunske further inquired whether we wished to put any questions to the prisoner. We replied in the negative.

A further delay then ensued, after which we were invited to follow the Japanese witnesses into the hondo or main hall of the temple, where the ceremony was to be performed. It was an imposing scene. A large hall with a high roof supported by dark pillars of wood. From the ceiling hung a profusion of those huge gilt lamps and ornaments peculiar to Buddhist temples. In front of the high altar, where the floor, covered with beautiful white mats, is raised some three or four inches from the ground, was laid a rug of scarlet felt. Tall candles placed at regular intervals gave out a dim mysterious light, just sufficient to let all the proceedings be seen. The seven Japanese took their places on the left of the raised floor, the seven foreigners on the right. No other person was present.

After an interval of a few minutes of anxious suspense, Taki Zenzaburo, a stalwart man, thirty-two years of age, with a noble air, walked into the hall attired in his dress of ceremony, with the peculiar hempen-cloth wings which are worn on great occasions. He was accompanied by a kaishaku and three officers, who wore the jimbaori or war surcoat with gold-tissue facings. The word kaishaku, it should be observed, is one to which our word executioner is no equivalent term. The office is that of a gentleman: in many cases it is performed by a kinsman or friend of the condemned, and the relation between them is rather that of principal and second than that of victim and executioner. In this instance the kaishaku was a pupil of Taki Zenzaburo, and was selected by the friends of the latter from among their own number for his skill in swordsmanship.

With the kaishaku on his left hand, Taki Zenzaburo advanced slowly towards the Japanese witnesses, and the two bowed before them, then drawing near to the foreigners they saluted us in the same way, perhaps even with more deference: in each case the salutation was ceremoniously returned. Slowly, and with great dignity, the condemned man mounted on to the raised floor, prostrated himself before the high altar twice, and seated[112] himself on the felt carpet with his back to the high altar, the kaishaku crouching on his left-hand side. One of the three attendant officers then came forward, bearing a stand of the kind used in temples for offerings, on which, wrapped in paper, lay the wakizashi, the short sword or dirk of the Japanese, nine inches and a half in length, with a point and an edge as sharp as a razor's. This he handed, prostrating himself, to the condemned man, who received it reverently, raising it to his head with both hands, and placed it in front of himself.

[Footnote 112: Seated himself—that is, in the Japanese fashion, his knees and toes touching the ground, and his body resting on his heels. In this position, which is one of respect, he remained until his death.]

After another profound obeisance, Taki Zenzaburo, in a voice which betrayed just so much emotion and hesitation as might be expected from a man who is making a painful confession, but with no sign of either in his face or manner, spoke as follows:—

“I, and I alone, unwarrantably gave the order to fire on the foreigners at Kobe, and again as they tried to escape. For this crime I disembowel myself, and I beg you who are present to do me the honour of witnessing the act.”

Bowing once more, the speaker allowed his upper garments to slip down to his girdle, and remained naked to the waist. Carefully, according to custom, he tucked his sleeves under his knees to prevent himself from falling backwards; for a noble Japanese gentleman should die falling forwards. Deliberately, with a steady hand, he took the dirk that lay before him; he looked at it wistfully, almost affectionately; for a moment he seemed to collect his thoughts for the last time, and then stabbing himself deeply below the waist on the left-hand side, he drew the dirk slowly across to the right side, and, turning it in the wound, gave a slight cut upwards. During this sickeningly painful operation he never moved a muscle of his face. When he drew out the dirk, he leaned forward and stretched out his neck; an expression of pain for the first time crossed his face, but he uttered no sound. At that moment the kaishaku, who, still crouching by his side, had been keenly watching his every movement, sprang to his feet, poised his sword for a second in the air; there was a flash, a heavy, ugly thud, a crashing fall; with one blow the head had been severed from the body.

A dead silence followed, broken only by the hideous noise of the blood throbbing out of the inert heap before us, which but a moment before had been a brave and chivalrous man. It was horrible.

The kaishaku made a low bow, wiped his sword with a piece of paper which he had ready for the purpose, and retired from the raised floor; and the stained dirk was solemnly borne away, a bloody proof of the execution.

The two representatives of the Mikado then left their places, and, crossing over to where the foreign witnesses sat, called us to witness that the sentence of death upon Taki Zenzaburo had been faithfully carried out. The ceremony being at an end, we left the temple.

The ceremony, to which the place and the hour gave an additional solemnity, was characterized throughout by that extreme dignity and punctiliousness which are the distinctive marks of the proceedings of Japanese gentlemen of rank; and it is important to note this fact, because it carries with it the conviction that the dead man was indeed the officer who had committed the crime, and no substitute. While profoundly impressed by the terrible scene it was impossible at the same time not to be filled with admiration of the firm and manly bearing of the sufferer, and of the nerve with which the kaishaku performed his last duty to his master. Nothing could more strongly show the force of education. The Samurai, or gentleman of the military class, from his earliest years learns to look upon the hara-kiri as a ceremony in which some day he may be called upon to play a part as principal or second. In old-fashioned families, which hold to the traditions of ancient chivalry, the child is instructed in the rite and familiarized with the idea as an honourable expiation of crime or blotting out of disgrace. If the hour comes, he is prepared for it, and gravely faces an ordeal which early training has robbed of half its horrors. In what other country in the world does a man learn that the last tribute of affection which he may have to pay to his best friend may be to act as his executioner?

Since I wrote the above, we have heard that, before his entry into the fatal hall, Taki Zenzaburo called round him all those of his own clan who were present, many of whom had carried out his order to fire, and, addressing them in a short speech, acknowledged the heinousness of his crime and the justice of his sentence, and warned them solemnly to avoid any repetition of attacks upon foreigners. They were also addressed by the officers of the Mikado, who urged them to bear no ill-will against us on account of the fate of their fellow-clansman. They declared that they entertained no such feeling.

The opinion has been expressed that it would have been politic for the foreign representatives at the last moment to have interceded for the life of Taki Zenzaburo. The question is believed to have been debated among the representatives themselves. My own belief is that mercy, although it might have produced the desired effect among the more civilized clans, would have been mistaken for weakness and fear by those wilder people who have not yet a personal knowledge of foreigners. The offence—an attack upon the flags and subjects of all the Treaty Powers, which lack of skill, not of will, alone prevented from ending in a universal massacre—was the gravest that has been committed upon foreigners since their residence in Japan. Death was undoubtedly deserved, and the form chosen was in Japanese eyes merciful and yet judicial. The crime might have involved a war and cost hundreds of lives; it was wiped out by one death. I believe that, in the interest of Japan as well as in our own, the course pursued was wise, and it was very satisfactory to me to find that one of the ablest Japanese ministers, with whom I had a discussion upon the subject, was quite of my opinion.

Mitford Describes how the shooting occurred:

It will be long before those who were present at the newly opened port of Kobe on the 4th of February, 1868, will forget that day. The civil war was raging, and the foreign Legations, warned by the flames of burning villages, no less than by the flight of the Shogun and his ministers, had left Osaka, to take shelter at Kobe, where they were not, as at the former place, separated from their ships by more than twenty miles of road, occupied by armed troops in a high state of excitement, with the alternative of crossing in tempestuous weather a dangerous bar, which had already taken much valuable life. It was a fine winter's day, and the place was full of bustle, and of the going and coming of men busy with the care of housing themselves and their goods and chattels. All of a sudden, a procession of armed men, belonging to the Bizen clan, was seen to leave the town, and to advance along the high road leading to Osaka; and without apparent reason—it was said afterwards that two Frenchmen had crossed the line of march—there was a halt, a stir, and a word of command given. Then the little clouds of white smoke puffed up, and the sharp “ping” of the rifle bullets came whizzing over the open space, destined for a foreign settlement, as fast as the repeating breech-loaders could be discharged. Happily, the practice was very bad; for had the men of Bizen been good shots, almost all the principal foreign officials in the country, besides many merchants and private gentlemen, must have been killed: as it was, only two or three men were wounded. If they were bad marksmen, however, they were mighty runners; for they soon found that they had attacked a hornets' nest. In an incredibly short space of time, the guards of the different Legations and the sailors and marines from the ships of war were in hot chase after the enemy, who were scampering away over the hills as fast as their legs could carry them, leaving their baggage ingloriously scattered over the road, as many a cheap lacquered hat and flimsy paper cartridge-box, preserved by our Blue Jackets as trophies, will testify. So good was the stampede, that the enemy's loss amounted only to one aged coolie, who, being too decrepit to run, was taken prisoner, after having had seventeen revolver shots fired at him without effect; and the only injury that our men inflicted was upon a solitary old woman, who was accidently shot through the leg.

If it had not been for the serious nature of the offence given, which was an attack upon the flags of all the treaty Powers, and for the terrible retribution which was of necessity exacted, the whole affair would have been recollected chiefly for the ludicrous events which it gave rise to. The mounted escort of the British Legation executed a brilliant charge of cavalry down an empty road; a very pretty line of skirmishers along the fields fired away a great deal of ammunition with no result; earthworks were raised, and Kobe was held in military occupation for three days, during which there were alarms, cutting-out expeditions with armed boats, steamers seized, and all kinds of martial effervescence. In fact, it was like fox-hunting: it had “all the excitement of war, with only ten per cent. of the danger.”

The first thought of the kind-hearted doctor of the British Legation was for the poor old woman who had been wounded, and was bemoaning herself piteously. When she was carried in, a great difficulty arose, which, I need hardly say, was overcome; for the poor old creature belonged to the Etas, the Pariah race, whose presence pollutes the house even of the poorest and humblest Japanese; and the native servants strongly objected to her being treated as a human being, saying that the Legation would be for ever defiled if she were admitted within its sacred precincts. No account of Japanese society would be complete without a notice of the Etas; and the following story shows well, I think, the position which they hold.

And then there is the story of Takamatsu Castle

Where a retainer of the feudal Lord in the castle, seeing that the end is near, approaches his master and tells him that Hara-kiri isn't as painful as people say. When the lord asks him "How do you know?" The man says "because I have already done it. With that, he opened his robe to show his lord the fatal cut. The Lord is encouraged by his retainer's bravery and kills himself too. That is a famous story in Japanese history. Masaru 5/1/2005

Stephen Turnbull on seppuku

The samurai way of death--Samurai: The World of the Warrior

http://www.ospreysamurai.com/samurai_death02.htm

In the world of the warrior, seppuku was a deed of bravery that was admirable in a samurai who knew he was defeated, disgraced, or mortally wounded. It meant that he could end his days with his transgressions wiped away and with his reputation not merely intact but actually enhanced. The cutting of the abdomen released the samurai’s spirit in the most dramatic fashion, but it was an extremely painful and unpleasant way to die, and sometimes the samurai who was performing the act asked a loyal comrade to cut off his head at the moment of agony.

(excerpt) Minamoto Yorimasa’s sequence of poem and suicide was followed many times in later history. After the battle of Yamazaki in 1582 Akechi Mitsutoshi performed the unprecedented act of committing seppuku and writing a poem on the door with the blood from his abdomen, using a brush. Minamoto Yorimasa’s classic act of seppuku was performed without the aid of a kaishaku, or second, to deliver a merciful blow on to his neck at the moment of agony

(excerpt) When Kamakura was captured in 1333, an operation that will be described in detail later in this chapter, we read of many acts of suicide, including this classic account of junshi:

The retainers who were left behind ran out to the middle gate, crying aloud, ‘Our lord has killed himself. Let all loyal men accompany him! Then these twenty lit a fire in the mansion, quickly lined up together in the smoke and cut their bellies. And not willing to be outdone, three hundred other warriors cut their bellies and leapt into the consuming flames.

There are examples of junshi being performed even before the daimyo was dead. Shortly before Shimizu Muneharu's dramatic suicide on the artificial lake of Takamatsu in 1582, one of his retainers invited Muneharu to his room. The loyal retainer explained that he wished to reassure his master about the ease with which seppuku could be performed. He explained that he had in fact already committed suicide, and, pulling aside his robe, showed Muneharu his severed abdomen. Muneharu was touched by the gesture, and acted as his retainer's second to bring the act to a speedy and less painful conclusion by cutting off the man's head.

(excerpt) As the description earlier in this book of the mass suicide by drowning at Dan no Ura shows, seppuku was not the only way of ending a samurai’s life, and may have been a tradition espoused only by eastern Japan until after the time of the Gempei War. No member of the Taira family is recorded as having committed seppuku. In other cases of alternative suicide the choice of how to end one’s life was dictated by circumstances. When Imai Kanehira committed suicide at the battle of Awazu in 1184 he was surrounded by enemies, so he killed himself quickly by jumping head first from his horse with his sword in his mouth.

Suicide and motivation

There are several instances in samurai history of suicide being performed as a result of personal failure. Here the samurai would commit sokotsu-shi, or 'expiatory suicide', the very act itself wiping the slate clean. Some later examples are quite bizarre. Legend tells us that Togo Shigechika had failed to capture a certain castle, so had himself buried alive, fully armoured and mounted on his horse, staring in the direction of his failure. Other decisions to act in this way could be spontaneous and dramatic, like the action of the veteran warrior Yamamoto Kansuke at the fourth battle of Kawanakajima in 1561. As Takeda Shingen's chief strategist he had devised the plan by which the Takeda were to surprise the Uesugi army. When his bold plan apparently failed, Kansuke took his spear and plunged into the midst of the enemy army, committing suicide to make amends for his error. The tragedy of his death was that his conclusion about the destruction of the Takeda proved incorrect. Reinforcements arrived, the army rallied, and a defeat was turned into victory. Yet an experienced general had been lost, and he would have served Shingen better by staying alive.

Committing suicide was not always a voluntary activity. It could be allowed as an honourable alternative to execution for a condemned criminal of the samurai class. Sasa Narimasa was 'invited' to commit suicide by Hideyoshi following his disastrous handling of the territory Hideyoshi had given him. Hagakure adds a rather extreme example:

At the fall of the castle of Arima, on the twenty-eighth day in the vicinity of the inmost citadel, Mitsue Genbei sat down on a levee between the fields. When Nakano Shigetoshi passed by and asked the reason for this, Mitsuse replied, ‘I have abdominal pains and can’t go a step further. I have sent the members of my group ahead, so please take command. The situation was reported by the overseer, pronounced to be a case of cowardice, and Mitsuse was ordered to commit seppuku.

My justification for using Mitford as a source

My feelings on the accuracy of Mitford are solid. Although there are minor errors in "Tales of Old Japan" http://www.blackmask.com/thatway/books162c/taja.htm

I feel that this work remains one of the most important and indispensable on early relations of westerners into Japan. Mitford relied on some plays for the background on the story of the 47 Ronin and this lead to some minor factual errors as these plays contained embellishments. However, he was also an eyewitness to many of the things he wrote about, as an ambassador to Japan. He lived next to Sengaku-ji and toured the temple some 165 years after the famous Ako vendetta. He personally found the folded, yellow, fragile last letters of the men and translated them. There are no other books that I know of in English which contain these.

Overall, the book is accurate and contains only small unintentional errors. I encourage all people interested in Japanese history to read it.

Interesting description of an execution.

http://www.blackmask.com/thatway/books162c/skja.htm#1_0_7

This man was a fair specimen of the lonin type, and was a most determined ruffian, whose whole life had been a career of crime.

When exposed in the streets of Yokohama the day preceding his execution, he conducted himself with great bravado, remarking on the improvements in the town since he last visited it, and expressing his regret that he had not killed a consul.

At the place of execution he made an impassioned speech, in which he declared that he was a gentleman by birth, and had studied the arts and sciences, and never believed the government would sacrifice a Japanese for the death of a foreigner. He said that the days would come when they would repent the encouragement they were now giving to strangers; and ended by complimenting the executioner on his well-known skill.

from the book:

Sketches of Japanese Manners and Customs J. M. W. Silver

1. CHAPTER I. FESTIVALS AND HOLIDAYS.
2. CHAPTER II. FIRES AND FIRE-BRIGADES
3. CHAPTER III. DOMESTIC LIFE.
4. CHAPTER IV. THE TYCOON, DAIMIOS, AND ARISTOCRACY.
5. CHAPTER V. THE COURT OF THE MIKADO.
6. CHAPTER VI. The 'HARA KIRU.'
7. CHAPTER VII. NATIONAL GAMES AND AMUSEMENTS.
8. CHAPTER VIII. CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS.
9. CHAPTER IX. SUPERSTITIONS AND RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCES.
10. CHAPTER X. ON THE TOKAIDO AND IN THE TEA-HOUSES.
11. CHAPTER XI. THE SPY SYSTEM—THE BATH-HOUSE.
12. CHAPTER XII. LOVE OF FLOWERS.

SKETCHES OF JAPANESE MANNERS AND CUSTOMS

by

J. M. W. SILVER Lieutenant Royal Marines, Light Infantry (Late of the Royal Marine Battalion for Service in Japan)

Illustrated by Native Drawings, Reproduced in Fac-Simile by Means of Chromo-Lithography.

LONDON

1867

[Illustration: Sketches of Japanese Manners and Customs]

TO

COLONEL SIR EDMUND SAUNDERSON PRIDEAUX, BART.

DEAR SIR EDMUND,

These few 'Sketches of Japanese Manners and Customs' were collected during the years 1864-5, at which time I was attached to the Battalion of Royal Marines for service in Japan, and it is now very pleasing to have the privilege of dedicating them to one who was the friend and companion-in-arms of my late Father.

In memory of this bond of friendship, and in grateful acknowledgment of the many kindnesses you have shown me, this Dedication of my humble efforts to assist in the elucidation of the social condition of a distant and comparatively unknown race, affords me deep gratification.

 With much respect and esteem, I am,
   Dear Sir Edmund,
     Very faithfully yours,
       J. M. W. SILVER.

Royal Marine Barracks, Forton, January 29th, 1867.

Final Statement of Oishi Chikara, age 16:

Oishi Chikara was the son of Oishi Kuranosuke, chief retainer of the Asano Clan and a member of the 47 ronin. His father gave him the difficult choice of being sent away with his mother to help take care of his brothers and sisters or joining in the attack on Kira. He instead chose to follow his father, telling him that he had been raised as a warrior his entire life and that to run away wasn't the path of a warrior. He told his father that he had waited his entire life for this moment and that his life "weighed lightly against duty."

After court martial, the men were separated into groups of six or seven at the residence of various Daimyo. Oishi Chikara ended up at the manor of Lord Matsudaira. After several appeals by the sympathetic Matsudaira Daimyo were denied, it became clear that the order to commit seppuku would be enforced. Lord Matsudaira reluctantly carried out the sentence of death-- and with his men, wept in admiration of the 16 year old's bravery. Oishii Chikara had only done what they would have done in similar circumstances. He had lived up to the warrior ideal of loyalty to one's Lord.

“I humbly thank your lordship for what you have been pleased to say. My father warned me from the first that our crime was so great that, even were we to be pardoned by a gracious judgment upon one count, I must not forget that there would be a hundred million counts against us for which we must commit suicide: and that if I disregarded his words his hatred would pursue me after death. My father impressed this upon me at the temple called Sengakuji, and again when I was separated from him to be taken to the palace of Prince Sengoku. Now my father and myself have been condemned to perform hara-kiri, according to the wish of our hearts. Still I cannot forget to think of my mother. When we parted at Kiyoto, she told me that our separation would be for long, and she bade me not to play the coward when I thought of her. As I took a long leave of her then, I have no message to send to her now.”

-Oishi Chikara's final statement before committing seppuku at the residence of Matsudaira Oki no Kami. Lord Matsudaira had offered to deliver a message to Chikara's mother, but he politely declined. It is said that that Lord Matsudaira and his men wept after hearing his final words. Oishi Chikara was 16 years old.

8 year old boy commits seppuku

From Nitobe's "BUSHIDO--The Soul of Japan":

I might multiply any number of descriptions of seppuku from literature or from the relation of eye-witnesses; but one more instance will suffice.

Two brothers, Sakon and Naiki, respectively twenty-four and seventeen years of age, made an effort to kill Iyéyasu in order to avenge their father's wrongs; but before they could enter the camp they were made prisoners. The old general admired the pluck of the youths who dared an attempt on his life and ordered that they should be allowed to die an honorable death. Their little brother Hachimaro, a mere infant of eight summers, was condemned to a similar fate, as the sentence was pronounced on all the male members of the family, and the three were taken to a monastery where it was to be executed. A physician who was present on the occasion has left us a diary from which the following scene is translated. “When they were all seated in a row for final despatch, Sakon turned to the youngest and said—'Go thou first, for I wish to be sure that thou doest it aright.' Upon the little one's replying that, as he had never seen seppuku performed, he would like to see his brothers do it and then he could follow them, the older brothers smiled between their tears:—'Well said, little fellow! So canst thou well boast of being our father's child.' When they had placed him between them, Sakon thrust the dagger into the left side of his own abdomen and asked—'Look, brother! Dost understand now? Only, don't push the dagger too far, lest thou fall back. Lean forward, rather, and keep thy knees well composed.' Naiki did likewise and said to the boy—'Keep thy eyes open or else thou mayst look like a dying woman. If thy dagger feels anything within and thy strength fails, take courage and double thy effort to cut across.' The child looked from one to the other, and when both had expired, he calmly half denuded himself and followed the example set him on either hand.”

Tsuifuku or JUNSHI is performed *immediately* after the Daimyo's death

If one hesitates, or kills the Lord's enemy and is ordered to kill themselves as the 47 ronin, it is called "seppuku". There is a BIG difference between immediately and waiting for nearly two years. The description of 47 ronin as tsuifuku is wrong.

Copyvio?

A large portion of the "Overview" section of the article appears to be a copyvio from http://www.ospreysamurai.com/samurai_death02.htm -- does wikipedia have permission to use this text? --Chiacomo 05:05, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Redirect Daki-kubi

The following text is now a redirect here; any use for the article? " Daki-kubi is when the second of a person who committed seppuku gave the order and the second takes out his sword and behaeads the man." --Wetman 19:55, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Seppuku in Modern Japan: An Anecdote

User:Nax included this information in the article: "Several years ago, around 2002, I had a foreign exchange student from Japan. She was a seriously troubled young woman, and to my shame I mistook her problems for cultural differences. One day, she was caught shoplifting. During the resulting meeting with the exchange program coordinator, when told she would have to return to Japan within 24 hours, she suddenly said "I have shamed my family", grabbed a kitchen knife, and began stabbing herself in the abdomen. I jumped on her and my wife wrestled the knife away. The injuries were minor. She wrote to us a few weeks later from Japan." Fg2 11:59, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Requested move: Seppuku → Hara-kiri

Seppuku → Hara-kiri The article even says, "Seppuku is better known in English as hara-kiri", and this is English Wikipedia!!! I believe you are supposed to refer to what it is most commonly known by. --Hottentot [30 July 2005]

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• I oppose this move. Even though a quick Google test shows that hara-kiri (plus harakiri) is more common than seppuku, as the article says, hara-kiri is considered "a colloquial and somewhat vulgar term". Thus seppuku is certainly the more appropriate title for an encyclopedia article. BlankVerse ∅ 11:40, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. As long as "hara-kiri" is a redirect, there is no need for a move. Having more Google hits doesn't make a good argument on it's own. I agree with BlankVerse's reasoning. JeroenHoek 15:53, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

• Support. Gene Nygaard 23:01, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose: Google test is a notoriously unreliable way of choosing a article title. The question we must be asking is what term respected scholars use. And, Seppuku seems to be the case not Harakiri. -- Taku 23:07, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. I get the impression that seppuku is the more appropriate and accurate term, and in any case, since the terms are more or less interchangeable in English, I see no need to move it. Kind of like, oh, I don't know, 'water fountain' for example. We could argue to move it to 'drinking fountain', but why bother? I think both terms are just as well known, and just as interchangeable. If we do end up moving it, I'd vote for 'harakiri' over 'hara-kiri' as there is no hyphen in the official romanization standards. LordAmeth 23:12, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm partial to Bubbler myself! Fg2 01:08, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. Exploding Boy 23:48, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. Seppuku is the correct term, and there is already a redirect from Hara-kiri Claus Aranha 23:43, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

• Opposed - Yeah, and maybe we should move "African-American" over to "nigger". No more than three lines down does it say, "However, in Japanese hara-kiri is considered a colloquial and somewhat vulgar term." Which, if I'm not mistaken, is how the word "nigger" is regarded. Have some respect. --69.137.163.84 21:42, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose: to me, seppuku clearly seems to be the modern term to use, and it seems to me that the popularity of hara-kiri does nothing but decrease in recent times. --Homer Jay 00:24, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

First, deleting others' comments is considered rude. I'm putting them back in below. Second, while I agree with you that the term is vulgar, it is more in the sense of "not educated" than in the sense of "offensive" (like calling the ocean "the big water") Claus Aranha 01:08, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

My sincerest apologies, Clause and Taku (by the way -- Clause -- what a sweet-ass name). I'm new to Wiki-markup (as you should have been able to tell). I realized my mistake as soon as I saved the page, and was not able to fix it, but I assumed it would be restored...which it was. It was deleted because I thought it would clutter the page with a duplicate response. My heart was in the right place, but my head was up my ass, for which I aplogize. I'll be more conscious of it in the future. Hopefully this post won't incur the wrath of the Moderators, as my previous one did.

Hey hey, no sweat about it, everyone makes mistakes. I reckon my reply to your comment was way harsher than needed. I'm pretty new to wikipedia too (and not a moderator), and have made some pretty stupid mistakes myself, if you check my contributions page :-). Claus Aranha 23:46, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose Anything we can do to make people stop saying "harry-carry" is worthwhile. Fg2 01:08, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

I want to comment on the "vulgarity" issue. If you look up the word "vulgar" in a dictionary, you'll find several meanings. I looked it up in Merriam-Webster Online (to give a specific example) and found five senses of the word. Many people understand the word to mean M-W's meaning 5: "a : offensive in language : EARTHY b : lewdly or profanely indecent" but my sense is that the word hara-kiri is not vulgar in that sense. Rather, sense 3 a "of or relating to the common people : PLEBEIAN." probably best describes the word. It's the kun-yomi version, and kun-yomi was the language of the common people. Samurai were more likely than commoners to use on-yomi such as seppuku. Since samurai were the ones who actually carried out the act, it seems sensible to use their word for it. So my objection to the move has nothing to do with the word being offensive, earthy, lewdly or profanely indecent; I don't believe the word has those attributes. Fg2 07:17, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

- i've read that the word "seppuku" actually comes from the chinese term for the act. i believe Harakiri, literally meaning "to slice the abdomen" (hara literally means abdomen, and kiri slice), should be used as the title for this article. but, since this post is 6 months old, i doubt it matters that i'm writing this. --Roobydo 00:39, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. TheMadBaron 20:06, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose: in Japanese, "hara-kiri" is a casual and bordeline rude way to say "seppuku", and I suppose that an encyclopedia has to maintain a certain standing. Also the argument "harakiri is better known" is meaningless: if one does not wish to learn things, reading an encyclopedia is not the way to go. It is like with Bastille Day, it is not because most people don't know something that it ceases to be true. Rama 15:40, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

The consensus is clear; I am removing the request for move. -- Taku 23:49, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

And I have reinstated it. The least harm is to let it stay for the guide line time on the WP:RM page "Requested moves may be implemented if there is a rough consensus (60% or more) supporting the moving of an article after five (5) days under discussion on the talk page of the article to be moved, or earlier at the discretion of an administrator. The time for discussion may be extended if a consensus has not emerged.". If it does not say up for five days there is nothing to stop someone else immediately posting it again to WP:RM arguing that there was not enough time given to reach a decision. If it has been up for five days on WP:RM that usually puts the move to bed for at least 6 months. Philip Baird Shearer 10:15, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

What's the point of keeping the request that is overwhelmingly unsupported? But if that's the procedure and if you want to follow it, I don't stop you no matter how much nonsense it is. -- Taku 23:51, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

After 10 days of the request for move being put up, we have a 10x2 consensus on not moving. Also, the discussion seems to have died out. I'm removing the request. Now, I'm new to this, should we note the attempetd move somewhere, or just archive this discussion? Claus Aranha 01:29, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Obligatory Multicultural Nonsense

While I do appreciate the need to correct the human tendency to over-generalize, Yukio Mishima does not make a good game of "Japanese/not-Japanese". Gore Vidal, in his posthumous article on Mishima's fiction, notes that he writes a lot like Anatole France, whom Mishima much admired. Vidal quotes a Japanese on Mishima who notes that his seppuku was botched, public and rushed, saying, "Of course, Mishima was almost entirely Westernized." I have replaced the "Mishima test" with a pointer to a new stub page, dutiful suicide, which does not need to be ritualistic nor traditional nor, may I add, Japanese. Please check it out and tell me what you think.

I think it is nice. The frisbee sepukku indeed had to go :-). I added King Saul's suicide to the "dutiful suicide" page. If you think it does not belong there, maybe it should be mentioned here again along with non-japanese suicides. Claus Aranha 15:30, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Reminds me of Roman suicide

Remember from Latin class how those daft (at least that's the impression it made on me) Romans always seemed to throw themselves into their swords, sometimes to have the final blow administered by a friend? Shinobu 15:32, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

There can only be one last

From the article:

The last person known to have performed this ritual historically is General Maresuke Nogi in 1912, or it is Admiral Takijiro Onishi in 1945.

They couldn't both be last. Shinobu 23:57, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Spin

The same anonymous obsessive fanboy who has spun the main article page out of control has also seen it fit to delete my following comments from this Talk page:

• your inaccurate statements remain in their original place (look closer), but they have been thoroughly refuted.

This article puts a slightly too positive/unreal spin on seppuku (I blame James Clavell).

First, cases of truly voluntary seppuku are very rare, usually it was just a de facto death sentence decided by others. Cases of people having to be tied up, physically dragged to the place of execution and forced to kneel in order to have their head cut off far outnumber people composing cherry blossom-laded death poems in a tranquil grove before disemboweling themselves with nary a grunt. Nearly all Western eyewitness accounts fall in the first category.

• Junshi had to be banned by the shogunate because the number of people who started killing themselves had become so great.

• Second, it's only an "honorable" death sentence in the same way as a guillotine is preferable to hanging -- it's still considered a terrible disgrace. Any lord sentenced to seppuku would see his estate confiscated, samurai turned into ronin and family reduced to penury. Jpatokal 08:12, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Mitford states that the men were allowed to keep their estates and the men did not automatically become ronin. The japanese considered it an honor to commit seppuku.

I think this continues to apply to the article, only instead of "slightly" it's now "entirely" too positive/unreal. As a refer, see Encyclopedia Britannica:

Obligatory seppuku refers to the method of capital punishment for samurai to spare them the disgrace of being beheaded by a common executioner. This practice was prevalent from the 15th century until 1873, when it was abolished.

I rest my case and will now proceed to make a first stab at fixing the article. Jpatokal 08:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

You have a source, go ahead. And please cite it. Shinobu 23:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately other encyclopedias aren't really a good source. Tales of Japan has some bits that agree with this (see quotes above), but alas, I'm not obsessed enough to have any other seppuku literature on hand... Jpatokal 06:09, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

• The encyclopedia article is not accurate because a samurai considered it an honor to be allowed to commit seppuku if he had a choice between seppuku and beheading, which was reserved for common criminals. Seppuku allowed the warrior to die honorably, retain his samurai status, restore or add to his reputation and keep his estate or pass it on to his family.
• If a criminal act was committed, the samurai had to have permission to commit seppuku and he would consider that a privilage and would gladly choose it. After the battle of Sekigahara, Ishida mistunari was executed and died a dog's death. Konishi Yukinaga was offered a chance to die honorably by seppuku, but stated that his religion forbade it. He was later beheaded.

In Tales of old Japan, the Chief retainer's son Oishi Chikara states that it is "according to the wish of their hearts" that they are allowed to commit seppuku. Chikara was 16 years old and declined an offer to send a final letter to his mother.

Less painful way?

I remember reading somewhere that the ritual evolved to a point where the knife was substituted for a fan, and the act of seppuku "merely" consisted of touching the fan, which was signal for the second to strike. I believe it was also used for people regarded as espcially dangerous people (giving them a weapon = not good). Unfortunately I cannot remember where I read this, has anybody else heard this as well? Hellfire83 17:57, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

• There were several guards around to ensure that the person killing themselves did not try to escape or attack anyone. Depending on the situation, however, most people would not want to harm their reputation after the fact by acting scared or cowardly. I think it is Mitford that mentions the use of a fan as a signal.

Found a refence to just touching the blade:

"Not all samurai were capable of such self-control and strength involved in this kind of Seppuku, and variations evolved. Women could stab themselves in the neck, severing veins and arteries and dying quickly, like samurai who were clad in armor. Women, children and even male samurai could just touch the blade and they could have their heads cut off, if they felt they couldn't do the actual belly cut. Later, the inauspicious blade on the dais was often totally replaced by a fan or a sakaki branch."

website address: http://www.aikidofaq.com/essays/seppuku.html Hellfire83 15:15, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

i've read that a good friend or family member (also a samurai) would often be present during seppuku, and would strike as soon as the condemned samurai made the first cut, to spare them the pain.

Direction?

Was the direction of the daishakunin's slash important? As in, did it come from behind or one or other side? I ask because I am most curious about this matter - I've watched MANY jidaigeki involving the ritual but this part is seldom directly shown - and if it matter I feel this article should mention it. If not, it should specify that. elvenscout742 22:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Pop culture

This is getting huge, with specific details of individual instances. Should this be re-written as an overview, with fewer minute details, or spun off into a child article? KillerChihuahua^?!? 21:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that these "Pop culture" sections are generally useless. Except in rare instances they don't belong in articles. It's usually a case of fanboys wanting to spout off about their medium of interest. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:06, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that these sections are useless. That's why I've added a tag to a daughter article. Skinnyweed 19:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

There must be a place for all that cruft. I've started a page Seppuku in popular culture. --Svartalf 09:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

origin of seppuku

Whats is origin of seppuku? This site claims http://www.emishi-ezo.net/Emishi_identity.html : There is a dark side to this as well. Controversially, after their conquest, as the armies of fushu under the Abe and Kiyowara fought over the scraps of the formerly independent areas of the Emishi realm in the Former Nine Year�s War and the Latter Three Year�s War allied to the Minamoto forces of Yoshiie in the eleventh century, they commonly practiced torture against enemy combatants that eventually later lead to the practice of honorable suicide, seppuku, among the Japanese warriors who also either took on this practice themselves or had originated it themselves. Whether or not the torture started with the fushu or with the Minamoto forces is unclear, but that it was practiced by them seems clear in the dismembered remains of skeletons found in archeological digs recently unearthed from Aomori prefecture thought to be from the tenth century in areas that were still thought to have been independent of Japanese control. This find in Aomoriindicates that still independent Emishi fought fiercely against each other for control over the remaining lands.�

Hagakure

Should the Hagakure quote be really kept as factual. The book is at best a romanticized account, at worst the work of a grumpy old bureaucrat who got off on the thought of being a warrior. Snapdragonfly 11:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

sui-chan

something worth checking out and adding to the article maybe?

http://www.suichancountdown.com/

edit: she claims she will be committing seppuku live

--anon