Talk:Raymond Franz

NPOV

I've tried to neutralize some of the POV of the article, but it still seems to be a bit slanted. I don't know anything about the subject to delve further. Al 17:04, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

The problem is, neither does anyone else! We're left to assume that Franz's perspectives are the final word on events as they really happened (see below, re: his interpretation of passages in WT material). Keep in mind that we're only getting his side of the story. So this article reads more like a synopsis of his book/s rather than a fair and unbiased representation of the facts. --bUcKaRoO 13:42, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

"We're left to assume that Franz's perspectives are the final word on events as they really happened (see below, re: his interpretation of passages in WT material)?" Then please, do tell how you verified the precise article spoken of, and how you came to a different conclusion despite having "to assume that Franz's perspectives are the final word." The fact is, any account you read, whether the author be Raymond Franz, the Watch Tower Society, a Bible writer, or me, involves stuff that you just weren't there for (unless you actually were). At least Franz names names, provides exact citations, provides photocopies of letters, etc. If you want to get into well-known liars and wildly-out-of-context quoters, however, we can discuss Watch Tower Society publications. In any case, the fact that Raymond Franz wrote his book 22 years ago and has not received a single lawsuit from the lawsuit-happy Watch Tower Society is basically their endorsement as to the veracity of his story.Tommstein 09:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

JW categories

He belongs to neither of these categories. He rather belongs to a kind of religous criticism category.Summer Song 08:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

He's not some kind of generic religious critic, his importance is directly and 100% tied to Jehovah's Witnesses and Jehovah's Witnesses only.Tommstein 09:14, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Tom, the user Summer Song is JW and a well known vandal, and has the habit of also deleting whole pages of text, and disappearing for a while, and then re-appearing from the shadows to trash more pages with little or no explanations, and never any discussion. I have come to the conclusion he thinks no one will actually notice, and that is why his vandalism is never discussed beforehand. Central 21:10, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Good to know, if does actually start doing some of that stuff.Tommstein 01:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

So I am to be called a "vandal who appears from the shadows" when I am explained why i did what I did? And the user Central seems like he just want to thow some judging words at me? If I did mot ecplain well enough: The category JW people is about people who currrently ARE witnesses, not people who have been witnesses before. So Raymond Franz do not belong to that page.Summer Song 14:18, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Summer Song, are you actually serious? You said: "The category JW people is about people who currently ARE witnesses, not people who have been witnesses before", Ummm. . . so I see the resurrection must have already occurred, can you tell us what country and congregations Frederick William Franz, Milton George Henschel, or Joseph Franklin Rutherford are currently in? Maybe we could give them an interview and ask them about what it's like to be resurrected. Raymond Franz played a very significant position within the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses, and you are very well aware of that. The only reason you want to keep vandalising pages is you clearly don't want people to stumble on any information about him. You would prefer to keep the false rumours alive rather than have the truth out there for people to make up their own minds.

As for you being a vandal, you cleary are, and here are some edits out of many you have trashed. You have also been told multiple times to discuss any objections before any edits are made, but you chose to ignore this and vandalise pages whenever it pleases you, and always chose to cover up embarrassing facts about the Watch Tower Society. Here are some of your vandalism attempts (besides the ones on this page):

• Example 1
• Example 2
• Example 3
• Example 4
• Example 5
• Example 6
• Example 7
• Example 8
• Example 9
• Example 10 . . .and on and on goes your vandalism. You are not interested in improving Wikipedia, because all you do is destroy perfectly valid texts, and you refuse to make any case for your point, you just vandalise and disappear, then come back as you have here and do it again! You are a perfect example of what fundamentalism does to people's sense of reality or reasonableness. Please desist from your petty acts of vandalism. You have failed to make a case for any of your edits, and you refuse to have any dialog, as many others have repeatedly pointed out to you before on multiple occations. Central 18:15, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, an interview with Rutherford. That could be interesting. I wonder if he'd be sober for it. Ooh, or we could ask Franz why he lied about the Rhodes Scholarship, and just how precisely he was the main translator of a Bible translation when he didn't know a lick of Hebrew, and pretty much no Greek either. But Summer Song, some of those examples that Central posted definitely look like vandalism to me; I clicked on a random one, number 5, and it definitely was.Tommstein 22:00, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Naos vs. Hieron

Biblesupporter, I think you brought up the wrong verses. To quote what Raymond Franz wrote in Crisis of Conscience, in the footnote on page 355:

"The article, in the August 15, 1980, issue of the Watchtower, endeavored to show that the Greek term naos (temple or sanctuary), used in Revelation 7:15 with regard to the "great crowd," could apply to the temple courtyards. In doing so it said that Jesus chased the moneychangers out of the naos. (See page 15, box at the bottom of the page.) Since the Bible account itself, at John 2:14-16, clearly uses another term (hieron), the claim was obviously false, as one elder expressed it, "either an example of intellectual dishonesty or intellectual ignorance."

If you look at the PDF you linked to, it does in fact use hieros (presumably a form of hieron) at the verses in question. So it would seem that no one has a quarrel with the verses you mentioned, but a legitimate one with the verses that are really in question. What say you?Tommstein 15:58, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Aug 15th Watchtower

I have never read Franz's book, however I do have the Aug 15th 1980 Watchtower in question. That article never cites John 2:14 & 15, but it does cite John 2: 19-21 where 'Naos' is used! All the scriptures cited in that article use the term 'Naos'. Therefore, Franz's argument is artifactual.

Well, I don't have the article handy at the moment, so I guess I'll have to take your word for it for now. Undoubtedly someone with a working Watchtower CD will verify just what exactly the article says.Tommstein 06:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Certainly. It does not say, as Franz asserts, that Jesus chased the moneychangers out of the naos. That is a misleading presentation of the article. It mentions the account in John 2 but clearly quotes Jesus' subsequent interchange with the Jews, at vs. 19-21, where both parties use 'naos', commonly rendered 'temple'. --bUcKaRoO 17:07, 3 November 2005 (UTC)