User talk:Good Olfactory

Macron usage

Should macrons be used in the English language spellings of Maori words on English pages or only on truely Maori language pages?

• The Maori Language Commission is rather vague on this issue.

Which is preferred usage?

1. Māori or
2. Maori.

Your thoughts are invited. -- kiwiinapanic 12:51 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

thanks for the invitation, but I don't feel qualified in this area to make a judgement -- Tarquin 14:23 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

In my opinion, macrons should always be used correctly when writing Maori language, or writing about Maori language. There are many words where the length of the vowels makes a difference.

However, where the words are Maori words that have been imported into English, I don't think macrons are always necessary. For example, kowhai should be kōwhai, but when writing about the tree in English, the former is unambiguous. A note on correct Maori spelling and pronunciation on the relevant page would be good in any case. -- carey

I'd like to use them but aren't sure how to type them in. How do you manage to get them to show up on this page for example? Lisiate 00:36 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)

For: Ā ā Ē ē Ī ī Ō ō Ū ū
Type: Ā ā Ē ē Ī ī Ō ō Ū ū
--Brion

Cheers for that Lisiate 20:37 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)

• Microsoft have produced a simple fix (using the " ` " symbol - below the tilde) available on moderately advanced Windows systems; see [spamlisted link removed] - it needs one of these:
  • Windows 2000 Professional or Server with a Pentium 133 MHz or higher processor and 128 MB of RAM
  • Windows XP Home Edition or Professional with a Pentium 233 MHz or higher processor and 128MB of RAM

Robin Patterson 05:40, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

• Windows XP/2000 users can also download Māori keyboard definitions from http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~timw/maorikb/
  • These keyboard definitions use the AltGr (Right Alt) key instead of using the "`" key. TimW 10:30 Nov 11 2004 (UTC)

The other possibility is to double the vowel, so Maori(macron on the a) becomes Maaori. This is often used and is felt by some to be preferable, it may be a matter of regional variation, among the different iwi. Ping

I think maybe it's more a variation between different academic institutions. BP

• There's also the problem that it fails to distinguish juxtapositions in compound words. Robin Patterson 05:40, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

The Reed Dictionary of Māori place names says this in the intro: "The student of Māori, [...] is still left with the problem of correct vowel length. For example, mata may be pronounced as maataa, mataa or mata, depending upon the intended meaning. Double vowels have been used in the past (in Te Kooti, for example), but the placement of a macron is now generally recognised as the best way to indicate a lengthened vowel sound." I would say to use them, as they change pronunciation — and thus, the meaning. We include the accents in French words and such as well. porge 04:32, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC) See also New Zealand Government Web Guidelines porge 23:52, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

• It is usual to use double vowels in compound words, such as Mataatua and Tokaanu, and in words derived from English such as Te Kooti and Waaka. Reed was a dedicated amateur, but not an expert (his derivation of placenames was often fanciful or sheer guesswork). --Hugh7 09:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the variant without a macron, Maori, should be mentioned at the beginning, since it is still widely used. -- Hugh7 04:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that the macrons should be used in this article as it is a text on the language, and beginners need to know vowel length etc. Tīmoti Kāretu says in the preface to K.T. Harawira's work Teach yourself Māori that it is “…irresponsible of any text not to indicate vowel length…” This article is essentially a text, so I say yes…include the macrons. BKalesti 17:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

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Ng sound

I heard a Kiwi historian a few days ago, but for some reason, I couldn't catch how she pronounced initial ng, as in Ngai, in Anglicized pronunciation of Maori (even though she said it a dozen times). Because ng, as an initial one, is not part of Canadian English and needs to have an additional vowel attached to it, schwa or /i/, I believe. So it became [@N]. Is that how it's done in New Zealand English too? The rendering of --Menchi 09:32 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The Ng sound does have an English equivalent: like ng in the word "bang", but obviously dropping the first two letters. The ng sound is just the same as in 'singing', the only difference is that it occurs word-initially. To do that, say "song", then "song-ong-ong-ong..." then re-think that as "-ngo-ngo-ngo-ngo-...", then slow it down till you're saying "Ngo. Ngo...." Likewise "singing" for "ngi". Unfortunately there aren't any English words for the long a sound, but now you've got the idea, it should come easily. -- Hugh7 22:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hugh is right, but if you come from Northern England it is important to note that the 'ng' sound that he referred to here has no hard 'g' as in the dialects of North England. To answer user Menchi's question, many New Zealand English speakers pronounce 'ng' at the beginning of words as if it were 'n'. Kahuroa 08:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

There's a problem with such people as Cockneys (Londoners) too. Typically they don't aspirate the 'ng' in words such as 'sing' at all. It seems to me that it is all in how one holds one's tongue in the roof of the mouth. The correct sound is made with about half of the tongue (from the tip back) lightly pressing the roof of the mouth. The incorrect 'n' sound that Kahuroa describes above is done by just pressing the tip to the roof of the forward (or hard) palate. Lin

Other letters

Similarly, the other strange letter is written as Wh and pronounced as a slightly aspirated FFFF; very similar to the wh sound as used in Aberdeen and other areas of Scotland where "what's that" is pronounced s "fit's thaat" Until about 20 years ago the maori Wh was usually pronounced by the media as a WWW but in recent years there has been a strong effort to revert to the correct pronounciation.

The other slight variation is the letter RRR. The letter DDD could have been chosen with almost equal accuracy. Often in early writing from New Zealand Keri Keri was written as Kedi Kedi. As with the Ng sound it is an RR sound emerging from the roof of the mouth and the middle of the tongue rather than the tip of the tongue against the front of the hard palate.

One qualification to all this, my experience is limited to Ngapuhi Maori, the dialect spoken by the most populous tribe in the far North of New Zealand. There are some regional variations across the different iwi or tribes.

Hope this helps you,

Ping 10:20 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It's interesting to read about the details unmentioned in the article. Do most White Kiwis pronounce them the traditional Maori way (at least according to the local or most common Maori dialect, like you described)? If not, how do White Kiwis pronounce ng and wh (as initial sounds of a word) usually? --Menchi 10:24 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The article says that "ng" is pronounced as in the English word "singer". That sounds perfectly straightforward to me. Or am I missing something? Are you saying that it's actually not quite the same as the sound in "singer"? -- Oliver P. 10:27 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

To Oliver P, yes, that is what I am saying, it is a single sound, try running the ng of singer together. its, close. Ping 10:44 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I realize I'm coming to this discussion quite "late in the day", as it were...but if anyone is still paying attention, the problem here is one of dialect and idiolect differences within English prounciation. In pronunciation of most native-speakers of English, Maori "ng" is pronounced exactly like the "ng" in "singer". There are, however, significant groups who pronounce "singer" to rhyme with "finger", i.e., as though it were written *"singger". I recommend that, if anyone ever puts a phonology section back into this article, that they us the IPA symbol ŋ however, instead of trying to come up with a "universally agreed-upon English phoneme equivalent". Tomer ^TALK 20:25, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea; we need someone familiar with the system. ping 08:29, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Type it up and let me know when it's ready on my User_talk page. I'll help in any way I can. You appear to be in a much better position to know what you're talking about wrt exactly to Re'o Maori than I am. I'm more than happy to help out with the IPA templating when a suitable phonology section is created. Tomer ^TALK 08:55, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

To Menchi, Most Pakeha(non Maori) new Zealanders pronounce maori words exactly the same as if they were speaking English, thus Whanganui comes across as WONGA-NUI although Ngawha is usually rendered as NARFA Ping 10:49 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There are often three pronunciations (here illustrated with Whangarei):
1. Traditional Pakeha - Wonga-rei.
2. Pakeha attempt (failed) at political correctness - Fonga-rei.
3. Maori (where the initial consonant varies from region to region) - Fa-ngaa-rei or Ha-ngaa-rei or Wa-ngaa-rei.

The 2nd really grates on me. I'd rather people stuck to 1 if they can't manage 3. -BP 30 Oct 2003

Let me get a bit technical here and add to BP's list by suggesting a 4th sound here: not an 'f' which is a labiodental fricative made with lower lip touching upper teeth as in English, but a bilabial fricative made using both lips rather than lips and teeth. This sound is made with the lips parted a little more than for 'p', but otherwise in a similar position as for 'p'. To English ears this will sound like an f; if the lips are slightly rounded it may sound like a voiceless w - the wh in 'what' as pronounced by older speakers. It is likely that this bilabial fricative was the original pronunciation for many dialects, and that it was influenced by the English f which sounds pretty similar anyway, and is the origin of the present variation/confusion between f, wh, and w. Kahuroa 10:38, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Back in the 70's listening to the old people speak, the sound that Kahuroa describes is the sound I remember hearing, and that I modelled my own pronounciation on. I have always, since then though that the 'f' sound was a lazy way of pronouncing it. These were speakders from the mid-north island. dont know what otehr dialects may do withthe sound, and remembering that the western north island dialects have a 'w' with a glottal stop, which is how Whanganui ended up being called Wanganui (W'anganui)Tashkop 03:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

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Alot of the 'correct' Maori pronounciations that've been come up with are a bit of a red herring. Maori was historically a language like German in that it was very fractured by different dialects with different pronouncations. This notion of there being a single correct way of saying each vowel & word is a product of nationalism, accidemia, and the very small number of remaining speakers of many dialects. Crusadeonilliteracy

Yes and no, you are partly correct but there are certain bondaries in the range of pronounciations. That is why spoken Maori would never sound like German; thus Cook Island Maori still sounds like Maori. My impression is that within New Zealand at least the range of spoken Maori is far narrower than, say, the range of spoken English in England. And yet people still talk about "correct English" ping 06:08, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)~

Article needs attention

Several paragraphs are obviously (when one reads them) just the standard Wikipedia "X language" paragraphs telling contributors what sort of material the finished para should contain - see "Examples", for example.
Let's dig out some relevant material to fix it. :Robin Patterson 22:22, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Copyright paragraphs

• Maori language contains some text copy & pasted from [1] ᚣᚷᚷᛞᚱᚫᛋᛁᛚ 01:02, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
  • If it's not the whole article, just remove the part you think is a copyright violation. Angela. 11:19, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
    • The "complaint" is correct. The material has been there for 6 weeks, now spread over several paragraphs. It arrived in this revision on 13 April, with the somewhat cryptic comment "Conformation to template". Without realising its origin, I thanked the 14-year-old Arizonan Wikipediholic then rephrased and enlarged parts of it a day or two later. I or one of my fellow-Kiwis could probably do more paraphrasing and other editing so that it owed next-to-nothing to that site. Or maybe one of that site's guardians would like to do that for us... Robin Patterson 07:54, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Writing system

As it currently stands, the article claims that "Maori once had a script similar to the Rongorongo script of Easter Island". I have never heard of such a script being used by Maori - could someone please point me towards the source of this claim? (I'm not saying it's wrong, but since it conflicts with what I thought I knew, I'd quite like some confirmation of it). Thanks. -- Vardion 11:41, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sounds/grammar/vocabulary, generally

Here (slightly edited for heading level) is what I have just concealed inside comment code in the article. Now that it's safely here, I suggest that it be deleted from the article next time someone's editing that. Robin Patterson 01:02, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sounds

Description of the sound set of the language. Can include phoneme charts and example words for each phoneme like in French language. If there is significant discussion here, it is probably best to divide the section into vowels and consonants subsections.

Vowels

Vowel chart and discussion of vowels.

Consonants

Consonant chart and discussion of consonants (including the "wh" and "ng").

Phonology

Discussion of some major phonological processes, such as important allophones or assimilation rules.

Historical sound changes

Description of important sound changes in the history of the language. (Maybe this should go under history?)

Grammar

Description of the grammar of the language.

Vocabulary

This section should contain a discussion of any special features of the vocabulary (or lexicon) of the language, like if it contains a large number of borrowed words (large number of words are borrowed from English, as with all Polynesian languages) or different sets of words for different politeness levels, taboo groups, etc.

---

The vocab added is somewhat scrappy. I suggest it be alphabetised and divided into sections such as Greetings and other common expressions, Maori words generally understood by non-Maori New Zealanders eg taihoa, pakaru, tikanga, marae, haka ... Maori words commonly featuring in placenames eg roto, wai, motu, maunga, moana, manga, ... roa, iti, nui, poto, pai, kino, rau, ... Maori words commonly used in English by Maori, eg mahi, whakamā, whānau, whāngai, ... Commonly used transliterations --Hugh7 10:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Sailed over vs arrived

As the page history shows, there has been a series of reverts about the exact language in the second paragraph. I argue that "sailed over in canoes" is counter-intuitive. Initially I edited the article, I did not know that Polynesian peoples, especially, actually did sail canoes. I was informed that they did. However, as Ping said, my edit did not change the sense, and I would submit that it is an easier concept to grasp for someone not particularly knowledgeable about NZ/Maori/Polynesian history (i.e. me). Cheers, Smoddy (t) (e) 17:03, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

See how it looks now. I think it conveys the message of both edits - sails and canoes. Grutness|^hello? 08:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Looks good to me. It does explain the concept better now. Smoddy (_t^g_e^c_k) 08:53, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Alphabet

I've added L to the listed alphabet, with the caveat that it is only used in Southern Maori. Grutness|^hello? 05:40, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think L should be listed only as a southern variant of R. Also I'm doubtful that G is distinct from K (where K is the Southern variant of NG: In Southern "kaika", the first K is a K everywhere, but the second is ng in the north. Around Christchurch, they underline the second one. I don't know what they do in Dunedin. We're getting into murky waters of graphemes vs phonemes vs morphemes here. -- Hugh7 22:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Um...you guys realize that the whole alphabet thing is inside an HTML comment tag, right? Tomer ^TALK 06:31, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Yup - if you look at the edit history you'll see that it was put there "for comment", before being put into the article formally. Grutness|^hello? 08:22, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Kia ora na, greetings,

Matters of opinion follow: "Tahitian" and "Rarotongan" are common if incorrect descriptions for what is in fact te reo "Maohi" in Tahiti and te reo "Maori" in Rarotonga. Some may also recognise "Maoli" in Hawaii. Referring to Tahitian, Rarotongan and Hawaiian as languages or dialects makes no more sense than describing te reo Maori as "Aotearoan" or "Cook Islandish." Most academics refer to Cook Islands Maori as "Cook Islands Maori" in the same manner as New Zealand Maori in their corner of Polynesia. In other words, describing someone as New Zealand Maori distinguishes them not just from non-Maori New Zealanders, but also their relations in the Pacific, such as Cook Islands Maori. Not sure how exactly this should be submitted but, for future reference, will watch this part of the wiki to see how these suggestions are handled.

Suggestion: In the interests of clarity I would suggest retaining words like Tahitian and Rarotongan. Improve accuracy by referring to Tahitian Maohi and Rarotongan Maori. This may prove more linguistically versatile as it allows for reporting of variants of Maori, Maohi and Maoli as a language of many dialects. For example, Mangaian Maori. Eventually, European speakers will feel comfortable enough with the word Maori to leave off the 'n' - just as many have done already with a now historical 's'

I can be contacted at the address below:

jason brown editor at avaiki dot nu

Compound nouns

This paragraph confuses me: "Of all of the existing Polynesian languages, Māori is the only member of the group where compound nouns are formed extensively. Long compound nouns are possible in Māori, but unlike German, compound nouns are not heavily used."

• If compound nouns are formed extensively, then it seems tautological to say that they are possible.
• Does "extensively" mean "a great deal", or is it a linguistic term that has a special meaning? If the latter, the term should be explained. If the former, it seems to conflict with the later statement that they are not heavily used.
• What is the distinction being made about "long" compound nouns (presumably cf. shorter ones)?
• The final para compares "long compound nouns" with merely "compound nouns".
• Why is any comparison with German required, or relevant? Why not just say what happens in Maori? Those who know German can make their own comparisons.

Cheers JackofOz 01:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Compounds of more than two nouns are very rare in Māori, so the comparison with German should go. --Hugh7 03:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

(Te) Reo Māori in Mental Health

This section really doesn't belong here. It's not about linguistics or even sociolinguistics, just a short opinion piece about the use of te reo. It's hardly surprising that none of the references has an article. Is there an article about NZ mental health where it can go? -- Hugh7 03:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I took it out. I also took out the reference to "diphthongs" because they are just Maori vowel pairs that happen to sound a bit like English diphthongs, such as ei "ay", ai "I" and are no different in Maori from those that don't, such as ua or ui. --Hugh7 22:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Are you sure you took it out? It still seems to be there. T J McKenzie 00:16, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I have now. Also added the core of Biggs' grammatical structure. I may do something about the phrase later. --Hugh7 08:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Southern dialect

"Kilmog" is given as an example of a word in the southern dialect. It has consecutive consonants ("lm"), which the article says never happens (and I always understood this to be the case). Is this an exception in the southern dialect, or has someone made a mistake? T J McKenzie 00:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

The kirimoku explanation makes things a bit clearer, thanks. I think it's still a bit unclear, though, whether "Kilmog" is an Anglicization of the southern Maori pronunciation, or is exactly the southern Maori pronunciation. If it's the latter, there probably should be some mention somewhere of the exception to the no-consecutive-consonants rule. T J McKenzie 07:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

It's the former and the rule is not broken. -- Hugh7 09:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightstallion (?) 09:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Māori language → Maori language – "Māori" may be correct Maori but it's not English. Also, "Māori" will show up as "M□ori" to users without full character capability (see discussions in previous sections above). The title should reflect the English form and the Maori form can be stated in the first sentence. (Copied from the entry on the WP:RM page)

Please sign you comments with ~~~~

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support. Per above. LuiKhuntek 19:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Tim Q. Wells 21:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Septentrionalis 06:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Jonathunder 16:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. My English dictionary (The New Zealand Oxford Paperback Dictionary) shows it as Māori WP 04:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose. Until the mid-1990s Maori was acceptable, but it is not an accurate way of representating it. The "a" should have a thingy over it. Have a look at other articles Māori, Māori culture, Māori seats, Māori Television, Māori Battalion, Māori politics, Category:Māori, Category:Māori words, Category:Māori people. Are you going to move all these and change all "Māori" to "Maori"? --GeLuxe 22:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• What happened in the mid-1990s that ā suddenly became an English letter? I don't live in New Zealand so we still only use the old 26 letters. (Yes, moving the other articles is fine. I'll be happy to do the work if it's a burden.) LuiKhuntek 08:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• It just is the standard in New Zealand. It is commonly regarded that in the English Wikipedia, articles on British subjects should use standard British spelling, articles on American subjects should use standard American spelling, so therefore articles on New Zealand subjects should use standard New Zealand spelling. "Māori" is part of standard New Zealand spelling - so say all the Kiwis who put in their Oppose votes (including me). Darobsta 09:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. The word is `Māori', I have yet to see a computer that cannot handle this. Onco_p53 23:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Standard New Zealand usage (and therefore Standard English usage) is with the macron. All computers made in the last 10 years should be able to handle this. Also for the changing-the-title-of-every-other-article-beginning-with-Māori-would-be-a-right-pain reason as per GeLuxe. Darobsta 23:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose The word is Māori, and is NZ standard. Brian | (Talk) 00:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose diacritics are generally kept in proper names. This is the current result of a straw poll in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) , although it was a marginal decision (see Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English)/Archive 3#Proposal and straw poll regarding place names with diacritical marks). Ziggurat 00:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose — Māori is the preferred spelling in New Zealand now, and, as such, it is becoming more common. --Gareth Hughes 00:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose— Māori is in the English dictionary as others have noted. Kahuroa 04:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose—Māori is the form NZ is moving toward and is recommended by the Māori Language Commission: 'It is especially important that the distinction – between long and short vowel length be marked – in the same way, all of the time. The Commission believes that the macron is the most efficient means of marking long vowel length, and advocates the use of this marker in all but a handful of cases' [2] (their emphases, though ironic this particular document uses diaereses!) Barefootguru 05:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• That's fine for the Maori Wikipedia but this is English Wikipedia and vowel length in English is not marked with a macron or any other diacritic. How is "Maori" pronounced differently from "Māori" in English? LuiKhuntek 08:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• How is "Fuhrer" pronounced differently from "Führer"? How is "facade" pronounced differently from "façade"? In both of these cases, one is correct, and the other isn't. Like it or not, Wikipedia reflects current trends in the English language. I don't care how the M-word is represented in the varieties of English other than New Zealand English - for the purposes of this article, that doesn't really matter. As I said above, it is a common policy on Wikipedia to adopt the standards and norms of a particular regional standard of written English when there is a clear reason to use that standard. I know "Māori" may seem as barbarous to your eyes as spellings like "hôtel", "rôle" and "élite", but check with the Kiwis who chimed in here, and they'll tell you that the inflected form is the standard. As far as I can tell, none of the Support voters are New Zealanders, whereas I can see a good number of regular NZ Wikipedians have turned up and all said Oppose. Darobsta 12:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose — Moriori 06:00, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose ping 06:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Diacritics are good. —Nightstallion (?) 09:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

A case could even be made for moving to Te Reo Māori. --GeLuxe 22:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe so, otherwise we would be moving French language to Langue française and Russian language to Русский язык. Then there'll be a massive revert war over the proper native name for Standard Mandarin. The English Wikipedia should stay English (though naturally giving information on the source language term at all times).

I oppose this move. If you argue that people are unable to see the "ā" character, then why not change the Führer article too? Māori is the correct spelling. Onco_p53 23:28, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

ü is an ASCII/ANSI character, ā is not. LuiKhuntek 08:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Māori words in/influence on/ New Zealand English

As this section was getting very long, and as it relates to New Zealand English rather than to the Māori language, I have created a new article for it: Māori influence on New Zealand English. Kahuroa 02:58, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

• A good decision. ping 10:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Vocab > Greetings

I took out the long and erratic list of words. No need for a 'vocabulary' here - there are online dictionaries! Left a few phrases as greetings - not sure if even this is necessary tho. Kahuroa 10:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Well is the Cook Islands Māori language section has a full vocab and greetings list, why can't ours? As you have quite rightly stated, that's what dictionaries are for, however, I believe providing such a list here gives an example of how close Cook Islands Māori is to New Zealand Māori, as well as to give people a chance to see what the language looks like in vocabulary. Maori rahi 11:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I was just trying to avoid a list developing that has no overall coherence. I like your idea tho. Greetings might be good in the form of a nicely formatted table which is less prone to being added to at random, I will see what I can come up with. Re comparison of greetings in languages like Cook Islands and Maori to show how they are related, I think that is a good idea to be added to Polynesian languages and show how close all these sister languages are. I will suggest it on Talk:Polynesian languages and maybe start it myself once the table has been done for this page Kahuroa 11:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

relationships to other Austronesian languages

I have taken out of the History section some references to Māori being related to a Philippine language. My main concern is that there seemed to be some kind of tug of war going on with this section - without explanation an unregistered user removed references to Malay and replaced them with Cebuono - I can't see why particularly. The fact is that it is misleading to talk about Māori as having some kind of special relationship to Malay or Philippine languages anyway - because it is not Māori alone that has those relationships, it is the Polynesian languages generally - not even just the Polynesian languages in fact - the same also goes for Fijian and the Vanuatu languages - in fact all the other Oceanic languages - Māori is only one of hundreds of languages that share very distant relationships with Malay and/or the Philippine languages. There is nothing particularly special or interesting about the relationship of either Malay or the Philippine languages to Polynesian anyway - there is no real reason to single them out for mention. These relationships are better mentioned at higher level pages dealing with the Austronesian and/or Oceanic languages generally where they can be seen in their proper context. Kahuroa 11:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Japanese long vowels

I have removed the reference to long vowels being roughly comparative to those of Japanese. I don't think so really - Japanese has an unrounded high back vowel - can anyone think of a better language to compare to? Kahuroa 19:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

To add to section on vowels

Mention of the allophone of /a/ that occurs between w and k - like 'o' in NZ English 'not', eg in 'waka'. Kahuroa 00:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

New external link added

The Ministry for Culture and Heritage's nzhistory.net.nz website has a feature relating to Maori Language Week which includes - among other things - a history of the language. I hope it is ok to add this as a new external link - please let me know if it isn't!

thanks Jamie Mackay 22:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I like it, personally. Thanks for adding! :) Ziggurat 22:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Māori tap

Regarding the removal of some of the explication of the Māori tap, I hate to contradict User:202.74.203.228, but as a Kiwi who interacts with native Māori speakers daily, has an American partner and spent four months of last year in the States, and used to lecture in phonetics and phonology at Massey University, the removed section is accurate. Fortunately, Wikipedia doesn't rely on anyone's word, but demands sources, so here's one detailing the American tap (pdf, from UCLA) and the Maori tap (also a pdf). There may be some small variation in terms of where it is articulated or the length of articulation, but as a general description this is entirely accurate. I can provide more sources if necessary. Ziggurat 05:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Writing System and MAcrons

I would be interested to know when the macrons used in maori writing ("ā" for example) were introduced and why - as the article says, Māori was an oral language until the arrival of the Europeans, so the accents cannot have been instrinsically Maori and must have been put there by Europeans. Were they devised by Hnery Williams or someone at that time or are they a more recent development? My recollection is that they didn't pass into common usage until the last decade or so. ElectricRay 20:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually Māori had a large part in the use of vowel marking systems. They weren't devised by Henry Williams, but Māori themselves used them or similar systems, sporadically at first. There are occasional and inconsistent vowel length markings even in 19th century manuscripts written by Māori. (These markings can include macron-like bars over vowels, or the doubling of the vowels.) In the 19th century Māori-language newspapers, there is some sporadic use of macrons or other length marking methods. In Sir Apirana Ngata's Maori Grammar and Conversation (I have the 7th printing, dated 1953) macrons are used, but a little inconsistently. With the teaching of Māori at Universities since the 1960s, a more systematic use of vowel length marking came into play. At Auckland University, Professor Bruce Biggs (who was of Ngāti Maniapoto descent) promoted the use of double vowels (thus Maaori) and that was the standard at Auckland until Biggs died around 2000. The Māori Language Commission, which is the authority for Māori spelling and orthography, was established by the Māori Language Act 1987, and promoted the use of macrons, as did other universities. As for why, there is a need to mark vowel length because vowel length is phonemic in Māori - it can change the meaning of words:

ata, 'morning', āta, 'carefully'.

mana prestige, māna 'for him/her'.

manu, 'bird', mānu, 'float'

o, 'of', ō 'provisions' and so on Kahuroa 05:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This is very interesting indeed, and seems appropriate to me for inclusion in the article proper. ElectricRay 06:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the name

OK, so this is just me being a stupid American, but I can't be the only one. As a person who speaks American English, my impulse is to pronounce the word "mao-ree", but it also looks like it could be "may-o-ree". There is no indication on the page which it is. Could somebody who knows for sure add the IPA pronunciation (and maybe a recording?) to the first paragraph? I'd be forever grateful. Thor Rudebeck 15:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You're right, it would help, although if you wade through the details about the vowels it should be possible to work it out. I'm no good at adding IPA stuff myself, but to cut a long story short, rhyme it with "bowery" or "dowry" and you're not too far off the mark, although the "o" is a little bit closer to "oh" than either of those. Grutness...wha? 04:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

IPA is a bit redundant with Polynesian languages, since they use the cardinal vowels and the IPA ends up being a repeat of the normal spelling. But I suppose it can help with some of the consonants represented by digraphs. Kahuroa 21:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

dialect

before europeans ame,were there many more languages in nZ.

also,i m sure dialets may exist??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.9.15.116 (talk) 13:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

Calendar section

Does this belong in an article about the language? or should it be split off? Kahuroa 07:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Dialect section

Forgot to note this in the edit summary, but I moved the Dialect section to below Phonology, where it seems to fit better than after the Grammar section Kahuroa 00:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Major changes to the dialect section

I'm a little concerned to note that there have been major changes to the dialect section recently which have removed large amounts of information about the southern dialect: what information has remained has been reduced to a footnote, the replacement of r with l has been explained away as merely European mishearing (a "mishearing" which suspiciously seems to become increasingly more common the further south in NZ you get), and relevant facts about such features as apocope has been removed entirely. I hope this isn't another attempt to marginalise Southern Maori, and that the information will soon return to its rightful place in the article... Grutness...wha? 08:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the material that used to be here is better left out of the article until it can be backed up from linguistic sources. It strikes me that most of the examples given of southern Maori pronunciation are identical to English pronunciation - apocope, consonsant clustering, presence of schwa and other English vowels to name some - so if you are going to claim such features in a Polynesian language you have to back it up convincingly. To me as someone with a background in Polynesian linguistics the features look exactly what you get from people who are primarily English speakers who use English phonotactics and phonemes when pronouncing the few words they know of the other language. No one wants to minimise southern Maori but we need proper citations and quotes from linguists who have carried out properly documented research among native speakers. Kahuroa (talk) 08:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Capitalisation of the term "te reo Maori"

The article currently has Te Reo Māori and Te Reo capitalised like so. I believe it should be te reo Māori and te reo.

1. Te reo Māori and te reo are not proper names.
2. We write the Māori language and the English language, not The Māori Language and The English Language.
3. The Māori Language Commission does not capitalise te reo or reo, except where it is part of a proper name or a heading in title case. Eg,
   1. Statement of Intent 06-07 p2 "The value of reo Maori was recognised ..."; p8 "Kia ora te reo Māori hei reo matua..." etc.
   2. Te Reo Māori - "This article provides a perspective of the history, current use, and likely future of te reo Māori ..." etc. Nurg (talk) 06:27, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

This situation has arisen because it looked odd to me when Nurg changed it, so I changed it back. These things are subjective anyway, and if its good enough for Te Taura Whiri i te Reo Māori, it's good enough for me. Thanks Nurg, well spotted. Kāhuroa (talk) 08:03, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Status as an endangered language

For the editor who requires citations about the endangered status of the Māori language: See 2004 press release by Māori Language Commission [3]. The stats are still pretty dire, see [4]. Also, read this 2007 article in the Dominion Post [5] Kahuroa (talk) 01:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

related to versus resembles

The term 'related to' keeps being targeted by helpful editors who seem to see it as a sloppy use of the passive voice, and replace it with 'resembles' or worse, 'relates to'. In fact 'to be related to' is the correct way to show that languages are well, related; 'relates to' has a different and inappropriate meaning, while changing it to 'resembles' just doesn't cut it, since languages can resemble each other in various ways without necessarily being related at all. Related here means related in a linguistic sense as descendants of a protolanguage; in the case of Māori, Cook Islands Māori and Tahitian, the protolanguage is Tahitic, a subdivision of Eastern Polynesian. Kahuroa (talk) 21:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)