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{| style="margin: 1em auto 1em auto"
|topic=Philrelig
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{{talkheader}}
{{archive box|* [[Talk:Atlantis/archive|Archive]]
*[[Talk:Atlantis/archive1|Archive 1 (11/04-2/06)]]
*[[Talk:Atlantis/archive2|Archive 2 (11/05-5/06)]]
*[[Talk:Atlantis/archive3|Archive 3 (6/06-9/06)]]
*[[Talk:Atlantis/archive4|Archive 4 (9/06-4/08)]]}}


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==Measurements==
<blockquote><table class="wikitable">
I see that Plato's measurements (stades/stadia) are tranlsated into kilometres and miles, but by what criteria? Rodney Castleden's Atlantis destroyed gives different equivalents, ie 50 stades he says are 9 km, and 3000 stadia 350 km, which differs from the figures in this article. That at least is a reference, can anyone find anything more authoritative? Thanks.[[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 18:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
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===<center>My Tools</center>===
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*[http://stable.toolserver.org/acc/acc.php Account Creator Interface]
::Accuracy discussion: It's either 8 stades to a "roman mile", or 1 stade = [http://www.eim.org.gr/html/english/metrology/history/greece.html 185 meters]. So a different methodology could cause a little error. Some rounding error is present as well. Additionally, it appears that [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_units_of_measurement wiki],[http://books.google.com/books?id=ouAtAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA289&lpg=PA289&dq=attic+stadion&source=web&ots=B87ZymER8Y&sig=RWcVWxo8gKZrGq3mC1dnd-WL-S4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result another source] has changed from 185 meters to 177.6 meters, so there is apparently some margin of error on the Attic Stadion, though 185 is the most common number.


*[[Wikipedia:Welcoming_committee/Finding_newbies|Newbies]]
::Using the 185 meters method, 50 stades = 9.25 Kilometers, or 5.75 miles. 2000 stades=370 km or 229.91 miles. 3000 stades=555 km, or 344.86 miles. -- Rich 9/29/08


*[[Special:NewPages|New Pages]]
== Possible location ==


*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChangesLinked/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Judaism/watchlist Recent Changes on WikiProject_Judaism]
i think i posted this on the talk page last year but someone deleted it.
it's an interesting website placing Atlantis near the east indies,
it has pretty convincing information and a checklist which compares all speculated locations.
I think parts of it citing the East Indies as a possible location should be included in this article
[http://www.atlan.org/articles/checklist/index.html Atlantis Checklist] <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/84.53.88.129|84.53.88.129]] ([[User talk:84.53.88.129|talk]]) 08:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


*[[Wikipedia:Editor's_index_to_Wikipedia|Editor's Index to Wikipedia]]
::This is covered in the appropriate article, [[Location hypotheses of Atlantis]], not all significant suggestions can be in this article.--[[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 16:15, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


*[[Special:RecentChangesLinked/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Orthodox_Judaism/Articles Recent Changes on WikiProject_Orthodox_Judaism| Recent Changes to Orthodox Judaism Project]]
== New Age? ==


</td>
I'm not at all sure we have enough information on the modern "New Age" stuff about Atlantis. It should be written in a way that makes it clear that it's lunatic fringe stuff, but it should get more coverage because it's pretty common (at least as common as [[chemtrails]].) I'd write it myself, but I don't have enough info. [[User:Vultur|Vultur]] ([[User talk:Vultur|talk]]) 00:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


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===<center>Articles I'm Working On</center>===
==[[:Image:AncientPhonecian.jpg]]==
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hey guys, this image clearly represents a Minoan woman, it was shot at Akrotiri, why then is it linked to [[Phoenicia]]? need expert opinion if anyone can help. ;) [[User:Elie plus|<font color="red">Eli</font>]][[User talk:Elie plus|<font color="green">+</font>]] 20:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
*[[Bezalel Rudinsky]]
::Because the people who researched and published the book "Phoenicians: Lebanon's Epic Heritage" disagree with your controversial opinion to the extend that they feature it on the front cover of their book.[http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MR2ZXVDFL._SS500_.jpg] That is why it is linked to Phoenicia. ;} - [[User:Gennarous|Gennarous]] ([[User talk:Gennarous|talk]]) 22:05, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
*[[Benjamin Blech]]
*[[Armitron]]


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:::I'm glad this was brought to our attention. One review at amazon.com says "On the cover of this book is a detail from one of the frescoes found on the Greek, Aegean island of Thera (Santorini). This site was destroyed by a volcanic eruption in 1623 BC. It is not "Phoenician", or Lebanese!
:::On Thera, scenes/decorations depicted on wall frescoes are replicated on the daggers which have been found in the shaft graves of the Greek mainland city of Mycenae. Indeed, the same type of dagger has been found on Thera. Ships depicted on one of the frescoes on Thera are identical to ships depicted on signet rings, as per examples from graves on the Greek mainland site of Tyrins. Boar's tusk helmets depicted on another fresco at Thera are attested to on the entire Greek mainland as well as on Krete and are described in great detail as being worn by the Greeks besieging Troy in Homer's Iliad. A lady depicted on an adjacent fresco to the one pictured on the cover wears ear rings identical to those which are found in another of the shaft graves at Mycenae. The writing of Mycenaeans, known as "Linear B", was translated in 1954 by the Englishman Michael Ventris: it is Greek & dates to the 15th century BC. How do Mycenaean/Greek motifs come to be used as illustrating the world of Lebanese/Phoenicians? This book is propaganda. You don't have to go beyond the front cover to realise this.
:::So far as I can find, Sanford Holst is good at publicity but gets no mention in scholarly journals. Since his other books are about things such as 'miracle health tea' and 'A very special moment in your life', etc, I'm not surprised. Interesting that the only books published by the publisher of this book are -- by Sanford Holst. In other words, probably self published. --[[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 07:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


==Location hypotheses of Atlantis==
The reference to location hypotheses in the main article should reflect the classification of the more detailed article on location, namely...
::1 In or near the Mediterranean Sea
::2 In the Atlantic Ocean
::3 Other locations
...and not Inside or Outside the Mediterranean as it currently does.


<!-- TABLE 3 -->
It would add balance to the article to mention explicitly the location hypotheses in the Atlantic Ocean. [[User:Odin 85th gen|Odin 85th gen]] ([[User talk:Odin 85th gen|talk]]) 20:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
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===<center>Articles I Started</center>===
:I don't think it matters very much as we already have an article all about location hypotheses, this is just a quick summary.--[[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 21:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
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*[[Bezalel Rudinsky]] (August 2008)
*[[Benjamin Blech]] (August 2008)
*[[Armitron]] (August 2008)
*[[Hackensack University Medical Center North at Pascack Valley]] (October 2008)
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::I´ve attempted to rearrange to better reflect the main strands of hypotheses. What do you think? Personally, I prefer this approach for improved balance and clarity of main ideas. [[User:Odin 85th gen|Odin 85th gen]] ([[User talk:Odin 85th gen|talk]]) 10:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


</table></blockquote>
== Dogger Bank ==
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{{User:Alexnia/Userboxes/Vandalized|7}}
First, to say that anything is 'interesting' with no reference saying it is interesting is OR. Secondly, the reference doesn't claim Atlantis has been found, although the headline says 'Britain's Atlantis' (ie Britain's sunken land - note not 'Plato's Atlantis'. I know Vince Gaffney, he's taught me, and he would never claim to have found Atlantis anywhere. Erlingsson thinks that the memory of the Dogger Bank sinking is the source of the legend, and that is covered in [[Location hypotheses of Atlantis]] (which this article should only be covering as a very brief summary, not mentioning all the possible locations).--[[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 11:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
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:I think it is an articifial distinction you raise between "popular" and "academic" theories about Atlantis in the media, as well as the distinction between Atlantis and Plato's Atlantis. Popular theories are legitimate for inclusion in Wikipedia articles as well. Granted, I agree the mention could be brief. I invite you to consider editing the mention for accuracy, but would hope you agree with its mention remaining in the main article. This information would be of considerable interest to the general readership inquiring about the subject. This is perhaps the most tangible evidence to date for the theory of Plato's Atlantis having been in the North Atlantic Ocean. If you are fixed in your opposition to the reference being there, we can seek a third oppinion. [[User:Odin 85th gen|Odin 85th gen]] ([[User talk:Odin 85th gen|talk]]) 14:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
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::I'm not against popular theories, but where in that reference is Atlantis suggested? NOT the headline, never pay much attention to headlines, they are written by headline writers often with disregard to the content. I used to work for a newspaper, my brother owned one and now teaches journalism, this is something I know about.--[[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 14:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
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:::I am older than ''two winters'' myself and have seen a lot of headlines and think you are off on the wrong track. Stop for a moment and think this through. Why are they called headlines? It is because they encapsulate what the journalist wants to tell his readers. The journalist is stating the OBVIOUS popular theory that Dogger Bank is Atlantis with the headline. Having been around the block, I also know that the interview with the Professor is a side event. The journalist is only interested in getting body text for the story, to give the headline legitimacy. Even if the information given by the innocent professor goes far short of the popular theory, the headline nonetheless places the key emphasis on the popular theory. It is that simple. A reference to this popular theory belongs in this section of the main article.[[User:Odin 85th gen|Odin 85th gen]] ([[User talk:Odin 85th gen|talk]]) 19:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

::::Journalists don't write headlines normally, which is why the article doesn't mention Atlantis. And the story comes first, then the headline, not the other way around as you seem to be suggesting. IF it is a popular theory you should hav no problems finding a reliable source for it. If there are no reliable sources, it can't be a popular theory. That is what seems obvious.--[[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 20:39, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

:::::Popular here refers to something that is the opposite of academe - or less than highbrow. The reference to the idea has been given in a credible newspaper article. That is as straight forward and [[tangible]] a reference as Wikipedia requires. It is not helpful to engage in [[solipsism|Solipsistic]] logic.[[User:Odin 85th gen|Odin 85th gen]] ([[User talk:Odin 85th gen|talk]]) 21:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

::::::Wikipedia doesn't work like that. Even the headline doesn't say Plato's Atlantis, it says Britain's Atlantis, ie Britain's sunken land. You need to read [[WP:RS]] and if you don't agree, take it up on their noticeboard, just go to [[WP:RSN]] and put your case.--[[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 21:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Three things. First, Plato never discussed "Plato's Atlantis", he only wrote about Atlantis. The issue is therefore Atlantis, plain and simple. Second, Britain's Atlantis refers to a location hypothesis. It is not about Britain's thoughts or story of Atlantis, but the possiblity of the location of Atlantis being in Britains backyard. Third, the Times is a reliable source.[[User:Odin 85th gen|Odin 85th gen]] ([[User talk:Odin 85th gen|talk]]) 21:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

== American Atlantis Research ==

Added *[http://atlantis.onestop.net American Atlantis Research - The Latin American Theory] to the external links section as this has been requested before and fixed error in link.

Kind of interesting theories <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Darkbreed|Darkbreed]] ([[User talk:Darkbreed|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Darkbreed|contribs]]) 00:03, 21 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Plato's account and lacking citation and sources ==

Please note that ''Timaeus'' continues ''The Republic'', and the actual trilogy is ''The Republic'', ''Timaeus'' and ''Critias''. If Benjamin Jowett believed Plato had planned another dialogue, it would have been fourth.

Apart from this, the entire article lacks citation where arguable points are raised. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Hypomixolydian|Hypomixolydian]] ([[User talk:Hypomixolydian|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hypomixolydian|contribs]]) 14:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::The Republic has different participants than Timaeus and Critias and is thus unrelated entirely. If I were choosing a related myth, I'd choose Protagoras, which discusses the brother of Atlas, Prometheus, and has a common participant, Critias. -- Rich 9/29/08
:::Eh? As our article on the ''Timaeus'' says, ''The dialogue takes place the day after Socrates described his ideal state. In Plato's works such a discussion occurs in the Republic. Socrates feels that his description of the ideal state wasn't sufficient for the purposes of entertainment and that "I would be glad to hear some account of it engaging in transactions with other states" (19b).'' How is this 'unrelated entirely'? Who the participants were has nothing to do with this. [[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 13:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

::::"The dialogue takes place the day after..." This appears to be a controversial and false interpretation. This chronology seems to stem from the term [http://plato-dialogues.org/email/980615_1.htm Kephalaus] in 19a, which also appears in the Republic. -- Rich 9/29/08
::::[http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/plato.htm#SH3a Source1:] "The Timaeus (17b-19b) may refer to Republic as coming before it"
::::[http://books.google.com/books?id=U-oYAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA259&lpg=PA259&dq=timaeus+day+after+republic&source=web&ots=Ea7iCRbDju&sig=1y6lxHnrNailcSdEMkpOMdCRz1o&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result Source2:] "The assumed chronological order of the pieces is Republic, Timaeus, Critias : i.e. the Conversation at the house of Cephalus is repeated next day by Socrates to Timaeus, Critias, Hermocrates, and another — this is the Republic; the day after that again, Socrates, Timaeus, Critias, and Hermocrates meet, and the Conversation and Discourse which constitute the Timaeus are held, followed by the Myth related by Critias in the unfinished piece which bears his name."
::::Plato's Timaeus says there was a feast of honor the previous day, and that all of these participants were together (Hence Socrates was not with the participants of the Republic. Timaeus: "[17b]...after the splendid hospitality we received from you yesterday"-- Rich 9/30/08

== First mentioned ==
"Atlantis (in Greek, Ἀτλαντὶς νῆσος, "island of Atlas") is the name of a legendary island, first mentioned in Plato's dialogues Timaeus and Critias.[1]"
...
"Other than Plato's Timaeus and Critias there is no primary ancient account of Atlantis, which means every other account on Atlantis relies on Plato in one way or another."

Hellanicus Atlantis story, which discusses the Pleiades and Hyades (daughters of Atlas), and mentions islands, "Islands of the Blessed", pre-dates Plato's account of Atlantis. Herodotus also used the term Atlantis before Plato. -- Rich 9/29/08
:Herodotus uses the word 'Atlantis' to refer to the 'Sea beyond the Pillars', which he says is the same as the 'Sea which the Hellenes navigate' and the Erythraian Sea' (but distinct, he says, from the Caspian Sea'. Hellanicus was well known for his mythographical and genealogical work. [[Hellanicus of Lesbos]] wrote about the daughter of Atlas. What still exists (a few lines) includes the line ''Poseidon mated with Celaeno, and their son Lycus was settled by his father in the Isles of the Blest and made immortal.'' Plato says Poseidon mated with Cleito and had a son Atlas who became ruler of Atlantis. There's also bits about Atlas's daughters and their relationships with various gods.

:A transcription and/or translation of Hellanicus Atlantis I fragment is in:
:Robert L. Fowler, Early Greek Mythography Volume 1: Text and Introduction. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2000. Pp. xlviii, 459. ISBN 0-19-814740-6.
:The first mention of Atlantis is in Plato. The term was used in other ways by Herodotus and Hellanicus. [[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 13:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
::Note: Herodotus uses this term elsewhere, as well. [http://books.google.com/books?id=QsIcxGrq6QAC&pg=PA269&lpg=PA269&dq=%22the+Pillar+of+Heaven%22+herodotus&source=web&ots=F1cLx10-iq&sig=4spk4bcn2N-fnQgSh-KSiHwZXTI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result#PPA269,M1 Herodotus 4.185] "and near this salt is a mountain, which is called Atlas ; it is narrow and circular on all sides, and is said to be so lofty that its top can never be seen ; for it is never free from clouds, either in summer or winter. The inhabitants say that it is the Pillar of Heaven. From this mountain these men derive their appellation, for they are called Atlantes. "..."Thus, then, as far as the lake Tritonis from Egypt" -- 9/30/08 <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/66.151.47.194|66.151.47.194]] ([[User talk:66.151.47.194|talk]]) 13:10, 30 September 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

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