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User:Second Skin violating topic ban and other issues

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Second Skin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive912#Genre warrior disrupting the Babymetal article - once again
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1141#Being hounded by an administrator

In two previous ANIs Second Skin was first advised to tone it down then topic banned from music genre writ large. Specifically "Second Skin is indefinitely topic bannned from all pages and discussions relating to music genres. @Doug Weller: talk 18:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)". This user appears to be violating this topic ban wholesale. [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9]

User also has a history of flagrantly ignoring communications and warnings from other users and admins and directives from admins and using edit summaries to have discussions despite being told by Drmies to cease doing so, and ignored suggestions from other admins such as NinjaRobotPirate (these include arguably legitimate blanking of own talk page but reflect ignorance of the messages): [10][11][12]"fuck off" to Drmies"lol go away"[13][14][15][16]"fuck off"[17]"fuck off""fuck off""fuck off"[18][19][20]

Currently engaged in a silly dispute over whether Aztec, New Mexico, apparently legally classified as a city, should be called a town. Refuses to see that inserting user's own opinion on this is OR, cites other Wikipedia articles as sources for it being called a town. [21](alters citation to US census describing it as a city)"empty threats"[22]

Due to long history of problems, disrespect for admins and other users and Wikipedia processes, I am asking for an indefinite block at this time. —DIYeditor (talk) 01:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

My edits to the first few things that are linked were to remove him supposedly being a fan of a type of music, how does this fit any "topic ban" of any kind? If I am not mistaken that was a past problem of genres being sourced directly on music articles. What I edited above were not music articles. If something (indirectly) runs into the broad category of a music genre I am in violation somehow? I only removed stuff about music that supposedly motivated a school shooter, which is completely different.

Also my "silly edit war" about a small town in New Mexico was 2 reverts and I stopped doing it and took it to the talk page??? What?

Never told Drmies to fuck off.... That thread was started by an IP address and I was already brought into scolding about that anyway

Everything else you linked was 8 years ago or. Seriously. 8 or 9 years ago. Do you have any better ammo? Are you seriously this mad because of a small dispute on a article about a town that i stopped involving myself in immediately after? So you bring up ancient stuff (and in some cases inproperly address me for some of these things of stuff I didnt actually do). Ever since I took a break and came back I have been very careful with the way I engage and try to improve pages. If I accidentally run into the theme of music indirectly concerning an article then I'm not sure how that's invadable. Music is very commonly connected to a lot of things. I have never edit warred with anyone about music genres for a very long time Second Skin (talk) 02:07, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@Second Skin: Witch house (genre) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views): 7 edits this year. It's literally an article about a music genre. This could get into WP:COMPETENCE if you don't see how an article about a music genre violates a topic ban on all pages and discussions related to music genres. The history is not all years ago some of it is recent, and it's necessary to show the pattern. You don't give a damn what people say to you. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

So I cant revert peoples unsourced stuff off the page? That other people were reverting as well? It's not even edit warring of any kind it's just typical IP-address removal stuff, what if I used twinkle and one of the reverts I made accidentally edited a page for a music genre? Aside from all this you very clearly have a really bad vendetta against me considering you took the time to actually haul together stuff I said from about a deacde ago, which was already addressed with me forever ago with admins quite a couple times. I dont even remember much of that stuff because it was so long ago. And on top of that you're also lying about me telling a specific person to "fuck off" when you can very clearly see that the thread was made by an IP address (...so nice try). And youre also lying saying Im still engaged in some debate over calling a town a city when I already disengaged from that, and I even commented on the talk page about that matter since then, thus proving I wasnt edit warring and already directly took it to direct correspondences. You're also really severely twisting narratives here and exaggerating matters or even lying about stuff I didn't actually say. Or bringing up stuff from a deacde ago that was already addressed with me here before.... with other people... a decade ago.... I have been very careful with my edits and have been improving articles such as this one and others since my return. I left the page that you're mad about alone. This is ridiculous. I have my regrets for saying "fuck off" when I was a freshman high school student, I know it wasn't the best thing to say if that makes you feel any better. Second Skin (talk) 02:29, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

If you are unable to understand that Second Skin is indefinitely topic bannned from all pages and discussions relating to music genres requires you not to make any edits to articles about music genres, it is probably a WP:COMPETENCE issue. Not to mention the other edits related to music genres I showed above. As to "fuck off", how are we to know whom you were addressing with "fuck off" as the last person to comment in what you removed appears to have been Drmies - maybe part of why you were told to stop having discussions in edit summaries, which you did not stop. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

So I cant revert peoples unsourced stuff off the page? - Short answer is No. Here is the diff where it explicity states: If you're in any doubt as to whether an edit you plan would violate this ban, please ask me or another admin before making it. What made you think that Witch house (genre) and Horrorcore were not music genres? Why didn't you ask an admin as advised? Isaidnoway (talk) 07:34, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

"So I cant revert peoples unsourced stuff off the page? That other people were reverting as well?" No, you cannot. If you have a logged, community-endorsed TBAN that was not given a set expiration and has not been appealed, you are proscribed from making any edits to articles which fall within the scope of that ban, as is clearly the case here. Honestly, I'm finding myself in alignment with DIY's analysis of your responses: if you're telling us that that after at least 11 years on this project, you do not understand such basic truisms about community sanctions that have been applied to you, you are either feigning ignorance or there very likely is a basic competency/literacy with baseline community guidelines concern here.

Nor is that the only issue with your conduct that DIY has diffed here. First off, you are not allowed to tell anyone to "fuck off" here, admin or IP. Nor does your argument that DIY is fixating on old behaviours from a much younger and less put-together person track, because some of the instances are from within the last six months. I'll be blunt with you: I'm not sure you can avoid a block at this point--your violation of the ban has been so blatant, and your inability to address the issue so complete. The community understandably takes a dim view of having tried to apply a tailored approach to keeping a user on the project and away from their problem areas, only to have those restrictions utterly disregarded. But if you want to minimize the duration or scope of any further sanctions, you will at a minimum need to stop trying to obviate (and arguably obfuscating) concerns regarding your ban evasion. Your effort to cast the concerns raised by the OP of this thread as invalid, exaggerated, or representative of some sort of obsession by DIY do not hold up to scrutiny of even just the diffs already linked above. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 07:38, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

IMO, while the "fuck off" etc stuff is definitely not historic, I don't think it should count for that much since unless I missed something, the editor finally seems to have cut down on that or at least the diffs on that issue look like they predate the ANI which resulted in the topic ban. I mean it's not a good look that it took them so long to to learn. In particular with their apparent inability to understand their topic ban, an argument could be made 'well if it took them that long to work out not to do that, how long is it going to take them to work out how to obey their topic ban'. The fact that they seemed to be downplaying their very recent civility problems obviously doesn't help either. Still I'd be reluctant to support sanction due to behaviour that the editor may have finally stopped. Note that editor's engagement with others could still be below the standard we'd expect even without them telling others to "fuck off". This isn't something I've looked at. Nil Einne (talk) 12:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

That's a useful observation, Nil Einne, and I agree with both the main thrust of your point and the caveats. That said, the core issue of the TBAN violations themselves remains, and I do have lingering concerns about the discussion style/respect for WP:CIV, even if we decide to AGF that the worst PAs will not repeat. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 07:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy pinging everyone involved in the ANI that resulted in a TBAN other than those already pinged: TheDragonFire300 Viriditas GhostOfDanGurney Acroterion (omitting Tazmin because I believe they don't wish notices about admin-related things) Black Kite Objective3000 Eyesnore Hammersoft Lourdes Cullen328 Ravenswing WaltCip Deepfriedokra Bishonen Siroxo ARoseWolf GiantSnowman Uncle G Nil Einne Beyond My Ken Ad Orientem Snow Rise Equilibrial —DIYeditor (talk) 07:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Second Skin, it is pretty simple: First, you were topic banned from music genres. Then, you made several edits pertaining to music genres. Ergo, you overtly violated your topic ban. Trying to wriggle your way out is not going to work. Recommendation: Admit your violation and promise to never repeat it. Keep your promise. Frankly, about 95% of the editing about "music genres" is unproductive bullshit of zero value to readers. Why not edit the encyclopedia productively instead? Cullen328 (talk) 07:42, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Given that I've been pinged to this discussion, I do concour that the above doesn't give me confidence that Second Skin truly understands his topic ban and that it alone is sufficient to prevent disruption. Although I'd wait for any further specific sanction discussions before weighing in on those. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 12:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

As Cullen already said, [User:Second Skin]], it's simple. Drmies (talk) 13:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Doug Weller talk 13:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Concur. @Second Skin Cullen has given you an off ramp. I suggest you take it. Acknowledge your mistakes, and please give us unequivocal assurances that you will respect the topic ban and be civil in your interactions with other editors going forward. I will simply add that this is likely to be the last stop on this particular train before it goes to a block. You obviously have the capacity and desire to be a productive member of the community. Let's not drag this out. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Concur with others above. This is a clear cut violation of the topic ban and is not tolerable. That's a lot of voices saying it's a topic ban violation. I'm going to place a final warning on Second Skin's talk page, and hopefully make it unequivocal. Indeed, this is the last stop. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:45, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I concur with all stated here. --ARoseWolf 16:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

As do I. Ravenswing 18:57, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposal: Temporary Indef

Proposal: Second Skin is to be indefinitely blocked until such time as they make an unblock request which satisfies the reviewing admin as to the fact that Second Skin acknowledges and understands the previous breaches of their topic ban and commits to avoiding the topic area they are meant to be proscribed from. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 21:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support/Nom: It's impossible to know whether or not the lack of response here, since the community made it's perspective on these violations of the TBAN known, is a case of ANI flu or not. On the other hand, I don't think it matters. All we have from this user so far is a lot of IDHT on the violations, and then complete radio silence as soon as it became clear that the unanimous community response was that the violations were quite obvious and flagrant--after which the community gave Second Skin an entirely easy and convenient out, that merely requires them to make a minimalistic statement of acknowledgment and acceptance of what their TBAN requires of them, going forward.
  Until we have that kind of basic commitment that Second Skin understands and will abide by their existing sanctions this time around, I don't think we can be confident that this user will not be further disruptive in the area in question. Of course, ideally, Second Skin will respond before this resolution passes and obviate the need for it to be applied. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 21:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support You guys are more patient than I am. This user seems to me to be at the far end of not liking rules and not liking to be told what to do. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:17, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support I believe they need some kind of block.CycoMa1 (talk) 02:36, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support After blatantly violating the topic ban and being combative when discussing the ban, this is absolutely appropriate. Editing is inappropriate until a reviewing admin has a good faith belief that their conduct will improve. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 06:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support per pretty blatant violation of their topic ban and seeming refusal to accept how they did so. The Kip ^(contribs) 06:32, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support: Didn't we see this back in October? Honestly, I just don't get the people for whom the reaction to a TBAN or a block of any length is anything other than (a) sit down, stop squawking, and follow the rules; or (b) just walk away from Wikipedia for good, if doing (a) is intolerable. I have never had a block, ban or anything of the sort, but if I had, I'd wrap my head around the premise that following the rules is not optional. Ravenswing 06:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support - Usually when someone flagrantly disregards a topic ban and shows no sign they can/will abide by it and/or starts causing similar issues in other topic areas, the remedy is an indef. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 17:08, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Wiki wikied retracting other editors comments

Wiki wikied (talk · contribs) is repeatedly reverting one specific comment made by Island92 (talk · contribs) at Talk:2024 Formula One World Championship:

1. Special:Diff/1225346948
2. Special:Diff/1225348091
3. Special:Diff/1225636335
4. Special:Diff/1225644502
5. Special:Diff/1225645092
6. Special:Diff/1225645797

In Special:Diff/1225348091 they wrote "Deleted due to assumed pronoun usage" as a rational.

I explained in great length that this was inappropriate when I reverted instance number 3, and I also explained what i thought would be the appropriate steps (Special:Diff/1225642015). I also left a similar explanation at their talk page along with {{uw-tpv1}} (Special:Diff/1225644072). However, Wiki wikied keeps deleting these comments (I know this is their right) and seemingly ignoring them. I most recently escalted to {{uw-tpv3}} (Special:Diff/1225645397). Howrever, edit number 6 above came about 6 minutes after I posted that notice (and Wiki wikied is aware of that notice, because hethey deleted it). Please can an editor of higher standing assist in this where I have failed. Thanks. SSSB (talk) 20:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

If someone keeps reverting things because they don't like having their pronouns assumed, perhaps the solution is to stop assuming their pronouns? (Underlining added, not in original post.) Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 01:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree but the user needs to realise that "he" can be used to describe someone whose gender is unspecified ([23]) and people make mistakes - like above where auto-correct appears to have corrected a typoed "they" into "he". They can't just delete every comment where the incorrect pronoun is used. SSSB (talk) 03:02, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

That's a ridiculous response. Using "their" is clearly a neutral pronoun and is not an "assumption", aside from Wiki wikied refusing to clarify or engage in any way to constructively resolve the disagreement (which could have been rather straightforward). "If someone keeps reverting things because they don't like having their pronouns assumed", then that's petty, childish, and most importantly disruptive. We don't accept disruption because someone "doesn't like" the situation. That's not how we resolve issues and disagreements and "not liking" a simple error by Island92 (who I believe does not speak English as a first language) does not excuse or justify this disruptive behaviour. In fact, this has been the only thing they have engaged with on-wiki since April – a pretty strong indication that they're WP:NOTHERE to do anything constructive at all. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 03:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Fairly sure Shirt58 is referring to the original comment which did use "he" throughout. I actually agree with Shirt58 regardless of he and she sometimes being used when gender is unspecified, it's increasing controversial and so should be avoided and especially avoided if someone objects. However, I don't think removing the comment was an acceptable solution and getting into an edit war over it even less. That said, if Island92 was one of those involved in the revert war, the immediate solution was for them to simply modify their comments. Editors could still discuss with Wiki wikied somewhere about better ways to handle such objections, but it benefits no one to insist in the right to call someone "he" when they've clearly objected no matter how poor their objection may be. But it doesn't look like Island92 was involved which complicates things since I'm unconvinced another editor should be editing Island92's comments. Nil Einne (talk) 03:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

No, SSSB's original post here used "they" and "their" throughout (diff). Island92 has not been involved since posting the original comment, which was about a seperate disagreement that has since been resolved. The message in question was posted on 21 April, and Wiki wikied let it stand without any engagement until 23 May. Nobody is trying to establish a right to call Wiki wikied by "he", the goal is here is to escalate the disagreement to prevent an editor from continuing to be deliberately disruptive. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 03:28, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes but that has nothing to do with what I said which is that Shirt58 is saying the comment being warred over was a problem, not that SSSB's comment is a problem. There is nothing in Shirts58's comment to suggest they were objecting to pronoun usage here. Nil Einne (talk) 05:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

You mean adding underlining to SSSB's post isn't such a suggestion? 5225_C (talk • contributions) 05:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I thought Shirt58 was suggesting that the solution was for Island92 to use they rather than he. However it seems their underlining was probably an emphasis that SSSB should have stuck with they rather than using he once, now acknowledged and due to a typo. Regardless, my main point remains. It seems clear Shirt58 wasn't objecting to the use of their etc. They were supporting it and emphasising all editors need to stick with it and not use he even once. Nil Einne (talk) 05:55, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

If that's the case then I have no problem with Shirt58's comment, I agree it's always best practice to use a neutral pronoun until certain of what is appropriate. 06:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 5225C (talk • contribs) ^<diff>

I used "he" once (where I struck it out). Everother instance used they or their some of which were later underlined by Shirt58. This was not an assumption, it was a typo being auto-corrected. My assumption right now would be to use "she" (balance of propabilites, only a small minority use pronouns of "they/them"). I agree with everything else you're saying - I tried to explain to Wiki wikied that if they objected to the pronouns someone used to describe them to take it up with the offending editor (and by all means consider it a personal attack if they refuse to acknowlegde your obejction to pronoun usage). But however controversial it may be, "he" is and can be used where gender is unspecified, and people do still make mistakes where gender is specified. People make typos, and in 6 months I may forget Wiki wikied's pronouns and default to "he" in a case of unspecified gender (linguistically acceptable even if contorversial). But to flat-out remove the comment is not appropriate or helpful and if we can't edit comments to correct grammar we shouldn't correct them for pronouns either? SSSB (talk) 03:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

If you can't remember preferred pronouns I strongly suggest you stop using he by default. If you refer to Wiki wikied ever again in a situation where it is not a typo, I'd support an indefinite block of you. And if you made a typo which resulted in incorrect pronoun usage, then even more reason for Shirt58 to object. The correct response is to apologise for your offensive typo and not claim it doesn't matter because it was simply a typo. The fact you did not set out to offend, doesn't change the offence caused by your actions. As I said below, this whole war is made even more silly by the fact the comment itself was a fairly pointless comment which doesn't even belong on the article talk page. So regardless of the poor way Wiki wikied handled this, I think it's a reasonable question to ask whether there's any real advantage to bringing this to ANI, and then make an offensive typo while doing do. Nil Einne (talk) 05:52, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

If you refer to Wiki wikied ever again in a situation where it is not a typo, I'd support an indefinite block of you. That's an entirely unwarranted response and I cannot think of any administrator that would seriously consider that an appropriate course of action. But I think it's clear to everyone here that using a neutral pronoun is best practice, that's not why we're here or what the core issue is. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 06:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I find that Template:They is useful in these cases. Hatman31 (he/him · talk · contribs) 19:30, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Just a note that I had warned with {{uw-tpv1}} here for edit #1 (which had no edit summary about pronoun use) before those three warnings, so there were technically four warnings. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 01:53, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Putting aside the pronoun issue, IMO the dispute is fairly silly since the actual comment being warred over doesn't really belong to the talk page. If Island92 wants to warn another editor they're free to do so themselves. But they should be doing so on the editor's talk page not the article talk page. Then the editor warned would be free to remove the comment without issue. The talk page should be used for discussing the changes rather than warning others. I still don't think Wiki wikied should have removed it like that especially without a decent explanation, but the fact remains if we step back the whole dispute is IMO very silly. Nil Einne (talk) 05:40, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree, it's petty and unproductive. However, Wiki wikied is still acting disruptively, and their editing activity since April (which has only been reverting the comment in question and removing warnings from their own talk page) suggests that this disruption could actually be deliberate. A warning that this disruption will not be tolerated, and that a block may follow if their activity continues to be purely disruptive in nature, is an appropriate response to resolve this. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 05:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Then give such a warning. My point is that ultimately anyone involved was always free to do so so there's no reason this needs to be at ANI. ANI is for serious issues not those that can be resolved by someone recognising that even if the reasoning was poor, in the end there is no harm to removing that comment since it's something that simply didn't belong on the talk page so they could simply warn everyone who needed it not to repeat that shit again. Nil Einne (talk) 06:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

We're at ANI because Wiki wikied has ignored all warnings (consult their talk page's history) and is continuing to disrupt. This may warrant administrator intervention to deter further disruption. 06:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 5225C (talk • contribs) ^<diff>

I ran out of time to post this but if an admin wants to block Wiki wikied I see no harm in that. However I've tried to resolve the immediate issue by removing the misplaced warning and explained to Island92 why I did so and what to do with warnings in the future and also asked them not to refer to Wiki wikied as "he". I've also warned Wiki wikied against doing such removals again emphasising that even if they've asked an editor not to do that the correctly solution is to report it rather than remove it. Nil Einne (talk) 07:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your initiative Nil Einne – I see Wiki wikied has removed your warning so they have seen it, hopefully they heed that advice and there won't be any further disruptive behaviour. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 07:13, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I've already said quite a lot so I'll leave probably one final comment. First I'll acknowledge I missed that the comment being removed was over a month old, I had thought it was quite recent. Even so, this only makes a minor change to my thinking.

I feel we and I'm definitely including myself in that, have a tendency to miss the forest from the trees in some disputes, and this is IMO one such example. As I've said, being generous the comment was at best a misplaced warning to a specific editor which would belong on the editor's talk page and not the article talk page.

IMO, it wasn't even one of those warnings that was a combination of warning plus possible starting point for discussion over some dispute. At least to me as an uninvolved editor, it's very difficult to parse from that comment why Island92 objects to the change and feels it's not an improvement other than something about "see history".

Assuming the history most likely refers to the article, I had a look and found comments like "We've already discussed this with no consensus to change" and "We've just discussed this". But this is by itself fairly useless as an explanation for the problems with the change, what we actually need is the older discussion.

The older discussion is I guess the discussion Grands Prix Results one which is at this time right above that comment[24]. So all that comment actual does is direct us through a very roundabout way to see the discussion which is now right above that comment!

In other words, it's fairly useless for any other editor and I see no purpose to keep it on the article talk page. I said "being generous" earlier since it wasn't even actually a warning. Instead it was asking some other unnamed party to warn the editor. If I had to guess, Island92 is an inexperienced editor and incorrectly thought and maybe still thinks there are mods responsible for monitoring behaviour and warnings editors which of course isn't how the English wikipedia works. So in some ways the comment was even more pointless.

Yes it's very common that editors have such confusion and misplace warnings, and a lot of the time we just let it be. But it's also very common we collapse, in-place archive, immediately archive to a subpage or simply remove such comments. In this particular case, it seems that the comment was causing offence, maybe even distress to the editor concerned. That being the case, there seems to be even more reason to just remove the comment rather than keeping it up.

While this was not an editor's talk page, the same principle actually applies. In so much as it was intended as a warning to a specific editor, we can assume that editor has already read the warning otherwise they wouldn't be removing it. So even more reason why it was simpler just to let the removal stand.

Yes the stated reason for removal might have been flawed, but it was simple to annotate the edit summary or alternative for some editor seeing the edit war to take over the removal and give a better explanation for why they were removing it like I did. They can approach the editors concerned and explain the situation as I did.

As an alternative, perhaps Wiki wikied would have been fine with the comment being archived to a subpage. Although frankly, removing pointless comments on talk pages which haven't yet been archived rather than archiving them, even after a long time isn't uncommon either.

Let's also consider the alterntive which is that someone needs to ask Island92 to change their comment, and Island92 need to go an modify a comment which as I now realise was over a month old and which did not belong on the that talk page anyway, and where the actual issue seems to be dead. (At least so far Wiki wikied hasn't returning to trying to change to their preferred version of the table.)

So I guess what I'm reminding editors is always consider taking a step back in disputes like this and rather than looking at issues of simple black and white, 'you removed the comment for a unjustified reason so I'll revert you' and when you keep on insisting on removal, the bring you to ANI to get you blocked probably also resulting in a bunch of editors needing to look into the dispute. While all these actions might be technically justified, I think we (and again definitely including myself in that) should never forget to look at the wider picture and ask ourselves, is there actually some way I can resolve that without all this? And also, even if an editor might not have left a good explanation in wikipedia terms, for their change but is there actually a good reason for their change nevertheless? (I.E. Remember to always consider the change rather than just the explanation.)

Nil Einne (talk) 09:45, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

• Nil Einne's wise advice both here and at at User talk:Wiki wikied appear to have been ignored by the user. They haven't edited recently. Instead of a WP:PARBLOCK from Talk:2024 Formula One World Championship, perhaps I could create an interesting but wildly inaccurate note about how the "singular they" entered the English language when the Vikings established an Australian Football League expansion team in Northeast England on their talkpage? Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 10:56, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

IP editor adds unsourced content to JP writing system articles

49.32.235.247 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), 2409:4040:D1D:53D9:0:0:C9CB:2315 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 2409:4040:6E9A:45A8:0:0:C94B:6401 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) have repeatedly added unsourced content to the Kana and Small Kana Extension articles: [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] are just a few of the edits those IPs have done. You can see the history of the articles for more examples. Communicating with this person is impossible because they never use talk pages. I got the two articles protected at RfPP and this user just waited the protection out and kept doing the same edits. Nickps (talk) 10:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

(Comment) All of the edits seems to have been reverted. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The editor is still active. Nickps (talk) 11:27, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

See also [33] [34] [35]. Nickps (talk) 12:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I've now semiprotected Kana, Small Kana Extension and Katakana for two months each. If you see the problem spreading to more articles consider reporting at WP:AIV. EdJohnston (talk) 18:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

AFD behaviour

Mooresklm2016 is behaving problematically around an AFD discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Meritt North. First they tried to repeatedly strip the AFD template from the article; even after I posted to their user talk page to advise them that they aren't allowed to do that, and have to leave the template on the page until the discussion has run its course, they simply reverted my post back off their talk page and continued to revert war over the template, forcing me to temporarily sprot the page. Now they're just trying to WP:BLUDGEON the AFD itself with long, long screeds of text and lists of primary sourcing — with this, in which they tried to give each individual paragraph in their screed the full == == headline treatment to the point that I had to do an WP:AWB edit on it to strip that because the page had so many headlines in it, being the most egregious example.

But since I was the initiator of the discussion, I'm obviously not the appropriate person to decide if any consequences are warranted since I'm directly "involved". Could somebody look into this and determine if any warnings or other repercussions are needed? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 15:48, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I collapsed the most prominent TL;DR screed on the AfD debate shortly before giving my Delete argument. A request to remove the prot at RFPP/D by Mooresklm2016 got declined by Favonian, citing the AfD template removals. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 17:16, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I have p-blocked them from the AfD and article to allow consensus to be reached. Should the article be retained, block adjustment can be handled by a reviewing admin. Star Mississippi 13:52, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

After responding productively editor has now decided I'm the problem. If someone who isn't Involved would like to remind them again of NPA, that might be helpful. Star Mississippi 16:20, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

And the IDHT is very strong with this one, to the point I'm thinking high conflict-of-interest. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 18:05, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

They've basically admitted to being the subject of the article on its talk page ("my biography"). Schazjmd (talk) 18:08, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Could just be that they're very possessive of the article and see it as belonging to them. – Primium (talk) 18:15, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Um yeah, I don't think so. The full quote: :Tantor Media (one of the top audiobook production companies in existence and they only take on the best of the best. They have my biography, demo, and everything published Schazjmd (talk) 18:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It's definitely PAID if not an autobiography, I misfiled Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mooresklm2016 but I also think there's some hijinks going on with Randy Brooks (gospel musician) which was what led me to UPE. Star Mississippi 18:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

UPE

When trying to find a version of Randy Brooks to revert back to without infringing text, I found this which is indicative of an assignment. I'm Involved so won't take action on the account, but suggest it be looked at a little harder for UPE. Star Mississippi 18:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

and the intersection with User:Mooresklm2016/sandbox/billtest is clear. For any reviewing admin, recommend extending block rather than lifting. Star Mississippi 18:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Bill Brooks (voice actor) is another case. Orange sticker (talk) 08:52, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

without a doubt, I think we're looking at a UPE farm besides this being an autobiography. Added to SPI Star Mississippi 12:52, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

clear use of multiple accounts by user:Quavvalos

user:Quavvalos recently made a user page with the text saying "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 4 ACCOUNTS IN ONE DAY Your anti evasione system is ridiculous!!!🤣🤣🤣". this doesn't get any more obvious. Gaismagorm (talk) 21:18, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

also check out user:Quovalos, which due to the similar name and user:Quavvalos responding to a teahouse comment made by quovalos about block evasion might be an account under the same person. Gaismagorm (talk) 21:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

and user:Quaavalos who is doing the same Gaismagorm (talk) 21:22, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

okay Quaavalos and quovalos have been blocked but not quavvalos Gaismagorm (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

okay Quavvalos has now been blocked. so situation has been solved. Gaismagorm (talk) 21:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/14 novembre. This troll has been disrupting the Teahouse and the help desk all day. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 21:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

okay, well good luck to y'all with dealing with them Gaismagorm (talk) 21:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh I also mentioned them on the sockuppet investigation, just letting ya know Gaismagorm (talk) 21:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

@Just Step Sideways, what should be done with the amount of troll sections created in the Teahouse? Someone even went ahead and requested protection. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:07, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd assume you'd just delete them as vandalism. Do not ever respond or attempt to engage in discussion once it's clear it's a sock of this guy. Air on White (talk) 01:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll try to tell responders to watch out for new accounts with Italian usernames in the meantime... Especially if they are from itwiki. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:21, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It's generally good practise to just revert off any threads which are clearly being created to disrupt help fora with no further comment. Eventually they get bored/annoyed and back off (for a time). —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 18:32, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Months of WP:HOUNDING by User:Let'srun

Since December 2023, User:Let'srun has been consistently WP:HOUNDING me by following me around and opposing me at various different places, including some extremely obvious examples coupled with some personal attacks, incivility, and general disruption towards football articles in the areas I work. I have been extremely patient in dealing with this user, trying to minimise contact, etc., but he has not stopped, and as such I feel I have no choice but to send this to ANI. Below, I have listed extensive instances of hounding and harassment directed towards me by this user. To make things a little easier to read in the "Complete – chronological" section, I have left some more minor evidences in small font, some moderate evidences in normal font, whereas more obvious examples are in bold font. I have also copied some evidences from the section to a "Major evidences" section.

Background

To start, I found it peculiar that his first contributions were attempts to mass delete articles; see [36]. First interaction seems to be me commenting at an AFD of his (August 2023): [37] - nothing unusual. September 2023: I assisted in saving an article he nom'ed for deletion: [38] Started nominating football stuff in October with [39]. Saved another Dec. 6: [40]. Saved an article he nom'ed for deletion on Dec. 11: [41].

Complete – chronological

Note that much of this comes from emails with other users from the past (who similarly believed the behaviour was disruptive); as such, a few of the links may be out of date, but can still be found by looking through contributions lists. Right after (two minutes) he responds at the Boston College-Virginia Tech AFD (mentioned in above section), disagreeing with my provided sources for GNG ([42]), he bizarrely draftifies an AFC submission I accepted for having "too few sources" ([43]) when it had three and significant coverage. December 16: he votes "redirect" at an article I substantially expanded; ultimately kept: [44]. Five minutes later: does the same at a different discussion involving me that I voted keep (eventually kept): [45]. December 18: I make a comment at one his AFDs (Darroll DeLaPorte), could be considered inclusion-leaning: [46]. Excluding two minutes later, his very next actions ([47]) are to tag two of my creations in two minutes, both Italians for the 1926 Hartford Blues whom I created in consecutive months, for missing significant coverage, one of whom (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rocky_Segretta&diff=prev&oldid=1190596820) that was incorrect. Five minutes after replying to me at the DeLaPorte discussion ([48]), he nominates an article created by me for deletion, which was kept ([49]). I save another article he nom'ed for deletion December 21: [50]. Seven minutes after it is kept, he mass tags for significant coverage 28 articles ([51]). December 21: creates a merger article from my work without attribution ([52]). (Not that I really care that much about it, but I've seen others get upset about it before.) Mass sigcov tags 23 articles on December 22, then eight more on Dec. 24 (not that its necessarily wrong, but he has access to sources and knows how to find them, so it'd be just about as easy for him to do that). On December 26, I reverted "refimprove" tags on List of current CFL players added by Andrevan; one day later, tags are interestingly re-introduced by Let'srun; reverts by me with explanation are repeatedly either reverted by him with no explanation or explanations that didn't make sense: [53]. Something similar happened with the XFL and USFL lists; but he later brought them to AFD and they were deleted, so I can't view the history. January 1, 2024, very oddly comes across Art Whizin, an article kept at AFD over a week earlier, where I had commented, and adds maintenance tags: [54]. January 2, there was discussion over whether to have a notability tag on an article just kept at AFD; I make a comment and include a source and Let'srun somehow finds my comment and finds a reason to discount it: [55]. Eight minutes after I rebut his argument there ([56]), he ludicrously TAGBOMBs - including for notability - (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Let%27srun&target=Let%27srun&dir=prev&offset=20231227013618&limit=500) several NFL players that he could have easily found GNG-coverage for. Each reverted soon by two different editors (incl. myself); see [57] [58] [59] and [60]. Shortly after, nominates a 30 game NFL player for deletion; article kept after my efforts: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Vivian_Hultman. A little bit later, oddly adds and removes categories to a 1895 Tufts football article ([61]); not created by me but I did other Tufts articles; odd. Later that day, votes against me at an AFD; noting that he "never agree[s] with the constant [other stuff exists] arguments by BF" ([62]). After noting his disagreement with a comment I made at the 30-game NFL player AFD, his next two actions are to nominate for deletion to articles created by me - both of which I created in a two-day span ([63]). I do not see how he could have found those besides looking at my userpage. 15:24 January 4: votes "redirect" at a AFD I was involved in: [64]. Soon after, I revert some of the ridiculous notability taggings mentioned earlier ([65]) - his first actions after that, seven more silly notability taggings (six reverted): [66]. Then I added a sigcov source to Bill Gutterson, Ellery White already had one (two of the articles tagged by him) - he continually re-adds the tags, then inserts some more maintenance tags, on account of the non-existent requirement that "enough sources to satisfy GNG need to be IN the article". Ultimately reverted (notability tags are not allowed to be re-added...). When I add sources to another one - Shorty Barr - (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/BeanieFan11&target=BeanieFan11&dir=prev&offset=20240101220745&limit=500) - his first edit, aside from one in his userspace, is another ludicrous notability tagging, which he easily could have found sources to demonstrate GNG for (Jim MacMurdo). January 11: nominates two season articles created by me for deletion (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Let%27srun&target=Let%27srun&dir=prev&offset=20231227013618&limit=500), starting a series of SIX consecutive unrelated nominations for deletion of season articles created by me (other non-football ones mixed in between - [67]). Early Jan. 12, another AFD of an article by me: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1897 South Dakota State Jackrabbits football team. Two more on Jan. 16 (1892 Biddle/Livingstone). The sixth (1901 Wilmington Conf. Acad.) on Jan. 19. Here's where it gets interesting: I comment "This is at least the ninth time you've nominated for deletion an article written by me in a month. Its starting to feel excessive." He leaves me a message ([68]) asking me to "withdraw my personal attack". I said it felt like a totally reasonable comment, especially since it was six straight and he was averaging one per three days of mine. Jan. 20, PRODs notable 1916 Tusculum Pioneers football team ([69]) - interesting how he found it, since he mainly focused on 1870s-1900s seasons, and it was related to an article I wrote (Tusculum Pioneers football, 1901–1910). Later on Jan. 20, tags for notability four clearly notable articles (Frank Robinson, Pete Swanson, Marshall Edwards, Joe Rowe) in FOUR MINUTES which were all created directly after each other by me as some of my earliest work ([70]). He had said, in the talk page discussion, that he was not targeting my articles. That seems pretty clearly targeting. Also worth noting - the MINUTE after I reverted one of the taggings for being clearly notable ([71]) - he has two more plainly ridiculous notability taggings for obviously notable NFL players ([72] - Ty Coon / Buster Mitchell). Five minutes after I revert the notability tag for Mitchell ([73]), he slaps on a bunch of other maintenance tags and makes me do the work, even when I linked sources in my revert edit summary ([74]). Jan. 22: opposes my good faith efforts to draftify some of the AFD nominations so I could work on them later - he repeatedly opposes them - I don't get why one would do so (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/1881_Georgetown_football_team and https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/1892_Western_Maryland_Green_Terror_football_team&diff=prev&oldid=1198089209). Right after, replies on my talk page (in response to me saying it was not a personal attack to point out his AFD statistics): "It comes with the inherent accusation that I am targeting your articles for deletion, which I am not." I respond by asking how he found the four (Swanson et al.) and the Tusculum season, he responds by avoiding the Swanson question, and saying "Using categories created for the respective teams, and the early college football seasons...For the last time, I ask you to strike that comment." Do you know what he does next? Tags for notability not one, not two, not three, but SEVEN articles relating to my work for notability (South Dakota, Columbian, Lewisburg - [75]). I question how he found them in rapid succession, and ask "And even if that's all random, I still ask: what about Edwards, Swanson, Robinson and Rowe". His response completely avoids the question ([76]): "I'm confused, were you formally MisterCake? That is who created the Lewisburg articles I tagged." (One season after the 1883 Lewisburg football team – 1887 Bucknell football team – an article I created.) I point that out, and again ask about Swanson; he replies "I already answered that above. Categories...." I point out that several of them had absolutely ZERO categories in common, ask again, and he gives the confusing non-answer "Because there are ways to switch queries beyond who created the article?" WHICH he follows by voting "delete" at an AFD I voted keep ([77]) and three minutes later doing similar for another AFD ([78]). I leave two comments: the first "I'm finding your response difficult to understand; but the only place these articles (Swanson, Edwards) are connected are at my userpage, where they are listed next to each other. There are no "categories" that connect them; considering the thousands of NFL stubs, how could your "queries" come across only mine?" and "How about this: why don't you tell me, exactly, how you came across these articles (Swanson, Edwards, Robinson, Rowe), and we can end this discussion?" He avoids answering for a bit, adds another pathetic-and-now-reverted notability tag to a clearly notable NFL player ([79]) and finally responds with a non-answer to the first one (ignoring the second - [80]) - "They don't. You just picked 4 articles that I have tagged which were created by you through searching multiple categories of NFL teams (and you have hundreds of articles). I don't have any issue with the vast majority of your articles, just because I maybe disagree with 1-2% of your creations (if that) does not mean I am single-handedly targeting them." Five minutes later, another AFD comment in opposition to me ([81]). I respond "You're avoiding the question; tell me exactly how you found those four completely unrelated articles in a span of four minutes ... answer the question: tell me, exactly, how you came across Swanson, Edwards, Robinson and Rowe in four minutes." He says that "I'll repeat myself: searching multiple categories of NFL teams." I tell him how absurd and unlikely that is; I am certain he just looked from the start of my userpage creations list to target: "OK - so in four minutes, you randomly searched Category:Brooklyn Dodgers (NFL) players, completely randomly came across, out of over 200 others, Marshall Edwards which I happened to create, found it to tag for notability; one minute later, randomly searched Category:Los Angeles Rams players, containing over 1,000, and randomly choose to tag for notability Pete Swanson, the article I created right after Edwards; then one minute later randomly searched Category:St. Louis Rams players, a category of over 800, randomly found Joe Rowe, which I coincidentally created right after Swanson; and then one minute later, searched Category:Denver Broncos players, a category of ~1,600, and randomly found to tag for notability Frank Robinson, whom I also coincidentally happened to create right around the time of Rowe? If so, that is the most amazing coincidence I have heard of in my life". Never responded. Soon after, I make a comment referencing him ([82]) and then within minutes, he nominates a category created by me for deletion ([83]). At the 1881 Georgetown discussion (mentioned above, where he opposed my draftification efforts), he repeatedly stated that I was advocating to keep it when I just stated to draftify so I could create a merger target - I straightforwardly tell him that I am not advocating to keep it - he replies with a massive failure of WP:AGF, straight out calling me a liar with ill intent ([84]): "You actually are advocating to keep it, you are just trying to pretend that you aren't by first creating a draft and once the smoke has cleared putting it back in mainspace." (interesting how he considers pointing out basic facts - i.e. that he nominated nine of my articles for deletion in a month - as personal attacks, whereas this...isn't?) Then, to prove him wrong, I simply start the merger target in mainspace (Georgetown football, 1874-1889) - now, in the past when others have done similar Let'srun has been supportive of this, even doing one himself on the Delaware State Hornets (which, actually, was a direct copy of my work without attribution) - however, within minutes of me finishing the Georgetown article, he starts by removing relevant content twice and then nominating it for deletion; the discussion has an overwhelming consensus to keep. (Also, interesting that, when I pointed out that he had done the same for arguably less notable groupings in DelState, he removed it from his userpage). More silly notability taggings on Jan. 29, this time on NBA players, which have been reverted (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Let%27srun&target=Let%27srun&offset=&limit=500 - Noble Jorgensen, Harry Zeller, some others) User:Cbl62 had sent him a message about "over-personalizing" at AFD, probably referring to the Georgetown discussion - on Jan. 31 Let'srun states that "Looking to the future, I will work to be better". His next edits are to nominate for deletion an article where he had a dispute with me (List of CFL players, which was a clear keep). He also has repeatedly nominatied for deletion college football categories, knowing that I've opposed them before as its part of the standard categorisation scheme; User:Jweiss11 noted at one ([85]) "Let'srun, these nominations are, frankly, a waste of time." Feb. 1: as only AFD vote of the hour, votes at a discussion I was involved in. Feb 5: more silly notability taggings for NBA players Feb 6: No vote for 17 days after the start of the this AFD - within three days of me voting, opposition from Let'srun (consensus was in favour of my argument). Feb 6: more opposition to me at AFD (consensus was in favour of my argument) Feb. 7: finds another discussion I was involved at as the only edit in a 20-hour span, making sure to note what he considered problems in my comment Feb. 9: two minutes before replying to my rebuttal at the second Feb. 6 AFD, critiques my comment at an AFD with SNOW keep consensus Feb. 11: finds another of my AFD comments to critique - article kept Feb. 11: yet again AFDs one of my works Feb. 14: his first comment after refusing to answer a polite request on how many categories he planned on nominating for deletion, somehow finds the RM for USFL Draft and opposes me. Feb. 16: votes rapidly in succession, without any other AFD contributions at two completely different AFDs I was involved in, supporting me weakly at Lubomir Pistek while opposing me at Radoslav Holubek (AFDs). I ask him "May I ask, how did you find both this and [Pistek], your only two votes in the past two days, in rapid succession, considering they both happen to be discussions in which I am involved and seem to be part of an ongoing trend at AFD of you either voting against me or making sure to critique my comments when you do ultimately agree with me?" Doesn't respond there, but makes sure to start voting at other discussions within three minutes, and also responds to another polite college football talk request regarding his CFD noms by saying Why are you singling me out? I immediately responded regarding how it seemed he was actually singling me out while later pinging him asking on the topic; he never responded. Feb. 20: Only vote in a few days, "delete" at an AFD I found sources for. Feb. 21: first edits after a polite request regarding how many CFD nominations he intended on making - to which he never responded - he mass nominates more categories for deletion. Feb. 21: I had opened a close review for the NFL Draft discussion on Feb. 16 but stopped commenting afterwards; after a ping, I returned with one edit to the page on February 21. Very shortly afterwards, Let'srun opposed my close review with some bizarre comments about "forum shopping" that have since been criticised by a number of editors. Feb. 24: as his first AFD comments in awhile, Let'srun votes against me rapidly in short succession both here and here without any other AFD comments. I politely asked he found the discussion with a ping - he immediately voted at another AFD while refusing to answer my question. I asked again with another ping; he again refused to answer how he found the discussion. More following me around later that day, having never responded to any of my repeated questions about how he came across to oppose me at the discussions he did. By this point, I was already extremely close to sending Let'srun here, but decided to be patient and give another chance, and he left me alone for a time. That is, until I rescued the New Britain Mules, an article he sent to AFD, in mid-April. The day after I made an expansion that convinced a "delete" !voter to switch to "keep", Let'srun critiqued one of my comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Max Wirth (cyclist). May 2: he opposes me again at an AFD I voted keep, and the article was kept: [86]. I help rescue another article he nom'ed for deletion on May 2: [87]. Two days later: he re-nominates for deletion an article I had helped get kept just two months prior. Right after, he nominates for deletion another page created by me: [88]. May 6: the same day I provide sources to rescue Rome Chambers from AFD, Let'srun adds a maintenance tag to the article, and soon after that, !votes at two AFDs involving me in six minutes ([89] [90]). May 7: comments at two more AFDs in a row involving me (I had de-PRODed them): [91] / [92]. May 10: votes delete at an AFD which I suggested looking for sources. May 11: votes, including twice against me, at three AFDs involving me in a row: [93] / [94] / [95]. May 12: closed an AFD for an article I helped rescue: [96] (hadn't seen him close AFDs before). Later on May 12: minutes after responding to me at an AFD (where he refused to answer a query on how he found the article, given that it was related to me from months back), he !votes at two more AFDs involving me in a row ([97] / [98]) before returning to the discussion. May 17: critiques one of my comments at another AFD and does the same with another AFD. More following me around on May 19, May 21 (May 21 again, opposing me at another AFD).

Major evidences (copied from complete history)

Right after (two minutes) he responds at the Boston College-Virginia Tech AFD (mentioned in above section), disagreeing with my provided sources for GNG ([99]), he bizarrely draftifies an AFC submission I accepted for having "too few sources" ([100]) when it had three and significant coverage. On December 26, I reverted "refimprove" tags on List of current CFL players added by Andrevan; one day later, tags are interestingly re-introduced by Let'srun; reverts by me with explanation are repeatedly either reverted by him with no explanation or explanations that didn't make sense: [101]. Something similar happened with the XFL and USFL lists; but he later brought them to AFD and they were deleted, so I can't view the history. January 11: nominates two season articles created by me for deletion ([102]), starting a series of SIX consecutive unrelated nominations for deletion of season articles created by me (other non-football ones mixed in between - [103]). The sixth (1901 Wilmington Conf. Acad.) on Jan. 19. Here's where it gets interesting: I comment "This is at least the ninth time you've nominated for deletion an article written by me in a month. Its starting to feel excessive." He leaves me a message ([104]) asking me to "withdraw my personal attack". I said it felt like a totally reasonable comment, especially since it was six straight and he was averaging one per three days of mine. Later on Jan. 20, tags for notability four clearly notable articles (Frank Robinson, Pete Swanson, Marshall Edwards, Joe Rowe) in FOUR MINUTES which were all created directly after each other by me as some of my earliest work ([105]). He had said, in the talk page discussion, that he was not targeting my articles. That seems pretty clearly targeting. Also worth noting - the MINUTE after I reverted one of the taggings for being clearly notable ([106]) - he has two more plainly ridiculous notability taggings for obviously notable NFL players ([107] - Ty Coon / Buster Mitchell). Five minutes after I revert the notability tag for Mitchell ([108]), he slaps on a bunch of other maintenance tags. Right after, replies on my talk page (in response to me saying it was not a personal attack to point out his AFD statistics): "It comes with the inherent accusation that I am targeting your articles for deletion, which I am not." I respond by asking how he found the four (Swanson et al.) and a college season, he responds by avoiding the Swanson question, and saying "Using categories created for the respective teams, and the early college football seasons...For the last time, I ask you to strike that comment." Do you know what he does next? Tags for notability not one, not two, not three, but SEVEN articles relating to my work for notability (South Dakota, Columbian, Lewisburg - [109]). I question how he found them in rapid succession, and ask "And even if that's all random, I still ask: what about Edwards, Swanson, Robinson and Rowe". His response completely avoids the question ([110]): "I'm confused, were you formally MisterCake? That is who created the Lewisburg articles I tagged." (One season after the 1883 Lewisburg football team – 1887 Bucknell football team – an article I created.) I point that out, and again ask about Swanson; he replies "I already answered that above. Categories...." I point out that several of them had absolutely ZERO categories in common, ask again, and he gives the confusing non-answer "Because there are ways to switch queries beyond who created the article?" WHICH he follows by voting "delete" at an AFD I voted keep ([111]) and three minutes later doing similar for another AFD ([112]). I leave two comments: the first "I'm finding your response difficult to understand; but the only place these articles (Swanson, Edwards) are connected are at my userpage, where they are listed next to each other. There are no "categories" that connect them; considering the thousands of NFL stubs, how could your "queries" come across only mine?" and "How about this: why don't you tell me, exactly, how you came across these articles (Swanson, Edwards, Robinson, Rowe), and we can end this discussion?" He avoids answering for a bit, adds another pathetic-and-now-reverted notability tag to a clearly notable NFL player ([113]) and finally responds with a non-answer to the first one (ignoring the second - [114]) - "They don't. You just picked 4 articles that I have tagged which were created by you through searching multiple categories of NFL teams (and you have hundreds of articles). I don't have any issue with the vast majority of your articles, just because I maybe disagree with 1-2% of your creations (if that) does not mean I am single-handedly targeting them." Five minutes later, another AFD comment in opposition to me ([115]). I respond "You're avoiding the question; tell me exactly how you found those four completely unrelated articles in a span of four minutes." He says that "I'll repeat myself: searching multiple categories of NFL teams." I tell him how absurd and unlikely that is; I am certain he just looked from the start of my userpage creations list to target: "OK - so in four minutes, you randomly searched Category:Brooklyn Dodgers (NFL) players, completely randomly came across, out of over 200 others, Marshall Edwards which I happened to create, found it to tag for notability; one minute later, randomly searched Category:Los Angeles Rams players, containing over 1,000, and randomly choose to tag for notability Pete Swanson, the article I created right after Edwards; then one minute later randomly searched Category:St. Louis Rams players, a category of over 800, randomly found Joe Rowe, which I coincidentally created right after Swanson; and then one minute later, searched Category:Denver Broncos players, a category of ~1,600, and randomly found to tag for notability Frank Robinson, whom I also coincidentally happened to create right around the time of Rowe? If so, that is the most amazing coincidence I have heard of in my life". Never responded. At the 1881 Georgetown discussion (mentioned above, where he opposed my draftification efforts), he repeatedly stated that I was advocating to keep it when I just stated to draftify so I could create a merger target - I straightforwardly tell him that I am not advocating to keep it - he replies with a massive failure of WP:AGF, straight out calling me a liar with ill intent ([116]): "You actually are advocating to keep it, you are just trying to pretend that you aren't by first creating a draft and once the smoke has cleared putting it back in mainspace." Then, to prove him wrong, I simply start the merger target in mainspace (Georgetown football, 1874-1889) - now, in the past when others have done similar Let'srun has been supportive of this, even doing one himself on the Delaware State Hornets - however, within minutes of me finishing the Georgetown article, he starts by removing relevant content twice and then nominating it for deletion; the discussion has an overwhelming consensus to keep. User:Cbl62 had sent him a message about "over-personalizing" at AFD, probably referring to the Georgetown discussion - on Jan. 31 Let'srun states that "Looking to the future, I will work to be better". His next edits are to nominate for deletion an article where he had a dispute with me (List of CFL players, which was a clear keep). Feb. 16: votes rapidly in succession, without any other AFD contributions at two completely different AFDs I was involved in, supporting me weakly at Lubomir Pistek while opposing me at Radoslav Holubek (AFDs). I ask him "May I ask, how did you find both this and [Pistek], your only two votes in the past two days, in rapid succession, considering they both happen to be discussions in which I am involved and seem to be part of an ongoing trend at AFD of you either voting against me or making sure to critique my comments when you do ultimately agree with me?" Doesn't respond there, but then responds to a polite college football talk request regarding his CFD noms by saying Why are you singling me out? I immediately responded regarding how it seemed he was actually singling me out while later pinging him asking on the topic; he never responded. May 4: he re-nominates for deletion an article I had helped get kept just two months prior. Right after, he nominates for deletion another page created by me: [117]. May 11: votes, including twice against me, at three AFDs involving me in a row: [118] / [119] / [120].

BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:03, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

This is quite a lot to respond to here, so let me try my best here. I have nothing personal against any user here, including BeanieFan11. Rather, if I disagree with any user or believe additional context is needed somewhere, I look to say it and the reasons as for such. Perhaps I could be better about giving supporting evidence at times, and if others consider my behaviour to be disruptive, I am open to hearing why they think so. Let me start with the first bullet point. I edited under a IP before creating an account (which I noted when I was taken to ANI last year, apologies for not finding that post but I will continue to look for it). The first interaction I had with Beanie (or at least that I can find) actually was in July of 2023 when they commented (or critiqued, however you wish to view it) on my AfD for Eugene Petramale, which closed as delete.[[121]]. I have also done some closing of AfD's going back to last year, see this as an example of a AfD not involving BeanieFan11. [[122]]. And for the sake of transparency, one in which BeanieFan11 voted in [[123]] which I nominated and then closed myself as I was persuaded by the evidence provided.

Over 80% of my votes at AfD have closed as 'matches' and the vast majority of my nominations and votes (over 1200) are on articles which were not significantly edited or created by BeanieFan11. When nominating articles, including by BeanieFan11, I have looked to be open to ATDs, which is seen in my nomination statements. I also admit that some of my nominations were later shown to have suitable sources deserving that article to be kept and when that happens I look to refine my BEFORE. I am not sure about the CfD's but I would guess it is a similar match percentage, and other voters who commonly are at CfD have agreed with my nominations in that area, like at [[124]][[125]][[126]] and I have only disagreed with those users in that area that a WikiProject is the best venue for widespread policy to be discussed.

I don't label myself as an inclusionist or deletionist. I look at the available sourcing and follow the guidelines. I don't always agree with other voters but I respect their intentions and believe in WP:GOODFAITH.

Looking at the evidence provided here, I apologise for the conduct at the 1881 Georgetown discussion which was out of line and had unacceptable language, along with the lack of attribution on that combined season article (I wish you had brought that in particular to my attention earlier). I have not intended to hound anyone (honestly it is the first time I've ever seen that cited so I am only reading it now for the first time) and note that we edit in some of the same areas frequently due to common interests. I look at the deletion sorting for sportspeople and sports frequently and often vote in those discussions, several of which BeanieFan has already commented in or does so after myself. I have previously tagged articles sometimes in bulk after having added them to my watchlist but have stopped that practice.

If there is something I didn't cover, please let me know. Let'srun (talk) 23:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

• I find the evidence completely unpersuasive. The last three diffs (Special:Permalink/1224980664, Special:Permalink/1225004175, and Special:Permalink/1224641854) are ordinary AFD participation in the topic area of sports, not WP:HOUNDING. Some of the earlier diffs are less civil and more personal, but are stale. If there is a short (WP:THREE) argument that a TBAN or IBAN is necessary, make it; a collection of ordinary interactions is not that. Walsh90210 (talk) 00:52, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
  • I still don't see a case for action now. Too many of the diffs (in the "shorter" version) are complaining about AFDs such as Special:Permalink/1195055730 (which I think is the "South Dakota" reference mentioned). An insistence on keeping stand-alone articles like that, at all costs, is largely what got Lugnuts banned. The diffs presented from the past 3 months are still completely innocuous; if "an editor occasionally disagrees with me at AFD" is causing BeanieFan distress, BeanieFan is the editor who needs to disengage from the project. I'm not going to say there was definitely no "hounding" in December/January, but it has stopped and there is no cause for administrative action now. This is a collaborative project and one cannot demand to be the only editor on sports articles. Walsh90210 (talk) 04:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
• I agree with Walsh90210. This looks a lot more like common areas of interest where the two editors disagree often. Describing this diff as "he opposes me again at an AFD I voted keep, and the article was kept" as an example of hounding is particularly illustrative. Let'srun did not oppose Beaniefan11, they supported the deletion of the article based on valid policy arguments that other editors also provided. Beaniefan11 weakly supported keeping the article. Describing the article as being "kept" (and all that seeks to imply about Let'srun's motivations) is misleading, the deletion nomination was closed as "no consensus". BoldGnome (talk) 07:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The editor interaction tool tells the same story: [127] The more I look at these interactions, the more innocent they become, and the more concerning this report becomes. It's just innocent content dispute after innocent content dispute after innocent content dispute. Most of the time Let'srun and Beaniefan don't even interact in any way. Assuming good faith regarding the filing of this report, I'd be more concerned about the "users of the past" fuelling these concerns via email. BoldGnome (talk) 12:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• I haven't been impressed with Let'srun's various AfD nominations. His pre-AFD research is non-existent which is how he can nominate and tag 10+ articles per day. When given more sources for various nominated articles, he usually disqualifies the new sources or just stops replying. It turns the nomination process into a game that frustrates and annoys serious editors and makes clashes with people like Beanie inevitable. I think Let'srun's nominations privileges should be limited or restricted and it's clear that at some points in time he was likely targeting Beanie.KatoKungLee (talk) 18:08, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  While I have already explained my tagging above (no worries if you missed it), and have no plans to continue tagging in that manner again due to its lack of effectiveness, I haven't nominated "10+ articles per day" to AfD once this year and don't plan on doing so going forward - [[128]]. I know you have had issues with my nominations before and took action to address them at that time [[129]]. I will look to do so again here if at all possible. I look to be respectful in discussing the sources provided in any discussion that I take part in and do not intend to play any type of game here. Let'srun (talk) 18:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• My thoughts here's largely align with KatoKungLee's. In recent months, Let'srun has nominated a large number of categories for merging, many related to the topic of college football. He's continued to nominate lesser-populated categories with the same rationale as other nominations that have failed, again and again in a one-off manner, disregarding the value of parallelism in the category tree and failing to appreciate that many of these smaller categories relate to topics that are under active development. And he's not been responsive to rapid growth of such categories during the course of time that his nominations are open. What's most troubling is that Let'srun has been unwilling to engage meaningfully and collaborate with editors focused on college football and find a more pragmatic and stable approach to managing categories; see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive 26#Categories for deletion. His behaviour is indeed frustrating and annoying and I've described it in the past as time-wasting and obstructive. I've considered opening up an ANI notice myself about this. I don't think I can dig through everything that BeanieFan11 has assembled here, but the second AFD of Asim Munir (cricketer) in two months is not good. I think some sort of formal admonishment with a temporary of limiting of XfD privileges is in order here. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
• If some editors just can't see the evidence to support claims of egregious personal hounding and instead need to pivot to accusations of broad "AfD disruption", maybe comments of the latter flavor can go in a separate section. This would have the additional convenience of allowing us to examine AfD naughtiness in all its forms and to voice opinions like "a group of disaffected editors constantly disguising ILIKEIT arguments and deprecated guidelines as IAR !votes is not good" or "asserting AfD noms perform terrible BEFORE searches because they don't exhaustively search every non-English offline newspaper that could possibly have covered the subject, when per our guidelines there is explicitly no expectation any coverage exists for this subject, is not good". JoelleJay (talk) 21:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
• @Walsh90210, BoldGnome, KatoKungLee, Jweiss11, and JoelleJay: I realise I have probably formatted this poorly resulting in a difficult-to-read wall of text. As such, I re-organised the report and copied the more major and questionable actions to a new section. I don't think actions such as tagging for notability four completely unrelated football articles created by me in that order in a four-minute span, or then tagging seven articles in a row relating to me for notability just when the prior action had been questioned, or voting "delete" at AFDs I had voted "keep" minutes after each response to me at another discussion, or nominating nine football articles written by me for deletion in a month, with no others in between for the final 6/9, are "ordinary interactions". BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:17, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
• Comment I haven't examined all of BeanieFan11's examples but with previous disputes about hounding, it's important to look at the totality of diffs, not just one or two isolated incidents. As a regular closer of AFDs, it's not uncommon to find two editors who repeatedly butt heads over AFDs in a particular subject area. And it's also not rare for editors to go on a deletion binge of overnominating articles they find, flooding the daily log with many nominations of a similar kind which is frustrating to our regular AFD participants who want to handle each article discussion individually and carefully. Editors going on a nomination spree is a consistent problem we see periodically at AFDLand. I'm not making any judgment here as I've stated I haven't examined all of the diffs but this scenario seems very familiar to those editors who spend time reviewing AFD discussions. I hope this dispute can be resolved so as to retain both editors as they generally do good work. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Editing with a POV

I suspect @Yasarhossain07 of editing with a POV. I went through the user's edits from this year (largely excluding talk page edits), listing all 40 below for completeness. I believe there is a clear, overt bias and lack of neutrality in their edits. Prior to all of these edits, the user already had a history of personal attacks, during the discussion of which, others were already suspicious of Yasarhossain07 pushing a POV. If this is too much information, please let me know and I can curate this list.

1. Removed sourced content from Volga Tatars about the reduction of Tatar language studies in Russian public school, saying, "The article cited was misquoted" and that the content was not supported by the source. This is incorrect. It is supported by the source. In large, header-sized font: [130]
2. Added unsourced material about living people in Rauf & Faik, changing the origin of the duo from Azerbaijan to Russia, on the basis that their lyrics are in Russian and therefore they cannot be Azerbaijani: [131]
3. Removed content from a biography of a living person, Anna Asti, insisting the person is only Russian, per the fact that she has a Russian last name and ignoring that she was born in Ukrainian SSR: [132]
4. Inexplicably removed {{Citation needed}} from Paratrooper content about Soviet Airborne Forces: [133]
5. Added unsourced material to a biography of a living person, Aras Agalarov, again insisting the person is Russian, this time on the grounds that they live in Russia: [134]
6. Added unsourced material (personal commentary) to a biography of a living person, Gerhard Schröder: [135] and [136]
   1. The changes were reverted, and someone made a post on Yasarhossain07's talk page explaining Wikipedia's policy of neutrality, to which Yasarhossain07 responded, "How is it neutral? It doesn’t feel like a serious article when you smear the former Chancellor of Germany. This article has a serious Ukrainian bias," and then made a personal attack against the user: "A key board warrior is calling one of the greatest German leaders who helped Germany reunify a Russian puppet. Wikipedia is losing it’s credibility because of keyboard warriors having too much power." User talk:Yasarhossain07#March 2024
7. Removed sources and content regarding money laundering and fraud in Sheremetyevo International Airport, with a disingenuous edit summary saying the content was vandalism and unrelated to the topic: [137]
8. Added unsourced material to a biography of a living person, Arman Tsarukyan, again claiming they are Russian: [138]
9. Removed content from Russia in the Eurovision Song Contest regarding a song that was sung in both Ukrainian and Russian, insisting it was only in Russian. This is not factual, and naturally, the song is also immortalized in all its bilingual glory on YouTube: [139]
10. Removed infobox content from Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia regarding the dispute on her succession. The user claimed it's unsourced and that the Russian Orthodoxy Church is the final authority, therefore there are no disputes. There are, of course, disputes, and they are discussed in the article's body with citations provided (and here's another): [140]
    1. Similar issue as above, but in House of Romanov (however, the information was unsourced this time): [141] and [142]
11. Removed sourced content from Baltic Fleet regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine, claiming, contrary to the references, "No official report or confirmation about the involvement of Baltic fleet in any possible way in the war in Ukraine." [143]
12. Unexplained removal of sources and content from United Russia regarding pro-Putin bias and inconsistency in the party's ideologies, replacing it with "[the party] still remains the most popular party in Russia." [144]
13. Removed content from Conservatism in Russia based on justifications that appear to be original research and personal opinion: [145], [146], and [147]
14. Unexplained removal of sourced content from Pulkovo Airport regarding a Ukrainian attack on a Russian oil refinery: [148]
15. Unexplained removal of sourced content from Great Stand on the Ugra River: [149]
16. Repeatedly adding unsourced content to BRICS, insisting Saudi Arabia had joined the organization, though they hadn't: [150], [151], and [152]
    1. The user eventually declared Wikipedia "the number one source of misinformation" and added outdated, incorrect sources as plaintext into the body: [153]
17. Added unsourced material to a biography of a living person, Farkhad Akhmedov, again claiming they are Russian: [154] and [155]
18. Removed sourced content from Azerbaijan–Russia relations about discrimination against Azerbaijani people in Russia (phrasing could be improved, but the source was a Russian journalist and political scientist): [156]
19. Added unsourced material to a biography of a living person, Sergei Skripal, claiming, "He is of Ukrainian decent." (A former Russian spy who acted as a double agent for the UK and was later convicted of high treason): [157]
20. Calling the Chechen National Army a 'terrorist' unit without supporting sources (units fight alongside Ukraine in Russia's invasion) [158]
21. Removed sourced content from Shamil Basayev regarding possible FSB responsibility in the person's death, claiming 'conspiracy theories' (the FSB themselves claimed responsibility): [159]
22. Removed sourced content from Alabuga Special Economic Zone regarding Russian drone development, justifying the removal with their own speculation or original research (or both): [160] and [161]

Skipped describing the following eight edits, as they appeared reasonable or could reasonably be mistakes, but provided them for completeness: [162], [163], [164], [165], [166], [167], [168], [169].

Thank you for any insights or responses. – Primium (talk) 03:54, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia has been completely trashed with fake news and misinformation. It’s a liberal left wing profits info war outlet like Elon Musk has already said. And it’s worse when it comes to Russia and India. Yasarhossain07 (talk) 04:34, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Yasarhossain07 Please hear me out. It's absolutely true that Wikipedia is biased, and, in my experience, often exhibits a notable Russophobic bias. If you want to do something about that, simply making the changes you feel are appropriate is not enough.

You must learn more about Wikipedia's policies, like WP:TERRORISM, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:V, and then you have to work within them and reference them in your critiques.

If you read those policies, and others, carefully, and come to truly understand them (and the ongoing & historical debates about them), you might be able to do something constructive to address bias on Wikipedia.

If you don't study & apply those policies, I'm afraid that you will probably be banned soon. I don't want to see that happen, so I hope you consider what I have said. Philomathes2357 (talk) 04:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia has been completely trashed with fake news and misinformation. It’s a liberal left wing profits info war outlet like Elon Musk has already said.

This, sir, is what some of us call "digging your own grave." You're not exactly allaying Primium's POV concerns, and building a NOTHERE case against yourself. The Kip ^(contribs) 05:25, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

TheKip is quite correct. Your statement above shows quite clearly that you find it difficult to be neutral about these issues. I would advise you to stay away from these articles, otherwise you could be blocked from editing altogether. Deb (talk) 07:06, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Editors regularly contribute in areas where they have a very obvious identifiable POV. The existence of a POV is not the issue here, IMO. Given that our treatment of Russia topics is widely acknowledged to exhibit anti-Russian bias, someone with a nominally pro-Russian POV would add diversity to the project and help counter systemic bias. If Wikipedia had a systemic anti-POC bias, we wouldn’t discourage POC or anti-racists from editing topics about race, just because they have a POV, would we?

The problem that led to this ANI thread is the complete lack of application of Wikipedia’s policies and guidelines, especially NOR and V. I hope this user will read my previous comment and seriously consider it, before it is too late. If they don’t express any interest in becoming a more rigorous editor, they will probably be banned, and that will probably be for the best. Hopefully they can turn things around and agree, sincerely, to do the necessary work to become a more thoughtful contributor. Philomathes2357 (talk) 18:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Shamin Basaev’s killing has been clearly orchestrated by the FSB. Rest of it is unproven conspiracy theory. Chechen National army has committed multiple acts of terror in North Cacauss after losing the war against Russia so it’s a terrorist group. Yasarhossain07 (talk) 04:36, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Unproven claim about Iran copying German design. Germany would’ve produced those drones and Ukraine would be using them against Russia. I think Wikipedia has a bias against Russia. How can Iran copy something from Germany without Germany ever making that product on their own? Speculative untouched gossip lowers the quality of articles. Yasarhossain07 (talk) 04:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Yasarhossain07, English Wikipedia is seen and written by a lot of people from the US, UK, and other country that has relatively bad relations with Russia. (ex. Japan, SK, etc...) It's pretty obvious how it's inevitable to have Wikipedia biased, especially with the international law breaking Russia has done since 21th century. Although you are welcome to fix the biased opinion to a more neutral point of view, that doesn't mean you get to ignore all policies, or that you get to rewrite it from your point of view. (You can remove statements that are unreferenced, however.) ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 05:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe there are two issues at play here. One is that the user indeed is trying to right perceived great wrongs and, to put it quite simply, I don't think there are many quicker ways to prove you're NOTHERE than quoting Elon Musk. His comments here and his disregard for the rules make it clear that a block is in order.

The other issue is that the user is not always wrong, and OP is misrepresenting some of his edits. For example, the user did not claim that Arman Tsarukyan was Russian, but that he was both Armenian and Russian, which he is. The situation with Farkhad Akhmedov is very similar. In fact, in both cases their Russian citizenship has been noted in the past, but was later removed. The same can be said of Agalarov (ethnic Azeri but Russian citizen) and Rauf & Faik.

He also has a point regarding Schröder. OP (rightly) raises BLP concerns, but I would argue that the main problem is that the first thing we are saying in wikivoice on that article is that Schröder is a lobbyist. Really? I would not replace it woth statesman, nor would I add that bit about it being normal for former chancellors to go work in the private sector (a truism if there ever was one), but seriously, former leader of a major party in Germany, long political career, 7 years as chancellor and the first thing in the lead, the thing that stands out, is that he is a lobbyist? I know it is fashionable to dunk on Schröder today, and to an extent he has earned it, but this is absurd.

TL;DR the reported editor has shown that he deserves a block, but some of his complaints have merit, ans it might be worth checking out what can be fixed. Ostalgia (talk) 06:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I didn't mean to suggest Yasarhossain07 changed their nationalities to only Russian (except for Anna Asti, which I specified above). My concern was that it was further unreferenced additions, even if true, to these articles about living people. Those small changes in isolation wouldn't really appear contentious or problematic to me, but in the context of the whole, I think they contribute to a larger pattern of behaviour. As for Schröder, I don't know anything about the topic, but a separate user undid Yasarhossain07's actions and called it 'personal commentary.' Sorry, I should have made these clearer in my initial post. – Primium (talk) 16:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

If someone responds with personal attacks and rants about how right Elon Musk is about Wikipedia when someone points out issues with their obvious policy violating POV editing, they probably do not have the temparament to edit Wikipedia constructively. I support a block or ban from contentious topics, since there seems to be no sign of desire to improve. TylerBurden (talk) 18:40, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Given that our treatment of Russia topics is widely acknowledged to exhibit anti-Russian bias, can I ask for reference on this "widely acknowledged" fact? There might be a anti-Russian tone in articles about the war in Ukraine but this is a sweeping statement presented as fact by several editors and I would like there to be some verification of a widespread bias they and others appear to perceive, in general, about articles on "Russian topics". I think that comments like these can't be made without being challenged or they can be seen to be accepted by others as true. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Bingo! It also implies that the bias is "editorial bias", something we do not allow. Editors are supposed to leave their biases at the door while editing, but they are also supposed to document what RS say, including the biases found in those RS. Since this is the English language Wikipedia, and most RS are in English, it would be natural to expect that English, primarily Western, sources, would tend to view Russia and its aggression in a negative light, and therefore our articles on such topics will naturally document that POV. This is just the "nature of the beast" for ALL different versions of Wikipedia. They will all display different, and even opposing, biases. Don't blame editors for that situation. In fact, if editors try to disguise, hide, or whitewash those POV and biases out of content, they are in violation of our NPOV policy. It is only "editorial" biases we keep out of content. Otherwise, sources and content are not required to be "neutral". -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  By "widely acknowledged", I was mainly referring to the fact that multiple editors here, at this thread, have acknowledged it. I've also seen it acknowledged elsewhere at other venues. I'm happy to talk about anti-Russian bias with you, and you're free to ping me at my talk page if you want to have a deeper back-and-forth about that, but doing a deep-dive on that subject here at ANI may run afoul of WP:NOTFORUM.

  The user in question here is undeniably problematic and flirting with a ban, but he also has potential to be a good contributor, from what I see, and I'm trying to encourage him to quickly move in a more constructive, policy and source-based direction before it is too late.

  The main reason I said what I said about Russian bias is to sympathize with him, so he is more open to what I have said about learning PAG. - he is not crazy or delusional to think that anti-Russia bias is a problem - he's just not going about addressing it in the right way. Philomathes2357 (talk) 20:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  This might not be an appropriate discussion to have in this discussion but saying things like he is not crazy or delusional to think that anti-Russia bias is a problem without any verification or reference that a bias exists is misleading. This is your personal opinion, no more than less than that of any editor who might disagree with you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  It is my opinion, sure. I'm not sure how it would be "misleading", unless you take the opposite view, namely, that it is crazy or delusional to think that there is systemic bias that affects articles about Russia. I assume you do take that view, otherwise you would not have taken the time to respond to my comment to @Yasarhossain07 and call it out for being misleading. That's obviously a-okay - we both have our opinions - and it's certainly a topic worthy of further discussion, but probably not here.

  It looks like this all comes down to whether or not YasarHossain issues a statement and publicly commits to carefully and soberly studying Wikipedia's PAG, earnestly trying to apply them to his edits, and accepting constructive criticism from others. If he does issue such a statement, I think he should stay. If he does not, he obviously needs to go. But I'm not even an admin, so it's not up to me - I'm going to disengage from this thread and let things play out. I've made my point to Yasar, and I hope he takes it seriously before the banhammer inevitably falls. Philomathes2357 (talk) 03:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You have no idea what my view is, I haven't expressed it. All I said was that you shouldn't make sweeping asseertions of anti-Russian bias on Wikipedia as if this is commonly known without providing some verification that this is true. My protest is against unsupported generalizations about the state of Wikipedia, not whether or not the platform is pro-Russian or anti-Russian. You stated your opinion as if it was a widely known fact and I questioned that, that's all I was trying to point out. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment It’s a liberal left wing profits info war outlet like Elon Musk has already said. I'm not left wing, and I have a great time around here. Generally speaking, liberals are not left wing, but right wing moderates. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Indeed. I'd also add, though, that it's critical for the far-right that the simplicity of the property rights typology be poorly understood. But it is in fact quite simple. On the left: Communists (public ownership with little to no private), Social-Democrats (public ownership with some private). And on the right: Reform Liberals (private ownership with some public), Classical Liberals, aka 'Conservatives' in the US (private ownership with little to no public). Or at least so it goes wrt doctrine. But the reason, I suspect, the far-right wishes to obscure this is because they largely fall on the centre, but will always gravitate as right as possible in terms of sympathy (and conversely antipathy the more left one goes), due to greater prevalence of traditional systems of oppression, repression, suppression, etc., and other forms of stratification from when Kings ruled. Because for the far-right, bigotry is paramount. //Tangent over! El_C 03:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Guys, please remember this this is not a forum. – Primium (talk) 03:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Guys-this! Erm, probably a good call. ;) El_C 03:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

What is the usual process for a situation like this? Are we waiting for something to happen? Is there something else I'm supposed to do? – Primium (talk) 17:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

At the moment, it seems no admin sees this as urgently requiring intervention. Yasarhossain07 was corrected by several people above, if they resume this editing you can update this post or make a new one (if this one gets archived). Until then, we hope they change their ways. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, thank you. – Primium (talk) 18:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

False accusations of meatpuppetry and violation of WP:ASPERSIONS

Obi2canibe Has made a number of false accusations on this AfD by falsely claiming that I am an Indian editor who has had no previous interaction with this article or any other Sri Lankan article, contrary to the fact that I edited a number of Sri Lankan articles before.[170]

Obi2canibe does not stop there but goes ahead to cast WP:ASPERSIONS by speculating nationalities of experienced editors as "Indians" (as if it is something bad, see WP:NONAZIS) and further demeans them as "meatpuppets" by saying "Same with his Indian friends CharlesWain, Orientls, Lorstaking, Pravega and Raymond3023. The only argument these meatpuppets can make for deleting the article is that it didn't happen."

I asked Obi2canibe to remove these personal attacks,[171] however, he has clearly ignored it and went ahead to edit the AfD without removing/striking the offensive comments.[172] Ratnahastin (talk) 15:14, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

While this doesn't excuse anyone else's behavior, you should not be calling (even blocked) editors rabid in that same AfD (see Wikipedia:Gravedancing). Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 15:29, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• @El C: Can you take a look into this report? Thanks. Ratnahastin (talk) 01:23, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Blocked – for a period of one week: User talk:Obi2canibe#Block. I'll drop a note at the AfD as well. El_C 01:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@El C: Thank you! Kindly also take a look at this comment by a user who never edited any AfD before[173] but wants to claim existence of "off-wiki coordination" by "North Indian users" after citing a totally irrelevant diff from 2017 together with the false claim that I and other "delete" supporters have "no prior editing in Sri Lankan topic", just like Obi2canibe was doing. Ratnahastin (talk) 02:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ratnahastin: You are required to notify users when you start a discussion involving them here, this counts too. – 2804:F14:8085:6201:A43F:E4B1:D650:8276 (talk) 02:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ratnahastin, what a bad faith move. Instead of notifying me that you took exception to it, you come directly here to get me sanctioned without once again notifying me? It was my mistake as a relatively new user to involve people's nationalities (which I've now corrected) but I wanted to bring it to admins' attention a suspicious activity that was going on. Also, I didn't accuse any user in particular of "off-wiki coordination" but suggested that admins look into POTENTIAL case of it.---Petextrodon (talk) 02:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@El C, dear admin, am I allowed to report the user JohnWiki159 under this same report for falsely accusing me of "working as a group" with the now banned sockpuppets "to keep their point of view in the article", when in fact I had publicly challenged one of the puppet masters for reverting my edit?---Petextrodon (talk) 03:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You are editing for more than 1.4 years as such you are not a new user. As far as I can see, there is clearly no "POTENTIAL case" of off-wiki coordination on other side because it involves experienced editors frequently editing for a long time. With your false accusations, you are not only assuming bad faith but also poisoning the well by citing a totally irrelevant diff from 2017 as basis and using same personal attacks as Obi2canibe. Can you tell your reasons why you are doing that? Ratnahastin (talk) 03:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ratnahastin 2017 diff was not in reference to you but two other editors who voted. I had intended to mention you in reference to taking the same stance as other India topic editors but admittedly I worded it poorly. I do consider myself a relatively new user since each day I'm learning a new policy. I thought it important to mention nationality as that figures into potential sockpuppet or meatpuppet investigation, but after reading that admin's warning I will be more careful.----Petextrodon (talk) 03:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I suppose you just did [report], Petextrodon...? I think it's best for disputants of either side in the dispute to refrain from making any un-evidenced statements that groups those editors together — unless there is real and actionable proof of prohibited influence, such as by way of WP:CANVASSING and WP:SOCK / WP:MEAT. Thanks. HTH. El_C 03:31, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• El_C User Obi2canibe is a leading contributor in Sri Lankan articles and has edited from 2007 that is 17 years without a block with 54000 edits and further he has not received contentious article warning.Feel you should WP:AGF at the first instance for a long term contributor and 1 week is excessive for the first time.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 05:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  For a minor offence sure. For such xenophobic attacks frankly they should be glad they aren't indeffed. Frankly contentious topics doesn't even come in to it although the fact it is a contentious topic does mean an indef topic ban should definitely be considered the next time there's any similar nonsense if a site ban/indef isn't the result. If I saw a fellow Kiwi or fellow Malaysia talking about how someone is an Aussie or Indonesian who had never edited articles on New Zealand or Malaysia before; or about someone and their Australian/Indonesian friends, I'd fully support telling them to GTFO of Wikipedia, no matter what their good contributions or that there isn't a contentious topic covering New Zealand or Malaysia directly. Nil Einne (talk) 11:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Nil Einne if I happened to be Tamil and I saw someone WP:GASLIGHT and write Nobody recognizes any "Tamil Genocide" in an AFD nomination I certainly wouldn't be very happy about it. TarnishedPath^talk 11:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

TarnishedPath, there are ways to express that without repeatedly attacking other editors on an ethno-national basis. Which is not a thing that will be tolerated. Pharaoh of the Wizards, they are free to submit a normal unblock request as this was a regular admin action, not a WP:CTOP one (otherwise it'd be logged). Anyway, Nil is right and his views reflect my own. Also, AGF is not a shield or cure-all, certainly not for the paradox of tolerance, so on its flip-side there is WP:PACT. El_C 12:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@El C, I agree that the blocked editor should not have gone off the deep end and engaged in racial attacks, however I can understand why someone might be very unhappy about what was written. TarnishedPath^talk 12:37, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• There should be some sort of discussion of OPs genocide denial as found in their nomination at Special:Diff/1225378532 where they wrote Nobody recognizes any "Tamil Genocide". This is in my opinion is a form of hate speech to WP:GASLIGHT over the mass targeted killings of an ethnic minority. OP ironically raised WP:NOHATE as a weapon towards the other editor, however this equally applies to their conduct. TarnishedPath^talk 11:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@TarnishedPath: No, it is not hate speech or genocide denial, and you need to tone down that rhetoric. It is a matter of legit debate whether to define it as such or not. While I think that AfD's opening is poor in a number of ways, you can't be that incendiary, also by extension to everyone on the delete camp. So I'm formally warning you, though am not logging it, to stop. Btw, my sense is that it probably should be defined as a genocide, but that's neither here nor there as my role here precludes me from weighing in on that. El_C 12:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@El C advice taken. As far as I can tell the only reason that it's not recognised as a genocide by a lot of powerful nations is because of their desire to maintain good relationships with certain neighbour countries. There is a lot of reliable academic sources which calls it a genocide and often without attribution. TarnishedPath^talk 12:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Wrong to say "not recognised as a genocide by a lot of powerful nations", because not a single country recognizes this "genocide". Abhishek0831996 (talk) 03:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

OK, perhaps I should have expanded my statement then. When a lot of nations have dubious human-rights records it's no great suprise that they might not recognise human-rights abuses by others lest it also shine a light on themselves. Additionaly other nations might priortise good relations with other nations over the human rights of people elsewhere. Most importantly though there is plenty of WP:RS that say that what happened to the Tamil people was genocide. TarnishedPath^talk 05:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• El_C You have warned me here on ethno-national personalization .... but I meant "India" and 'Indian" to indicate unusual geographical grouping for the deletion of Tamil genocide which is very contentious. Ratnahastin quoted irrelevant similarity with WP:NONAZIS as, "experienced editors as "Indians" (as if it is something bad, see WP:NONAZIS)". Obi2canibe meant like me only to indicate unusual geographical grouping for the deletion of Tamil genocide. Ratnahastin and other editors are only trying something similar to Holocaust denial by denying when there are enough books discuss on Tamil genocide. Others should not think of your neutrality on which basis Ratnahastin pinged you when there are hundreds of other administrators and on which basis you blocked an experienced editor Obi2canibe for one week without giving prior warning in this sensitive topic while not even warning Ratnahastin for calling (even blocked) editors rabid in the AfD (violating Wikipedia:Gravedancing).Lustead (talk) 17:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Lustead, if you invoke Holocaust denial again, I will block you with immediate effect. And while I find your questioning my neutrality with no basis to be... questionable, you can't now turn your The nominator also an Indian editor, you too an Indian Editor [etc.] at the AfD into unusual geographical grouping here, which is also problematic without actionable proof of wrongdoing. Anyway, a warning was not something I felt was warranted, seeing as Obi2canibe's ethno-national targeting was most egregious. Final warning to tone it down considerably.

You also risk a Sri Lanka topic ban (WP:TBAN) under the WP:CT/SL sanctions regime if you're found to not be willing or able to conduct yourself with due moderation. A sanction that I increasingly lean on imposing. This of course doesn't mean that I think the opposing side conducted themselves optimally (far from it), but I already addressed that. Finally, their AfD opening that mentions rabid sock puppets — it was written prior to my block, so what gravedancing are you talking about? It might be best you take a breather from this topic and dispute, if you find it difficult to engage it dispassionately. Please give that serious consideration, because you are at the edge presently. There's no better time for you to take a step back as now. El_C 18:33, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Obi2canibe posted an unblock request which was declined by NinjaRobotPirate,[174] but nevertheless, I found that unblock request to be very concerning. As Nil Einne noted that Obi2canibe should "be glad they aren't indeffed", it has no effect on Obi2canibe since he has used his unblock request to double down with the disruptive behavior that got him blocked in the first place. This is a case of WP:CIR and should be dealt accordingly. I note that Obi2canibe was already aware of both WP:ARBIPA and WP:CT/SL throughout this period.[175][176] @Bishonen: Kindly check this out. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 03:20, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

  Have you read WP:CIR? Why are you stating that they are aware of WP:ARBIPA when this is not about India, Pakistan or Afghanistan? TarnishedPath^talk 05:06, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

  ARBIPA is "broadly constructed", and this article could very reasonably be considered part of it, even if it wasn't part of CT/SL. CMD (talk) 05:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

  As you note CT/SL exists. It is its own discrete contentious topic area. TarnishedPath^talk 05:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

  No, CT/SL is also "broadly constructed", not discrete. CMD (talk) 06:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

  Topic bans are broadly construed. Topic areas can be descete. We're not discussing someone attempting to nibble around the edges of a topic ban here. TarnishedPath^talk 06:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

  They are both, per WP:ARBIPA and WP:CT/SL, "broadly construed", and furthermore all CTs are by default broadly construed. I'm not sure why you're nibbling around this technicality you are trying to create, there is nothing in WP:CTOP saying CTs can't overlap, and indeed some very obviously overlap. CMD (talk) 06:29, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

  I didn't write that they can't overlap. However in this circumstance do you think there is an overlap? TarnishedPath^talk 08:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Abhishek0831996 ,Bishonen User Obi2canibe is a leading contributor in Sri Lankan articles and has edited from 2007 that is 17 years without a block with 54000 edits.There no CIR with him and this is the first time that he has been blocked.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 04:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

This is a near-duplicate of a previous comment you posted in this thread at 05:50, 28 May 2024 - is there any reason why you have reposted it again, pinging a different administrator this time? Daniel (talk) 08:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I was only replying to Abhishek and Bishonen as Abhisek had pinged her.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 09:11, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

CIR accusation against User:Obi2canibe, the major contributor to the Sri Lankan Civil War related articles, might lead to silencing him for indefinitely and will create a major imbalance on still unresolved ethnic crisis on Wikipedia related articles and will eventually impact on real world geopolitical issues. I think we are heading towards ArbCom intervention and pinging one time administrator and ArbCom member (though he is not active now) @FayssalF: who significantly contributed resolving Sri Lankan Civil War related articles issues between 2007 - 2009 when he was an administrator. I am also pinging other active ArbCom members, @Cabayi:, @Cabayi:, @Firefly:, @Guerillero:, @Moneytrees:, @Primefac:, @ToBeFree:, @Z1720:, @Aoidh: and @Barkeep49:.Lustead (talk) 11:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what pinging Arbs does? For me, it's bad practice for Arbs to weigh in substantively on disputes at AN/ANI that ultimately come before them and when it does come before ArbCom it's going to need to be based on the evidence presented there. ArbCom recently designated Sri Lanka as a contentious topic so it would not surprise me if there was work on the editor side needed. I also wouldn't be surprised if the community could ultimately handle that side of things without ArbCom. I'd encourage anyone thinking about requesting arbcom intervention to read the introduction and filing a case parts of the close but not yet finished guide to ArbCom for parties for both why ArbCom may not be needed and for how to do it "right" if ArbCom is needed. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Briefly: editors of lengthy tenure can still display WP:CIR (sometimes to a damaging degree). Like, for example, pinging every active arbitrator to an ANI thread. If anything, this thread is proof as to why my attention was well warranted in this instance. El_C 08:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Two years of persistent disruptive editing and vandalism by IP user

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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2601:580:C100:7BD0:99CD:59C8:E520:D7F9 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is the current IP that this editor, geolocated to Fort Lauderdale, Florida, USA, who has for at least two years been persistently vandalizing the list/disambiguation page Airi. I have left messages on their talk page consistently asking them to stop. I have asked that the page be protected (wasn't granted). User was permanently banned on several occasions ([177], [178], [179], [180]) but since it is an IP, they just spring back up. User removes references, categories, reverts edits, leaves bizarre claims in edit summary, or no edit summary. I have repeatedly asked the editor to stop, asked why why they persisted, and left warnings on their talk pages. I never receive engagement from them on their talk page(s). The user is convinced (or, has to be trolling at this point) that there are literally no women named Airi in Estonia, despite the references, the name having an official name day in Estonia, at least 13 women with the name to be notable enough to have Wikipedia articles on Estonian Wikipedia. The IP user has had warnings from other users for other disruptive editing as well over the years. This is very frustrating. ExRat (talk) 18:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, I've protected that page for two weeks. I know that won't stop them permanently but it will give some immediate relief. I have tried to communicate with IP editors who make problematic edits but jump from IP address to IP address and I agree it is frustrating and just about impossible. I doubt that they even know there is a User talk page associated with an IP address and may not even be aware when their IP address changes. This isn't a long-term solution to the problem but I rarely ever have done a range block and am afraid of collateral damage (I don't want to take out all of Southern Florida). If an admin with more experience in that area wants to take that on, feel free. From examining two of their IP addresses, it seems like a lot of their other edits have been reverted while others were accepted so this primarily seems like a strange fixation on this page. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Liz. I appreciate your help. ExRat (talk) 19:42, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know about collateral, but the /64 has been blocked multiple times, the last one for 3 months, which expired on the 18th: Special:Log/block.

On the day they were blocked they had pretty similar summaries to what they have now [181], and they restarted editing about 1 hour after their range's block ran out...

All of that to say, I'm unconvinced that they don't know they have user talk pages, or at least that they didn't know they were blocked for 3 months. – 2804:F1...50:8276 (talk) 21:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe you don't want to assume it's safe to block either way, but it's worth noting that the 3 people who blocked that range are checkusers, so presumably they already evaluated that whatever possible collateral would happen (if any) is worth stopping the disruption (for those block lengths) - though I'm pretty sure a lot of admins just block the /64, because that is often assigned to a single router/location, before it changes. – 2804:F1...50:8276 (talk) 21:40, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:NOTHERE user User:DisciplinedIdea

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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DisciplinedIdea has been doing some large edits to articles such as Universe and Teleology which are simply WP:OR and WP:PROFRINGE. Particularly their rejection that the term universe is defined, and edit summaries like:

Trigger warning for physicalists: but this retooling of the intro is entirely warranted

and following up discussions on the talk page with lengthy personal-attack laden rants which are, generally, not particularly comprehensible:

diff

diff

From how combative they are with everyone attempting to engage them (see their talk page, plenty of aspersions cast in there as well) and the low quality of their edits coupled with an insistence that they were in the right all along, I think this is a cut and dry WP:PROFRINGE WP:NOTHERE. In a 24 hour window they've been warned for disruptive editing and personal attacks, and have made it very clear they do not intend to listen to feedback

For now, it is you who is being disruptive and breaking site policy to silence me, and all but completely. I have to hear “universe, universe” every damn where, but you can’t even tolerate the tag “disputed.” (from user talk page)

address the substance or don’t lay your filthy hands on me (or anyone like me) again (second diff above)

Many of the historical edits do appear to have a bit of a word salad, prose, and/or citation issue, though some of them fall outside my ability to figure out their quality beyond some clarity issues which would fall outside the scope of an ANI. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 09:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

What DisciplinedIdea peddles is New Age mysticism, not science. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:17, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Indefinitely blocked. Enough time wasted on that. Daniel (talk) 09:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:RUSUKR sanctions violation

Unfam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - non-EC edits of 25 May 2024 Kharkiv missile strikes page [182], [183] despite warnings [184] , [185] , [186] . Non constructive comments with personal attacks in talk [187] [before the warning]. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• All I want is for a single video that proves russian claims about hypermarket used as an ammo storage being either linked or uploaded, in any way you like. It is as constructive as it can be. Also, I don't understand how it is a personal attack. Unfam (talk) 10:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  Two (arguably three if you include a typo fix) clear bright-line breaches of RUSUKR, as well as a brand new editor wading in calling another editor a "hypocrite" in a CT area talk page. I think we have generally viewed this pretty dimly? Daniel (talk) 12:39, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  I might be wrong, but deleting evidence in favour of one side or another due to, in my opinion, personal bias, is much worse than anything I ever did. Unfam (talk) 13:55, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Have indefinitely ECP-ed the article per sanctions. No comments on the content, removed or otherwise, have yet to evaluate those. – robertsky (talk) 13:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
• Yet another weaponization of ANI. This is a recurring pattern from ManyAreasExpert. He has already weaponized it against me some 2 or 3 times, as Cinderella157 will probably remember. MAE seems to use all his knowledge, including Wikipedia policies knowledge, to corner and tilt people into making mistakes and rash decisions/comments. Almost as if he laid a trap. I think this is a much bigger problem than a new editor's attempt to edit and balance a contentious page section in good faith. Look, Unfam was very constructive in that talk page discussion and clearly tried to make careful and balanced suggestions of edits, which I thought were reasonable and implemented them myself to represent the Russian POV. It all changed when MAE stepped in.

Why do people seem to loose their minds when interacting with MAE, me included sometimes? Probably because he recurrently uses the theme/narrative of Russian propaganda, Russian unreliable sources, Russian misinformation, Russian war crimes, Western MSM is more reliable, there is no Western propaganda, there is no Ukrainian propaganda, Ukrainian officials can say whatever they want in Western sources and that is always considered superior to whatever the Russians say in Telegram, etc. This kind of argument is infuriating since it's already very difficult to show/represent the Russian POV in anything without the typical Western negative labels. Many Russian sources are already blacklisted and, often, one must translate the allowed sources to find the relevant info. Covering the other (Ukrainian/Western) POV, on the other hand, is so much easier and less stressful. Just Google anything and you'll be almost ensured to be flooded with English anti-Russian articles with varying degree of Russophobia. Why am I saying all this? To show how tense and one-sided this whole RUSUKR debate is, and to show how frustrating it is when we're spat with the "Russian propaganda" argument whenever we try to voice their POV.

But this would be the first step of the trap. As the other editor is getting triggered, MAE counteracts with edits using notoriously pro-Ukrainian/pro-Western sources, injects unfavorable background only to one side, injects wikilinks that are flooded with unfavorable content towards one side, etc. Then, in the heat of the argument, he warns about sanctions and civility as he goes all soft, complaining that being called a "hypocrite" is a PA (which it kinda is, but give me a break, look at what you do. does it actually hurt because you know it's true? or was is legitimately offensive?). By the way, Unfam's retraction and response was quite concerted afterwards; good! However, within those hot minutes Unfam made a technical mistake of directly editing a sanctioned page while I was away. And now the "witch hunt" is on...

And just a few days ago, MAE potentially tried to bait me in a related article talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2024_Kharkiv_offensive#Losses_claims_in_the_infobox. He contested one of my recent edits here; I then boldly reverted it mostly based on the POV argument he used (that you can't put Ukrainian and Russian claims side by side because Ukrainian claims are much more 'accurate' in his mind), despite me knowing better arguments in favor of MAE's edit (i.e. that the claims span different time intervals, thus kinda apples to oranges); he then warns me of a policy; I then read it and understood he was right and his tone was fine, then I basically retracted my revert here and pretty much conceded in the talk page here with the OK emoji, dispute should be mostly solved; however, he then poked/baited me with this sarcastic comment, trying to act all tough and superior as if he was in a position to demand submission. I didn't fall for it, fortunately. Or, alternatively, he simply didn't understand my comment and saw the talk page before the article and consequently wouldn't see the retraction edit. Anyways, more and more tension which never occurred, for example, with Super Dromaeosaurus in Talk:2024 Kharkiv offensive#War crimes and misconduct (look at the difference in tone of the dispute resolution).

Concluding, I wanted to formally request that MAE be prevented from opening new ANI tickets against editors when attempting to solve contentious content disputes, especially when only MAE is showing concern in the talk page and especially during the early stages of discussion (it was literally a discussion of a few minutes and MAE was already potentially asking for sanctions/restrictions on this editor). This request also accounts that MAE has systematically made content edits that, afaik, exclusively favor the Ukrainian POV in the past. And also considering that MAE seemingly abuses the enforcement of Wikipedia policies without good intent, i.e. in a mission to corner and intimidate whoever attempts to represent/voice the actual Russian POV in articles.

As for Unfam, he has already been plenty warned and has shown understanding and restraint. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 13:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

This is contentious topic. Asked to adhere to Wikipedia rules, you gave no affirmative response [188] and continued [189] adding anonymous tg channels as sources. Removing reliable sources at the same time [190] . You did the same before - User talk:Alexiscoutinho#May 2024 - propaganda telegram in contentious topics . Stop using tg channels and Russian state media as sources, stop equating POVs reported by reliable sources with propaganda reported by Russian state sources, stop attacking the opponent when asked to adhere to Wikipedia rules, and everything will be fine. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

But meduza isn't a reliable source. Unfam (talk) 14:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

So you are adding anon tg channels to the article [191] , and are saying that Meduza is not reliable. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Meduza is a reliable source. Ymblanter (talk) 16:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

It is funded by american government. Then any russian news website should also be reliable sources. Unfam (talk) 12:38, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

First, it is not funded by the American government. Second, there are many reliable sources funded by the American government. Third, Russian government sources are not reliable because they consistently publish disinformation, not because they are funded by the Russian government. Fourth, the fact that you write this shows very clearly that you need an indefinite topic ban from any Russian and European topics. Ymblanter (talk) 16:09, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

you gave no affirmative response what?! how is "OK" and an effective retraction edit in the article not an affirmative response? Your sarcastic question was provocative. Did you really want me to "lick your boots"? and continued adding why the "and" connection here? I contributed by adding a missing POV, and was even thanked for it. Even though the execution wasn't ideal, the intention was fine. Removing reliable sources at the same time Don't distort this, I removed blatant POV pushing, like you did in that mini Aftermath section of the battle of Bakhmut, and I would remove it again if I could go back in time. Even pro-Ukrainian Super Dro acknowledged that those wikilinks were a stretch. You did the same before the situations were completely different, and as I explained above, the intent of the latest episode was fine. Russian state media as sources I'm still not sold on the reasoning behind a blanket rejection. stop equating POVs reported by reliable sources with both POVs were reported by reliable sources as you showed. with propaganda reported by Russian state sources this is just your POV leaking through; doesn't even try to hide the lack of acknowledgement of Western and Ukrainian propaganda. stop attacking the opponent when asked to adhere to Wikipedia rules, and everything will be fine. well, one gets what one sows. Whenever you base your concerns/disputes on one-sided propaganda claims, you'll get unconstructive discussions. Give neutral comments/requests, like you sometimes do, and we'll actually get somewhere without wasting arguments. The same applies to other editors: don't expect them to be all cooperative when you start calling the shots, deleting stuff, substituting it with oppositely biased sources, calling the other's info propaganda and then threatening through ANI. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 15:57, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

he recurrently uses the theme/narrative of ... there is no Western propaganda, there is no Ukrainian propaganda, ...
This is plain wrong. Please limit the user from making such false accusations. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 14:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Don't worry, ManyaAreasExpert, I won't do this any more. I've made you stop vandalasing the article with your edits, and stopped you from hiding the evidence. Now the page is locked, so nothing can be changed. Even though there is still no video linked or uploaded, as I asked, but at least it is mentioned. This is the best anyone could do, with people like you around. Now you can continue crying about personall

attacks or what not, I won't bother you any more. Unfam (talk) 14:16, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you want me to retract that? Because I never saw you acknowledging those. Therefore, it appeared like so. Did I get carried away? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You are making false accusations because I haven't acknowledged something you think I should? Please stop discussing editors, this is not constructive and is a WP:PA: Comment on content, not on the contributor. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment on content, not on the contributor Well, this whole thread started with a "comment on contributor" when it was actually mostly based on a content dispute... And yeah, this discussion has been pretty milked already. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

this whole thread started with a "comment on contributor"
This is not true. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Indeed they misrepresented a particular source to push a particular POV.[192] I am not sure if this is due to a poor understanding of English but this is not the first time. Mellk (talk) 15:46, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Where is the misrepresentation? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:49, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Moser does not say that it should be called Old Ukrainian. The alt name is already well established, therefore calling it anachronistic in wikivoice based on one person's opinion is the very definition of POV pushing. Mellk (talk) 15:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Moser does not say that it should be called Old Ukrainian
... and Moser did said what?
is the very definition of POV pushing
... but your initial claim was about misinterpretation. Should we abandon it, and discuss the new claim instead? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

In the quote you provided (shown in the diff), he refers to Old East Slavic and mentions the term Old Ukrainian if Old East Slavic "can deliberately be given an anachronistic name". If you cannot understand what the source says, then this raises concerns. Mellk (talk) 16:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

That's the correct representation of Moser. Note how the quote was added with my edit to avoid any misinterpretation.

Now, where is the misinterpretation? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

He did not say that Old Ukrainian is how the language should be called (i.e. this should be included as an alt name), and other editors said the same thing on the article talk page. So, this is just you who misunderstood what he said. Again, for such edits, WP:CIR applies, and it is clear from your other edits that you do not have a good enough command of the English language. Mellk (talk) 16:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

... but Moser did said that "Old Russian" is anachronistic, and that's what my edit was. Moser did also said that compared to anachronistic Old Russian, Old Ukrainian is more appropriate, and that's what my edit was. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I have just told you that Old Russian is a well established name and this is supported in the rest of the article, you changed this to "anachronistic" based on one person's opinion, while you included the term "Old Ukrainian" as an alt name as the "more appropriate" name for Old East Slavic. We are just going in circles here so I will leave it at that. Mellk (talk) 16:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Not "more appropriate" then Old East Slavic. More appropriate then Old Russian, supported by Moser. Provided with quote to avoid misinterpretation. Where is the misinterpretation here. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

This is off-topic deflection by Mellk. Getting back to the actual serious issue - no, anonymous posts on Telegram are no RS, never will be, and anyone who tries to use them repeatedly despite warnings has no business editing this topic area. Volunteer Marek 05:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

No, I just added my experience to the response to claims of POV pushing. Of course, as Manyareasexpert started this discussion, his own conduct in the topic area can be reviewed as well. Since you claim that I am deflecting, doesn't your topic ban include not commenting on editors? Mellk (talk) 05:23, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not have a topic ban here nor any restriction on commenting on editors, especially at AN/I where the *whole point* is to discuss editor behavior. Please stop trying to derail the discussion by trying to shift the focus to others. You were doing it with Manyareasexpert before - this discussion was about the Kharkiv Missle Strike article and you tried to muddy up the waters by bringing up some completely irrelevant edits at… “Old East Slavic” - now youre trying to do it with me. Volunteer Marek 05:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I see, the restriction is personal comments on articles and article talk pages only. I also responded to Alexis Coutinho's reply which is about Manyareasexpert's conduct. As you said, this is about editor behavior, so I am not sure why you replied to me to complain about this. I added my input, if you do not have anything to add to this, reply to someone else instead. Mellk (talk) 05:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I’m not under any such restriction either. You should probably drop these attempts at derailing the discussion now, since that too can be seen as disruptive. Volunteer Marek 05:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Next time do not reply to my comment about a particular issue if all you are going to do is make nonsensical accusations of derailing. Mellk (talk) 05:49, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Specifically, this right here is textbook example of using clearly non-RS sources for POV. Last time this happened Alexiscouthino pleaded ignorance of rules. Obviously one can’t use that excuse twice for same offense. Volunteer Marek 05:25, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

No. That was only a first attempt to represent an official POV in good faith, without ever trying to distort or suppress the other (Ukrainian) POV, in an article that was clearly one-sided and was even pushing untrue statements with wikivoice. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 10:00, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

This is real POV pushing, and this... Alexis Coutinho (talk) 10:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean, adding academic sources is POV pushing. And replacing TASS and tg links with Meduza and RFEL is POV pushing. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:37, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean, adding academic sources is POV pushing. You circumvented two entire RfC discussions by selectively writing in the first sentence of the Aftermath, which was directly linked by the infobox result, the result you preferred, while completely ignoring the other analyses, thus bypassing the spirit the "Russian victory - See Aftermath" link and mischaracterizing the result in your favor.

And replacing TASS and tg links with Meduza and RFEL is POV pushing. I wasn't clear. The TASS replacement was ok and I even thanked you for it. The injected background from RFEL was POV pushing. I could have similarly thrown in mentions of previous war crimes by Ukrainians and instances where they used civilian infrastructure to store military hardware to push the Russian point across. But I didn't, as selectively adding background that is not connected to the incident by current sources is POV pushing. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 10:49, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

while completely ignoring the other analyses
Six academic sources were provided with my edit. Which academic source was ignored?

The injected background from RFEL was POV pushing. I could have similarly thrown in mentions of previous war crimes by Ukrainians and instances where they used civilian infrastructure to store military hardware to push the Russian point across. But I didn't, as selectively adding background that is not connected to the incident by current sources is POV pushing.
Let's say it again. The RFEL article Russian Forces Hit Hypermarket In Deadly Assault On Kharkiv, Surrounding Villages (rferl.org) is not connected to the 25 May 2024 Kharkiv missile strikes. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 11:00, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Which academic source was ignored? Don't play dumb. You know exactly what you omitted. RFEL article propaganda outlet whitewashed as RS. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 11:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Another personal attack due to lack of argument. No academic sources were omitted.

propaganda outlet whitewashed as RS.
... but your initial claim was selectively adding background that is not connected to the incident, should we abandon it now? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 11:37, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Another personal attack due to lack of argument. No academic sources were omitted. I stand by it, you're being disingenuous. The situation was obvious. There was an RfC which overwhelmingly sides with "Russian victory" not "Russian pyrrhic victory". There was already a big paragraph discussing both interpretations of the result of the battle in the analysis section which you and I helped to construct. Yet you thought that wasn't enough. You wanted to put "pyrrhic victory" with ALL the spotlight. Since you couldn't write "pyrrhic victory" directly in the infobox you decided to say it in the first sentence linked by the infobox result. You infatuated the citation by adding the most qualifiers you could and flooded it with refs. You even put that "pyrrhic victory" statement before the true aftermath paragraph to make sure the reader was convinced it was "pyrrhic victory". And of course you didn't bother covering the other analysts which considered the battle a "Russian victory" as was done in that larger paragraph of the Attrition section.

your initial claim was selectively adding background What background? If you are talking about the secondary explosions, that's literally part of the incident itself. abandon it now? Well, in the article it was already abandoned... so maybe... Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Since we have determined that no academic sources were ignored, we can conclude there is a consensus among them regarding "pyrrhic victory" or such. And yes, this academic consensus POV can be preferred against what's written in news media. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

You can't dare say there's any consensus given your edit pattern. Until you show how you sampled those academic sources for a representative array, I won't rule out that you simply cherry-picked those sources. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Asked "which academic source was ignored", received none. What are we talking about here? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

You have been plenty explained. If you still can't understand, that's your problem. Unsubscribing from this thread right now as it's becoming unhealthy and toxic for both of us. Ping me if someone requests an important reply. I really don't want to argue with you again in ANI. I repeat my original request that I don't think MAE is qualified to use ANI against other editors in RUSUKR war topics due to being too involved. I won't complain if you argue the same to me, that I'm not qualified to raise ANI tickets in this area. Let cool heads prevail. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:38, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

The situation is getting a bit out of control as now we have editors arguing straight up that it’s ok to use non-reliable sources as long as these “represent the Russian viewpoint” [193]. I know I’ve been away from this topic for awhile but no one alerted me to the fact that apparently WP:RS got revoked for this topic area in my absence. Volunteer Marek 05:37, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

MAE's conduct hasn't been flawless, but I definitely think Alexiscoutinho is far closer to a community sanction given the continued, disruptive use of Telegram sources after being told, repeatedly and explicitly, that the community does not consider Telegram to be reliable source. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 07:51, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

disruptive use of Telegram mind elaborating?

At least I don't weaponize ANI, admit mistakes when I make them, and am not a professional entitled POV pusher. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 09:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

am not a professional entitled POV pusher
I'm sorry, yes, another ANI request Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1149#Academic sources removal in favor of trickster POV pushing, WP:BATTLEGROUND regarding your removal of academic POV in favor of Russian Prigozhin POV. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, yes, another... Are you apologizing or attacking? You already lost that case due to distortions. Why are you bringing it up again? I already indirectly mentioned it in my first text wall. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 10:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Let's have a look at one of the latest edits [194] . So the source Summary for 24–27 May 2024 (until 8:00 UTC+3) — Teletype (citeam.org) says
on the basis of video, yet in your text it becomes based on videos - where's plural in the source?

video with pops similar in sound to a secondary detonation - note they use similar to, yet in your text it becomes - recording background sounds of smaller secondary explosions - a fact.

When an ammunition depot detonates, as a rule, some shells fly in different directions, hitting neighboring buildings, but in this case nothing of the kind is observed, yet your text says which was purportedly not observed - where's purportedly in the source? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

where's plural in the source? the fact that there isn't just one eye witness video about the aftermath of the strike. video with pops similar in sound to a secondary detonation - note they use similar to, yet in your text it becomes - recording background sounds of smaller secondary explosions don't see much problem with that. Would need to rewatch the videos. But I guess the text could me amended/improved if someone thought is was important. nothing of the kind is observed, yet your text says which was purportedly not observed just because the limited evidence there is doesn't show such collateral damage, doesn't mean there wasn't any such damage. The affected area was big and who knows what happened, say, in the back of the hypermarket? "Purportedly" seems adequate here when absolute certainty can't be achieved. If we were to report what such sources say at face value, then there would be no need for investigations. Because CIT is God and know everything, knows the absolute truth.

Complaining about these now feels like nit-picking. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 11:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

So you misinterpret the source based on your own thoughts. Are we allowed to do this in Wikipedia?

Meanwhile, another telegram link returned [195] after reading on how they are inappropriate. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 11:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Are we allowed to do this in Wikipedia? Are we allowed to POV push in Wikipedia like you did? Meanwhile, another telegram link returned stand by it with the caveat in the edit summary. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:05, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Are we allowed to do this in Wikipedia? Are we allowed to POV push in Wikipedia like you did?
An unproven accusation is a personal attack and is a good argument to justify your misinterpretation of sources. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Go on softy boy. You're lucky I don't fixate so much on the unproven accusations you did to me. At this point I'm just getting baited over and over by MAE. And fucking up my real life. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Calling someone "softy boy" is a pretty blatant insult, ie personal attack. Bad move. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

That was an absolutely atrocious revert. Using an unreliable source "because it's needed" is absurd. Luckily, it was quickly reverted. Does the community have to stop you from using Telegram against clear consensus? It seems you won't stop on your own. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:21, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

MAE's conduct hasn't been flawless
I'm sorry you feel so, and I want my edits to be improved, please do tell how can I do so, thanks! ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:44, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think pressuring Alexiscoutinho to give a yes/no question about their reliable source use was really productive, since ultimatums like that rarely are. Nothing I would think is sanctionable, especially in a heated argument. Remember, being correct doesn't mean one has to raise the temperature. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 10:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate that. Will think about that. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:34, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Unfam has made two (technically three) edits to an article falling within WP:GSRUSUKR while not a WP:ECP user. While they were made GS aware contemporaneous with the events. this edit by MAE warns them not to edit the page but also asks them to edit the page to revert their edit, which renders their warning somewhat ambiguous.

Unfam, you may not presently edit any article dealing with the Russo-Ukrainian War (broadly construed) - even if the article is not specifically protected. There are also higher expectations of conduct on talk pages in this area. Once you are confirmed as an ECP user (500 edits and one month registered) you may edit articles in this area. Please ask if you have any questions regarding this.

The article has now been protected by robertsky. In the circumstances, I think it would be sufficient to formally log a warning that any subsequent infractions will be dealt with much more harshly.

On the matter of the alleged PA, AN is very fickle in how it deals with such matters. Don't be a hypocrite [and add the other material] is quite different from saying, "You are a hypocrite" - though we really should avoid personalising discussions. I have seen much more egregious instances bought here (sometimes made by Wiki untouchables) that have hardly raised an eyebrow - which really is hypocritical. I believe that a warning is also sufficient in this case.

On the matter of social media as a source, this video, appearing in the article is sourced/attributed to a tg account, an fb account and a news source (of unknown quality) that has fairly clearly used the fb source. The question of sourcing is not so cut and dried in a POV charged current event dominated by WP:NEWSORG sources used by many without discrimination between fact and opinion and a view that WP is a news streaming platform. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I only created wikipedia account to ask someone in the talk page to include the video of the secondary explosions. I didn't even want to edit the article at first, untill MAE came and completely deleted any mention of that video, called TASS "russian propaganda", whilr i

incingded unnecessary background info, sourcing websites completely or piaalrtly funded by american government (meduza aradio free europe) which is definition of american propaganda. This is the only reason for why I told him to not act like a hypocrite and why I edited the article myself, despite the lack of experience. I haven't called him a hypocrite then, but I will now, because his actions are the definition of this term. In my opinion, he shouldn't be allowed to edit any articles about ukraine/russsian war, because he is clearly biased. I even asked him to include the video in any way, shape or form he likes instead of completely deleting any mention of it, yet he completely ignored my requests. Instead he started crying about me bullying him and about how "anonymous tg channel isn't a source". Yes, MAE, it isn't a source, but it doesn't make the video itself fake. In my opinion, that video should be uploaded on wikipedia and included in the article, like the CCTV video. But at least it is mentioned in the article now, which is already better than nothing. Now it is better than the russian version of the article, which uses the mass murder template, lol. Unfam (talk) 12:30, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, and so this [196] follows. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Am I wrong? Unfam (talk) 13:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you're pretty much wrong. What is allowed to be used as a reliable source is not a question of who funds, but one which the community decided by consensus of editorial freedom, historical reliability, reputation for fact-checking, and the like. There are many sources that are funded by some government for which a consensus has been achieved that they are reliable and can be used and many non-government sources which there is no consensus that they are reliable. The community consensus is largely the opposite of your opinion is what is reliable, but Wikipedia policies are made by consensus.WP:RSPSS CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:05, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

True, after all millions of flies can't be wrong, right? After having a brief interaction with some of the users here, I understand why no-one sane uses wikipedia as a source. It's nothing more than just a giant reddit-like cesspool. At least it is populated with similar people. Oh, you can also cry about personal attacks, I don't care If I'm going to be banned any more. Unfam (talk) 14:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Nobody should be using Wikipedia as a source within Wikipedia per WP:CIRCULAR, and nobody should be using Wikipedia as a source outside of Wikipedia, given that it is a tertiary source. If you question the reliability of Wikipedia, you're in good company. See Reliability of Wikipedia. In general, Wikipedia is considered as reliable as any other encyclopedia. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Translation: you liked Wikipedia just fine until you discovered that it had policies, guidelines and practices that could constrain you from doing or saying anything you wanted. As may be. You are, of course, the best judge of how and where you spend your time. Ravenswing 16:09, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

So, what do you suggest then? Reliability of sources not by consensus, but simply by whatever the most recent person to edit something thinks? How exactly do you think this would work?

Wikipedia is based on consensus and reliable sources. And if that's a serious issue, then this simply isn't a project for you. Which is OK; there are lots of many great projects out there in the world. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 17:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Given the above tantrum, I'd say an indef is appopriate, since Unfam is WP:NOTHERE. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

HandThatFeeds, I had the exact same thought when reading the above. This is also a personal attack as it comments on the contributor, not contributions ("Biased user") - plus is just a bit of an obnoxious thing to write to someone. I have indefinitely blocked Unfam. Daniel (talk) 18:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

We have gone from the ambiguous to the unmistakable. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposal: Warning

Proposal: Alexis Coutinho warned not to use Telegram as a source

The rest of the thread appears to be sorting itself out, but Alexiscoutinho's continued use of consensus-unreliable Telegram as a reliable source, despite being repeatedly told not to [197] [198] with the excuse that it's OK because it's representing the Russian POV is disruptive in an already extremely sensitive topic. The latest, removal of an image with an edit summary implying revenge "eye for an eye," rather than arguing the source is unreliable, is another edit beyond the pale. The editor is clearly aware of this consensus from a December thread at WP:RSN which exists because of their use of Telegram [199]. I think an explicit warning from the community that Telegram sources are inappropriate is the minimum that needs to be done. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 18:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, left out the "eye for an eye" diff. [200] CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 18:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Well their use of tg sources comes not of love for tg, but of their belief that Russian POV, regardless of the quality of the source, should be represented equally to the RS's POV. I. e. WP:FALSEBALANCE .

Addition: I would even correct the "Russian POV" above to Russian propaganda POV, as there are Russian press like Meduza, Insider, Zona, and such, as well as Russian scholars like Igor Danilevsky and others, which are the representation of Russian POV, but the editor is not willing to appreciate these. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Just shut up to say the least. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 20:51, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Super Ψ Dro 18:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
• If it was just repeated re-adding of Telegram posts (despite being told not to) that’d be one thing. But we also have super WP:POINTy edits [201] with combative and WP:BATTLEGROUNDy edit summaries (“an eye for an eye”) AND referring to other editors as “professional entitled POV pusher”s AND telling them to “just shut up” (both in this thread above, along with a whole slew of other personal attacks). I think this is well past the point of “warning” (which they’ve had had plenty already) and well into topic ban from Eastern Europe territory. Volunteer Marek 22:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

User:Zo world and WP:NPOV

The editor @Zo world: has been around for a year or so, and only edits in relation to tribes in the Indian state of Nagaland; particularly, anything relating to the Kuki people. I initially spotted this when they kept inflating the number of speakers at Thadou language ([202] [203] [204] [205] [206] [207] [208] [209]) over a period of months, despite being reverted and asked to provide sources numerous times by various different editors (as seen in the page history: [210]), but their contribution history reveals a consistent pattern of adding unsourced claims, inflating the prominence of some tribes over others, or removing sourced claims ([211] [212] [213] [214] - there are many, many other examples like this in their contribution history). They've been asked to stop numerous times on their talkpage by several editors, but haven't responded to any of them, so I've had no choice but to report them here. As a side point, they've also started marking all of their edits as minor since around June 2023, which I suspect is an attempt to hide what they're doing from other users. Theknightwho (talk) 18:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

While their "minor edits" deception and their manipulation of content are reprehensible, their complete failure to communicate shows they have no desire to collaborate and are therefore WP:NOTHERE. Block needed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree this is another WP:NOTHERE user. Block them.CycoMa1 (talk) 23:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• I agree that blocking is the only option left. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 02:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked Xo world for for persistently adding unsourced or poorly sourced content. Edit summaries like and for reference please check latest news that highlights myanmar conflict, shows that the editor has a profound misunderstanding of Wikipedia's core content policy of Verifiability. It is inappropriate for Xo world to instruct other editors to go searching for reliable sources. Instead, it is their obligation to find those sources, format them properly as references, and add them to the articles. Cullen328 (talk) 03:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

PredictIt and Better Business Bureau

I believe the same user, under many different IPs, has been adding the same information about PredictIt's supposed F rating from Better Business Bureau for years due to a long-standing grudge against the company.

The first edit was this one on January 6, 2021 by 69.47.208.85 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). This later edit included a section called "FBI Sting Operation", which matches this BBB review from November 13, 2019 about how the customer was apparently interrogated by the FBI for three hours.

There have been many subsequent IP edits readding the BBB section whenever it is removed:

• Special:Diff/1006697046 on February 14, 2021 by 69.47.208.85 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1007205109 on February 17, 2021 by 69.47.208.85 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1007474153 on February 18, 2021 by 69.47.208.85 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1018238613 on April 16, 2021 by 69.47.208.85 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1038441075 on August 12, 2021 by 2600:1700:1e20:7a10:95a8:1895:24b8:6dc5 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1194088505 on January 7, 2024 by 2600:1700:1e20:7a10:55ad:629a:7201:7891 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1194206705 on January 7, 2024 by 2600:1700:1e20:7a10:499a:5ed:ca96:1705 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1206999398 on February 13, 2024 by 2600:1700:1e20:7a10:586f:2d30:4b99:8eca (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1226190129 on May 29, 2024 by 2600:1700:1e20:7a10:405f:692b:c922:315b (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

I think these edits are from one person because all the IPs geolocate to the same place: Chicago, Illinois. As this user frequently changes IPs, even within the span of a day, I haven't warned this user apart from leaving {{ANI-notice}} since they probably will not see it.

What's typically done in a situation like this, where reverts are spread out over months and years and made by different IPs? --Iiii I I I (talk) 06:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Suggestion: take it to WP:RFPP. Ostalgia (talk) 07:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:RFPP seems the right venue as mentioned above. Broc (talk) 07:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Just to note 2600:1700:1E20:7A10:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been active and pushing the same edits to PredictIt since August 2021. They have a habit of waiting a few weeks to come back and try and force the same edit. There are other IPs in that time frame making good faith edits. So a block rather than page protection seems more appropriate. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm looking into this. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 20:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

2600:1700:1e20:7a10::/64 blocked from the pages PredictIt and Talk:PredictIt. The article has also been protected. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 21:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

User:Periyavacharanam

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Is ranting in all caps and calling another editor "racist", here: [215]. Skyerise (talk) 11:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

They seem to have a hard time understanding that we use WP:RS, and don't limit ourselves to traditional views on religious matters. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support WP:NOTHERE block. Ratnahastin (talk) 12:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
• Blocked indefinitely as NOTHERE. —Ingenuity (t • c) 13:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Cambial Yellowing

Is it reasonable for one editor to assert in the edit summary of a revert of a good-faith edit by another, that the reverted editor had lied?

The timeline:

1. I restored, verbatim, the second part of a sentence which had been deleted as unsourced by Cambial Yellowing as I thought I had found that it was supported in the cited sources. I found mention of "jurisdiction" further down the sources, so assumed, rightly or wrongly, that it had been missed there by Cambial Yellowing, and the edit summary given by them for the original deletion was quite cryptic anyway.
2. Cambial Yellowing then reverted my edit with the snarky summary: none of the sources claim the reason no action was taken is *because of* "as" the fact tax is not under jurisdiction. please do not lie about the content of sources, add unsourced content to a biography of a living person, nor edit war to restore unsourced content to an article and posted a threatening and unnecessarily inflammatory 'warning' on my talkpage which clearly demonstrated their total failure to assume good faith.

Note: I have rarely raised issues here, and would normally raise this type of issue on an editor's talkpage, but a recent attempt to do that on a similar subject with this same editor was met with a blanking and with the posting to my talkpage of a misrepresentation of what I was doing and a 'ban' from ever posting again on their talkpage.

Thanks for any advice or brickbats. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Let's see now, I note the specific word that is unsourced in the text: "as" (in context, with the sense of "because"). Not only is it not "cryptic", I indicate precisely what is unsourced, and I put it after the word "unsourced". The presence of the word "jurisdiction" in the source has no bearing on this unsourced material about the reason for discontinuation. Nowhere do the sources indicate anything remotely close to this being the reason. The edit summary DeFacto seeks to impugn as "snarky" simply reports the fact - no sources support DeFacto's content (and no source comes close) - and requests, please, that DeFacto not repeatedly add unsourced content to BLP articles in future, nor claim that two specific sources say something they do not, which wastes editor time. (n.b. that's the standard warning template for unsourced content; level 3 was used because 1. you added it a second time despite the fact it was unsourced being pointed out 2. you have many edits to your name and ought to know better 3. this is a BLP.)

As DeFacto wishes to discuss what he claims is a failure to assume good faith, it's appropriate to raise DeFacto's quite explicit accusations of bad faith on article talk. Firstly an accusation of editing for the purpose of "hostility towards another editor and disingenuous comments and edit summaries", and later the same day an accusation that collapsing a sockpuppet of a blocked user is "to satisfy [a] craving to be make a point" – an evidence-free, and groundless, claim of disruptive editing to make a point. Cambial — foliar❧ 14:30, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment the content dispute is at Angela Rayner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). There is some discussion on the talk page. Walsh90210 (talk) 17:50, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Looking over User talk:DeFacto, it's clear that this dispute between two editors has been going on since early May. If this is going to be resolved, it's important for uninvolved editors to know that this animosity has been lasting for weeks and is not just due to an recent exchange of misunderstood edit summaries. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Persistent vandalism and/or general low quality editing from Shera mc official‎

This doesn't seem explicit enough for WP:AIV, but user @Shera mc official‎ has been making edits to Wikipedia for a while that seem to be a mix of Tamil history fringe or football fandom.

• Editing the correct information out of the Serie A article to put Inter Milan in instead: diff

• Editing the Sumerian language article to state Tamil is older: diff

• Changing the actual winner of this league to Bengaluru FC: diff (and since I had to look this up too, source)

• Same thing here

They've been warned for their edits twice now: diff diff

Working back from February there's 19 edits and almost every single one has needed to be reverted or rolled back for being flat out not true. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:06, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Blocked. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

The history of chair is once again being raided

History of the chair (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The history of chairs has been raided for the past three months, removing information about chairs in sub-Saharan Africa. It stopped for a week. Now it's being raided again. I changed it back this time, but I don't want to be banned for doing it too many times..It is done by sock accounts editing their talk pages to get the 10 edit mark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Developed it entirely (talk • contribs) 14:15, May 29, 2024 (UTC)

May need to be changed to Extended Confirmed protection. I just blocked a bizarre sleeper sock account from last year that just blatantly gamed to get autoconfirmed just to disrupt the article. So there are likely other sleepers out there. Canterbury Tail talk 19:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

it's being posted all over 4chan and 9gag encouraging users to go and remove the part about chairs in sub-Saharan Africa. Developed it entirely (talk) 19:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I can post proof if you want Developed it entirely (talk) 19:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

No need, I think people are aware after last month. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

What a bizarre thing to start an edit war/socking/meatpuppetry encouragement over. Canterbury Tail talk 19:25, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

3 socks in 9 days (since semi-protection). Annoying but manageable, IMHO. Although if another admin thinks differently I'll defer to them, no strong opinion on this. And if newly confirmed accounts show up more often, then if I see it I'll EC it myself. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

People were getting banned for like a week or two and most of the bans are up now also it's being spammed over the internet and imageboards. I think it's going to get worse if I'm being honest. Developed it entirely (talk) 19:37, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I updated the protection to extended confirmed, until August--Ymblanter (talk) 19:58, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, have not read all the discussion carefully. If consensus develops it is an overkill pls reduce back to semi, perfectly fine with me. Ymblanter (talk) 19:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Can you also do something about the sock account who gamed to get autoconfirmed just to vandalism the article? Developed it entirely (talk) 00:13, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you mean User:Ms. Dangelo Rohan? If so they're already indeffed from before Canterbury Tail replied Special:BlockList/User:Ms. Dangelo Rohan, so what more is there to do? If you're thinking a CU, well WP:SPI is thataway but I'm not convinced it's beneficial here. From what you've outlined fair chance that most of these are just a bunch of different people. I sort of expect at least one CU has already assessed whether it's worthwhile anyway. Nil Einne (talk) 00:39, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh i didn't know he got banned but thank you for your help and time even if it's just a reply. You guys have begin really helpful! Developed it entirely (talk) 00:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Accusations of bigotry

User:Dalremnei joined in 2021 but had no edits until 2023, and then only produced a handful of edits outside their own page and CSS. Today, they show up on Talk:September 11 attacks to dispute the inclusion of "Islamist" in the article, something supported by multiple reliable sources over the years.

When Dalremnei failed to get support for removing this term, they began repeatedly claiming this was due to established editors "ideologically" defending the status quo, then accused editors of bias and {bigotry.

Bigots love to hide behind the justification of just being "logical" and "looking at the facts" and I should be able to call that out. [216]

Well, I knew this would happen as soon as someone tried to drag this issue into the talk page. You win, established editors. You get to comfortably ignore opposing views because the mainstream media affirms all of yours. I tried to make a compromise edit that addressed this edit but oh, that's not good enough... wiki editors demand absolute ideological compliance. [217]

But it seems impossible to get this edit done in a way that satisfies "the rules". Every time I reverted the page it was reverted back, and then I was accused of edit-warring. If you aren't part of the elite editor clique your views mean nothing. [218]

Your point just seems to be "well the mainstream media agrees with our bias so it's actually neutral to perpetuate it". I'm sure you can understand why I strongly disagree with that. [219]

Ah, the "show me the evidence" game, where subtle bigotry is never actually proof of bigotry and the goal posts are always shifted to excuse it. Classic. [220]

Editor was warned multiple times about WP:NPA both on the Talk page discussion and on their own Talk page, but that last diff was the final straw. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 01:01, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

NOTHERE'd for RGW/personal attacks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:05, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Now fooling around with the block notice [221] and continuing with talkpage polemics. Acroterion (talk) 02:27, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

TPA revoked. Star Mississippi 02:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

User adding hoax flags to article

October 2022‎ user Superior6296 (talk · contribs) added the hoax flag Uzbek Khanate Flag.svg to List of Uzbek flags. After i (rightfully) removed it [222] added it back again with explanation four days ago --Trade (talk) 06:45, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Non admin comment: The source of the flag being uploaded is from a series of books, apparently, just to skip content dispute concerns. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 06:57, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

The description of the image stated that it was fictional so i assumed that was the case. Not an expert on vexillology Trade (talk) 07:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)