Talk:Periyar/Archive 1

Why such inaccuracies ?

Why is there no mention of the Vaikom struggle ? Did some self-proclaimed Aryan remove references to Vaikom ?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by MylaiMirasu (talk • contribs) 22:12, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

EVR renamed as Periyar

As Periyar University,District are named after him.Tamil Nadu Government calls him Periyar so Periyar 125.22.158.169 09:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Periyar River predates EVR by Centuries

The Periyar River, one of the important rivers of South India, predates EVR by thousands of years. Periyar is only a title for EVR given by his followers, and not accepted by others. Because his followers are in power in Tamil Nadu, Tamil Nadu Government calls him Periyar. He never renounced his given name including the caste name during his lifetime. So Wikipedia should refer to him as E. V. Ramaswamy Naicker - the name he always used for himself. Please rename the title to EVR and use disambiguation.

Apart from Periyar River, there are also Periyar Wildlife Sanctuary, Periyar National Park, Periyar Lake, all related to Periyar River, having nothing to do with EVR. All these are major tourist destinations worldwide so it is not correct to go to EVR when one types Periyar in Wikipedia.

Contrasting EVR and Sree Narayana Guru - Hatred vs. Godliness

Why I respect Sree Narayana Guru but not EVR. This article says it much better than many others can: http://www.rediff.com/news/jan/27raj.htm

River is really Periyaru = Big River = Periya Aru;

EVR is the real Periyar. Great Man - Or Thanthai Periyar - Father Dada Great Man.

As such Periyar is really EVR and not the river.

--Cindy Manu 12:14, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

-- Periyar River is referred to as Periyar not Periyaru for the last 3000 years.. so you want to rename it for your convenience?? You guys will do anything to get your way won't you..

While Periyar is bad 'Thanthai Periyar' is worse :-) Why would everybody want to call this man as 'Father'.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RSekar (talk • contribs) 22:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

So you think when someone says "Thanthai Periyar" they mean he is their father ? By your logic, since Gandhiji is called the Father of the nation, he is everyone's father ??? Man, you need help.

periyar was a charlatan and a hoax.

his supporters are busy making up stories about him. one such is his appellation as 'vaikom veerar' or 'vaikom hero', regarding the myth that he was a major player in the vaikom satyagraha on 1924 in kerala.

the fact of the matter is that evr went to kerala. nobody paid the slightest attention to him, because everyone in kerala knew him as a hate-mongering ruffian. he came, he saw, and he was ignored. so instead of 'vaikom veerar', he was 'vaikom visitor' or 'vaikom tourist'. but this 'vaikom veerar' bullshit was part of a speech made by karunanidhi justifying 'dravidian' imperialism over the mullaperiyar dam in kerala just a few weeks ago, so they are still shouting from the rooftops about it.

and why do i feel particularly incensed about this lie? it is because members of my family led the vaikom satyagraha, and they were the ones who were beaten up by the police. this poseur periyar just showed up, got some 'photo ops' and was roundly ignored by all concerned.

this is the kind of 'truth by repeated assertion' that the 'dravidians' and their patrons the christists are very good at. 'dravidianism' is a nihilistic and empty neo-semitic cult, and the cult founders and camp-followers have made out like bandits, just like the fellow-travelers who have benefited from all the other neo-semitic ideologies like marxism, nehruism, ambedkarism, etc.

Periyar related Articles

I have asked for help from India message board. Added NPOV as the point of views are heavily disputed I feel we need someone neutral to adjujrigate on this who is knowledgeable on this. Vaikom issue ,Periyar was asked to lead the agitition because he happened to be the President of the Tamil Nadu congress Committee. Please refer these 2 http://www.media-watch.org/articles/0499/65.html http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19990331/iex31073p.html Anyway added your viewpoint also. Further the naming dispute also has be resolved by someone neutral As I see no meeting point here.

Further blogs,messageboard and own website are not considered as reliable sources as per Wikipedia policy

http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/12/dravidiana-perversity-of-periyarana.html is a blog now anyone can create a blog or a own site and link a article and give it as a source this is not allowed as it is not it is not relable

while a website of say congress party for a congress article is relaible through gives only there POV.One can add another artcle with a different POV.Harlowraman 07:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"a website of say congress party for a congress article is relaible" -- how is it reliable? Will they cover Emergency period or the anti-Sikh riots in a neutral manner? Will you take information about Nazi part from their web site? Think about it. Same goes for periyar.org or tamilnation.com (12.108.188.134 00:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC))

There is a difference between "partisan" and "reliable". A partisan source can still be reliable, and a non-partisan source can still be unreliable. This is a case of the former.periyarite websites are reliable to state periyarite views in a partisan way. They are not reliable to be stated as the truth. That is my understanding of wikipedia rules.Rumpelstiltskin223 01:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

EVR is a not good leader

Neutrality Issues

The EVR page has been run largely by his followers, and presents a very deliberately cultivated point of view. EVR's hate campaign against the Brahmin community of Tamil Nadu is being hidden by the authors, and any attempt to mention that is immediately edited out. One has to only read any of his articles to see how he viewed only brahmins, and every brahmin (irrespective of attitude or background) as the enemy. Since this is a minority community it does not have any voice in what is put out in Tamil Nadu. This situation is similar to that of the Periyar movie - it is created by funds given by the TN government (run by DMK), and other funds collected by DK and other organizations. Further, announcements related to the movie are given by DK general secretary. How objective is this movie going to be? Let Wikipedia not descend to those levels.

Reply - Seconded. He was a polemicist and he laid the groundwork for the persecution of Brahmins in Tamil Nadu.Bakaman 23:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply - Absolutely. For all his talk of being a rationalist, there never was a bigger hypocrite that walked this earth than EVR. He always advocated anti-brahminism in the garb of atheism. His philosophy never boycotted Islam, Christianity and other religions and their gods. He found soft targets in brahmins and found it easy to create a movement like this and get away with it. If only EVR and his cronies(DK, DMK, Satyaraj, Veeramani, Kamal Hassan included) had spoken against Muslims and their beliefs the way they did against Brahmins, history would have been vastly different. There would never have been any Dravidian parties in existence today. Anti-God is different from Anti-Brahminism and EVR advocated the second in the garb of the first.Silanthimanithan 10:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply - Mr. Periyar had his beliefs which some of you may agree or not and consequently consider him great or otherwise. I am up for neutral presentation of both viewpoints. But I am saddened by the fact that the page has been just used to spill out more anti-brahmin venom. People need to stop blaming others for their problems. Sure some are born rich, others poor, life is like that - it is all upto you.

Persecution of Brahmins Facts do not support this

Please clarify this point

Periyar or EVR spoke and wrote against Brahmins this by itself does not turn into Persecution in a democracy

Looking right from 1919 till date in over 80 years

• 1: No Brahmin has been killed
• 2: No Anti Brahmin riot has taken place
• 3: All measures like Reservation was passed by the legislature subject to challenge in a court of Law.
• 4:He never waged an armed struggle
• 5:He was never even charged for murder or any violent crime
• 6:No Brahmin man or women was ever even serously injured.
• 7:No Human rights group ,MP,MLA including Brahmin MP has spoken in parliament or legislature about the so called persecution of Brahmins.R.Venkatraman,T.T.krishnamachari etc
• 8:No Brahmin has left Madras/Tamil Nadu as a refugee .They have left like many others for better prospects.

Hence I find the concept of Persecution a mere mythI would welcome a reply to this.

125.22.132.241 20:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The facts DO support hate against Brahmins in South. See [1]. There is clearly a systemic vilification of Brahmins in the South. While I admit that some Brahmins have been less thannice, to use that to vilify ALL Brahmins is hatemongering and persecutiob. Please keep such rabidly Anti-Brahman hate out of the encyclopedia, thaa Rumpelstiltskin223 21:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Brahmanism and Periyar

People in Imdia should be greatful that finally they can get rid of casteism and religious superstition because of Periyar and other social workers like him. Brahmins are just like any other Indian. They do not have any separate DNA or blood group. as such Brahmins should start mixing with other caste and voluntarily marry other people. This will benefit India in the long range as other nations were able to enslave India because of caste system. If all Indians have joined and fought against the Invaders who came through Khyber Pass or the other colonialists who came through the Cape of Good Hope and Suez Canal the status of India is now far bigger than Japan. India was done to slavery because of the caste system. That is why Periyar is great. He has the guts to tell everything he believed that is true and scientific. Brahmins should take it easy and get over with their new status quo. --Cindy Manu 12:25, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Cindy's note is an example of the muddled thinking that EVR's followers show. First of all, EVR changed the meaning of the word "Brahminism" to mean what is normally meant by "Casteism". In the rest of the world and in the rest of India outside Tamil Nadu, "Brahminism" means the rituals and traditions of Brahmins. This largely includes traditions that are historically practiced by Brahmins and has nothing to do with Casteism. EVR's clever usage of words made Brahmins the only guilty party in a complex caste system that is practised mostly by non-Brahmins. If he had been serious about removing casteism, he would have used the word Casteism. EVR's scapegoating of Brahmins is his only legacy in Tamil Nadu. He blamed all brahmins without exception for all the evils of Tamil society. In his way of thinking, any Brahmin was guilty simply because he was born a Brahmin. Didn't matter whether he/she was broad-minded etc. Most of EVR's ideas show a high degree of emotion-based hatred rather than rational thinking. He is *not* a rationalist in the commonly understood sense of the word - i. e. one whe reasons things out and comes to conclusions. EVR is better described as a hate-monger, similar to other hate-mongers such as Hitler. He wanted the destruction of Brahmins in Tamil Nadu, nothing more, nothing less. He also did nothing for the dalits. He belonged to the non-brahmin upper-caste Naickers, and his propaganda largely benefited the non-brahmin-upper-caste - i. e., the OBCs - who rule Tamil Nadu. -RSekar

I fully agree with this. Also, Periyar lunatics can hardly claim to be more "rational" when every Periyarite in TN keeps claining that Periyar invented everything from fire to rockets. Periyar was a thug like Mussolini. Hee. Rumpelstiltskin223 18:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Reason for Brahminism

Look in 1919 over 70% of the posts of Madras Presidency were with the brahmins and over 65 of the university students were brahmins. Brahmins dominated madras Presidency this caused resentment amongst the non brahmins and a non Brahmin Justice Party which brought communial reservation for the first time in india to ensure that 93% non brahmin also got a reasonable share in government jobs ,education etc.Reservation and other measures was supported all other castes except Brahmins as they had everything to lose and similarly.It was only later divisions within the non brahmins like Thever-Dalit,Vanniyar-Dalit came.when Periyar led the movement they were united.Opposition this came only from the Brahmins.No other caste opposed hence Periyar also had to oppose them.this reform movement and policy were opposed by the Brahmins.

That just shows that Brahmins were culturally more prone to education, not a systematic or institutional discrimination by Brahmins in the South. That is a fiction invented by Periyarites in order to portray Brahmins as the mythical "other". Reservation is supported by many Brahmins. Only opposers are Bhumihars/landowners, not scapegoate Brahmins (though some Brahmins oppose it, Brahmin community as a whole did not oppose). Please keep out Periyarite propaganda from wikipedia, thaa. Rumpelstiltskin223 21:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Not just in 1919, but even today, if you take certain industries/businesses in Tamil Nadu, certain castes will be dominating even more than Brahmins dominated education. For example - let's see how easy it is for a Dalit to start and thrive in a jewellery business controlled by Chettiars. Or a textile business dominated by Naidus. Where is the anti-Chettiar movement against that? Or where is the talk of reservations in businesses (just like affirmative action in businesses in the US)? The fact is, EVR's movement was a hate campaign against Brahmins, and it did not differentiate between poor or rich brahmins, or broad-minded or narrow-minded brahmins. Brahmins took to education because they had a strong cultural background that encouraged it and actually discouraged the making of money. I don't think anyone who grew up in Tamil Nadu can say with a clear conscience that Brahmins were not vilified by EVR's movement and that foul language and threats of violence were not used against them. It is true that no brahmins were killed but that is because Tamil Nadu was not a separate country and because Brahmins never reacted violently to the violent rhetoric coming from EVR and his followers. What are we seeing now in regards to Srirangam where the people who damaged EVRs statue weren't even Brahmins? That is being used as an excuse to physically attack brahmins with tacit support from the DMK government. (RSekar 22:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC))

Education needs to be Universal

Mr Rsekar Education needs to be universal if the country has to progress.This is the goal of almost the view all right thinking people and governments worldwide.please do not compere Education with Textile or Jewellery.The main reason why Bihar ,Africa do not well is lack of education despite being rich naturally whereas Japan ,South korea do well is because of there human resource created through education despite lacking natural resources. Kerala has achived widespread literacy, equitable and broad health coverage, gender equality, improved life expectancy, poverty reduction despite lack of natural resouces and investment due to education.Tamil Nadu has also progress socially compared to states like Bihar. The reason Tamil Nadu and Kerala do well is because of education where all sections of the society right particularly backword castes have also got education.This is the result of leaders like Periyar,Narayana Guru ,Justice Party who opened the doors of education to all in particular backword classes Whereas in states like Bihar,UP etc upper castes dominated until the Mandal Era. In Bihar for example more 85% of the backword castes are illitrate hence they have pulled the state backwords with low literacy ,poor health coverage ,low life expectancy,poverty and in recent years great social tension between castes. Mr Rumpelstiltskin223 The reason why more brahmins got educated whereas Dalits and other backwords did not is due caste system and caste based professions(Varna system . Education needs to opened to all sections of the society and students of all castes need to enter higher education.Education needs to given to all castes . For the injustice done due to the caste system Dalits and backword castes get just 2 major concessions

• 1:Reservation in higher education
• 2:Reservation in Government jobs.

No social group can be ignored by the Government .Today if goes to a Government office or education institution he will find prople from all castes the number of Brahmins has come down significantly from about 70% in 1919 to around 10% No single caste dominates Similar is the case in BPO which have no reservation.We find Boys and girls from all castes .no single caste dominates. If the IT field is doing it is due to the human resource created by education.Here the sourthern states are doing well .Education has been given to all castes whereas in the north majority of backword are still not given education hence they have pulled the states social progress backwords. Look in 1919 over 50% including the entire population of dalits had less than 2% of the seats and less than 1% of government jobs. Look reservation ensured that all communites got a chance in education.Education was denied under the varna system for over 5000 years.The first generation needs to be education like in Kerala later educated parents will ensure there children are educated for social progressHence the need for ending Brahmin domination.Further in 1919 we had only the Madras University and Annamalai university came up only then in the entire Madras Presidency which included parts of Andhra,Malabar,Belalry etc.There was also a clear lack of resources hence one had to rob peter to give paul.125.22.132.241 18:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is WP:NOT a soapbox. Take this nonsense to a blog. BTW I am not a Brahmin.Rumpelstiltskin223 01:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Your argument does not hold water in the light of the fact that Japan, one of the most developed countries in the world, has a caste system with untouchables called Burakumin. We need education and upliftment, that's for sure, but not at the expense of any groups of people, be it Brahmins, Dalits or anybody. As for your diatribe against "Northern States", may I remind you that Gujarat is the most industrially prosperous state in India. Every village in Gujarat has electricity and running water. Punjab has extremely high levels of education with agriculture rising and supplying food to millions across India. West Bengal has produced some of India's most brilliant minds, from Tagore to Amartya Sen. So North Indians are doing just fine thanks. I have great deal of respect for South Indian culture and heritage, from Tamil Cholas to the admirably high literacy rates of Kerala, but YOU kindly keep your Dravidocentrism out of wikipedia, thaa. Rumpelstiltskin223 04:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Burakumin are 100% literare in rich Japan and enjoy social security among other things.Secondly they are small minority about only 2% of Japanese Population.Further Caste system was never as organised as in India

Your reference does not back your statement:

“ they are hampered because poor living conditions and education prevent them from obtaining good employment and low income leads to the next generation repeating the cycle ”

They seems as troubled as the Dalits. I believe Burakumin are often compared to Dalits. The only reason why there are more Dalits than Burakumin is because there are more Indians than Japanese. Looks like your little propaganda peice backfired.Rumpelstiltskin223 13:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Further I feel the writer refered to the Hindi belt The Hindi belt is not doing fine and Bihar in particular and the Hindi belt. more IT investors including Bill Gates prefer Andhra and the south over north india. Haryana and Punjab are rich argicultural states from time immerial.Gujarat is a traders despite recent violence investment follows in.Bengal was a leading state till B.C.roy was the chief minister.Calcutta was India's most prefered city.61.247.247.249 12:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The Hindi belt is messed up, but the rest of North India is doing just fine, thaa.Rumpelstiltskin223 13:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, you are trying to couple backward caste and Dalit as if they are together. Yes, Dalits need help but what about Kaunders and Naickers and many Mudaliar and Reddiar sects - who stopped them from being educated? That is the flaw in EVR's thinking. I wouldn't call it a flaw - he deliberately singled out Brahmins for hatred while these other castes were the ones discriminating against the Dalits. Now these same castes are getting the same benefits as the Dalits! EVR was nothing but a non-Brahmin upper caste activist who managed to use the Dalit's real sufferings to get benefits for his own kind (i. e. the Rich OBCs of Tamil Nadu.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RSekar (talk • contribs) 05:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

If Periyar was a hate monger then

• Gandhiji was one too because he wanted to evict British out of India (and so did many freedom fighters including George Washington). Don't forget that some Britishers don't give a damn about Gandhiji.

You forget that many Dalts hate Gandhi (specially Ambedkar himself), and he is not widely liked by Jews for his remarks concerning the holocaust.Rumpelstiltskin223 04:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't insult Gandhi by comparing him with EVR. Gandhi stood for universal love. EVR stands for hatred against Brahmins and nothing else - however much his followers try to whitewash him and rewrite history.

• Martin Luther King was too because he wanted to unshackle blacks from racism (Many whites don't give a damn about MLK).

MLK is quite widely liked in USA. They have statues of him everywhere, and every major city has a road named after him. Even MLK was not perfect. He plagiarized his research and there were reports of him cavorting with prostitutes. Also, he supported Soviet Union and communism. Rumpelstiltskin223 04:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

MLK never uttered a word of hatred against white people. On the other hand EVR had nothing but foul language for Brahmins. Don't insult MLK by comparing him with EVR.

• Nelson Mandela was too because he wanted to get rid of Apartheid and bring Democracy to South Africa (that meant clearly the whites were going to loose as they were a minority).

Mandela is not widely liked either. Many non-Boerist people in the west criticize Mandela for terrorist activities of the ANC. Rumpelstiltskin223 04:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Mandela, again, did not urge the annihilation of white people. Moreover comparing Mandela and EVR is ridiculous. Brahmins did not rule TN the way whites ruled SA. The real rulers of TN were always and still are the rich OBC castes - Kaunders, Thevars, Chettiars, Mudaliars. Brahmins are merely the scapegoats.

• Periyar was, in some sense, did more than the above three "good" leaders because he fought for Women's rights (unknown at that time), against supersitions (unfortunately still bringing down India and other places even today), helped other minorities (Chirstians, Muslims, Buddhists, and others) as they were often threatened by extremist hindus.

There is every indication from his personal life that periyar had little regard for women, and treated them no more than commodities to fullfil his own political aspirations and ego. He abondoned his wife immediately after the death of their infant child and ran away to kashi - does that sound like someone who deeply cared about women and their welfare, or respected his wife? While many Indian men at that time, who were fighting for india's independence, had to leave behind their families for the sake of the freedom of the country, Periyar was not deeply patriot nor an enthusiastic freedom fighter. He was more interested in furthering his political career and saw the British presence as being useful in his political agenda. His abandonement of his wife, and family, reflects by today's standards of marital relationships, a total disregard for his spouse and family. In today's societal context, he would have been labeled as a dead-beat husband. Second, he married at a relatively old age to a woman far younger than himself, and tried to rationalize his behavior that he did it that she could inherit his legacy. His justification rings hollow. She was no doubt a highly attractive young woman who kindled passions in the old man. If his intentions were indeed honorable as he claimed, he could have formally adopted her as his child, which would have then made her the legitimate heir to his legacy. The practice of adoption, by childless persons, was quite common those days. Yet, he married this woman young enough to be his grand-daughter, after decades of preaching respect for women. {user: vmiller2007]

Periyar was a low-level street thug with delusions of grandeur and superstitions of his own. His movement was a sick joke whose adherents believe that Periyar invented ebverything from the wheel to rocket spaceships. He was violent, reactionary, racist and a propagandist. I have nothing but contempt for such people, who destroy the cultural harmony of India by instigating hate against a group of people and incite mobs to murder them and rape their women. Rumpelstiltskin223 04:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

EVR was the biggest hoax. A rich landlord who got benefits for his own class while claiming to help Dalits!!

• Sure Periyar wasn't perfect, you can blame him for the problems still existing (after all he should have solved them all single handedly) but thanks to him and others like him, the whole India is now waking up to doing things the right way, meaning giving opportunities for the great majority of them who are the low castes and the untouchables.
• It won't be painless for the high castes but then over a long time there would be no need for the word "caste" in the dictionary and all will gain.

And Periyar's solution was what? Drag every Brahmin and shove them into ovens, or behead them with knives? Rumpelstiltskin223 04:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

EVR's followers said "Kovilai IdippOm; Agraharaththai Erippom; Parppana pengalai pothu udamai Akkuvom" - translation - we will destroy the temple, burn the brahmin extension, and make Brahmin women as public property (i.e. prostitutes.) I don't think Gandhi, Mandela, or MLK said anything of this sort (nor did their followers). Now you judge EVR yourself.

When a child misbehaves badly, a mother may curse "Nasama Po!" (somewhat equivalent to "Go to hell") and the child and most onlookers know not to take this literally, which is exactly what has happened in the last 70 years or so (if not answer the point above on where is the evidence for persucation of brahmins... Also, you have been spewing poison in your writings so far and I have not seen what are your great ideas for solving the serious problems of castes?

Copyright violation

I have removed several sections of the article that appear to be direct copies from http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-periyar280603.htm. The website appears to be copyrighted, and there has been no assertion of permission to copy the article here. Please do not restore these sections without getting the original author's permission to reproduce content under the GFDL, and without reporting it to permissions at wikimedia dot org. Thank you, Tangotango (talk) 11:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Periyar's effect on TN

Lots of brahmins have hatred towards Periyar even though none of them felt the effect of his actions personally. However today Jayalalithaa Jayaram a Brahmin Iyengar is the leader of AIADMK. She has been CM many times. S. Ve. Shekar another Brahmin is a MLA in TN assembly. T N Seshan was the CEO of India. Kanchi Sankaracharyar is still the number one spiritual leader in TN with a huge following.

Periyar fought for the rights of backward people. He condemned discrimination of backward classes and dalits. It is only fair that the majority gets to rule while giving minority its proportional power. In this Brahmins have got more than their proportion to tell the truth. One cannot expect to get 100% the power by being only 4% the population in a democracy.

Sriramwins 05:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Neither can one expect to get jobs simoply by being born in a rich but low caste family, work without the fear of getting fired, and more or less leech off society. Periyar was not an expert on sociology or anthropology, so his "Brahmin mafia" Hinduphobia, is much like the anti-Semitism in 19th century europe,.23:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Even now Brahmin mafia exists even within Brahmins. For example the TVS group of companies reject Iyers and only select Iyengars for the jobs in their companies. Who cares about Government jobs in India anyway? Everybody is quitting government jobs. As far as leeching off society goes, one has to wonder who is worse whether it is modern politicians who invest their earnings in India or the British and their enablers who took their earnings to UK? Sriramwins 22:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Sriram, Get your facts right. Where on earth did you come up with a fact that TVS group reject Iyers? I have worked with automobile industry and know many Iyers and non-brahmins in high positions in TVS group. (rams81 20:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC))

Periyar against discrimination and their propagators

Periyar was against both Brahmins and saiva-Vellalas since they were discriminatory towards the remaining 90% of the population. They had all the power, lands and government jobs.

However Brahmins have borne the brunt of his attack simply because brahmins had all the power, lands and government jobs. This was out of proportion to their numbers in the population.

Sriramwins 21:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah and Pluto is a planet. The brahmins were 3% of the population, the Nadars, Vellalas, Muda-liars etc had the power. Periyar is a documented anti-Brahmin, and also a documented racist.Bakaman 23:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Brahmins were major power holders in Madras Presidency. Nobody can deny that. The only Nadar who was CM was Kamarajar. He did not help even his mother. Again Saiva-Vellalas were quite powerful as Brahmins even though they also constituted only 3% of the population. The Mudaliar and Pillai surname was used by Saiva-Vellalas. But it was also used by other groups. But the power itself remained only in the hands of Saiva-Vellalas. Of course Periyar is a documented anti-Brahmin, anti-Saiva-Vellala and racist. The other powerful group would Nattu-Kottai Chettiars but they never involved themselves in politics or government jobs. Kongu-Vellala, Nadars, Vanniars, Devars, Mutharayars who constitute about 50% of Tamilnadu population had no representation before independence and form the bulk of the Dravidian politicians today. Sriramwins 22:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Is Kamal Haasan a Periyar follower?

List of Notable followers

• Kamal Haasan

Please mention any reference to indicate that Kamal Haasan is a follower of Periyar.It might be noted that being an atheist need not necessarily mean one must be follower of Periyar Srikanth ^{\talk \contribs} 06:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes he is indeed a noted and open follower of Periyar [2]. There are quite a few references other than this too. ώЇЌĩ Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 10:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Was he Kannadiga?

I knew EVR always as a person from Telugu family and not as Kannadiga. This article although accepts that he is from a Telugu Naikar family, it says that his mother tongue is Kannada. Is there any reference to that? Thanks ώЇЌĩ Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 23:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Reference has been provided. He was from a family of Kannada speakers from Erode in Tamil Nadu. Erode district adjoins Karnataka. - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 22:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Parthi. I saw that yesterday and even the edit war tried by a fanatic. Anyways thanks for the reference. ώЇЌĩ Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 09:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

references

Kudos to Parthi for reducing fluff and nonsense on this page. I dug up an old version and pasted it at Talk:E._V._Ramasami_Naicker/A. I thought it may prove useful.Bakaman 02:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

In response to concerns of fancruft, I have placed the A version.Bakaman 23:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed sentence

I've removed this sentence:

"Growing anti-Brahmanism in Chennai provided a rationale for polarization of the lower castes in the DMK movement."

I'm not certain what this sentence is supposed to convey - is 'polarization' being used to infer 'radicalization'? Addhoc 18:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Name

I have never heard of this person, so I am certainly not any source as to what his name should be, but edit warring over it should stop, now, and discussion done here. Corvus cornix 21:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? And who is edit warring about his name? Sarvagnya 21:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

One of the users who has reverted has inserted some rather crude anti-Brahmin canards in the article. That same user is changing his given name to periyar. Peri + ayyar = Great noble. Its a nickname, not his name.Bakaman 21:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This, and several reverts like it. Corvus cornix 21:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

That was not only about a name. As Bakaman explains above, it was about reverting to a more stable, less crufty version to which the article was rolled back recently. Details can be found in the sections above. And in any case, I dont think I'm required to AGF with 'obvious sockpuppets' like gabbaelephant or whatever. Sarvagnya 22:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Tamil Nadu and Indian government call him Periyar lins added.Why do you object ? 81.208.163.214 23:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Because the tamil nadu government doesnt run wikipedia. Periyar is an honorific and on wikipedia, we dont use honorifics. Sarvagnya 00:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the entry on Mahatma Gandhi where Mahatma is honorific and not his actual name. Thanks ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 06:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

As do Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Sree Sree Shivakumara Swamiji, etc... Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 06:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The same is true of all actors Jayalalitha is Komanavalli ,Rajnikant is shivaji Rao and 99% of the Actors have not changed there names legally.193.61.107.150 09:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The article should be E.V. Ramasami Naicker, but it should mention that he was widely known as Periyar. It is a fact. My personal opinion apart, the article should reflect the reality. However I am totally against all the crufty glorification of him which some want to include. I won't support that. I must also warn Sarvagnya that deleting the fact that this man belonged to a family of Kannada speaker is tantamount to vandalism. Thanks Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 03:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Socks

We seem to have a sock problem as evidenced with 81.208.163.214 (talk · contribs) and 81.208.161.46 (talk · contribs). The user is filing erroneous 3RR reports (1 2) and such.Bakaman 00:45, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Balija Naidu

EVR was Balija Naidu. Their mother tongue is Telugu.Kumarrao 11:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, but do you have reference to back this claim? ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 11:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

---I am trying to search for one. It is a common knowledge in A.P., that Periyar was Balija Nayudu. I know this needs to be supported by a citation. Kumarrao 09:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Request for protection

A request has been made on WP:RPP to protect this page due to edit warring. I see the beginnings of an edit war but I also think there is the possibility that the dispute can be resolved without protecting the page. Please make an effort to do so or the page will wind up getting protected.

--Richard 07:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

POV is only displayed hence asked for protection and India expert

Example this is an opinion 1:the founder of the radical and sectarian denomination of the Dravidian Nationalist movement, innocuously called the Self-Respect Movement in the Indian state of Tamil Nadu.

IS a POV with no citations. Role in Vaikom Satyagraha is getting reverted through cited with good sources.

Affiliation with the Indian National Congress Again there is no citation and that he is left the movement because of the Aryan invasion theory again is an opinion does not say a word of it. Just to state a few. Similarly Justice Party ruled Madras for a long period from 1921-37 and only lost then to say they had little popular support is POV.

and so on Helloarise 11:41, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes I agree that page protection would help a lot with this article. Cheers! ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 13:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Why do you think that page protection would help? Would you feel this way if the version of the page that was protected was one that you disagreed with strongly? --Richard 17:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Talk:E._V._Ramasami_Naicker/A is a version that Sarvagnya (talk · contribs), Indianstar (talk · contribs), Venu62 (talk · contribs) and all other bondafide editors accepted. The only problem is with Helloarise (talk · contribs) and his socks.Bakaman 16:13, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The shorter and sourced version of the lead was introduced by me in April. If the longer version is reintroduced, could I suggest that sources are included? Thanks, Addhoc 16:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I accept addhoc's shorter intro.Bakaman 17:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC). Much like Hitler's intro has his dislikes in his intro so should this one.Bakaman 17:41, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Bakasuprman

Please do not engage in edit warring as you are doing.Please do not make me escalate the issue.Already the sock of Hkelker that Rumpelstiltskin223 did similar edits like you in this page.You guys will accept edits only if it is to your liking.Sorry to say that edits are accepted on basis of citations not basis of personal views like the one Addhoc secondly Venu62 (talk · contribs) and all users do not support you and your edit warring.You have been reported several times and been blocked. Look Venu62 put with references that Periyar's mother tongue is Kannada butSarvagnya (talk · contribs) reverts as also in the Carnatic music page.Sorry to say if you do not edits which are cited I will forced to escalate the matter.Please no more sock or meat of Hkelkar Adyarboy 18:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Simply no Good references

All others seem to support Periyar's viewpoint .Please go through them Baka before speaking All the references against Periyar are not online and clearly debatable

• Sara Dickey,"The politics of adulation in South India", Journal of Asian Studies Vol 52 No 2 (1993) pages 340-372
• ^ a b Lloyd I. Rudolph Urban Life and Populist Radicalism: Dravidian Politics in Madras The Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 20, No. 3 (May, 1961), pp. 283-297
• ^ Lloyd I. Rudolph and Suzanne Hoeber Rudolph, The Modernity of Tradition: political development in India P78,University of Chicago Press 1969, ISBN:0226731375
• ^ Singh, Yogendra,Modernization of Indian Tradition: (A Systemic Study of Social Change),Oriental Press 1974 page 167
• ^ C. J. Fuller,The Renewal of the Priesthood: Modernity and Traditionalism in a South Indian Temple P117, Princeton University Press 2003 ISBN:0691116571
• ^ a b c d e f Bergunder M, Contested Past: Anti-Brahmanical and Hindu nationalist reconstructions of Indian prehistory,Historiographia Linguistica, Volume 31, Number 1, 2004, pp. 59-104(46

The other is blog against Periyar by Rajeev.Adyarboy 18:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I have some concerns after going through some of the peer reviewed papers quoted. FYI I have access to most of the journals through Athens login.

• Starting with Sara Dickey’s 1993 paper. To start with the right title of the article is The Politics of Adulation: Cinema and the Production of Politicians in South India which is quoted wrong. It is a 32 pages long article which talks about votes mind set and quotes various examples including NTR, MGR and even touches a bit of North Indian politicians of Sunil Dutt and co. The word ELITE is referred to the previous sentence in which it denotes socioeconomic class and not elite caste as it would mean from the phrase used in the article, since the preceding sentence talks about Aryan race.
• Now coming to Rudolph’s paper, I wasn’t able to find where he talks about mass-migration of Brahmins. I may have missed it. Can someone point where it is mentioned please?
• Now the book Modernization of Indian Tradition, is of concern too since the page quoted (although not online) is obvious from the table of contents (which is online) talks about Gandhi. I do not want to comment on this for now. Will go find it in the library before I say further. But a clarification would be appreciated.
• Its kind of intriguing to find that the pages quoted once again are part of pages missing in the online version in the reference from the book The Renewal of the Priesthood: Modernity and Traditionalism in a South Indian Temple.

Let me make my stance clear that am not throwing allegations of dubious citation, but requesting a clarification. Thanks ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 20:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Deferring to the two admins who are active editors of this page

I notice that there are two admins (User:Blnguyen and User:Commander Keane) who are actively editing this page. Presumably they have a better grasp of the issues on this page and so I will defer to them any decisions regarding protection of this page. If you feel that these two editors are not editing in accordance with Wikipedia policies, feel free to leave me a message or post a message on the Administrator's noticeboard. --Richard 14:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't really have an interest in this article, I just fixed a cut and paste move. There does seem to be disagreement on where Periyar should redirect. Someone thinks it should go here (E. V. Ramasami Naicker), someone thinks to Periyar River and the other option (currently used) is that it goes to a disambiguation page. Probably the disambiguation page is the best option. A Requested moves discussion could be used to gauge consensus if someone wants to move stuff around again.--Commander Keane 04:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Title of this article

Why is the title of this article E. V. Ramasami Naicker when the lead says that his name was Ramaswami or Ramaswamy?

E. V. Ramaswami Naicker redirects here.

I think this title should be titled E. V. Ramaswami Naicker but I am not at all knowledgeable about this topic. Am I wrong?

If I am wrong, then the lead should be changed to reflect the title.

--Richard 18:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Balija Naidu

EVR was a Telugu Balija Naidu:

(http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0970-0293(199105%2F06)19%3A5%2F6%3C24%3AWQITDM%3E2.0.CO%3B2-I).

(http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0970-0293(199805%2F06)26%3A5%2F6%3C61%3ATSACNG%3E2.0.CO%3B2-N)

Unprotection is needed to make suitable changes.Kumarrao 08:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

With the links provided I think that is a suitable conclusion.Bakaman 16:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

It is common knowledge that he was of Telugu ancestry - except to some nitpicking trolls. It seems even a recent movie made on ramaswamy portrays him as a telugu. I also had seen it on The Hindu that he was telugu. Will fish that out when I find time. Sarvagnya 17:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Mother tongue Kannada

Please see below they say they his mother tongue is Kannada http://www.buddhiwadi.org/periyar.htm%7Cpublisher= buddhiwadi.org Several out of his biographers describe Kannada as his mother tongue.Erode his birth place is near Karnataka.Adyarboy 17:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I think as per the mother tongue is considered it has been made quite clear even earlier (acctually I had raised concerns of him not being a Kannada) that although he is from a Telugu origin family his mother tongue is Kannada. If this is too confusing Sarvagnya just needs to go towards the electronic city to the village called Yarandahalli to find Reddies of Telugu origin but with Kannada as mother tongue. ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 19:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Moreover note that the peer reviewed papers provided on authenticity of him being Balija Naidu just states him as Balija Naidu and not as Telugu Balija Naidu. Thanks. ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 19:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)