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Dubious kanji-related claim

Can anyone substantiate or refute the kanji-etymology related claim here. It would be especially helpful if someone would post the alleged pre-modernization version of the kanji 鬼. I would have assumed that if there was a kyūjitai version of 鬼 it would be noted in its wiktionary entry, which led me to doubt the claim. Thank you, Bradford44 13:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense, IMHO. That whole shtick is not present in my Kojien at the least, and I tend to trust Kojien over some Dojo's students. Also, if the originatior's name is Kuki Something, and the school's name is Kukishinryu, then the name translates to "Kuki's Gods' School", not "Nine Gods Spirit School". TomorrowTime 21:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I was bored at work, so I went roving throught the Kukishinryu page. Here's the part in Japanese, corresponding to the claim:

すなわち、九鬼の「九」は九字の“九”、「鬼」とは鬼神(おにがみ)の意で、これを“カミ”と読み、鬼の字の上に点（ノ）がない特殊な文字を当てる。したがって、本来、“クカミ”と称するのが正式であるが、今日では、徳川期以降の慣行によって“クキ”と訓(よ)んでいる。

The same part in English from the same site:

The "Ku" of Kuki stands for "Ku"(number nine in Japanese) of Kuji. "Ki" can be pronounced "Kami" if the Chinese character is pronounced in the Japanese way, meaning "Oni-gami"(holly spirits) as opposed to just "Oni"(evil spirits). "Ku-ki" should therefore be officially called "Ku-kami." However, it has been customarily called Kuki since the Edo period.

And the claim in Wiki:

九 "Ku" stands for “nine" in Japanese.

鬼 "Ki" as seen on the far left is actually an incorrect kanji for the name. It is supposed to be a kanji meaning "Kami" or god but it is now-long obsolete (compare above). This is because over the years the older character became lost due to the need to simplify/unify the Chinese Characters used in Japanese writing. So, the similar character of 鬼 (oni or demon) is used in its stead. This inadvertantly changes the meaning of the name to modern readers, who rightly believe that it reads "Nine Demons;" yet in fact the character was originally pronounced as "Oni-gami"(holy spirit) as opposed to "Oni" (evil spirits). The name "Ku-ki" is therefore actually "Ku-kami" yet, it has been customarily pronounced as "Kuki" since the Edo period.

Apart from the fact that the claim in the wiki article is an almost word by word copyvio, the claim also suffers from mild case of a clumsy translation. What the Japanese part says is that: "The 鬼 character was once used, but the implied reading for this character was 鬼神(おにがみ), making the proper school name “クカミ”(Kukami), but in time the implication got lost and the “クキ” (Kuki) reading took sway. To indicate the difference between the "regular" character for oni and the schools very own onigami reading, the little dash on top of the character is not used. The wiki article, in contrast, makes it seem like the character 鬼 was once the accepted character for kami that changed it's meaning somewhere in the meandering paths of time. Which is not true, and the fault for this misunderstanding lies in the English translation of the Japanese text on the Kukishinryu homepage. TomorrowTime 16:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, TommorrowTime, I really appreciate all the detailed work. Interestingly, the history of the school as told by Serge Mol in Classical Japanese Martial Arts (2001) is that (besides the school being founded like 200 years later than the date the article gives), that the founder was inspired by a dream of nine demons, and that the school's name is to be read literally. Bradford44 17:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't thank me, than my employer for having no real work for me to do :) TomorrowTime 16:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Project tags and assessment

Ohayo gozaimasu. Just wanted to give you a heads-up that as part of an article assessment drive for WikiProject Ships, I recently tagged all of the IJN and JMSDF ship disambiguation pages with the {{WikiProject Japan}} project banner as well as our normal {{WikiProject Ships}} and {{WPMILHIST}} banners. While I do not generally assess articles for projects of which I am not a member, the instructions at Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan#Article assessment were concise, so I went ahead and marked each of the dab pages as having a class and importance of NA. Please let me know if you have any questions, issues, or if I screwed it up. Domo arigato. --Kralizec! (talk) 01:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

You marked them as having a class of NA and an importance of NA? If so, then that would be incorrect. In general, the only articles marked as NA class are non-mainspace articles (such as this one). ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I assessed them incorrectly. I used NA for the class and importance based in part on its description and the fact that both Category:NA-importance Japan-related articles and Category:Non-article Japan-related pages have lots of member pages named "topic (disambiguation)." --Kralizec! (talk) 06:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Oops, I didn't notice that you had put them on disambiguation pages. That is a correct use. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Question about Hatamoto and Gokenin in the Edo period

Greetings. I recently create an article on Ichiki Shirō, a Japanese photographer from the 19th century. My sources say that he was a retainer of the famous daimyo Shimazu Nariakira, but they're not more specific on what kind of a retainer he was. I've listed him as a hatamoto, but that's really just my best guess. (All I know about Japanese feudalism, I read on Wikipedia.) So far as I can tell, all retainers from the Edo period were either hatamoto or gokenin. The gokenin weren't allowed an audience with the daimyo, but Ichiki photographed Shimazu and received personal instruction from him, so Ichiki couldn't have been a gokenin. Am I correct in my inference that he was a hatamoto? Thanks, – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 14:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

In my knowledge, Hatamoto and Gokenin are both under the retain of the Shogun himself. My understanding is that not all retainers were either the two since many, many Samurais were retained by Daimyos. I believe Ichiki was just a Samurai retained by the Shimazu family. --Hirohisat ^Kiwi 18:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The Hatamoto article begins "A hatamoto was a samurai in the direct service of the Tokugawa shogunate of feudal Japan." Hatamoto were samurai, were they not? – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 19:14, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Hatamotos were Samurais, but only a certain group of Samurais. No Hatamotos and Gokenin were retained by Daimyos, and Ichiki was retained by the Shimazu family, making him a ordinary Samurai who was not a Ronin --Hirohisat ^Kiwi 19:52, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Hatamoto were in the service of the shogunate. Hatamoto were samurai, but they were not the only samurai. Most samurai were in the service of daimyo, not the shogunate. A term for a samurai in the service of a daimyo is hanshi (藩士). Fg2 21:14, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Right. Since both hatamoto and gokenin referred to the retainers of the shogunate, if your source said that he was a retainer of the famous daimyo Shimazu Nariakira, he shouldn't be a hatamoto. He was a Shimazu retainer, that's all.

On he other hand, historically hatamoto had been retainers of any daimyo or high ranked samurais who served their lord directly ("under the banner"), it had been a generic term: each daimyo had their own hatamoto. So if the hatamoto doesn't say about its historic usage, it should be rewritten. --Aphaia 22:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your expertise. Someone already fixed my article for me. (Wikipedia's great that way.) – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 01:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the article! To a frequent contributor of content on Japan, and an occasional contributor on photography, it was especially interesting. Fg2 01:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

List of Japanese names

The page List of Japanese names has been growing for some months now without direction or focus. Just what is a Japanese name? Do Obaito, Oliana, Oodorii, and Orino (the four entries under "O") qualify? What are the criteria for inclusion -- would "Dweezil" be eligible for a similar list of American names? What is worth saving and what should be deleted from this list? Is there any aspect to this list that makes it more suitable for Wikipedia than the earlier lists that were transferred to Wiktionary (see Appendix:Japanese given names and Appendix:Japanese given names (2)) and then deleted from Wikipedia? Fg2 01:58, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

To me, this list is pointless. It could seriously go on forever. I prefer having List of Japanese last names. --Hirohisat ^紅葉 02:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It's bad enough to be funny, but it's too long to be funny. Since it seems to be intended as a superset of another list previously disposed of in view of the impossibility of anything like completion, it seems prime AfD material. I've been reluctant to take it to AfD in view of the way it seems to provide a fairly harmless outlet for the editorial urges of various editors who seem to know even less about Japanese names than I do. Moreover, it would probably be sent off to Wiktionary (Wikipedia's prime dumping ground for stunningly incompetent attempts at "dicdefs" and worse), and I don't have the heart to subject Wiktionary's editors to it. -- Hoary 05:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh wow, what a mess! What's with the surnames, are those supposed to be in as well? There's a duplication at Reiko and Leiko, there's bogus names (like Phi), there's gods' and folklore beings' names (does Kelpie count as an Irish name?), there's names from anime (like Bankotsu and Jaken)... If this list should remain, it needs some serious work. But I don't really see a reason to keep it. I'd vote for deletion on an AfD. TomorrowTime 07:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm wondering if it would be good to create categories (Category:Japanese surnames, Category:Japanese female given names, Category:Japanese male given names) for any articles which exist which are not disambiguation pages. Thoughts? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 17:15, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, categories are the usual solution to ever expanding lists. --Hirohisat ^紅葉 17:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It's been deleted after a full Articles for Deletion debate. Fg2 03:27, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Hundreds of photographers with names ass forwards, and related worries

In a series of about eight hundreds edits from 1 to 2 October, my learned friend User:Polbot created about three hundred substubs about Japanese photographers. (Sample of a substub for a dead photographer of the seashore, seascapes, family, the countryside, still-lifes, etc; sample of a substub for a hugely different living photographer and video photographer of insects and other wildlife; notice the similarity between articles on the two.) And created accompanying talk pages linking to this Project, redirects, etc.

I guessed that this extraordinary feat was related to this page, and I'm told that I'm right.

That page lists the three-hundred plus entries in a paperback Japanese-language encyclopedia of Japanese photographers. The book itself of course lists people in アイウエオ order, showing their names in kanji; it also shows their names in hiragana. The list here is in the form:

• 1. AKIMOTO Keiichi, 1930-1979 (秋元啓一, あきもと けいいち)
• 2. AKIYAMA Shotaro, b. 1920 (秋山庄太郎, あきやま しょうたろう)

etc. Note that in roman form the names are the right way around (in en:WP terms, the wrong way around for those photographers unfortunate enough to have been born after 1867) but are stripped of macrons or any substitute for them (though a name such as 飯田 is still "Iida").

Polbot zapped the surplus capitals and derived "Akiyama Shotaro" and so forth from this long list, and created (non-) articles from these.

I'm no fan of substubs and my first reaction was to think of some way to delete the whole damn lot. No idea came to mind, and I then thought that they might be beneficial if in the long term they prompted en:WP's population of Japanese-photography-interested editors -- a group consisting of Pinkville, me, and, um . . . well anyway Pinkville and me -- to increase our production of articles that were of at least some interest. So the next phase was to get a grip of what there was. Here's my first bash at this. The latest is here.

Note something written at the top: Names are in Hepburn romanization, and are in the original order, complete with macrons -- following the lead of the single most authoritative and comprehensive work in English: The History of Japanese Photography, ed. Anne Wilkes Tucker, et al. (New Haven: Yale University Press, 2003; ISBN 0-300-09925-8). But actually they're not: they're in the original order thanks mostly to this fellow and a bot; I warmly approve of this order and I found a first-rate English-language book from a first-rate publisher as ex post facto justification for it.

Putting all the names in the right order -- renaming Akimoto Keiichi as Keiichi Akimoto, etc etc -- would take an awfully long time for somebody who, like me, lacks a bot. And I'd particularly dislike doing the work as in my mind it would be a distinct change for the worse.

Meanwhile, I've started the job of renaming them with more moras: Akiyama Shotaro to Akiyama Shōtarō, etc. This is boring enough. I suppose I could have renamed that just as easily to Shōtarō Akiyama, but I didn't have the heart to degrade it in this way.

If the names of those photographers born after 1867 must be inverted to follow this silly bit of MoS, I'm too lazy to object. But I'm not going to spend any of my time on making the change. Their names aside, I do think that all the substubs are on people who merit articles and thus that the substubs merit elaboration. However, I can't imagine that more than a handful will be made any time soon. Should I just wait for the inevitable prod notices, ignore these prod notices, and watch the links turn red again?

Really, I dunno what to do with this lot. Though of course I'd be delighted if anything about this bizarre situation inspires any reader here to participate in the enterprise of turning these substubs into at least halfway decent articles (however titled). -- Hoary 06:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I suppose all of the various versions would be need to be created as redirects at some point anyway. You could just redirect them all (or whichever you'd like) to a List of Japanese photographers and tag the redirects as {{R with possibilities}}. Dekimasuよ! 06:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the idea, which has considerable merit. Yes, this could be moved to List of Japanese photographers and reedited for that purpose; and I wouldn't mind if all those substubs were redirected. But it would mean turning about four hundred into redirects: not only the substubs but also the redirects to them. I'm not a bot and I don't have a bot. Feel free to call me lazy, but I'm not going to do the work. -- Hoary 07:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Since the articles were all started by a bot from the list, they don't contain any information beyond what's in the list. So it doesn't matter if the articles are deleted; the information is still on Wikipedia in the list (see also ja:日本近代写真の成立と展開). For that reason I'd say it's safe to ignore the deletion proposals. If you later want to create a longer article with more substance, and the bot's has been deleted, you could start from scratch, or perhaps the bot could create the article anew for you, or you could just store a model article in your user space and fill in the details as necessary, then add new content. All in all, I think these do little (probably no) harm, and some good: even the words "was a renowned Japanese photographer" convey information some readers will not have known. These are good opportunities for editors to improve, a sort of "to-do list" with a framework in place. And for anyone not inclined to add material to them, benign neglect is my prescription. Fg2 07:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds good. Unfortunately I have a certain gut reaction to PRODs, so my hackles were raised when I saw this edit, in which some no doubt well-intentioned editor [rolls eyes] dubbed Domon a "non-notable photographer". (Uh, hello Mr Prodder? Care to look up Domon in your copy of The Oxford Companion to the Photograph?) Which in turn led me to create a fourth-rate article on Domon (good, or anyway better than the substub) but curse Wikipedia (bad). -- Hoary 07:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't see an alternative to "benign neglect" in this case either. And while pumping up however many of these stublettes as we can, one might consider the overall task as a sort of Biography Drive, I suppose. As for Mr. Ken (that must be his family name, right?)... I'd love to see someone put a non-notable tag next to, say, Mr. Ansel.... In fact. I'd love to see WP not used as merely a means to inflate some people's sense of self-importance outside their fields of expertise. Pinkville 12:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Anyone here own any (very) old copies of Famitsu magazine?

I'm looking for a source on an old video game called Knight Lore which, while popular on home computers in Europe, received a sub-par Famicom conversion released only in Japan. This was released in December 1986 and so could have been reviewed or otherwise covered in an early issue of Famitsu. I've tried searching the web for an archive of Famitsu reviews or review scores but have found nothing, or at least nothing in English. :) So if anyone has some issues from around this time and is willing to take a look that would help me a lot. In fact, any other magazines that covered it would be just as useful. Cheers, Miremare 21:06, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Gotonpo - Ninja Elemental Paths

Hi all. In the process of assessing articles for the project, I came across Gotonpō, a stub which briefly describes five paths of ninja arts based on the classic elements. Though the article does explicitly admit that these are fantasy (fictional) constructions and not true historical arts used by real ninja, it does not provide any details as to which particular media make use of this concept, nor the more important detail of where this concept originated and which manga or anime series or other media source(s) actually make use of these specific terms.

I have not formally nominated the article for deletion, but would welcome opinions and suggestions at Talk:Gotonpō. Thanks. LordAmeth 14:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Hōnen Shōnin: proposed move

Hōnen Shōnin should be moved to Hōnen. Shōnin functions like "saint" and is not part of the name. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Clerical names #4 (Saints). I tried to do the move but it was blocked by an existing redirect. Fg2 11:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Done. LordAmeth 01:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks! I think I updated all the double redirects from articles. (I didn't do the talk, user, and wikipedia namespace pages.) Fg2 02:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, geez. I should've done that too. Sorry. LordAmeth 00:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I can ask an admin to do a simple page move but I can't ask you to change a couple dozen links! That's my job. Unless admins have a magic button that can accomplish it... Fg2 01:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Omoiyari Yosan

The article Omoiyari Yosan could use some loving care. Anyone interested? Fg2 05:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The article could use a single bullet at the back of the head (with no prejudice about the fate of an entirely different successor). It's in Babelfishspeak and cites not a single source. (Still, it is concise. Could we send its creator to Wolfe City, Texas?) Somebody with reliable, intelligible sources could create a good article. (Not me, I'm afraid.) -- Hoary 05:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Wolfe City, Texas -- 180 kilobytes? for fewer than two thousand residents? That must be a record of some sort. Fg2 05:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I added the Ja WP link. Sorry but I'm not interested. Oda Mari (talk) 05:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Request assistance

Hi,

I'd like to request assistance in monitoring editing behaviour at Eugenics in Showa Japan. The page is currently undergoing edit-war like behaviour between User:Flying Tiger and User:Azukimonaka.

User:Azukimonaka's edits appear to be motivated by right-wing historical revisionism that seeks to divorce Eugenics in Imperial Japan from war and politics, and described more as a public health issue.

User:Flying Tiger does appear to be trying to keep things accurate, but does have a history of inserting edits that portray Japan in a less-than-favourable historical light (albeit usually with sources).

This situation is not helped by Azukimonaka's poor English level and the article's overeliance on Japanese-language references that make verification hard for other editors to intervene.

I have tried to NPOV the page by removing most unsourced commentary from the article, but have been mostly unable to work with Azukimonaka's editing style.

I would appreciate any help from members of this wiki-project who most likely have knowledge of Japanese modern history and Japanese language so can assist in assuring a verifiably accurate article is generated.

Sankyu.--ZayZayEM 04:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Request amendment or deletion - Civil Service of Japan

Civil Service of Japan page still refers to Koizumi Government and to a non-privatized Post Office.

220.233.229.140 15:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. You can edit almost any article on Wikipedia by just following the Edit link at the top of the page. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, because wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. If you need additional help, check out our getting started page or ask the friendly folks at the Teahouse. Fg2 21:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Hoax?

The improbably titled article Atsuko Sarina, P makes dubious claims... one of which is that at age 18 Atsuko will be the youngest swimmer ever to compete in the Olympics. (Kyoko Iwasaki was 14 years old when she won an Olympic gold medal in swimming.) Does anyone else wonder if this is a hoax? Fg2 01:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard of [[Thailand Prefecture|Thailand]] before. ssepp^(talk) 09:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention the fact that the kanji given actually read "Hamakuchi Yoshihiro", a decisevely male name. Destroy as hoax. TomorrowTime 18:58, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Battle(s) of Komaki and Nagakute

We have three articles: Battle of Komaki, Battle of Nagakute, and a new Battle of Komaki and Nagakute. What's the best way to deal with these? Fg2 01:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I would say to transfer any useful text from the Battle of Komaki and Nagakute to the other two articles and then slap a speedy delete tag on it. If you don't have time to do that, just post two merge tags on the Battle of Komaki and Nagakute pointing to the other two articles and someone will get around to transferring the information and then deleting it eventually Cla68 09:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge and delete destroys the edit history, which is required for the GFDL. It might be better to merge and redirect, and note the page names of the merger in the edit summaries, to comply with the GFDL. (Help:Merging_and_moving_pages#Selective_paste_merger). ssepp^(talk) 10:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The article "Prayer"

The article Prayer has been nominated for Peer Review. It's weak in information on Japanese Buddhism, and the only mention of Shinto is in a photo. The article, the talk page, and the peer review are good places to insert material and sources, discuss directions for the article, and make suggestions. Possible topics include prayer by adherents of multiple religions or sects, prayer in sects as varied as Nichiren and Ōbaku and Shingon Mikkyō, prayer in present-day and in historic Shinto, the types of things people pray for at Shinto shrines (abundant harvest, good marriage, safe birth, success in studies...), ema, omikuji, hyakudo mairi, Jizō statues, State-sponsored religion (including Kokubun-ji and Gokoku-ji, the Ise Shrine, State Shinto etc.), recitation and copying of sutras, yamabushi, the monastic tradition, new religions; the blessing of automobiles, the fishing fleet, the sumo ring. The Ainu bear worship. Osorezan. Okinawan religion. Fg2 12:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Kimi ga Yo protocol

Can anyone find me a page or two of what people should do when Kimi ga Yo is played? An example of what I am talking about is at The_Star-Spangled_Banner#Protocol. Thanks. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

In my experience, which can't be used as a reference here, people just stood politely and listened, or they sang along. No saluting or hand-over-heart. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 05:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I think I heard an announcement when they played the anthem before the awards ceremony of a recent sumo tournament suggesting what to do, but I can't remember the actual suggestion. You might ask the sumo project or people who edit articles on it, or watch the last day of the upcoming tournament (at 5:30, not the usual 6:00). Fg2 05:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

This is probably not a reliable source, but I think in the novel Norwegian Wood, people just stand and watch the flag being raised. --Kyoko 06:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I tried to find something in the 1999 law too and I could not mind much. I will probably just leave it out of the article (unless yall want to put it in). User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Article needing attention: Japanese superstitions

This article is being considered for deletion (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Japanese superstitions) but it is being improved during the process. The article has potential but is in dire need of attention. If you are knowledgeable on this topic, please help save this article.--12 Noon 15:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Mattya

Yes, the twin brother of our favorite SPA is back. Keep your eyes on matcha, maccha, etc. Yawn! -- Hoary 00:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear... I'll put the article on my watch list. TomorrowTime 08:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)