Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hinduism/Vaishnavism

Vaishnavism wikiproject editors and admins

• Any thoughts on the need for admins in Wikiprojects Hinduism and Vaishnavism would be appreciated. There is a request for admin by User:Zeuspitar at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/zeuspitar. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Vaishnavism's relation to Vedic religion

is there somewhere online where there is a good, detailed, outsider's explanation of the beliefs and principles of the Hare Krishna faith? I am trying to see if they believe in the Christian God, and anything else. What I don't want is a bunch of words that take me ten minutes to pronounce. I just want to know what they stand for, and do not stand for. thanks P.R.

Try looking at the Hare Krishna article at International_Society_for_Krishna_Consciousness

thank you, i'll check it out P.R.

THe Christian God? Dude... they believe in Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As Hindus, they believe everyone prays to the same God, though they feel that God is ultimately Krishna. --LordSuryaofShropshire 03:10, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

Technically, the Hare Krishnas are not Hindu--they're followers of the Vaisnava philosophy. The devotees are only interested in satisfying Krishna's (God's) senses. They will only accept food which has first been offered to the Lord. Similarly they are always chanting the Hare Krishna maha-mantra. Ultimately, they are following the teachings of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who started the Hare Krishna movement. -D.

Vaishnavism is a VEDIC philosophy and hinduism is psudo name for vedic religion. Vedic religion is very old and is brought forward by aryans.:)

First, Vaishnava means devotee of VISHNU...not a vibhava/avatara form. ONLY ISKON/Gaudiya people chant the Krishna maha-mantra. The Original Vaishnavas chant the ashta-mantra or eight syllable mantra to Narayana, the dvaya mantra or two sentence mantra for surrendering to Narayana, the charam mantra and the Vishnu sahastranama stotram as commanded by the acharyas like Ramanujacharya and those before him. Only the ISKON/Gaudiyas follow Caitanya maha-prabhu, The Original Vaishnavas follow Ramanujacharya, Vedanta desika and the Alwars. All of the different segments of the Hindu religion;Vaishnavas, Shavites, the Ganesha devotees....ALL throughly follow the original Vedas, Upanishads, Laws of Manu,etc.,etc. If they are following the Vedic shastras and the principles...then, they are VEDIC! While ISKON/Gaudiyas doesnt follow the Original four Vedas, Upanishads, Laws of Manu and etc....the Vedic scriptures! They only follow the Isha-Upanishads, Itihasas scriptures, and their own Sampradayam books like the Caitanya caramrita. So, who's Vedic? The term Hindu, is a term use for all of the different religions and denominations in India that are suppose to follow the Vedic shastra (Holy books) and principles...then, they are all Vedic! Vaishnavas are only a part of the greater spectrum of Hinduism. Again...Vaishnava means...Devotee of Vishnu! Maybe Krishnava would be a better name for ISKON/Gaudiyas.Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 16:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I believe that Zeuspitar has asked some good questions above concerning: "who is Vedic?," "who is "Vaishnava?," and "how Vedic is Vaishnavism?" Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 17:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The best pages I can kind on the subject are a few pages in the Encyclopedia Britannica online, and our own articles on the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, its founder A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and the group he came from, Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and its founder Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. I think that, as the ISKCON is described in the west as being a variant form of Bhakti yoga, in the eyes of most westerners, and by Wikipedia:Naming conventions, it can fairly be called "Hindu" by those not familiar with it, that word being the one used in the west to lump together all such faiths, accurately or not. Many Westerners are less familiar with the Vedas, or the word "Vedic", so "Hindu" is probably the word they know best. I do know that several members of the movement do not particularly like being called "Hindus", preferring a more specific, detailed term. The same can be said for several groups started in the Reformation who object to being called "Protestant". But we try to describe things in the most easily accessible way possible, and that is the term westerners are most familiar with.

Regarding whether they believe in the Christian god, they believe that all true descriptions of God are in fact descriptions of Krishna or one of his avatars. Several groups do describe Jehovah as an avatar of one of Krishna's forms and Jesus as his son, and, according to Religious perspectives on Jesus#Hinduism, the members of ISKCON are among them. I hope that makes a little sense. John Carter (talk) 18:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

"how Vedic is Vaishnavism?" See, with Sri Vaishnavas or Ramanujacharya Sampradayam (Sri Sampradayam is the original-foundation group for Vaishnavism) we follow ALL of the Shastra; the four Vedas, the Upanishads, the Laws of Manu and etc...first. Then, the itihasas like the Ramayana, the Maha-Bharata/Bhagavad-gita and ALL the Sattvic Puranas,...not just one purana. We also have other books that stem from shastra like the Sri Bhasya which is a commentary on the Vedanta sutras and the Ratna stotra. The books help lay-people to understand certain principles that are found the vedas. Original Vaishnavism is based totally on ALL of the Vedic Shastra or scriptures. This was the standard for Vaishnavas from time in memorial to the time of Ramanujacharya. After Ramanujacharyas passing, there were, between the 12th to 16th centuries, a number of people braking off and forming their own groups or sampradayams and proclaiming the supreiority of their particular ista-deva or belief. To be "Vedic" and follow "Vedic principles" means to strictly follow All of the Four Vedas, the Upanishads, Laws of Manu and standards and principles within them. The standard for Vaishnavas originally was uphold the dharma or duties for brahmanas specified in the Vedas and cultivating our love for Narayana through mediation on Vishnu,chanting of prayers and studying the scriptures. For ISKON/Gaudiyas; they only their particular translation of the Isha-Upanishad, Itihasas texts and their own group books like the caitanya caratamrita and etc. They have cast away with the duties and performances that required for Vaishnava brahmanas or priest for singing, dancing and playing on drums for God, but, they say that they are above being brahmanas and the same time state that they are special brahmanas that only sing, dance and play on drums for God. It is perposterous to condemn other groups for not being "Vedic philosophy"...and at the same time, not follow the original Vedic scriptures and Vedic principles themselves. The Shavites follow strictly to the vedas...are they not "Vedic". To them, Shiva is the one God, and feel that they can prove it through scripture. Are they less "Vedic".Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 19:06, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

To John Carter; "all true descriptions of God are in fact descriptions of Krishna or one of his avatars"...first, this is ONLY a ISKON/Gaudiya belief that all avataras come from Krishna. This is not supported by any of the original four Vedas, the main-original Upanishads, laws of Manu,other original scriptures or the original acharyas of Vaishnavism before the advent of the brake-off groups in 12th to 16th centuries. In fact, they state that Narayana/Vishnu is the first. The sentiment that you express comes from ISKON sources and is particular to that group.Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 19:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

John Carter said..."I think that, as the ISKCON is described in the west as being a variant form of Bhakti yoga"...For Vaishnavas, during the time of Ramanujacharya and before Him. Bhakti Yoga was performing all of Ashtanga yoga...but, LOVENLY meditate on Vishnu/Narayana. To this day,Sri Vaishnavas/Sri Sampradayam, because we follow the Vedas, Upanishads and the original acharyas, we Lovenly meditate on Vishnu within you is a main part of sadhana or daily spiritual practices. The original Vaishnava "Bhakti Yoga" is Lovenly meditating on Vishnu within your heart and Soul...period.Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 19:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

What I thought I had said was that ISKCON, which holds (somewhat uniquely) all incarnations of God come ultimately from Krishna, thus holds that all incarnations of any of the gods which come from him, which includes Vishnu and several others, are thus also incarnations, ultimately, of Krishna. And by using the capital "G" I was trying to indicate that I was referring specifically only to those instances when "God" is used as an almost proper name, and not referring to individual "gods" like Brahma, and, conceivably, Apollo, Horus, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, etc., none of whom are given the same status as Jehovah, Vishnu/Krishna (or Krishna/Vishnu, whichever), Allah, occasionally Shiva, and the like. And, in response to Zeuspitar, it is important for us all to recognize that almost all the content, particularly in the English language wikipedia, regarding this subject will be read by individuals who have little if any familiarity with any of the religions of India. We are always supposed to write the articles for individuals who are not particularly already familiar with the subject. And, while I acknowledge that the original Vaishnavism may be different, as per wikipedia guidelines regarding naming and writing articles, we are supposed to use the most readily understood and used terms. Gaudiya Vaishnavism not only incorporates the word "Vaishnavism" in its name, but also bears, barring the differentiation on the exact identity of the ultimate god, all the other characteristics as well. I might point out to you that other articles, including Roman Catholic Church, which is formally and officially named "Catholic Church", face the same problem of having their name "misused" by others and wikipedia's content changed on that basis. However, we should not assert any POV regarding the usage of a word, in this case "Vaishnavism", including that of the originators of a word, over that of any reliably verifiable other in our content. As per WP:NAME, Gaudiya Vaishnavism is what that entity is known as, so it can and should be referred to with that word. The article Vaishnavism can and probably should go into some detail as to why some individuals who use the word believe it is used incorrectly in this instance, like is the case with Messianic Judaism, but that doesn't mean that the word should not be used at all. If, however, you believe that the scope of this group should not include Gaudiya Vaishnavism, you are free to propose that, much like Messianic Judaism's content is not necessarily covered by WikiProject Judaism. John Carter (talk) 20:11, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that "Vaishnavism" is an often-misused term. I think that this workgroup can cover Gaudiya Vaishnavism as a separate sect of Vaishnavism (as they do actually worship Lord Vishnu, as Krishna) but not necessarily ISKCON. There are many Gaudiya Vaishnavas who don't consider themselves part of ISKCON or share some of ISKCON's other views. Also, while many Gaudiya Vaishnavas are known as Hindus, ISKCON has been compared to a cult within Hinduism, though I think labeling ISKCON as a cult is a little extreme, given the word "cult"'s negative connotations. (Of course, the word "cult" as used in academic circles is not necessarily negative.) --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 15:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Please expand a little. What do you mean by stating, "this workgroup can cover Gaudiya Vaishnavism as a separate sect of Vaishnavism (as they do actually worship Lord Vishnu, as Krishna) but not necessarily ISKCON.?"

Not all Gaudiya Vaishnavas are part of ISKCON, though I suspect that the majority of them are. --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 05:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Concerning The Four Vaishnava sampradayas listed on the Vaishnavism article, are you saying Gaudiya Vaishnavism should be seperate from all four? From what I have read, ISKCON and other Gaudiya Vaishnavas believe that they are part of the, "Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya sampradaya." See, The Sampradaya of Sri Caitanya, (a dialogue btw Ravindra Svarupa Dasa and Satyaraja Dasa). Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 17:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

With the Gaudiyas believing that they are a part of Brahma-madhava-gaudiya sampra....the Gaudiyas main acharya; Caitanya maha-prabhu formulated the idea of the "achinta beda-beda tattva". Some how...it is different from the Dwaita sadanta of Madhavacharya. The Gaudiya formed their own Sampradayam; which stressed the "achinta" idea, playing on drums and singing their Maha-mantra and casting aside all Vedic procedures and rules of engaugement as perscribed in the Laws of Manu. From what I understand, the Madhava Sampradayam, even though the dwaita is only partially backed by scripture...they follow the Vedic scriptures to the tee in other areas.Where as the Gaudiyas they follow....their own things. They cast aside almost all pre-itihasas scriptures; with the exception of the isha-upanishad. And, follow their own books...mostly written during and after the schism years after Ramanujacharya, between the 12th and 16th centuries. All which, remarkably, prove the notion that Sri Krishna is the Para-form of all Vishnu avataras. All scriptures at the time of and before Ramanujacharya and Madhavacharya; stated...plainly, that Vishnu is the Para-form. Then,...all of a sudden, in the 13th to 15 hundreds Krishna avatara is the supreme God of Vaishnavas, with books that miraculously appear to prove this point. Plainly, Madhavacharya Believed in Vishnu and following the original Vedas. While the Gaudiyas...are the opposite, to say nicely. Also, the Gaudiyas are a "brake-off" group of the Madhavacharya/Brahma Sampradayam. And, the Madhavacharya/Brahma Sampradayam "broke-off" from the Ramanujacharya/Sri Sampradayam....brake-off groups..from brake-off groups..from brake off group thinking that they know better than the previous group before. Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 20:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

While the Gaudiya Vaishnavas like to believe that they are a part of the "Brahma-madhava-gaudiya sampradaya", many outside of the sect do not believe the same thing. Many consider them to be a break-off subdivision of Vaishnavism, although many of the followers of the sect disagree. Their "own books" are really the original books with their own commentaries and interpretations based on their beliefs, which are often not completely accepted by other subdivisions or sects of Vaishnavism. To be fair, it is safe to say that it is disputed whether they are a part of the "Brahma-madhava-gaudiya sampradaya" or not. --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 05:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Template:VishnuAvatars

I and another editor have contradictory views about inclusion of Balarama in the template. Balarama is considered as one of the Dasavatar in southern-india, and Buddha is dropped. While in north-india buddha is included and Balarama excluded. My suggestion include BOTH as per WP:NEUTRAL balancing both views. The suggestion is drop "Balarama" as per "majority opinion". See discussion on my talk. References for Balarama being included in the 10 avatars:

• Britannia
• English-Tamil dictionary
• The Religion of the Hindus By Kenneth W Morgan, D S Sarma p.55 mentions both Buddha and Balarama and delete Krishna
• Iconography of Balarama By N.P. Joshi p.25

--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:05, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Redtigerxyz's suggestion that both Balarama and Buddha be included per WP:NEUTRAL. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 14:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree also Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 15:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

KRSNa and BalarAma should be included under one section of daSAvatAra as they form a pair, same as RAma-LakSmaNa. At least it should be presented as an option.Wikidas (talk) 20:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikidas has made a good proposal, I agree with it. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 22:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I oppose the pairing of Krishna/Balarama as the template is giving the sense Krishna Or(/) Balarama is considered an avatar, which is not generally the case. Also, Balarama has an equal status as a DAsaavatar with Krishna, which included. When not included, he plays a subordinate role as Shesha's avatar. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 05:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I also oppose the pairing for the same reasons as Redtigerxyz. --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 15:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

One has to accept that 11 dasavataras is not acceptable. Please provide an alterantive proposal to pairing Krsna with his Brother. —--Wikidas (talk • contribs) 16:11, 16 March 2008 (UTC)</s.mall>

Include 11 Avatars and Note explaining why 11 avatars are included, that can be hidden.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 03:57, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

And that is serious I guess.. (it okay for a page BUT not okay for a template). Its as as easy to explain that KRSNa and BalarAma are infact different personalities and keep the number at 10 as per title of the template. Wikidās14:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Redtigerxyz's proposal, since although it may seem admittedly strange to put a note like that on a template and not a page, it is more correct. We didn't put Lakshmana and Rama on the same template because Lakshmana is not considered a full avatar, and so similarly, as not everyone believes that Balarama is not a full avatar, and as Krishna and Balarama are not the same, they should be kept separate with a note explaining why there are 11 avatars listed when, in fact, "Dasha Avatar" (the name given to Vishnu's avatars) means "10 avatars". By the way, I advise everyone to not indent their posts too much, as the columns for writing what you want to say are getting too small! --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 23:58, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Suggested merge for Lalita with Tripura Sundari article

• It has been suggested that the Lalita page be merged with the Tripura Sundari page. My thoughts are that the two pages describe and represent two different subjects. Lalita is about a gopi and an important personality concerning Krishna centered Vaishnavism. Also, the Tripura Sundari article is about a tantric goddess. These, in my opinion, are two different personalities requiring two different articles. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 22:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Lalita be transformed into a disambig. The current be split into 2: Lalita (gopi) and the other part be merged into this article.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 05:29, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that since the two are different personalities the article to be split and Lalita to refer to gopi Lalita. Link for Goddess Lalita should be clearly placed for redirection.Wikidas (talk) 16:06, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I have started working on the Lalita (gopi) article. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:05, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Redirected Lalita to Tripura Sundari as a web-search [1] of Lalita, gives more results about Lalita the tantric goddess, rather than the gopi.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 14:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Why will we consider google to be a proof? I guess if Indira Gandhi name was Lalita instead of Indira, you will get more of her. Google does not provide a proof.Wikidās 14:12, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose merger and Support disambiguation and redirection - why combine both articles when they are different? --Shruti14 ^{t c s}

Advertisements posing as articles

• I have been tagging articles related to Vaishnavism for the wikiproject. I have come across numerous advertisements for books, CDs, etc. I have nominated two such articles for deletion and think this is a good point to pause. These two articles are, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henry Doktorski and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Srila Prabhupada: The Prominent Link. Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:10, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there any way to stop it? Besides Afd? Wikidās^{t- c- s-}21:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a good question. I wont nominate anything until there is some consensus. Articles like Henry Doktorski are basically advertisements BUT they may contain some notability. Per Doktorski, he has recorded one album on independent label. This might be enoough for notability (although I disagree), BUT this should not make room for eBay advertisements and personal websites as the Henry Doktorski article does. Using an article to push eBay merchandise does not make for a good article. Unfortunately, I think there is a lot more of these types of advertisement out there. Some pages are complete advertisements and some are just mostly advertisement. Anyhow, thanks for responding Wikidas, I am sure there will be more to talk about. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:44, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear Ism Schism, I agree with you on this subject. If there is any thing I can do to help...please let me know.Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 05:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree as well, and so if the articles' subjects are notable enough, they should be kept, and if not, deleted. By the way, this is slightly off-topic, but is there a tag for marking articles that appear to be extensions of personal websites or ads? --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 00:02, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Krishna

The article states that traditionally Krishna is worshipped as an avatar of Vishnu (Vishnu is considered the Supreme God by the Vaishnava schools).

Is there are difference in the procedures of worship of avatar vs. worship of avatari? If not its just a consideration of theory and practice of worship will not change if one is avatara or the source of the avataras.Wikidās 02:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

By "avatari" did you mean 'source of the avatars'? If you did, then it depends on the sect of Hinduism/Vaishnavism. Many state that knowing the difference between Vishnu and His avatars is important, and that it is Vishnu who will ultimately grant a worthy person Moksha. Others state that as most or all avatars are 'full' avatars (meaning that they are completely the same as Vishnu, and do not only possess only a part of Vishnu's qualities and attributes), it does not matter. Nearly all, however, believe that the worship of the avatar is the same as the worship of Vishnu. --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 00:10, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

By the way, Gaudiya Vaishnavas believe that Krishna is the source of avatars, not Vishnu. See the article for their viewpoints on the subject. --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 00:11, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I absolutely agree and back you 100%. We need more non-ISKON/Gaudiyas Hindu/Vaishnavas to be saying these things on Wikipedia.Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 00:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It does seem that many Wikipedia articles do have a slight ISKCON inclination... but hopefully that will be taken care of so that those articles will have a more complete Vaishnava and/or Hindu view. Many people in the Western world, especially in the US have a misconception that ISKCON is the representative of Hinduism, which isn't true. --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 03:48, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thelemic/Crowley section on the Krishna article

I wanted to ask who put the Alester Crowley section on the Krishna article? This section is just incoherent, philosophical bumbo-jumbo babble!!! I lived in austin texas and live in L.A. (these two places had the largest population of Crowley followers in america)..I have had almost 15 years of experience with these Thelemites! First off, Yes, they might mention Krisna...but, their practices, their philosophy are absolutely Adharmic and Avedic!! They have taken a mixture of Black tantra, Crowleys speculations on various spiritual traditions and made some kind of tama guna, asuric, speculative, concocted, IMMORAL form of so-called "Spiritual" practices that is definetly against the Vedic religion. He was a drug user and questionable sexual practices that involved so-called sexual "magical" ceremonies. Every one who is a practioner of the Vedas should be appalled by the disgusting practises and immorality of these "Thelemites". Their beliefs are absolutely against the Vedas. Some followers, I know for a fact, perform magic rites with sexual body fluids and try to commune with spirits and etc...not too Vedic! And, there is a qoute in our beautiful Sri Krishna article from their so-called "Aeon of horus" savior - Crowley?! Can we please take this out immediately. Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 01:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Aleister Crowley's Thelema (As well as his personal) views are far away from Hindu views in almost every aspect. He did canonize Krishna, however. I am currently debating whether this information (about the canonization) is notable enough for the article, and I'm not sure that it should stay. The Thelema followers do not totally recognize Krishna, only Crowley did. There are other reasons for the information not needing placement in the article about Krishna, which I will not go into detail here. Any thoughts or opinions on this? --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 03:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Every one SHOULD study the articles on Aleister Crowley and Thelema!!! Especially on the daily practices of "Thelemites"!!! They engauge in "sex magic" that involves masterbation and hetero and homosexual techniques!!! I will be taking out the Thelemic/Crowley section to the Krishna article within the next two days...on saturday 22nd 2008. Who in the world put the Crowley section on the Krishna article? I have a feeling that some one from a certain "group" put that information into the article!Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 06:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC)