Talk:Afghanistan

State of Afghanistan emerged in 1880

According to Anwar-ul-Haq Ahady (a Pashtun himself and the head of Afghan Mellat) the state of Afghanistan emerged in 1880 under Abdur Rahman Khan, not during the Ahmad Shah Durrani era as this article claims. See Ahady's article:

The Decline of the Pashtuns in Afghanistan, Anwar-ul-Haq Ahady, Asian Survey, Vol. 35, No. 7. (Jul., 1995), pp. 621-634.

Why is Afghani not listed as a demonym in info-box?

Afghani is another commonly used demonym. A Google search for Afghani gives 2,260,000 results, so obviously it is a commonly used term. It is also listed in dictionaries as a native or inhabitant of Afghanistan (link).

The term is used for the currency so the google hits are not that meaningful. Also, only one dictionary said "inhabitant of Afghanistan" the rest said its the currency. --MarsRover (talk) 17:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I've done another Google search excluding the word "currency" and I ended up getting even more results (3,080,000 Google search results for Afghani - excluding the word "currency"). So now we can be sure that it is a commonly used term.

There are many dictionaries that define Afghani as a demonym of Afghanistan. Here's two from dictionary.com:

• American Heritage Dictionary: Af·ghan·i Audio Help (āf-gān'ē, -gä'nē) Pronunciation Key adj. Of or relating to Afghanistan; Afghan. n. pl. Af·ghan·is A native or inhabitant of Afghanistan; an Afghan.

• Princeton University's WordNet: adjective 1. of or relating to or characteristic of Afghanistan or its people

And here's another dictionary that define Afghani as a demonym:

• The Canadian Oxford Dictionary: 1. Afghani noun a native or national of Afghanistan.

Google hits are a rough indicator if anything, and your method of excluding "currency" is not valid. Look how many hits you get with dollar excluding currency (24,100,000 for Dollar -currency). Also, I would recommend signing your comments if you're serious about convincing people. --MarsRover (talk) 23:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

We have been through this already. It is included in a footnote to what is in the infobox, and this was the consensus agreement for the sake of compromise. If you wish to see the lengthy discussions we have already had concerning this, please see the talk archives. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

One of Wikipedia's methods is to always improve itself and if something is uncertain it should be further discussed. Discusses things again is a good thing. Also, you mention consensus but a poll is not consensus according to Wikipedia. You also mention "compromise", I really don't know what you mean by this. I'm asking why is it not in the info-box. The whole purpose of why there is a demonym section setup in the info-box is to list the demonym or demonyms for countries that have multiple demonyms. From the discussion last time, it appears the argument was that even though it was in dictionaries, it was not commonly used. But according to these Google search results (3,080,000 Google search results - excluding the word "currency") the term is commonly used. Therefore, there is no reason for it not to be in the info-box. Unless a good reason is provided it should stay in the info-box.

Everyone involved agreed that there was consensus. Thus, even though there was a poll, everyone involved agreed to use a poll to establish consensus. When everyone involved (socks obviously, and sensibly, excluded) agrees that there is consensus, then there is consensus. Whether or not a poll was used does not matter, provided that everyone agrees on the method. We would have participated in a poll if we did not think it was a useful and necessary way of establishing consensus for what was to be put in the infobox. And why are you saying that polls are against WP policy, when you have subsequently set up a poll?

Yes, consensus can change. But until there is an undeniable change in consensus, the status quo needs be kept. It is not in the infobox because it was agreed that though Afghani and Afghanistani are used, they are not the standard demonym. Thus we put them in a footnote, to compromise between those who wanted them in the infobox, and those who wanted them left out altogether.

They are not commonly used, we have all seen that. Anytime NPR or a reputable journalistic source, such as the Washington Post, speaks of persons from Afghanistan, they use "Afghan"; educated English-speakers do not use Afghani or Afghanistani. Please realize that since these terms are in a footnote, the information is retained in the encyclopedia--it is hardly as though the info isn't here. The info is in the article, why do people not understand that? Just because it is in a footnote does not mean it is not included. Afghani and Afghanistani are already included in the article, no change is needed.

Pushing for them to be in the infobox alongside Afghan is unnecessary rocking of the boat.

Also, please realize that as an anon, your motivations are suspect. This page has far-too often been the victim of vandalism by socks for everyone to trust anons and new users. If (and I'm not saying you are) you are a sock, please quit upsetting this page. Further, I suspect your motivations because you are only concerned with inserting Afghani in the userbox; if your intentions were honourable, you would want Afghanistani listed as well. You're likely just another nationalist sock trying to interfere with the page. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not asking for it to be included in the article, I am asking why it is not in the info-box. Please stop throwing around accusations, I am not an Afghan-nationalist. The nationalistic position is actually to only have Afghan and not Afghani, that is what Afghan-nationalists like to insist on. I never brought up Afghanistani, I am asking about Afghani. But since you claim that only educated people use Afghan, then are the authors of these 222 (http://books.google.com/books?q=Afghanistani&btnG=Search+Books) books not educated? What you just said is an extreme POV. As you can see educated people do use demonyms other than Afghan, especially educated people as 220 books on Google books use Afghanistani instead of Afghan. However, if you like polls then we will have another one. This poll will only be for Afghani.

Yes, the fact that you are asking about Afghani and never brought up Afghanistani is what makes me suspect your intentions. If your concern was to include all demonyms, you would be just as concerned with Afghanistani as Afghani. Therefore, it is reasonable to think that you are a POV-pusher who wants persons from Afghanistan to be called Afghanis, rather than Afghans or Afghanistanis. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I want all demonyms to be listed. If I wanted only Afghani then I would have asked Afghan to be removed. I have not mentioned Afghanistani yet because that is a different case which I will bring up later.

"The poll will only be for Afghani." This is obviously demonstrative of your lack of interest in what is right. As you said, "The whole purpose of why there is a demonym section setup in the info-box is to list the demonym or demonyms for countries that have multiple demonyms." If you were concerned with including the multiple demonyms of Afghanistan in the infobox, you would be concerned with Afghanistani as well as Afghani. The only logical explanation I can see is that you're another POV-pushing sock. If you are actually concerned with Afghanistani, why have you yet to bring that up? It is sourced, so there is no reason to treat it differently from Afghani. Both are less-commonly used demonyms than are Afghan. If you think that Afghanistani should not be included, this would further strengthen the case that you are a POV-pusher, because it is sourced, so there is no good reason not to treat it on an equal footing with Afghani. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

You are a very aggressive editor and constantly throwing around accusations, please stop. I have explained that Afghanistani is a different issue than Afghani and I will bring it up later on. I am not the POV pusher, it is you the one that claimed that educated people do not use Afghanistani then I gave you 222 books whose author uses Afghanistani instead of Afghan disproving your POV. Right now I want to discuss Afghani. I will discuss Afghanistani later. I am doing it this way to avoid confusion with the two terms otherwise things will get complicated and people will loose track of things.

Would you mind at least stating your case on Afghanistani, to demonstrate that you aren't just trying to throw it out? Cause at this point, it is what I am afraid you are trying to do. And while yes, Afghani is used some by people with an education, it is behind Afghan by leaps and bounds; that was the point I was making. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I will start another discussion and poll on Afghanistani probably tomorrow. Let's give people a day to read this and vote without confusion. I assure you I am not trying to throw it out.

"By leaps and bounds" is not POV. Google both of them. "Afghan" comes up 8.3x as much as does the word "Afghani". 8.3 is leaps and bounds. Afghani is not included in the OED, the definitive English dictionary, as a demonym--that is leaps and bounds. That was the whole point of people who did not want Afghani (or Afghanistani) included at all--they are not used anywhere near as much as is Afghan. Afghani and Afghanistani were almost not even included in the article. That they are in a footnote, for everyone to see, is a reasonable compromise. There is no new reason to Please quit acting as though as many people use Afghani as do Afghan. That is patently not true. And Afghani and Afghanistani are related to one another; there is no reason not to bring them up together. If you think there is, then please say so. Otherwise, you continue to smell like a sock. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

That does not neglect the 2.9 million results for Afghani. If you notice, the dictionaries I provided are American and Canadian (North American). And one of them was a Canadian version of OED. So it is in the OED actually, though the Canadian version. American and Canadian English are as important as British so it should not be neglected. Afghani and Afghanistani of coarse both mean native or inhabitant of Afghanistan but I want to discuss them separately and give each one it's own reasons and not to have them confused with the other. By the way, Afghani and Afghanistani are a little different in their meanings. Please see the article Afghanistani. Just give it a little time for this discussion to settle.

There are only 2.3m results for Afghani, first of all. And as Mars pointed out, you're methods are off and google results are rough anyhow. Furthermore, as we have said, Afghani is still included in the article. You're acting as though it is excluded. The OED is the best indicator of English usage; I'm not denying that the dictionaries you provided are RS, but it is still the case that because it is not in the OED, it is by no means a widely accepted demonym. Thus why it is in a footnote and not in the main body of the infobox. And we have sources saying that both Afghani and Afghanistani are demonyms of Afghanistan. So for what we are discussing, that is their meaning, regardless if they have other, different connotations according to other persons. Carl.bunderson (talk) 01:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The OED is a British English dictionary. American and Canadian English dictionaries do have Afghani defined as a demonym. OED's Canadian edition (The Canadian Oxford Dictionary) has Afghani defined as a demonym. So it is in the OED, just not the British version. The English Wikipedia includes all varieties of English. Besides, American English is gaining more influence than British these days.

I'm glad you're not trying to throw out Afghanistani. If nothing else, would you state what you think on it on my talk page though? However, I really think that people are smart enough to follow a conversation on both of the alternative demonyms, so it would be ideal here. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The poll needs to be re-worded. The way it is now, it gives the impression that Afghani is not included in the article at all. The wording is misleading and could skew the results, so the poll needs to be redone. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The poll is very simple: either this demonym is included in the info-box or not. The info-box is where we list the demonyms so that is what this poll is concerning. If you don't think Afghani should be in the info-box's demonym listing for the reader to see and should be in the footnotes instead where no reader will see it, then please vote and provide that as your reason.

You've failed to notice my point. The way you have worded the poll will skew the results. Surely you realize this. Everyone knows that the questions you ask affect the answers you get. I am fine having a poll, but it needs to be fair. I will strike through this poll again, and continue to do so if the sock (not you, anon) undoes my edit. Carl.bunderson (talk) 03:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Well you shouldn't be doing that since you are not an administrator, but I will change the wording since you insist.

Ok its going to take more than that. We need to completely start the poll over. It should be worded more like the previous poll than the version you have. Your wording right now is very biased against my position. Carl.bunderson (talk) 06:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I've provided a new poll, in which everyone is free to vote. If you disagree with the wording I have provided, please discuss it with me and we will come up with something that we can agree on. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Anon, this discussion thread, as well as the previous ones, give plenty enough context for people to decide how to vote. Including reasons in the poll itself is push polling. When we vote for elected officials, we arent presented with a pro/con list in the polling place...the appropriate time for that is prior to the polling.

The reason there should be two separate polls is very simple and should be obvious: the person voting might want Afghani but not Afghanistasni, or they might want Afghanistani but not Afghani.

But there is no reason to want Afghani but not Afghanistani, or vice versa. Carl.bunderson (talk) 17:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

There might not be a reason that you can think of, but I'm sure others can. One reason would be for example that Afghanistani does not have as many Google search results as Afghani.

That is an invalid reason. As long as both are sourced, both ought to be treated the same. Your poll is treating them separately, in defiance of precedence, and still is giving reasons for Afghanistani. My poll solves both of those issues. Carl.bunderson (talk) 17:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

You've again deleted my comments, in defiance of a three-fold warning from another user. And ThuranX does not seem to be an admin: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&dir=prev&limit=500&group=sysop

I did not delete your latest comment intentionally, you keep reverting and crossing out the poll in defiance of ThuranX. I've placed your latest comment back. Even if he is not an administrator, there is now consensus that you are pushing your POV. This is obvious by the fact that you voted negative.

There is no consensus about this. He sided with you, cab sided with me. That is perfectly evenly split. You seem to have no idea about what consensus is. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Cab did not side with you. He was fine with my poll but he changed the wording a little, which I accidentally reverted. I told him after I changed it back to his way and he is fine with it (my poll with his modification to it).

(The above three comments refactored for legibility)ThuranX (talk) 05:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Poll

Considering that Afghani is defined as people of Afghanistan in the dictionaries listed above and that there are 3,080,000 Google search results for it, shouldn't Afghani be listed as a demonym?

Please sign underneath which one you want to see with four tildes (~) and if you vote no please provide a reason.

• Yes, Afghani should be in the info-box

1. --Anoshirawan 05:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
2. Shervink (talk) 13:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

• No, Afghani should not be in the info-box because...

Poll crossed out by User:Carl.bunderson

Poll

Please vote in support of one of three possible positions on the demonym issue:

1. mention all three terms in the infobox

--Anoshirawan 05:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

2. mention Afghan in the infobox, and footnote Afghani and Afghanistani

Carl.bunderson (talk) 17:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

3. mention only Afghan

This poll is invalid on its' face, as the editor posting it crossed out a previous poll, then ONLY presented the options he already supports. THe poll needs:

1. Mention Afghan only
2. Mention Afghani Only
3. Mention Afghanistani Only
4. Mention Afghan/Afghani
5. Mention Afghan/Afghanistani
6. Mention Afghani/Afghanistani
7. Mention all Three.

Only this, a comprehensive set of options, will show real consensus, as it offers people ALL possible permutations, without biases or omissions. ThuranX (talk) 05:32, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I crossed out the previous poll because it was poorly worded. And I'm not sure what you mean by he "ONLY presented the options he already supports"; I only support one option, so your meaning is unclear. Please bother to look at the context of this debate though. Any option that does not include Afghan is untenable--this is by far the most common demonym. The others are hardly used--this is why the debate started in the first place. The others are so rarely seen, that some consider them to be spurious options. So that cuts down the possible permutations to Mention Afghan only, or mention all three.

Also, you've ignored the context by ignoring the issue of the footnotes. Afghani and Afghanistani were put in the footnote, rather than directly in the infobox, because they are not used by very well-established and even comprehensive dictionaries, i.e. the OED. But they do have sources, so they must be included in one way or another. Ergo, Mention Afghan only is not an option. With hindsight, I should not have included it in my poll--I did it merely because the poll had precedent in this talk page.

So, the only option we are left at is mentioning all three. They must all be included, because they are sourced, in one way or another. The only question that has been raised is where they are to be located. All three in the infobox, or the two less common ones in a footnote. If anyone can offer substantial reasons why these are not the only two valid permutations of the poll, please offer away. Carl.bunderson (talk) 00:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)