User talk:Jbmurray

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re: Monty Hall FAR

copied from user talk:Rick Block

(copied over from my talk page:) Yeah, it looked as though we had rather different interpretations of WP:LEAD, among other things, and I felt the discussion wasn't particularly productive. However, I'm happy to leave it at that, and have no real problems with the article remaining featured. Well done! --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. I'd like to think that we have similar interpretations of WP:LEAD (and other things) and that discussion would generally be productive. I hope this doesn't come across as pestering, and I do appreciate your willingness to let it drop, but I would like to understand. Would it be possible for you to sketch a new lead without spending too much time on it (rough sketch, without any polish)? No big hurry, and if this is too much of an imposition I guess I'll just have to be left wondering. Thanks. -- Rick Block (talk) 03:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting you go to the trouble of actually rewriting the lead in a manner appropriate to edit into the article - just a quick sketch either here or perhaps at the article's talk page (I assume this would be easier than actually rewriting the lead). -- Rick Block (talk) 20:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, yeah, thanks for this. I'll try to do something, but I'm a little busy. I do appreciate your getting in touch. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 20:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

If you get time

Hey. I was just wondering if you get time could you take a quick look at this page and maybe correct some things if you see anything wrong and tell me what they were also so I can try to improve a bit more on my article writing. Thanks. ·Add§hore· ^Talk/_Cont 23:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, and thanks for this. I left a quick note about the sourcing: the article currently has few if any third-party sources. I do wonder also if it's the best way for you to gain article-writing experience. Perhaps choose a topic that's more obviously of interest to you, and easier to get decent sources? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes I agree that I should do another article but this one is just to help out a friend a bit. Its actually his article but it got deleted first time round. ·Add§hore· ^Talk/_Cont 06:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Re oppose strike

The edit comment line has a character limit, and therefore my response is unnecessarily curt. I apologize for that. I would like to explain my M.O. The RCC FA nomination page has become exceedingly long, and the support/oppose comments difficult to account for. Several individuals marked oppose twice without qualification. In the case of this article, this double vote would be difficult to notice by the FA director. I struck your second oppose (though I left your first) and made an inline comment regarding its risk of double counting. I made no further edit to your comments. I am amenable to a phrasing similar to Still oppose to immediately and clearly note that this is an additional set of comments. Without the strikethrough, this set of comments is a second ‘nay’ vote for the FA, which is clearly unfair. I encourage your additional comments regarding this FA. However, if you insist on being counted twice, I will not hesitate to involve administrators. I doubt it will come to that since you seem to be a reasonable individual. I have a habit of putting that statement upfront early on in discussion of such matters as I typically deal with persistent vandals to certain articles. I apologize for the brusqueness it causes. Best regards. Lwnf360 (talk) 08:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I have no thought of "voting" twice. I revisited the FAC when asked by the nominator. You should not be editing other editors' comments on the FAC, let alone doing it twice, after I'd made it clear you shouldn't be doing it. And repeated attempts to threaten other editors (by bringing in admins or whatever) hardly dispose me towards whatever point of view you may have. Moreover, I am certain that the FA director (or rather, his delegate) can see that this is a revisited oppose, rather than some kind of underhand "insist[ence] on being counted twice," the very suggestion of which is insulting and ridiculous.

However, should you be confused by the situation, I am happy to clarify it for you. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 08:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Your actions speak otherwise for opposing the FA twice. As you have rendered it, you are very likely to be counted twice with regard to your opposition of this FA. Fairness is very important in this process—this article has been denied FA four times, as-such I want to see the ‘i’s dotted and ‘t’s crossed. I respect your opposition, but I do not support the way you have added additional comments. Please either strike your second oppose or change the wording so that it is immediately clear that this is a revisit for you. If you remain obstinate, I will, regrettably, involve administrators over this petty issue. I ask that you reconsider your actions regarding this. Best regards. Lwnf360 (talk) 09:07, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying your wording regarding your oppose. Lwnf360 (talk) 09:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Before you made this comment, did you bother to look at my most recent edit to the FAC itself? I am not the one being obstinate here. Again, your attempts to threaten me (by talking about "involv[ing] adminstrators") are hardly very impressive. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 09:11, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I was writing my stricken comment while you made the further edits to the FAC. I struck my above comment, and thanked you for clarifying your continued oppose to the RCC FAC immediately after I saw your clarification. Again, I apologize for approaching this in a way that has upset you. Best regards. Lwnf360 (talk) 09:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

(outdent:) The issue is at an end as far as I'm concerned. But I've dropped you a note about your habits on other people's talk pages and elsewhere. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 09:26, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

		The Copyeditor's Barnstar
		Awarded to Jbmurray for kindly unsolicited and thorough copyedit on VNQDD. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the nice surprise! --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 10:42, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Mary Shelley

Might you have time this weekend to peer review Mary Shelley? Qp and I have worked and worked and we want to see what little wiki-world of literary experts thinks of our efforts! :) Awadewit (talk) 11:55, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I had a quick look, and hope to return... though I'm more of a copy-editor than a peer reviewer. ;) Feel free to revert inappropriate changes. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 10:43, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

FAC sections

Re: your wondering. Its because a transcluded page with 30-50 subpages each bringing a multitude of subheadings would create TOC hell, though in the case of RCC subsections would have been very handy indeed; that was some diffucult FAC to follow. Anyway, Peter Wall hasn't cropped up on my watchlist in a while; wondering what are your intentions, thoughts on it these days. Ceoil (talk) 19:22, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I'd like to get back to Peter Wall; I left things in Carcharoth's hands, and it might be worth having a word with him before proceeding. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:46, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject Global Economics merges

Hi. As someone who was active in the discussion about this Wikiproject, I'd thought you might be interested in my comments here. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:09, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

the supernatural

Things supernatural are regarded by many folk in post-industrial societies with cynicism (ghosts, flying saucers, tarrow cards, witch doctors). I use what is strictly speaking a redundant epithet to remind them that sky-god religion is little better and should be treated with the same cynicism. It's no coincidence that there was tension between the text of the RCC FAC and WP's scholastic/scientific rules concerning the admissibility of claims without evidence; but I think Nancy and co. gradually realised how to satisfy that requirement.

Oops, I forgot that 17% of Americans believe they've been abducted by aliens and anally probed (true, by one survey late last century). But then another survey of American protestant clergymen revealed that 42% don't believe in a deity. I'm confused. TONY (talk) 12:38, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Tony, I think that is a little unfair. Supernatural religion is a chararstic of all societies, and a desire-though many work past it (said as one raised as a strick catholic, but a non believer since I was about 11)-to believe in a higher power is innate in the human psyche. But there is a tradition and moral framework behind mainstream religion that that sets them appart from "flying saucers, tarrow cards, witch doctors". The "17% of Americans believe they've been abducted by aliens" is a probably not true, I just can't believe that. The 42% has to do playing along with convention and instruments of social control, I guess, (not being an expert, or particuraly interested), but is salient. I know both my parents raised me as RCC, but both are atheist. Anyway. Ceoil (talk) 03:53, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

As it happens, I share Tony's opinion of religion as ancient mumbo-jumbo. Unlike him though I do not confuse the account of any particular religion's beliefs with a statement about the world. It is simply an account of what is believed by a certain group of people, and that is all that has to be supported by the evidence. I find the description "supernatural religion" to be endearingly quaint, although it would be hard to know where to begin in the dissection of its many layers of absurdity. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 02:15, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Housekeeping

Thank you ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

My soon-to-be RFA

Hi jbmurray. I am back from my much-needed vacation :) You asked me to let you know when I planned to list my RfA because you had time-sensitive information to add. I'm ready to list it whenever you tell me you are ready for me to do so. I'll check back tonight; if you want to wait until tomorrow or later that is fine with me too. Enjoy the rest of your weekend! Karanacs (talk) 19:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Let me know as well when you transclude it; my watchlist is big enough that things sometimes get lost in it. As I've requested notification, WP:CANVASS won't apply. – iridescent 19:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Will do. Am on island right now, on tiny, tiny laptop; return in a few hours. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Lucky, lucky you :) I hope it is a pretty island surrounded by crystal clear water! Karanacs (talk) 03:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

A very pretty island! And a beautiful day. But I've just got back to the mainland. Will add my bit to the RfA in a mo. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 03:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Jb, doesn't K need to resign that RfA and adjust the times? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. I suspect that signing again would be appropriate, but am unfamiliar with the relevant protocols. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 04:47, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I have a feeling it's really important to get that part right. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Have pinged the iridescent one. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 05:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

(Butting in) Yeah, she needs to resign, and replace the end date (the bit after "Scheduled to end") with {{subst:#time: H:i, [[j F]] [[Y]] "(UTC)"|+7 days}} (which gives 16:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC) - the time in exactly seven days) - copy that code exactly and you should be fine. giggy _(:O) 06:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Marvellous. Thanks for that, giggy. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 06:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

You gonna support? ;) Enigma ^message 17:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Thanks for trying to keep this on track. I appreciate your efforts...but aren't you supposed to be hiding during the week? ;) Karanacs (talk) 02:21, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Uff, tell me about it... and this week more than most. But I feel some kind of responsibility, also with the RCC article. I will definitively be off from Friday, however, as I'm travelling for a few weeks. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 02:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Wackymacs suggestion

Jbmurray, I got roped into improving History of computing hardware, mainly about keeping it a featured article. Now I have discovered that the {{cite}} template is very bulky, and am trying to keep the article byte count below 81K to avoid an internal message. I hope that the {{tl|Harvnb}} can help the citation size. Wackymacs gave me your name as a contact for using it correctly in a citation. If you could point me to a couple of examples of its use in a citation, I would appreciate any knowledge you can give about this approach.

Thank you, Ancheta Wis (talk) 08:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I just followed the link and think the documentation is good. So thank you for your virtual help. I will continue hopefully without bothering you further. Unless I get into a jam. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 08:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Hiya. Miguel Ángel Asturias might be one. If and when you run into problems, feel free to give me a shout. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 08:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

FA-Team Mission 4

Mission 4, a series of articles on the Everglades, could do with help from the FA-Team! Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 13:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• These articles came through PR and are quite good in terms of refs and photos and just need some polish. I undeleted my suggestion at FA-Team- thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Ah, Fisch, that's a painful edit summary !!! (el problema :-)) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Sorry - yo no habla Espanol - if it were German I'd be more upset (since I actually know that). Muchas gracias! Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:43, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Feature Article Candidate Roman Catholic Church

The nomination of the above article was archived by the Featured Articles Director, with the comment that the page had again grown too long. He has asked that all remaining objectors produce a list of their specific problems with the article in its current form. These will then be addressed by the article's editorial team before re-presentation for FA status.

Can you therefore please post a complete list of any specific remaining objections you may have on the article's talk page at: Talk:Roman_Catholic_Church. If possible can we have this list in by the end of June, so that editors can begin to address them all in detail in July. To prevent the nomination again becoming over-long, we would ask that you raise ALL of your remaining concerns at this stage, making your comments as specific and comprehensive as possible. It would help if all your comments were gathered under your name in a single heading on the page. Thank you. Xandar (talk) 01:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Xandar:

1. As I have told you, the nomination was not suspended; it was failed. I'm not sure why you continue to suggest otherwise. As such, even the section header here is misleading: the article is not currently a featured article candidate.
2. As I have also repeatedly said, my immediate responses to Raul254's comments on the last FAC are here, and can also be found on multiple parts of Talk:Roman_Catholic_Church.
3. I have also repeatedly tried, with the best interests of the article uppermost, to suggest more productive ways in which you could be reacting to the FAC failure. I'm not at all sure why you do not want to listen.

I honestly fear that you, we, and everyone is simply heading for a repeat of the problems already seen repeatedly with this article at FAC. This would be in nobody's best interest, least of all those of the article itself. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 23:44, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The reasons for the withdrawal of the article are on the FAC talk page. They are the reasons shown in my post above. We are simply following the comments of the Featured Articles Director. I do not understand why some people seem afraid of producing a comprehensive list of their problems with the article so that they can be addressed. Xandar (talk) 23:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Xandar, again:

1. The message above is a misrepresentation.
2. I have repeatedly responded to the comments of the Featured Articles Director, and to your own comments on the talk page and elsewhere. I am in no sense "afraid" of listing my comments.
3. I am, however, afraid that the the way you are proceeding, not least the fact that you are having such trouble listening to or understanding what I (and others) are trying to say, will simply lead to a repetition of the problems already seen in the last FAC.

Honestly. I am saying all this with the best interests of the article in mind. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 00:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Your comments on the RCC talk page need to be the full and complete extent of any remaining oppose. Xandar (talk) 01:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

??? Misunderstanding of Wiki in general, FAC in particular? I don't know what to make of the statement above. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Different RCC request

I know it's not the weekend and I know you are about to go on vacation (yea!) and I know you are busy doing other nice things for me. Still, if you should by any chance have a few minutes of extra time at some point in the next week or so, I'd appreciate your eyes on a new proposal for the RCC history section. This time, I'm operating on a potentially stupid incorrect assumption that part of the problems in the history section of that article might be that it just goes into way too much detail. If we can strip that section down to the basics, it might be tight enough to help us get to NPOV more easily. I'm working solely within what is already in the article (no new sources), and I've managed to cut about 30% of what I consider fluff (for this article) already. I didn't cut much from the Latin America paragraphs that you worked on because that is much beyond my knowledge. If you are interested here's my working proposal; feel free to make further cuts, restore data that might be necessary, or make other suggestions for improvements. I'm asking a few other editors with interest in pieces of Catholic history to do the same, and after a while of mulling I'll present it as a proposal at the RCC talk page. Karanacs (talk) 15:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

An award

This Cool as a Cucumber Award is awarded for trying to cool everyone down at the monster which is Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Karanacs. Keep it up! I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 19:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Very kind. Thanks so much. I do think it's unfortunate when RfAs get off track, and particularly when people who oppose become the subject of critical discussion, rather than the candidate him- or herself.

More generally, I think people should be allowed to make mistakes. The wiki is funny in that way: on the one hand, it really doesn't matter what kind of mess you make, because the glory of the set-up is that someone can come by and fix it; on the other hand, it keeps this record of just about every keystroke you've ever made.

And when you (we, anyone) make a mistake, I think it's fine and proper for someone to call you on it. But, so long as you learn, and we're all learning, and show good faith, those mistakes shouldn't have to come back and haunt you. And yet at RfA, in particular, they often do. And what's worse is when !voters have their activities scrutinized, as well as candidates!

Sometimes I think that as a result there are some editors who are scared to make mistakes, especially if they are considering running for adminship at some point. That's a pity. I like editors who aren't afraid to speak their mind, so long of course as they are also prepared to listen to others.

This is, incidentally, one of the reasons I like Karanacs: she doesn't shy away from the difficult situations, and generally she handles them very well indeed. I don't run into you so often, but I can believe that you act similarly in the parts of the encyclopedia in which you're active. I hope so, at least.

Anyhow, sorry for all this rambling on. Thanks again for the award. I hope that the discussion dies down about your ANI thread (which as I said, I think was just fine, even though I disagreed with you). All the best. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 22:33, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

FYI

One more vote at WP:RFA/K shouldn't make a difference – and, repeat "not a vote" often enough and people might start believing it – but you haven't actually voted yet! – iridescent 19:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Laser

I hope this is under control, but want to peek in here? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)