Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Guidelines

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Comment

What is going on here: A lot of work was done (in large part by StuRat) in developing two pages; /rules and /guideline. There was accusation of POV-forking. Then TenOfAllTrades developed a draft based in the previous work and discussions. There was consensus that that draft would be an appropriate continuation. To that end, and to prevent discussion of the same topic, proposed RD policy, taking place in multiple locations, I am bringing it all here. The /rule and /guideline are archived here for reference only. Please do not edit those. The Ten draft can and should be edited.

Please discuss edits only on the associated talk page, Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/guidelines. --Justanother 15:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

This page is divided up as follows.

• Major sections (second-level '=='-enclosed headings) describe guiding principles for the Desk.
  • Subsections (third-level '==='-enclosed headings) represent guidelines that I think follow from those principles.
    • A description, any clarification, and rationale for each guideline is provided as body text.

Obviously in its current format it's unsuitable for direct placement on the Ref Desk. Further discussion is needed and welcomed about how these guidelines should be incorporated into our existing framework, and what changes or additions are needed.

I'm keeping this in my userspace for now because I'm trying to keep a lid on any potential edit warring over this content. By all means direct brickbats, kudos, and suggestions to the talk page, and we'll see if we can synthesize something useful.

The purpose of this page is to present what I think is a reasonable (and close-to-consensus) view of the purpose and philosophy of the Reference Desk, as well as some guidelines for users and contributors that I think fall naturally from that philosophy. Note that I am not addressing enforcement mechanisms at the moment.

Notice

Just wanted to urgently request that everyone do their best to stay on topic here. This page is for talking about Wikipedia:Reference desk/guidelines and has no other purpose. Complaints about users can be directed to their talk pages. Discussion of the reference desks in general belongs on WT:RD. Thank you all for your consideration in this matter. Friday (talk) 21:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Okay. This page is too long, since the three sections copy/pasted in where somewhat redundant. Someone'll have to clear out the redundancy. The content is fine, even if some of it may be stating the obvious. The only part that really doesn't belong is the byzantine process suggested for deletion of items, as it's unwiki, overly bureaucratic and instruction creep. (Radiant) 12:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Community?

We need to be clearer about what kind of "sense of community" we're trying to promote. Enhancing the Wikipedia community mostly means being good to newbies and showing them how we do things here, and of course that's great. However, conversation and chatting mostly just promotes camraderie for a subset of the ref desk regulars—and I'm not sure the ref desk should be for that purpose. Consider the recent issues with Wikipedia:Esperanza, which was strongly requested by outside users to modify their structure, because they were developing their own community to the exclusion of the Wikipedia community. -- SCZenz 17:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this addition of language talking about the goal of developing a sense of community is relevant here. I think there is or was something called Wikipedia:Esperanza that had a goal relating to that. In the interest of harmonious editing, I won't remove it myself, but I don't see that promoting a sense of community is a core goal of the reference desk. Individual editors who want to promote community can do so as they see fit, of course, but I don't see how this is related to the reference desk specifically. Friday (talk) 17:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point about showing newbies how things work here. To some extent, the reference desk has been actively harmful to that goal, by giving new editors the idea that Wikipedia (or, one part of it) is for general chatting, free speech, or giving our personal opinions. I think we can mostly agree that there've been some unfortunately big conflicts due in large part to different expectations and culture at the reference desk. Anyone who wants to start a wiki-based "anything and everything" question-and-answers website is welcome to do so of course, but as long as the reference desk is part of Wikipedia, it should be part of Wikipedia. It follows logically that the goals of the reference desk can't be outside the goals of the project as a whole. Friday (talk) 18:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't only apply to the Ref Desk, it also applies to other talk pages, as well. However, it needs to be said here, because there are those who think that any efforts to build a sense of community at the Ref desk should be suppressed. StuRat 18:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

We got into all kinds of misunderstanding before by jumping to conclusions about what people want to do. Nobody's talking supressing it. At least, no more than it's "suppressed" anywhere else. But, it is not one of the core goals of the reference desk, and thus should not be mentioned in the guideline. There's plenty of middle ground for things that are neither encouraged, nor suppressed. Friday (talk) 18:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The "sense of community" is facilitated by allowing conversations, not just curt, factual answers. This includes conversation not only with the question asker, but between responders and others who want to join the conversation. This may also lead to some drift from the original topic, which is OK, so long as the question itself is addressed. Here is a good example: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Parasitic_Worm. StuRat 18:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

But again... why should Wikipedians in general endorse the page as having a purpose of creating a "sense of community" among a small group of ref desk regulars? -- SCZenz 18:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

You're misrepresenting me again, SCZenz, I never said it was only to develop a sense of community "among a small group of ref desk regulars", it's to develop that sense of community among all Wikipedians, new and experienced. StuRat 18:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm not misrepresenting you. I'm describing the actual effect of the kind of "community"-promoting conversations that you want to be enshrined in reference desk policy. Not everyone on the ref desk feels more part of any community because of them—some feel excluded and irritated—and it certainly doesn't include newbies or help them feel more involved in Wikipedia. -- SCZenz 18:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not endorse this at all, and neither, I suspect, do most others. Individual editors who want to do so can, provided they're not getting in anyone's way, of course. As suggested above, I suggest that everyone who thinks "community" is of key importance here should probably review the history of Esperanza. Friday (talk) 18:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we need anything special about sense of community. Sense of community is a natural development in an, eerrr, community. --Justanother 18:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I think if you seek to legitimize a degree of chat then that is best done by noting that the atmosphere is informal. --Justanother 18:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem with "Wikipedia community" is that its so nebulous, there's little agreement on it. I (and, from what I can see, others) have purposely gone out of my way to avoid being part of a "community", because I strongly feel that a shared goal is enough, and no other sense of "community" is needed. Indeed, in many cases, the "community" gets in the way of the shared goal. Now, I'm not going to run around trying to prevent people from feeling like they're part of a community, but I sure won't encourage this, either. So, in short- we're introducing needless complication by introducing this concept here. If people want to debate the merits of community, let them do it at Esperanza or Wikipedia:Community or elsewhere. There's no need to tack the notion of community onto the reference desk, any moreso than any other project page. We have enough work to do on this guideline without expanding its scope needlessly. Friday (talk) 18:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not "expanding its scope needlessly", building a sense of community is a Wikipedia goal which is directly relevant to the types of questions and answers which are allowed on the Ref Desk. As such, it should be mentioned here. StuRat 18:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there some precedent for the notion that building a sense of community is one of the goals of Wikipedia? The policies and guidelines I can think of either don't mention "community" at all, or they say things like "Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia and, as a means to that end, an online community of people interested in building a high-quality encyclopedia..." I can't think of any established tradition (or a guideline) that says that building a sense of community is itself, a goal of the project. Friday (talk) 18:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

This is the first time I've heard that building a sense of community should not be a goal of Wikipedia. I would expect that it's accepted so universally as a goal, that it doesn't often need to be stated, except for when somebody suggests it's unimportant. StuRat 19:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't know what to tell you, other than what I said above: check around. The places that mention community at all mention it specifically to say that it takes a back seat to the encyclopedia. If you want to encourage a sense of community, that's fine- but this isn't the place for it. See Esperanza- that's what they're about. Friday (talk) 19:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Opinions

This is going to be a big point of contention, but we might as well start. I disagree with this addition. Personal opinions should certainly be avoided on clearly factual questions, and it is better to turn opinion questions into factual questions whenever possible. I'm not interested in focusing on what's "permitted," but this guideline should not say anywhere that giving opinions is "encouraged." -- SCZenz 18:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and I tweaked the guideline a bit to better reflect the notion that opinions should be discouraged. Friday (talk) 18:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Bit of tweaking the first para - how does that look? No need to mention community-building or beat the horse too much about opinion. --Justanother 19:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I like that wording very much, although we may yet quibble down the road about the implications of the last sentence. -- SCZenz 19:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC) -- SCZenz 19:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Outstanding. Love it. Whoops, it's gone now. I really think it was tons better as you put it. Friday (talk) 19:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Stu, what do you object to in my edit. I am sure we can accomodate your concerns. --Justanother 19:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I only meant to change what Friday did, I didn't even see your changes. Perhaps this is more of that weirdness that's been happening over the last few days. If you want to put your changes back in, I'll only take out the parts I disagree with, not the whole thing. StuRat 19:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Tell you what; I will revert to mine and you bring up any issues you have here so we do not edit-war. --Justanother 19:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

How about if we leave my version there, and you bring up any issues here, so we do not edit-war ? StuRat 19:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone NOT think that the primary purpose of the RD is to serve the Wikipedia project? That seems to me a no-brainer but perhaps I am missing something.--Justanother 19:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

(Agree that this is a no-brainer) Friday (talk) 19:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, no, I think the primary purpose should be to answer questions, whether doing so serves Wikipedia or not. For example, if there is a better source outside of Wikipedia, we should refer people there, not to a poorly written Wikipedia article. StuRat 19:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The two are not mutually exclusive. We should direct to the poor article, mention it is poor, and then send them off-site for the answer. That way we encourage improvement of the article. That is how it serves both the project and the public. --Justanother 19:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, and I'm not disputing that "serving Wikipedia" is a purpose of the Ref Desk, only that it's the primary purpose. To me, at least, the primary purpose is to answer questions. StuRat 19:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Until we see some agreement that it belongs, I'm against the re-addition of language saying that personal opinions are encouraged. So far the talk page discussion leans that way too, so I'm not sure why we'd think this removed was caused by an accident of software. Friday (talk) 19:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Friday, please try to follow WP:AGF. StuRat 19:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, obviously. You think your content was removed accidentally, then? From reading the talk page, I came to a different conclusion. Friday (talk) 20:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused, has someone claimed my content was removed accidentally ? StuRat 21:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought you did, with this edit. Misunderstanding is, of course, a possibility. Friday (talk) 21:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

opinions in general

Here's my take on opinions. (This is a continuation of some thoughts begun here and here.)

In general, I think we should discourage matters of opinion, both in questions and in answers. Wikipedia tends to favor objective scientific fact, and it definitely disfavors P's OV, and opinions are obviously P's OV. If nothing else, discussions about matters of opinion tend to degenerate into long debates, not the succinct, fact-based question-answering that the RD is supposed to be.

Now, with that said, and before someone takes my head off, I hasten to add that I do not think we should disallow all opinions. I do not think that our discouragement to questioners should be as harshly worded as the "While we have opinions, we're not going to tell you what they are, so don't ask for them", which once appeared on Wikipedia:Reference_desk/guideline. And I think that, under some circumstances, answers which merely supply opinions, or which speculate in a sort of armchairey way (i.e. by doing something other than coldly citing elsewhere-published factual answers) are perfectly appropriate. And I think it's useful to explore when opinions aren't and are useful (which I will now do, in an opinionated, armchair-speculationey sort of way).

First, some questions just clearly aren't worth trying to answer.

• What is your favorite color?
• Which is better, PS2 or Xbox? Mac or Windows? Red Hat or Debian?
• In a fight between Neal Stephenson and William Gibson, who would win?

The Reference Desk, I think it's safe to say, is not an opinion poll. Reference Desk contributors are valued (and queried) for their knowledge and expertise, not for their random opinions. There may be places on the net to debate these imponderable questions, but the Wikipedia Reference Desk is not it. (Although with that said, it turns out that my third hypothetical question does have a definitive answer, which you can read about on slashdot.)

One reason pure-opinion questions aren't appropriate for the Reference Desk is that there's nothing special about Reference Desk answerers which qualifies them to answer such questions. You could walk down the street asking random strangers what their favorite color was, and you'd get the same selection of answers with precisely the same authority.

Contrariwise, I think it's acceptable for Reference Desk answerers to offer opinion when doing so definitely adds something of value to the discussion, when the opinion has some value beyond "I'm a person and I have it". If the question being asked doesn't have a definitive answer, and you know that it doesn't, your informed opinion may be valuable. If the question being asked involves some particular aspect or nuance of an otherwise objective fact, such as "how do I explain X to someone who believes Y", speculation on the Reference Desk may be appropriate.

Two examples, one con, one pro:

• There was a question on the Humanities desk about "Holocaust guilt", which sparked a big talk page debate about the propriety of posting opinions on such a question. In a case like that, I personally would not post my opinion. I do have an opinion, but since I am (a) not German and (b) not a WWII historian and (c) under 60 years of age, I really don't think that out of the 6 billion people in the world, or even out of the smaller set of people who ever post to Wikipedia's Reference Desk, that my opinion is worth posting, especially since there are plenty of people who are (a), (b), or (c) and whose opinions on this sort of question are much more valuable than mine.

• On the other hand, whenever there's a question about the scientific method, or about evolution versus creationism or (lately) "intelligent design", you can almost always get a rise out of me. (The latest example is here.) And while I've been criticized for contributing to these threads (e.g. here), I'll defend myself on the grounds that (d) the question is topical, and (e) I am reasonably knowledgeable about it, and (f) I'm always looking for better ways to explain it, and (g) it's an important enough issue that I think we owe people individualized answers, especially if their question is along the lines of "how do I explain X to someone who believes Y", and as long as they're not trolls.

You may disagree with the specific criteria or examples I've suggested here, but the broader issues I've raised are, I think, relevant. Even so, though, the "guidelines" I've suggested here are quite loose, and require quite a bit of thinking and (possibly opinionated) interpretation themselves. (Which is why they're not even guidelines.) But I don't see any way around this. If opinions are going to be tolerated at all, and if their use is not going to regularly trigger long, rambling, speculative, opinionated debates, people have to be circumspect about posting them, have to really think about their particular opinion and its relation to the particular issue. People can't just say, "Oh, I'm an intelligent person and this is an interesting question and I'm in a posting mood today so I'll just spout whatever's on my mind." You have to know enough about the issue to know whether or not there are people who know more about it than you do.

In the end, the guidelines for posting opinion may end up being quite similar to the guidelines for posting humor: "in moderation, and only when it contributes to the discussion".

—Steve Summit (talk) 05:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's be more conservative

If someone adds something, and someone else disagrees strongly enough to remove it, it's generally bad form to just re-add it. So I ask everyone to edit conservatively in this regard. Friday (talk) 19:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

If you're suggesting we should only make changes based on consensus or supermajority, I thought there was great objection to that and that "the wiki process" allows anyone to edit the guidelines as they think is best. StuRat 19:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm suggesting nothing other than what I said. It's poor form to use "brute force" editing- disagreements should be resolved on the talk page. Friday (talk) 19:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if we are premature in removing the "sense of community". I think 3 of 4 of us here now don't want it there perhaps for different reasons. I see the statement as unnecessary and potentially divisive. But we are only a small part of the interested parties, --Justanother 20:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

You both seem to be talking about using supermajorities and consensus to determine the content of the proposal. Friday, didn't you explicitly reject this approach when the supermajority was the other way-around ? StuRat 20:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Consensus is the ONLY way things get done here if they are at all controversial. The trick, Stu, is knowing what the consensus is and also being willing to negotiate your position to get what you essentially want from the consensus. --Justanother 20:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

(This is off-topic for this page, but I'll reply here this once) I do not, and likely will not, condone using votes of any kind for determining content. The notion of "supermajority" is thus largely irrelevant. Friday (talk) 20:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The 3 out of 4 discussion above looks very much like a supermajority discussion, to me. StuRat 21:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Deletionism on the Reference Desk

Do the schmucks who go around deleting good-faith questions and answers not realize what major pricks they are? --Nelson Ricardo 19:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Probably not but if you give us an example we can then agree or disagree with you. --Justanother 19:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

(ec) The talk page is for discussing things in an adult manner while assuming that others are here to improve the project. If you wish to contribute appropriately, please do so. Friday (talk) 19:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that unwarranted deletions performed in an inappropriate manner have been a problem. You might want to review the proposed rules for deletion here: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/guidelines#Deletion and tell us if you agree with them. StuRat 20:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I can understand being upset but this was a glitch, see Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Disappearing stuff --Justanother 20:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Glitches there may be, but there are also intentional deletions of material which oughtn't be deleted. Some people just get a big head and think they can quash others' questions or ideas. If a questions is stupid, have the balls to tell the questioner, rather than just making the question disappear. Disagree with a response or comment? Don't erase it; tell why you feel it is wrong. Blanket deletion of whatever you disagree with is censorship or just plain childish. --Nelson Ricardo 21:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

We've been bringing contested deletions to Wikipedia talk:Reference desk for discussion. Such discussions go better when we refrain from jumping to conclusions about why material was deleted. Friday (talk) 21:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

From a policy-writing standpoint, I agree with Nelson. Deleting questions unless they are totally inappropriate and/or from a known troll is rude. So this is a valid discussion for this talk page. --Justanother 21:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. StuRat 22:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion on draft guidelines

Right, this is the correct place to discuss general deletion policy, and the Ref Desk talk page is the right place to discuss any particular deletion (preferably after it has first been discussed between the author and would-be deletor). StuRat 21:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reference desk/guidelines.

I just browsed through it, reading all the interesting bits. As close as I can figure, it's perfect. Absolutely not a trace of 'uptightness' or 'ruleslawyerness', which is good. :)

And reading it a second time -- it's actually good for a laugh as well. Vranak 21:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Purpose section needs tightening up I feel (I mean its a little wordy for its purpose). I may have a go at that if Im allowed to/. I mean I so lost now with all this stuff going on that I dont know what I can edit and what I cant/shouldnt 8-|--Light current 22:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Give it a go; we might like it. We can also merge your thoughts with others. Or put your proposed language on the talk page for some input first if you prefer or if you think you will be stepping on toes. --Justanother 22:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Its not the spirit of the section I wish to alter, just its wording to make it less...wordy I mean I would like to do to it what I would do to any article that was to wordy for its own good 8-)--Light current 22:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Go right ahead and edit it, there's no process of building consensus here, just make any change you want, that's the "wiki process". StuRat 22:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, it is a process. Please add input based on the extensive polling that you did of RD regulars. --Justanother 23:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

OK I done it! Turned into quite a big rewrite actually. Hope no one is too upset by it. But I think its clearer now--Light current 23:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

This needs to be sorted out here; we don't need to have a confusion on the page itself.

While all editors agree that the reference desk's primary purpose is to be informative, there are differences of opinion regarding whether the reference desk should focus solely on encyclopedic information, or whether any and all information is fair game. One could argue that WP:V and WP:NOR are less important here, since the reference desk is not in 'article space'.

--Justanother 23:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah! Stands out a bit more now doesnt it! My aim was to make the whole thing clearer.--Light current 23:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Im sorry but Ive had to have another go at it to try to make it clearer. It will need more work and Im sorry if Im upsetting anybody. But pls feel free to take issue with any changes I make on this page, then we can discuss them. I repeat: Im not trying to upset anybody, but I just want to make this guide line as clear as it possibly can be! KISS--Light current 01:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

My point is that we here need to come up with our definitive statement and not put "we disagree" in the policy as part of the policy. That question is one of the few reasons we need RD-specific policy so let's not shirk on doing our job. If we cannot negotiate something ourselves then that question needs to go to WP:RfC and we poll the community. --Justanother 02:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Yup I agree that statement is far too wishy washy. Needs discussion! We can sort it. no need for RfC I think! 8-)

--Light current 03:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

As I argued on the Ref Desk talk page, a demand that all answers be encyclopedic is a demand that all questions be predicated on laziness -- an unwillingness to do the legwork oneself by searching Wikipedia. The exception is if there's information missing from Wikipedia -- which can be better addressed by a Request for Article.

Whenever a question is posed by a lazy Wikipedian non-searcher (e.g. Where does chocolate come from?), a curt reply is given, with little more than a link.

So, to demand encyclopedic answers is tantamount to demanding that the RD be completely neutered. And from there, it's just a quick hop to being removed outright. At least, that's how I see it. Vranak 04:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I would argue that if the pattern of disruptive and innacurate answers continued, the RD is going to be removed outright, but if answers are encyclopedic, the RD will stay. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely.

However, if all answers are strictly encyclopedic, then I daresay most answers will be dry and boring. So, readership would diminish. As would 'staff membership'. Then all it takes is one eccentric admin to suggest removal of the RD, and no one would care enough to argue.

As in all things, it's a balancing act. Vranak

Just so. And part of the balance will be for both sides of many of these tussles to back down from some of their extreme, overly-polarized positions and agree in good faith on some reasonable compromises.

The people who have gotten tired of the chat and the OR and the speculation say they want to disallow anything that isn't strictly factual and referenceable. But Vranak's right, if such a policy were enacted and (somehow!) followed, we'd have an utterly sterile and uninteresting Reference Desk.

The people who have gotten their backs up about any attempt to disallow anything sometimes make it sound like they want to retain a supposed right to post just about everything. But that's an extreme position, too; the chatter and the humor for its own sake can get out of hand, so some reasonable guidelines on what we consider reasonable are... just that, reasonable.

I don't think we need strict rules and bans on things; we just need some guidelines and some good-faith attempts to follow them, coupled with promises to respond graciously to polite, good-faith reminders in case things start getting out of hand again in the future.

—Steve Summit (talk) 00:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Very well said. I agree, and I think that my previous approach to the desk was, at times, needlessly polarizing and divisive. At this point, what we need is general agreement about what we're here to do and good-faith efforts to follow those ideas. -- SCZenz 00:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Split "Rules for deletion"

Realised that we should split these as it is responses by RD "staff" that are deserving of full user talk page process, not inappropriate questions. Questions would only go to the RD talk page if there is a dispute about inclusion in which case it stays in until settled. --Justanother 04:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• It's way too complex, anyway. I've done some work simplifying it. No need for bureaucratic procedures. (Radiant) 10:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Latest Draft

I've got a problem with the latest draft of this page... the line "Something like half of people in the United States still go online using a dial-up modem. This fraction is lower in Western Europe and Canada, and higher in many other places." is completely unsourced. This is Wikipedia, we have to cite sources for everything. And "Something like" is a weasel word too, I think. This is horrible writing for Wikipedia and has no place here! [The preceeding comment is meant to be taken entirely tongue in cheek... I think the current draft is great, and hopefully we can get enough people to agree to it to put all this debating behind us] --Maelwys 13:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Purpose of these guidelines

The guidelines as I write these words are very, very lengthy. The result of much wikilawyering, I guess. I absolutely cannot be bothered to read them... and I'm actually interested. Which leads me to ask what is the purpose of them. Is it to help newbies understand the Ref Desks (in which case, IMHO they currently fail utterly and completely) or is it so that regulars have a stick with which to bash people should they contravene the guidelines (in which case, they're probably succeeding beautifully)? --Dweller 13:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, the first section ("Summary") is to help newbies understand the Ref Desks (and as such is a very short and easy read), and the second sectioned ("Detailed explanation") is a stick for regulars to bash people over the head. ;-) (or to put it in better terms, it's just a long exposition on the first section, so that we can stop nitpicking over different interpretations of the first section, and to cover the small and rare issues that the newbies don't need to worry about, but the regulars apparently do worry/fight about) --Maelwys 13:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Can I suggest that the contents box (or whatever it's called) is hidden or moved to below the Janet and John bit for newbies, as currently it's the first and only thing one sees on accessing the page. --Dweller 14:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Please be aware that this first section (purpose and detailed explanation etc) is just my rewite of the long prose paragragh that was in the version by Ten (I think). It is possible that there may still be some duplication here. Whether we need duplication in the explanation section , Im not sure. I would prefer a minimisation of duplication personally.--Light current 00:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The first point of the guideline

Is the most important. And here it is:

The primary purpose of the desks is to promote the Wikipedia project.

This strikes me as perhaps a touch zealous and cult-ish. Thoughts? Vranak

If it's not a component of Wikipedia, why are we hosting it here? -- SCZenz 16:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I'm a bit naive, but I think of Wikipedia as being very much existing for the good of humanity, and that simply building up WP into an unstoppable juggernaut of knowledge and power for the sake of building WP into an unstoppable juggernaut of knowledge of power is well -- not the idea. Vranak 16:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know that "promote" is the best word. But, yes, obviously the RD is part of Wikipedia and thus must support Wikipedia's goals. A number of editors have already identified specific ways that the ref desk can improve the project. I can't see how the ref desk is any more "zealous" or "cultish" than the rest of the project. Friday (talk) 16:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Well -- I view Wikipedia and the Ref Desk as existing for the same goals: to better humanity through easy access to useful (or interesting, or enlightening, or thought-provoking, or sublime) knowledge. One you search on, one you ask questions on -- the goal is the same though: wisdom through knowledge. Just my 2 cents though. Vranak 16:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Fortunately, we don't have to guess. Wikipedia has one core goal: to produce a high quality, free content encyclopedia. So, many categories of "sublime knowledge" are specifically not what we're aiming at here. The wisest guru in the universe could write an essay that would save the world, and Wikipedia would not be the place to publish it. Since we're an encyclopedia, we use only what's verifiable by reputable sources. Friday (talk) 16:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that the 'guru' assertion is patently false. Everyone has to come by their own wisdom, by piling experience upon experience, bit by bit. Vranak 17:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know what you're talking about, or what it has to do with Wikipedia. Friday (talk) 22:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Just saying that

The wisest guru in the universe could write an essay that would save the world, and Wikipedia would not be the place to publish it.

is a red herring. Vranak 23:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Well said, Vranak. We're here to answer questions as best as we can. If that also helps Wikipedia, all the better. If not, that's OK, too. StuRat 17:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

And when the manner in which questions are answered harms Wikipedia, what then?EricR 17:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

What is the primary purpose of the desks than? If it has NO purpose, then it shouldnt be here at all!--Light current 23:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, like I said before, I think both WP and the WP ref desk serve the same purpose: wisdom through knowledge. However, you can't get away with putting anything like that into official policy: it would appear mawkish.

Mawkish: excessively or foolishly sentimental.

Vranak 03:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

New first point

Is now

The primary purpose of the desks is to provide improvement of, and access to, the encyclopedia.

How about something like,

To provide information not readily found in, or not neccessarily befitting, the Wikipedian encyclopedia

Though this sort of negativistic definition probably won't sit well, it's probably more accurate to what the RD is used for currently.

At any rate I'd suggest trimming down Desks to Desk; it sounds better. Vranak 03:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a very specific purpose that I think most of us would agree isn't going to be very accurate. We hope that over time, most of the RD questions will be answerable using information in the encyclopedia. Friday (talk) 03:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think most of them are answerable now. Its just that people dont know how to search! 8-(--Light current 04:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

If its not befitting the encyclopedia, we shouldn't be dealing with it , should we?--Light current 04:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, its for lazy people who cant be bothered to use the search facility, or go googlw, like we do! 8-)--Light current 04:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

How about:

Its purpose is to provide guidance in using the encyclopedia and to help improve its quality and keep it updated by reader/user feeback.

OR

Its purpose is also to attempt to make available to readers information that has been omitted from the encyclopedia for some reason.

--Light current 09:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I give up. Say that it's for developing clown skills. Whatevah. :) Vranak 15:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Light current, did you mean to say that the RD is specifically for information not in the encyclopedia? That's a rather novel idea, isn't it? I think we can safely eliminate such a statement from the list of possible first points. Friday (talk) 16:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, what happens when someone asks a question that is quickly and easily found by a 'staff member'? A curt reply, usually: "Did you check our article on blah blah blah?"

On the other hand, there's also plenty of questions that are simply a product of not knowing the correct terms to search for. This is clearly in the domain of the Ref. Desk.

Then, there's questions that need to be answered on-the-fly and from personal experience, because the information required is simply not suited to the Wikipedian encyclopedia. There seems to be contention here as to whether these questions are to be allowed. I think the good ones are -- the imbecilic ones are speedily removed, as well they should be. Vranak 16:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I dont know the purpose of the RDS: Im just offering some choices. One things for sure: If we cant find a purpose, we should scrap the whole thing. What good is anything if it has no purpose?--Light current 17:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

New first four points

I am just going to come out and say it: the first four points don't say much at all. I mean, the spirit of what is being said is quite correct, but the way that it's said leaves me a bit confused... and the word gobbledegook comes to mind.

And yes, after complaining three times, I should really have a go myself. But I consider myself a bit of a Wikipedian radical, so I shouldn't be messing around with official policy. Vranak 16:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

If you're not inclined to edit it, try making suggestions here. I don't really see what you're getting at, but if you gave suggestions for improvement, I might. Friday (talk) 17:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is interesting to see what you get when you distil a load of prose. Those 4 points are what I found in the original prose. 8-)--Light current 17:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

All I'm saying is that the first four points could be improved. Vranak 17:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

What is it all about (Alfie?). Anyone got any ideas?--Light current 17:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

1. To help locate information on Wikipedia, or failing that, the internet in general
2. To answer general queries — good sense and good taste dictates which queries are acceptable
3. To provide a forum for general discussion that is at least tangentially-related to a query

You might want to scratch point three, but honestly, it is a de-facto feature of the RD. Vranak 18:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a de facto feature of the RD, but not a good one, and not one that should be enshrined in policy. There is a grey-area, of things that are not part of the purpose of the ref desk, but which don't really warrant specific prohibition either... I'd rather see "tangentially-related" discussion left there, and hope that it's at least educational. -- SCZenz 20:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed! Vranak

Yep, sometimes the tangentially-related discussion is pretty interesting, to tell the truth. It's just when things descend into jokes – mostly of the in- or mean-spirited varieties – that we would want to crimp things. I don't know...maybe it's the wine I've been drinking, but sometimes I just wish we could make all of our policy pages a redirect to WP:DICK and accept that that would be sufficient. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Please dont be a WP:DICK you mean? --Light current 01:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Dealing with inappropriate questions and responses

Someone emasculated this section since yesterday (specifically, since this revision). I don't have time to fix or discuss it and won't for several days, but I wanted to register my disapproval. In particular, saying "Inappropriate questions and responses on the desk should be removed through the normal wiki editing process" is not adequate. It was an assmption that the "normal wiki editing process" could be used, without further interpretation, to address content disputes on the Reference Desk that caused all the infighting that led to the attempt to craft these guidelines to clarify things. But this guideline's current wording doesn't clarify anything. —Steve Summit (talk) 13:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• The current version is much better than the bureaucratically byzantine process that was suggested earlier. (Radiant) 13:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Radiant, IMNSHO, the current version is useless. (What "bureaucratically byzantine process" are you referring to?) —Steve Summit (talk) 15:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
    • The multi-step process that involved the user talk page, lengthy discussion on the refdesk talk page, and waiting until the inserter breaks 3RR. That's too complex, you can't expect people to do all that. (Radiant) 15:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
• I thought my change was giving the guideline some balls rather than cutting 'em off. Anyways, it was meant as a starting point and not the final word on the matter (did you see the intermediate versions?). I don't think it's an assumption that the normal wiki-process applies to the desk—instead it goes against a great weight of policy and convention to say that it does not. This guideline can describe what is or is not appropriate for the desk, it can suggest some ways to make the process run more smoothly, but it cannot forbid edits made to improve the encyclopedia.EricR 14:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I didn't say the normal wiki editing process couldn't be used. But if the previous several weeks of heated debate here and on various other talk pages proves anything, it is that there is no good consensus on how that process actually applies to the Reference Desk, in practice. This guideline must provide some useful interpretation of the default process in the particular context of the Reference Desk. —Steve Summit (talk) 15:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
    • It must? Why should the reference desk be the only page with a special interpretation of the wiki process? (I admit, the talk pages have a slightly different set of guidelines than article and project pages, but it's not anywhere near as detailed and draconian.) -- SCZenz 16:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
      • • Why not? The rules for article space are significantly (not just "slightly") different from project space. The rules and interpretations for talk pages are (as you say) different, too. Why shouldn't the Reference Desk (which is clearly a different sort of beast) have some unique interpretations, if not a few new rules? —Steve Summit (talk) 18:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Agree with SCZenz that we don't run around making "special case" rules unless we have very good reason to. Steve, you're right that the conflict in recent weeks should tell us something. However, I think maybe it tells us something other than that we need a set of specific reference desk rules. The disagreement stemmed in large part I think, from some editors either being unfamilar with, or outright rejecting, several "standard" Wikipedia ideas and ways of doing things. As the discussions have shown, attempts to interpret the reference desk in the light of existing practices and guidelines have been rejected by a few very vocal objectors. Friday (talk) 16:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
        • I am not talking about any new or special-case rules. I agree that Reference Desk participants need guidelines on how to appropriately apply Wikipedia's (multiple!) editing and dispute-resolution procedures to the Reference Desk. What better place to supply that instruction than this guidelines page? —Steve Summit (talk) 16:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
          • The guidelines as they stand are a reasonable attempt at that, I think. I think where we've seen resistance is where people want to make a list of specific things that aren't allowed. I find that such rules help the troublemakers and offer no benefit. As long as we're explaining how Wikipedia standards apply to the reference desk, I'm with you. It's when we depart into trying to explain why Wikipedia standards don't apply to the reference desk that I think we've gone off track. Friday (talk) 16:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Saying "Inappropriate questions and responses on the desk should be removed through the normal wiki editing process" is not a reasonable attempt, for two reasons. For one thing, deletion is only one of several possibile actions which could be taken when confronted with inappropriate content in Wikipedia. For another thing, saying "through the normal wiki editing process" says nothing. If all we do on the Reference Desk is follow the normal wiki editing process, we don't need RD-specific guidelines at all.

You speak of "helping the troublemakers and offering no benefit", but please remember that summary deletion of Reference Desk content has been viewed as equally troublemaking. It is not sufficient to cite the "normal wiki editing process" as the sole justfication for deleting allegedly-inappropriate Reference Desk Content. The "normal wiki editing process" does not say, "if you find anything anywhere on Wikipedia which you personally find inappropriate, you may and must immediately delete it". Immediate deletion is but one of a plethora of wikiprocess-sanctioned responses. We need to come to some consensus on, and document, the way we use those processes on the Reference Desk, otherwise all of this discussion and attempted guideline-writing will have been for nought. —Steve Summit (talk) 17:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Alright. I changed "removed" to "dealt with". Whether this helps much, I don't know. Here's the rub, as I see it- standards for this will emerge through practice. We don't make them up ahead of time. When we see a repeated pattern, we write it down and it comes a guideline. I don't think there's much chance we can agree on anything more specific than "dealt with through normal wiki process" at this time. Those who think they can, are of course free to try. Friday (talk) 17:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Your point is well taken, but: it's not as if we invented the Reference Desk yesterday. Various people believe they have a good notion of how it does or should work (including dealing with inappropriate conduct), and these notions are indeed based on long, actual practice.

Now, it's true, not all of those notions have the same level of consensus around them, so there are plenty of things still to be worked out going forward. And here's another rub: I think it has been shown (based on actual, practical experiments by SCZenz, you, and Hipocrite) that systematic deletion of "inappropriate" content doesn't work very well.

(That's all from me on this for a while; there are some other things I have got to be doing.) —Steve Summit (talk) 18:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I will not be a party to making policy that's based on the persistent refusal of specific users to accept the wiki process. It is non-negotiable, even if I were willing to negotiate it. -- SCZenz 18:07, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think there are two responses possible for inappropriate comments, and it is a matter of judgement which to use when:

1. wildly inappropriate comments should be deleted, and a (polite) note left on the commenter's talk page
2. less than wildly inappropriate comments should be (politely) questioned on the commenter's talk page

Any disagreement about a specific comment should be resolved on the commenter's talk page, and if either party is unsatisfied with the resolution the issue should be brought to the RD talk page. If someone deletes a comment of yours and you disagree, don't re-add it without discussing it first. If someone asks you about a comment you made, think about modifying or deleting it. I would call this the "wiki" way. BE BOLD, but not reckless. I suggested a while ago we replace inappropriate comments with a template indicating a comment was deleted, but haven't gotten around to creating it yet. If folks are polite to each other, I don't see a particular need for such a template but if the notion of someone using their judgement to delete comments (and notifying the commenter) is simply abhorrent to the folks who frequent this page I'd be happy to create such a template. -- Rick Block (talk) 00:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

This sounds good. The guidelines are mostly just good for a laugh, but I think the point of it all is to decide what is done when they (or the spirit of them) is flagrantly violated. And the suggestions above basically cover it. →Vranak←

Length of guidelines

I am aware that they are too long. At the moment I am still trying to itemise and clarfiy all the points that were inclued in Tens version. Once we have completed clarifiction, it will be easy to see redundancies and eliminate them, but I dont want to start chopping things out just yet in case I throw out the baby.

I suspect the last section is where some major savings can be made, but I have not really started to clarify that bit yet! Bear with me, and of course please leave any comments on my edits here. 8-)--Light current 14:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Am I the only one?

Am I the only one? The only one that thinks that this entire process is pretty much about whether or not the below exchange (from here) is appropriate?

I think it's simply a matter of choosing the most healthy option available. As Doritos are non-perishable, cheap as borscht, and available everywhere, it's a reasonable choice, despite the fact that they are not as healthful as say, fresh sushi. Vranak 02:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Is borscht cheap ? I've never checked out the price (because the thought of it just leaves me cold). StuRat 12:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Is borscht cheap? Heck, its price can't be beet! Atlant 13:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you red too much into my reply. :-) StuRat 01:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I am overstating the case a bit. But again, I do not think that any policy re the desks can move forward until this issue is handled for once and for all, at least among ourselves. Above you see a harmless bit of banter. It does not insult women, gays, or Scientologists. It started with an on-topic reply, then continued with off-topic free-association and "harmless" plays on words and puns.

Stu, if you want to make any lists I think you would safe to put that threadlette on your page and classify us as thinking it appropriate (or OK), inappropriate, or undecided/neutral.

Personally, I have to come down on weak inappropriate. Not because I dislike banter. I LOVE banter. But so does just about everyone else here. The regulars. The lurkers. The n00bs. The saints. The dicks. We are all witty SOBs (and DOBs). So unless we want to open up every single question to multiple off-topic free-association and "harmless" plays on words and puns; if we do not want that (and I, for one, certainly don't) then we must deny it to all. That is only fair isn't it? That thread did not continue because, for one reason, lots of people here do not think adding to such is appropriate and we refrain from doing so.

Stu, what we really need is a "chat channel", or a back room, or some mechanism to have a sidebar chat while the question answering continues in the foreground. I don't think we are going to get that (laff). The next best thing we already have - our talk page. Here is my idea. If you want a side bar discussion then put a link in the main question like this

I think it's simply a matter of choosing the most healthy option available. As Doritos are non-perishable, cheap as borscht, and available everywhere, it's a reasonable choice, despite the fact that they are not as healthful as say, fresh sushi. Vranak 02:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Sidebar at User_talk:Justanother#Chips --Justanother 02:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

So, can I get agreement that there is a better way to handle our desire to have friends and make jokes than 1) inserting them willy-nilly in the answer stream, or 2) deleting them on sight? Can I get agreement that we need to fix this issue first? Because many of the people most invested in this process are also those most invested in their opinion on this question. I think I have a good compromise here. What do you think? Group hug!! --Justanother 02:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

My take on this is that simply being unhelpful and off-topic puts an edit somewhere in that "uncertain" range. Call it 50%. There's no particular reason to keep it or remove it. If the comment could also plausibly cause harm, this tilts the scales by some amount, depending on circumstances. This is where we use individual judgment. If people joke around elsewhere, I'll think they're silly but I really won't care. When people joke around on the reference desk, I'll want to keep a close eye on it to be sure it's a "sensible sense of humor". The reference desk needs to be an accessible, newbie-friendly place. Notice the amount of irrelevant chattiness that goes un-commented on. When someone goes to the trouble to remove something, it's usually been because there was a plausible case for it being harmful. Friday (talk) 02:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

On the one hand, Justanother is right, this is pretty much the fundamental issue, and the borscht exchange is a very nice example. But on the other hand, I don't think we can decide these cases once and for all in isolation, and I think it sets up a false dichotomy to even try.

We are never going to have a guideline that says "no humor is allowed" or "all humor is allowed". It is always going to be something like "some humor is allowed, in moderation". But what does "in moderation" mean? It depends. For one thing, it depends on how many painful puns had already been posted on the Reference Desk that day in other threads... —Steve Summit (talk) 03:49, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

It also depends on whether any jokes are potentially offensive. I wouldn't have worried much about the exchange above. So I don't think the fundamental issue is quite what you describe. -- SCZenz 05:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The standard we decided on quite some time ago was that jokes and banter are OK, so long as they don't interfere with getting the correct answer. Thus, any jokes or banter inserted after a good answer is given, can't possibly interfere. Those inserted before, could, however, if the discussion moves on to a new topic, leaving the original question unanswered, with readers assuming it was answered, due to the length and number of "replies". I suggested adding a template like this when this happens:

Humor and side discussions are fine, but this question also deserves a serious answer, does anybody have one ?

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

StuRat 15:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

a vision

I think the fundamental issue we need to resolve is actually just how to reach a good-faith consensus. I hate polarizing the issue with boxes like this, but if for notational convenience we speak of the "banterers" and the "critics", we need to find a way for the banterers to say, "we agree that the banter can get out of hand, and we're going to try -- really try -- to keep it to an acceptable minimum", and have the critics believe it. We need to find a way for the critics to say, "we're not trying to take over the reference desk or put straitjackets on everyone or delete everything we don't like, we're just concerned about off-topic content which doesn't help the project, and may hurt", and have the banterers believe it. We need to make sure that the banterers won't take criticism of a borderline joke, or the occasional deletion of the occasional truly objectionable off-topic comment, as a personal attack or a call to arms. We need to make sure that the critics are seeing the big picture, are not out to "fix" every borderline case that happens to catch their eye. Most importantly, I think we need to have both sides (a) come to a pretty solid, shared, good-faith understanding (based on whatever guidelines we can come up with here) of what is and isn't appropriate, and (b) agree that polite critiques of borderline cases will be listened to and acted on, such that those polite critiques will be effective in affecting future Reference Desk content, such that polite critiques can be used instead of outright deletion. —Steve Summit (talk) 04:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC) [edited 05:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)]

May I just say that the term "deletionists" here is was rather bothersome, although I don't think you meant any offense. "Deletionist" refers to m:Deletionism, which is a position regarding quality and notability standards of articles; thus it doesn't really describe anyone's position in this debate. It also implies that people who are interested in maintaining the standards of the ref desk are focused on removing content—which isn't true as far as I'm aware. Rather, we're focused on maintaining content of good quality. Can you please use a different term, or even better, refrain from labelling people at all? -- SCZenz 05:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. (For those just joining us, my "vision" above originally spoke of "banterers" and "deletionists", where it now speaks of banterers and critics.)

I don't like labeling people, either. As I said, I used the terms for notational convenience only, to avoid having to repeat cumbersome locutions like "the people who have been defending any and all questionably-topical material" and "the people who are concerned about the tone and the image of the Reference Desks". —Steve Summit (talk) 05:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

As for your proposal, I would love to have people listen to and act on polite critiques of their comments, and it would certainly remove any need to take them off the desk myself. However... I think the basic disagreement is more fundamental than you think. Some users seem simply to not see a problem with off-topic, offensive comments. I've received multiple comments on how the sperm joke from yesterday/today wasn't really potentially offensive at all (although notably not from the original poster), and the situation does not give me hope. -- SCZenz 05:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

So, not getting a note from the OP saying they didn't find a comment offensive means that you automatically assume that they did find it offensive, and so you remove it ? That's quite a logic process you've got going there. Also note that many of us use the standard of something being "actually" offensive, not merely "potentially" offensive, as that would require the deletion of any discussion of sex, politics, or religion. StuRat 15:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

What are you hoping for? That all off-color jokes will disappear yesterday? That everyone who makes one will, when confronted, immediately fall all over themselves apologizing, and delete it? Or just that we'll see fewer of them in future?

In the present climate, of course people are going to be defensive and claim that something wasn't as bad as a critic though it was. But that's not so bad, if it lets them save face, and if they're also quietly thinking to themselves, "but you know, he's probably right, that was kinda borderline, maybe I/we/they don't need to make that joke next time." —Steve Summit (talk) 14:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

That is a good point; sometimes letting people save face helps make progress. But I worry that there is a divergence in values here, particularly regarding "Free Speech" on Wikipedia, that will continue to raise its head indefinitely. -- SCZenz 19:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

• I think factionalizing the issue isn't helpful. There's a wide gray area in what people think and do. (Radiant) 12:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks, but I wasn't trying to factionalize. (It would have been factionalizing if I'd asserted that everyone was either a "banterer" or a "critic".) —Steve Summit (talk) 14:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The sperm joke had to do with the common (and wrong, like most) stereotype that women seek excuses to fend off their mate's amorous advances. Many people find stereotyping offensive, even if only on principle. It is a pretty good bet that any quip that plays off a stereotype will be considered inappropriate by some editor even if they, apparently, hold a more lenient view on "harmless" banter than I thought they did. So the more general rule seems to be "while a bit of banter is allowable, but not encouraged, any off-topic comment that might be offensive to the original poster or to a particular gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc., e.g. jokes based on stereotypes, may be deleted if egregious or moved to the poster's talk page if not. Responses that fall under the above categories of potential offense must be in direct response to the question asked and must be sourced and not presented as the poster's opinion. Such sourced views are not to be presented for debate but so that the asker can see the various positions and come to his own conclusion." Is that closer? --Justanother 15:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't be offended by many stereotypical jokes aimed at me, like that men refuse to ask for directions. StuRat 15:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Saying things like "I wouldn't be offended by..." perhaps isn't the best test to be using. I imagine that most people who post off-colour or stereotypical jokes aren't offended by their own remarks, and can usually convince themselves that they're not offensive to a general population. I don't think that people are trying to be mean or offensive; I just think that they sometimes show poor judgement.

A better test might be, "Is this a joke I would walk up to a random stranger and deliver?" or perhaps, "Is this a joke I would walk up to a random stranger who is a member of the stereotyped group and deliver?" or even – and I think this is the formulation that is most on point – "Is this a joke I would expect to hear from a real-life Reference Desk staffer or librarian thirty seconds after I walked up to the desk?" People who know the commenter well and who are familiar with the highly collegial aspects of some Wikipedia work are more likely to accept and appreciate some off-colour humour. People who just 'walked in the door', as it were, don't have anything to go on besides the fact that someone just made a weak joke based on a weak stereotype. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

One sexist joke aimed at men is:

Grow your own dope: Plant a man!

Now I find the wordplay in this one very good. I have italicised the double entendre words for those from different countries. Im not offended by it at all. I (think) I know what women see as the male stereotype. Its not a problem to me.--Light current 16:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

LC, is that a joke you saw in the RD or just a funny you wanted to relate here so's we can all stop what we are doing and enjoy a good laugh together? --Justanother 16:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

No its one of mine posted to illustrate a point without making a WP:POINT. Do you like it?--Light current 16:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The point being that there is such a thing as a male stereotype joke and that you are not offended by it? OK. I think most men are not offended by some male stereotype jokes. I think that some woman might be offended by your strong inference that they hold stereotypes of men. Do I like it? Sure, why not. Let me give you one I made up; probably equally as offensive/non-offensive:

If a man speaks in the forest and there is no woman within one hundred miles to hear it.

Long pause

Is he still wrong?

I wikified the joke just in case anyone missed it. --Justanother 17:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Logical fallacy: all women have super sensitive hearing (except those who are deaf)--Light current 19:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Google

I don't quite agree with this:

Is "just Google it" a good response ? No, you should do the search yourself, verify that it provides useful results, and provide a link to those search results, instead.

While I agree with the principle, I don't agree with the suggestion. Usually, when something is particularly easy to find, I don't provide a direct link to Google. I only offer a or several search term I used, which found the results. I do this because I feel when IMHO people are either being lazy or would gain something from learning that it's easier doing things themselves, it's better to provide an extra barrier so that they are more likely to read what's been said, and find out it's easier to do it themselves rather then waiting for people to provide them links so they can just happily click and get what they want. I know everyone is not going to agree but IMHO, there's nothing wrong with making it harder then it would be if they searched themselves.

To a greater extreme and this is going to be controversial, I have once or twice not provided any search terms. Instead, I just mentioned I searched and found the result (with perhaps some commentry of how easy it was). I only do this when the contributor claims to have spent a while searching, but the search term is so simple and obvious that the contributor is either lying or really, really doesn't know how to search. An example would be if the contributor asks, what's ABC and I search ABC and the result is the first or second result. (Actually I can only remember one specific example and in this case, the person claimed to be a college student as well so I felt there was no reason why they would have such greater difficulty searching and it was a homework question.). Some people would suggest it's better to ignore such people, IMHO it's better to basically tell them we read what you have to say, but we're not going to help you when you apparently can't be bothered helping yourself. Obviously this should be done with care keeping a decent level of civility but IMHO it's otherwise ok

Nil Einne 12:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

An answer that says "You could have found this yourself, here's how" is good as long as it's polite. The bit you quoted about just googling is it in the old, "rules"y part of the guideline. The newer part addresses the google issue somewhat better, I think. Friday (talk) 16:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I wrote the original guideline above. Now, I think that your idea of giving them search terms is good, with one possible problem: Different people apparently get different search results when using the same search criteria in Google. We weren't able to determine why this is true, but have verified that it is. Thus, saying "search for 'idiot Bush' and click on the second result", may give different sites for you and others. This is why I suggest linking to the search results list. Although, maybe this varies, as well; here is my search results for that search: [1]. I found 2,050,000 matches when not using any restrictions on language, filtering, etc. Does everyone else find the same number of results when doing the search on "idiot Bush" (no quotation marks) or when picking on my link ? Are your results presented in the same order as mine ? I've noticed that one's preference settings are applied to the search, even when picking a link, so maybe we still have a problem, even that way. It looks like we may have to give the actual site, if we can't rely on Google to always give the same list of sites. StuRat 14:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

What about Google Books, is there any way to link to a specific page with a URL which works for everyone?EricR 19:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

If it's really easy, what I do is give them the result link and drily comment "it was the first result for x on google" --froth^{T C} 19:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

"We need guidelines"

I keep hearing that "we need guidelines" to tell us specifically what's OK or not, because there's been such disagreement. Well, if we're miles apart on specific, actual cases, how the hell are we going to generalize this to a guideline that we agree on? I don't see how it can work, except by leaving the guideline vague. We already have the "have a sensible sense of humor" part of the guideline, which is good as far as it goes, in my opinion. So, I have a suggestion: for those that say it's not specific enough, I invite you to read that part of the guideline and think about it. And, whenever you're tempted to post a joke, read it and think about it again. I'm sure we're all reasonably smart people, and I'm confident that with only a little bit of effort, a reasonable adult can indeed display a "sensible sense of humor", if only they just try. Friday (talk) 15:42, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

If I'm reading the comments by SCZenz and TenOfAllTrades at Wikipedia talk:Reference desk#an idea correctly, we're not "miles apart". If "the desk is mostly on-topic, unquestionably", and "by far the bulk of responses are polite, helpful, and useful", it seems to me we're probably all in good agreement on most of the issues already. (This is not to say that there are no other issues, but perhaps they're not so crucial as the volume of discussion about them would suggest.) —Steve Summit (talk) 17:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Right, I agree with you there- I meant "miles apart" with respect to a few disagreements about removals. If one editor removes something, and another disagrees so strongly as to put it back, I call this "miles apart". But, as you said, maybe the appearance of disagreement is greater than the actual disagreement. Friday (talk) 18:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The thing is, some users believe that the very small number of inappropriate comments have a potentially large effect on reference desk usefulness, while others believe that any removal of comments (except death threats and similar) without the permission of the author requires an extended period of consensus-building and that any removal short of this effort is offensive. There's a lot at stake for everyone in what are done with the small number of comments, and we are indeed "miles apart" on how to handle them. -- SCZenz 03:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

UNfortunately there is little or no evidence for your view. You could be right, but you could also be wrong. If we had some evidence that even one or two words in the wrong place could cause people to stay away in droves, I might have some sympathy with your view.(But we dont - do we?)--Light current 04:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I urge you to review the discussion linked above by Steve Summit. It's a misunderstanding of my argument to state that people believe offensive remarks will drive readers away in 'droves'. The question is one of whether an unfettered ability to post risque remarks (that don't answer any questions) is more or less harmful than offending (and possibly losing) at least some of our readers. I personally find it very easy to decide which side of that balance we should come down on, but different strokes for different folks, I guess. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Mathifying others' questions

A lot of people come to the Maths RD to ask for help, but they're not familiar with the TeX formula system we use so they put their maths into normal HTML. This is, however, horribly difficult to read. Are we allowed to edit the posts of others to convert complicated formulas to TeX so everyone can read them easier? Maelin (Talk | Contribs) 03:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

A major reason that editing question-askers' comments is of concern, in general, is that it may give other answerers the wrong idea about how much the user knows. For example, wikilinking words in the question may lead others to believe the user has already read the relevant article. I don't see offhand any equally severe problems with reformatting math, but I'd personally feel better about leaving the comments as they are; it would probably be better to repeat the formula beneath their question. -- SCZenz 03:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll register a 'me too' to SCZenz's remark. We don't want to run the risk of inadvertently replacing an ugly but correct formula with a pretty formula containing a small typo. By putting the pretty formula right below the original HTML, it allows other readers to verify the copy is accurate. It also saves the original poster from a bunch of undeserved responses along the lines of 'well, of course you're not getting the right answer; there's an error in your formula'. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:24, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, don't change the original, just add a new, prettified version, below. StuRat 14:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Experimental template for marking a deleted comment

I really hope no one freaks out about this, but I've created a template that could be used when deleting an inappropriate comment. The idea is that a deletion would be indicated in the visible page, rather than a comment just vanishing. I'll add a comment below and delete it, just so folks can see the effect. The template is template:delcomment (usage indicated there) but I recommend no one use it before there's some discussion about it. -- Rick Block (talk) 03:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Example comment deleted. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes I like it.--Light current 04:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks good, but it should say something about why it was deleted, shouldn't it ? StuRat 14:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

There's an optional argument for the reason, so that

{{subst:delcomment|url=HTMLdifflink|Personal attack}}

expands to

Personal attack comment deleted. -- TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I would expect that someone using this template might also notify the original poster of the comment; in some cases it might be better to expand on the reason semi-privately rather than start an argument on the Ref Desk. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree this is important. Part of this whole process should be a learning/mentoring experience too. David D. (Talk) 17:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I've now made the URL optional (I think, but it may not be working quite right yet) - it defaults to the diff of the edit that is removing the comment. The "reason" parameter defaults to "Inappropriate", so

{{subst:delcomment}}

expands to

Inappropriate comment deleted. -- Rick Block (talk) 17:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

(the link immediately above will be to the edit adding this comment).

I'm not exactly sure what Light Current's and StuRat's comments above mean. To clarify, I'm guessing the comments mean "sure, use this in cases where comments are being deleted but we still categorically oppose any unilateral deletion of comments except in the most extreme circumstances" as opposed to "use of this increases the transparency of deleting comments sufficiently to address our concerns about comment deletion". Per TenOfAllTrades's comment, any use of this template definitely should be accompanied by a notice on the poster's talk page. -- Rick Block (talk) 17:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I like the template idea. It shows everyone what has been removed and why. The template should hopefully rarely be used.--Light current 19:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Use this template in cases where comments are being deleted but I still categorically oppose any unilateral deletion of comments except in the most extreme circumstances. But use of this template should decrease the transparency of deleting comments enough to make it a non-problem. --froth^{T C} 19:28, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, the revision id getting put in as default is very slick, good job --froth^{T C} 19:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Defaulting the revision id does not work, and as far as I can tell cannot be made to work (sorry, see bugzilla:6181). And I assume you mean increase (not decrease) the transparency. I'd like to see more comments on how much using this template might help the current troubles regarding deleting comments. For example, if the most recent contentious removal (which I think is the sperm one) had been done with this template rather than simply deleting the comment would folks still object as strenuously? I'm not looking to provoke anyone, just trying to see if replacing comments with a marker rather than outright deleting them might be more acceptable. -- Rick Block (talk) 22:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I like this template. Perhaps, if 1) everyone avoids deleting comments except when they're of great concern and (when necessary) uses this template for greater transparency, and 2) everyone does their best to keep posts mostly on-topic and avoids being offensive to no purpose, and 3) we all avoid making a big issue about occasional disagreements... then we have a solution that avoids edit wars and removes the need for giant arguments about the philosophy of the wiki. -- SCZenz 22:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm that seems to make great senz SCZ. Have you been drinking? 8-) If so, keep it up!--Light current 22:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Rick, I think I'm being a bit dense here. Do we have to put the URL or diff in manually of does it do it automatically? If the latter i can't get it to work any suggestions? David D. (Talk) 22:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

You have to put the URL in manually, with a parameter of the form "url=...". It turns out there is simply no way to automatically generate a diff link for the current diff (which seems kind of a shame). Minimum usage is

{{subst:delcomment|url=http://...}}

which defaults the reason to "Inappropriate". -- Rick Block (talk) 00:27, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

To clarify my position: I like the template, but this in no way justifies unilateral deletions. With the exception of extremely disruptive posts (which prevent Wikipedia from functioning), all deletions must be based on consensus. Also, the author must be notified of every deletion, including extremely disruptive posts. StuRat 17:07, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposed text

What do you'all think of the below for inclusion in our draft?

While some degree of off-topic banter is permissable, but not encouraged, in the responses to a question on the Reference Desk, any off-topic comment that might be offensive to the original poster or to a particular gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc., e.g. jokes based on stereotypes, may be deleted if egregious or moved to the poster's talk page if not. Legitimate on-topic responses that fall under the above categories of potential offense must be in direct response to the question asked and must be sourced and not presented as the poster's opinion. Such sourced views are not to be presented for debate but so that the asker can see the various positions and come to his own conclusion.

I continue to try to fine-tune and find middle ground to what I consider the core debate. --Justanother 17:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Needs simplifying .I cant understand it! 8-|--Light current 00:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Bit good joke good; joke stay. Bit bad joke bad; joke go. --Justanother 01:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

This looks good to me. -- SCZenz 06:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Nominate "TenOfAllTrades" for draft co-ordinator WITHDRAWN

I hereby nominate "TenOfAllTrades" for draft co-ordinator. He would be responsible for making all changes to the draft based on the consensus(es?) that we reach here. I do this for a number of reasons:

1) It is disruptive to engage in edit-warring on the draft. We will never finish it that way.

2) Ten came up with the text that we are using as our rallying point.

3) StuRat was previously our draft co-ordinator but he seems to be involved in various disputes and, with due respect, seems to have a POV that there is a battle going on, and that POV is not conducive to developing consensus. I believe that Ten is a neutral party (or neutral enough) and sufficiently interested.

This is, of course, contingent on Ten's acceptance. If he accepts, he should probably work out the mechanics. --Justanother 18:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean the Draft version that I have been trying to translate into simple unequivocal English for the last few days single handed? 8-(--Light current 18:26, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Unwiki. Editing is allowed by all. Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

:If you are replying to me, please indent properly. The above is not a reply to my question.--Light current 19:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

If we respect his ideas (as I do, for one) this will be apparent as we edit. No need for nominating someone for some made-up position. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. Friday (talk) 18:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

If it was back on his user page then he could have this position with little dispute. I should have left it there. --Justanother 18:59, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with friday. And Just, there should be no such position, here or at his user page --froth^{T C} 19:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Well since WP:WINC I do not think my apparently subversive idea should not have been mentioned but I can easily see which way the wind blows so I withdraw it. --Justanother 20:45, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

V>Wise Justa! 8-))--Light current 22:28, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's your loss, LC, cause I was gonna nominate you for "Jokemaster of the Reference Desks" next. So now you will have to continue to content yourself with "Spacemaster". --Justanother 01:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

V kind. But Im sure I dont deserve it (blush) 8-)--Light current 01:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Archives

Here's a perminant link to what were entitled the "archives" [2]. Please don't clutter up the guidelines with bits that have a 0% chance of ever being guidelines. Thanks! Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that those archives don't really add anything to the guideline. Friday (talk) 18:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I added it to the talk page boilerplate --froth^{T C} 19:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. They were put there for a reason, they should not be hidden away. StuRat 16:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• They aren't hidden away, they're easily accessible where anyone can read them. Generally, we don't store old versions of a proposal on the proposal itself; that's what the page history tab is for. >Radiant< 17:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I notice StuRat is repeatedly re-inserting the archives. But, I see that nobody has given a reason here why they're helpful. What's the deal? Friday (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The entire justification for removing the /rules page was that it's contents would be moved here. If there is a broad consensus (not just among the few deletionists who hang out here) to remove them, then I will agree. StuRat 18:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The point of merging those "archives" into the proposal page was that they were drafted by StuRat and others out of agreed-upon points. Ten created his draft on his talk page and I believe that he drew from those agreed-upon points. The reason I mashed the archives on the proposal page was so that people could easily see if Ten's proposal adequately covered those points. I figured that once those points were fully integrated into the working draft that the archives would go away. Stu, what you might want to do now, is delete the parts of the archived /rules, etc. that are well integrated into the draft or no longer applicable and move any disputed bits to the talk page here. --Justanother 06:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Edit wars

The following sentence was added to the "don't edit war" caution in the "Dealing with inappropriate questions and responses" section:

Deleting a post, without the consent of the author and without consensus to do so, is how edit wars are started.

Not to put too fine a point on it or anything, but this could just as easily say:

Posting inappropriate content and refusing to change or delete it when politely asked, is how edit wars are started.

I'd suggest we simply don't take sides here and either leave it the way it was, or say something a little more neutral like:

Always assume good faith and bring any disagreements to the talk page rather than revert any changes (even once).

By "one revert" I mean don't re-add (without discussion) anything anyone deletes and don't re-delete (without discussion) anything anyone re-adds. I'll admit this rule superficially favors deletes over adds, but I'm assuming everyone understands deletes are never to be done without a good reason. IMO, if you add something that anyone feels strongly enough about to delete and you disagree, a discussion needs to happen. I notice there's nothing in this section about using template:delcomment. Do we want to suggest using this template here as well? -- Rick Block (talk) 23:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Does no comment mean agree or disagree? If no one comments in a few days, I'll assume agree and change it how I'd like. -- Rick Block (talk) 15:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• I don't think we need to explain here how edit wars are started. Indeed, if enumerating those ways tends to encourage gaming the system. We all know what an edit war is, we all know we shouldn't be doing that. >Radiant< 16:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the idea that anyone can delete anything unilaterally "if they think it's a good idea", but that restoring the material requires a consensus. The deletion is the first revert of the original material, and it therefore needs a consensus. Restoring the deleted material is merely undoing the damage of the non-consensus deletion. One can assume that the original poster wouldn't have posted their contribution with the idea that it would be deleted. Therefore, there is one person in favor of keeping it and one against, hardly a consensus that justifies deletion. StuRat 16:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• I did not say that anyone could delete anything unilaterally. I said that there are a wide variety of ways in which edit wars get started, and focusing on only one of them isn't particularly useful. >Radiant< 17:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• It is important, as non-consensus deletions are how most edit wars seem to start. StuRat 16:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• • It takes two sides to edit war. You can't blame an edit war on only one of them. >Radiant< 16:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• It only takes one side to start an edit war. StuRat 18:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
  • That is a fundamental misunderstanding. It takes two sides to edit war, and both are to blame. Any kind of language that allows one side to avoid the blame is therefore inappropriate. >Radiant< 09:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that we can get by with a small, generic statement. People can argue about what constitutes an edit war elsewhere. If people want to push their own POV about edit wars, they should probably do this in a user space essay, rather than here. Friday (talk) 16:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability

StuRat and I got into a discussion of how comments whose correctness is challanged should be handled. I argue that if a question-answerer cannot provide a source for something they said upon request, they should either fix their comment or withdraw it. He argues that, to the contrary, the onus is on others to claim a statement is false.

Well, I double-checked what we do for articles, and Wikipedia:Verifiability says that (for articles) the onus is on someone adding information to source it—ideally when added, but in any case upon request. Is there any reason, given that we aspire to provide answers that are as accurate as the encyclopedia's articles, that Wikipedia:Verifiability should not apply to the reference desk as well? -- SCZenz 00:35, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

That standard doesn't apply to talk pages, like the Ref Desk, where all views are presented and respected. We've already decided against requiring refs for all statements. StuRat 16:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I would say it applies to the ref desk about like it applies to talk pages. In other words, yes, we should pay attention to verifiability. Saying "all views are presented" is not very accurate- I could have any number of bizarre, unsupported views, but if I start running around answering questions based on this made-up nonsense, this would be disruptive to the proper functioning of the ref desk. So, while I think there's room for some leniency here, verifiability is a standard we should all respect and keep in mind. Friday (talk) 16:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability does not imply everything needs a source immediately. It does mean that people shouldn't be posting wild guesses if they don't know the answer to a question. >Radiant< 16:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

And that if something looks like a wild guess, a reference should be provided for it upon request. -- SCZenz 11:13, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

And if a source is requested but not provided, what then?EricR 17:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Then the poster should remove or modify it. You could ask, "if they don't, what then?", but I propose we work on that after it's clear we're in agreement on how things work ideally. -- SCZenz 18:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

If you are sure the information is incorrect, then you should be able to provide a source that proves this to be the case. Otherwise, if you delete anything without sources, you can get into petty little wars: "I don't like so-and-so, and to get even with him I will challenge everything he says and make him spend hours looking up everything. And if he doesn't, I get to delete everything he says !". Also note that many responders may be occasional users of Wikipedia, and may very well have been able to provide sources for their statements, but won't be back on for another week to do so. StuRat 01:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The priority here is not making sure we can't "challenge" each other; there's no reason for disagreements to be so personal. In fact, disagreements over content on Wikipedia usually aren't. It's fair on the rest of Wikipedia—and it should be fair on the reference desk—to ask for sources for things that don't look correct. The argument that a source must exist if something is false is simply bogus; I can think of plenty of potential speculation that would be so preposterous that no one would bother writing literature to contradict it. -- SCZenz 08:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure where this idea that the Ref Desk is a "talk page" comes from, but if we're supposed to be providing reliable, intelligent answers to questions, then a sourced reply is essential. However I will concede that linking to a WP article that provides its own sources would suffice, but that may be difficult to police. Anything that approaches an opinion on RefDesk should have something backing it up besides the poster's personal experience. -- nae'blis 18:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Edits by Light current

I just reverted a bunch of edits to the guideline page by Light current. They generally took the form of changing or adding headings, re-ordering things, and consolidating text. I didn't think these changes added very much (if anything, it seemed a bit more confusing), and there was one very large concern: LC removed several nuanced passages and changed them to much shorter passages whose sense fits with how he thinks the ref desk ought to operate. At this stage, I think it's clear that if these guidelines are to work, they need a certain amount of nuance and compromise language... but of course I'm happy to discuss. -- SCZenz 00:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

We DONT need nuances. We need plain language. Thats what im attempting to provide--Light current 00:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Is that why you called a section BS and removed it with no explanation...? Sometimes we need ideas for people to keep in mind, not just hard and fast rules. What you seem to want isn't possible, and you're just rewriting the guidelines in your own image. Try discussing a little more first? -- SCZenz 00:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah its meaningless BS--Light current 00:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a discussion if that's all you're going to say. -- SCZenz 00:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I dont discuss with you any more. Its pointless. I thought I made that plain after your last treachery. 8-(--Light current 00:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I concur, WTF is that supposed to mean o_O Definately BS --froth^{T C} 05:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Since the discussion above has apparently become personal, can I ask other users to look at Lc's edits (he restored all of them)... I think he has removed a significant amount of hard work and good phrasing. -- SCZenz 01:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, this is not going to be the answer you are looking for, SCZenz, but I have compared the current version with your last revert, and I am struggling to find any substantive differences. LC has moved things around and changed a few words here and there. But the "remember you're an ambassador" section that you gave as an exmaple is still in there - LC has just changed "ambassador" to "representative". Do you have any other examples of content changes that you disagree with ? Or or are your issues with LC's edits more around style rather than content ? Gandalf61 09:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The style changes are frustrating in that I don't think the re-ordering and massive numbers of headings improves the page (quite the opposite), but there are also important content changes. He removed a helpful explanation of the environment of the reference desk, and in this edit he removed the phrase "and will endeavour to remove gratuitously offensive material as quickly as possible" without the edit summary giving any indication of this. -- SCZenz 09:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that you didn't look far enough back in the edit history. Lc has made over 50 edits today. Note also that, contrary to your claim, he did remove the "ambassador" section (and it was later restored by TenOfAllTrades after I made my comment at 01:55). You can see the diff I gave earlier in this section. -- SCZenz 09:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

No, the problem is that you didn't read what I wrote. I didn't step through every diff - I just compared the current version to your last revert, the one you labelled "revert to 19:26 version - please see talk page". And I didn't claim that LC hadn't removed the "ambassador" section - I just said it was back in the current version that I looked at, with slightly different wording. I see no point in participating further in any discussion on this page if you are going to be so hostile and combative and misinterpret everything I say. Gandalf61 10:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for intervening Gandalf. But SCZ now says that he was a trifle premature in his comments on my changes and has agreed to wait a bit until I get the page into a managable form before commenting on it along with others.

I have made some deletions and there have been some reinsertions. So SCZ is not completely wrong about that. Where reinsertions have occurred, I have tried to incorporate them in a better stylistic and logical manner and trying to convey the essence without using rhetoric or exhortations that sound pompous. (Sometimes changing their position withing the document).

The main (valid) criticism Im trying to address here is that made by someone who said it was far too long and rambling. I agreed and was trying to fix the page before I was diverted by arguments on the RD pages themselves.Im merely trying to condense the page to its essence whilst striving for clarity of the actual guidelines. In this process I may take out things that I think are either obvious, do not apply, or are stated elesewhere on the page.

Once I have he page in a logical, mangable understandable form, everyone can then comment on it.

It would be helpful, if editors are very disturbed by what I do to the page, that they express their concerns here. Im really only acting as a scribe in a way (but using some of my own sense as well-- which may not be the same as others sense)--Light current 11:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Um... Gandalf, I was just asking you to read my comments in the context in which I wrote them. At the time I wrote it, he had removed the section, and it was still gone... so you can't very well tell me I was wrong to complain about that. There also weren't so many diffs when I wrote it, so I thought the other concerns would be easier to find... I was kind of frustrated by your post, because you seemed to be assuming the concerns I was stating didn't exist because you couldn't find them. As I indicated, there are some specific clauses that are important and were removed. -- SCZenz 12:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, let me try to be concilliatory. I think we've had a misunderstanding. My post was 8 hours old when you replied to it, which kept you from seeing the concerns I had easily because of all the edits made afterward. You asked for clarification, and I snapped at you when I should have explained more politely. So, now I have explained... if you would be so kind as to ignore my frustration above, hopefully we can continue on better fotting. :) -- SCZenz 12:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

My edits

I am in the process of boiling down the guidelines to the essentials so that they can be discussed. There was a lot of repetition which I am removing. I am also attempting to condense the page as it was to long.

The process is nearly complete. Please bear with me. When Im satisfied with its length etc. I will invite other RD editors to discuss the whole thing to death and come to agreements on any necessary modification. Until then I would ask people just to let me get it into a a state where we can discuss it ,.Thanks. Remember, this is not the final version and any thing I have removed can be discussed for reinclusion (in the right paragraph of course) 8-)--Light current 09:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I've been a little premature in being confrontational about this, and I apologize. Once you're done, I'll look at restoring some important wording and removed sections, but the overall order we can discuss. -- SCZenz 09:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The addition of StuRat's old bureaucratic procedure for comment removal is absolutely a no-go if these guidelines are to succeed. We need ideas we can agree on, not restrictive rules. -- SCZenz 12:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Indeed. Additionally, the page is way too verbose now. The longer and more complex a page is, the smaller the chance that people will actually red it. As a side point, LC, please use the preview button. >Radiant< 12:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

How can it be MORE verbose? I have reomoved a lot of xs wording?--Light current 12:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I wont be too much longer. THen everyone can argue about it to their hearts content. In fact I probably wont participate much in the discussion as I ve basically said what I want to say in the guidelines themselves.. --Light current 12:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunatley my work is now being hamperd by User:Hipocrite who is reversing my work without any discussion after stating the the policy had been rejected. Can someone have a look at this? I dont want to get into a fruitless argument with him.--Light current 13:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Nobody's hampering anyone. If you can do a major rewording, then so can he. Why would that be different or problematic? >Radiant< 13:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The fact that he at first put a 'rejected' tag at the top of the proposal [3] and then started to edit it, shows he is not serious about it.--Light current 13:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• No, it shows that he believes one version does not have consensus, and he's improving it to a version that might. WP:FAITH. >Radiant< 13:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Completion!

OK I have now basically completed the rewording etc that I thought was necessary. I was intending to have the deletion procedure incorporated as well but it has been removed twice by different editors, so I ll leave it out for now. I do think discussion is in order asto whether to have this procedure in or not. Any way, apart from the deletion procedure, it seems to contain all the points that were initially mentioned. (unless someone knows differrent) and so it is ready for the main discussion IMO. Over to you lot! 8-)--Light current 13:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Here; I dropped in a deletion 'procedure' that seems to more accurately reflect the way things are actually done here. I think it's obvious that deleting others' comments is something that will happen quite infrequently, and that the problems with each comment will vary widely in type and severity.

Consequently, some sort of one-size-fits-all, time-consuming, multi-step process isn't appropriate for all cases. We already know that vandalism and spam get shot on sight, as do threats (legal and personal). Medical and legal advice shouldn't be happening, but there are sometimes some gray areas around the edges of those types of questions and answers.

Where a comment isn't egregiously bad but probably inadvisable or in poor taste, immediate deletion may be an overreaction, and talk page discussion – with the author and/or through the RD talk page – may be a route which steps on fewer toes.

In all cases, we expect people to use good judgement and work in good faith; those are unstated assumptions without which Wikipedia would not be able to function, and it's not possible to codify that. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Your wording sits quite easily with me at the moment.--Light current 14:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Purpose

The purpose section really needs defining properly so that we can all work to achieving the stated aims. One thing i found was :

(REf librarians) primary duty when they are at the desk is to help library users find what they are looking for.

Would that be our prime purpose also?--Light current 14:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Thts a bit inaccurate really. Im looking for a woman, but I dont think my library or even WP can help there 8-)--Light current 16:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Things a real ref desk does

List of things a real ref desk does (from our page)

Services that are often available at a library reference desk may include:

• A sign up sheet for reserving time to use computers that have Internet access, or word processing software.

• If a desired book has been checked out, one can place the book 'on hold', which prevents the person who has checked it out from renewing it, and the person who placed the 'hold' is notified when the book has been returned. (Some libraries provide this service at the circulation desk)

• Interlibrary loan of books and other material from other branch libraries in the same library system, or from a cooperating library anywhere in the world. (Some libraries provide this service at the circulation desk)

• The opportunity to recommend that the library purchase something for its collection that it doesn't have, which may be needed or of interest to other library users.

The librarian who sits at the reference desk can usually do the following by virtue of their professional training and experience:

• The librarian can look up a brief, factual answer to a specific question.

• The librarian can use the catalogue to find out whether the library owns an item with a particular title or author, or that contains a short story, chapter, song, or poem with a particular title, or to compile a list of books by a particular author or on a particular subject.

• The librarian can briefly teach the user how to use the catalogue and how to use its advanced features, or recommend the proper subject words or terms that are used in the catalogue for the topic the user has in mind.

• The librarian can often take the library user directly to the shelves with books on a certain topic without using the catalogue.

• The librarian is familiar with the contents of hundreds of reference books, and can recommend books that might contain the answer to a particular question.

• The librarian can teach the library user to use online databases such as magazine and newspaper articles, and recommend words and search strategies for the topic the user has in mind.

• The librarian can recommend reliable web sites, give advice on searching the Internet for information, and evaluate the reliability of the information on web sites.

• If the library doesn't have information on a given topic, or if the library user wants more information, the librarian can refer the library user to another library or to an organization that can be contacted by phone or mail.

I have struck out what we cant or dont need to do. So maybe we should be doing all the rest? --Light current 14:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Translating into Wikipediaspeak

OK now translating the above into Wikipedia language we have:

1. Instead of purchasing this would mean commisioning new articles
2. We give direct answers to the question without referral.
3. We look ourselves for the info and then refer the OP to the correct article.
4. We tell the OP how to find the answer himself.
5. We give a direct link to our page with no explanatory info.
6. We recommend the OP searches in a number of places by providing links or categories.
7. We recommend ext links to look at or say go Google
8. Hmm! I dont think we're going to refer to another encyclopedia are we?

Anyway those are my translations of the Ref Librarian tasks. Now which ones should we be doing or not doing? Im not fussy- I just want to know what the purpose of the Rds is.--Light current 16:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Which part did you paraphrase to get number two? Your list of librarian tasks does not appear to have them answering questions without referral, however, I agree that is what often happens here. David D. (Talk) 16:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I paraphrased this:

The librarian can look up a brief, factual answer to a specific question. 8-)--Light current 16:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

OK that makes sense, but is that without referral? David D. (Talk) 16:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Well i use the term 'referral' to mean that the librarian refers you to the book rather than gives you the answer herself! She may look it up for you but I dont call that referral. Do you? I use the usual meaning of the term refer.--Light current 16:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I guess I was thinking that if the librarians "look up" the info it would be strange for them not to show you the source. Without referral implies they give the answer off the top of their head, or head off into the stacks and come back with an answer while you wait at the desk. I have never seen a librarian do either. David D. (Talk) 16:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Well they may know things off the top of their head, but I presume they check before giving you an answer. The usual answer at my library is ; I dont know about that! 8-(--Light current 17:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. That would probably true for anyone doing such a job. David D. (Talk) 19:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Appeal

Can I make an appeal to ALL interested parties to consider carefully and comment on both the desired purpose of the RDs (options above) and the draft guidelines which I have basically finished messing with (for now).

I think the former is more important as, without knowing our purpose, it will be rather difficult stating how we are going to achieve it. So over to you again! --Light current 16:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by not knowing our purpose? I think it is very clear that the purpose is to help people find information. How that is achieved will differ depending on the type of question. You seem to be trying to define the latter not the former. David D. (Talk) 16:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Well no 'its not as simple as that' I think many would say. Some people want it to help WP in some way. Just answering Qs aint gonna do that!--Light current 16:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Answering questions does not help wikipedia? That's not how I see it at all. You point people to appropriate pages in wikipedia. If those users are happy there will be less bad press. If they are happy they might contribute to the encyclopedia too. In short, if all the ref desk did was to answer questions it would still be a very effective recruiting and marketing tool.

Layered onto this is that in the process of answering questions some of the lower quality wikipedia content is identified. I am sure we have all improved articles based on our experience of researching an answer. So on top of marketing and recruiting you can add development. That is already an impressive list with out changing a thing. David D. (Talk) 16:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

OK More comments needed please--Light current 16:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Why is no one interested in talking about the guidelines when Im not editing them? 8-?--Light current 08:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe people think they are OK? Or they think they think the puposes are obvious? If that was the case there would be little point discussing these things. David D. (Talk) 19:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I really doubt that everyone thinks they are perfect. Anyway we'll wait...--Light current 21:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, but if you want this to keep reappearing on peoples watchlist then you have to write something. I suppose adding or deleting a space would work too. David D. (Talk) 22:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes you are of course correct! 8-)--Light current 22:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Australia

Why is Australia named Australia . What does the word mean. Where did it come from.

I have reposted this question at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Australia where you are more likely to get a good answer. David D. (Talk) 19:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, wikipedians, don't remove this so the OP can find the redirect if they bookmarked this page. --froth^{T C} 05:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Rejected

The goal of this guideline is to provide a brightline test such that troll-enabling refdeks chatters can try to drive off people who believe in WP:ENC. It will never pass muster. Unless someone can demonstrate that the guideline will not be used to enable bad behavior, it is clearly rejected. Hipocrite - «Talk» 03:43, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I notice that lightcurrent is trying to play revert games with me. This proposal is rejected regardless of my unwillingness to engage in revert wars with a disruptive user. Hipocrite - «Talk» 03:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It is still a proposal. No consensus has yet been reached. But there will be some sort of consensus.--Light current 03:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

There is strong consensus that this guideline is unnecessary and disruptive. Hipocrite - «Talk» 03:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Where is this consensus expressed?--Light current 03:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I have substantial experience in areas other than the reference desk and believe I have accurately evaluated the communities' likely reaction to this abortive and wasteful process. Hipocrite - «Talk» 03:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

OK we'll see. But till then please dont pre-empt the outcome. Thanks 8-)--Light current 03:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

• Without evaluating the communities' likely reaction, I must nevertheless point out that there doesn't appear to be consensus over the wording of this page. If agreement cannot be reached on that, it follows that the page is rejected. Note that it's not "consensus opposed to a proposal" that makes it rejected, it's "lack of consensus in support" (WP:POL) >Radiant< 10:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Also without evaluating the communities' reaction, I'll note that some of the most historically-contentious sections – stuff relating to removal of comments – is actually starting to show signs of buy-in. If you want to remove the {proposed} tag because you think the guideline is still in flux, that's fine—but I don't think it's appropriate to slap a {rejected} on while things are still under active construction. Not to be flip, but if we're getting towards something that Light current, Gandalf61, and I can all agree on, then we're in not bad shape. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:27, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

You appear to be unaware of this use of the guidelines. Your fears about the purpose of the creation of the guideline is not only founded, but proven. Codification of minimum standards of behavior will be used to justify behavior that is no more than the minimum. As such, agreeing to these guidelines, in any form is harmful to the encyclopedia. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see that people misunderstanding/misusing guidelines means that the guidelines aren't good- I see it rather as a sign of a problem editor. Heck, there's long-standing and widely-accepted consensus about a lot of things that editors often ignore. In other words, if editors refuse to do things the "wiki way", this doesn't mean the wiki way is what's broken. Friday (talk) 15:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly right, Friday. While in an ideal world, we'd just be able to run the encyclopedia solely on the five pillars and WP:DICK and good behaviour would logically and reasonably follow, it sometimes helps to have more specific guidelines for specific situations. Some people need a bit more structure and guidance, and nobody wants to have to rebuild and derive all the rules from first principles every time a question of behaviour comes up. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Some people need it, but I must admit I'm just about done with the hand-holding here. Friday (talk) 18:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Is that Goodbye--Light current 21:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Friday, you have gone too far. "Hand-holding" indeed ! I will put up with many things, but I have to say I find it grossly offensive when you refer to me as if I were a naughty child. For the record, I have contributed actively to Wikipedia for over three years; in real life I am an adult with a responsible job, house and family; and I believe I have conducted myself throughout this debate with politeness and civility. So please do not use such arrogant and condescending language. I do not need to have my hand held by you or anyone else. Gandalf61 10:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Whoa—Friday didn't specifically address his remark to you, and I'm certain that he didn't mean for it to be offensive. In any case, I don't think you'd disagree that some of the behaviour around this issue has been rather childish at times. I think we can all understand that some people might be frustrated by the pettiness and petulance that has sometimes erupted, and Friday was just expressing some of that frustration.

Can we go back to talking about guidelines, now? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:45, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Ten, Friday hid behind the weasel words "some people", but we all know who he was talking about. I don't see him saying he didn't include me in "some people". It doesn't matter whether Friday meant to be offensive - the fact is I am offended by his patronising words, in the same way you are offended when people refer to you as a deletionist. Now that I have pointed this out, an appropiate and mature response from Friday would be to apologise and agree to choose his words more carefully in future. Gandalf61 20:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Meanwhile, back in the jungle...

Unsurprisingly, the debate over Reference Desk guidelines is also raging on talk pages other than this one. In particular, here are two "position statements" from elsewhere which probably belong here. When I have time, I'll see how compatible they are with the evolving guidelines, and perhaps try to integrate them with the evolving guidelines (unless someone beats me to it...). —Steve Summit (talk) 17:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

ideas from elsewhere by User:Ummit

[This is from Wikipedia talk:Reference desk#"on Holy Wars, and a plea for peace", and it's possible that further discussion on these ideas has occurred there.]

I think we all have to agree on five things going forward.

1. What the Reference Desks are for, what the expected norms for participation are. These have been extensively discussed, and I think there's pretty good consensus on them. In particular, excessive speculation, Original Research, and humor are all discouraged, although limited amounts of all three of these are appropriate under certain circumstances.
2. That the guidelines are not perfect, received on stone tablets, or all-encompassing. None of the Reference Desks is ever going to be a paragon of what any one observer might wish it to absolutely be. The guidelines are loose and subject to interpretation. From time to time people are going to make mistakes.
3. That when people do make mistakes, gentle reminders are appropriate.
4. That good faith is the norm: gentle reminders will, in fact, be applied gently, and only when they're needed.
5. That good faith is the norm: a recipient of a gentle reminder will receive it graciously, will not assume he's being ganged up on. The appropriate response to a gentle reminder is almost always along the lines of "I'm sorry, I'll try to be more careful next time." [Footnote: there's a delicate little diplomatic balance here. The recipient should say this, without argument, even if he doesn't agree 100% with the reminder. The issuer should accept the apology in good faith, should not insist that the recipient grovel contritely, should not evince fears that the recipient is only going to make the same "mistake" again next time. We'll worry about that next time.]

If everybody can unreservedly agree to all five of these, I think we have a decent chance of putting all the acrimony behind us, and moving forward with Reference Desks we can all enjoy and be proud of. The various policies and agreements do not absolutely guarantee perfectly harmonious success -- nothing on this vale of tears can ever guarantee that -- but they should be workable, and we should be able to understand and deal with any exceptions as they arise.

In particular, here are two exceptions that might arise, and how we might deal with them.

• If person A, holding some kind of grudge against person B, systematically issues "gentle reminders" about every one of person B's posts, that is probably a bad-faith action, and subject to RfC or other dispute resolution. (The exception would be if all observers agree that person B's contributions are all inappropriate.)
• If the recipient of a gentle reminder treats it as a personal attack, and begins attacking the issuer of the reminder or otherwise raising an argumentative ruckus, that is probably a bad-faith action, and subject to RfC or other dispute resolution.

I've got some more to say on this, but that's enough from me for now. —Steve Summit (talk) 05:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• I strongly endorse this sensible proposal and am very willing to be first to step up and pledge to adhere to its spirit in future. Rockpocket 07:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• I absolutely Endorse it and wholeheartedly agree to do my utmost to abide by it. Anchoress 07:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• With hope. Hipocrite - «Talk» 12:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• Excellent. --Dweller 12:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• Sounds like a great plan to me. Friday (talk) 19:52, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• I oppose this, at least the part about having to apologize when you haven't actually done anything wrong, only husbands have to do that. :-) StuRat 13:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

ideas from elsewhere by User:TenOfAllTrades

[This is from Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/StuRat 2#TenOfAllTrades' response, and it's possible that further discussion on these ideas has occurred there.]

Here's a quick-and-dirty sketch of where I stand.

1. 'Censorship' is a loaded word rife with connotations, and is best avoided in good-faith discussions. Once people start throwing 'censorship!' cries about, the discussion is only one or two steps from getting Godwinned.
2. Nobody believes that they can or should remove every comment that they dislike; by the same token, nobody believes that every edit to the Ref Desk should remain there. At Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#On_removal_of_answers.2C_or_even_questions, there is a short list of comment types that we can and should remove without question. Other types of comments may be removed, in my opinion, after discussion.
3. Edit warring is bad, whether to add or remove something, and particularly when one is standing on a stubborn point of principle rather than trying to improve the Desk or encyclopedia.
4. Admins aren't infallible, but they have been vetted by the community. Admins generally have a greater breadth and depth of experience with Wikipedia policy and practice than a randomly selected editor. Dismissing an admin's good-faith opinion on policy out-of-hand does both parties a disservice.
5. Straw polls are one method of many to attempt to assess community opinion on a subject. When used appropriately – allowing adequate time for discussion and alternate opinions, and accurately representing the issue at hand – they can be a useful tool.
6. Reference Desk answers with links to sources and background information are always preferred to answers without. Editors who present their own opinions as assertions of fact without providing references or any indication of their own qualifications should do so with extreme care, and should be unsurprised if other editors request clarification or references for unsupported statements. Editors should refrain from offering unsupported opinion after referenced answers have been provided. Like everything else on Wikipedia, Ref Desk responses should be treated as suspect until supported by citation.
7. The goal of any edit to the Ref Desk – or anywhere else on Wikipedia – should be to provide a net benefit, be it the addition of useful material or the removal of harmful stuff. This may sometimes be a complex judgement, which requires weighing the value to questioners on the Ref Desk, the sensibilities of readers and answerers on the RD, editors' histories, etc.
8. The purpose of the Ref Desk is to answer questions. Providing a positive experience to new editors (many people have their first Wikipedia experience on the Ref Desk) is a key part of that. We can best accomplish these goals by keeping the Ref Desk a friendly, civil environment chock full of detailed, descriptive, and well-referenced answers (with a bit of a sense of humour). Both Wikipedia and the Ref Desk serve the common goal of providing info to users.

TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with these statements, but I still see a problem: The people giving these well-reasoned statements don't really need a guideline- they already understand what to do here. The folks that maybe do need a guideline probably won't benefit from one, because they really need a set of exact, strict rules. Maybe I'm saying nothing more than "interpret all rules" and "use common sense", but some editors here seem unwilling to accept those longstanding traditions. Friday (talk) 17:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

These statements are good. Certainly my hobby horse is fully addressed by number 6. With respect to humour, i agree a bit is great. But when it descends into crudity that is where i draw the line. It's not that I'm a prude, but that type of humour has no place on a ref desk, or wikipedia for that matter. There are much better forums for such humour. With such guidelines in place and with the regulars leading the way by example, there is a good chance that answers never have to be deleted. Then the only issue is the blatantly disruptive questions. Best case scenario is, if in doubt, ignore it. If trollish questions get no answers then they'll give up and move on to more fertile hunting grounds. David D. (Talk) 20:02, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Purpose(s) ... what do we want the RDs to do?

This para in the guidelines is very weak ATM IMO. If we can get a consensus on the purpose of the RDs , then I feel everything else will fall into place. So... what do we want the RDs to do?--Light current 01:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm! everones too busy arguing to actually think what the purpose is of the thing the guidelines of which they are arguing about is. I think the prime purpose of the RDs is so it gives everyone a good place to argue with each other, and give Admins some practice in blocking skills. Am I right, or am I dead right? 8-)--Light current 04:19, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The purpose is what we want it to do. If we talked about what too frequently ends up happening, we'd say it was a place for hungry trolls to get handouts. Friday (talk) 04:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you following me round again?--Light current 04:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The two items currently listed are good, but the order should be reversed. Our primary goal should be to provide answers. StuRat 04:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen anyone object, so I'll go ahead and swap the order. StuRat 04:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. I also added that we can answer questions with info from outside of Wikipedia. StuRat 04:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

What do people think?

Seems like editing has slowed down a bit on this proposal. I know I was one who expressed initial skepticism that a guideline was needed or helpful, but what we've got here is pretty sensible in my opinion. Thanks to everyone who has worked on this. Friday (talk) 06:07, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Not surprising since the only worker was blocked for 48 hrs recently 8-(--Light current 06:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe you will have to present evidence that this proscriptive, rather than descriptive guideline will be helpful to the encyclopedia rather than harmful. Hipocrite - «Talk» 11:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

We need a proscriptive guideline because the page wasn't evolving in a sensible way on its own, so there isn't (and probably won't be anytime soon) a fully sensible system to describe. What I see on the guideline page now I rather like. -- SCZenz 11:19, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• It could stand a bit of pruning and copyediting, but I don't see anything particularly objectionable. What are the prescriptive parts again? >Radiant< 12:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

All mention of NPOV and OR outside of the nutshell have been excised. Prohibitations on unverifiable answers have been weakened. The draft has been used to support bad behavior -> [4]. Hipocrite - «Talk» 12:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• Hm, that's pretty bad, and should be fixed. People shouldn't make up answers, that's really not helpful to the questioner, and hurts our credibility. >Radiant< 12:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• I agree. Where is the best place to discuss Verifiability, NPOV, and NOR in the guidelines? I think verifiability is the critial one—it insures that people who state facts know they need to be able to support them upon request. -- SCZenz 15:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• It's in the nutshell, which is a good start. I also took a stab at adding a sentence about this under "What the reference desk is not". I"m not saying this is the best place for it or anything, but it's one place that seemed appropriate to me. Friday (talk) 15:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• Also, maybe a stronger statement towards NPOV? Something along the lines of: contributors should direct readers to the notable opinions of others, not use the desk as a place to express their own opinions?—eric 16:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• It was this issue that got me interested in this debate. Answering with hunches and guesses should be actively discouraged. People who love to answer all the questions on ref desk should be mentored to stick to areas in which they are knowledgable or do some research (and cite it) if they wish to answer in areas where they have little or no knowledge. David D. (Talk) 19:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• What the heck is a "structured reference interview"? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

It was just linked- but I'd never heard of this. I don't see that mentioning it adds to the guideline, but maybe that's just because I didn't know what it was. Friday (talk) 16:03, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it adds much either, because nobody knows the full range of real reference desk services. I think the important point is that you cannot get the opinions of your reference librarian, and (s)he will not tell you penis jokes, and those services are not available on Wikipedia either. -- SCZenz 16:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

See Reference desk to see what a real library does.--Light current 18:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Latitude?

I think there's a generally-accepted idea that good-faith contributors using reasonable judgment are given pretty wide latitude on the ref desk. What I mean is, while we say "don't ignore WP:NOR", we also aren't really hurt by questions like "How much do cheeseburgers cost in your town?" or "How common is this slang usage?" Such questions are generally asking for people to answer based on their own experiences. These questions aren't really what a reference desk is meant for, but I doubt most people would want to remove them, either. To me, these kinds of questions are more acceptable than "Will gay people get into heaven?" which should be answered with great care to not let it turn into a big, potentially ugly, debate.

So, my question is.. should the guideline try to talk about this sort of latitude? Or, is this sort of thing better left unsaid, since it's taken as "understood" by responsible contributors? Friday (talk) 15:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

If we're trying to write a guideline for both responsible contributors and those who are not, i think "don't ignore WP:X" is already too much latitude; "thou shalt not violate WP:X" is nearer the mark. That's not how i think the desk should work, but what i think needs to go into the guideline in order to see any improvement. Am i taking too dim a view on the current state of things?—eric 18:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

One factor to consider in answering your question- if a few editors are being difficult, they're already not paying attention to what's written in the guideline, right? That's why I hesitated to support the idea of a ref desk guideline- where we've have problems, it's been with editors who are disregarding already accepted, existing guidelines and policies. Friday (talk) 19:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, there's a theory out there that somehow the Reference Desk is not subject to articlespace requirements like NOR, not horsing around, etc. Some users honestly believe it is a talk space, despite its "public face" nature (and namespace, of course). -- nae'blis 22:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, it is somewhat different than other project space pages. It is a lot more like a talk page than most other project-space pages -- though not completely a talk page. And NOR does not apply as strongly, either. The difficulty here is striking an appropriate balance between those who are (sometimes seen as) "horsing around", and those who are (sometimes seen as) trying to stifle the Reference Desk by turning it into a dry collection of well- but unimaginatively-sourced facts.

When we can cite well-sourced facts, we should. And we shouldn't engage in rampant speculation or debate. But as Cecil Adams once famously said, we "routinely receive questions that not one sane person has asked in 6,000 years of recorded history. As a result, the usual sources of information are useless." Plenty of the (decent) questions we routinely receive can only be answered with liberal applications of speculation and OR, and I don't think anyone is claiming that those questions should all be discouraged or not answered. —Steve Summit (talk) 13:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

But there are also posters that answer because they can rather than because they know.

You're absolutely right. This is a key part of the problem. I do wish there were a way to get those posters to realize and admit this point, realize and admit that it's a problem, realize and understand that they could easily correct it without prostituting their art or sacrificing their souls, realize and agree that correcting the problem would therefore be a fine thing all around, and then do so. —Steve Summit (talk) 14:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Since these points have been made frequently shall we jut try and back off and see what develops? Escalation will just turn ugly. From the beginning i was hoping a more encyclopedic culture could just develop such that deletions, warnings not to take the bait to trollish questions and citation requests would not be necessary. Having said that I am not sure I see a way forward without a deletion policy of some sort in place. But possibly even that will not be required now that everything has been dicussed mutliple times. With the guidelines in place is it possible for the ref desk to gain this culture without being steared? David D. (Talk) 14:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

In such instances it is not unreasonable to expect some kind of research (prior to answering) and citation so we know where their information is coming from. We really don't want to get to a point where the answers are reliably unreliable since it would then have to be called the speculation desk. David D. (Talk) 13:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

In answer to Friday's original question: it's a tough call. On the one hand, I agree that a certain amount of "nudge nudge, wink, wink" is appropriate in a guideline like this. But on the other hand, I'd really like it if whatever guidelines we came up with could be well and truly agreed to and accepted in genuinely good faith by both (all?) sides of the recent debates. Given the tenor of the debate, however, it's clear that if our guidelines seem (as written) to too-strictly disallow things like speculation, research, or even the occasional opinion, some of our regular contributors are going to reject the guidelines out of hand, and the consequences then (if the guidelines were otherwise adopted) could be even uglier than they are now.

With that said, though, I don't know how to achieve the right balance between de jure guidelines and de facto accepted practice, and although I've been reluctant to admit this, it's quite possible that (given the willful truculence of some participants) a perfect balance may not be possible. —Steve Summit (talk) 13:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

A proposal for medical advice guidlines

The following is a proposed addition to the RD guidlines. Most of the proposed guidlines were originally compiled by TenOfAllTrades. I want to see if we have consensus on these issues before I post the guidlines on the policy page. The guidlines assume that we (at least most of us) agree that medical advice should not be allowed on the RD. —LestatdeLioncourt 17:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I like it- I see no reason this shouldn't go into the guideline. Friday (talk) 17:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

It looks good, let's put it in. Once it's there, I might think about generalizing to cover other kinds of advice in some places—for example, bad legal advice or bad advice on handling fireworks is just as dangerous to the questioner, and the procedures for dealing with it should be the same. Also, I'm a little concerned that the definition of "medical advice" is too rigid here, but that's for later—for now, this is a good start. -- SCZenz 18:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you like it. Generalizing to cover more forms of unacceptable advice should indeed be a goal, but right now I'm just aiming at setting up some much-needed guidlines for medical advice. We have plenty of time to improve any aspects of the guidlines to which you object :). —LestatdeLioncourt 18:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Realistically, though, we do need to draw some pretty bright lines to help people understand what constitutes 'medical advice'. There have been recent problems with people interpreting the idea of medical advice both too broadly and too narrowly. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I've struck the bit about there being other venues for this advice; nobody has provided me with such a location, and we probably don't even want to be in the business of referring people to unqualified laypeople on other sites anyway. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

True. Yahoo Answers tolerates questions of this type, but directing people there for medical advice is highly unethical. The only appropriate referral is a medical expert. —LestatdeLioncourt 18:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

On the question of location, this might also make sense as a separate, ancillary document rather than as something incorporated whole into the guidelines. The flavour of this section is a lot more prescriptive and specific than the rest of the guidelines. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with TenOfAllTrades on two things: 1) the specificity of the definition is necessary to prevent misinterpretation. Having an overly general definition is just as detrimental as having none at all, and 2) This set of guidlines do seem to deserve their seperate document. I don't feel very strongly about this, but I think it would be more appropriate. By the way, thanks for all the effort you put in, TenOfAllTrades. —LestatdeLioncourt 18:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I prefer they go on this page. I suspect that, over time, this guideline will aquire other specific sections, as new forest fires crop up; better to set a precedent of having it on the same page than to eventually end up with a bunch of subpages. -- SCZenz 23:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

It depends on where this guideline is going to go, I suppose. If it's going at the top of every Ref Desk to replace the current 'How to ask and answer', then we need be very conscious of length. If it's going to be a separate document included only by reference, then we don't need to be as concerned about size. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we should retain the header as a summary of the guideline, and link to the guideline for more information. -- SCZenz 00:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Where do we stop?

Are we also going to have guidelines for:

• legal advice
• electrical safety advice
• rewiring your own home advice
• gas advice
• nuclear warning advice
• cold weather advice
• warm weather advice
• anything that uses chemicals in the home advice
• walking down the street advice
• driving advice
• accountancy advice
• tax advice
• personal relations advice
• using stairs advice

etc, etc, etc, etc, etc ?--Light current 00:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree we should generalize guidelines for dangerous advice, but I do think medical advice is a special case with special (and frequent) problems. -- SCZenz 00:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Medical advice issues are the most frequent and problematic. We need to have a policy concerning it. Other forms of advice should be discouraged and dealth with too, but that's no reason for us to not have a medical advice policy. —LestatdeLioncourt 13:17, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

---

---

What constitutes medical advice?

Any posted comment containing a diagnosis, a prognosis based on that diagnosis, or a suggested form of treatment or cure, in response to symptoms presented in a question, is considered medical advice.

• A diagnosis is the process of identifying a medical condition or disease by its symptoms [adapted from the diagnosis article]. An example of a diagnosis: X says "I'm having memory problems". Y responds "You have Alzheimer's disease".
• A prognosis is the prediction of how a patient's disease will progress, and whether there is chance of recovery [from the prognosis article]. For example, Y says "by age 50, you will lose your memory".
• A treatment is any type form of medication (homeopathic or allopathic) intended to alleviate the presented symptoms or cure the disease as diagnosed. For example, Y says "try chocolate cake; it works like magic with Alzheimer's".

Dealing with questioners asking for medical advice

1. Verify that the question asks for medical advice as detailed above. Typically a poster will ask about one or more symptoms, and solicit an opinion about diagnosis (What is this?), prognosis (Should I be worried about this?), or courses of action (What should I do about this?). The symptoms will be those of the poster, or ascribed to a friend or relative. Note that questions may be on a medical topic ('What is sleep apnea?', for example) without necessarily seeking medical advice.
2. Politely explain to the poster that we cannot offer medical advice. This may be accomplished using a suitable template, or a personalized message. Encourage the poster to direct their medical questions to their physician, pharmacist, parents, or guardian.
3. Where appropriate, offer links to suitable resources. This may include internal wikilinks and external websites. Be extremely careful not to offer a diagnosis in this way. If the poster has identified their place of residence, contact information for local health professionals or hotlines may be provided.

Dealing with reponders giving medical advice

1. Verify carefully in each and every instance that medical advice was delivered. There's no need to give the impression of hassling someone. (Responders, meanwhile, are encouraged to be very careful in handling medical questions if they've been cautioned about giving medical advice more than once.)
2. Politely remind the responder that we cannot offer medical advice on Wikipedia, and remind the responder that there are appropriate venues elsewhere on the web.
3. Remove the medical advice.
4. Provide on the reference desk's talk page page (or in another appropriate venue) the specific medical advice which was offered.
5. Seek the intervention of an administrator if the problem persists.

When in doubt

• If a question arises as to whether or not medical advice was sought or given, any party (poster or responder) may post the material in question on the talk page for review and discussion.
• Responses will be replaced if a consensus that they do not constitute advice is arrived at. Responders are strongly encouraged during this process to suggest ways to rephrase answers (their own or others') which can be restated to present useful information without offering a diagnosis or other medical advice.

No original research

The "page in a nutshell" box states that the NOR rule generally applies to the RD like the rest of the project. But the only discussion I've seen on that on this page is it being nice under certain circumstances.. definately not the absolute rule it is in the mainspace. Original research is extremely important to the RD, I don't like how that's mentioned as one of the big three in the page in a nutshell. And as for verifiability.. heh. I'd encourage you to check out the computing RD. In computing, "common knowledge" is basically the most authoritative answer possible since things tend to be.. extensively memorized by everyone :) --froth^T 08:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I encourage you to change the language on original research so it's more realistic, although I strongly oppose giving it up entirely. Regarding verifiability, just as with the article space we are not going to demand a reference for everything anyone says—but these should be provided upon request if a statement of fact seems dubious. Without that requirement, this would be an opinion desk rather than a reference desk. -- SCZenz 11:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Yuck. We should be mindful of V and NOR for all responses on the desk, even more so than in article space. There seems to be this idea floating around that since it's at times difficult or not quite appropriate to apply the core policies and guidelines that we should have an anything goes attitude on the reference desk. The first attempt at a guideline here was in the form: "is original research allowed: (yes/no)", and i think some editors are still looking for that kind of answer. We need to recognize that for the majority of questions the core policies are very important, more important than in article space, but there are occasional exceptions. Trying to cover both the majority and the exceptions w/ a single watered down statement of how a policy applies to the desk is the wrong approach.

Part of the problem is i think a misunderstanding of the core policies and guidelines. As SCZenz says above, V does not mean every statement on the desk requires a citation up front. Answering from memory in most cases is fine, as long as you could back it up w/ a reference if needed. Working an example problem on the math desk is not original research, usually there's a text somewhere which describes the general method and could be used as reference.

I think we do need a kind of "absolute rule" here in the guidelines. Absolutely think about how the core policies and guidelines should apply before answering. For the majority of questions we should do our best to provide verifiable, neutral point of view answers w/o original research. The exceptions should be taken care of in the fine print, in the same way ignore all rules works as fine print for the encyclopedia. Think about the policies and guidelines first, but if they get in the way of improving the encyclopedia then go ahead and ignore them.—eric 17:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Medical advice added to guideline

I have added the medical advice section into the guideline page, with an intro of my own divising. What do you think? -- SCZenz 13:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks good :). —LestatdeLioncourt 13:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes I agree looks good.

Minor points re Wikipedia:Reference desk/guidelines/Medical advice's "A treatment is any type form of medication (homeopathic or allopathic)"

• "allopathy" is a derogatory term used by some homeopaths, conventional western medicine does not use the term to so describe itself.
• It is not just homeopathy or conventional that offer medication - there are herbal medicine, chinese traditional medicine etc. Better distinctiuon is therefore conventional vs alternative.
• Needs an "or" inserted between "type form". David Ruben ^Talk 00:36, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

RD talk page cross-reference

The RD talk page has a link to these guidelines, with the line "We are currently drafting a proposal". Is this still correct? Are these guidelines still in draft form? If not, someone should remove the line. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

No-consensus

I've changed the header template from guideline to No-consensus. For the most part, contributors to the desks are simply ignoring this document.—eric 16:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

They're ignoring other guidelines and policies too. This means they're behaving badly, it doesn't mean the guideline is flawed. Friday (talk) 16:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't take me wrong, the last thing I'd want to do is stand in the way of these guidelines being implemented on the desk, but i don't know that having consensus on the document itself is enough. There are certainly editors who are behaving badly, but in my opinion we can't really say that about all who are ignoring this page.

Calling this a guideline now seems a bit like the cart leading the horse, i'm not much in to policy debates, but aren't guidelines to be descriptions of the way things work, not written in the hope of bringing about change? Maybe i'm to gun-shy after the last go 'round, but the last thing i'd want to see is these guidelines viewed as an enforcement tool for admins or too many contributors to feel they did not have any input in the process. My view is that we are still using the wiki process to change things, a few edits along with a lot of tedious talk page discussion in the hope common sense will eventually prevail, or as Steve Summit said: "gradual improvement to an imperfect but acceptable reference desk".

If, on the other hand, it's really just a few problem users standing in the way of acceptance here, the—yes please!—tag this as a guideline and i'll post a link in forty-point blinking neon letters on the reference desk header.—eric 18:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I have mixed feelings on this. Maybe it's just an illustration of the near-impossibility these days of getting people to call anything a guideline. My take on this guideline is that it already has as much consensus as it can get- there's nothing new here, it's just a restatement of other guidelines in ref desk-specific terms. Then again, the label applied to a particular page is no real reflection of anything, so maybe I don't care much how this is tagged. Friday (talk) 18:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The tab was changed by Radiant! into {{historical}}. It is not clear that the change from "proposed" to "guideline" reflected consensus, but the discussion has not died out, so "historical page" is not the right label. I've gone back to {{proposed}}. — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

• There was no active discussion then, so at that point, "historical" was appropriate. There is active discussion now, so at this point, "proposed" is better. If at any point discussion dies out again without reaching consensus, it may become historical again. >Radiant< 11:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Notified on user talk

I made a change to reflect what people do in real life, and what was being said on the talk page. It was reverted. IMO the requirement of notifying people on user talk page is 1) never going to be followed in real life and 2) not a reasonable demand to make anyway. Now, hopefully people will get the idea what the ref desk is for, and removing people's comments will not be common, but we should do it like it's done on the entire rest of Wikipedia. This means people may explain in the edit summary, on the ref desk talk page, or in user talk. I see user talk as mainly for people who do this regularly and therefore it's a user conduct issue. Thoughts? Friday (talk) 17:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what's best here, the last thing i want to do is start edit wars on the desk, but editors are restoring content simply because not everyone in the thread was notified of the removal, and refusing to be drawn in to any kind of discussion on the quality or appropriateness of the content. I created a user warning template for notification, but am not to sure whether to use it or not.—eric 18:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I (partially) reverted that change, also to reflect what was being said on the talk page. Looking at this contribution from one of the more reasonable and considerate RD regulars, I think we're not going to get a consensus for anything less. The situation can't be compared to an article; the edit rate at most of the desks is much higher, and finding out what happened to your disappeared pearl of wisdom accordingly more difficult and time-consuming. But removal of another user's contribution should be an exceptional thing, and leaving a note on their talk page is not a heavy burden.  --Lambiam^Talk 03:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

People who feel strongly that authors should be notified are free to do so. Do we need something more than this? Friday (talk) 17:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we do. Key point here is "deletion upsets people and makes them feel they have wasted their time" (see WP:EQ), and so it is a matter of simple courtesy to explain to your fellow editor why you have deleted their contribution. The edit summary is not sufficient space for a polite explanation, and is easily misssed on high traffic pages such as the RDs. In article space you can reasonably assume that an interested editor is watching the article, and so they will see a note on the article's talk page, but an RD contributor is not necessarily watching the RD talk page. So leaving a note on a user's talk page is the simplest and clearest way to ensure that they see the explanation of an RD deletion. Gandalf61 09:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

We don't do this in article space or (sometimes) talk space. Why should we do it on the ref desk? I agree that a signed comment is a bit different than an article edit. What if answers were unsigned? Then, surely they'd be considered fair game for normal wiki-style editing. To me, someone who gets too upset that their edit was edited is in the wrong place- this is Wikipedia. Surely our interest in providing good answers outweighs our interest in not upsetting people? Friday (talk) 14:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Lazy answering

I've noticed a lot of ill-informed or outright wrong answers being given on the RDs when the correct answer is a simple Google search away.

Should we address this somehow in the guidelines? -- Mwalcoff 01:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

At present the wording that attempts to address this is as follows (at How to reply to questions:

"Answering questions by referring to articles or even reliable original sources is consistent with these key content policies. Make sure that statement of facts in answers can be supported by an article or reference.

Personal opinions in answers should be limited to what is absolutely necessary, and avoided entirely when it gets in the way of factual answers. In particular, when a question asks about a controversial topic, we should attempt to provide purely factual answers. This discourages the thread from becoming a debate."

It seems quite explicit to me but I guess some people are parsing this as it is not required or just don't even see it. Is there a way we can change it so it stands out more clearly? I assume you missed it, which is a sign that it could be a lot clearer/obvious. David D. (Talk) 01:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the respondents should first see if they can refer the questioner to Wikipedia articles containing the information sought. Outside sources is only the second option. If you can't find the information, do not present a guess as if it is an informed response. That is not an option. It is better then to wait and see if another respondent can find the information. Yes, this should be spelled out in the guidelines. However, note that respondents who are native speakers can usually be considered reliable sources in regard to certain types of questions about language use. Also, for maths and physics questions it is often the case that an answer requires a certain amount of "original" work, which however can be readily verified by others. So always requiring reliable sources in the sense we do for articles is too stringent, and therefore the reference to the key policies does not give a good setting. By the way, I think the guidelines should aim at the respondents, not the questioners, and focus more on how to respond the right way than on what not to do. They can simply contain a few sentences on how to respond to various types of inappropriate questions.  --Lambiam^Talk 02:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry -- I should have seen that sentence. I do recommend making it more prominant, perhaps with Lambiam's corollary of do not present a guess as if it is an informed response. I also agree that some questions do not require a source. -- Mwalcoff 02:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Focus on respondents

I propose that we simplify the (draft) guidelines by considering them to be guidelines for the volunteers who are answering the questions. Rationale:

1. Most of the issues where guidelines might and – one should hope – would have been helpful appear to have been issues with the responses.
2. In whatever form, guidelines cannot prevent trolling questions.
3. New questioners will not (and should not need to have to) familiarize themselves with a long set of guidelines. Half of them appear not to read or to disregard the instructions on "How to ask a question" already.

What do people think?  --Lambiam^Talk 18:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It makes sense to me. A.Z. 19:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

That's what we've been aiming at all along, as I recall. It was pointed out that we shouldn't assume the questioners will read a guideline. Friday (talk) 19:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Reaching consensus

I am guessing that someone decided to put the template on the main Reference Desk pages in order to draw contributors' attention to the proposed guidelines and elicit responses. I propose that contributors who don't want to respond to each of the points raised on this discussion page give a basic response to the guidelines and whether they oppose them, support them, or support them with small exceptions or caveats. Marco polo 18:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I will start. Although I realize that I have not always adhered to the proposed guidelines, I generally agree with and support them. I am also open to small changes if there is a consensus for small changes. Marco polo 18:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I oppose them because they seem too ridged and long-winded. People come to the Reference Desk for answers to simple questions, not to read a whole page of guidelines and polices. Tweak the existing rules. Think outside the box 19:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreeing with this chap. I came to RD to get away from a lot of the policy, bureaucracy, and red tape BS that infests most of Wikipedia. Can't we just keep things simple here without expecting people to commit to memory yet another long-winded guideline document? The short bulleted list that adorns the top of each RD page is totally sufficient, in this writer's opinion. Why do we even feel the need to create a handbook for RD usage? It's just rule creep. -- mattb @ 2007-04-06T06:27Z

You're right the short bulleted list that adorns the top of each RD should be totally sufficient. The reason that this guideline has evolved is that some users prefer to have a more explicit description. This guideline is not meant to replace the short bullets. It is for those who need more rules and lines in the sand than others. Take it or leave it, but some will appreciate it. David D. (Talk) 06:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Responding to mattb's question "Why do we even feel the need to create a handbook for RD usage?" : Matt, how would feel if someone deleted your recent RD post here without providing any explanation ? And when you notice it has been deleted and restore it, it is deleted again and you got a terse message on your talk page telling you it had been deleted because it was unsourced opinion and your restoration was disruptive vandalism ? And if you are unhappy with this and restore it again because, after all, you were only trying to help the questioner, then you get a 24 hour block for edit warring ? The RD guidlines originated as a reaction against incidents just like that. Gandalf61 12:38, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, if someone did that to me I'd call them a jerkface, ignore them, and go about my business. Most people who sit around here know what's appropriate and courteous without having to have rules spelled out in lurid detail. We already have an annoying mass of Wikipedia policies that, in one way or another, apply to WP:RD. Again, I see this as rule creep. However, if enough people find it useful, by all means go for it. I just don't personally find this endeavor to be productive, probably wouldn't ever bother to read the page in its entirety, and definitely wouldn't bother to keep track of the day-to-day disputes over two words of phrasing that these lovely guideline pages tend to attract. -- mattb @ 2007-04-06T14:34Z

When the idea came up for this, I also argued it was instruction creep and unnecessary. We have had contributors doing inappropriate things and claiming they can't know what's appropriate without explicit rules, but I think the worst offenders have been banned or have otherwise moved on. The obvious problem is, the people who need this kind of rule won't really benefit from them- they'll just ruleslawyer and continue on their disruptive way. However I can't say that these guidelines particularly hurt anything, except as you say, it's one more page to maintain and argue over. If people followed the standards we already have, this guideline would be unnecessary. Friday (talk) 14:41, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction?

It looks like this paragraph below is saying that the Reference Desk does things that are not its purpose:

"Within our capabilities, we do try to help answer scientific, semantic or historical questions, help explain concepts, and point the questioner to possible sources of solutions or further information."

Now, look at the alleged purposes of the desk:

"The primary purpose of the reference desk is to help the growth and refinement of Wikipedia by encouraging article contributions, additions and improvements.The secondary purpose of the desk is to help the readers by facilitating access to the information contained in Wikipedia."

And there only two purposes listed, so... where does that in the first paragraph fit? A.Z. 19:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The first paragraph doesn't say where these sources of information are. Ideally, they're Wikipedia articles. Friday (talk) 20:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

If Wikipedia contained all answers, there would be no need for a Reference Desk nor for us trying to improve Wikipedia nor for any other source of knowledge. I suggest we take out the words "contained in Wikipedia". A.Z. 21:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

We are here as a Reference Desk for Wikipedia. way. Many other parts of the guidelines already indicate (or imply) that we will point people to external sites to supplement (and to complement) the information in Wikipedia. Though we are available to everyone, we should not state our secondary purpose to be as broad as "to facilitate access to sources of information" (by your suggestion, "contained in Wikipedia" has been removed). This would imply that we are a universal reference desk, regardless of whether or not the problem relates to Wikipedia in any way. No no. That would certainly be a hindrance to the first purpose. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I would never think of the Reference Desks of Wikipedia as being a "guide to Wikipedia". I have been asking and answering a few questions here for a year now and I never thought of it this way. I thought the Reference Desk provided reference and that's it, no matter whether it had to do with Wikipedia or not. Now, if you admit that many other parts of the guidelines imply that we will point people to external sites, then I think you agree there is an explicit contradiction between the two guidelines there. A.Z. 01:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Changes by Twas Now

I have just made several changes throughout this entire document. Many of these changes clarify the guidelines, either by rectifying ambiguous phrasing (as in the very last bullet), or by removing idioms (which the guidelines themselves discourage!), or by using more precise—and more accurate—language (e.g. proper use of 'and' and 'or'; replacing 'seriousness' with 'sensitivity' and 'diligence'). I have also added the important point that questions should be presented concisely and clearly, rather than long-windedly or vaguely (to the best of their abilities, of course, since we are not all native speakers of English).

I must also acknowledge that User:Friday has a couple of edits in the midst of that diff link I provided above. These were additions to "Removing others' posts" ([5]), and to "What the reference desk is not" ([6]), the latter of which I subsequently consolidated into a very similar guideline. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Forum

So "the reference desk is not a chatroom or forum". I don't know what this means and I wouldn't know how to follow this guideline. Wiktionary says a forum is a place for discussion. Discussion is defined as a "talking with other people". So "the reference desk is not a place for talking with other people!". Yet, people talk to each other on the reference desks.

I know it may seem to some people that I'm just joking or trying to disrupt the discussion. I think I understand more or less what some people mean by "this is not a forum", but for me this sentence does not mean the same thing and in some senses the reference desk is a forum. I am just saying: change the whole phrasing and make it clear what you mean. Using less words does not mean being clearer: many times, using few words makes everything obscure and not understandable. Even the people who support a view of the reference desk different than mine should try to make the phrasing clearer so everyone including myself can know exactly what it means. So, when people violate this policy, people won't argue that "according to Wiktionary, everything you ever wrote on the reference desk is content of a forum".

And sorry for the English mistakes. A.Z. 21:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

When we say "forum", we mean a message board—generally a place for idle chat, a place where you are free to express your opinions, talk about whatever, make random posts. Check out the article Internet forum. If we did not have a "no forum" rule, the Ref Desk might turn into this:

A: I have heard a Girl Talk remix of Grizzly Bear's song "Knife". What is the second song that is mixed with "Knife";?

B: It is "Wamp Wamp (What It Do)" by Clipse.

C: Which is off their album Hell Hath No Fury.

Anon 1: That song sucks, you suck!

Anon 2: No, that song is awesome, shut up Anon 1!

Person D: R0X0RZZRZ!!!!!11one

Person C: You are all stupid.

Anonymous 1: No I'm not, your face is stupid.

This cannot help Wikipedia, unless we want to throw into the article "the song has been described as 'R0X0RZZRZ!!!!!11one', but also as a song that 'sucks'. However, the people who said that were both called stupid". In the context of Wikipedia, there would be a lot of unnecessary, non-contributory material being posted to the Ref Desk, and it would be a hassle to sort out the good stuff from the bad. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I did not say you shouldn't have a forum rule, I just said it is not well-explained. I agree that it will be bad if the Reference Desk turns into this thing you wrote, but I don't think it's totally impossible to prevent it from happening without an explicit written rule saying so.

I still think the rule is not well-explained. A.Z. 01:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

personal opinion vs. social opinion

I feel that some questions with seek an opinion regarding a large social generalization should be permitted. This should be distinguished from asking a question about PERSONAL opinion. In practice this often already happens and I think it is not harmful as long as it does not turn into a debate. In fact I think it is one of the things that make the reference desks so useful. For instance, let’s say I’m a prospective foreign exchange student who will be going to Germany soon. Not wanting to stand out as an American in Germany, I ask the reference desk what is generally considered normal street clothes in Germany. This sort of question about a fairly well excepted social standard seems like it should be distinguished from “asking for personal opinion.” Any thoughts? S.dedalus 06:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a reason to worry much about that type of question. It seems less likely to degenerate into an ugly, useless debate than a lot of the questions we see on controversial topics. It's not a reference desk question, per se, but I don't see that it's very harmful either. Friday (talk) 19:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I had written a response to this earlier today, but I somehow lost it. My thought was that "what kind of clothes should I wear in Germany?" is not a question that one would ask a real live reference librarian in your local public library. If one did, then the librarian would probably, at best, redirect you to an appropriate resource. Bring the analogy back here, then, the response would be something like "check the discussion forums at Expedialocitibitz.com". Perhaps, however, the real live ref librarian had just been to Germany, and so can directly answer the question. In that case, the interaction becomes a discussion, or a "chat" if you will. The discussion can continue, but not actually at the reference desk, since that is not the purpose. --LarryMac 19:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I still feel that the Reference desk guidelines should make a clear distinction between these types of questions. After all there is a very great difference between asking “How can abortion not be considered murder.” and asking “What is generally considered to be one of the best representation of film noir? In the first case the discussion is likely to degenerate into an ugly flame war. In the second case the answer is likely to be something like “Well according to the American Film Institute's 100 Years, 100 Movies [7] blah, blah, blah, etc.” I think we have an advantage in some ways over a traditional public library reference desk in that here people can ask questions of several thousand people who may be able to provide unique information that a “traditional” library might not have access to. S.dedalus 21:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

In the case of “How can abortion not be considered murder ?”, a strictly factual answer can be given: "Those who don't consider it to be murder don't consider the embryo/fetus to be a live human at that point, based on the lack of a heartbeat, undeveloped brain, etc.". Now this could develop into an argument, but doesn't have to, so the question itself should be allowed. StuRat 15:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Guidelines for dealing with suicidal people?

I think that there should be some guidelines for how best to deal with suicidal individuals. We often get people on the reference desks who feel that there is no one to turn to, and so they ask for help from total strangers on Wikipedia. In such cases responding incorrectly could easily push already desperate people over the edge. Perhaps the reference desk guidelines should include a list of some online resources that editors can recommend to suicidal individuals. A thought on this? S.dedalus 23:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the volunteers here are capable of helping suicidal people and the reference desk happens to be a great place to turn to when you feel suicidal. Please DO NOT EVER send those people away: instead, invite them to stay, sit around, create an account and chat and also help on the desk! A.Z. 00:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Rather than inviting them to chat – with people who may be well-meaning but definitely aren't trained or experienced in dealing with suicidal individuals – I think that having a list of resources to which we can guide them would be very helpful. We have to acknowledge that some problems are just beyond the scope and abilities of the Ref Desk, and that it would be unethical and even dangerous for us to try to solve them.

This issue occaisonally comes up elsewhere on Wikipedia, as well. Perhaps we ought to have a centralized list of resources and tools, if one doesn't already exist. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd say revert on sight. 99+%Many of them are trolls, and even if there's the occasional poor soul who isn't, there's little we can do for them. We're ill-equipped and it's outside our scope. However, a list of resources such as Ten suggested would certainly not be a bad idea either. I suggest it be put on the user talk page tho, (even for an IP address) and the ref desk content be reverted. The last thing we want is a bunch of people making stupid jokes about it, on the off chance that it's not just a troll we're dealing with. Friday (talk) 00:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a really stupid idea. People do I wish people did not start to make stupid jokes. A.Z. 00:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately they do, A.Z. I remember two instances, one last August or September, one more recent one. Both times frosty advice on how to actually perform the act of suicide as well as cynical comments (and stupid jokes) were added. Both original posts were made by registered users, and not for one second, did I assume they were trolls, nevertheless, they were treated in an incredibly unhelpful and immature way. In one case I tried contacting the poster per e-mail, but never received a reply, though the user continued to edit a few days later. Perhaps s/he was embarassed, and, if I'm not mistaken, the post was eventually overseen (meaning removed in a way that even makes it impossible to view the edit history). I'm at a loss what to recommend here, and would welcome more thoughts on this topic. ---Sluzzelin talk 01:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Sluzzelin, in cases where editors are making jokes about the suicide message I think the only remedy is for other editors to be very diligent about reverting such replies. Perhaps, such replies could also be treated as especially saver cases of vandalism.S.dedalus 02:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Jokes about suicidal people that come here asking for help should be reverted immediately. A.Z. 02:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but they were, and at least one person saw this as an infringement of our "freedom of speech" and wished to reinstate them, and a discussion regarding "unilateral" censorship and policies ensued (not kidding). This is an extreme example, I'm glad we both agree on how it is best dealt with. I wish everyone agreed. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Friday, I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that most suicide messages should be reverted as trolling. I remember reading about one of the few surviving Golden Gate Bridge “jumpers.” He said that he was standing there reconsidering whether to jump or not, when a tourist asked him to take her photo. He thought, there really is no one who cares, so he jumped. I think reverting a ”cry for help” will almost certainly result in an obituary. It is far better to needlessly respond to a few trolls than accidently fuel a suicide attempt. As for putting replies on the person’s user talk page, I seriously doubt that people who are not experienced with Wikipedia would think to check their talk page. The “centralized list of resources and tools” sounds like a good idea to me. Perhaps under Wikipedia: Dealing with suicidal individuals. I would suggest [8] would be a good resource to start with. Is this a workable idea, and are there any other editors who would like to help write this? S.dedalus 01:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

But with your example you've just underlined the weakness of this whole idea. With suicidal people, there is no formula correlating the degree of goodwill of the interlocutor equalling the likelihood of the jumper not jumping. The guy on the bridge chose to take that woman's request as an indication of the state of the world; not surprising, considering his frame of mind. But the woman could just as easily have been thinking that by getting him down off the ledge to get her camera, she could grab him or call for help. It's easy to look at that situation and say, 'Oh, she obviously said the wrong thing.' But if he'd gotten down to take her camera and she'd grabbed him or done whatever, it would have been the right thing. It was only judged the wrong thing to say because he jumped. But HE jumped. HE chose to interpret her words the way he did, and HE is the cause of his own attempted suicide. She could have been completely well-meaning but simply done the wrong thing. Or maybe there was no right thing. I have a friend who was talked down from suicide by someone who said, when my friend asked if she should do it, 'You can do absolutely whatever you want. It's YOUR choice.' Her response was, 'I choose to stay for a while.' Her interpretation of all the well-meaning help she'd been getting from others had just made her feel powerless and desperate. That's my point; when someone says, 'I am planning to kill myself, any ideas?' We can never know if saying, 'Sure, cyanide.' will make the person go out and buy cyanide, or whether saying, 'Sure, counselling.' will make the person go out and buy cyanide. Anchoress 01:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

The phone number in your link is only for the United States. A.Z. 02:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

That’s true , however I would like to include a number of recourses in the proposed guideline page. Do you have any suggestions for international resources? S.dedalus 03:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

A person asked a question about chat-based online counseling on the miscellaneous reference desk on March 29, but I can't find it in the archives. A.Z. 03:57, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this it? S.dedalus 04:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the useful link from that online counseling discussion. S.dedalus 04:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The handy thing is- we don't have to guess which ones are trolling. Regardless of which are which, replying usefully on user talk and discouraging further comment on the ref desk is a good thing, don't you think? My main concern is for the ones that aren't trolling- we don't want to make their bad situation worse. Altho, come to think of it.. even if the original post is trolling, it's still not good to encourage a bunch of suicide-related humor. A real person in a bad situation could read that, too. Friday (talk) 02:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I think there should be comments and advice on the reference desk. I like that idea. At least until someone creates a little Wikimedia project to help all the suicidal people who come here. A.Z. 02:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, Friday, that I don’t think many IP address users even know they have a talk page. Perhaps we could post replies on the persons talk page, but then put a note on the reference desk saying that we have responded to their question on their personal discussion page. We could then include a link to that page. S.dedalus 04:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should develop a standard response for suicidal people. Anyone who claims to be so (whether they're perceived to be a troll or not) could then be directed to that page, and any other comment (whether humorous, helpful or indifferent) would be banned. What would go in that response is of course a matter of discussion. How the ban on other comment could be enforced is also a challenge. As many have noted, some of these people really are suicidal, and the worst possible result would be for Wikipedia to unwittingly (or wittingly) assist a person to kill themselves. It's one thing to be a reference desk for all comers, but sometimes we do ourselves a disservice by taking that to its extreme, by simply telling them what they want to know, eg. a non-messy way of killing themselves. In my view, that is simply not on. JackofOz 04:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Using my bad English, that I wish so much was better right now, let me just say that, to some people, Wikipedia is more than an encyclopedia. To some people, Wikipedia also means hope that the truth will reach a lot of people and that everyone in the world will know what are logical fallacies and cognitive biases and will avoid them, and everyone will find out that gay people have contributed to mankind the same way straight people have. There are people here who have been bullied and harrassed in the real world and, in the place that at the start was just an encyclopedia, ended up founding good people that would help them feel good with themselves. Respectful, intelligent people that care about other people and that, as themselves, want the truth to reach everyone. I know this is an encyclopedia. I know it is not supposed to be for helping suicidal people. I do understand now Friday's worries and I didn't before. I really understand him now because people have made jokes about me and making those jokes can really lead to an obituary. The fact is that... I don't know to where on the Internet you could send all those MANY suicidal people who come here for one reason or another. Who come here to write either on the reference desk or in the articles. Who explicitly say they are suicidal or not. People are just not nice to each other in the real world and it seems that the community of Wikipedia somehow became a little more civilized than the average... This WILL attract a lot of people searching for help. Some of them will press the "save page" button, some of them will say "how stupid to turn to an online wiki encyclopedia" and jump off a bridge. Just please realize how important it is what you are deciding right now. You are actually deciding what will become of some people's lives. Even if they were few people, it would matter a lot. But there are A LOT of people who come here for that, and the number is only likely to increase. A.Z. 07:21, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I have a concern that adding something about this to the guidelines may have a WP:BEANS-like effect on trolls.  --Lambiam^Talk 08:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not only talking about the guidelines of the reference desk here. I actually think Wikimedia should start to draft a policy for this sort of thing. A.Z. 08:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you A.Z. I totally agree. Is it time to bring this up on WP:VPP? S.dedalus 19:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, by all means, if no one has brought it up there before! I am not a native speaker of English, so I wouldn't be the right person to bring it up there, since it's such an important matter and I wouldn't be able to explain everything that has to be said well enough. You seem to care about the suicidal people who come here and to understand the importance of such a policy. However, I was more thinking of Wikimedia, since suicidal people may go and cry for help on the other projects as well. A.Z. 20:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Out of Wikipedia's original scope, but how about setting up a 'Special Help Desk' for individuals who are indeed desperate, and even suicidal? This can be manned by registered members, needing a password to reply (to stop the immature comments and to better know who is talking to whom). These registered members could be equipped with the knowledge of the best places to go for 'visitors', and could use them in accordance with the specifics of the problem that each visitor has, should preliminary talking fail. I was chairman for an NPO that specialized in family counselling in Japan, so I would certainly do it, if asked.ScouseMouse - スカウサーUK! 00:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately I doubt that what you propose would go over very well with the Wikipedia powers that be. It would skirt dangerously close to being considered a counseling service and in the US it is probably illegal for an organization of people with no medical background to set up a service like that. At the very least it would probably leave Wikipedia open to a torrent of lawsuits. S.dedalus 01:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

While it is an interesting idea, I note that such a project – operating within the confines of the Wikipedia project – isn't technically feasible at the moment. Currently we can limit editing of pages to admins only (page protection), or to registered users only (semiprotection); I don't think we can implement the sort of fine-grained control described.

I suspect that we're probably best to confine ourselves to the response that a real-life reference desk would offer to an individual contemplating suicide. We should provide a list of resources and qualified professionals who can help the person in need. Leaving aside the issues of civil and criminal liability that S.dedalus (quite reasonably) mentions, I'm just not comfortable with an encyclopedia project (remember, that's what we're mandated to do) assuming this sort of role. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

As per Wikipedia:How to create policy I am creating a policy draft of the proposal under the tentative title Wikipedia:Responding to suicidal individuals. If you are so inclined, please help me draft this policy as I have no experience writing this kind of Wikipedia page. When the page looks okay we should probably post the proposal on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Policies. From the ideas suggested in this discussion I’ve started to draft the policy around the following points: how and how NOT to respond to a suicidal individual’s post, the stipulation that editors should not attempt to provide medical advice (e.g. "you’re suffering from depression"), a list of public online or telephone recourses where suicidal individuals can seek help, and the requirement that editors should try to respond to suicidal messages on the user’s personal talk page, but also leave a message on the reference desk linking the person to their talk page. Anything I missed? S.dedalus 06:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Two of the worst things we could do to a person who claims to be suicidal are to delete their post or give them a stock reply. Being ignored or getting the equivalent of a "form letter" could put them literally over the edge. I believe standard advice to those who encounter suicidal individuals is to keep them talking, then try to find something meaningful in their lives they can focus on. StuRat 01:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree about not ignoring them. I'm somewhat concerned about us acting as personal counsellors, however. Just as we're not in the business of providing legal or medical advice, I don't think we should be in the business of talking a suicidal person through their crisis. There are thousands of places that are equipped to do precisely that, and we should tell the person about them. If they're serious about wanting help with suicidal thoughts, they'll be interested in finding someone who's skilled in that area. Wikipedia is not such a place. Some previous examples of the way we've dealt with suicidal people here were models of what not to do, with bickering amongst users becoming the main focus of attention. The person ended up becoming incidental to the discussion, which was tantamount to ignoring them. We need to assume they're for real, and focus on them, not each other. But does that mean we should assume that Wikipedia is the one and only place they've gone to for help, and assume total responsibility for their lives? Sometimes the best advice we can give is to direct them to where the best advice can be found, not try to make it up as we go along. That direction would be one of the things I'd definitely include in the "form letter" (an expression I would never have used in this context). If they really want help, they'll read it, and not just latch on to the Reference Desk and make it solely responsible for the answers to all their problems. JackofOz 01:39, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Jack's response. As for Wikipedia not being the one and only place where the best advice can be found, I recently read a related discussion somewhere else on Wikipedia, and one editor, justifiably in my opinion, pointed out that suicide threats here were a form of emotional blackmailing. Maybe Friday was thinking of something similar too. I'm certainly against ridicule or (even potentially) pushing over the edge, but our responsibility should end after pointing users to sources with the professional expertise necessary to help people in these desperate and dark moments of their lives. ---Sluzzelin talk 03:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree of course that Wikipedia cannot provide a counseling service. I mentioned this above in my reply to ScouseMouse. All I am proposing in this policy is that Wikipedia respond to any suicidal individual the same way any good citizen would respond to a person on a ledge. In other wards treat them in a way that will not increase their likelihood of jumping, and then point them to a source of help. Unfortunately Wikipedia has often failed miserably at this in the past. S.dedalus 06:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course we should treat them in a way that will not increase their likelihood of jumping. But the analogy does not quite hold water. Wikipedia is, in some respects, a many-headed hydra, speaking with just as many voices. Who, in real life, would want a hydra with them on the ledge while they contemplate jumping? They need one person. The Ref Desk cannot hope to speak with one voice, and should not try to. We are inherently many. That is why we have failed at this in the past: the lesson, imho, is that we should never have even tried to help, except for your suggestion that we point them to a source of help, which might be achieved inter alia by developing a resource that becomes a standard response. JackofOz 06:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

"treat them in a way that will not increase their likelihood of jumping" is subjective. Suicide threats should be reported to authorities and should not be responded to by any means. In an ideal scenario, I'd like to see them be reverted without discussion. It is not our job to be psychologists, and we may do something unforeseen that actually encourages them to commit suicide. God knows some idiot kid will stumble upon the suicide threat and start blabbering about U SHURLDNT KIL URSELF LOLZ. "I believe standard advice to those who encounter suicidal individuals is to keep them talking, then try to find something meaningful in their lives they can focus on." - StuRat, what you've heard of "standard advice" doesn't cut it in life-or-death situations that often have vastly different causes: general depression, mental illness, chronic pain. The only "help" offered should be a list of resources (phone numbers, websites, etc) and no attempt at trying to, as with any other health issue on the refdesk, diagnose or treat anything. I think JackOfOz is on to something here - standardized template with resources. I'd prefer that it be reverted, then added to the user or IP's talk page so that we don't have newbies coming in and trying to offer counseling that may be harmful. -Wooty Woot? contribs 03:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Wooty, this discussion is now continuing over at Wikipedia talk:Responding to suicidal individuals. It's moved on somewhat since last week. Please join us over there. Cheers JackofOz 13:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

---

Please continue the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Responding to suicidal individuals.  --Lambiam^Talk 07:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Illegal Practices?

Should we enforce some sort of ban on questions about perpetrating illegal acts (e.g. murder, rape, etc.)? I was going to add this directly to the guidelines, but I'm not sure about other people. bibliomaniac15 01:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

To me, it's a tossup whether we want to mention this or not. It might be asking for trouble. It's certainly the sort of thing that would make a question more likely to be seen as trolling, though. Friday (talk) 01:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we could create a template for use in this situation. Something to the effect of “Thank you for visiting Wikipedia! However, we cannot provide you with advice on the best way to rape and murder your Aunt Sally. Sorry.” S.dedalus 01:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

@Bibliomaniac15 unfortunately, instituting (let alone actively enforcing) such a ban could entail some undesirable consequences. For example, suppose the ban is indeed instituted, enforced with 100% accuracy and zero 'false-positive' removal of content. That would arguably be inconsistent with Wikipedia:General_disclaimers, because this track record of banning content could be argued as a form of "advice" about what is and is not unlawful (yes I know, lame argument but it has been made before). Someone could claim they detrimentally relied on the "ban system" to protect them from bad stuff, and they could complain they were harmed if one bannable question actually got through. dr.ef.tymac 21:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I suppose we could just put a disclaimer instead of enforce a ban. bibliomaniac15 01:30, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to a ban on advice on how to commit an illegal act, but only if those activities are illegal everywhere. Prostitution and marijuana are legal in some places, for example. StuRat 01:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Netspeak

I would like to propose that the use of Chatroom language be discouraged and kept to a minimum, especially when posting queries. Reading queries that begin with 'OMG', or 'WTF', and having 'LOL' or 'LMAO' and stuff like that makes me not want to answer them, and I am sure I am not alone in this. I may not be the Brain of Britain, but including language like this reduces the chances of a poster getting an answer from a serious professional. ScouseMouse - スカウサーUK! 23:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I haven't noticed this as a serious problem. Is there a specific desk on which you see this?  --Lambiam^Talk 00:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think of it as a serious problem, but it just seems to me that the impression is that we are all just having a laugh. Many times we are, of course, as we are all contributing to something that we like, but Chatspeak makes me feel like I'm dealing with a teenager who isn't really serious about what he/she's asking. Sometimes this is fine (that is why I say 'should be kept to a minimum' and not 'eradicated'), but sometimes.... I have only noticed it on two of the desks I usually answer on: Language and Misc.ScouseMouse - スカウサーUK! 00:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Givnan, how do you propose that chatroom language be discouraged when we can't even get folks to type four tildes? ~ hydnjo talk  18:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Good question. As we've all seen from experience, getting reasonable editors to agree that a certain thing should or should not be done is the easy part. Getting unreasonable editors to actually do or not do what's been agreed on is the hard part. Friday (talk) 19:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Givnan, I recall the first times that I went on-line and thinking that it was cool to say "i" and "OMG!" and "lol" and other "chatspeak". My own experience suggests that the example of others was extremely influential in realizing that that dumbed down language wasn't "cool" at all. If "chatspeak" is a problem for you then just skip over to another inquiry, don't let it bother you. Let me illustrate in another way, do you really think that giving the middle finger salute to a rude driver will decrease the number of rude drivers? ~ hydnjo talk  20:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

We had specifically talked about the use of the term "OP" before, and agreed not to use it, as many OPs won't know what an "OP" is. I rarely use "LOL" myself, instead preferring a smiley. The one place where I still use "LOL" is where that is my only response, as "Ha ha" just doesn't seem to work, and a smiley all alone is confusing. StuRat 00:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Do your own homework

This came to my attention recently when one user responded to a question by drawing attention to this point and so not addressing the quesiton, and then shortly after another user 'assumed good faith' and answered the question anyway. I understand the reason this point may be included at the top of the reference desk pages but it's often hard to judge if a question is a homework question, and, more importantly, a well answered question, whether it be a homework question or not, is surely more beneficial than no answer at all. I also think this is slightly at odds with 'assume good faith' part of answering the question. Surely anyone with the cheek, for want of a better word, to blatantly ask what seems to be a homework question isn't going to be put off by this notice? So my question is, is this piece of advice really useful or necessary in the 'how to ask a question section'? Johnnykimble 00:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Some questions are in a gray area (they might be homework and might not be), but others are entirely clear. Obvious homework: "Please list 5 arguments in support of X and 3 arguments opposed, with supporting evidence for each claim." Not so obvious: "What are the orbital characteristics of Pluto ?". StuRat 00:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

well its kinda hard to find out which are homework questions and which arnt but the most obvious signs of one are when someone ask somethink like; what is the tempreture of liquid nitrogen and how cold is it,in ferinhite, celcius, kelvin. Obvious homework question for chemistry as this is what they focus on. however there are some people that just want to know this for the heck of it. but i see most of the times that people who post homework questions sound more or less like a homework question. Maverick423 21:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see this in contention with AGF at all. The purpose of the reference desk is not to do peoples' homework for them, and if there is reason enough to believe that a question is just that, I see no problem in pointing out the rule. Sure it won't stop people from asking, but it gives us something to point to. -- mattb @ 2007-04-10T23:35Z

so your saying if it sounds like a homework question then we should treat it as such and point out the rule but at the same time assume good faith and help them out anyways? or just point out the rule and ignore them? and ya your right no matter what we do we will never stop people from asking for help with homework. Maverick423 13:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong (unless the homework task is to find pointers) with giving some pointers directing the questioners to the approach to be taken. For example, if the question is to solve 2x² + 7x + 3 for x, we can point them to the article Quadratic equation. If they come with an answer, we can say whether it looks right, and if they are stuck, we might give a hint to help them take the barrier. What we must not do, is do the homework for them, so that they can just copy and paste the answers. Theoretically it is possible that a clever questioner succeeds in disguising a homework assignment so well that it is no longer recognizable as such. But apparently most are not clever or shrewd enough for that; almost all questions that could be homework are also obviously homework questions. A real giveaway, for example, is those that take the form of a statement followed by "Discuss." I think we should try to avoid suggesting that the questioner is a shirker unless the question is obviously homework (but it is not bad, in my opinion, to ask: "This is not homework, is it?"), but in cases of doubt many honest questioners will be happy enough with pointers in the right direction, and if not they can always come back with questions for further elucidation.  --Lambiam^Talk 16:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Lambian is exactly right. If we want to assume good faith, or not bite the newbies, the thing to do is just not scold them for asking an obvious homework question. But assuming good faith does not have to mean being a sucker and doing people's homework for them! (As happens, it seems to me, with distressing frequency.)

If someone asks what the temperature of liquid nitrogen is, and it's an obvious homework question, we can provide a link to Nitrogen, which just happens to be a 100% appropriate answer even if it wasn't a homework question. Likewise, if someone asks about the orbital characteristics of Pluto, and even if we're not sure whether it's a homework question or not, we can simply point them at the Pluto article, which is again a 100% appropriate answer whether or not it was a homework question.

Now, if someone is really adamant about not giving a lazy slacker any help whatsoever, they might feel that even giving them a ink is more than they deserve. In that case, you can either (a) decline to answer, or (b) console yourself that (like it or not) knowing where to look for information is a skill that not all students have, so providing them with a link is a legitimate piece of help, since they still have to find the exact information on that page, which is still potentially a piece of work for them. (Or, (c), console yourself with the fact that someone who is so lazy as to be cutting and pasting their homework questions onto a Wikipedia Reference Desk page, and expecting to be spoon-fed a complete answer, may well be too lazy to even follow the proffered link.) —Steve Summit (talk) 15:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

"Too long"

In response to User:Radiant! tagging this page with {{toolong}}, I think we should summarize the medical disclaimer. It should be a short paragraph, simply emphasizing that we do not give medical advice (diagnosis, prognosis, or suggested treatment), and then directing the reader to our "official" medical disclaimer at Wikipedia:Medical disclaimer.

Since that page is somewhat short, we might also want to transfer some of information from this page (Wikipedia:Reference desk/guidelines#Medical advice guidelines) to the medical advice page (Wikipedia:Medical disclaimer). I would do that myself, but the page is protected. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 20:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I moved the medical advice section to a subpage, and removed the entire "Inappropriate responses" section. I thought it best that that section should be removed for the following reasons:

1. It was to detailed, the guideline should not attempt to list what "may" or "may not" be removed, or what is or is not appropriate. It's a guideline, and should merely describe in general terms the desired content on the desk.
2. We're unlikely to get any consensus on a detailed list of what could be subject to removal, or on the removal process itself. If we are to eventually put a guideline page in place, then let's focus on what we can get consensus on.
3. Inappropriate content is removed from Wikipedia every day, and we already have guidelines and policies in place which help us decide what content is appropriate and how to remove what is not.

—eric 17:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Good decision. Who likes a CREEP? − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 09:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm really very likable in person.—eric 20:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Removing others' posts

The current version starts with: "Incorrect information or advice that may be dangerous if acted upon should be immediately removed and discussed on the talk page; it should not be restored unless the outcome of the discussion is that the information was correct (or at least not dangerous) after all."

As it stands, the guideline seems to give carte blanche for anyone who disagrees with anything anyone else says to simply remove it, on the basis of it being "incorrect information". This section is essentially about dangerous information, and it should focus on that subject alone. I suggest the highlighted words be removed from the opening sentence. JackofOz 03:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The wording is ambiguous, but I assumed the intention was: Information or advice that is incorrect and may be dangerous if acted upon.  --Lambiam^Talk 13:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Allegedly "dangerous" responses

I oppose this entire item. After all, many things are somewhat dangerous, like driving a car. Should we remove all advice related to cars on the ground that "cars are dangerous, and we don't want to encourage dangerous activities". You might think I'm taking something relatively safe and making it sound dangerous to make a point, but let me point out that info I provided with sources saying that the elemental liquid form of mercury wasn't very dangerous (other forms of mercury are) was removed as being "dangerous advice" while far more people die in car accidents each year than of mercury poisoning. In fact, I don't believe anyone has ever died from exposure to elemental mercury, but only from other forms. So, my point is that this policy will be applied very unevenly to remove comments on things which are incorrectly perceived to be dangerous (like elemental mercury) while leaving in comments about things which are incorrectly perceived to be safe (like cars). Another example is that, in the US, nuclear power is perceived to be dangerous, while coal burning power plants are perceived to be safe, even though coal burning plants release far more pollution, and even more radiation, into the environment (the radiation comes from uranium in the coal). So, should anyone from the US feel free to remove advice on moving to nuclear power on the grounds that this is "dangerous advice" ? StuRat 14:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The assumption is that participants at the desk will bear in mind all the relevant guidelines for conduct on Wikipedia (and indeed, in real life), particularly WP:DICK, WP:POINT, Wikipedia:Use common sense, and WP:CIVIL. I presume that the subsequent discussion on WT:RD would reveal if people were abusing the 'remove dangerous advice' provision. I suspect that it is meant mostly to target bad medical advice. ("I have a toothache, what should I do?" "My grandmother told me to soak some solder in vinegar overnight, and then drink the liquid." "Apply a dab of turpentine directly to the affected area.")

Though I agree with StuRat to the extent that he raises a point I – and others – brought up a long time ago: attempting to create a policy which exhaustively and finally addresses every possible case will always fail—there's always something we didn't think of, and wikilawyers will (if allowed) always abuse or misinterpret written guidelines in the most twisted and perverse way possible.

And StuRat, please let go of the mercury dispute. First, you misstate your position—you stated flatly that handling liquid mercury "isn't dangerous"; you didn't qualify your answer on the Desk as you did here (by saying "wasn't very dangerous"). Second, elemental mercury has caused a number of deaths, as can easily be determined through a quick Google search: keywords: "elemental mercury exposure" death. (See for example case studies [9], [10], etc.) In a poorly ventilated space, mercury vapour can easily accumulate to dangerous levels. More often, of course, it causes neurological impairment or organ damage; it's a very slow toxin, and most people seek medical attention when they start to show symptoms. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Neither of those examples you gave involved death. In the first case they had a large quantity (21 pounds) of mercury which they threw at each other and tried to light on fire. Had they tried to set aluminum, plastics, or many other materials on fire, and inhaled the fumes, they would also have been taken ill. I stand by my assertion that far more people die from car accidents than from elemental mercury poisoning, and that treating elemental mercury as if it is far more dangerous than cars is therefore not justified. Allowing people to censor evidence of the safety of things which are perceived, incorrectly, to be highly dangerous cuts off the discussion and does not allow it to reach a logical conclusion, leaving people to forever wallow in their own superstitions. If you don't like the mercury example, I also provided the nuclear power example, and we can use that as a basis for discussion, instead. StuRat 03:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

My mistake; I linked to the wrong case study. Here are some deaths caused by elemental mercury: [11]. In any case, you well know that a comparison to cars is specious. Many more people have access to or interact with automobiles than with mercury. The average person receives training (formal and informal) from an early age on how to behave around and in motorized vehicles. People who drive are formally trained and tested, their conduct is extensively regulated by government, and their behaviour is monitored by police. For the vast majority of the population, no formal or informal training in handling elemental mercury is ever provided (witness the bloody stupid things some people have done in the linked case studies). Flatly telling people who lack appropriate training and background that handling elemental mercury "isn't dangerous" is irresponsible. Is it less dangerous than organomercury compounds? Yep. Is it less dangerous than an automobile? To someone who isn't trained to safely handle an autombile, certainly. Is it harmless, particularly in the hands of someone without proper training? Nope.

Leaving that aside, however, I'm not sure what sort of discussion you're looking for on this; I thought that my position was clear, and if you would like clarification of something specific feel free to ask. The nuclear power example you bring up is easily answered—removing the discussion would be absurd, and someone who tried to cite this clause to do it would be censured. Repeated abuses of that sort would be met with blocks for disruptive behaviour. Wikilawyering tends to wear very thin very quickly, and individuals who feel they can rely on perverse readings of policy to support obnoxious behaviour are generally rapidly disabused of such notions. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:10, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Cars are still highly dangerous to people who have gone through all the training the government offers. Somewhere around 43,000 people die from car accidents each year in the US, which is perhaps 1 in every 7,000 people who ride in a car each year in the US. Over a lifetime, the death rate from cars might be around 1 in 100. I doubt if anywhere near 1 in 100 people who handle mercury die from it. Here is a good site which compares risks of various items (although not elemental mercury): [12]. They actually put the lifetime risk of death from a car at 1 in 70, and try to show how people have the same type of bias against certain types of risks, like chemical and nuclear, while far more serious risks are accepted as "safe". StuRat 05:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Many more people die from slipping in the bathroom than from trying to imitate Spiderman by jumping off the Empire State Building. Nevertheless, it would be irresponsible to suggest to kids that statistically speaking the latter is relatively safe.  --Lambiam^Talk 13:13, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

But you failed to look at the ratio of people who tried to those who died. If 100% of people who jump off the Empire State building die as a result and only 0.001% of people who use the bathroom die, then we can safely say that jumping off the Empire State building is more dangerous. I've provided a link showing that 1 in 70 people die from car accidents, which makes it a major risk. I don't have the figures, but, as I said, I suspect that far less than 1 in 70 people who handle elemental mercury die as a result, making it considerably safer than cars. StuRat 15:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

The link you provided is not a reliable source; it says "the risk expression may look like ...". I'm convinced that 1 in 70 is much too high even for the U.S., and definitely for the world's population. In 2005, there were V = 5361 traffic deaths in Germany (see de:Verkehrsunfall#Unfallstatistik Deutschland). Assuming a more-or-less stationary population of N = 80 million, life expectancy of L = 75 years and chance of dying from a traffic accident, this gives for Germany a chance of VL/N, or about 1 in 200, of dying from a traffic accident. In countries that, unlike Germany, have a speed limit, this is in most cases probably even less. More importantly, you forget that many people get in their cars every day and make several trips. If as many people handled elemental mercury every day several times, and the stats would still show negligible amounts of risk, yes, then you were right. But we don't have such statistics, and I don't believe for one second that that is what they would show if they existed. Much fewer than 1 in 70 people die of those who once take a car ride and then never again. You are making the very mistake that you are trying to pin on me.  --Lambiam^Talk 19:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

The death rate from car accidents is probably much higher in third world countries, however, where roads and vehicles are in bad shape, there is little enforcement of traffic regulations, etc. And it is entirely reasonable to compare lifetime risk of death from handling mercury with lifetime risk of death from driving cars. For example, if one was to choose between a career as a truck driver and a chemist working with mercury, such statistics would be important in making the decision. StuRat 04:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Did you have anything to say about the topic of this thread? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 06:10, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I've had quite a bit to say about it, and I've now said it. In short, allowing unilateral deletion of allegedly "dangerous" advice is a bad idea, because people's perceptions of relative risk is extraordinarily poor, as you've demonstrated in this thread and as was covered in the link I provided. StuRat 15:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

You also gave some rather questionable safety advice under Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Dry_ice_safety, such as saying that it's safe to plunge your bare hands into liquid nitrogen, but I won't go and remove it unilaterally, or call you stupid for having done so. I would hope I could expect the same courtesy from you. StuRat 19:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I said that it "isn't all that bad" for "modest lengths of time". I didn't make the unqualified statement that it was "safe". I also noted the mechanism that provides (some) protection in the circumstance, and indicated clearly that contact with most other materials at liquid nitrogen temperatures could cause rapid injury. Please be precise when you comment on my remarks. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone lacking expertise who tried that could easily injure themselves, however. Thus, it was "dangerous" for you to say that. StuRat 04:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Somebody lacking expertise could hurt themselves with liquid nitrogen or dry ice period. Should we tell them that if they do not know what they are doing to stay far away from either, and not say anything else? [Mαc Δαvιs] ❖ 19:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

If this policy becomes official, then that's just what we would be forced to do. This is one example of why I oppose this policy. StuRat 01:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Which policy are you talking about? Is there a proposed policy that prohibits providing correct and verifiable information about the risks of certain behaviours? Where is it being discussed?  --Lambiam^Talk 14:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

As near as I can tell, the proposal is "advice that may be dangerous if acted upon (in the opinion of the deletor) should be immediately removed". Under this definition, advising people that plunging your hands into liquid nitrogen "isn't all that bad for modest lengths of time" seems to qualify for immediate, unilateral deletion. StuRat 19:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Debates and controversy

I agree with most of the what the reference desk is not-section, but I don't think that last entry about controversy and debate should be included specifically. It might send the wrong message and make people think they cannot ask questions about it. It falls square in the "not a soapbox-rule" we already have established. - Mgm|^(talk) 10:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I liked that bit. To me it made it clear that the answer we should give is not our own opinions, but rather to pointers to information about the debates on these topics. But, yeah, it's a bit redundant. Merging might be good but IMO we take care to retain the full meaning. Friday (talk) 14:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The answer we give may not be our personal opinion on the subject of the question, but certainly whatever reference we cite will be our choice based on our own personal opinion of which references are credible or not. If you assume that the people who ask questions here don't know how to separate the good from the bad when it comes to our explicit personal opinions, then you can't possibly defend that they have the ability to decide on their own which references were good and which ones were bad. A.Z. 02:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a good point, POV is inevitable, even when using reliable sources. This reminds me of a US news station which was accused of having a liberal bias for broadcasting names, pics, and brief bios of every soldier killed in Iraq. They said "we aren't biased, everything we say is true and verifiable". But then it was pointed out that they choose to list soldiers killed in Iraq, but didn't list civilians killed by Saddam, or people killed in any other way, like accidents or disease. They chose to focus on that one aspect exclusively, and in that choice lies the POV. StuRat 02:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Re: Use external links from answers as sources to improve our articles

Any chance we could get a plug in for Wikipedia:WikiProject Reference Desk Article Collaboration somewhere in this section? I don't wish to spam it though, so I'll leave it up to someone else to decide. Rockpocket 04:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:RDAC took an early break and could use some refreshments. I like the suggestion, but don't wish to spam the guidelines either, plus it's too early to write coherently. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I was thinking a bit of a revamp might be in order. Rockpocket 09:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Misleading sarcasm or irony

The recent fracas between myself and another contributor over what (in my view) was a 'joke gone bad' highlights the problems with understanding when something said in an online communication is intended as a joke or not. Whilst I agree that an outright ban on humor would be a bad idea, I believe we do need to have somewhat stronger guidelines than we currently do.

The problem comes about when a respondant answers a question ironically or with sarcasm and the result is harmless when interpreted as a joke - but disasterously bad advice when not construed as a joke. This kind of thing is dangerous because:

1. Our readership may not have a strong command of the english language and be therefore unable to realise that this is a joke.
2. Even with a strong command of the language, if you are unfamiliar with the subject matter, it might easily be that a totally outrageous suggestion intended ironically becomes understood as real advice.

I don't want to rake over yesterday's events again - so let me give you a 'real world' example where I made this very mistake. Many years ago, back when computers ran MS-DOS, I was working with a not-very-computer-literate co-worker. He phoned me up one day saying that he was running out of space on his hard drive and did I know what he could do about it? I jokingly said: "Well, you could always type "DEL *.*" (which deletes all of the files on the hard drive - including the operating system). I went on to try to explain where he might find files to safely remove - but as I was doing so, he said "No - that didn't work - now my computer has locked up"...he'd gone ahead and actually typed what I suggested.

This kind of thing can happen so easily - and is yet more likely to occur in an online conversation where one's tone of voice is missing.

So - I'd very much like to see some kind of concrete rule that says "Thou shalt not give bad advice - even in jest."

Aside from that, the guidelines seem perfectly fair. Thanks! SteveBaker 18:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Were you sent by Friday? Or did you join the dark side of your own choice. By the way, i agree with your sentiments. David D. (Talk) 18:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I try to include a smiley after anything that could possibly be misinterpreted. Or, we could just do on the spot executions for anyone who makes a joke. :-) StuRat 19:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

So you think up a joke then try and find some way, however tenuous, of making it relevent to the question? Bang bang. You're dead. Rockpocket 01:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh boy, so i'm a goner for the above :-) David D. (Talk) 19:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

For jokes, no. Support on the spot executions for the inclusion of any "smileys" in a response.—eric 19:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

But they are there specifically to ensure that everybody knows the statement is not to be taken seriously, thus they are critical. StuRat 19:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm convinced—nicely demonstrated.—eric 19:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

But smiley faces are not universally understood. My mother is 70 years old and occasionally consults Wikipedia - she has no idea what :-) means...much less :) or =P it's very easy to miss such things if you aren't hip to the Internet culture. I'm not saying don't make jokes - I'm saying that when a joke could be misinterpreted as untrue information - don't do it. SteveBaker 01:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I suppose we could add "just kidding" to make it absolutely clear. StuRat 01:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree with the thrust of that, Steve. I'm as guilty (if that's the right word) as anyone of adding humorous asides to threads. In principle, I not only can't see the harm in this, but also think the occasional bit of humour helps to maintain the friendly tone we have here. As long as it's not done gratuitously or insensitively. Very often, jokes are appreciated by the questioner and other responders, although sometimes they fly swiftly over their heads (or appear to, based on lack of comeback) - which is as good as falling flat (to mix a metaphor or two). What I don't usually support are in-jokes, where the questioner is effectively excluded. I say "usually" because sometimes the temptation is just too great to resist. Such is the lot of a punster. JackofOz 02:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, anyone who makes in-jokes should be attacked by a flock of ravenous seagulls. StuRat 02:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

• We say: "Having a bit of humour in your answer is almost always a good thing but...". Really? I can think of many, many examples of questions where humour is pretty innapropriate (for example, in questions about death and diseases). As it is phrased it reads like we are suggesting one should attempt to add humour to improve an answer. I suggest we change "is almost always" to "can be" to reflect this. Rockpocket 18:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

We definitely don’t want to come across as not having a sense of humor here. But we don’t want people to accidently take us seriously. Couldn’t we just have a template to use on non-serious posts? Maybe something similar to the “This page is intended to be humorous and does not reflect Wikipedia policy. . .” one? 71.112.23.141 22:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Consensus ?

Under whose authority was it decided that a consensus had been reached on these guidelines ? I see no consensus discussion, or even announcement, made here on the talk page. I've only today found out that somebody did this. StuRat 23:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC) -+

Stu, please take the time to read Wikipedia:Consensus as, based on your recent comments, i think you don't really have an understanding of this. Nobody has any "authority" to declare that a consensus has been reached, it is normally "reached as a natural product of the editing process." Also, nothing is ever "finalized" (as you asserted in an edit summary), consensus can change and bold, revert, discuss is the right way to try and make that happen. But please, a little moderation eh? You've not shown much interest in this page during the months it has been developing, to show up now and try and make major changes by edit warring is not going to work.—eric 23:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't agree that there is a consensus, so I'm going to remove the template that says it's a guideline reached by consensus. And I've shown plenty of interest, count the number of edits I have on this page, it's dozens. StuRat 00:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I just counted my name 72 times on this page. Those aren't all edits, but I'm sure most of them are. I'm also the one who started the whole process. StuRat 00:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

How many of those are reverts to your preferred version ;P Rockpocket 01:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand. My name is on this talk page that many times, not in the history. StuRat 09:01, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Why is the guideline tag being removed? Where's the problem? Friday (talk) 16:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Because EricR, unilaterally, decided to declare the discussion period over and a guideline to now be in force: [13], with no edit summary as to why he thinks a consensus has been reached, despite there having been daily changes to the guidelines and several ongoing discussions on this talk page. No discussion or even announcement of this change in status was made, and the links asking people to discuss the proposed guidelines were also quietly removed from the Ref Desks. I can't think of any more inappropriate way to go from a proposal to a guideline than that. StuRat 17:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Please take the time to read my comment above, that i "decided to declare the discussion period over and a guideline to now be in force" is quite contrary to my attempted explanation. I think you are making things here altogether too personal, and wonder you didn't comment when this document was moved to {{guideline}} status back in January or when i thought there was {{No consensus}} back in March? Erroneously ascribing opinions and motivations to me is not at all advancing your cause and certainly setting back the overall process. If you have such a problem with my edits in particular, as you have implied on a number of occasions, then please, take your concerns to RFC so we don't further drag down this discussion. Otherwise, make at least some attempt to read and understand my comments.—eric 18:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any explanation above, just that you apparently think anyone can just change it into a guideline from a proposal whenever they want. Look at what Ten did below, as far as actually asking people if it's ready to become a guideline, and then actually waiting for replies, and hopefully listening to what people say. StuRat 02:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely, now you're catching on. Anyone can (if they think it improves Wikipedia) just change it into a guideline from a proposal whenever they want (as long as they are not edit warring.) It's called the "wiki process" and is the method which will ultimately determine whether this document is a guideline or a failed proposal. See the bold, revert, discuss page i linked above for a more complete explanation.—eric 02:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Wrong, you shouldn't "be bold" with major changes like that, you should first verify that a consensus exists. StuRat 03:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I've read a bit more now. StuRat, your edit summaries make it clear that you don't have a clue what you're doing here. NPOV requires that we express "all" points of view? Ridiculous. Go take it up on that talk page if you really must object to NPOV, but keep in mind you'll be meeting all sorts of new editors that way, and many of those editors may not have much patience for your eccentric interpretations of policy. Until StuRat can present a reasonable statement of what he's objecting to, and his statement is one that comes from an understanding of other core policies rather than a rejection of them, I strongly suggest he stop reverting. Friday (talk) 16:36, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Saying "you don't have a clue what you're doing here" is a blatant personal attack, please stop immediately. As for what NPOV means, it clearly doesn't mean, even in an article, that each editor must only make NPOV contributions. For example, in articles with "advantages" and "disadvantages" sections (or "support" and "criticisms"), an editor is allowed to only contribute to one of the sections without being reverted for POV. On the other hand, if they went and deleted the other section, that would be an NPOV violation. Similarly, on the Ref Desk, each editor is allowed to present a single POV, so long as they don't delete the POV of others. Thus, the total response will hopefully be NPOV. Only by deleting one POV and allowing another to remain do we violate NPOV. StuRat 04:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

We are in danger of confusing representing a POV in a NPOV manner ("white extremists think blacks are inferior") and simply representing a POV ("blacks are inferior"). Stating only the former is perfectly acceptable, even though it is simply representing only one POV. Stating the latter is not even if contrasted with the opposing view. A statement saying "Blacks are inferior" countered by "Blacks are not inferior" is not NPOV, even though we are "expressing "all" points of view". This is what WP:NPOV is about in this context: representing positions in a neutral manner. It doesn't imply any editor has to represent all positions equally, simply that the position they do represent should be stated neutrally. Rockpocket 17:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Racism goes well beyond POV. Multiple POVs are valuable, but racist statements are not. StuRat 02:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

What the desk is not

I like the guideline suggesting people don't use the Desks as forums for their own opinions, but I wonder if we could also suggest that answerers address the question itself. Too often, my queries are answered with, in effect: 'Well, I have no idea what the answer to your question is, but I hate to say 'I don't know', so I'll tell you this instead' - and give some piece of irrelevent info instead. I admit, very occasionally the info given is kinda interesting, so the guideline would have to be carefully worded... Adambrowne666 23:55, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Thats a good point. However, often the querent will as a very non-specific and general question, meaning you have to interpret what they actually wish to learn. Different people will interpret such questions in different ways, leading to tangential answers. Rockpocket 00:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

For example, in response to "What's the best car", we might get some commenting on value, some on mileage, some on looks, some on popularity, some on safety, some on profitability. Also, some may mention specific cars ("the car that won the Indy 500 in 2003"), some might mention models, some may mention platforms, some may mention brands, and some may mention manufacturerers. StuRat 00:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

There's a bit in there under Guidelines for responding to questions: "...responses to posts should always attempt to answer the question..."—eric 00:34, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with all your points, but I still think a guideline could allude to this, as long as it was very carefully phrased so as to include the provisos you guys have mentioned. I am thinking of something a bit more specific than the line you point out, Eric - I'd love to be able to weed out that kind of contribution from the desks by quoting something explicit from the Guidelines. Adambrowne666 23:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Serial commas

Some of the lists in this guideline use serial commas, some do not, and this inconsistency presents an appearance of amateurishness. Although I am (as you can see) a fan of such commas, my main concern here is consistency. Matchups 12:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I have no objection to you making the comma usage consistent. Have at it ! StuRat 04:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

So, what is it then...

...a guideline, or a failed proposal?

To my reading, this document is a damn fine proposed guideline, and it's time to make it official. There seems to be some conflict over whether or not there is agreement on that point, and I'd like to gauge the level of approval from the community at large.

Bearing in mind that guidelines necessarily have some flexibility to them, and that there is still room for evolution of this document in the future, and that it's not necessary to deal with every possible conceivable eventuality in these guidelines, could people summarize briefly below any deal-breaking concerns that they have about this document?

People who are comfortable with the guideline as written are welcome to indicate their approval; if you're okay with it but would like to suggest tweaks, that's great too.

If there are any 'deal-breakers' – issues that you absolutely cannot support this guideline without – express them in the second section.

I'd urge involved parties not to declare the discussion closed until there's been a chance to hash out any disagreements, and in any case to allow at least seven days from the start of this thread. Thanks for your suggestions and your participation, TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello again. I'd also like to suggest that people not make any substantive changes to the guideline for the next few days, just to avoid confusion about which version people are commenting on and (dis)agreeing with. Feel free to make changes that are cosmetic or improve readability, flow, and style, but take care not to alter the sense or meaning of the proposed guideline at this time. Obviously I can't compel people not to make major edits/additions, but I hope everyone can see why I would ask this.

Finally, I encourage everyone to bear in mind that this document is a guideline. As such, its application will be flexible, and people will be expected to use their common sense and acknowledge that there is going to be some 'wiggle room' in its interpretation. (A guideline is meant to be a framework, not a straitjacket.) I also don't expect this document to necessarily address every possible situation that might arise, and anticipate future development. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. (Minor tweaks are bulleted.)

• TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
• David D. (Talk) 03:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
• Yes, this document is for the most the same as the prototype, Ten's RD thoughts, and despite some reordering and rewording what's in the guideline now has remained substantially unchanged for months now. More importantly tho, the desks themselves (in my opinion) have since improved. In general there seems to be more of an effort to keep responses on-topic and to cut out all the soapboxing. I think the guideline is a pretty good description of what most editors want to see on the reference desk.—eric 03:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
• Sluzzelin talk 05:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC) (Thanks to everyone for co-operating and working hard to achieve this. My main hopes projected into these guidelines are twofold: First of all, that they provide useful information for newcomers, people who wish to ask questions, and all other editors too. And furthermore, that we will see less drama and disruption at the desks and their talk page. See also my caveat below.)
• I'm pretty happy with things as they are. Rockpocket 05:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
• Looks reasonable to me. >Radiant< 09:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
• I'm sure there's room to quibble over details. But generally this is nothing new- it's just an explicit explanation of how to apply other policies and guidelines to the ref desk. Friday (talk) 14:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Can't agree to this without...

• ...a clause added to the permitted humor section that specifically states that misleading or potentially misleading humor is disallowed. (See earlier discussion here) With that addition, I would support this proposal. SteveBaker 02:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Taking away all contradictions, like the one I have exposed above in the section "Contradiction"; take out the sentence "the desk attempts to provide services comparable to a library reference desk", as this reference desk doesn't have the limitations that a library reference desk has and can provide a lot of services that those can't; delete the part that says "our standards on verifiability, neutral point of view, or no original research apply to the Reference Desk as they do to the rest of the project"; deleting the sentence "first and foremost, we're here to answer questions", as I feel like people will be watching me to see whether I am doing disruptive stuff and will delete anything that is not either a question or an answer or something that they like; creating guidelines saying that it is not OK to delete other people's posts. A.Z. 03:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Agree with AZ. Also, we need to state that you shouldn't just delete anything you disagree with, or think is incorrect. If you disagree, state why, and provide any evidence, but leave the original response. This has been a problem recently. Here is the language I would add: [14]. Here are the other changes I feel are needed: [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20]. Also, we need to state that argument from authority and ad hominem attacks are not allowed. StuRat 03:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Can you give us some examples of it being a problem recently? David D. (Talk) 04:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Sure: [21]. StuRat 04:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• How frequently does this sort of deletion occur? David D. (Talk) 04:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• I am sure StuRat could give you a bunch of examples, but I must say that people are just stopping to write things that they know that Friday and Eric will disagree with because they are sick and tired to see their edits being reverted. I for one have not added anything these past weeks to the reference desks. I will do so when I am sure that people will not delete my posts. The reference desks are not a welcoming place anymore. If you take a look at the history of the talk page, you will see a lot of people defending posts of the kind that they are trying to forbid here (things that do not fit the deletionists obscure requirements), people who have stopped editing the reference desk. So, yes, it is a major problem. And the deletionism problem is not only affecting the people who answer questions, but also the people who ask questions. They just don't like when some bold guy says "hey, take it somewhere else, this is an encyclopedia!" and no one else answers anything because they don't know that the deletions are unilateral actions unsponsored by the community and they fear they'll be doing something "wrong" in answering the question. A.Z. 04:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Well said. As for how often it happens, I'm not likely to notice secret deletions (done without notification of the author(s) or even a post on the Ref Desk talk page), so I have no idea how many there are. And having even one regular editor who thinks it's appropriate to delete answers he judges to be incorrect is enough to present a serious problem. StuRat 04:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Any answer that follows the guidelines will not get deleted. For the record, i do not support the deletion of wrong answers. However, I do believe that there is precedence for deletion being a tool for the triage of the ref desk when these guidelines are not followed. I would not agree to a deletions are forbidden clause in the guidelines. I note that is not what StuRat is proposing, literally. It is the future interpretation of that clause that i worry about. David D. (Talk) 04:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• I don't see the problem. If we add a "don't delete wrong answers" rule, how could that possibly be used to prevent deletions of, say, obscene racial slurs ? StuRat 04:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• If the slur was part of an answer then could I delete it? But I am happy with the philosophy of don't delete wrong answers if it is not used to prevent all deletions, i.e. of racial slurs. i say put it in. David D. (Talk) 04:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• I'd love to put it back in, but Rockpocket threatened to 3RR block me if I do. Would you mind putting it in: [22] ? StuRat 07:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• The interpretation of any guidelines is a whole new ball game, but we have to tackle it. I think that somewhere the point needs to be made in the guidelines that Ref Desk answers are far more analogous to conversations or talk pages than to polished articles. The Ref Desk does not purport to present one and only one comprehensive and accurate answer to a question at any one time, as our articles strive to do. Ref Desk answers almost always contain different points of view from different editors, and often there is no one "right" answer. This is more likely to be the case at Humanities, Languages and Miscellaneous. Over at Mathematics, Computing and Science, it's more likely that a single correct answer to the question will be arrived at, either immediately or by discussion - but even there, different users may present different valid approaches to a problem, with the same outcome, and the questioner is free to choose whichever approach suits them best. Once questions are finally done with, they are rarely revisited, another very significant difference from articles, which are constantly being changed. These differences are why, imo, a full record of the Ref Desk discussions needs to be maintained, and deletions of posts should occur only in cases where the only discernible purpose is wilful harm - what I call "outright vandalism", or grossly gratuitously offensive or libellous posts (I know A.Z. probably does not agree even with those exceptions, but it's my view). JackofOz 05:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• I agree completely. Well said. StuRat 07:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• i don't want to revive the argument from authority debate, but i will note that StuRat and I have a very different interpretation of what constitutes an argument from authority. David D. (Talk) 04:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• I'd rather state in the guidelines: "Arguments from authority and argumentum ad hominem are logical fallacies". Just that. I sort of read the thread and don't think StuRat and David D. disagree as to what constitutes an argument from authority! A.Z. 04:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with the guidelines, with the following minor misgivings:

• It is not always possible to adhere to"Our standards on verifiability, neutral point of view, or no original research apply to the Reference Desk as they do to the rest of the project". There have been numerous instances where a responder has come up with an answer in the form of a personal anecdote, which by definition is OR. Many such answers are much appreciated by questioners.
• Also, "If it is impossible to answer a question without some calculation, please make this clear in your answer with a phrase such "My calculation is as follows …"." suggests that OR is welcome in such cases.
• To easily fix this, I'd be happy if we could say "Our standards on verifiability, neutral point of view, or no original research generally apply to the Reference Desk as they do to the rest of the project ...." -- JackofOz 03:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• I agree that this is a problem. Here is the text I proposed to fix this problem: [23]. StuRat 04:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Jack, what do you think of the nutshell version: "Keep the core policies and guidelines in mind when responding..."?—eric 06:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy with both Stu's and your suggestions on this, eric. JackofOz 06:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, i like the current wording and think we need mention V, OR, etc. specifically, but when combined w/ "ignore are rules" as Sluzzelin says below i think the nutshell version is the summary we end up with. Think about the policies and then provide the best response you can for the reader.—eric 06:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with eric. I think we should be trying to adhere to V, OR, RS ect. That should be the benchmark. Of course, depending on the question, that might not be achievable. But guidelines are just that - a guide. Rockpocket 16:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, we shouldn't put policies into a guideline which we know are often impossible to follow on the Ref Desk. And, if we do, we should at least state that we know it's not always possible, and that, in those cases, the Wikipedia policies don't apply. StuRat 01:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• As with everything here, WP:IAR, depending on circumstance and circumspection. ---Sluzzelin talk 05:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

diversity of roles

RW reference librarians have never totally agreed about the relative role of direct information-providing and instruction. There's a somewhat different attitude at public libraries than at academic, where the librarians see themselves as primarily instructors in library use. WP of course is closer to a public library, but most public librarians too often blend in some instruction about how to deal with future questions--at least indirectly by explaining where you're finding it--and I think that the practice here actually is to do this, not just give the answer and the source. My own experience is in higher education exclusively, but we also answered questions from anyone, and I made a distinction between questions that the inquirer would never have to address again, and those where here would be a point in teaching.

Librarians also work in the public, just as WP editors. Except for removing any personal identification provided, I think absolutely nothing should be deleted. It can be marked strikeout, but not deleted. Professionals are responsible for their mistakes, and are expected to admit them and correct them, and those trying to work like them should take such responsibility also, just as they do in other areas of WP.

(This is a comment on the interpretation of the guidelines--I think the text as it stands is acceptable) DGG 03:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that only strikeout should be used, and I would restrict that to your own text, as well. StuRat 04:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

"NPOV doesn't apply here.."

Responding to A.Z.'s justification for this edit, see m:Foundation issues:

The Wikimedia projects as a community have certain foundation issues that are essentially beyond debate. People who strongly disagree with them sometimes end up leaving the project.

number one on the list—NPOV.—eric 06:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

You have misrepresented what A.Z. and I have said in a straw man argument. We support NPOV, but not the misinterpretation being used here that each response must represent all points of view, or just the most widely accepted view. Only an entire article, or in the case of the Ref Desk, an entire question and it's responses, should aim to be NPOV. Here is the relevant text from the policy:

The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly... Readers are left to form their own opinions.

StuRat 06:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Thought it's probably a good idea to try, no one has stated that each and every response individually "must represent all points of view". I rather thought y'all were trying to remove the "significant views published by reliable sources" language as you did in your quote above w/ the ellipsis. If so, you should try on the NPOV talk page.—eric 07:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

What is the point in even listing NPOV here, since it doesn't apply to an individual reply ? That is what these guidelines are for, after all, the content of each individual reply. StuRat 07:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

How would it be to our advantage to encourage replied that aren't neutral? We do want individual replies to be neutral. If someone were hanging out at the ref desk, giving out biases replies disguised as factual, this would not be a good thing. Friday (talk) 14:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

It's a misuse of the NPOV policy to claim it says each Ref Desk contribution must be NPOV, it doesn't say that at all, nor is that even possible. If somebody asks what causes psychotic behavior, for example, it's entirely reasonable for one person to reply with psychological reasons and another with biological (brain structure/chemistry) reasons. Neither answer should be deleted for only containing one POV. StuRat 14:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The best answer gives the whole picture, rather than just part of it. I think the only way an answer is in danger of deletion for npov reasons is if it's seen as soapboxing rather than an attempt to provide a neutral answer. I think the "keep in mind the pillars" bit addresses this adequately, but as always we depend on reasonable editors interpreting this reasonably. Friday (talk) 16:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

No, your version of the nutshell implies that every response must be NPOV, so only including the biological perspective in the example above would not be allowed. This is completely wrong and it should be explicitly made clear that each response most definitely does not need to take all possible POVs into account and attempt to come up with a single NPOV response. My version made that quite clear. StuRat 17:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

If you're still on about "including all possible POVs", you don't understand npov. If you're going to object to npov, this page isn't the right place for it. Please make some effort to interpret our guidelines here in the context of Wikipedia's other guidelines and policies. Friday (talk) 19:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

If you're going to misinterpret NPOV policy to mean that each edit must be NPOV, when it really says each article must be NPOV, you should go and complain on the WP:NPOV page and try to get the policy changed there, not here. Specifically, you need to change the word "article" to "edit" every place it occurs in the policy, which has some 40 occurrences StuRat 01:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Without getting into whether anyone is misinterpreting anything, I support StuRat's basic argument here. To illustrate: There was a recent debate (which for the life of me I can't find anymore) about why some editors write "edit conflict" before certain posts. The point was made in that debate that there's a good deal of ego involved in contributing to the Ref Desk, and that's not a bad thing unless taken to extremes. The reasons why users contribute to the Ref Desk will vary, but I suggest that one of the reasons is that they derive some personal satisfaction from helping others. That personal satisfaction is essential for a healthy human environment, and it comes - at least in part - from having their viewpoint recognised and validated by others, if not necessarily accepted as containing the complete answer to the question asked. To that extent, the majority of posts are inherently POV. Usually, a collection of such POV statements will comprise the complete answer (or as complete as we go in any one case). Many posts are acknowledged as guesses, but they're made in good faith and in a genuine attempt to shed some light on the answer. Such guesses would be unacceptable for an article, but they can of great value to a questioner who comes to the Ref Desk for help. I'm not suggesting we abandon the NPOV principle, but at the same time we have to recognise the reality of how the Ref Desk works, and has to work. It's not like an article. The Wikipedia pillars etc apply to the Ref Desk, but with some substantial qualifications and exceptions. JackofOz 01:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Its one thing to accept that there will inevitably be some movement from the most strict interpretation of the pillars - I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Its something altogether different to establish guidelines that explicitly legitimizes those in general terms. We should all be aiming for WP:NOR, WP:RS and WP:NPOV, because when it is possible to provide that sort of answer, those are the best answers we can give. Once we have a guideline that states "No attempt should be made to suppress the views of others." - I just know that it would be quoted ad infinitum to justify a preference for stating opinion over fact ("thats my view and the guidelines says that shouldn't be suppressed"). All of a sudden we find ourselves with a chatroom.

Lets have guidelines that guide us towards best practice, but give us the required flexibility. We all know that exceptions will exist, and we use common sense when those occur, but there are no need to ringfence them with explicit qualifications. Rockpocket 02:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Your use of the term "best practices" is incorrect. Answering a math question by doing some math is not an "inferior answer" just because it uses OR. Answering a question on what causes psychotic behavior by giving the biological POV is not an inferior answer. Stating that a Cadillac is a GM vehicle in response to a question is not an inferior answer just because the statement lacks authoritative sources. The goals of WP:NOR, WP:RS and WP:NPOV only apply to some questions, not all, and perhaps not even most. StuRat 02:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I know that deletion of others' posts is like waving a red rag at a bull, and causes no end of controversy. Which is why it should occur only in extreme cases (and why I have never done it). The dilemma is this: If we say nothing about suppressing others' opinions, it will be read by some as meaning it's acceptable to delete others' posts if they disagree with them - which it's not. If we say something about it, it might be perverted in the way you suggest, Rockpocket. It's a risk either way. Deletions occur infrequently in the scale of things, even if the heat generated by them is out of proportion to their frequency.

On balance, I'd rather have a guideline that promises a full record of discussions, even if they contain what some might call trivial, irrelevant or unuseful material, and even if they occasionally become a chat session. The wording needs to be carefully constructed, granted. The alternative is to implicitly condone someone deciding unilaterally to delete another person's post without the most compelling of reasons. Mere difference of opinion about the subject under discussion should never be considered a compelling reason to delete. It's such differences of opinion that bring life to debates and make the Ref Desk a healthy place for everyone, not least the questioner, who is often forgotten in all our behind-the-scenes talk. We're here primarily to be of service to them, and any improvements to the encyclopedia that might result are the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. The post that was deleted might have been exactly what the questioner wanted to know, but thanks to the actions of one high-handed user, they'll never get to see it. That's not being of service to our primary clients. -- JackofOz 03:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely. I am wholeheartedly opposed to half-assed deletions and will give no quarter to the perpetrators. I support any language that will prevent this. StuRat 06:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I also agree with JackofOz. Specifically, I agree that an individual RD response will often be POV, and this cannot be avoided; unilateral deletions on the RDs should only be done for the most compelling reasons; and "because I disagree with the answer" or "because I have a source that disagrees with the answer" are not sufficient reasons to delete an RD post. Gandalf61 08:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I am also oppose the deletion of constructive and informative answers by editors in good standing in any format (why I have never done it, either, in spite of having been given the unhelpful "deletionist" label by certain other editors). Such answers may include OR (such as in the case of maths or computing questions) or POV (such as in the case of questions that explicitly ask for opinion) or personal anecdotes. We already have this covered in the guidelines: "If it is impossible to answer a question without some calculation, please make this clear in your answer". So if the questions calls for OR, POV or opinion - all of which are inherent in making calculations - and that is made clear in the answer, then there is no basis for that being deleted. However, since the Ref Desk is not a discussion forum or chat forum, there is no need to have explicit guidelines warning against "suppressing others' opinions", because the primary goal not for the expression of opinion, its for answering questions informatively. Therefore, I think the exceptions to the pillars are already adequetely covered and I'm not adverse to a guideline about removal of content, but it should be couched in terms of not deleting information useful to the OP, not in terms of enforcing freedom of expression. Rockpocket 17:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

That seems a promising direction. Our concern is utility. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem with your answer, Rockpocket, is that whether answers are "constructive and informative" or contain "information useful to the OP" are themselves matters of opinion. When we leave it up to everyone to decide which other answers are "constructive and informative" and delete them if they don't think they contain "information useful to the OP", we get exactly what we want to avoid, people deleting answers they think are wrong or not useful. We don't want to allow that at all, as only the OP should make those decisions, so we need stronger wording than what you seem to propose. StuRat 20:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

That is a possibility, StuRat, but the alternative is equally open to abuse - the explicit protection of freedom of expression could be used to justify any comment on the Desk whatsoever, no matter how off topic or irrelevent. We certainly don't want to allow that at all. You seem to be suggesting that every answer that isn't strictly sourced or phrased in strict NPOV language would be deleted by these guidelines. Have a look at the Desks at the moment. There are many, many opinions stated that are not being deleted. At the end of the day, the guidelines are a matter of interpretation. They should be stated in terms of benefit for the querents, and we must have good faith that respondants will interpret them for the benefit of the querents. Even if there was a guideline supporting freedom of expression on the Ref Desk, I would still delete a purposely offensive comment aimed at the OP if I considered it serious enough, per WP:IAR and WP:CIV. In other words, there is no "freedom of expression" on Wikipedia if in doing so one violates our core policies. However, to address your specific concern about the removal of "wrong" answers, I would be happy to endorse a guideline prohibited discouraging the removal of good faith attempts at providing information useful to the OP. Rockpocket 20:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

(resetting long indent) I have a comment but I see Rockpocket already slightly tweaked his statement. Discouraging the removal of good faith attempts at providing useful info, I'm fine with. I wouldn't want to see the guideline say we prohibit it though- we've had some ridiculously stupid answers that have been defended as good faith attempts to provide useful information. A bull in a china shop may have good intentions; this doesn't make it less disruptive. Friday (talk) 21:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, after posting that occurred to me also, hence the tweak. Rockpocket 21:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Wrong answer

Everyone should attempt to give correct answers, but a few wrong answers are inevitable. If you believe your own answer is wrong, please strike it out and add a comment as to why you no longer think the first answer was correct. If you think somebody else's answer is wrong, add a comment saying so, why you think it is wrong, and providing evidence, if you have any. However, do not remove the incorrect answer, as it may actually be you who is wrong.

We should discuss how we deal with incorrect answers. Please see what I wrote above and comment on it here. StuRat 22:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Friday has now removed the last line: "However, do not remove the incorrect answer, as it may actually be you who is wrong" and replaced it with "The best way to avoid disagreement is to provide answers from a reliable source.": [24].

I disagree both with the removal and with the new text. The new text doesn't seem helpful at all, as many reliable sources can be found which disagree with one another. I believe there is a substantial majority which agrees that answers perceived to be incorrect should not be removed. If I read the discussions right, this includes myself, A.Z., JackofOz, Gandalf61, DGG, Rockpuppet and David D. with only EricR and Friday opposed. I can't quite read TenOfAllTrades's opinions on this.

StuRat 06:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Since the intent of edits to this document seem to be often misunderstood, i provided a "b version" for comparison. I added it before seeing this talk page section, hoping for more discussion, not a vote between versions. Please, edit away on the "b version".—eric 21:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I made a minor tweak to the 'b version', by removing the requirement that a request for references be placed only on the editor's talk page: [25]. Putting such a request there may not be ideal for a number of reasons. In many cases, there are distinct advantages to putting a request on the Desk itself. First, it takes advantage of our high-traffic Ref Desk. Someone (or several someones) can do some legwork and rapidly firm up support for an uncited claim. Second, you don't know how long it will take before another editor even sees a message—if someone's asleep, it could be hours; if they've gone away for the weekend it will be days. If the posting was from a dynamic IP, then they might never see the request for references. Finally, in cases where a dubious answer has been given, I don't see anything wrong with asking politely, "Hey, I'm not sure if the above is correct. Can anyone provide a citation for this statement?" It (politely!) reminds the original poster to take everything they read on the internet with a grain of salt, and it encourages other editors to provide clarification or sources. If someone posts a response without providing any sources, it's not unreasonable to express doubt, even without sources. I don't want to see a situation where only the first response is privileged, and a higher standard of evidence is required to express doubt. (I think we've gone over this concept in one of the archives.)

Otherwise, things look reasonable, though I agree that jumping straight to a vote probably isn't a good way to go. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Oops, meant as a suggestion to prevent argument on the desk not as a requirement, if the original editor is a reasonable sort then yes, better to add it in as a response. I actually like the higher burden for challenges (tho not quite as StuRat has presented it) you already know there is at least one other editor who disagrees. Simply questioning a response doesn't seem like adding much value to the desk; whereas looking over the articles and doing some research does. Maybe it's all too fine a point, but that's what i was thinking w/ "due diligence", and maybe that text needs some tweaking also.—eric 23:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

So, let me explicitly ask, do you support or oppose the sentence:

"However, do not remove the incorrect answer, as it may actually be you who is wrong." StuRat 06:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Support (possibly with tweaks)

• Support. StuRat 20:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support. JackofOz 06:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

• I don't think we want to explicitly say to remove or not remove an answer. Sometimes it may be appropriate to remove a very wrong answer, but we certainly don't want people removing other editors' posts lightly. I believe in cases where an answer has been seen as very misleading or dangerously incorrect, there's sometimes been consensus for removing them. Hopefully this happens rarely, if at all. Friday (talk) 20:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• In that case, we could say "don't delete answers you believe to be incorrect unless you first gain a consensus to do so on the talk page". StuRat 21:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• Well, in cases of very bad answers, it's often better to remove it sooner than later. If an editor uses good judgment and does this only when he believes consensus will support him, I think this is good enough, whether or not he explicitly gets consensus ahead of time. Friday (talk) 21:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• I strongly disagree. If we provide proof that an answer is wrong, that's good enough until we have time to gain a consensus that the answer should be removed. Leaving it up to each editor to delete things based on their own judgment (including their own judgment as to whether others will agree) leads to bad deletions and edit wars. StuRat 21:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• That's a problem we already have. Editors already need to be able to reasonably guess what will or won't be controversial. This is how you know whether to just boldly make a change, or take it up on the talk page first. Friday (talk) 21:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• I spoke too soon, perhaps. I like Eric's "b version" better than the "a version". It really comes back to verifiability. Friday (talk) 20:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• I oppose the deletion of answers just because another user disagrees with them, even if the original answer is demonstrably wrong. Discussion of opposing opinions is what the Ref Desk is all about. This is not like getting one answer to your question from a librarian on a library ref desk. There are many of us here, and opinions differ. Finding out why a genuinely held view is wrong is a learning experience - and you can bet that if one person holds such a view, many others do too. Deletions should occur in the most compelling of cases, such as gratuitous insensitivity perceived to be designed to cause gross offence to some group; or libellous statements that could bring Wikipedia into disrepute or legal difficulties. JackofOz 06:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

As for "discussion of opposing opinions is what a Ref Desk is all about"- no,no, a thousand times no. That's exactly the point we're making with "The ref desk is not a forum". It's not for you and me to debate our opinions. This leads to all manner of trouble and doesn't further the goals of the project in any way so we want to avoid this. We can point people to articles about controversial issues but rehashing the controversy on the ref desk is not productive. The only debate we want at Wikipedia are the unavoidable debates about what's best for the project. Debates about the world at large have no place here. Friday (talk) 14:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, we very much do want to see all the different POVs on a topic, like the biological and psychological POVs on the causes of psychosis, for example. StuRat 15:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the main issue here is to be objective and have a balanced response. This might entail adding other sources (let's forget the RS argument for now) but should not entail one fighting for ones own POV. In other words soapboxing should be discouraged. David D. (Talk) 15:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

In my opinion what is at issue here is the removal of potentially dangerous and not cited material, and responses for which a source is requested but the editor refuses to provide one. Framing these issues as the removal of "wrong" answers really doesn't move us any nearer a resolution.—eric 08:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I am proposing changing it to: "However, do not remove the incorrect answer, solely because it is wrong, even if you can prove so with reliable sources". This makes it clear that this can't be the sole reason for removal, but something can be removed for other reasons, like being dangerous. However, answers with uncited sources are allowed, so not having sources isn't a justification for removal, either. StuRat 14:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather see us say what to do than what not to do, but this may be small beer. Friday (talk) 14:58, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." ?

• I oppose adding this to these guidelines, as the threshold for inclusion on the Ref Desk is definitely truth. If I state that 1234 - 3 = 1231 in response to a math question, that should be included, because it is true, whether I can find any reliable sources which state this or not. Conversely, if I find a verifiable reliable source that states it is some other answer, I should not include that. However, in neither case should an answer be deleted. StuRat 21:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• Pillar issue. Take it up on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability if you must. Friday (talk) 21:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• There you go again, back to the same old misdirection. The issue isn't whether the policy itself is bad, it is whether it applies to the Ref Desk, or just to articles. StuRat 21:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Essentially saying the ref desk is not a part of Wikipedia. The community takes a very negative view of Wikiprojects which attempt to form their own little domain away from the encyclopedia proper. As far as questions surrounding 'truth' and 'verifiability' go, there's loads of discussion on the WP:V and WP:ATT talk pages.—eric 21:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It says no such thing, that's just more misdirection. Many policies on Wikipedia are written for articles only. That doesn't mean that non-article pages aren't part of Wikipedia. StuRat 21:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the rest of the guideline already makes it pretty clear that we don't just throw core policies out the window because it's the reference desk. Verifiability is already explicitly mentioned as applying to the ref desk. Friday (talk) 21:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Not to the extent of tossing out true things which aren't verifiable and including verifiable lies, which is what this says we should do. StuRat 21:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Newbies raise that exact objection to verifiability all the time. Look through the history for hundreds of standard responses to this objection. Or just go read the actual policy- it explains what is meant in more than just a couple sentences. Friday (talk) 21:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It is true that policies were written with articles in mind. All of Wikipedia exists with articles in mind- the articles are the important stuff. The rest is overhead. However notice that the five pillars are described as defining Wikipedia's character rather than defining the character of the articles. As has already been agreed on and documented on many pages, policies are important in places such as talk pages as well as in articles. We don't need to start completely from scratch in describing the character of the ref desk- they're part of Wikipedia. Friday (talk) 21:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps for article talk pages, but certainly not all Wikipedia policies apply to all talk pages. It would be absurd to suggest you can't put anything on your own talk page unless you have a verifiable reliable source for it, for example. StuRat 22:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, It would not be encouraging "tossing out true things" and "including verifiable lies" any more than the articles do that. Besides, we have already esablished that there are cases where deviation for core policies may be required on the Ref Desk. In the rare case that a reliable source is incorrect, there is nothing wrong with replying "reliable source X says blah blah blah, however I have reason to believe that to be factually incorrect because, by my calculation, blah blah blah." I don't believe anyone would find justification in our guidelines for deleting that sort of statement, because it is at the very least providing useful information for the OP (the source: verifiable if not true) and perhaps also providing some context by calculation, so the OP can make their own decision on how reliable it is.

I really like eric's version B and would support it as is. However, I also think there is room for a sentence discouraging the deletion of others' answers, just because one considers them to be wrong. Rockpocket 22:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I put in a sentence discouraging removal. It would need to be tweaked I think. I'm still not convinced we need to address this issue, but I can't see how it would hurt anything either. Friday (talk) 22:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You put in "We generally discourage editors from removing answers they think are wrong - outright removal of a response should be done only in exceptional cases". This is definitely better than nothing, but still seems to say that there are cases where an editor can remove an answer solely because (they believe) it's incorrect. I don't believe that the majority here think that's appropriate, but that evidence showing why the answer is wrong should be added, instead. StuRat 06:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with StuRat here. I don't believe there is any justification from removing an answer solely because it is incorrect. That said, there may be good reasons for removing an incorrect answer (and that it is incorrect could be a contributing factor e.g. a suggestion a young OP drink bleach because its harmless). Can you think of a way of tweaking the phrase to address this? Rockpocket 06:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

How about if we tweak the line I had: "However, do not remove the incorrect answer, solely because it is wrong, even if you can prove so" ? This makes it clear that a wrong answer can be removed for other reasons (like being dangerous). StuRat 14:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the "even if you can prove it". We don't want to encourage original research. I think the version that's there now is decent. Friday (talk) 14:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to "proof" using reliable sources. However, I said "proving it" should not be used as a justification for removal, which hardly encourages OR. However, if you want to make it even more clear we could go with: "However, do not remove the incorrect answer, solely because it is wrong, even if you can prove so with reliable sources". StuRat 14:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Are there any guidelines about what constitutes a reliable source? I ask this because we often see edit wars in articles, where one editor cites a source that he or she believes is reliable, but other editors are of a different opinion. It's impossible to disprove a lot of so-called "unreliable sources", but possible to disprove others. On articles, the majority viewpoint more often than not wins the day and the "unreliable" source becomes no longer part of the article's references. In other cases, differing sources are presented in an effort to be NPOV, and readers can make up their own minds. However, on the Ref Desk, it should be possible to have virtually any viewpoints presented - whether they're backed up by citations or not - without deletion. Arguments against the veracity of another's opinion is what works - not deletion of it. JackofOz 05:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, there is WP:RS, of course. Personally I don't see quite how reliable a source is to be an issue on the Ref Desk, as long as it is appropriately attributed. Consider a library Ref Desk staffer: when asked for information regarding a scientific subject, it is not their job to critically assess the whether the info in Science is more reliable than Nature. Thats said, they would be expected to distinguish between The Beano and Encyclopaedia Brittanica. If we provide a non-personal source - any source - and then provide a general indication of the type of source (a newspaper, a website, a scholarly journal), then we are providing useful information for the OP. What is not generally useful, is a multitude of contrary personal opinions with no indication of reliability whatsoever. Rockpocket 06:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Also Wikipedia:Attribution/FAQ, tho not policy, is a good read.—eric 07:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for those links, people. I agree that reliability per se should not be an issue on the Ref Desk. However, it comes into play when one editor disputes another user's answer and cites what they consider a reliable reference to support their case. I have concerns with this, from WP:RS (my highlights) - "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." What's credible to one editor may not be so to others. And what's authoritative to one editor may not be so to others. Ultimately, in many cases it comes down to individual opinion. JackofOz 13:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

This is why we remove ourselves one level and don't assert that a given source is right or wrong. There's a classic example mentioned frequently- if the New York Times reports that the Sun does not rise tomorrow, we can report that they said it. We would also show where other sources claimed that the Times was out of their minds. We don't try to be in the business of making our own determination of the accuracy of what a source says, for at least a couple reasons: 1) we're not experts, so we use sources instead of being the source. Editors can claim to be an expert but they're often lying. 2) The minute we try to be in the business of critiquing the sources, we'll get a bunch of quacks in here giving their own complicated and utterly stupid theories about why everything reported by Nature is wrong. We don't want to waste our time debunking such nonsense. Friday (talk) 14:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, according to the quote provided by Jack, we can't remove ourselves from evaluating each source, as we each are given the responsibility to determine whether a given source qualifies as credible and authoritative. If it isn't, it doesn't qualify as a reliable source, and shouldn't be referenced. I wonder if Wikipedia itself qualifies as an RS, since many doubt if it's credible and authoritative. StuRat 14:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we can't avoid using judgment about the sources- but we take care how we do this. If Nature has a reputation for being a good source, that's all the further we look into it. We're not in the business of picking apart one of their articles. If another source does this, then it's fair game but not until then. Wikipedia itself is not considered a reliable source for our purposes. But the sources we use should be reliable. If you want to understand core concepts, the best way is to go read the core policies- much of what we're discussing here has been asked and answered hundreds of times before. Friday (talk) 14:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

But what if we have no idea what their reputation is ? We also frequently must evaluate a source provided by an OP or other responder. For example, survey results can be evaluated based on the numbers of people in the sample, the margin of error, whether the questions are unbiased, whether the sample group matches the target population in age, gender, race, income level, etc. StuRat 14:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is room for endless nitpicking. But we don't want to encourage this here, it's outside our scope. Let other sources do the nitpicking for us. They're allegedly qualified, we are not. Friday (talk) 14:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

So, if an OP or responder references a survey which states "80% of the American people support the President on the war in Iraq", we should accept that as fact, even though the sample size was 5 people, if we can't find any other source which examines this "survey" ? StuRat 15:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course not. Please, go read what I wrote and the policies people are referring to. All of this is already well understood. We don't have to accept as fact what the sources say. We just say that they said it and avoid asserting that it's true or false. This is the basics of neutral point of view. We'd save all kinds of time if we came into the discussion as editors already well versed in the core concepts of Wikipedia. Is it too much to ask that editors make an effort to come up to speed on these issues before debating the ref desk guideline? Friday (talk) 15:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Why we should not be supporting the concept of "freedom of expression"

This is the sort of utter nonsense [26] that a guideline supporting freedom of expression would legitimise. Plain wrong in so many ways, and considering the potential damage it could do if taken at face value by the OP, I can think of no good reason whatsoever one could argue against its removal except for "freedom of expression". Rockpocket 00:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

So you're so damn afraid of the bad things that could happen that you don't even bother to take the time to look the other way and see the wonderful things that inclusionism could produce. By the way, this diff that you are linking to is utterly legitimate and definitely pertinent: it was completely on-topic. In fact, I really don't know why something like that would be considered plain wrong! I thought at first that you would have linked to something rather difficult to justify, like someone posting a photograph of another editor naked or something (a case that would truly be hard to deal with), but that edit right there is just plain normal. The guy is just saying his opinion on the matter, as all other editors are. I for one didn't find it particularly interesting or instructive, but I won't ever argue that just because something isn't interesting for me it should be deleted. A.Z. 03:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

As long as posts agree with WP:CIVIL/WP:NPA, there shouldn't be a problem --h2g2bob 07:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Stuff like that is one reason many of us are hesitant to encourage giving our own opinions here. If we're talking about which brand of toaster we like, it's less likely to upset anyone. But when you get into a sensitive topic, and you get rants like this. I too have seen a couple of people repeatedly assert that all opinions are welcome here and any opinion is as good as any other. This view is not compatible with Wikipedia. If we were running a forum, I might almost agree. But, we're a reference work- some random editor's opinion on who should be maimed or killed and in which specific way has no encyclopedic value. You want a forum, the Internet is over there, and it's full of them. Go find one. Nobody's trying to tell anyone what they can't do- we're only saying that Wikipedia has a scope, and certain things are outside of it. Friday (talk) 14:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Where are we on wrong answers?

I'm reading (skipping through) the discussuion above and there has been some flux in the guidelines during the discussion. Are we ALL gravitating to the b version that is currently on the guideline page? David D. (Talk) 15:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so, I know I'm not, and I haven't seen anyone else say they are. StuRat 15:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

OK so i need to read all of above, thanks for the reply. And sorry for being lazy and asking for a litmus response. David D. (Talk) 15:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

That's OK, by why don't we just ask if they prefer version a or b ? StuRat 15:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

a) Everyone should attempt to give correct answers, but a few wrong answers are inevitable. If you believe your own answer is wrong, please strike it out and add a comment as to why you no longer think the first answer was correct. If you think somebody else's answer is wrong, add a comment saying so, why you think it is wrong, and provide evidence, if you have any. However, do not remove the incorrect answer, solely because it is wrong, even if you can prove so with reliable sources.

b) The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. While we should keep the verifiability policy in mind while answering, a strict application is not always efficient or useful for some questions. If you believe a response should provide a reference but does not, exercise due diligence before challenging the edit. Check Wikipedia's articles for conflicting or supporting information. Search out your own sources which could confirm or deny the assertion. Use common sense when challenging a response on the desk, present your own sources as a response to the question or politely ask for references. If one of your own responses is challenged don't take it personally—it is after all the Reference Desk—provide a source or reconsider the response. If you cannot find anything to support you edit then indicate such on the desk itself: strike out, remove, or add additional clarification to your response.

=I prefer version a

• I prefer A. We need to establish which Wikipedia policies apply to the Ref Desk and how they apply. With respect to deletions, the Ref Desk behaves more like a talk page than an article. StuRat 15:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

=I prefer version b

• I like B better. We don't need to reinvent core policies here. Friday (talk) 15:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)