Talk:Milky Way/Archive 3

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 169.229.142.187 (talk) at 18:13, 13 September 2007 (→‎We need a BOT: reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

It has been proposed that Milky Way/Archive 3 be renamed and moved somewhere else, with the name being decided below.
When there is a clear consensus please move the article and remove the notice, or request further assistance at Wikipedia:Requested moves if necessary.
Maintenance Use Only: {{subst:WP:RM|Milky Way/Archive 3|?|}}


Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on September 13th, 2006. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

The "Milky Way" and "The Milky Way Galaxy" are two different things

There needs to be a "back to basics" as to what this article should be about, or at least how it is structured. "The Milky Way is the galaxy where the Solar System (and Earth) is located." That is how this article currently opens and it is wrong encyclopedically and factually. Encyclopedias describe things. The thing we are describing that should come after "Milky Way" in an encyclopedia is "The Milky Way is the hazy band of white light appearing across the celestial sphere" as stated in any standard text book (for example Contemporary Astronomy - Second Edition, by Jay M. Pasachoff). That is the origin and current meaning of the word "Milky Way". The description of the Milky Way Galaxy as the place where the Solar System (and Earth) is located is different "thing" based on a theory (although a well established one). A theory should not be the main description of something when we have a more factual one with solid references. Like I said above (Talk:Milky Way 23:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)), this article seems to have a backwards structure----> Theory up front and the actual factual Milky Way, the band of light, taking a back seat. I see a need for some basic logical re-arrangement of this article but welcome some other points of view on this. Halfblue 03:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and re-arranged the article along the lines I mentioned above. The article now follows its title "Milky Way" and describes the "thing" we call Milky Way. Since the article is now 39 kilobytes long and there is a difference (as supported by reference) between the "Milky Way" and "The Milky Way Galaxy", a good case can be probably be made for splitting off the entire "The Milky Way Galaxy" section to make it a separate article "Milky Way Galaxy". Halfblue 17:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd support such a split-off. There should be a prominent hatnote, of course -- something along the lines of, "This article is about the visual phenomenon in the night sky; for the spiral galaxy containing our solar system, see Milky Way Galaxy; for other uses, see Milky Way (disambiguation)" -- to quickly guide readers to the right place. But given that both topics can easily support their own articles, we may have reached a natural size for fission. Hqb 18:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Time for a vote: Should we move the Milky Way Galaxy section and where? There are redirects at "Milky Way (galaxy)", "Milky Way Galaxy", "Milky Way galaxy" that could be taken down and made into the article. I prefer disambiguating term in parentheses, Milky Way (galaxy). Wikipedia:Naming conventions (astronomical objects) seems to support this re:In general, the official name of an object should be used (e.g. Jupiter). If another object shares a name with something more notable, the type of object should follow in parentheses. (e.g. Mercury (planet)). Adding tage to section to prod discussion. Halfblue 04:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[Deindenting for votes]

  • Move to Milky Way (galaxy). This is a clear case of disambiguation since we have two "things" sharing the same name. I supply the following reasons:
1. In most texts "Milky Way" is used interchangeably for the band of light and the galaxy. This falls under Wikipedia is not a textbook, it is an encyclopedia where the general guideline at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (astronomical objects) is to disambiguate something with the exact same name.
2. The guideline for naming astronomical objects/Galaxies may not apply here because we only have one object, the Milky Way. The Milky Way Galaxy is not an "object”, it is a concept based on theory about a visible object.
3. Most objects of this type are not called "Galaxy" by default (see:Astronomical naming conventions#Names of galaxies), and even the few that are, such as Andromeda Galaxy are still called nebulas in several of my text books.
4. Personal tendency towards "neatness". When searching "Milky Way", seeing Milky Way (galaxy) in the search immediately tells the searcher that this is a different thing from the other "thing" (Milky Way).

Halfblue 13:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Move to Mily Way (galaxy)
I cannot say much, except that the Milky Way Galaxy is a topic containing enough information to deserve its own topic. Not to mention, when most people type "Milky Way", they are expecting to see a page on the galaxy, and instead see a strange concept of "stars", and have to scroll down to see what they typed in to see. Perhaps even moving the milky way belt of stars to its own page "Milky Way (stars)", and have "Milky Way Galaxy" become its own page.
I'll add more later, as I'm busy right now. I just noticed my browser forgot to sign me in; I'm TAz69x-70.74.122.87 21:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

With respect to Halfblue, I think your proposal and changes are exactly wrong. In my opinion, the thing most people will be looking for when they search for "Milky Way" is the galaxy and not the "band of light" and so it is appropriate that the article lead off with the galaxy and be defined by it. Even if some technical references have taken a different posture, I do not believe that is the common understanding. If anything Milky Way (band of light) should be moved to a seperate article. Dragons flight 21:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Just to clear up some confusion. The changes I have made in the article are not based on opinion, they are based on actual references, i.e. it has been published by a reliable source. Every singe source uses the word "is"----> "The Milky Way is the band of light seen in the night sky". That is pretty un-equivocal as to what belongs at the article titled "Milky Way". I think the confusion comes from the fact that the majority of the people living in urban areas cannot see and may be totally un-aware of the Milky Way. Their only acquaintance with the term is what they see in textbooks related to the Galaxy. It comes back to Wikipedia not being a textbook... it describes actual "things". And this is an example of what can happen when you surf an encyclopedia like Wikipedia, you look up the Galaxy and you may find out there is something totally different out there you were un-aware of. Halfblue 14:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
You are confused. Here are a few recent examples of academic papers using "Milky Way" to mean the galaxy.
  • "Contrasting copper evolution in omega Centauri and the Milky Way", MONTHLY NOTICES OF THE ROYAL ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY 378 (1): L59-L63 JUN 11 2007
  • "Mass modelling of dwarf spheroidal galaxies: the effect of unbound stars from tidal tails and the Milky Way, MONTHLY NOTICES OF THE ROYAL ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY 378 (1): 353-368 JUN 11 2007
  • "A pair of bootes: A new Milky Way satellite", ASTROPHYSICAL JOURNAL 662 (2): L83-L86 Part 2, JUN 20 2007
  • "The structure of the nuclear stellar cluster of the Milky Way", ASTRONOMY & ASTROPHYSICS 469 (1): 125-146 JUL 2007
  • "Dark matter in the Milky Way - II. The HI gas distribution as a tracer of the gravitational potential", ASTRONOMY & ASTROPHYSICS 469 (2): 511-527 JUL 2007
  • "Testing the universal stellar IMF on the metallicity distribution in the bulges of the Milky Way and M 31", ASTRONOMY & ASTROPHYSICS 467 (1): 117-121 MAY 2007
  • "Open cluster birth analysis and multiple spiral arm sets in the Milky Way", NEW ASTRONOMY 12 (5): 410-421 JUL 2007
And those are just a few from the last few months. "Milky Way" is the common name for the galaxy even among academics. Almost no one consistently writes "Milky Way galaxy". As the most common meaning of "Milky Way" is to refer to the galaxy, that is what should be featured here. Dragons flight 16:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's not start making radical changes to the article until we have some kind of rough consensus here. As far as I can see, the reasonable options are at least:

  1. Have a single article, Milky Way, covering both the galaxy and the band-of-light in separate sections. The question remains whether the lead paragraph should favor (a) the galaxy, (b) the band of light, or (c) try to give equal prominence to both
  2. Split into Milky Way (galaxy) and Milky Way (band of light); make Milky Way a disambiguation page (also covering the candy bar, etc.)
  3. Split into Milky Way (covering the band of light) and Milky Way (galaxy)
  4. Split into Milky Way (covering the band of light) and Milky Way Galaxy.
  5. Split into Milky Way (covering the galaxy) and Milky Way (band of light)

Are there any other proposals one might want to consider? If so, let's add them to the list. (Note that the exact wording of "band of light", "luminous band", "visual phenomenon", or similar, can probably be decided later.) Otherwise, let's wait a day or two, then restart the poll with whatever list of options we end up with. Hqb 19:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The radical change was the one that bastardized this article by taking a good article on a vital topic that was started nearly 6 years ago and radically changing its focus, ignoring that the galaxy is the primary topic (with the visual effect being just a minor manifestation thereof). The tendancy of some people to recklessly change the structure of established articles is one of the more frustrating aspects of Wikipedia. Anyway, I am going back to my vacation and don't plan to engage on this further. Though if someone does want to count heads, you can be sure that I think this page should about the galaxy and "band of light" (or whatever term one likes) should be a minor side page (with a summary section in this article, since it is an aspect of the galaxy). Dragons flight 20:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

yes, split--80.86.74.135 21:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

No, don't split. The argument that the silvery streak is a "thing" and the galaxy is a "theory" doesn't hold water. They are one and the same "thing", just seen from different view points. Any astronomical information about the Milky Way (as distinct from art or mythology information) must include references both to the silver streak and to the galaxy. One makes no sense without the other. Ianchristie 06:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

If you go by that argument then the star patterns in the sky called constellations are fake, because they are a trick of orientation and cultural supremacy. They aren't even cultrually neutral. They are fake things that don't exist. And star clouds are also tricks of alignment that don't exist. And Category:Double stars contains alot of tricks of alignment too. 70.55.85.126 04:37, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Further Comment: It should be kept in mind that you cannot make something up based on consensus Wikipedia is not a democracy. Something like this is not determined by opinion or conducting a Google search for variant usage of the term (see Wikipedia:No original research). How long an article has existed in a certain form is not a basis for determining whether or whether not there may be something fundamentally wrong with it. The only basis you can judge this article (or anything on Wikipedia) by putting it up against a reliable source (Wikipedia:Verifiability). The references that there is a “thing” (a band of light in the night sky), and that it is called the “Milky Way” is pretty basic. For example The Cambridge Encyclopidia Of Astronomy:

“A faint luminous band can be observed in the clear night sky... was long ago named the MILKY WAY... the MILKY WAY gives a first indication of the structure of the world beyond our solar system”.

That is describing a “thing” that has a name--> “MILKY WAY”. Further clarification can be found in Contemporary Astronomy - Second Edition, by Jay M. Pasachoff (a standard college astronomy text book) in the chapter on THE MILKY WAY GALAXY PART V (page 414):

“Don’t be confused by terminology: the Milky Way itself is a band of light that we can see from the Earth, and the Milky Way Galaxy is composed of a hundred billion stars plus many different types of gas, dust, planets, etc. The Milky Way is that part of the Milky Way Galaxy that we can see with the naked eye in our night time sky”.

That seems to be pretty conclusive reference that there are two distinct “things”: the band of light and the galaxy. There are other examples on Wikipedia where you have two distinct articles: one describing what some visual phenomenon is called, and one describing what it actualy is, for example Constellation/Star, Aurora (astronomy)/Plasma, Rainbow/ Refraction Halfblue 14:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

  • split ask the man on the street, what the "Milky Way" is (if he doesn't live in a city with tons of light pollution) and it's not the galaxy that he'll reply about. Amateur astronomy stargazing books refer to Milky Way as the fuzzy river like thing in the night sky. Milky Way Galaxy and Milky Way (celestial pattern). Milky Way should be an overview articles about both subjects. 70.55.85.126 04:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I favor a split of some sort, and I lean toward option #4 by analogy with the Andromeda Galaxy naming. While certainly by far the primary topic scientifically is the galaxy, culturally (in terms of world mythologies etc.) a very significant body of knowledge exists about the "band of light" and that is a highly notable subject in its own right.--Pharos 01:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Specifiying "galaxy" for the Andromeda galaxy is important because of the use of "Andromeda" in fiction etc..AltiusBimm 21:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, surely the "original" heavenly Andromeda (and so somewhat analogous to our band of light here) would be Andromeda (constellation).--Pharos 22:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Split into Milky Way Galaxy (with a redirect from "Milky Way") and Milky Way (astronomy) (covering the band of light), which is basically option #5, but notice I used the word austronomy to express the context of the filed in which the term is used for the band of light visible from Earth's surface.AltiusBimm 21:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Split the two different things, and move part of Milky Way into Milky Way Galaxy (nothing to disambiguate, therefore no parenthesis). --Juiced lemon 22:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Time for a breather.

I have reverted the current split of the article. Sorry I did not respond to Hqb proposals about possible splits above (my bad) above because they miss the obvious split as supported by reference:

  1. KEEP the Milky Way article as the article covering the band of light and (possibly) create a new article at one of the redirects Milky Way (galaxy) or Milky Way Galaxy.

This seems (in my opinion) to be the best interpretation of all the relevant Wikipidia guidelines, the most important being WP:VERIFY, and WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY.

To clarify further: This does not seem to be a case where you can have a "vote" to make up some new reality. Wikipedia articles have to be based on published reliable sources.

The reality about Milky Way as supported by cited reference above is that it is the name given to the band of light seen in the night time sky. It has had that name for more than 2000 years and is referred to by that exact name in every reference I have looked into.

The reality about Milky Way (the galaxy) is that it could stay under Milky Way but could also be an article on its own since Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. Good reasons to do this?:

  1. Reference cited above that there is a distinction between the two "things"
  2. It avoids confusion such as improper disambiguation and "Easter egg" links.
  3. The article has become too large at this point per dial-up and microbrowser readers and readability concerns.

Please remember again this is not really a "vote" (my bad for calling it that in comments above), at this point other editors need to cite Verifiable text that supports this interpretation of how this article should be arranged or offer counter evidence from reliable sources that shows some other interpretation. Halfblue 14:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Whatever you do, please be carful not to revert unrelated useful edits along the way.[1] FWIW, I support the split into Milky Way for the thing we see in the sky and Milky Way Galaxy for the galaxy itself. Of course, with a prominent hatnote pointing to Milky Way bar! ;-) --Itub 15:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
When two different concepts both can be known by the same name (i.e. the "Milky Way") you should be looking at WP:DISAMBIG (not WP:V) for guidance. But as for V:
  • Encarta [2]: Milky Way is "the large, disk-shaped aggregation of stars, or galaxy, that includes the Sun and its solar system"
  • OED "Milky Way" [3]:
"1a. The irregular, faintly luminous band that circles the night sky, now recognized as composed of billions of stars and corresponding to the main disc of our galaxy, in which are located most of its stars, including the sun; = GALAXY n. 1a."
"1b. A galaxy. Chiefly: spec. the galaxy to which the solar system belongs. Cf. GALAXY n. 1b."
In reference to WP:DISAMBIG, why do you think the band of light (rather than the galaxy) is the primary topic referenced by "Milky Way"? 75.61.111.125 16:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I defer to WP:VERIFY instead of WP:DISAMBIG because (If I am reading Wikipedia guidelines correctly) this is not an ambiguous mater. "Milky Way" is and always has been the name for the band of light in the sky. It is supported by every reliable reference I have come across. It is also supported by common sense (and 2000 years+ of historical precedent). "The Milky Way Galaxy" is named after the "Milky Way". "The Milky Way" candy bar is either named after the "Milky Way" or it is named after "The Milky Way Galaxy" which is named after the "Milky Way". I am not sure an encyclopedia should be deferring to someone’s ignorance of a common object.
The Encarta reference has a few problems that make it vary from Wikipedia norms. It's intro teases (WP:LEAD) i.e. it does not summarize properly. It instructs (WP:NOT#TEXT), telling the reader how to interpret the band of light. It states flat out that the Milky Way is a galaxy with no reference as to the theory supporting this (Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). In other words the article defers to a more prosaic style that would not be supportable on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a dictionary so OED may not be the best example to follow. The fact that OED points to there being two separate "things" may support a split; Wikipedia describes "things", we got two things, so two articles. Halfblue 22:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment The statements, the "Milky Way" refers to the band of light in the sky and the "Milky Way" is the galaxy containing the sun, are both verifiable. Thus I don't see what WP:VERIFY has to do with the discussion. The two "things" are simply two definitions, something which occurs a lot in the English language, and often causes much confusion and argument. The galaxy is called the milky way, the band of light is called the milky way. WK:DISAMBIG seems to be the protocol to use in this instance. Alisdair37 14:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose — I am unclear about the benefit of this split. The milky band across the sky and the Milky Way galaxy are one and the same. Presumably the milky band article exclusively concerns human cultural perspective. So why wouldn't a forked article be sufficient? — RJH (talk) 17:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment they're not one in the same, since the Milky Way Galaxy surrounds us, wherease the Milky Way nebulous thingy in the sky, does not. Aside from that... the Earth's lithosphere and atmosphere are part of the Earth but have separate articles... etc. The band article should be about what can be seen by anything with similar optical capabilities as a human, and not just human cultural perspective... since we have other articles that deal with what people can see as opposed to what's truly there. 132.205.44.5 22:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
      Hmm, I'm not sure I follow this. The band in the sky *does* surround us - because it's just the countless unresolved stars in the galaxy of the same name - it's just that the Earth gets in the way of seeing more than about half of it at any one time. Saying it does not surround us is like saying that the Sun doesn't exist after sunset. Richard B 12:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
      The band of light is not all encompassing. The galaxy englobes us, while the band of light does not. The sun is not overhead when it has set, the sun does not exist 30 degrees off the location of the sun in the sky. The galaxy exists in every single direction, spherically around us. The band of light is what we can see and perceive using our optical capabilities as a human. It does not appear all around us, which is why it is a band of light, instead of having the sky aglow in all directions from horizon to horizon. 132.205.44.5 22:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment
  • Oppose These are clearly the same thing seen it two different contexts. There is absolutely no reason they should not be treated together. older ≠ wiser 23:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
    • There is the issue of article size. It is actually common to split articles about large and complex topics to focus on different aspects. See for example water and energy. --Itub 06:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
      • At 39KB, the present article is not very long, certainly not so as to warrant splintering the topic. older ≠ wiser 10:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
        • Do you also support the current article layout, where ~800 words about the "band of light" is placed in front of substantive discussion of the galaxy? 76.235.157.90 16:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

A Proposal

Here is what we have by reference:

  • Contemporary Astronomy - Second Edition, by Jay M. Pasachoff: "Milky Way" is the name of the band of light and "Milky Way Galaxy" is a different term meaning the whole theoretical galaxy.
  • OED: "Milky Way" means the band of light (def #1) and also means the Galaxy (def #2)
  • The Cambridge Encyclopidia Of Astronomy: Milky Way is "A faint luminous band can be observed in the clear night sky" and describes the discovery of the galaxy through examination of the band of light.

That seems to put the band of light forward as the primary "thing" with this name and draws a distinction between it and the Galaxy in terminology. (more reference can be quoted here).

We seem to have predominant proposals to split and WP:DISAMBIG the article. Following the reliable source material quoted so far and throwing in a big handful of "think of the reader" would give us the following:

  • Make "Milky Way" the disambiguation page or redirect it to Milky Way (disambiguation) (two terms are running neck and neck with the band of light in the lead, but I see other editors point that splitting hairs may be ambiguous as far as the reader's understanding goes).
  • Make "Milky Way (astronomy)" the article about the band of light (that title has a problem because the band of light and the Galaxy are both astronomical topics - we may want to move that article to something like "Milky Way (night sky))"
  • Make "Milky Way (galaxy)" the article about the Galaxy (I would defer if a majority of editors want to make the title "Milky Way Galaxy".

Halfblue 21:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment - Halfblue, this is not a vote. Do not attempt to ram through your proposal. Speciate 22:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I suggest that the appropriate title for an article about the visual phenomenon in the night sky would be "Milky Way (asterism)". Asterism seems to be the most accurate term for a visual phenomenon composed of numerous stars that is not a constellation. Perhaps use of this term will help clarify the discussion on this matter. 67.166.145.20 16:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Question - Has anybody attempted to figure out which articles would link to Milky-Way-the-band-of-light and which to Milky-Way-the-galaxy? I have a funny feeling that a tiny fraction of the articles will link to Milky-Way-the-band-of-light. Speciate 22:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what the dominant usage is, but there are more examples of "band-of-light" then one might naively guess. Most references to the Milky Way from astrology articles mean the band of light. In addition, even some astronomy articles reference the band-of-light when describing the apparent position of an object in the sky. A systematic review of the incoming links might well be helpful. 169.229.142.142 22:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Here's another problem with this bone-headed proposal: there are references to the Milky Way observed in light other than optical. For example, there are all-sky maps that clearly show the Milky Way in infrared light. Would a reference to such an observation be referring to the Milky Way as a galaxy or the Milky Way as a band of light? Nondistinguished 14:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Despite Speciate's un-civil remarks, it is true that this is not a vote. This is a consensus discussion with heavy weight being given towards reliable sources. The scope of an article about the Milky Way (that band of light we see in the night sky) would be what comes to mind when you perform this simple act----> go outside at night and look up. What the heck is that? There is a "thing" in the sky. What’s it called? What is it made of? What is its cultural significance/mythology? Have people been seeing this thing all along? Why don't I see it all the time? A Wikipedia article would describe that thing and all its aspects.
Now there is a second "thing", "The Milky Way Galaxy", a theory built out of observation made of that thing in the sky (and not just that thing... a lot of the objects that tell us about galactic structure... for example Globular cluster, are not seen only within the band of light). That second theoretical thing has its own description, dimensions, mass, material, etc. The article about that second thing would not contain, for example, mythology. It has nothing to do with mythology... it is a construct of theoretical astrophysics.
Re: Asterism. Please note the Milky Way is not an asterism, it is not a pattern of stars... individual stars in the Milky Way are not visible to the naked eye. The Milky Way is the Milky Way, it is kind of unique that way. Halfblue 17:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I understand that to call it an asterism is a broad interpretation of the term... but I could see that there were difficulties with terminology, and I thought it might be the closest choice. Perhaps "nebulosity" would be better, as someone suggested, or perhaps "celestial" as opposed to "astronomy" would better distinguish between observational astronomy and the actual astrophysical object. On the subject of words that may not fit well, I think that to call the astrophysical Milky Way "theoretical" may raise some hackles. It is a theory that has been verified by enough thorough observation to be established scientific fact, much like Einstein's "Theory" of Relativity. Although I understand that from an observational viewpoint, the scientific explanation of what the visual phenomenon is can be secondary to its obvious visual properties as seen from Earth, to many people, the reverse is true. From an astrophysical viewpoint, the scientific explanation of the object is primary and the visual characteristics of it are secondary. Despite previous statements of those from both perspectives, it is evident that those who consider the visual phenomenon to be primary and those who consider the astrophysical object to be primary are about equal in number. It seems that about as many people will type "Milky Way" in search of the visual phenomenon as in search of the physical characteristics of the galaxy as a whole. I have read statements here, however, of people who "know" that "everyone" will expect to find the visual object, and people who "know" that "everyone" will expect to find an entry on the galaxy itself. I was among the latter; I now realize that both stances are incorrect. Anyway, references by adherents of one perspective to the other as "theoretical", "illusory", "trick of light", and so on, will probably hinder the process of reaching consensus. 67.166.145.20 18:37, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

When opinion is split we fall back to basics... what can we cite? This is a case for Wikipedia not being a democracy. That should then be balanced off by needs for an encyclopedia---> The thing used by someone who knows nothing or very little about what they are looking up. There is actualy a simple solution to "If we have two articles, what one should be dominate?, what is the one people are looking for?". The answer is don't make that decision for them. Take them to a disambiguation page and let them chose. Halfblue 19:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that readers should be directed per the principle of least astonishment. If you are that concerned about people being confused by the lead of this article when they are looking for information on the "band of light", just pipe the wikilinks through Milky Way#Earth-based observations. Does that solve the problem? Nondistinguished 21:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Piping to part of the article would not solve the problem because the glowing thing in the night sky is the Milky Way (as supported by reference) and the galaxy is The Milky Way Galaxy. Making up the stucture of the article counter to available reference violates Wikipedia policy. The best way to rectify "astonishment" with actual reference would be to split the article and redirect "Milky Way" to the Disambigulation page that takes the reader to both articles (their choice). Halfblue 03:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Description of Milky Way's Size

In the lead paragraph:

"if the galaxy were reduced to 130 km (80 mi) in diameter, the solar system would be a mere 2 mm (0.08 inches) in width"

Surely these numbers are somewhat arbitrary and don't serve their purpose of helping people to visualise the size of the Milky Way. This sentence should refer to things that people can relate to (e.g. something along the lines of "if the MW were the size of a football stadium, the solar system would be the size of a pea") or be deleted.

212.159.70.80 17:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying, but I must disagree, for these reasons: The numbers aren't arbitrary, they are precisely those every-day distances people can relate to. Second, perhaps more philosophically, I would like encyclopedias and popular science infolets aimed at adults to retain a certain precision. I find myself wondering when I'm once again bombarded with the newly adopted popular units of mass in terms of African Elephants, Jumbojets, or cars, or length units of Football stadiums, Jumbojets or what have you. English isn't my native language, I am not familiar with the Anglo-Saxon culture, I do not know what a pea is, let alone how big it is, or how big one of those football stadiums is you are referring to. But I do know how far a km is, and how small a mm is, and I can very well visualize things on those distances that I am personally familiar with.
In short, I am all for keeping objectivity, accuracy, and internationalization, so that everyone no matter his background can understand. Regards, 145.97.223.162 10:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The Milky Way is moving at around 552 km/s with respect to the photons of the CMB?

The article states that "The Milky Way is moving at around 552 km/s with respect to the photons of the CMB". How can this be? I thought the theory of relativity postulated that the speed of light (hence, photons) is constant (~300,000 km/s) regardless of the frame of reference. --Itub 11:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the idea is to use the CMB as a fixed reference frame and calculate the MW motion relative to this frame. I've clarified it in the article, although it probably still needs some work Chrislintott 13:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

RFC: Structure of this article and potential split

Template:RFCsci

This is an RFC request for additional input regarding the name/focus of this article and potential split into two articles. The structure of this article was recently changed (August 23rd) from focusing on the galaxy to focusing on the "band of light". Many editors believe the two concepts should be split into seperate articles but don't agree on what should be at "Milky Way" or what the split articles should be called. See: #The "Milky Way" and "The Milky Way Galaxy" are two different things.

I support the split. "Milky Way" should be the phenomenon in the sky as seen from the earth. "Milky Way Galaxy" should be the objective astronomical science about the galaxy as a whole. Each article should have an appropriate link to the other in its lead. VisitorTalk 06:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I oppose the split. The "Milky Way", apart from also referring to a chocolate bar, is primarily used in reference to the Galaxy. If I entered Milky Way and pressed Go, I would expect to be taken to an article on the Milky Way galaxy, not an article on a band of light in the sky. The band of light is simply the galaxy as seen from earth, so I don't agree that the "Milky Way" and "The Milky Way Galaxy" are two different things. I also read the discussion and am in full agreement with those who oppose the the split. Alisdair37 12:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Oppose The name "galaxy" means milk. Also, why should we distinguish between observations that have be made with the naked eye in the distant past and observations made more recently with more sophisticated instruments? The present article is structured nicely from a historical point of view, going from prehistory to the discovery that there are other galaxies besides the Milky Way, to the present. Splitting the article will leave both as pathetically small rumps, especially the main Milky Way as splash of stars article. Speciate 21:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Oppose My experience is that Milky Way generally refers to the galaxy and the article can discuss the band of light without a split being helpful. WilliamKF 04:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Sagittarius Star Cloud documents a piece of the galaxy that only exists because of how we see things, since it's not a gravitationally bound object, or formerly one... We only "see" it as a separate piece because of various effects on light that is blocked by intervening objects. 132.205.44.5 22:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I've come here in response to the RFC. I've never visited or edited this article to my knowledge, I'm just here to provide an unbiased opinion on the discussion at hand. The first thing I've noticed is that all dictionary definitions that I've been able to find of "Milky Way" refer to it as a galaxy, not "a band of light". Even more importantly, the vast majority of Google Scholar results that I looked at when searching "Milky Way" obviously refer to it as a galaxy, not just as a band of light. Lastly a comparison: it seems like focusing this article on the band of light would be the same as focusing the article on the sun towards sunlight (since that is what we see) and having a different article about the physical sun, I suppose called Sun (star). In short, it seems to me that the main focus of this article needs to be the physical galaxy and the "band of light" could be discussed either in this article, or if there is enough unique content that doesn't directly pertain to the galaxy (not sure how that would be), an article on its own. —Mrand T-C 15:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

PS. There is also the issue of the present structure, where a lengthy discussion of the "band of light" was inserted in front of the discussion of the galaxy. Even if people want to keep the content together, there is the question of whether or the present layout is desirable/optimal. 76.235.157.90 16:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't really view it as an issue that needs to be discussed until the "band of light" dispute is (hopefully) quickly resolved - after which time I'm sure that the article's layout will be corrected/improved. Until then, it's just making unnecessary work.—Mrand T-C 18:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment. I don't mind whether the article is split or not, but either way, the galaxy as a whole is the primary topic. From someone who is an amateur astronomer, I would expect to see the Milky Way article discuss the galaxy as a whole first. Doing otherwise makes Wikipedia look very silly in my opinion. I personally think that the discussion of or article about the band of light should include, say, a map showing where various features are in the band - e.g. the various star clouds, the open clusters, nebulae etc. The Milky Way (astronomy) article could be made into a decent article on its own (actually looks like someone has already created it). But the discussion of the Milky Way as the galaxy needs to be the focus of this article. Richard B 12:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. I've given some thought to this, and in my opinion, this topic would be best served as one article about the galaxy, which then later on describes the galaxy's view from Earth. A second article, something like say, the Visible extent of the Milky Way could then be created to give a detailed look at the band in the sky and its visible features - which would be treated as a sub-page of the Milky Way article. Richard B 14:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm here because of the RfC. Yes, User:Halfblue is correct that the name, "Milky Way" all by itself most literally means the band of light one sees when looking at the dark sky. However, when you look at the Milky Way, you are looking at parts of the galaxy with the same name, and, as the list of papers published about the galaxy that omit the word "galaxy" shows, many people simply omit "galaxy" when referring to the "Milky Way Galaxy." Unfortunately, I doubt a linguistic study has been done about the most prominent use of "Milky Way", so there probably ISN'T a source to point the way towards which name should be used. That leaves us with our judgement as editors. My judgement is that Milky Way should refer to the galaxy, and it should include a small subsection on what the Milky Way Galaxy looks like from earth. Alternatively, Milky Way could go directly to Milky Way (disambiguation), this article could be at "Milky Way Galaxy," and the "band of light viewed from earth" bit could be elsewhere. It's simply awkward linguistics that are at the base of all this, I think. "Milky Way" is correct, short, pithy, and clear when describing "the band of light viewed from earth" except that it is the most common way to refer to the name of our galaxy. As wikipedia articles use common names in preference to scientific names for organisms, it makes sense to keep the galaxy at what people call it, which is "Milky Way." Enuja (talk) 21:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Oppose split on philosophical grounds alone I commented above about what name this article, or different parts of this article, should have. I didn't not specifically address the idea of splitting the article, because it seems obvious to me that it should be split if and only if there is enough information for two separate articles and this article is too long. Yes, one can distinguish referring to light in the sky and where the light comes from, but the subjects are inextricably intertwined. Presumably, people interested in one (say, what our galaxy is like) would be interested in the other (how much of it we can see in what lighting conditions, and how we discovered our galaxy), even if they didn't think about it before coming the article. The same is presumably true in the other direction, as well. If the articles are split for length and readability they should very prominently reference each other to support that great advantage of Wikipedia; being able to learn more than you meant to when you go to an article. Enuja (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Enuja (talk • contribs) 21:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment can we agree that the concept of a band of light, called "Milky Way" exists? And that a Galaxy known as the "Milky Way" exists? That the band of light is part of the galaxy? That the galaxy derives its name from the band of light? Now then... Since the people have perceived this band of light since the depths of antiquity as a thing and that the concept of the all encompassing galaxy is not the same as the ancient idea, why is separate articles not appropriate? 132.205.44.5 22:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment - This is not a vote. Do not attempt to ram through this split until consensus has been reached. Speciate 22:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Question - Has anybody attempted to figure out which articles would link to Milky-Way-the-band-of-light and which to Milky-Way-the-galaxy? I have a funny feeling that a tiny fraction of the articles will link to Milky-Way-the-band-of-light. Speciate 22:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Strong Oppose The idea of the Milky Way as a band of light that is separate from the Milky Way as a galaxy is a distinction without a difference. We don't have two articles for the object known as Jupiter (one for the planet and one for the point of light seen in the night sky) for the same reason. We can have sections in the article which deal with naked-eye observations of the Milky Way, but separating the article into two is really problematic. If this were 1900, there might be a case for separating the concepts since what the Milky Way actually is was a controversy at the time subject to, for example, the Shapley-Curtis debate. However, today there exists no controversy as to what the Milky Way is, and therefore we should not separate the articles. Nondistinguished 11:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

What’s in a name?

Opening another heading because we seem to be having a problem even naming something. There seem to be some basic problems with the points trying to be made here.

Reference

A lot of editors are expressing an opinion but very few are putting forward any reference to support it. Wikipedia articles are not based on opinion. Material must be attributed to a reliable, published source (WP:VERIFY). Editors at this point should be putting forward actual references to support one view or another as to what the title of an article even is. I have put forward two reliable references so far and there have been no reliable counter references.

Googling

  • Google is not a reliable source, in fact it is not a source at all, it is a search engine. Searching for instances of a word as it appears in a title name gives you a result that is left to interpretation. When people come up with titles they use shorthand terms because everyone knows what they are talking about. If I was at a symposium where and an astronomer stood up and said "my paper is "A Catalog of Parameters for Globular Clusters in the Milky Way", I would say "Excuse me--- do you mean within the confines of the band of light?", he would say "no, I mean in reference to objects in orbit around the Galaxy".
  • Trying to establish something via a Google search could come under Original research, i.e. the editor is researching the instances of something and then interpreting that research.
  • A better use of Google would be Google Book Search Try doing a Google Book Search of "the milky way is" and see what comes up.

The article I started editing had one major flaw: If you tried to look for or follow a link about the "thing" you saw in the night sky (the "Milky Way"), you found out that "thing" had no primary article and in fact you had to dig to find out anything about it under its own heading. That was a major over cite. Halfblue 00:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I performed the Google Book Search advised above. The fourth result, and the first result that consisted of a definition of the term, was from The Physics of Interstellar Dust by Endrik Krugel, p.425. The quote is, "The Milky Way is a rotating stellar system of some 1011 stars that has been created about 15 x 109 years ago." My survey of the first ten pages of results suggests a ratio of asterism to galaxy references of roughly 2:1, but if publications older than 50 years are left out, the ratio falls to about 1:1... actually about 6:5 in favor of the galaxy definition of the term. I hope this data is helpful in the quest for consensus. 67.166.145.20 04:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Your entire argument seems to be "Milky Way" means "band of light" AND "Milky Way" does not mean "galaxy". Most of us think that argument is simply absurd, and you've already been given a number of references where "Milky Way" does in fact also mean "galaxy". I don't know what else to say. Can you acknowledge that the same term "Milky Way" is in fact used to mean two different things? If yes, please explain why the "band of light" is the more important of those two, vis a vis WP:DISAMBIG? 76.235.157.90 03:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment Halfblue, I don't think anyone is calling Google a source. Google is a tool, and one of the most valuable ones we have as editors, and using it to find or verify sources is in NO way WP:No_original_research. Original research refers to "using unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories" in an article - not how you search for a list of potential sources (which are then subject to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources). —Mrand T-C 11:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
My argument is not that "Milky Way" means "band of light" AND "Milky Way" does not mean "galaxy". My argument is that the "Milky Way (band of light)" is a "thing" and that "Milky Way Galaxy" can be a different "thing" (as per reliable sources and current Wikipedia guidelines). I am not saying "Milky Way Galaxy" has to be a different "thing" (in the context of Wikipedia... the encyclopedia that defines "things"), but it may be a good idea because of all the rationales stated above by me and other editors. As to using Google generated word counts, the Original Research I am pointing out is the instantaneous interpretation of a word count. That is not using Google to find a source, that is using Google as a research tool to create your own source (Original research). Such a count can tell you "if" something is, but it is not very useful in telling you "what" something is. Halfblue 20:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment Why not split horizon and visible horizon? Speciate 09:41, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The band of light in the sky is the same thing as a galaxy! Similarly that big ball of light seen in the daytime we call "the sun" is the same thing as a star. We don't disambiguate between Sun (star) and Sun (daytime light orb) for the same reason we don't disambiguate between Milky Way (galaxy) and Milky Way (band of light). Nondistinguished 11:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I would have agreed with this position as a simple statement of fact before I researched and thought about the distinction more closely as a result of this debate. I now accept that there is a significant important distinction between the visible asterism that we call the Milky Way in the night sky and the Milky Way Galaxy that we live in. The band of light that we see in the sky is not identical to the Milky Way Galaxy as a whole, but rather to a subset of the Milky Way Galaxy; specifically, the stars that lie in the disc of the Galaxy that are too far from us to be resolved individually with the naked eye, but whose light is visible to us as a bright band when viewed as an agglomerate. To underline the distinction, there are many, many visible stars in the sky around us that are very clearly part of the Milky Way Galaxy, and also very clearly not part of the band of light we see in the sky that we call the Milky Way. The rationale that a page for the visual phenomenon is needed mirrors the rationale for the pages on the constellations and other asterisms. Whereas the Milky Way Galaxy is an important subject and worthy of an entry because of its significance in terms of our knowledge of the structure and arrangement of matter in our three-dimensional universe, the Milky Way asterism in the night sky is an important subject and worthy of an entry because of its significance in practical observational astronomy as a distinct visual phenomenon that other visible objects can be described in relation to, as well as for the historical and cultural significance of the beliefs and myths that have arisen from ancient observations of the Milky Way celestial phenomenon. Which concept is "primary" and "most important", I suspect, is mostly a matter of which field is of more interest to the particular reader: astrophysical science, backyard observational astronomy, or history and mythology of the celestial sphere. Those of us who find one of these fields of much more interest and importance can tend to overlook the reality that there are probably just as many people, scholars and laymen alike, for whom one of the other fields is of much more immediate personal importance. As this debate has shown, the two phenomena of the Milky Way Galaxy and the Milky Way asterism tend to be conflated, but in reality are seperate but tightly related phenomena. It is evident from the tone of this debate that the conflation of these concepts has the potential to cause considerable miscommunication and consternation between those who approach the subject from opposite sides. As one whose primary interest was the astrophysical object of the Milky Way Galaxy, it took time and effort for me to accept that this is not the primary "true" meaning of the term "Milky Way" for every knowledgeable person, but my research has shown me that, contrary to my expectations, there seem to be about as many usages of "Milky Way" that refer to the visual phenomenon that consists of the light from part of the Galaxy as there are that refer to the physical Galaxy as a whole. More, if older historical usages are taken into account. From this, I conclude that disambiguation and a split is desirable and necessary, especially because, as someone whose primary interest is the astrophysical object, the current layout of the combined article which gives precedence to the related celestial phenomenon is highly dissatisfactory. I hope the issue is resolved soon so that those who are only interested in the astrophysical object can research it here without having to wade through info on the celestial object, and vice versa. 67.166.145.20 13:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Poor rationale. The asterism of the Sun is also not identical to the Sun as a whole but rather to a subset of the star; specifically, the visible light that emanates from the photosphere. The distinction you are trying to make is that the Milky Way's emanation of light is somehow special in a way that other emanations of light are not. To take your rationale to its logical conclusion, every astronomical object on Wikipedia would have two different articles: one on the object and one on the image of the object. What makes the Milky Way Galaxy a galaxy is the visible asterism that we see from the Earth. If we didn't see the Milky Way band of light we would conclude that we did not live in a galaxy. That there are other objects in the Milky Way that are not a part of the visible asterism is irrelevant to the discussion. Having two articles is splitting hairs for no reason except to separate topics that are necessarily intertwined. People who are interested in different aspects of the Milky Way are encouraged to write sections in the article about the Milky Way. Creating a new article as a POV fork is strictly frowned upon by Wikipedia policy. I agree that the article is far from perfect as it now stands and I also think that the "galaxy" nature of the Mikly Way should take precedence. The answer is not to send those who think otherwise packing to a new article. That kind of Balkanization does not help readers: it only encourages editors from not collaborating with each other. I understand your frustration with trying to get the article in better shape. It is a hard process. However, splitting articles because it is hard to work with other editors is never the right move. There is only one encyclopedia. Nondistinguished 14:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe you have mistaken my meaning, and my attitude on the matter. The rationale that an individual article for the Milky Way asterism is called for mirrors the rationale for the articles on the constellations Leo and Ursa Major, and the rationale for the existing articles on the asterisms of the Summer Triangle and the Big Dipper. Each holds enough specific individual significance to warrant its own article despite the fact that the stellar components of these objects are unrelated to each other except in terms of their angular relationships from the perspective of Earth, and in the case of Ursa Major/Big Dipper, despite the fact that one is a subset of the other. Their significance is related to their utility in observational astronomy and their cultural and historical notability. This debate, and the research I have done in response to it, have shown me that the same is true for the Milky Way asterism as distinct from the Milky Way Galaxy. I make this assessment not out of frustration or to dismiss the "other side," but out of respect for the realization, that, despite my previous sloppy thinking to the contrary, each "side" has a valid perspective and that both concepts of what the Milky Way "is" have genuine validity and precedent in modern usage, although they are usually conflated to mean the same thing. From an astrophysical perspective, the Milky Way "is" the Galaxy, and the visible band of light is an incidental side effect. From the perspective of the fields of observational astronomy, astrology, and other cultural and historical studies of the sky, the Milky Way "is" the band of light, and the fact that it is composed of distant stars in the plane of our galaxy is of only incidental importance to them in their fields. Both perspectives are valid, and Wikipedia covers all of these fields equally. Just because our field of interest covers the astrophysical object and the band of light seems incidental to us, does not invalidate the fact that to others, the band of light is the primary object of interest, and the galaxy as a whole is of incidental importance to them. Wikipedia is not solely devoted to astrophysics; observational astronomy and stellar navigation, and astrology, are also fields that it covers, however you may feel about those subjects personally. As the examples of constellations and asterisms I cited above shows, precedence indicates that a split is warranted. 67.166.145.20 15:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Your mirrored rationale does not apply in this situation. The Milky Way is seen in our sky because there is a galaxy we inhabit called the Milky Way. Constellations appear in the sky because of chance alignments that have nothing to do with a physical object associated with them. Therefore this is a completely inapt comparison. The other "side" in this case is basically trying to say that there is a meaningful difference between the Milky Way as we see it and the Milky Way as a physical object. As I pointed out, this difference is irrelevant when we are describing in totality what the Milky Way is. Let the people who want to describe the Milky Way as a band of light describe it as a band of light. They can do it at this article. All perspectives are welcome at Wikipedia. All perspectives, in fact, are welcome in this very article. That's the way it should be. Since your attempt to cite precedence was faulty, I'm going to go ahead and say there is no rationale for splitting the articles and begin the proccess of merging the inaptly named Milky Way (astronomy) article back here. Nondistinguished 19:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Your conclusion appears not to reflect consensus. It has been established by cited references here that there are meaningful differences between the Milky Way Galaxy and the visual phenomenon of the Milky Way in the night sky. There may not be any meaningful astrophysical differences, but that is not the only relevant way to distinguish between them. There are sufficient cultural, historical, and observational differences to treat them as two separate things. I understand that you do not agree with this statement, but given the disagreement, and the considerable work many have done to (successfully) back up their claims that there is solid reason to treat these phenomena seperately, I believe a split is warranted, once consensus can be achieved. I concede that the article you wish to merge back in was a premature attempt to split the page, and is redundant with the current structure of this article, so I don't oppose that particular re-merge at this time; nonetheless, I hope that a more thorough consensus will precede any further major changes. 67.166.145.20 19:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
The "cultural, historical, and observational differences" are referenced by what source? The best anyone seems to have been able to do is show that the OED has a few definitions. However, the OED is pedantic in its disambiguation, much moreso than Wikipedia. Therefore, I ask you, who else bifurcates the subject as you propose? What reference talks about the Milky Way as two separate things? Nondistinguished 19:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I'll go hunt down some more sources, but to start with, how about the textbook reference that Halfblue cited numerous times above, which I'll requote here for convenience: "Don’t be confused by terminology: the Milky Way itself is a band of light that we can see from the Earth, and the Milky Way Galaxy is composed of a hundred billion stars plus many different types of gas, dust, planets, etc. The Milky Way is that part of the Milky Way Galaxy that we can see with the naked eye in our night time sky". -- Contemporary Astronomy - Second Edition, by Jay M. Pasachoff, P.414. I encountered other similar references last night in astronomy textbooks as I researched the terminology myself, and the very discussion above itself, as well as the sources I searched last night that did not provide formal definitions, seem quite evenly split between references to the galaxy and those to the band of light. Given this widespread ambiguity about what the term's primary meaning is to different people, I think the idea of a split should not be rejected out of hand.
Back with more references shortly. 67.166.145.20 20:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
... And after further review of my research from last night, I find that most of the sources that disambiguate specifically between the concept of "Milky-Way-as-galaxy" and "Milky-Way-as-band-of-light" are either written by the same author I just quoted above from Halfblue's research, or older works which may not reflect modern usage. Other sources that I had put, on initial survey, into representing the "Milky-Way-as-band-of-light" point of view do in fact refer to the term in that context, but their usage is not inconsistent with the view that there is no meaningful distinction between the two. Prior to your arrival, the consensus seemed to me to indicate that there were more than adequate grounds to distinguish between the two terms, and the research I did last night, in a somewhat sleep-deprived state, seemed to support that stance. I still believe that there's no reason not to disambiguate, and your arguments that they are one and the same and have no meaningful differences are not persuasive to me. But as far as conclusive research on that subject goes, I'll concede defeat for the moment.
Incidentally, although I disagree with your logic in this thread and with the wisdom of your decision to unilaterally revert the article, I must say that the version that's up now impresses me greatly. It seems an excellent synthesis of the GA-rated version and the work that's been done since. I hope that no important substantive additions were lost in the process, but from what I can see, it looks like the important improvements that I'm aware of were integrated well. I agree that this version is better, but I suspect enough others may disagree to create some substantial conflict on the consensus front. For now, I'll step back and wait to see what happens. Good luck. 67.166.145.20 21:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Additional Reference which I came across by chance while searching the web on a separate project: The site eSky, which appears to be a reliable astronomy website with a couple of awards under its belt, deliberately disambiguates between the Milky Way visual phenomenon and the Galaxy. Its (single) entry on the two topics is titled "Milky Way" and subtitled "The Galaxy". It consists of a short introduction, a section on the visual phenomenon, then a section on the galaxy. The introduction reads: "A bright band that encircles the entire night sky. The Milky Way is, in fact, the main body of our own spiral galaxy, viewed from within: binoculars or a telescope will resolve individual stars in the bright mass." The section on the galaxy opens with: "Strictly, the term 'Milky Way' refers just to the hazy band of light in the night sky. Through popular use, though, it has come to be the accepted term for the spiral galaxy that we call home (though properly this should be referred to simply as 'the Galaxy', with a capital 'G')." Throughout most of the rest of the article the term "Milky Way" is consistently used to refer to the visual phenomenon, and the term "The Galaxy" or "The Milky Way Galaxy" for our galaxy. The one exception is the paragraph where our galaxy is compared with other galaxies; there, they refer to our galaxy simply as "The Milky Way", perhaps to avoid overuse of the word "galaxy" in that paragraph. Hope this is helpful. 67.166.145.20 03:58, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Revert to GA version

At the top of this talkpage is a link to a reviewed GA version. Comparing that article to this one is night-and-day. I think we should go back to that article and work in some of the naked-eye observational stuff into the article. What do others think? Nondistinguished 14:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Bad idea. The GA article had one major flaw: if I tried to pipe link to that thing in the sky from an article where it was in that context, it led the reader to a dead end, an article that was primarily about a different theoretical thing with no way to resolve it. It was an article that was technically correct and encyclopedically deficient. (I have made remarks about encyclopedic requirements here [4]). Halfblue 18:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
This objection makes no sense. The article was better in its previous incarnation. It may have been deficient, but it is better than this one. The way to address problems is to add to that version, not to start from this flawed version. Nondistinguished 19:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Nondistinguished -- the current form of the article is poor compared to its previous incarnation. It really needs to be reverted. -- Moondigger 20:24, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I do agree with Nondistinguished. Let's improve from a good article, rather than a total change of focus as seems to be the case. Whilst we're at it, let's also improve on Milky Way (astronomy) to prevent the "dead end" that Halfblue suggests currently exists. Richard B 20:37, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The problem is Milky Way (astronomy) should properly redirect to this article. As was pointed out by editors wiser than myself above, splitting the article is okay if it's done for length. We shouldn't be doing it simply to split the article, however, since the two "distinct" topics are interrelated. Nondistinguished 21:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Fine, but it's an option to have it as a "subpage", i.e. basically a "For more information see ........" I think you could add considerable depth to it, which might be too much on this article. Richard B 21:07, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
But we have articles on ship classes and individual ships, and those are interrelated, and some of them are stub-short (all ships in the class and the class article itself). Here we have sufficient material for non-stub articles for each topic. (and an overview article, for the galaxy, band of light, and mythology). As it is, the treatment of the subject in the GA article is severely biased/greatly weighted towards the Galaxy concept, a split article would give good weighting to the night sky concept, instead of having it lost in the galaxy article. 132.205.44.5 22:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
It's not biased, it's just incomplete and the current version is a hack-job. I suggest adding more to this article and if it gets too unweildly to content fork then. Content forking now is putting the cart before the horse. Nondistinguished 12:29, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Please stop

I am reverting the article back (again) to its state as of 17:28, 10 September 2007 User:GRBerry. Please note: there needs to be reliable sourced reference to back up these revision, such as the ones I have provided. Wikipedia is not a democracy so you cannot simply make up articles based on consensus and you definitely can't base it on your personal views. There is absolutely no reason to revert this article all the way back to a year ago unless there are many other things wrong with it (things that need to be pointed out and justified with reliable sources).Halfblue 03:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The article wasn't reverted "all the way back to a year ago". You are mischaracterizing the situation and behaving like you own the place. Nondistinguished 12:29, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Questions

I have a couple of questions:

  • If the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy is its brightest feature, then how come we can't see it from Earth, when we can see other features of the galaxy (eg. the Death Valley photo)?
  • If our galactic core is indeed a black hole, how can it be "bright" at all? Black holes get their name from being black, ie. non-light-emitting. I understand supermassive black holes are less dense than other black holes, so is that the answer? They're so much "less-dense" that they can reflect light?

I'm curious about these and also suggest that they be addressed in the article.

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
06:40, September 12, 2007
The black hole itself is not the brightest feature. What we see associated with the black hole is the infalling gas that is radiating mostly in the x-rays. Nondistinguished 12:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

New section: Terminology

I have added a new section, "Terminology", that address the concerns raised by the current controversy in accordance with available cited references. More skilled wiki-editors than I can probably improve upon/flesh out/clean up the section, and I would ask that Halfblue add the ISBN number of the textbook he quotes above to provide additional corroboration. I would suggest a similar section be added to the beginning of any Milky Way (galaxy) article, so that the close relationship between the two articles would be properly reflected with a prominent interlink and verifiable justification for the disambiguation. I further suggest that such a Milky Way (galaxy) article be created with all haste, based on the improved version of the prior GA-rated article which many of us have worked on over the last few days. I also recommend a redirect of Milky Way to Milky Way (disambiguation) and a rename of this page to Milky Way (celestial), Milky Way (night sky), or something similar. 67.166.145.20 12:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I started working on this this morning (article revisions are warming up in the bullpen). One problem is technical. It looks to me like the talk page will be totally lost in these moves... or is there some WikiTechnical jigerypokery that can be preformed to keep the talk page at one of the articles? Halfblue 12:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Please wait before moving anything. Please leave as is unless consensus shows otherwise. You can't just ignore a significant number of "opposes" for splitting the article. Richard B 14:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I suspect there is, but I am not an expert in these matters. Since talk pages can be edited, however (after all, that's all we do when we converse here), it seems to me that a transplant should be perfectly feasible. I strongly recommend that the content of this talk page, especially the archives, be maintained at the Milky Way (galaxy) page, since that context is the one which most of the previous discussion has centered around. What is your preference as regards a subtitle specifier for this article? 67.166.145.20 12:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
If we redirect to Milky Way (disambiguation) there wont be a "this article any longer ;^). I put in a question at this users talk [5] on this matter but i agree talk should be kept with the Galaxy. I like Milky Way (celestial), it works as well as the (night sky) sub. The reworked GA article would make a good Milky Way (galaxy) article. I noticed it loses the info box. Not sure how other editors will like that. I personally did not like "the box" because it looked at our Galaxy in a sort of fictional "out side our universe" view. I will leave that to other editors to decide if and when in the future. Halfblue 12:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
As regards "this article" I meant the context that the text of the current article represents; my apologies for the ambiguity. As regards the info box, it was added back with substantial improvements. May I ask that you refrain from words such as "fictional"? That seems to fall into the category of consensus-corrosive terms that I brought up yesterday. 67.166.145.20 13:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The talk pages have been connected through the archives. I suggest when making archive 3 that you redirect Talk:Milky Way Galaxy/Archive 3 to Talk:Milky Way/Archive 3. That way people will be able to find everything easily. No moving is required. Nondistinguished 14:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Excellent. Could you assist me with proper citation of the paragraph I added to each article? I lack sufficient wikiskillz to do so properly, and I suspect an inline citation is called for given the controversy this issue has caused. 67.166.145.20 15:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi guys. See my comments at the bottom of this page please, as there's some minor technical things that need correcting before moving on. Thanks
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
16:58, September 12, 2007

Proposed compromise

I decided to see how other encyclopedia handle this issue and found that Brittanica has an article on Milky Way Galaxy which, in my mind, is a beautiful way around this. This is the first line from Brittanica:

large spiral system consisting of several billion stars, one of which is the Sun. It takes its name from the Milky Way, the irregular luminous band of stars and gas clouds that stretches across the sky.

Great. So let's do this. Make this article the article on "Milky Way" and make a new article called "Milky Way Galaxy".

There is only one problem: we must disambiguate the wikilinks. Someone needs to go through and make sure that all the pipes to Milky Way are repiped to Milky Way Galaxy because, indeed, the majority of the links to Milky Way are intended to be linked to galaxy rather than to the "band of light".

I have decided to be bold and have split the articles along these lines. How does this sound?

Nondistinguished 14:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

An additional problem is how things are referred to in this article. This article should only refer to the galaxy when talking about the Milky Way as a galaxy. Oftentimes, this is muddled in the text. Nondistinguished 14:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with this solution, and it appears exactly identical to an earlier solution proposed by Halfblue. It will take time to clear up the existing ambiguities, and clean up the wikilinks; I feel this should not be regarded as particularly remarkable, since Wikipedia is a work in progress. Onward. 67.166.145.20 14:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I point out the similarity between this and Andromeda Galaxy. Nondistinguished 14:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. I suggest the "Names and Mythology" section of each page be swapped. Objections? 67.166.145.20 15:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Nope. Nondistinguished 16:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

We need a BOT

There are thousands of wikilinks to Milky Way and the vast majority are intended to be linked to Milky Way Galaxy. The only way we are going to get through this is if someone makes a BOT to handle this massive disambiguation. Perhaps we should put in a request at Wikipedia:Village pump or Wikipedia:Disambiguation. This is going to be difficult otherwise. Nondistinguished 14:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Surely the bot would need to check for context to see what it needs to disambig towards? Is that possible?? Richard B 15:25, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes. A bot would recognize the link and then a human being would either accept or reject the change. The bot would be used to navigate between the pages, the human could just sit there reading the contextual sentence and make the decision. I estimate that doing this by hand would take about 200 links checked per hour. A bot would allow upwards of 1000. Nondistinguished 16:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps an organized division of labor is called for. 67.166.145.20 15:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I hate to do this to you but this compromise thing wasn't really done right. In creating a new article for "galaxy" you left the entire article history behind, on what would now become a redirect. The proper thing to do would've been to perform a page move from Milky Way to Milky Way Galaxy, which would've moved the history and talk page automatically.
This isn't a big deal to fix though. Whoever made the Milky Way Galaxy article should blank it and tag it for speedy deletion using {{db-author}}. Once it's deleted, we can perform the proper move.
I think there should also be some discussion to what the new title should be. "Milky Way (galaxy)" seems more appropriate to me than "Milky Way Galaxy", but that's for you to decide so you should discuss it.
Thanks, and let me know if you have any questions.
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
16:38, September 12, 2007
Yowch. Okay, I'll stop futzing with the articles until after these techinical issues are dealt with. Thanks for the advisory. Regarding the name, the precedent cited is of the Andromeda Galaxy and others, but if there are any strong differences of opinion, it doesn't matter that much to me personally. After further consideration, I developed an opinion; see below. The concession to these particular choices of article names by the most polarized figures on each side may well be the linchpin on which peaceful consensus hangs, in my opinion. 67.166.145.20 17:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
PS - If there's been work done to the Galaxy article that you don't want to lose, you can copy the code from that page and save it somewhere so it can be pasted again once the page is moved. Just a thought.
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
17:09, September 12, 2007
PPS - I just noticed that the Galaxy article was actually created a long time ago, so it may not qualify for speedy deletion using db-author. I'll ask an admin how to go about this. However if we just use Milky Way (galaxy) as the new title instead, we can perform the move now without any problem (since the article doesn't exist at all yet), so you should probably discuss which title you want to use now.
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
17:15, September 12, 2007
Okay. I've saved the current state of the Galaxy article, but I'd appreciate other redundant backups, in case my setup doesn't handle the special characters right (my system can be iffy about that sometimes).
The pause to check for more widespread consensus is probably a good idea too. I know those of us most active in the debate also have the most energy and enthusiasm to implement changes once our differences have been settled, but we may want to allow some more time for others to weigh in before forging boldly onward. Sorry if my own enthusiasm has offended anyone. 67.166.145.20 17:25, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I've also saved the Galaxy article locally, in case it's needed.
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
17:50, September 12, 2007
I think that Milky Way (galaxy) is an inappropriate title. For example, Brittanica uses Milky Way Galaxy for their article. The appropriate thing to do is use that title. I am more comfortable with using that title since it identifies the object properly. Nondistinguished 18:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I am (now) in complete agreement with this position, and I believe it will prove to be the option which is most conducive to consensus. 67.166.145.20 19:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I db-authored it. Whenever it's properly deleted, will the first person who sees that it is done redo the thing? Thanks. Nondistinguished 18:50, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Looks like it doesn't need to happen that way after all... see discussion below and the current history page of Milky Way Galaxy. Can you deal with the longer approval process to get the old history page switched over? I think it has many benefits, as I lay out below. 67.166.145.20 23:02, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to make one other suggestion. Rather than going through fixing wikilinks, I would suggest that once the move is complete, Milky Way should stay redirected to Milky Way Galaxy, rather than to the disambiguation page. This is its most common use, as has been stated already, and if thousands of articles already link to it that way then there's no reason to create a problem. We can keep the "other uses" links up at the top of the Galaxy page, and maybe expand it a little to describe what can be found at the "night sky" article.
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
19:04, September 12, 2007
I agree with this idea personally, but suspect it may less conducive to consensus. As I see it, the glue that is holding this budding consensus together is the concept of strict adherence to the most technically accurate verbiage as shown by referenced citation, despite individual preconceptions as to the technical meanings of particular terms. By that principle, I think that the current proposed agreement (that the article devoted to the phenomenon in the night sky should properly be the one entitled simply "Milky Way", while the one devoted to the Galaxy should be properly entitled "Milky Way Galaxy") is optimal. I'm willing to wait for other opinions, but I encourage other editors to consider this perspective carefully and refer to the sources cited if they have not already done so, before any rush to judgment that may upset the balance of this remarkable new truce. 67.166.145.20 19:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Just so I have this straight, the plan is that "Milky Way" should be the title of the article describing the night sky? When I was originally asked about this move I was told "Milky Way" was going to redirect to the disambiguation page. I just want to make sure everyone involved here is "on the same page" (no pun intended).
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
19:41, September 12, 2007
Correct. Earlier it seemed that a redirect to the disambiguation page would be the best compromise that could be hoped for, but the new one as proposed by Nondistinguished is, as I see it, a far more optimal compromise than I would have thought could be realistically hoped for. It's a win-win situation that I had seen as ideal but unachievable, in that each side gets what's most important to them: acknowledgement that the visual phenomenon is indeed the most technically accurate choice to be named simply "Milky Way", and a high-quality, appropriately named article at "Milky Way Galaxy" that represents a continuation of the work that has been done here all along, with a solid foundation in good science. I can't think of a better possible solution, and I'm very glad that Nondistinguished extended this olive branch. 67.166.145.20 20:06, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, thanks for the clarification. I probably should've read through the history of this discussion before getting involved, so sorry about that. It sounds like a good compromise to me, so now all we need is to make sure of the new name before moving forward.
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
20:13, September 12, 2007
I asked an admin about the move. If/when it's determined that Milky Way Galaxy should be the new name, a move request will need to be made at Wikipedia:Requested moves. This is so that the histories of the two pages can be merged. If Milky Way (galaxy) is chosen instead, the page can be moved without such a posting.
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
19:54, September 12, 2007
I reviewed the description of proper procedure for move requests at the aforementioned Wikipedia:Requested Moves. It appears to me that this particular process has a built-in delay to ensure consensus, which seems quite useful in this case, to prevent (umm... I mean allow... whoops) those of us (including me) who may be overeager about this proposed compromise to ensure that we have the consensus we think we do. Although from my standpoint it appears the most polarized viewpoints on each side have reached a win-win compromise, this idea deserves more time to percolate into the community at large. In the meantime, it seems, if I read the procedure right, that the appropriate move is to make the official move request now, and use the mandated waiting period of 5 days or more in order to ensure consensus. In the meantime, it seems like we may be able to leave each article at its current location and continue to develop each of them... this may be a good "trial period" to give others who may be unsure a chance to see how they feel about the situation. Does the above seem accurate, or have I misinterpreted a point of procedure or technical requirements? 67.166.145.20 21:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

...Sheepishly enters sub-heading... Sorry for all the created work, I knew one possible outcome of trying to make corrections to this article is that a lot of links may have to be updated. I have actualy encountered other articles that have had a basic "does this really belong here" problem where everyone carped "fixing that would take days... look at all the wiki-links that need fixing". Looks like it can't be helped, if something needs to be right it needs to be right. I am putting two cents in on the galaxy title but just to help consensus one way or the other and maybe offering a fig leaf if "Milky Way (galaxy)" offers an expedited technical fix ... not opening a new "conflict". Actualy these points are buried at the top part of "The "Milky Way" and "The Milky Way Galaxy" are two different things" but I will recap here:

Reasons for the name "Milky Way (galaxy)"

  1. . The guideline for naming astronomical objects/Galaxies may not apply here because we only have one object, the Milky Way. The Milky Way Galaxy is not an "object”, it is a concept based on theory about a visible object. (debatable)
  2. . Most objects of this type are actualy not called "XXXXXXX Galaxy" by default (see:Astronomical naming conventions#Names of galaxies), and even the few that are, such as Andromeda Galaxy are still called nebulas in several of my text books. "Andromeda Galaxy" may just another faux cultural name and not a good guide.
  3. . Personal tendency towards "neatness". When searching "Milky Way", seeing Milky Way (galaxy) in the search immediately tells the searcher that this is a different thing from the other "thing" (Milky Way).

That's two cents, sleeves rolled up for any bruit force disambiguation jobs. Halfblue 22:25, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, very much, for wanting to work together. In this case, though, I think that the consensus issues may outweigh the possible technical benefits to using the "Milky Way (galaxy)" title. As I understand it, the delay that would be necessary if we went with "Milky Way Galaxy" won't stop us from working on the articles as they are... I noticed in the history of the current Milky Way Galaxy page that the admins noted that we don't need to delete anything or stop progress on the articles for the time being to go through the Wikipedia:Requested Moves process. It might be best to hold off on fixing the incoming links for the time being, but content-wise we can have a few days to flesh things out, and let people get used to this idea so we can be sure of consensus. I think it's really important to Nondistinguished to stick with the name "Milky Way Galaxy"... important enough to concede that the other article should have the "Milky Way" title with no further disambiguation, anyway. On reflection, I agree. Verifiable reference is where this willingness to compromise comes from, I think, and the verifiable references that do disambiguate between the two topics do consistently use "Milky Way" and "Milky Way Galaxy" as the appropriate terms. In addition, "Milky Way Galaxy" matches the format of other galaxy entries here at Wikipedia, and I think this is a plus as far as standardization goes, for those of us who come at it from the astrophysics side of things. I propose we go with these titles for maximum consensus and maximum concordance with verifiable reference, and work on the articles individually while the Wikipedia:Requested Moves process goes forward. We can hold off on incoming links until the move goes through and/or we have demonstrated widespread consensus with this solution. Does that make sense to you? 67.166.145.20 22:50, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Brief note: I'll be away for several hours, as A) I feel like my loquaciousness/enthusiasm may be inappropriately dominating the natural consensus process and B) me need SLEEP. Just, everyone play nice, 'kay? Pretty please? 67.166.145.20 01:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Halfblue, your textbook still referring to the "Andromeda Nebula" must be ancient! People used to vastly underestimate the distances to galaxies prior to the 1920s - so that they believed them to be nebulae within the Milky Way. They were referred to as spiral nebulae (and presumably elliptical nebulae as well). Now that we can measure distances more accurately, it's known that they are separate galaxies. For naming galaxies, there is a list of ones with traditional names here. Note that Andromeda Galaxy is its name on this page. But what else would you call it? The only acceptable other title would be Messier 31. Andromeda is the name of a constellation, and is not the name of the galaxy. The list referred to is an observer's list - so the Milky Way isn't referred to.
I still think this is the wrong way to go about it, however, because in scientific literature, although both "Milky Way Galaxy" and "Milky Way" are used, if you search titles of scientific papers, and taking the first hundred articles, 83 have "Milky Way" in the title (referring to the galaxy), compared to 3 which have "Milky Way Galaxy". see here. That seems pretty overwhelming that the title Milky Way is in regular use and does refer to the galaxy. Richard B 01:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
This isn't a scientific work per se though. It's an encyclopedia, which should make relatively little use of the kind of esoteric language that generally appears in scientific papers. A search on Google shows much more uses of Milky Way Galaxy as a title for a work of information for the lay person -- as in the Britannica example. Originally I had thought the "Milky Way (galaxy)" title fit more with Wikipedia naming convention, as a way to say "Milky Way is the proper name for many different things, but this article is about the galaxy," but now it seems that the proper name actually shows up as Milky Way Galaxy most of the time, which seems to be a proper name in and of itself. A search for "our galaxy" on Google even shows instances of the word "Galaxy" coming up alone and capitalized -- as in space.com: an article begins, "Is there obvious proof that we are alone in the Galaxy?" which would seem to refer to the word as part of the proper name, rather than simply a description of what the term "Milky Way" refers to ("the Galaxy", as opposed to "a galaxy"). So I'm all for Milky Way Galaxy, because regardless of the compromise it seems to be the most accurate for the purposes of an encyclopedia.
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
03:52, September 13, 2007
Agreed. Additionally, it's not contested that the title Milky Way is in regular use and does refer to the Galaxy. It is also in regular use to refer to the phenomenon in the night sky as distinct from the Galaxy as a whole, and when astronomy texts and resources specifically disambiguate the two concepts, the widespread practice is to refer to the night sky phenomenon simply as "the Milky Way", and to our galaxy as "the Milky Way Galaxy" or "the Galaxy". (As per several references cited above.) Since the sky phenomenon has no additional title besides "Milky Way" while the Galaxy does have a longer, formal title, it seems clear that "Milky Way Galaxy" is the most accurate full title for the article on our galaxy. 67.166.145.20 06:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC) Sleep? What's that?
The "Milky Way" and the "Milky Way Galaxy" are the exact same thing. We don't need a separate article, as we do with Milky Way (mythology), which is an entirely separate subject. Yes, the Milky Way Galaxy is the galaxy in which the Solar System is located. And yes, it is visible from Earth as a nebulous band of light in the sky. There is nothing to disambiguate. —Viriditas | Talk 11:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you... this is the precise statement which seemed intuitively obvious to me prior to this debate, but on careful consideration and after consultation with verifiable reference, has been unexpectedly proven false. I added this important factoid, which I thank Halfblue for bringing to light, to the proposed revisions of the articles; since it's not up now and may be removed if readded, I include it here for the purposes of debate: Technically speaking, the term "Milky Way" alone should refer exclusively to the band of light in the night sky, while the term "Milky Way Galaxy" (or "the Galaxy") is the proper description for our galaxy. In practice, however, the intended meaning of the term is often clear from the context in which it is used, and the term "Milky Way" is routinely used to refer to either topic. This statement is verifiable by the references that have been supplied, and has not been refuted by counterreference. Although this seems weird to those of us whose primary interest is the Milky Way Galaxy, this may be a selection bias based on our primary field of interest. Numerous encyclopedic references disambiguate between the two concepts. One got its name from the other. One is a subset of the other. This fact of terminology, and precedence of disambiguation of terms in multiple encyclopedic contexts, is an important fact that should be included in any Wikipedia entry on either the Milky Way or the Milky Way Galaxy. The galaxy context is much more important to those of us who like the article as it has historically been, but we should not be sloppy and conflate the terms to be the exact same thing and not meaningfully ambiguous as a result of this bias. That would be a value judgment of the relevance of distinction between the terms that is not supported by reference. As such, the previous treatment of the subject does not respect NPOV, and this should be addressed. 67.166.145.20 12:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I have re-integrated this factoid into the current introduction and will begin a section-by-section edit to reflect this formal terminology. As I do so, are there any of those who concede the verifiable nature of this factoid who are willing to help me formally cite it, using resources referenced above? I lack sufficient experience and skill with Wikipedia and the formal citation process to do so on my own, and since there currently exists debate/confusion on this matter, I regard it as vital to cite this factoid thoroughly and properly, from a number of independent sources. I appreciate any assistance. 67.166.145.20 15:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Notable Precedent: I refer editors to the article on the Solar System, which addresses the issue of capitalization of the term in a manner consistent with the style guidelines I propose here. 67.166.145.20 16:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
And to help drive the point home: to equate the Milky Way to the Milky Way Galaxy is precisely equivalent as to equate the Sun to the Solar System. I think we can all agree that the Sun is not the Solar System, despite the fact that it's the part of the Solar System which emits most/all of its light output (minus contributions of human technology). The Sun and Solar System both exist as distinct objects, though on certain scales and from certain vantage points the distinction between them becomes astrophysically irrelevant. It does not follow from this that there are no relevant distinctions between them; merely that in certain contexts the distinctions are minimal. 67.166.145.20 17:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Revised Proposals, scaled down and separated because there are multiple points of contention and organizational matters to be decided (split, move, terminology convention to be used as style guide):

  • The article that has existed at Milky Way should be moved to Milky Way Galaxy, as legitimate ambiguity exists (as supported by reference) and "Milky Way Galaxy" is the full proper name of the astronomical object that is our galaxy.
  • Until it is decided whether the Milky Way itself, the band of light in the night sky, warrants a seperate article, the link to Milky Way should redirect to Milky Way (disambiguation).
  • Regardless of the outcome of either of the previous proposals, the convention of terminology that has been brought to light is an important factoid supported by reference that should be prominently featured in any article on either the topic of the Galaxy or the band of light in the night sky.
  • The structure and language of any Wikipedia article based on either the Galaxy or the band of light should consistently reflect this distinction.

Perhaps these points should be carefully separated out and argued separately. The current matter under discussion is the move of the article that has historically been at this location to a more specific name. There seems to be enough of a consensus by people willing to do the associated gruntwork to formally present this proposal, and those of us who agree with this proposal are currently in the process of deciding the most appropriate name to move it to, should such a move take place. The decision of a name is necessary to begin the process of a proposed move, but this process is consensus-dependent. It may take days or weeks to reach a decision on whether the move will happen, and the process at Wikipedia:Requested Moves can provide adequate safeguards to ensure it does not happen prematurely, without consensus. So to further refine and scale down the specific proposal under discussion:

  • I propose that those of us who wish to move the article should request that it be moved to Milky Way Galaxy.

Are those in favor of a move willing to agree to this name as the destination? Discuss. 67.166.145.20 14:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. Nondistinguished 17:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
That only works if you agree that the galaxy should be moved. It ignores those of use who think that the galaxy should stay here as the primary topic (with a paragraph or two discussing the band of light) and that the extended discussion of the visual effects are what should be moved, per summary style. 169.229.142.187 18:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
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