Talk:Dari/Archive 1

Dari

Dari, also known as Farsi, is apparently similar in syntax to Farsi.
That is confusing.
According to http://www.darilanguageproject.org/2003_summary_of_findings.pdf, Dari the language of the Zoroastrians (not Persian?), as well as the Afghani dialect of Persian. Here too, there appears to be some confusion. At, http://www.persiangulfonline.org/aboutus/letters/SoroushRichardShehabi.htm, Soroush Richard Shehabi claims that Afghani's actually speak Farsi which is really just Persian. I just don't get it

There are in fact two Dari languages. (1) The variety of Persian spoken in Afghanistan, which is mutually intelligible with Farsi. (2) The Northwestern Iranian language spoken by the Zoroastrians of Yazd, Iran (also called Gabri). See: www.darilanguageproject.org.

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It is a common mistake to make. Afghanistan's major language is Pashto. The reason why people think that its farsi is due to the pashtoon's being the poorer ethnicity, and thus not having as much power as the dari speakers.

http://www.sabawoon.com/afghanpedia/Language.Dari.shtm

You can see in that link that dair is spoken by only around 30% of the country, not the 60% shown in this wikipedia entry.

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Dari is only spoken in north afghanistan all together about 30%, but pashto is spken by more then 70% afghans all around afghanistan, because in every part of afghanistan in evrywhere provinces included the main place of DARI speakers KAbul and panjshir still their are more then 40% pashtoon in every province of dari spoken but in other part they all speak pashtoo, even though you wouldn't find a single person in whole city who understand DARI, and its a fact.

Pashtoo is spken by more than 70% afghans in Afghanistan

Incorrect information posted

Regarding the informations written about Dari in this article, I have some points to declare:

- Dari is not a dialect of Farsi (Persian) language of Iran

- Dari was not developed from Pahlawi Sasani as Farsi developped. In fact, Dari developed from Takhari, Partawi (Pahlawi Ashkani) and Soghdi languages

- Dari is a completely different language other than Gabri or Dari of Iran. Gabri or Dari of Iran is a dialect of Farsi, and there are major differences between them i.e. Vocabulary usage, Expressions, Dialect or accent, Writing style, etc. It would be illogical to refer Dari spoken in Afghanistan to the Dari/ Gabri of Iran.

- Dari itself has its own dialects i.e. Kabuli, Herawi/Herati, Takhari and Badakhshi.

- Dari was not distinguished because of the political means of the Pashtoon Government in Afghanistan. In fact, the researches taken out by great Tajik Afghan writers, historians, scholars and researchers proved that Dari developped from Takhari, Partawi and Soghdi languages.

In order to support my statements, here I cite some pieces of texts of old Farsi-Dari literature books:

- Some Manuscript writings on a stone found in one of the Kushanian Temples in Baghlan (a city in Afghanistan) in 1951 show that Dari developped from Takhari language. There are almost 160 words in 25 lines of Takhari language written in the Greek transcripts. In these manuscripts which are more than 1800 years old, one can clearly see the familiarities of Dari and Takhari languages. So it completely shows that Dari was NOT developped from Pahlawi Sasani as Farsi did.

- Mohammad Taqi Bahar, the great poet and writer of Iran, writes in his book "Sabk-Shunasi", vol.1: “...some people say that Dari is a developed dialect of Sughdi language, that the people of Bukhara, Samarqand and regions of Jaihun (Amu) river used to communicate in it for a long time. And some people, relying on the statements of Abdullah ibn-Muqaffa say that Dari was the language of cities and courts, and it was the softest and the most fluent language of the Sasanid period, and it contained mostly the eastern words, especially Balkhi words.” He then continues and gives his own point of view: “As after the coming of Islam, the people of Bukhara and Samarqand wrote many books in Dari, and the poets of Khorasan (Afghanistan) narrated poems in this language, so Dari came step by step from Khorasan to Iran. I can say as a conclusion that Dari is the language of Balkh and Bukhara.”

- Abdullah ibn Muqaffa writes in his book “Al-Fehrest” (378 JC) that: “Pahlawi (the old Farsi) refers to Pahla, the language of Five cities: Esfahan, Ray, Hamadan, Mah Nawand and Azerbaijan. But Dari was the language of citizens (people of cities) and people in the kings’ courts used to speak in Dari. It is the language of Khorasan people and the East, mostly that of the people of Balkh (a city in the north of Afghanistan). While Farsi was the language of religious people, by which the people of Pars (Iran) communicated.”

I suggest that one should not rely only on the researches of recent Iranian writers. He/she should study the works and researches of Afghan Historians and Writers as well, so that he could well analyze a point. I can provide further Bibliography and Sources, if one was interested.

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All major sources support the fact that Afghanistan's "Dari" is the same as Iran's "Farsi". The developement of the Iranian languages is well-researched and well-documented. Today's "Dari" in Afghanistan is only the Eastern dialect of Farsi and has Western-Iranian origins (even though the dialect itself emerged in Eastern Iran). I do not know what language "Takhari" is, but if you are talking about Tocharian language, the language was not even Iranic and its recostruction is difficult (in other words: we do not know much about that language). The Sogdian language was an Eastern-Iranian language and totally different from "Dari" in grammar and vocabulary, although some Sogdian words have survived in modern Persian. The only living offspring of Sogdian is the Yaghnobi language - an Eastern-Iranian language, much closer to Pashto than to "Dari".

Claiming that "Afghanistan's Dari developed out of Sogdian and not of Persian" is like claiming that "English developed out of Italic and not of Germanic languages" ... however, it is a well-researched fact that English is a Germanic language, although there are more Latin words in modern English than Germanic ones.

And regarding Abdullah ibn Muqaffa: he was no language-expert, but simply a historian. He neither differenciates between dialects nor between languages. While he considers "Dari, Pahlavi, and Farsi" different languages (although even back then these dialects were part of the same language), he counts Semetic Assyrian ("Khuzi") among the "Iranian languages" ... from this, it's clear that - as a historian - Abdullah ibn Muqaffa simply recorded the common names of those languages and dialects without doing his own research. Other writers, such as Biruni or Tabari, did not differenciate between "Dari" and "Farsi" ...

Tājik 21:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Khoob! Pesh e jaananeh e maa kishmish o pumbdaaneh yakeist! What language did Amir Khusrau of Delhi use whose poetry took Iran, Turkey and Mawrannahar by storm in the 13th century? Dari or Parsi? Besides what does Hafiz Shirazi refer to in his line "Taa khwajeh mei khurad beghazalha e pahlavi"? Did Hafiz write in a different language sitting in Ruknaabad, Shiraz thousands of miles away from Delhi where Khusrau had written his poetry? 59.176.37.39 06:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)Lutfullah

"Today's "Dari" in Afghanistan is only the Eastern dialect of Farsi" Not true. The official language of Tajikistan, Tajik, is also Eastern Farsi, and much better documented than the varieties in Afghanistan. Jakob37 04:07, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Comments on the new Article posted

The new article posted about the Dari language contains lots of contradictions and lots of incorrect information. It seems to me that the writer is backed by his personal views of todays political situations between Afghanistan and Iran.

Here are my comments:

1. In the section of History, the 2nd paragraph, the author says that there's no difference between Aryan, Iranian and Persian. However, Persian is a mixed Elam-Aryan civilisation, while Aryan and Iranian can be considered the same. Iran, the current country, was always known as Persia or Fârs. It was in 1935 that Reza Shah Pahlawi changed the name of Persia to Iran, by the support of Nazi regime in Germany. Ariana or Aryana is general name used for all the regions of Transoxiana (Tajikistan, Uzbekistan), Persia (Iran), Khorasan (Afghanistan) and parts of Pakistan (northern parts of Sindh river). By changing the name of Persia to Iran, it doesn't make it to become the same Great and Ancient Ariana, however today's Iran is part of the Great Ariana, as Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are parts of Ariana. No matter the word "Iran" was initially used during the Sassanids.

2. In the section of History, 3rd paragraph (Persian originated in Persis) and 5th paragraph (Dari, a spoken language of Parthia..... Dari spread to the east and Transoxiana regions). This is the bigest error and incorrect information posted.

In fact, the Persian language (if we consider it both as Farsi and Dari) originated and developed in Transoxiana (north of Oxus river) and Khorasan (the old Afghanistan regions), and then emerged to the west, to Persia (Iran) during or just before the Sasanids. And during the ruling of Parthians, it was Aramaic,Pahlavi and Parthi/Parti languages common in Persia, NOT Dari. Here are the sources from both Iranian and Afghan historians and researchers:

- “The language of Dari has almost a two thousand-year-old history. It came into being in Khorasan before the Islamic period. It was at first the native language of Khorasanis (people of Khorasan) and then extended to the west (modern Iran). ” History of Afghanistan’s Literature, Moh. Haidar Zhobl, Maiwand Publications, 1379 Peshawar (p.22)

- “Dari emerged for the first time in the East (Khorasan), while at that time the language of Persians (Iranians) was Pahlawi. At that period in Iran, all religious and scientific works were written in Pahlawi, even the poems that were narrated in Iran, Hamadan, Azerbaijan and Tabaristan (today Mazandaran) were in Pahlawi and Tabari languages. However, all old Farsi poems which were narrated in Khorasan by Hanzala Badgheesi, Mohammad Sakazi and Busam-gurd Khareji were written in fluent Dari language.” Ariana Encyclopaedia (Vol.5), Encyclopaedia Association of Afghanistan, 1348 Kabul (p.400)

- “Until the fourth Hijri century (9th BCE), Dari was associated uniquely to Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana and it was not common in Iran, even a single poem or book was not found to be written in Dari in Iran.” [History of Afghanistan’s Literature, Moh. Haidar Zhobl, Maiwand Publications, 1379 Peshawar (p.24)] “…and after the 5th Hijri century, Dari extended to the Persian territories.” [“Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana; the region of Dari’s emergence”, Mr. Kawyani, Khawaran.com website]

- Dr. Said Nafisi, professor in the University of Tehran, writes: “According to some very clear proofs, it is evident that Dari came into being in Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana, and then extended to the Iranian regions, which were not its local territories.” (Reporting from: “Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana; the region of Dari’s emergence”, Mr. Kawyani, Khawaran.com website)

- According to Prof. Shahrestani, Dari was formed during the rule of Behman Ibn-e Espandyar, one of the Kavi (Persian: Kayani) Kings in Balkh, who ruled probably before the Common Era. In several old books, it is mentioned that “At the period of Behman’s ruling, son of Espandyar, people came from different regions to his court and did not understand each others’ languages. Therefore, he ordered the scholars to make a fluent Farsi language, and named it Dari.”

- Mohammad Taqi Bahar, famous Iranian Poet, writes in his book Sabk Shunasi (Vol.1): “Some people say that Dari is the same old Persian, others say that Dari is a dialect of the Soghdi language common in the north of Amu Darya and Samarqand. While others relying on the statements of Abdullah ibn-e Muqaffa believe that Dari was the language of the Capital [city]. It was the most fluent language of the Sassanid period and contained a large number of Eastern words, especially those of Balkh.” He then continues and admits that: “As the people of Samarqand and Bukhara (regions in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) wrote text and poetry books in Dari after Islam and the poets of Khorasan (Afghanistan) also narrated their poems in this language, Dari came step by step from Khorasan to Iran. I can say as a conclusion that Dari is the language of the people of Bukhara and Balkh.”

- Mr. Jalal Matini, chief editor of the magazine "Iran-Shenasi" and former director of Mashad's University in Iran, writes: "The original teritory of Persian is Transoxiana..... Persian was the language of Transoxiana (Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) and Khorasan (the old Afghanistan) in the 3rd and 4th Hijri centuries. It then emerged to Iran and Indian subcontenent during 8 and 9 centuries." (Iranshenasi Magazine, Number 2, Year 2002, Iranshenasi.net)

So according to all Iranian and Afghan scholars, Persian (Farsi or Dari) came into existence in Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana almost 2000 years ago and then migrated to the west, to Persia.

3. In the section of History, 4th paragaraph, a great error in reporting the statements of Abdullah ibn Muqaffa. According to this article, Abdullah ibn-Muqaffa pronounced Dari as the main language of Fahla, which is reported totally incorrect. It was Pahlavi the language of Pahla, not Dari.

Here's the statements of Abdullah ibn Muqaffa in his book Al-Fehrest: “Pahlawi (old Farsi) refers to Pahla, which is the name of five cities: Esfahan, Ray, Hamadan, Mah Nawand and Azerbaijan. But Dari is the language of citizens and that of Court (King’s court). It is one of the languages of Khorasan (the old Afghanistan) and eastern regions; the language style of Balkh (city in northern Afghanistan) has more influence on it. While Parsi (Farsi) is the language of Zoroastrian religious leaders, and the people of Persia (Iran) spoke in this language.” Here's the source: "History of the Philosophical sciences of Iran" (tarikh wa uloom-e falsafa-e irani), Abdul Rafi Haqiqat, Komash Publications, 1372 Tehran, page 39

There are other incorrect information posted about Arabic's influence on Dari and Farsi, as well as about the origin of the Dari language. For a detailed information, please CHECK THIS

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It has been the third time that the External Link which I add to the main page of the article is being removed by the user named User:Tajik. He wrote in the comments that the link did not work, however there is neither any problem with the link, nor any violation with the copyright. The main article posted about Dari contains lots of incorrect and inaccurate information, so I did not try to modify it. However, I provided that link under the External Links area. It would be better to defend his point of views in here, in discussion, instead of removing the link. Thank you

The main article is based on 1st hand information from authoritative sources, such as Encyclopaedia of Islam or Encyclopaedia Iranica. You are pushing for a wrong pseudo-scientific version which has no support and is based on pure assumptions. You use wrong quotations and base most of your thesis on works written by known pseudo-scientists and people who openly declare their hate against Iran, Persians, and so on.

Here is the article of the Iranica - an authroitative source written by a real expert and based on historical documents. Your "blog" is NOT a scientific page and has no place in here. Please stop messing up the article or I will report you to admins. Tājik 15:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest that in the first step the errors that are present in the current article should or even must be corrected. I pointed out the main and principle errors in this discussion [Dari developed in Persia and emerged to the east to Khorasan and Transoxiana; Dari was spoken during the Parthians; Dari was the language of Fahla... I wonder how do you call it an authentic information] and there is no doubt that the article is written in favour of personal interests for Iran.

Contradiction

The main article has become much more accurate. However, there exists only one major contradition which needs to be modified. Here, I am pointing out that point:

1. First let me copy the Persian translated text of Ibn-Muqaffa: پهلوی منسوب است به پهله که نام پنچ شهر است: اصفهان، ری، همدان، ماه نهاوند و آذربایجان. و اما دری زبان شهر نشینان بود و درباریان با آن سخن می گفتند و منسوب به دربار پادشاهی است و از میان زبان های اهل خراسان و مشرق، زبان مردم بلخ در آن بیشتر بود. اما پارسی، زبان مؤیدان (روحانیون زردتشتی) بود که در پارس مردم به آن دین معتقد بودند

So, Pahlavi the language of Pahla (Medes), Dari the language of Court and the Citizens of Khorasan (eastern Persia), and Parsi the language of Mobidan (Zoroastrian religious) in Persia. But in the article it has been written: "In everyday conversation Dari was used and Parsi was the written and scholarly language"......"The spoken language of Dari however remained intact." I think this point is in contradicion both with the statements of Muqaffa and with the contents of the main article i.e. "Dari is the language of the Sassanids Court and the official Zoroastrian priesthood language."......"Dari emerged as the spoken language of Persian courts of Sassanids." But in fact:

• Dari was the official language of Sassanids Court
• Dari was the language (spoken and official) of Eastern Persia (Khorasan) i.e. Balkh, according to Ibn Muqaffa (Source Encyclopedia Iranica G. LINK)
• Parsi the language (spoken and official) of Mobidan or Zoroastrian leaders
• Dari was the spoken language ONLY in the eastern Persia (Khorasan) and NOT all over Persia, because it was Parsi the spoken and official language of Zoroastrians in Persia
• Parsi was NOT the official language of the Sassanid Court (it was Dari, as a general agreement and according to many sources) but only the official language of Zoroastrians.

2. Not only Parsi/Farsi got affected by Arabic, but Dari did either. Both Farsi and Dari contain equal combination of Arabic vocabulary. The reason that Dari reserved its pure and original language style and structure, is that in the recent times Dari speaking people (Khorasanis) did not have any direct interaction with other foreign languages, which was because of the Political situations in Afghanistan. (Although the language of Tajikistan severly got affected) As for Farsi, it was influenced by European languages, mainly by French, especially after the Qajar Dyanasty and mostly remarkably during the Pahlavi dynasty. And in the recent years, Dari is suffering from an important impression of Foreing languages. So by saying "Arabic slowly influence Farsi and Dari remained intact" is incorrect according to me.

What is your opinion Tājik? This (the 1st point) is the only major contradiction, according to me. I just wanted to make a confirmation and if you are agree, I will make some modifications (not any major modification) and then you can verify. And if you are not agree, then what are the sources that you are relying on? Ariana310 12:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Origin of the term

A user has inserted the claim that some scholars (?) claim that Dari' is derives from Darra and that it developed out of Sogdian, Tocharian, and Parthian?!

Are there ANY reliable sources for the claim?!

Except for the first part of the claim (Darra --> Dari), all other parts are totally illogical and NO serious scholars would ever claim such a nonsense.

Sogdian did have small influences on Persian vocabulary, but deffinitly not on its grammar or structure. Today, Yaghnobi is the ONLY language belived to be a descendant of Sogdian. The Tocharian language was neither an Iranian nor an Indo-Iranian language. It was a totally different, mostly unknown branch of the Indo-European languages and had NO influence on Persian.

"Parthian" - meaning the original language of the early Parthians - was a distinct East-Iranian dialect. The Parthian kings of Persia spoke a WESTERN-Iranian dialect, closely related to Persian. Linking the Parthian language to Tocharian and Sogdian, and claiming that these 3 gave birth to modern Khorasanian dialects of Persian is pure nonsense.

Tājik 01:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Probably an inaccurate word was used (developed from), it must be used "got influenced". As you are already agree, Soghdi had an important influence on Dari (The case of Yaghnoobi dialect is not the main point) Takhari or Tocharian language spoken during the period of Kushans, did also influence the eastern dialects of Persian language: Dari. Many inscriptions found in Kushan Temples in Northern Afghanistan written in Takhari language (Western Tocharian, Class B language) with Greek script are the evidences which support this opinion. Since I cannot provide any non-Afghan reliable source on this matter, I will remove this point.

It is already known that Persian language (both Dari and Farsi) developed from the Pahlavi language (Old Persian). According to the Iranian scholars, Pahlavi has been divided into two dialects: pahlavi-e ashkani and pahlavi-e sassani. Pahlavi being already developed from Parthian language, is again divided by scholars into those two dialects, which always creates a misconception. Pahlavi-e ashkani is the same Parthian language (also known as Parti or Parsawi), and Pahlavi-e sassani was the newer dialect which developed from Parthian language. According to many trustable sources, Parthian language is an Avestan language, which developed from Bactrian languages. It first developed in Central Asia and then migrated to Persia or Parthia by the Parthian people. So it was stated in the text, that Dari developed from Parti (Ashkanian Pahlavi) which is an undisputable fact. Even in the wikipedia article about Parthian language, it has been written that: This feature made Parthian retain many archaic Eastern Iranian features. This retention was probably due to the fact that the Parthian dynasty was founded by the Parni tribe. The tribe had migrated from the steppes of Central Asia into Parthia. The Parni or Parnae originally were speakers of an Northeastern Iranian language closely related with other languages of the area such as Scythian, Sogdian and Bactrian. The study of the Indo-Iranian tribes reveal that it was not uncommon for the tribes to adopt the local language, beliefs and customs of the peoples among whom they had settled whether through migration or conquest. This was especially true of the nomadic steppe tribes who formed the core of the Indo-Iranian world. A good example of this phenomenon in the words of University of London Professor Mary Boyce were "the Parni, merging themselves with the Parthians." (i:e the peoples already present in the province of Parthia). Ariana310 11:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

These are unsourced claims, but no facts. First of all, the Tocharian language was not the language of the Kushans, but Bactrian. At that time, Persian was not used in that region, and the "house-language" of the Kushan kings had no influences on the language of the Sassanids.

The text you have copied in no means supports your claim. It onyl says that the Parthains once moved from Central Asia to Pars and Mesopotamia. This is a well known fact. But what has this to do with the language?! The influence was vice versa: the Persians and Medians influenced the Parthians, and after a few decades, they adopted the Western-Iranian dialects, one of them being the so-called Parthian language.

Do you have any reliable (=scholarly) sources for your claims?!

Tājik 16:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's the [http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Languages/dari.htm article of CAIS (The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies)]. Let me cite the exact text: Middle Dari was spoken from 3rd century to 9th and is related to several other Central Asian tongues such as Sogdian, Chrosmian and also Parthian languages. Parthian was the language of the Parthian Empire (Arsacid). Parthian, though left some influences on middle Dari, declined when the Sassanian power expanded. It clearly indicates that Dari was influenced by Soghdian and Parthian languages, which justifies my two points.

I already stated that Parti (pahlavi-e ashkani) being developed from Bactrian and Soghdian languages, made a grand influence on Dari as it developed in Central Asia and then migrated to Persia or Parthia by the Parthian people. If you deny that Dari did not develop from "Pahlavi-e Ashkani", then what your claims are about the development and creation of Dari language. Dari was not created as a pure independant language by a group of people who already spoke other language. The emergence of Dari in Khorasan and Transoxiana is a clear fact, so there's no doubt that Bactrian languages, Soghdian and Pahlavi (mainly pahlavi-e ashkani or parti) were the referenced languages for it. Ariana310 05:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's another detailed article about the Parthian (Parti) and Pahlavi languages, focusing on the history of Persian language (Farsi-e Dari). In this article, you will also find some sources from Western and European Scholars about how Parthian language influenced Dari and Farsi. CLICK HERE Ariana310 16:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Your conclusion is totally wrong. Because the Parthian language did not develope in Bactria, as you claim. The Parthians adopted that language when they moved westward to Persis and Media. The Parthian language was, like Dari, a Western Iranian language - Sogdian and Bactrian were East Iranian dialects.

The entire Persian language, of which literary Dari was a varity, was brought to Khorasan by the Persians - before and after Islam. It was the literary standard that was later exported from Khorasan to the West by the Samanids and Seljuqs. The language itself did not develope in the West.

Let me give you an example: the English language developed in what we now call "England", having more recent ancestors in Central Europe (modern northern Germany). The English language was brought to America by the English settlers. Today, the American English varity has significant influence on all other languages, including the related Germanic languages. But this does not mean that the English language itself developed in America, only because - nowadays - America is the cultural center of the English language.

1200 years ago Khorasan was the "cultural center" of the Persian language. This language was known as the "Dari" language, the "language of kings". And as a "language of kings" it was exported from Khorasan to all parts of the ISlamic world. But the ORIGIN of the language was - and that's fact - the southwestern region of ancient Persia, modern Fars in Iran.

Tājik 18:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

You did not give any response based on historical facts with sources, instead you give me an example. You could not refuse my statements by a solid source. You cannot justify your claim by saying that Bactrian and Sogdian are eastern Iranian dialects and Parthian is a western dialect. In the [http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Languages/dari.htm article of CAIS (The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies)] it is clearly stated: Parthian is related to several other Central Asian tongues such as Sogdian So your claim is completely incorrect and baseless. And then furthermore, it says: Parthian, though left some influences on middle Dari, declined when the Sassanian power expanded. In addition, Dari was influenced by Parthian language. In [Iranica] it has been mentioned: Dar^ was contrasted to Pahlavi, sometimes when the latter term designated literary Middle Persian, and sometimes when it referred to Medo-Parthian dialects SO YOUR CLAIM IS PROVED COMPLETELY INCORRECT AND BASELESS.

Dari did NOT develop in the south western regions of Greater Iran or Persia. Please show me any source or reference? In fact, Dari's main territory from where it developed is Khorasan and Transoxiana, especially the Bactrian regions. Here I am writing the original Persian texts of Iranian scholars:"

• زبان فارسی دری اصلاً لهـجـه اهالی ماوراءالنهـر، سمرقنـد و بخـارا است که در اين جای ها تاجيـکـان زنـدگی می کـنند(تاجیکان در مسیر تاریخ، محمد تقی بهار، گردآورنده ميرزا شکور زاده، انتشارات بين المللی الهدی،1372، صفحه 45)
• زادگاه زبان و ادب فارسي خراسان و ماوراء النهر (فرارود) است. زبان فارسي زبان مردم خراسان و ماوراء النهـر در قرن سوم و چهـارم هجـري در طي هشت نـه قرن به سراسر ايران و سرزميـن هاي غـير ايراني، آناتولي، شبه قاره هـند، و بالکان و چـين، راه يافت (Dr.Jalal, Director of Iranshenasi No.2 Year 2002 (but this number is not available online)

Even if you cannot provide any source to support your claim (Dari was created in the southwestern Iran), at least just provide me the name of a single work which was written in "Persian (Farsi-Dari)" in Western regions of Persia (West of Khorasan) before the 7th century. It is very strange that according to you, Dari was created in the western regions of Persia, but no single Persian work was written in that region before the 7th century. In fact, all the Persian works until the 10th century were whether in Transoxiana (Bukhara, Samarqand, Merv), Khorasan (Balkh, Seestan) or Khwarazm. REMEMBER I ASKED FOR PERSIAN WORKS, NOT FROM MIDDLE PERSIAN OR OLD PERSIAN (Pahlavi or Parthian). Ariana310 20:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

If you could not refuse by any trustable source the influence of Parthian language on Dari (of course you can't, because I gave you reference to Iranica and CAIS (The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies)) and the creation of Dari in Khorasan and Transoxiana, I will remove the "accuracy tag" from the History Section. Ariana310 20:12, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

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Create new page for the debate?

This article is far too complex and confusing. The entire history section needs to be rewritten for a much more general audience, and without the very lengthy and unencyclopedic discourse on the academic debate over the relative origins of Dari and Farsi.

May I suggest that, if this material is of great interest, it be moved to a page called something like "Controversy over the origins of Dari and Farsi", and linked to from this page? It would be far less offputting to the general user, but still available to those who need it. -- TinaSparkle 11:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

If you mean the debate in this Discussion page, so it is not really so long. Normally the discussion pages get too long. And if there would me more users in the discussion, other than me and User:Tajik, so of course it would be useful to create such a page.

But if you mean the main article in the wikipedia page about Dari, so I would prefer to conserve the contents of the article in the same page, and those who have enough authentic information with reliable sources can edit the article. The main article was very much complicated and contained several contradictions. I edited it up a while ago, and it seems clear (in presentation) so far. Ariana310 17:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

article lacks balance

There is an awful lot of information in this article --- cultural, historical --- which may belong somewhere, but not here. I am a speaker of this kind of Persian, although my usage is admittedly rusty, and there are significant differences between this dialect and the better known type based on the speech of Tehran, differences in vocabulary usage, and also in pronunciation. The literary-style pronunciation of Kabuli Dari is perhaps the most conservative of all dialects of Farsi, yet there are no details here at all about that, nor about the differences and similarities to Tajik up to the north. The whole tone of this article is political, when it should be linguistic. Is politics really so much more exciting than linguistics? Jakob37 04:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

• so-called Persian language is not related to the Persian Tribe who established the Persian Empire by the aid of some other tribes,

particularly Medians,eventually demolished by Alexander the Great. And also the Geographical origion of this language is not the residence area of Persians, situated in the South of "Iran" and locally named "FARS". The geographical origion of this language is the "Central Asia". That is why all pioneer poets of this language are from this area, mainly situated in Afghanistan, Uzbakistan and Tajikistan. The original speakers of this language,that speak it more perfectly than "Iranians", are called TAJIK. Therefore, "Persian" or "Farsi" is a wrong name for this language.

The Persian language itself developed in south-western Iran - there is no doubt about that. The grammatical structure, the close relationship to other southwestern languages, such as Kurdish, Baluch, or Luri, prove this fact. Although Afghanistan's Persian is geographically much closer to Pashto, the language itself is - linguistically and phonetically - much closer to Anatolian Kurdish.

As for the "modern developement": the modern version of the Persian language developed in Central Asia, that's true. But this does not make the language "Central Asian". An example: modern American English developed in America, but it is still a dialect of the European English language, and belongs to the Germanic languages. Tājik 15:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The researches of scholars, both Iranian and non-Iranians (Tajiks and Afghans), show that the Persian language (Farsi-Dari) developed in Central Asia (Transoxiana and Bactria) and then expanded towards the western regions. There's NO authentic source from old Persian literature books which support your claim (Persian developed in south-western Iran). If you say yes, then please show a single source from old Persian books for your claim. Ariana310 15:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Which sources?! And Which notable scholars?! There is not a single reliable source claiming that the Persian language developed in Central Asia. That would be against all the rules and laws of comperative linguistics. From Encyclopaedia Britannica:

• "... member of the Iranian branch of the Indo-Iranian language family; it is the official language of Iran. It is most closely related to Middle and Old Persian, former languages of the region of Fars (“Persia”) in southwestern Iran. Modern Persian is thus called Farsi by native speakers. ..." [1]

I also suggest: "Linguistic affinity between Old Persian (a Southwest Iranian language) and the Northeast-Iranian Sogdian language" by Dr. Ehsan Yarshater (1987)

Tājik 17:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you go through the research articles published in IranShenasi, the research article of Dr. Jalal Matini, in No. 2, Year 2002. The articles of Dr. Said Nafisi, professor in the University of Tehran. According to their researches, New Persian (i.e. Farsi-Dari) originated in Northeastern Iran (i.e. Bactria).

According to Prof. Shahrestani, Persian was formed during the rule of Behman Ibn-e Espandyar, one of the Kavi (Persian: Kayani) Kings in Balkh, who ruled probably before the Common Era. In several old books, it is mentioned that “At the period of Behman’s ruling, son of Espandyar, people came from different regions to his court and did not understand each others’ languages. Therefore, he ordered the scholars to make a fluent Farsi language, and named it Dari.” In addition, please refer to Mohammad Taqi Bahar's book, Sabk-Shenasi. Ariana310 21:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I read these articles, and all of the articles talk about New Persian, not about the Persian language in general. New Persian is just one of 3 historical stages of the Persian languages. It developed out of Middle Persian (also known as Pahlavi), which itself developed out of Old Persian. This Old Persian language is the root of the modern Persian language, and that language developed in southwestern Iran (modern province Fars) 2500-2800 years ago.

It's not a big secret that the modern Persian language developed in Central Asia and then spread to the entire Iranian plateau - mostly due to Persianate Seljuq victories. But the New Persian language is not the root of the Persian language. The Persian language has its origins in "Old Persian". All other stages - Middle Persian & New Persian - are based on that Old Persian language. All other theories are not supported by mainstream scholars. Tājik 23:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

"Opinions about Dari's emergence" section is POV

I added the "accuracy is disputed" tag to the section. It is filled with either non-specialist or pseudo-scientific POV. Besides that, it uses wrong interpretations of historical sources, and it was even using a fake source! There are no references to modern scholars, and no references to Western scholars.

Even the claim that "Dari" has ANY relationship to Tokharian (which was not even an Iranian language and was much closer to the Germanic languages than to Indo-Iranian languages) is totally absurd and against ANY laws of comperative linguistics.

This section totally contradicts the articles "Dari" and "Languages of Afghanistan" in Encyclopaedia Iranica.

Tājik 18:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Would you please tell me what a pseudo-scientific POV is !!! All the points mentioned in that section, are the opinions of Iranian and Afghan scholars. There's nothing personal opinion of myself. All the points mentioned are all sourced, except the one which refers to the Tokharian language.

Here's the source for the point that Dari was influenced by Tokharian language. Regarding the Inscriptions of Surkh Kotal Baghlan, Dr. Mohammad Hussain Yameen says:

کتیبه سرخ کوتل بغلان که در عصر اخلاف کنیشکا در سده دوم میلادی (۱۶٠ م) نوشته شده است همچنان واژه هایی
دران آمده که شکل متحول زبان پارتی و نزدیک به زبان پارسی دری را مینماید. و از سوی دیگر ریشه واژه ها
به اوستا میرسند؛ مثلاً   مه = بزرگ , لیز  = دژ , بگ لنگ = بغلان, شا = شاه, نامه برگ = نامور , کرد = کردن , ساختن ...
      پس از مطالعه دقیق کتیبه, مستشرقان اروپایی از قبیل هیننگ, ماریک, بنونست زبان کتیبه را باختری
نامیدند. (۳۸)
      بقول ارانسکی بررسیهای مقدماتی نشان میدهد که زبان کتیبه یکی از زبانهای ایرانی شرقی بوده از سویی
مشابهت به زبان سغدی, خوارزمی و پارتی دارد. (٣۹)
      معین گفته: زبان کوشانی یا بلخی عبارت است از زبان کتیبه سرخ کوتل بغلان, رباطک سمنگان و سنگ نبشته
های اروزگان ؛ زبان این کتیبه ها که, به نامهای مختلف (باختری, بلخی تخاری, کوشانی) یاد شده با ورود فرهنگ
اسلامی و ترویج خط عربی پارسی دری نامیده شد. (۴۰)

Here's the LINK. I did not add this source, because I wanted to find the name of the book, date of publication and the publisher's name.

Here are the list of the scholars names which are mentioned in the article:

• Mohammad Taqi Bahar - Iranian - sourced
• Dr. Zabihullah Safa, reporting from Burhan Qate' - Iranian - sourced
• Prof. Sharestani, reporting from Burhan Qate' - Afghan - sourced
• Abdullah ibn Muqaffa, reported by Abdul Rafi Haqiqat, Iranian - sourced

I tried my best to avoid mentioning the statements of Afghan historians or scholars, so that the article be neutral. And now tell me exactly which point is a POV? They're all sourced. The only point is about the influence of Tocharian and Soghdi languages on Dari, and I will find a reliable source for that. So what is the accuracy tag for? For only one point? There's only one point and there's ONLY you who is not agree.

None of the contents of this article contradict those of Iranica.Ariana310 18:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

It does not matter WHO claims that Dari has ANY closer relationship to Tokharian. What matters is that the person is WRONG. Tokharian was a TOTALLY DIFFERENT language-family, and the difference between the Iranian languages and Tokharian was bigger than between Greek and Tokharian. There is absolutely NO WAY that "Dari" developed out of that language. It is a proven and well-established FACT that "Dari" is just another name for the Persian language, and that it is NO different from what is known as "Farsi". Tājik 20:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, fine. I just re-wrote the disputed part. Since, the section is named as "Opinions about Dari's emergence", I suggest this point be kept in. All what is mentioned in that section are the different opinions of scholars, whether they're true or not. I re-wrote that part, and I will remove the accuracy tag. Because I clearly stated that Afghan scholars claim and, in addition, I made that subsection in History (Opinions about Dari's emergence) just because they're all the opinions and cannot be necessarily a fact.

By the way, when I tell you that there's ONLY you denying that, don't please go on and *ask other users to have a look at this*. Thanks -Ariana310 07:57, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Jalal Matini's Quote

User:Jahangard asked me for the exact Persian quote of Jalal Matini. Here's the text:

زادگاه زبان و ادب فارسي خراسان و ماوراء النهر (فرارود) است.

A few lines later he says:

زبان فارسي، زبان مردم خراسان و ماوراء النهـر در قرن سوم و چهـارم هجـري، در طي هشت نـه قرن به سراسر ايران و سرزميـن هاي غـير ايراني، آناتولي، شبه قاره هـند، و بالکان و چـين، راه يافت.

He clearly says that the original region of Persian language (of course, he means New Persian or Farsi, and not Middle Persian or Pahlavi) is Khorasan and Fararod (Transoxiana).Ariana310 10:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I modified that part according to these two sentences. Jahangard 11:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

  * so-called Persian language is not related to the Persian Tribe who established the Persian Empire by the
aid of some other tribes, eventually demolished by Alexander the Great. And also the Geographical origion of
this language is not the residence area of Persians,situated in the South of "Iran" and locally named "FARS".
The geographical origion of this language is the "Central Asia". That is why all pioneer poets of this
language are from this area, mainly situated in Afghanistan, Uzbakistan and Tajikistan. 
he original speakers of this language,that speak it more perfectly than "Iranians", are called
 TAJIK. Therefore, "Persian" or "Farsi" is a wrong name for this language.

 * Dari, Pahlavi and Farsi according to historical references were in existance at the same time. Therefore
   they are different languages and none of them is derived from the other. So naming "Pahlavi" as "old Farsi"
   is not correct.

Dari, Darius the Great?

Does the origin of the word Dari have anything to do with Darius the Great, who ruled over the area now known Iran and Afghanistan at one point? Duinemerwen 22:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. It does not have anything with it at all. Only there's an opinion that Dari might have been derived from the word Daric, the royal coins during the [[Achaemenid] period in Afghanistan, but that's only an opinion. Probably there might be any link between "Daric" and "Darius", but there's no solid proof for that.Ariana310 08:14, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Afghan Dari NOT Farsi

I would like to make it very clear that Dari is the original Language and not farsi. Because of afghanistans situation in the world it does not have the power to change the history books .There is for a fact Errors and lots of them here in this article and anything taht has afghanistan in it as nothing is exactly clear. Both iranians, Americans, and jews write the history books. Of course they will be biase towards others. I would also like to stress that Dari is not a PERSIAN Language that is a Iranian, britsh imposed in the history books and afghanistan was not EAstern Persia that is a lie also. Persia was part of Aryana. We have not seen Any history books by our own afghans, so do not let foreigners do the research for us or believe there view because no one knows afghan better than they know themselves. Pashtun786 02:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)pashtun786

• See Ethnologue report for Afghanistan. Dari is another name for Eastern Farsi. Because of its preservation of archaic elements, when formally spoken, it is closer to literary "court" Persian than is the Western Farsi spoken in Teheran. When spoken informally and in rural areas it blends into the Tajik spoken to the north of Afghanistan. There are a number of dialects, including Kabul. In addition to the 5.8 million speakers in Afghanistan, there are approximately 2 million speakers outside of Afghanistan, primarily in Iran and Pakistan. --Bejnar 04:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Dari was a term introduced during Zahir's rule. We Persian Speakers have always called our language farsi not Dari. Dari is a term used for the persian language not only Afghanistan's dialect. most persian speakers speak dialects different than Kabuli. --Anoshirawan 04:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The people of Afghanistan who speak Dari language chose to give it this name to show that they are not Farsiwans, which is a term used to describe Shia Farsi speakers. Dari speakers are Sunni, Farsi speakers are Shias. If you call Farsiwan (Farsi speaker) to anyone in Kabul, they will knock you out with a punch.--Dilbar Jan 10:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Dari was introduced in the 1960s by the Pro Pashtun Zahir khan government to bring differences between Persian speakers in iran and Afghanistan. Dari is a synonymous term for Persian and it is not a Dialect. Afghanistanis in Afghanistan always used farsi and they still use farsi for their language and it is only in the government which they use dari and till today Pashtuns in the south use "farsiwan" for all Persian speakers not only Shias.--Anoshirawan 22:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan (talk • contribs)

Please take care to distinguish between the name and the language. Dari may have become the official label for Eastern Farsi until the 1960s. That has nothing to do with the fact that the name Dari has been in use unofficially for, according to the citations, hundreds of years. Now there does seem to be a good question about what Dari referred to before 1960. Was it just court Persian, or did it also refers to Eastern Farsi. Second, check the linguistic sources. They indicate that there are differences between Western Farsi and Eastern Farsi, and that the Western variety has preserved more of the archaic forms of court Persian. Certainly people did not just start speaking Eastern Farsi as their native tongue in the 1960s. --Bejnar 22:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I advice you to Read articles written by Persian Professors and Persian researchers. There is no eastern Persian or western persian. Afghanistan has more than 1 dialect and dialects in western part of the country is much more closer to iranian dialects and dialects in the north is much more closer to Tajikistan's dialect. The dialect that is spoken in kabul is not Dari and has never been called dari and till today no Persian Professor or expert on this language has agreed that Dari = Kabuli accent. --Anoshirawan 23:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Dari has nothing to do with the Sassanids

At several places in the article, it is stated that Dari (was the name of the) court language of Sassanids.

• This is patently false, as is also quite a lot else in "source" #1. The referenced source #2 is falsely cited. The Iranica does not say that! And source #3 is a copy-and-paste from the bibliography of the Iranica article.
• The association of "classic style of Persian" and "court language of Sassanids" in the lede sentence is an anachronism. The classical Persian referred to is 9th/10th century onwards, which is 2 or 3 centuries after the Sassanids.

Literary New Persian is indeed called Dari and really has something to do with "court." But it is not the court of the Sassanids that is being referred to, but the court of Khorasan and Balkh. This was explicitely noted by al-Moqaffa (a.k.a. Rouzbeh) and by Moqaddasi (who said "court at Bukhara") but would be subsequently misunderstood as:

• "if the court of Khorasan/Balkh/Bukhara were using it in Rouzbeh's and Moqaddasi's time, then the Sassanids must have been previously using it too." This is obviously a logic error.
• Then the error had a child: "if the Sassanids were using it, then the language spoken in Khorasan/Balkh/Bukhara must be a variant of Persian."

Well, thats how mistakes got made in olden times, but WP articles should not propagate them, and it certainly should never misquote to support a bias. That is really nasty.
-- Fullstop 16:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Convoluted sentence

This sentence is extremely convoluted:

Some people do not consider Afghan Persian itself to be a dialect or a language. They consider it to be the written language (written Persian, with no dialects), and Persian (locally: Fârsi) the spoken language (spoken Persian, which has many different dialects).

It's the sort of thing which would only make sense if you knew the meaning already. 90.242.52.32 23:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

== Pashtun lies== people do not believe this pashtuns who are facists and nationalists. dari is a persian language just like how turkemen is turkish. this new farsi that is spoken in iran was not allways spoken by iranians their are many persian dialects. like pahlavi lori,,dari,mazandarani,gilaki,tylish,tati and thats just naming some. dari is pure persian even mo pure then the new farsi spoken by us iranians.

peace to my tajik,hazara,farsiwan persian brothers:D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.27.157 (talk) 21:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Convoluted sentence

This sentence is extremely convoluted:

Some people do not consider Afghan Persian itself to be a dialect or a language. They consider it to be the written language (written Persian, with no dialects), and Persian (locally: Fârsi) the spoken language (spoken Persian, which has many different dialects).

It's the sort of thing which would only make sense if you knew the meaning already. 90.242.52.32 23:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

== Pashtun lies== people do not believe this pashtuns who are facists and nationalists. dari is a persian language just like how turkemen is turkish. this new farsi that is spoken in iran was not allways spoken by iranians their are many persian dialects. like pahlavi lori,,dari,mazandarani,gilaki,tylish,tati and thats just naming some. dari is pure persian even mo pure then the new farsi spoken by us iranians.

peace to my tajik,hazara,farsiwan persian brothers:D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.27.157 (talk) 21:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Eastern and Western Farsi

Anoshirawan wrote on 25 October 2007 in an edit summary: "Whats Eastern and Western Persian lol..... In Afghanistan we have numerous dialects and most dialects spoken in the western parts of the country arte closer to the iranian dialects." Anoshirawan should look at the scholarly literature. It is true that the dialects spoken in western Afghanistan are close to the dialects spoken in western Iran, both are classified as Eastern Farsi. Eastern Farsi and Western Farsi are the terms that linguists, not necessarily native speakers, have determined analytically appropriately describe the major languages that cover the range of Persian dialects between Teheran and Kabul. See, for example, Decker, Kendall D. (1992) "Languages of Chitral" Sociolinguistic Survey of Northern Pakistan, 5 National Institute of Pakistan Studies, Quaid-i-Azam University and Summer Institute of Linguistics, Islamabad, xxii, 257 p. In addition there are eight (8) other Persian languages that are currently spoken, some only by isolated elements removed from the Tajikistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-Iran corridor. The Persian language sub-group is divided by linguists into the following languages:

• Aimaq (sometimes called Barbari or Berberi)
• Bukharic
• Darwazi (also called Badakhshani)
• Dehwari
• Dzhidi
• Farsi, Eastern (also called Eastern Persian)
• Farsi, Western (also called Western Persian)
• Hazaragi
• Pahlavani
• Tajiki

Each of these has in addition a number of dialects that have been recognized. Just for example, Aimaq has had the following dialects identified: Taimuri (Teimuri, Timuri or Taimouri), Taimani, Zohri (Zuri), Jamshidi (Jamshedi, Djamchidi, Yemchidi or Dzhemshid), Firozkohi, Maliki, Mizmast, Chinghizi, and Zainal. --Bejnar 19:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)