Talk:Elephant/Archive 3

On 1 August, 3 August, 18 October 2006 and 24 May 2007, the article page associated with this talk page was the target of vandalism encouraged by The Colbert Report, a popular television show. All prior and subsequent edits are noted in the revision history.

Archives
1 Colbert 2

SLONS

Some time ago, I heard smtg like this on the NPR: "Slons (Sloans, Slouns, Slones...) were Mammoth size animals, that lived long ago..." Can someone help, how to spell the word, and what kind animal is that. I made a search over the internet on all possible spellings, but failed. I am intrigued, because S-L-O-N is the all-slavic-language word for elephant.

Conservation Status

Is not listed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.160.89 (talk) 20:20, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

The African Elepahnts have two, the Asian Elephants have one... They are located at the tip of their trunks and serve to grab things... But how are they called? By professionals that is...Undead Herle King 23:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Slons are good —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.198.250.3 (talk) 08:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Size

How heavy are elephants? The article lists a newborn's weight and that of the heaviest elephant found, but no average. A weight range for males and one for females would, I think, be imperitive to this article.

Does it make any sense at all to describe the weight of the worlds largest elephant to three significant figures, when the initial measurement was to two significant figures, and was an estimate at that? Guinness reports an elephant shot in 1974 to four figures (12.24 tonnes - http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/content_pages/record.asp?recordid=51172 ) Danil Suits 06:46, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

The Smithsonian, aka Fenykovi, elephant is the 12 ton elephant shot in 1954. The guinness elephant was shot in 1974 and is the 12.24 tonne elephant. They were both killed in Angola. It would make more sense to use the 1974 figure as it was deemed larger under the same (if not greater) degree of scrutiny. The Fenykovi elephant (which at one point Wikipedia misrepresented as Elephas recki) is interesting in its own right. The skull weighed 1800 lbs (elephant skulls, despite being quite strong, are relatively light for their size to offset the weight of the trunk and tusks) and the skin alone weighed two tons.

the size is an exaggerate. From where do you get that fig. of 12 ton elephant 1954 Angola? And from where it reads the skin alone weighed two tons? Hey, the average Afri. elephant stands 2.8m and weigh 4500 kg(male). How can it grow to 8 tons, let alone 12 tons. 1974 fig. is just an estimate, and accord. to guinness 2006, it measured 3.96m on lying, not 4.2m. People tend to get too excited about size and weight. Complete bullshit! Todays, it's exceedingly hard to find an ele reaching 3.6m tall and over 6.5 tons. So, The 1954 fig. is WORTHLESS.

useful resource page

can we add please? www.geocities.com/RainForest/8298

I humbly submit my agreement that this extremely valuable resource page be added as a reference. The merits are numerous and, I should think, obvious to even the most casual viewer. First of all, these breeds of elephant are exceedingly rare and beautiful. I was priveleged enough to catch one in person and, I must tell you, I have not been the same since. The vicarious viewing of this beautiful specimen, as this page allows, offers a similar life changing experience for even the most jaded internet user.

Dear Wikipedians -- this is a page that deserves to be seen by the world. I hope, deeply, that you agree with my assessment, and take it into your deepest consideration.--194.25.159.210 17:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

African elephant population: actual figures

The total African elephant population appears to have been more or less stable for more than a decade (down tenfold from a half century ago). Some regions of Africa are dealing with local elephant overpopulations, most regions are not. When reporting 2002 estimates of 1,460,000 (probable) to 1,560,000 (possible) African elephants, researchers noted that this represented an increase over their 1998 figures (360,000 probable, 500,000 possible) suggestive of incredible population growth. However this apparent increase could have been an artifact of the much larger area represented in the 2002 survey – or "many other factors unrelated to overall elephant numbers" (From IUCN's African Elephant Status Report 2002, page 17 http://iucn.org/themes/ssc/sgs/afesg/aed/pdfs/aesr2002.pdf) The papers presented in Pachyderm magazine (journal of the African Elephant, African Rhino and Asian Rhino Specialist Groups) through June 2006 do not give any indication of a recent boom in elephant population (http://iucn.org/themes/ssc/sgs/afesg/pachy/pachy40.html). A "comprehensive African Elephant Status Report (AESR) is … expected to be published some time in 2006" based on their current data. See http://iucn.org/themes/ssc/sgs/afesg/aed/index.html ... Verifiable reliable peer-reviewed published scientific research by The World Conservation Union that has not yet been cited in the talk or the article. User:67.10.163.122|67.10.163.122]] 10:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Contrary to what is stated above, a formal statistical analysis of changes in elephant numbers, using only comparable survey data, was published in Pachyderm 38 (p.19-28). The analysis concluded that the elephant population in Southern Africa (which currently holds the largest regional population) and perhaps also in Eastern Africa, have been increasing considerably in recent years, at about 4.5% per annum for both regions combined. Nowhere near as fast as suggested by Colbert, admittedly, but at pretty high overall rates nonetheless. Perhaps more importantly though, the estimates that now remain on the Wikipedia elephant page (3,000,000 in 1970, 300,000 today) are as inaccurate and fictitious as those suggested by Colbert. There are believed to be about half a million African elephants today (give or take 100,000 or so). We do not know, and cannot reliably estimate, the figures in the 1970s; the first widely publicised continental estimate, 1.3 million in 1979, was made by Iain Douglas Hamilton in The African Elephant Action Plan (IUCN/WWF/NYZS - unpublished). The whole irony of the Colbert story, is that the widely publicised decline in elephant numbers between the late 1970s and the early 1990s came to be widely accepted through a very similar process of sheer repetition. The Douglas-Hamilton estimate included a very large proportion of guesses - extrapolations of assumed elephant densities over vast areas of assumed range. Such guesses, which made up over half of the continental estimate, were removed from subsequent continental estimates due to their lack of basis and unreliability. Many erroneously interpreted this as sign of substantial declines in overall elephant numbers. Numbers have undoubtedly declined drastically in many areas through poaching and habitat loss, but at the same time elephant numbers have been increasing in others - particularly in Southern Africa, where populations have been recovering after reaching their lowest point about 100 years ago. We simply do not the extent to which declines in some areas may have been offset by increases in others, and hence remain ignorant of the shape of the net trend at the continental level in the last 30 years or so. --Pitix 12:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

If you visit this article from American University, you will see that the actual population has increased in many African countries, such as Botswana, which is currently experiencing severe elephant overpopulation. While the population may have not tripled over the past ten years, it certainly has increased. Anyone who reverts my edits, which are actually backed by respectable sources, while yours are not, will be warned for vandalism. Cielomobile 18:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The actual Elephants page states worldwide figures of both 300,000 and 600,000 African elephants. Which is it? Adversive 17:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

In regards to poaching and illegal hunting

See this sentence:

One decade later, only around 600,000 remain. This decline is attributed primarily to poaching, or illegal hunting, and habitat loss.

Is there a difference between poaching and illegal hunting? Aren't those the same thing? If the intent of "or illegal hunting" was to provide a definition of poaching, isn't the fact that poaching is wikilinked enough to warrant the removal of the definition? --Stephane Charette 09:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Since it's conceivable that even native English speakers who are not familiar with hunting will be unsure what poaching is, it's a perfectly valid way to put it. The fact that something is linked doesn't mean that there should be absolutely no information about it included in the text. Zocky | picture popups 11:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not simple.wikipedia.org. Poaching is not a technical, or "hard," word, especially in a page about wildlife, or animals in nature, and I find the clause, or words separated by commas, somewhat insulting, or hurting to my feelings. Those who don't understand it can click, and those that do will find this clumsy and unnecessary. NTK 13:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

and talk about elephants, but isn't there a glaring discrepancy between the introduction and the first section?

Introduction: "Elephants are increasingly threatened by human intrusion, with the African elephant population plummeting from 3 million in 1970 to roughly 300,000 today..."

Zoology, African Elephant: "Today there are approximately 600,000 African elephants in the world."

Or have they been breeding like rabbits?

Straussian 13:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The rampant vandalism regarding elephant population probably threw off editors a bit. I suggest looking back at the history of the Elephant article pre-Colbert-vandalism to see what the actual numbers were. Better yet, look it up in a proper source. — Dark Shikari ^talk/_contribs 14:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

It would appear to be an estimate of 300,000 to 600,000 according to the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) and the African Wildlife Foundation (AWF) [1] "There are 300,000 to 600,000 African (in 37 range countries) and 35,000 to 50,000 Asian elephants (in 13 range countries) left in the wild."[2]

CNN list the Population at 580,000 in 1998 [3] Sirex98 16:30, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Check the African Elephant Database for the official (and most detailed) figures: the most recent data (2002) indicate a continental population of between 400,000 and 660,000. The figures now shown on the elephant page (3,000,000 million in 1970 and 300,000 today have NOT been taken from WWF as cited in the article, but from the Daphne Sheldrick Wildife Trus - an organization concerned with animal welfare lobby and not an authority on elephant population numbers. The WWF page cited gives figures of 1.3 million (not 3 million) in 1970 and 600,000 in 1989 (nothing for today). Somebody please correct the figures - else this is just as fictitious as the figures of the Colbert debacle. --Pitix 11:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed the following unreferenced and inconsistent population numbers from the article. Obviously, properly referenced recent estimates should be added by someone familiar with the authorities on this topic.

..., to 272,000 in 2000 and then to between 400,000 and 660,000 in 2003

Elroch 18:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Talk page archived

I have ruthlessly removed anything to do with the Colbert Report to /Colbert. I thought the segment was funny as hell, and good publicity for us, but this talk page should be about elephants again. I will continue to ruthlessly archive in this manner. -- SCZenz 17:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, so long as we haven't just created a Colbert chat room/messageboard. I'd support simply declaring it an archive, locking the page, and diverting any other comments about the matter to the talk pages of individual users. (But my, does this place look a lot cleaner.) Either way, it's a positive step. JDoorjam Talk 17:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

None of us have to read that page, so it's a lot more pleasant having comments there (since people will comment somewhere). After a week or so, hopefully, it will effectively be an archive. I'll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't become a chat room in any case. -- SCZenz 17:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Penis Section

I just indented this section to prevent it from showing up as a category. To be honest, it seems like a load of nonsense, but I'm not a biologist and I don't want to remove it without feedback from others. Anyone? alphaChimp ^laudare 20:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the section. It was entirely unsourced, and seems simply to be in response to Thursday's Colberrorism. Elephants are large. As large animals, they have large animal parts. I'll bet they have gigantic kidneys and monstrously large livers, too. They've got big feet and long tongues. And yes, the males have large penises (which, incidentally, is the plural -- that, or penes). All of the other elephant body part sections deal with unique or unusual aspects of the elephant, not issues related directly to the size of the creature: tusks, skin, ears, trunk. We don't need one on the penis. JDoorjam Talk 20:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

You may want to check these references [4] [5] Sysrpl 20:42, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Penis already has a discussion of elephant penises, and has for a long time—I suspect it's why Colbert brought them up, actually. I really think that it's more relevant there than here. -- SCZenz 20:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I concur. JDoorjam Talk 21:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Yup. Just zis Guy you know? 21:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, now this seems to be going a wee bit overboard. We're claiming the the actual, factual physiology of an animal is not worth mentioning in its own article because of a potential giggle factor and/or mention on a comedy show? Tell me we haven't reached this point. I remember, many years ago (1993, before the internet invented itself), having an extended conversation about the size of wangs in the animal kingdom (I had a fun HS english teacher, what can I say), the... um... generous size of the pachyderm's pecker actually did come up. I vividly remember because some girl blurted out "that's taller than I am" --one remembers these things over chemistry equations (go figure). Anyway, let's not be dreadfully serious, this is Wikipedia, not Britannica (and I say that in the best way possible). --Bobak 00:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It is neither a critical fact about the elephant, nor a fact that I believe our readers who type "elephant" into the search box are looking for. It is not more notable than the elephant's spleen size, which we do not go into detail on either. If you think the difference between Wikipedia and Britannica is that we focus on factoids to make girls giggle, you've got the wrong encyclopedia.

As I said above, the information in question is in penis; I imagine someone looking up that subject is much more likely to be interested. -- SCZenz 08:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I haven't been following this debate, but what about a "see also" link directly to the elephant section on the penis article? Seems like a nice compromise to me. Konman72 08:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I've heard no argument that merits compromise. If you would like to present one, I'm happy to discuss. -- SCZenz 08:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Nope, got no opinion either way. Just thought I'd try to help. Konman72 08:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate that; striving for compromise is a good thing in general. But I think compromises really only make sense if all parties are arguing based on the goals and policies of Wikipedia. It doesn't seem to me the pro-penis (heh) arguments above fit that description. -- SCZenz 08:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Elephants have the largest penises of land mammals. How is that not notable? I mean, we have an article on John Holmes and Dirk Diggler, and I didn't even need to check ahead to see if they were there. Does the article about blue whales say they are the largest mammals? Does the article about hummingbids say they are the smallest birds and flap their wings the fastest of birds? There's a reason why some think an elephant article shouldn't include its breadbasket, and it's Victorian-era puritanism: bleeding into the "serious" editors saying a penis has no place in an article about an animal that has one. That has nothing to do with what is "right" for an encyclopedia, it has everything to do with "well, we don't want to offend people". Get real. --Bobak 19:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

They are large animals. Everything about them is large. We don't need to add peniscruft to reinforce this rather obvious fact. Just zis Guy you know? 20:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. I'd be more supportive of this if they had extremely tiny penises, or four of them, or they shot flames or something. As it is it's just not unusual enough to merit its own section. I would tolerate a single referenced sentence or half-sentence near the beginning stating that their various organs are also all correspondingly above average if people really think that's not an obvious foregone conclusion that big animals have big animal parts, but I'm not sure even that is necessary. JDoorjam Talk 20:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Pssshh... by your exacting standards no penis would be worthy. (this is starting to read like a bad episode of Sex is the City... Nerds in the City Online?) Frankly, I don't know anyone, outside of the over-serious world of Wikipedia who wasn't amused by the revelation of pachyderm penis size. We're not prudes. --Bobak 23:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

IMHO comparative anatomy is useful and interesting information, having a table of median brain, spleen, heart, femur, other bones and organs, and (even) penis sizes for some major or representative species might be a "good thing"(tm) if it was semi-systematic and not overdone; representative, major, and interesting parts (we don't need "median weight of 3rd lumbar vertebra" just yet). Wikipedia's really not a datadump, of course, but comparative anatamy is important and one way to illustrate it is with the actual sizes of things. And of course, if we're talking about comparisons among species, we would need to include the endpoints of the range.... I'll shut up now... Bye... --studerby 20:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC) This sounds silly. Of course elephant anatomy and phisiology should be discuseed in the article about elephants. The penis article should include comparative anatomy of penises, not details about individual species. Zocky | picture popups 12:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The size of the penis is actually more informative than the size of other organs. Most organs are simply scaled up or down according to the size of the animal, and for these we should not bother to mention. Some organs are changed depending on physiology or social changes, and these should be mentioned. The length of the gut in a number of animals that digest otherwise undigestable foods, the size of the liver in animals that are able to cope with high concentrations of posion. And the size of the penis is used as one of the measures of male-male competition for reproductive success. In species with a single dominant male (such as gorillas) the penis size is small, while in species with a more complex social structure where females may have sex with numerous males (such as chimpanzee) the pensis size is relatively larger. This is therefore included in the article not for giggles, but as highly relevent information on the anatomy of the animal which gives us an insight into social structure. Sad mouse 20:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

It's hardly the question of size. Animals differ not just in how they look externally, but primarily in how their organs work. Elephant's penis, just as its hart, lungs, bladder, etc. has peculiar properties which should be described in the article about elephants. Zocky | picture popups 15:00, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Gorillas have really small penis's, they are large; so not all big animals have corrosponding parts. Just a thought, I support the link elsewhere compromise. I think that it is validated by the fact that someone is interested in elephant penises, this being a public encyclopedia, they should have a voice no matter how silly they may seem. By the way, you seem to have more Colbert issues. Thats what I actually entered this discussion page about.

Penis section / references have gone in article as I write this. Info on elephant penile size would be noteworthy if such size was SIGNIFICANTLY more or less than what a scientist might expect it to be from body mass. Like many animals, elephant penises (and whale penises for that matter)are not readily visible until tumescence. Human males have the most obviously visible genitalia, a consequence of their bipedalism and their lack of fur. Only video I saw of male elephant in coital activity certainly opened my eyes, and lowered my jaw. Btw, interesting that earlier comments mention elephant's kidneys. In fact these glands possess very revealing, perhaps unique characteristics in elephants, namely they are similar to those of amphibious mammals, giving important clues to the elephant's genesis. I do not think the article should be much expanded, but some further evolutionary material on this matter could well be incorporated. Myles325a 10:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The one way it is noteworthy is that, compared to body size, it's quite large. To scale up the average man to have a penis the size of an elephant's, he would have to be far larger than any elephant is or ever has been. Even so, saying where every penis-possessing animal lies on the relative scale might seem pointless. I don't know if they have the largest relative to body size of all mammals, or vertebrates, but they certainly do not of all animals - that's barnacles. Perhaps a more worthwhile comment is that the length is far less typical of body size than is the girth, or that the extreme length is one of the main difficulties in collecting elephant semen for conservation programs. Another non-trivial aspect of it is that Richard Dawkins admitted (I forget in which book) that, when he was a young researcher, he and his colleagues discussed how to compute the length of an elephant's penis by analysing its urine tracks, and were thoroughly amused. So, whether or not this section was trivial before, it need not be. I honestly don't know if it was, as I didn't read it. Of course, these non-trivial facts might be inappropriate because Wikipedia is not for indiscriminate collections of information, but I think other people's opinions are relevant here. I don't know what should be included. Anyone? 85.92.173.186 10:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

So, how'd we do?

Check out before and after: how the Elephant article has changed since July 31. Do we have a better article as a result of all that traffic? Did we lose anything in the shuffle? --M@rēino 15:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Overall it is much better. However, there is a major problem now: the article says 600,000 elephants are left, and then later says 300,000 are left. This issue needs to be resolved quite quickly... or maybe the number of elephants has doubled in the past 6 days? — Dark Shikari ^talk/_contribs 16:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I changed "roughly 300,000 today" -> "to roughly 600,000 in 1989, down to 272,000 in 2000" -- that is what the references next to it say. I don't know what the current population is... BCorr|Брайен 16:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice work. I touched up the grammar in the second sentence, but other than that it looks great. Thanks! -Harmil 19:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The population references still need to be cleaned up. According to the article, the population of African elephants has doubled in the past 6 years. The intro says there were 272,000 in 2000, while the next section says there are 600,000 today. 24.16.40.101 03:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Elephant Intelligence

With regard to this page, besides barring against any further acts of the aforementioned heinous wiki-crime, perhaps this page should have a section devoted to the purported intelligence of elephants, which seems in many ways to reflect the intelligence of other large mammals such as whales, dolphins, and primates such as chimpanzees and gorillas. The intelligence-type of parrots and crows does not seem to be as analogous, as it is more based on mimickry and a type of survivalist/strategic thought-pattern, although it is also noted. Matthew A.J.י.B. 01:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I was also surprised that there isn't such a section. That would definitely be a worthwhile addition. — Dark Shikari ^talk/_contribs 14:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The intelligence of parrots and crows may actually be more analogous than you think, since intelligence in mammals actually correlates far better with longevity than with size, both parrots are crows are quite long-lived by comparison to other birds, which indicates the analogy may hold up between birds and mammals. Sad mouse 20:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

While on the subject of elephant intelligence, it may also be good to discuss the belief that elephants have perfect memory, where it came from, and how close to the truth it is. -- Milo

an excellent article about elephant intelligence can be found at http://natureinstitute.org/pub/ic/ic5/elephant.htm

It is possible that being long lived and master of so complex an organ as the trunk has given rise to an animal closer in intelligence to humans than horses.

I have edited part of intelligence section as many studies tend to rank elephants about equal with cetaceans and apes and put them all in the same catagory.The duskydolphin 02:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Asian Elephant population error

The Elephant#Asian Elephant section states that there are "approximately 40,000" Asian Elephants total, comprised of "3,000-4,500" Sri Lankan Asian Elephants, "approximately 36,000" Mainland Asian Elephants and "33,000 to 53,000" Sumatran Asian Elephants. (Sidenote, I note the Asian Elephant article has no pop. figures at all) TeeEmCee 09:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Try checking the external links that the population figures are cited to, and then correcting the figures from there. Its quite possible the figures are from different dates: that was the problem with the conflicting African Elephant figures. — Dark Shikari ^talk/_contribs 09:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Removing sprotection

It's been two weeks now; I'm taking off the semi-protection. We'll probably still get pinged by a few people who thought it was OMG SO HILARIOUS, but it's time for us to move on. JDoorjam Talk 20:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Eco mumbo jumbo

Well, not really, it would be far too harsh to call it that. But still, this fragment is bad:

Usefulness to the environment

Elephants' foraging activities help to maintain the areas in which they live:

Can we find a way of formulating it that doesn't assume that preserving the current environment is good by definition? Zocky | picture popups 13:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It does not say that preserving the environment is good: it says that preserving the environment is useful to the environment. It makes no claim of "goodness," at least in the part you quoted. — Dark Shikari ^talk/_contribs 00:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought that overgrazing was a serious problem in areas with elephants, because generally they're confined to small nature preserves. john k 18:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

it is true, the elephant maintains savanna, which otherwise becomes wooded and can turn into forest, because the elephants destroy small trees and can graze on large trees. Out of interest, hippos are the opposite, they convert savanna to woodlands because they graze the grass and trample in into mud, but ignore areas where bushes start to grow. Hardly "eco mumbo jumbo", the elephant is a key-stone species. Sad mouse 23:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

They may be key for preserving savanna, but why would that necessarily be good? Zocky | picture popups 10:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Did it say "good"? But it increases ecosystem stability, which most people would agree is a good thing. Sad mouse 16:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe just phrasing it "role in the environment" is a good compromise? It's certainly more neutral.

Their Knees

According to some quick googling, elephants are the only animals with 4 foward pointing knees. IANA biologist, but Backwards pointed knees appear to go along with powerful "spring" tendons. Anybody know about the effect on running, or ability to climb hills? (There was a recent study on elephants hill-climing habits, can't find it at the moment)

The "elephants have four knees" idea is a common misconception. Elephants have two forward bending knees and two backward bending elbows. What people commonly call "knees" are in fact wrist and ankle joints. Looking at an elephant's skeleton may be helpful: http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/hierakonpolis/thumbnails/skeleton.gif There is also a short explaination on this zoo's elephant page: http://www.krugerpark.co.za/africa-elephant.html

Please sign comments in talk section ;) As far as I can tell, there are many websites that clearly state that the elephant is the only animal with four knees. elephant facts I don't like the sentence in the section that mentions cats and dogs. The wording seems odd to me. The undertow 03:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I quote this part of the article which I was thinking of changing - "Elephants are the only mammals to have four knees, most others either have two knees and two elbows, though the knees are often found in the front legs, or they have four elbows, like cats or dogs." Same deal with the cats and dogs. Those aren't elbows on the hind limbs, those are ankles. They have regular knees as well, except they're higher up, close to the body. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most mammals have the same limb joint structure, it's just the positioning is different.. like the difference between digitigrade and plantigrade, right? I'm not really a biologist or anything, though, so I'm not 100% certain if it's a difference in terminology. I just know that's a common misconception I run across all the time, confusing the analogous joints. Errick 16:05, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Being a vet, I confirm that elephants, cats and dogs have 2 knees and 2 elbows: A knee is a joint which has four parts: the FEMUR (thigh bone) meets the TIBIA (large shin bone) and FIBULA bone and form the main knee joint. The knee also includes a PATELLA (=kneecap) which protects the joint. Elbows are the joint between the HUMERUS (upper arm) and RADIUS (the outer bone of the forearm) & ULNA (the inner bone of the forearm) bones. There is a clear image of the skeletton of an elephant on: http://www.indyzoo.com/pdf/elephant_skeleton_image.pdf Please remove the sentence "Elephants are the only mammals... cats or dogs." 193.48.189.202 14:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Use of the term 'species'

The entry claims that "It has long been known that the African and Asian elephants are separate species." The term "species" is ambiguous and there is not consensus in its definition. From one of the most accepted it's deducted that two living beings don't belong to the same species when they cannot reproduce together. So from the current wording it can be deducted that there can't be hybrids of Asian and African elephants. Is that the case? Shouldn't all this be clarified in the article? MJGR 10:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

There is sometimes not consensus that things are two separate species. But it can certainly be know that two things are separate species. We know, for instance, that dogs and cats are separate species, whatever definition of "species" one may use. The same is true of the two kinds of elephants, which, after all, belong to different genera and are not all that closely related at all. john k 18:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that. But my doubt about the possibilities of crossbreeding Asian and African elephants are still there? Is that possible or not? MJGR 07:33, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

.....I think you, the editors of this site, are missing two key issues in the Colbert satire: 1)the point that Wikipedia can be changed at any time and that that is eerily like what certain politicians seem to want to do to reality; and 2) the elephant population is INDEED decreasing (remember, Colbert is satire), and his use of this as an example was because only someone truly ignorant would argue otherwise. As satire, this is obviously aiming at various politicians (and the current administration's) efforts to solicit science by consensus rather than scientific research.....

I know you guys posted these comments several months ago and have probably moved on with your lives, but I thought I'd mention this anyway. A species is often defined as any two creatures that can reproduce and create viable offspring. In other words, their offspring must be able to reproduce. For instance, you can mate a horse and donkey to get a mule. However, mules are sterile and cannot reproduce, therefore horses and donkies are different species. I have no idea if this is the case with Asian and African elephants though. -- Fogelmatrix 15:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Trunks

At one point in the article, it states that the trunk is almost useless on newborn elephants as it has little muscle tone, and then in another it says that they rely on their trunks a lot when they are young, since they are blind. What's the deal with that?RadicalPi 03:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The article currently states that biologists say that there are over 40,000 muscles in the trunk. This should cite a source either way, but I thought I'd mention that Steven Pinker in The Language Insinct (page 340) says there are over 60,000 (citing some other guys). JordanDeLong 03:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Homosexuality

The section of this article was somewhat intriguing, but it feels out of place by itself, considering that elephants are not the only mammal or animal in general that has this type of behavior; it's been seen in a lot of other animals, and one could assume that any given species can be "gay". I don't think it doesn't belong in the article at all, but at least could be moved to the "reproduction" part. Okay maybe it's not actually "reproduction" but its at least somewhat related.

I don't know, I guess I feel like it's akin to having a section called "breathing". That fact that elephants breath is sort of significant and informative, yet at the same time isolating this information makes it too prominent in the article because the behavior isn't unique to elephants.

Eleo 20:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Seems like a reasonable suggestion. Haiduc 02:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The extent of homosexuality in mammals is not yet known. You assume that homosexuality will be found in any given species. This may be true, but is a massive assumption at the moment, and cases of documented homosexuality in animals are still rare, and thus notable. I would say leave it in for now, and if later down the track a universe theory of flexible sexuality in mammals is determined then take out individual species references then. Moving under reproduction would be okay though. Sad mouse 20:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• This is rather absurd. The source for that section, Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity, is an entire book about homosexuality in the animal kingdom. The author suggests 450 species of aniamls are involved in homosexual acts. One of which is dogs; do we have a homosexuality section in the dog article (or the other 450 species of animals this man suggests)? We already have List of animals displaying homosexual behavior and a section on this in Animal sexuality. This can't be any more notable than the fact that they have a huge penis... JustOneJake 21:31, 25 August 2006 (UTC) (Signature Added for Clarity)

• • While the heading under which this information appears is debatable, its inclusion is anything but absurd. By your logic we should not have any discussion of elephant reproduction since, after all, all animals reproduce. As for the other four hundred and fifty animals, please realize that for me this is only an avocation - I have a life too, and I simply have not had time to get around to all of them yet. Others can help - this topic is notorious for having long been censored. Haiduc 01:05, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

• • • Maybe I misunderstand what the page is supposed to be about, and if so that's fine. Here was my thought process on this though: I skimmed some books on elephants. All of the ones that talk about the biological of elephants have a section on reproduction. I don't see any with a section on homosexuality in elephants. When I search for elephants AND biology at Google books, then search the corresponding books for homosexuality none get results. Additionally, search for elephants AND biology AND homosexuality, and all your results will be books that specifically talking about homosexuality in animals or are completely unrelated. There is only 19 resulting books too, and I'd say only half are relevant (compared to 7860 for elephants AND biology). Just because we have one book that might have a reference to this doesn't mean it is a widely held belief. If we put everything someone thought was interesting about elephants in the article it'd be unreadable. I also still think the large penis is a great analogy. It seems to be a consensus that doesn't belong, because all animals have penises and this one just happens to have the largest. Sure, all animals reproduce, and some may have homosexual tendencies, or behaviors that mimic this, but that doesn't make it encyclopedic. It just seems it fits better in an article about the subject of homosexuality in animals. JustOneJake 14:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

• • • • I would draw your attention to a couple of points. First, Bagemihl does not "suggest" nor is he expressing a "belief." He is reporting on the observations of other zoologists. He specifically cites twelve (!) sources that discuss homosexuality in elephants. Even if he were the only one to report such activity, proper encyclopaedia editing would require us to report on his claims, and to adduce counter claims, were there any. As for the lack of mention in the general literature, I do not think anyone here is unaware of the censorship that has attended this topic over the years, and the professional risk of studying and publishing on this subject. Haiduc 23:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

• • • • • I only read the referenced page on Google Books, and did not realize he cited 12 other sources. At any rate, I agree with most of what you said. Perhaps the section belongs on the page. With that said, I am opposed to moving it under reproduction. Reproduction is "the process by which plants and animals give rise to offspring" (Merriam Webster). There is no possible documented way for homosexuality to directly lead to reproduction, and thus is completely inappropriate in that section. Specifically Bagemihl states past research in the field has often failed to find an explanation "particularly when they try and show how homosexuality might contribute to heterosexual reproduction" (Bagemihl, pg 5). He does not refer to it as reproduction, and specifically states research in attempting to find a connection has failed. The section would need to be titled to sexuality to make sense. JustOneJake 21:31, 25 August 2006 (UTC) (Signature Added for Clarity)

I think it belongs here. If it just said 'elephants can be homosexual' it wouldn't be very interesting. But the section describes homosexual behaviour that is specific to elephants, like the use of the trunks, etc. It therefore belongs on the elephant page. The article is a whole is an admirably long, detailed one that discusses many aspects of elephant behaviour that are specific to elephants. The homosexuality section fits in perfectly with that. And the cited source is a book published by a thoroughly reputable publisher. If it came from a dodgy website or some self-published book, I'd be more doubtful, but it doesn't. The Singing Badger 01:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I say keep it in. First of all, wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia so we can go more in depth than some other sources on the topic, especially when the information is verifiable. This is a topic that many people would find interesting, so why get rid of it? Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 22:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

• It does describe some unique behavior, but most of the section describes the sexual behavior that is stated to be analogous to heterosexual sex between elephants. There's nothing especially unexpected about that. The only unique behavior is the apparent social structure that is different from that of heterosexual elephants. And again, it's not that the section is unnecessary, I just think it's out of place. The most informative part of the section is about the social structure, not so much the actual sex.

Since this isn't about reproduction, wouldn't a more appropriate section be "Social behaviour"? Zocky | picture popups 15:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Given that humans weren't "homosexual" until the 1870s (passim Foucault), it's a little odd to apply this word to non-human animals. Same-sex genital behaviour, yes. Homosexuality, no. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.8.102 (talk • contribs)

"Same-sex genital behavior" is by definition homosexual. Homo = same, sexual = obvious. --Chris (talk) 10:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually Homo does not mean same it means man. It comes to English from Latin not Greek. When first used in homosexual it implied man-man relationship. --72.92.124.109 00:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

You are entirely incorrect. Where did you get such an idea?! Homosexual is in contrast to heterosexual. Go look up the root hetero, please. -Harmil 02:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

• • This is a classic case of anthropomorphism, and should definitely be removed from this page. It is applying human behavior to animals, which is more concerned with human sexual politics than it is with science. Unlike human homosexuality, this behavior in elephants does not interrupt with normal reproduction, and is in harmony with a long established order in the elephant society.

The material is the work of zoologists and is properly cited. If you have evidence to the contrary please feel free to produce it. Haiduc 19:52, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The behavior is not in doubt, but peer review does not support the label homosexuality. "Male Bonding" is a more appropriate term. It is a natural process that does not interfere with normal reproduction of the species. Playing human sexual politics does not advance the science!

Whose peers? Zoologist peers concur with the description as "homosexual". Other "peers" have no standing. Haiduc 13:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Have you ever pondered the title of your single source (Biological Exuberance)? It's not exactly something that screams objectivity. In fact, almost everything about Mr. Bagemihl's works suggests a rather strong agenda on his part. Nor is Mr. Bagemihl a zoologist, but a biologist professor of "linguistics and cognitive science." Paired with qualitative statistics and the deluge of papers and studies that accompany the "publish or perish" philosophy, I think some skepticism is warranted here. Doubtless, there is homosexual behavior amongst elephants and other animals (I can't wait until you get to jellyfish homosexuality, personally), and likely it has been overlooked and even ignored at various times, but I think the reasonable position here is to think of Mr. Bagemihl as an antithesis–a reactive extreme, not a model of neutrality–and to not become too zealous in his defense. Mind you, this is directed more at these and other comments than the content itself, though I would tend to doubt specific statistics for the above reasons. -- MLS

• • Indeed, in reviewing Bagemihl work I would concur that it is agenda-driven, and my inclination after observing Haiduc's great efforts to have this section included on the elephant and lion pages is that this user is also agenda-driven, but at the same time, I don't know that it necessarily detracts from the article or is necessarily irrelevant. I know there is a bit of controversy in the scientific field regarding Bagemihl's work, despite some of Haiduc's claims to the contrary, and perhaps at some point I'll add cites to those as well to give the section a little more substance. Ronnymexico 17:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

i wouldn't mind terribly this section being thinned and replaced under "social behavior"; but the title should stay. "same-sex bonding"? that's called "friendship" when there is no committed relationship or mutually pleasurable sexual behavior. when it does, it's called "homosexuality"; the word has the additional benefit of being less ambiguous than the 'revised' title. and who says elephants don't have social constructs, even some analogous to our own? they are large-brained, highly social, long-lived mammals after all. - Metanoid (talk, email) 02:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Allomothers

The article has its own subtopic about the "allomother" elephants that help raise baby elephants, but under the reproduction headline, elephant "aunts" are mentioned as doing the same thing. This seems redundant and the section in reproduction should probably be taken out, especially since it really has nothing to do with actual reproduction.

largest elephant recorded

The largest elephant ever recorded is a bull African elephant, which was shot in 1974. It measured 4.16 m (13 ft 7 in) to the shoulder and weighed 12.24 tonnes (26,984 lb). No, according to guinness 2005, and their web site, this ele. weighs an estimated 12.24 tons and measured approx. 3.96 m at the shoulder, measuring when the ele. lied dead. I believe the actual weight is much less. i am quite sure that most of the weight of old ele., which are unusually high, are estimation, as are the case of hippo's weight.

[Citation: Guinness World Records 2006] Scribenz 06:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Crushing by elephant - comments requested

Would anyone here like to comment at Crushing by elephant? It is currently up for featured article status at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Crushing by elephant. In particular, comments on the different species of elephants would be welcomed. Carcharoth 14:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Both in the main article and in Crushing -- the Elephant Traps story should be deleted for several reasons. Citing "a newsletter" is no better than "an anonymous online source." The conclusion drawn in Elephant Traps sounds perilously like a blend of rumor and opinion. For contrast, an example of a sourced quote seems to strongly contradict Traps. In the 1951 book Circus Doctor (Boston: Little Brown and Company, page 157), author J. Y. Henderson, DVM gives this eyewitness account of behavior following a fire in Cleveland in 1942:

The zebras were so wild they couldn't be handled. They ran in circles until they fell. The elephants couldn't be moved until Walter McClain arrived. When he arrived he shouted an order. At this point each elephant reached his trunk down, pulled up his stake, and in perfect formation they grabbed one another's tails with their trunks and marched out. [So, I would argue, they aren't too stupid or brainwashed, but they will work as a team, cooperate with their boss, as do many humans -- soldiers, fire fighters, Olympic athletes -- even in times of great pain or fear. At least Doc Henderson's story was widely published, naming people who could be questioned for years following those specific events, rather than the folktale approach in Traps.]

I don't recommend this story for the general article because there's no end to eyewitness stories of fascinating bits of behavior and psychological theories based on them. For that same reason the Elephant Traps paragraph also fails, and the Crushing article could be deleted in its entirety. The treatment of elephants in the general article is inconsistent with wiki articles on humans, bears, horses, tigers, for examples. Flimsy statements and bizarre sub-topic choices still need to be weeded out. Articles on comparable intelligent/trainable mammals do not attempt to focus so much on crime and cruelty. That an unverifiable tale has been cut and pasted many places makes it more important to avoid repeating that unsourced item. Please delete sections that fail to meet minimum criteria. (Sorry about the signature, but sign-on is looping tonight. 49) 172.136.169.187 03:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Hannibal's elephants

There is only a very brief mention of Hannibal's smaller North African Forest elephants. Can more please be added about this? Carcharoth 14:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Do it yourself. Be Bold. --andreasegde 15:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Classification

At the very start of this article, it says that elephants are of the family "pachyderm", but following that link one discovers that the classification "pachyderm" is obsolete. This creates confusion, at least to me, and should be cleared up. -- Unsigned

It says A family of pachyderm, not THE family of pachyderm. The word "pachyderm" is still a clearly defined word - meaning "thick-skinned" - and it is hard to deny that it truthfully describes elephants. It is not used by biologists because modern taxonomy strives to use monophyletic classifications, and the various animals which are (correctly) known as pachyderms are not closely related to each other. Thus, there are multiple unrelated families of animals of which all are a subgroup of the group of pachyderms - and elephants are one of these families. In short: the world pachyderm is valid, but scientifically almost useless. Hope this helps. -- Milo

SProtection

I see that the article is now SProtected with no note on the talk page. I propose unprotection pending any note from an admin --Nick Catalano _contrib ^talk 08:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that should be unprotected, but last time I proposed unprotection, my request was denied by an admin. Perhaps you might want to make a request on the requests for protection page. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 17:27, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

The article was last unprotected 6 days ago. It was vandalized several times an hour for the following 24 hours, after which it was reprotected. I'm a little bit confused by what kind of note you think is required on the talk page; the tag on the main page says "persistent vandalism," and in fact persistent vandalism can be seen in the edit history.

Given how long the issues here have already persisted, I propose to wait a bit longer—say, another week—before trying unprotection again. -- SCZenz 18:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. What Nick was saying, though, is there is no indication of its protection on the talk page, as there normally is on a protected page's talk. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 18:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, common sense seems to indicate that an explanatory note on the article itself is just as good as a talk page note, and should be sufficient if there's nothing more to say. For those who prefer prefer policy pages to common sense, you might refer to Wikipedia:Protection policy, which lists many requirements for page protection but does not, as far as I can tell, require a special note on the article's talk page. -- SCZenz 22:43, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

A note on the talk page would clarify what the admin's goals were and make requesting unprotection easier. You would know the original intent of the administrator in regards to the reasoning behind the protection in the first place. I don't know why the page was protected, and now I know. So when I go to ask unprotection, I don't have to ask why some random admin did xyz. It isn't required, but at the very least it is common courtesy and aids in the goal of improving Wikipedia for new or anonymous users by opening up these articles. --Nick Catalano _contrib ^talk 03:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

All the information I gave above came a quick look through the article history. And I have to admit I still don't see how "frequent vandalism" as cited in the talk page note is unclear. But yeah, you can always ask for more information—asking the admin who did the protection, or asking on the talk page, would both be appropriate. I guess the only thing I find odd is the implication at the start of this thread that not knowing why the page is protected is grounds for arguing it should be unprotected. It should rather, I think, be grounds for asking questions. -- SCZenz 04:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

There have been numerous incidents of vandalism to this talk page alone, too (I have reverted several of these), so I think now that removing the semi-protection would be a bit premature. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 05:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

You might want to look at the page's protection log -- it's been protected pretty much since Colbert's show. Every week unprotection has been tried, always resulting in a flood of the same old vandalism from IPs. Also I am unsure what about the protection is unclear, given the message at the top of this page: On August 1 and August 3, 2006, the article page associated with this talk page was the target of vandalism encouraged by The Colbert Report, a popular television show. --Chris (talk) 10:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I think semi-protection should stay, for at least another month or so. By then things will have died down, and if not, extend it to the end of the year, if not even then, then an additional month. As long as necessary for the flood to evaporate.--Planetary 00:57, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Not only has the time passed, but the article is now fully protected! I see no reason for this, and have lost all faith in humanity, or what little I had in the 1st place.--Planetary 04:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It's only semi-protected, not fully protected. Honestly, this article just has to stay semi-protected indefinitely, or at least for a very long. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 03:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It's a real shame. Why can't people be more productive with their time? --Planetary 05:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The article should say that evolutionists don't have a clue how the elephant family came to be

The article should say that evolutionnist don't have a clue how the elephant family came to be. I cite the following:

Elephants have long been known to be excellent swimmers,1 even to the point of using their trunks as breathing snorkels. Now some Australian biologists are promoting the theory that the evolutionary ancestors of elephants spent millions of years as aquatic animals.2 This of course flies in the face of previously ‘certain’ beliefs about ‘elephant evolution’. [6]

ken 17:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo

First off, the cited source is "answersingenesis.org". Hardly a reliable, peer-reviewed source. But, even still, there's no controversy here, just a misunderstanding of the scientific method, and an over-simplification of the origin of species. Nothing to see here. -Harmil 19:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Elephant attacks?

We have Crocodile attacks and Alligator attacks in Florida, but no Elephant attacks. This excellent NYT article might be a good source to get started. "An Elephant Crackup?", .. "Attacks by elephants on villages, people and other animals are on the rise. Some researchers are pointing to a species-wide trauma and the fraying of the fabric of pachyderm society."

(cc: Talk:Crushing by elephant)

--Stbalbach 01:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

grammar/spelling

I noticed some spelling errors and questionable grammar, but I can't change anything. Just a reminder for someone who can to please do so. thank you. 129.173.185.68 18:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC)MikeD

You could try copying the article's source code into Elephant/temp, changing it, and using {{editprotected}} to request that it be copied back. --Damian Yerrick (☎) 17:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not going to work for two reasons - 1. subpages cannot be created in the article namespace, and 2. IP users cannot create new articles.

Instead detail your concerns here please. Thanks/wangi 20:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, you could try registering, copying the article's source code into a page whose name looks like a subpage but isn't (or does this violate policy?), and making changes there. --Damian Yerrick (☎) 02:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

If you're going to register, you might as well simply do it in user space. I'm not sure what you mean by "looks like a subpage," but if you mean writing a page at Elephant/temp, then yes, this is frowned upon. But this is all likely to be a moot point, as I doubt the page will continue to be protected past today. JDoorjam Talk 15:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Asian elephant in picture

Augienism has been trying to note that the picture in the African elephant section is an Asian elephant, but the edit keeps getting reverted as vandalism. The elephant is an Asian elephant. The small ears are the give-away, but you can also just click on the image and go to the Web site of the photographer. It was photographed in India. -Harmil 04:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Discrepancy in the population estimates of asian elephants.

40000 total asian elephants - 36000 mainland elephants = 4000 other species.

But the population of Sumatran sub-species is listed as 33000-53000. This is wrong math. I could only guess that it is 3300-5300.

requested edit

since i can't edit the page right now (thanks, stephen colbert), will someone who can change "trunk-hole" to "nasal cavity" (or "trunk-hole", that would be fine too) in the section Religion and philosophy? thanks in advance. 67.68.207.52 07:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

oh, and can someone also add a link to mirror test in the section on self-awareness? thanks again. 67.68.207.52 07:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

one more! in the section on varieties, Motty ought to be linked. 67.68.207.52 07:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

One more edit

I am a registered user and still I am not able to make an edit. So I sugest the following addition about adding some references. Somebody who can make changes please incorporate these: In the evolution section about the trunk please add this reference:

Also add this: Elephants are the only mammals that do not have a pleural space. Even though the early fetus has a pleural cavity, the pleural cavity is obliterated during late gestation by connective tissue. This has been suggested as a evolutionary selection to prevent pleural vascular rupture due to sever negative pressure for underwater inspiratory efforts though the large dead-space of the trunk.

Thanks --Dr.saptarshi 03:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Add Edit On Self Awareness Explanation.

Research Scientist Anwar Matar Hasan suggests that elephant self awareness might have been a conditioned ability as well as the evolutionary aspect in the larger brain size and intelligence of elephants. Elephants drink water from lakes or other water bodies using their trunk. This causes less disturbance on the water surface than other animals who drink using their mouths. Consiquently, they are more able to see their reflection in the water. Over time, unlike other animals, this has conditioned them to recognise, and understand the aspects of reflection.

Credit goes to Research Scientist Anwar Matar Hasan at Keele University, North Staffordshire, UK.

Please add this as a possible explanation to Elephant self awareness.

You can add it yourself, but only if you provide a link to a published reliable source for it. -- Donald Albury 16:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

if this is true for elephants, it must also be true of Bottlenose dolphins..since they see their reflection when they come out of the water. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.140.44 (talk) 03:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Self Awareness

If anybody is interested in the orignal article on Elephants and the mirror test, see:

J. M. Plotnik, F. B. M. de Waal & D. Reiss, Self-recognition in an Asian elephant, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, November 7 2006, vol. 103, issue 45, page 17053–17057.

(Note the new section in the WP article about this. This is certainly interesting!)

--Delta Tango • Talk 07:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

elephants looking in mirrors

The elephant page is locked and there was an elephant related story in the news this week. Elephants can recognize themselves in the mirror. I think it should be added to the elphant page.

Do you have a source for this? -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 17:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Not only is it verifiable, it's already in the article. See Elephant#Self-awareness and the discussion sections immediately above this one. -- Vary | Talk 18:11, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Female troops?

So, the elephant page says only males were war elephants but the war elephant page say either one. Anyone *know* which it is? (Also posted to war elephant talk.) Nklatt 15:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Would be nice to know their hearing range

A web search completely fails on that aspect. Dog and Cat articles have detailed sections on the animal's senses, but not elephant. Stephen Colbert is partially responsible for this article's failure. Anomo 06:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Use of Pachyderm is Polyphyletic

The link to Pachydermata states that the term Pachyderm is an outdated phyletic group. Indeed, it is Polyphyletic, a pitfall that most phylogenists choose to avoid. Is it possible to move the reference to "Pachyderm" to another part of the article, perhaps in the "Humanity and Elephants?"

Sure, go for it. JDoorjam Talk 06:40, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Age?

It would be nice for the article to have section about ages of elephants, for both African and Asian elephants. The lead section just mentions they can live longer than 70 years but does not provide any source or further information. It would be a useful thing to include some references to ages and how long elephants can be expected to live. Thanks. Ekantik 02:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Elephant Rage

I took the liberty of moving the picture of Tyke the elephant down from the "Musth" section to "Other causes", as per that article, Tyke was female.

The other causes section is very scant, right now, and does not mention abuse or personality issues in any way. If anyone who actually knows anything about elephants (unlike me) could expand that with some good, NPOV material, that would help. Blurble 19:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Below posting by Manukarnika The article on elephant rage talks about elephants killing people in India. The truth is...in the name of Temple festivals, elephants are being mistreated. They get prodded and injured with an iron spear, they are made to walk on tar roads at 50 degree Centigrade temperature, during festivals they are hardly fed and kept in overcrowded enclosures. Sometimes elephants are in Musth, yet used on these parades. Under such horrible conditions if elephants lose their cool and turn on people, who is to blame the elephants?

Here are some news items on the topic http://www.hindu.com/2007/03/26/stories/2007032600910200.htm http://www.hindu.com/2007/04/20/stories/2007042001410200.htm

Recently an elephant named Avittathore Muralikrishna (grand name, but sorry life) overworked for 3 days in festivals fell down unable to board a Truck and died in the middle of the road after a few hours of trumpeting for help. The elephant was later found to have had many injuries on its body. http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1088057

Posted by manukarnika

Hey.

I just wanted to know what would happen if (by some strange aphrodisiac) the population of elephants actually does triple. oTHErONE _(Contribs) 13:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Obviously this would be a very good thing. The world needs more elephants. In a perfect universe, the Earth would be populated by nothing but elephants, a fact often cited by TNEC (The National Elephant Council). Alas, this will probably never happen, because mankind is evil, industry is bad, etc. etc. etc. MGlosenger 23:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Nothing but elephants? Wouldn't they starve without the occasional rabbit? --A Good Anon 06:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

elephants dont eat rabbits...?

If the world was populated with nothing but elephants and rabbits, I bet they would.

The Rampaging Elephants

I herd male Elephants attack cities in giant herds, bite peoples heads off, and spit them out on female Elephants bodies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.91.253.1 (talk) 23:27, 2 January 2007 (UTC).

I heard they get drunk off beer.[[7]] Vranak 02:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Standard versus Imperial

I have noticed sometimes the standard units are listed first with the imperial following, and other times it is vice versa. Any thoughts on the idea of the article being edited so that it is standardized as always one or the other first? --

Mourning

I saw a French TV news piece last year showing elephants sad over the death of a fellow elephant. Please create a section in the article. They are so much like humans. Chivista 15:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd second this. I remember hearing in a documentary about how elephants were aware of their own mortality and their attitude and rituals towards death. I came to this article to find out more about this. Whether it's true or not, I think it deserves a mention. 82.34.235.168 22:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I've seen this also - they often linger around a dead elephant, and have even been known to take tusks with them as mementos and kind of "cherish" them in the same way we would --leopheard 10:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Stephen Colbert controversy

On his nightly show on January 29, 2007, the host Steven Colbert called on his viewers to change the elephant entry to say that elephant population has tripled. As a result many editors have vandalized this cite. A better place for this is in an article on the reliability of information on sites like wikipedia, not the elephant site. At most a link or referral to the other article as elephants are not related to the efforts of Stephen Colbert -- only vandalism is related to his efforts. Chivista 15:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC) I have changed my spelling to excise my typos. :( Chivista 19:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I would hate to leave wikipedia in your hands, Chivista, if you can't even spell the words "artcile" or "vandfalism." Gregorywhiffleton 19:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

LOL Mach Seventy 23:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this is true anyways. 'The Word' was in fact about 'Wikiality' and he did mention that some viewers have since edited Wiki to say "that the elephant population has tripled". He also mentioned that this happened about a week ago if I remember correctly. He did not "urge" his viewers to continue to vandalize this "cite". He did, though, urge them to change the entry 'Reality' to say "Reality has become a commodity", but it was already locked before, which I'm sure his researchers checked beforehand. Ironic Camel

This episode with Colbert using the manipulation of the Elephant entry as an illustration of the maleability of facts, or "reality", as definined in Wikipedia is pretty significant. It seems to merit a mention in the "Popular Culture" section of the entry. Hoopla-pdx 05:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I havn't seen anything about Steven Colbert in this article, which is wierd since Wikipedia tries very hard to stop him. I know Wiki probably doesn't like him constantly pointing out how easy it is to change something into 'wikiality', but I think, right now anyways, he might be a tad more popular than "Dumbo" Ironic Camel 31 January 2007 EDIT: Why was this topic moved to the bottom?

"Why was this topic moved to the bottom?" - see the guidelines --Spiffy sperry 17:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The reason he isn't mentioned is because the vandalism has nothing to do with elephants. The vandalism is to the elephant article. In this case, information about this prank of his can be mentioned on the Stephen Colbert or Colbert Report or Wikipedia article, but not on the Elephant article because it has absolutely nothing to do with actual elephants. —Dark•Shikari^[T] 11:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

This is not the point of the "prank" - the point is that "reality has become a commodity". The truth is that whatever people say to be true becomes the truth. This prank was really silly - it didn't do anything. However, if nobody edited it, or if everyone agreed to it, the text itself would have become the truth, regardless of the facts. If we wanted to believe that there were three times the number of elephants, there would be, as far as most people are concerned. He's just pointing out the hypocracy of a website that governs through general consensus to determine validity. Ironically, this is also the best way of presenting information in the most accurate and precise method. -- 75.38.114.55 05:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Accurate and Precise? Unlikely, and redundant. Wikipedia is far from accurate.

Accuracy and Precision are not redundant terms. For example, a thermometer that measured to a tenth of a degree but is always reading 10 degrees warmer than the real temperature would be more precise but less accurate than a thermometer that measured only to the nearest degree but had a margin of error of only 3 degrees. Thus, we can call the first thermometer more precise and the second thermometer more accurate. The difference is subtle but awesome.

I believe that the Colbert Controversy should be included in the "Popular Culture" section of the elephant article.

It's a shame the article has had to be protected because of thus. It would be nice to add to the article the recent discovery that the MRCA of all elephants lived 7.6 MYA. 85.92.173.186 10:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

New Species, The Stegodont

Here is an article I found

LIVING STEGODONT OR GENETIC FREAK? (C) Copyright Ben S. Roesch 1995

(Copyrighted content removed. JDoorjam JDiscourse 22:58, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

Isn't linking to copyrighted material perfectly legal? Hemidemisemiquaver 18:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Elephant toes?

Do elephants have toes/ fingers?

Thanks

87.180.242.203 11:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

No, they have hooves. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.37.7.247 (talk) 21:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

do they have nails? hoove nails?

thanks

Elephants n people

Do we have this sec on how many people they kill per year, a little stat box would b good--HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 21:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Lions eating Elephants

I just saw this Ngeo film Deadly enemies or something like that. It had 1 female lion trying to kill a Bull elephant. They said it was the boldest attempt in the history of nature. can we add a link to this film or would that b a vio of policy? 1 little lion on a bull elephants back trying to eat him. the elephant didnt even know. we need more info on this activity--HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 00:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC) i found a sample: [sample of elephant almost getting eaten by lions 7]

unfortunately national geographic contains a fair share of sensationalism. it is not uncommon for a lion to attack a baby elephant and it is not 'so incredibly rare' for a group to attack a large elephant if they are hungry enough. --AlexOvShaolin 18:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

YEAH, I doubt we can witness the boldest attempt in the history of nature, considering nature has existed for over a million years. - EGreg

Only a million? News to me... Theamazingzeno 23:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

"Nature has existed for over a million years" Hahahah, that's classic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.176.105.40 (talk) 13:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Baby Motty

In this article it is said that he died 12 days after birth, he was born 7/11/78 (Walley) and died 7/21/78 (Walley). that is ten days. this should be corrected. just letting you know. the page I received my information from was: http://www.hybridelephant.com/motty.html and they would definatly know what's up with Motty.

Babyfire 01:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Deaths by elephants in India

I am skeptical about the unsourced statements "They can go on unexpected bouts of rage, and can be vindictive. In India, up to 30 people are killed weekly by the raging elephants." I was able to find one source [8] that mentioned that 239 humans were killed by elephants in Assam in the past 5 years. That's a little less than one person per week. Now, there are 28 states in India, but if Assam has more elephants than India's other states (as the same article claims), then it seems fairly unlikely that all of the rest of India's states have more deaths by elephant than Assam does. So I'm just going to remove that sentence. The information that follows describes unexpected behavior and things that can be interpreted as rage, but, at least unsourced, I am think the word "vindictive" is a little anthropomorphic. Enuja 02:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Elephants do take revenge - this is from some article from the web this week thousands of people fled a village in Jharkhand after elephants kept returning for what appeared to be revenge raids after the death of a member of the herd. Indian officials say the villagers did not kill the elephant, a 17-year-old female. They say she strayed out of the forest into the village, fell into an irrigation ditch and drowned. The villagers gave her a respectful burial three days ago, but ever since the herd has attacked the village. "We have not slept for three days and the few of us left are lighting huge bonfires to keep the elephants at bay without success," one villager, Sambhu Mahato, told reporters. The figure of 30 a week is not correct, but there are 200 humans killed in India every year. Half of that is from chance encounters in the forest - an elephant, not driven by hunger, will imediately attack human in forest, and try to kill him. They are more dangerous in the wild than lons tigers or bears, as lions tigers or bears kill out of hunger, and elephants do not - they know humans for their agression, and hate them, deliberately trying to kill them. Tame elephants kill out of revenge in circuces, and in musth in India. There are hundreds of deaths from deliberate attacks on villages by wild elephants, and they are always planned, motivated and deliberate violence, coming from the human elephant conflict. AristoDoga 16:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

this website doesnt tell me how long elephants tusk get and that was my question.

Art?

Wait they use art? is there any evidence of it? Any examples or articles on it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.70.254 (talk • contribs) 22:39, April 16, 2007

Elephants and the Savuti lions

Did y'all know about this image?. I assumed the lions were just checking out the carcass and added a comment, but today saw WP's stuff about elephant-killing lions. I couldn't find the pic or any more about it on the source site (tho there are related pics) or in the German Wikipedia article where it was posted. I'm trying not to extend my Wiki-streeeetch any further, so I'll leave this to someone keen, but looks worth following up and also asking photographers for additional details.

Enjoy! Lazy-bones aka JackyR | Talk 18:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Questions

Howdy folks! I'm new to this wikipedia thing, but I have a couple of questions about the elephant, if they have answers, perhaps it deserves a spot of the article pullup! Oh yeah!

• When can the unfriendly elephant bind its knowledge?
• How can the disastrous purge storm behind the ashcan?
• Why does the finished elephant flame the indicator ellyphant?

Many thankies, MorningRazor 15:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

No offence but your questions look like they have been generated by a computer generating gramatically correct but sematically meaningless sentences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.66.240.75 (talk) 01:44, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

• Can elephants get amnesia? Techboy UK 17:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Time to triple population

Colbert said that the population tripled in 6 months.... Which leads me to wonder how long would it take for the population to triple considering ideal cirucmstances...

Given the information in the article... The gestation period is 22months, the animals generally reproduce every 5 years and the animals reach sexual maturity in 9 years... Given that half of the current population is male and that future births would also be half male... How long would it take to triple the elephant population...

Currently my best estitmate puts it around 10 years. Please include graph.207.157.13.2 15:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.157.13.2 (talk) 15:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

The Gold Seal Campaign

For the sake of Wikipedia and controversial articles...

Gold Seal Campaign:

What do you think of this? The administrators of Wikipedia establish a Gold Seal campaign for certain articles. This “Gold Seal” will indicate for a given article it’s factuality and lack of vandalism. Basically it will show..

1-This page is properly cited.

2-This page has been verified.

This will be an important step for Wikipedia. It means students, high school included will be able to cite Wikipedia in their work. As of now many schools do not allow students to this.

As for editing an article, It will still be allowed yet a person can easily revert to the Gold Sealed, verified page on Wikipedia. This will be an amazing step for Wikipedia, though difficult, it will allow readers to know for sure what they are reading is true. It will surely improve Wikipedia’s image in the public sphere. Of course someone will have to organize this, but in then it will be sufficient use of labour.

It already exists: Wikipedia:Featured articles. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 02:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Colbert and protection

Is it really necessary to protect the page again? Titanium Dragon 04:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so either, but how about a volunteer to take out that miscreant Stephen Colbert!?! --leopheard 10:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

How about finding out his IP address and sending him a warning? Jeffrey.Kleykamp 12:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I was kinda kidding, but you could try, but it was most likely a researcher from his programme. Even so, you'd probably get a full segment re: your warning on the Colbert_Report! --leopheard 12:04, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Cool! I'll see what I can do. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 13:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

If you get a mention on the Colbert I'd a) love to see it & b) be very impressed! --leopheard 12:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Y'all probably should keep it protected. I just came by here to see if it was still protected to, so I could add something about how the elephant population had tripled. Yeah, big Colbert fan here.

Reference formatting

The reference citation for URLs is inconsistent. Would have fixed it but since only administrators are allowed, hope someone will improve the article. Shyamal 09:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

neurons in elephant brain

How much neurons is in elephant brain?

very plagiarized

pretty much the entire passage about elephants is plagiarized from another site, diagrams and all.

That is serious; I'd like to do something if I could. What site? What passage? Thanks, Iamunknown 19:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

A quick scan of a few selected passages shows only replication in wiki-mirrors. Any chance you could be more specific? Which passage? Which sites? Kuru ^talk 00:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The article is groooowing

Should we start talking about a split? Maybe keeping the biology here and moving everything else (deities, environmentalism, etc.) into sub articles. Bendž|Ť 08:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Evolution

Mastodon mitochondrial DNA has now been mapped from a tooth. "Judging by the number of differences between the various genomes, researchers believe that African elephants diverged from Asian elephants and mammoths about 7.6 million years ago. And the latter two species appear to have split about 6.7 million years ago." (see here). Worth noting.--Wetman 07:24, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Gestation

Which animal has the longest gestation? Because at the beggining of the article it's said: The elephant's gestation period is 22 months, the longest of any land animal.

And in the reproduction section: Their gestation (pregnancy) period lasts about 22 months (630–660 days), the longest gestation period of any mammal.

So...which is the no-mammal and no land animal that has a gestation time longer?

Perhaps they are the animals with a longer gestation. Could it be?--UlisesRey 19:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Elephant speed - it's confusing in the article

In Legs and Feet: "Although they start this "run" at only 8 km/h,[28] elephants may reach 25 km/h, all the while using the same gait. At this speed most other four-legged creatures are well into a gallop, even with leg length accounted for. Spring-like kinetics may explain the difference between the motion of these and other animals.[29]"

But in Ears: "Walking at a normal pace an elephant covers about 3 to 6 km/h (2 to 4 mph) but they can reach 40 km/h (24 mph) at full speed."

I guess the 25Km/h mark sounds more reasonable and has a reliable resource. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gustas (talk • contribs) 11:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Removing unsupported quotation

I am removing this paragraph from the article, because the info (the raping of rhinos) conveyed by Siebert's quotation is not supported by the original Pachyderm study mentioned as its source, and is disallowed by the study's author Stolow. (Arguably the word rape could be used in a more general sense of aggression and destruction, but that is not the most usual sense of the word.)

Charles Siebert reports in his New York Times article An Elephant Crackup? that:

Since the early 1990s, for example, young male elephants in Pilanesberg National Park and the Hluhluwe-Umfolozi Game Reserve in South Africa have been **raping and*** killing rhinoceroses; this abnormal behavior, according to a 2001 study in the journal Pachyderm, has been reported in ‘‘a number of reserves’’ in the region.

However, Rob Slotow, author of the cited article in Pachyderm, denies that any rape took place.DELETE TO HERE***

--HYC 11:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I recall reading this article. Since I don't think that elephants normally kill rhinos, it is interesting and is documented. Perhaps if the rape part, which I put between "**" and the refutation of it (the 2nd ph) were removed, the reference would still support the killing. As I recall this article was considering the breakdown of family units of elephants causing abnormal behavior, so that is relevent to the article.Bob98133 12:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Videos -- looking for feedback

How would the community respond to my adding the following external links: Short videos of elephants in their natural habitat: Taking a mud bath, Walking across the plains of Chobe National Park, Drinking from the banks of a river

The links lead to simple web pages with embedded flash videos and nothing else. I own these pages, my web site is stable and is not going away (it's much older then wikipedia itself). I researched contributing them as media to commons and including the media this way, (see my discussion with User talk: Robert Merkel), but it really seems to me that video in wikipedia/commons is just too immature. THe article he suggested as an example of video was Apollo 15 but in this case, the web browser links lead to some guys personal page on the commons (gmaxwell). Is that really better?

There is already precedent of a video link to some Ashram site that has a quicktime video of elephants.

Thanks. Isewell 15:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I've added a Media section using the 'right way' - first time doing this - what does everyone think? am I doing it right? I used multi video template not video template because video template is ugly - messes up formatting of article. If this is a good thing I can work on contributing more of my videos in ogg format. Isewell 21:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Appreciate the video idea, but I am not totally sure if it's appropriate to show a video where at the end they are revving their engine to harass the elephants and laugh at the same time. :/ Sancassania 20:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Ganapati.jpg

Image:Ganapati.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 13:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Mice

Hi. I am a norwegian middle school student who is writing a paper about these beautiful animals. Lots of great info here, but I always heard that elephants are afraid of mice, but can't seem to find any onformation about it here. Does anyone know if it is true, or is it just a myth? In advance, thank you :) Kind Regards, -Anja —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.109.234.247 (talk) 21:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

My God, if you were a 3 m, 500 kg animal with tree trunk size feet scared of something a few cm's tall would you run away from that thing or just crush it. 128.227.127.149 03:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

It has recently been discovered they are very frightened of bees; plenty of refs: [9] - MPF 16:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Mythbusters have just tested it and found it's Plausible - R'win (talk) 15:01, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Well bees, they sting, but that magical reference proves it, I just watched it on TV, they were definitely frightened by a little white mouse, I think this needs to be in the article. Revrant (talk) 17:53, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I like these photos we should add them. http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/PhotoGallery/AsianElephants/ --Make No Name (talk) 20:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Effect on the environment

Did PETA write this article? There is a lot about extinction and stuff when it should mostly be about elephants themselves. Also the Effect on the environment section, I was surprised to see no mention of elephants being a pest to the environment, such as stripping trees and vegetation bare, killing too many trees and such. I have seen entire documentaries about how elephants can wreak havoc on their own environments, yet this section seems to be more bothered with talking about ants that enjoy their poo. JayKeaton (talk) 13:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

And I've read discussions of how that so-called 'destructive' behavior of elephants helps keep savannas open by rooting out intrusive trees (hinted at in Elephant#Effect on the environment). Without that behavior, much of the present-day savanna country of Africa would look quite different. It does not help to use pejorative terms about the natural behavior of animals, and eliminating that behavior (usually by eliminating the responsible animals) could profoundly change the environment. -- Donald Albury 14:12, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Completely agree that judgmental terms about animal behaviour are not useful, and that this section is poor. I'd like to make more changes (was worse before I made some), but I'm frankly intimidated by the elephant-hugging tone and can't put my hands on the necess refs.But elephants (like man) have a huge impact on their environment: whether this is positive or negative depends on the POV of the observer - ant or antelope - and the circumstances. "Maintaining savanna" in one area is "deforestation" in another. In Hwange National Park I've walked through miles of bush destroyed by elephants (severely reducing grazing for other animals) to find mud-holes dug by elephants (providing water for those same animals). We need to describe this neutrally, not privilege elephants above other species, and certainly not worship them! JackyR | Talk 18:20, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

We do need to find some reliable sources on the effect of Elephants on their environment. My point is that environments are shaped by many factors, including the foraging behavior of animals of all sizes. In general, animals and the environments they live in have evolved together, and, barring major disturbances, are relatively stable. The role of elephants in maintaining certain African environments may be analogous to the role of periodic fires in maintaining many forests and grasslands; elimination of elephants would likely produce major changes that we might find either desirable or undesirable, but which would certainly be hard to predict. -- Donald Albury 19:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

The environment is in no way stable in southern Africa - where did you get that idea? Over the last, say, 80 years, human populations have increased massively (typically 3-fold since only 1960), putting pressure on sheer acreage for habitation and food production. Urban, farming, national and veterinarian barriers have changed southern Africa from wildlife areas with some humans to human-controlled areas with occasional, disconnected, wildlife zones. (Large mammals used to have migration ranges of 100s of miles across what are now multiple sovereign states.) Human interventions in terms of water reservoirs for human/farming use, hunting to protect farming (of big predators to protect cattle, of elephants to protect crops/water pipes) and creation of wildlife reserves have also significantly changed the environment (some info here). Oh, and we can't be sure, but climate change seems to be having an impact on rainfall patterns and hence crop/forage growth. For elephants, which have almost no predators other than man, the main cause of early mortality used to be calf death due to drought. The creation of wildlife reserves with pumped water has allowed the elephant population to rocket in some areas to well above that which can be supported by the plant life (water is pumped very locally to create artificial water holes: there's not enough to water the whole forage area) .

I'm not sure why you're talking about "elimination of elephants". Was anyone suggesting it? Management of elephant populations, however, is critical to preserving environment alongside humans or within the artificial limits of a wildlife reserve (however massive). JackyR | Talk 22:11, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Certainly elephants have been culled off (that is killed because their numbers are too many and they became a pest), and it is the same with many other lovable animals, such as the kangaroo and whale (small joke on the whale one, please don't reply to it =P). But overall I feel like this article came straight from PETA.org instead of britannica.com JayKeaton (talk) 01:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Disputed warning

Nothing serious really. But it needs to be sourced. There were a few bits that make me think it's not reliable - recognition of the African Pygmy Elephant as a distinct subspecies is not warranted, and that tribes etc were italicized. I'd trust it to be good pop-science grade, but that's not good enough. It might be good enough and thorough, but who can tell without sources? Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 22:27, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Your question on the status of the name Loxododonta fransennni has an answer (it was described in Schouteden, Henri (1914) "L’elephant nain du Lac Leopold II". Revue Zoologique Africaine) in Pygmy elephants of the congo, but since that is a forum we can't use it as a source. -- Donald Albury 03:01, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

GA Sweeps - On hold

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.

• There are three {{fact}} tags that need to be taken care of. I find the particular statements very interesting, but they won't be interesting if they can't be verified.
• There is a {{disputed-section}} tag under Family Classification. I do note the discussion of this above, but the issue needs to be resolved in order for this article to remain a GA. It doesn't sound too hard, just find some sources.
• The "Species" section is completely lacking in inline cites. They need to be added, especially for the likely-to-be-challenged material in the last paragraph.
• There's only one inline cite under "Asian Elephant."
• Inline cites are lacking under Trunk, Tusks, Teeth, Skin, Legs and feet, Ears, Diet, Senses, Social behavior, and Reproduction, calves, and calf rearing
• The "Effect on the environment" section should be converted into paragraph form and cited. (Willing to compromise on the paragraph idea but section definitely needs cites)
• Inline cites again are generally lacking under Humanity and elephants
• Formatting looks weird under "Religion and philosophy"
• I would suggest moving the entire "Elephants in culture" section into its own article (similar to Cultural depictions of lions and leaving a summary paragraph in this article rather than that long and cumbersome list.
• Again, inline cites are needed under Musth and Rogue Elephant

I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards,Corvus coronoides _talk 23:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

NOTE: I will be on vacation from December 21 to January 1. I'll check on the article again when I get back. Corvus coronoides _talk 22:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Delist

In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. While all the hard work that has gone into this article is appreciated, unfortunately, as of December 31,

2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAN. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GAR. Cheers, Corvus coronoides _talk 02:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:EVM carried on elephant.jpg

Image:EVM carried on elephant.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Epic win

Kruger National Park has suffered from elephant overcrowding, at the expense of other species of wildlife within the reserve. [...] Without action, it is predicted that the elephant population in Kruger National Park will triple to 34,000 by 2020.40

The source actually says that, and appears to be relevant. I do wonder, though, if somebody added it with you-know-who in mind. The whole section needs a broader view of elephant national park issues though, right now it seems to be dealing only with South Africa. <eleland/talkedits> 17:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Fact bogus!

I am no expert, but who cares what is happening in that one particular park? Should we comment on all national park changes in elephant population. Honestly, I think it is irrelevant to the article and is a SCB reference point.— Preceding unsigned comment added by JordanCrawford (talk • contribs) -- Donald Albury 12:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Steve Hirano.jpg

Image:Steve Hirano.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

why is this LOCKED?

can someone answer me that question? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.238.90.15 (talk) 04:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Because of the constant stream of anonymous IP vandals, many of whom don't yet realize that that stupid Steve Colbert joke got so old too quickly.--Mr Fink (talk) 04:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)