Talk:Korean History Compilation Committee

Korean: Start; Hanja: high; RR: history This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}.

5000 years of histoy?

What do you mean "The main objective of this Agent was to reduce the territory of ancient Korean states into the Korean Peninula, and describe Gojoseon's history as myth [1]."

It is widely known Dangun is a myth.

Do you really think he was born out of a bear?

Samguk Yusa was written and compiled folklores and legends at the end of the 13th century. That is the earliest extant record of the Dangun legend. And there is no mention of actual Gojoseon in any older Chinese documents.

I know Korean schools still teach Gojoseon as historical fact. Patrotism is ok, BUT,

History and legend are two different thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enjoyfuga (talk • contribs)

Chinese 25 history books are too recent to describe the establishment of Gojoseon or Dangun. They only describe destruction of Gojoseon. Book_of_Later_Han and Shiji describe the destruction of Gojoseon. In addition, Gyuwon Sahwa says that Dangun is the son of Hwanung and a woman in a "bear tribe."

So, general description of Gojoseon can be found in a very old document written before Shiji was written such as 管子, 山海經 and 鴻史 written by 孔子順. In addition, you can find the establishment of Gojoseon in 資治通鑑外紀 --Hairwizard91 16:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Samguk Yusa

I'm confused by the claim that the Samguk Yusa was distorted. For one thing, the form "昔有桓国" ("there was a country called Hwan-guk") looks Japanese to me ... shouldn't it be "昔有桓國"? Also, if "Hwanin" is a colonialist distortion, why do the versions of the Samguk Yusa published today in Korea still follow this? The Kim Won-jung Korean translation, for instance, mentions the "Hwan-guk" theory only in a footnote, which suggests that "Hwanin" is still accepted as canonical. There's clearly some basis for this claim, but it needs more detailed explanation and referencing. -- Visviva 04:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

国 and 國 is same character; the former is simplified character, and the latter is original character. 国 is not Japanese. Samguk Yusa has several version, and Kim translated the distorted version(동경제대본). If you can, find and read the version of Samguk Yusa (Jeong deok bon)"삼국유사 정덕본" . You can find the fabrication of the Samguk Yusa in the tertiary source such as Daum encyclopedia[1]Is this answer to you question? --Hairwizard91 16:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, that is somewhat illuminating. I haven't yet looked into this in detail, but it seems strange that Daum also has an article about Hwanin ([2]), an article which doesn't mention the alleged fabrication at all. That seems, at the very least, unusual. Also the Pyeonsuhoe article you cite does mention a disagreement over Hwanin vs. Hwanguk, but doesn't state clearly that Hwanin was a fabrication. Further, if the Jeongdeokbon is the definitive version of the Samguk Yusa, why would a modern translator follow a different version? Is there a particular reason to prefer the Jeongdeokbon to other editions of the Samguk Yusa? If so, why do so many Korean sources not follow the Jeongdeokbon? -- Visviva 00:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is actually interesting. There are more Korean encyclopedia articles about this agency [3] [4] and another one on Hwanin [5]. Two more sources, though a bit less credible [6] [7] Goguryeo 01:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The problematic text will be removed from this article and listed below....--Endroit 19: 25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Fabrication of Samguk Yusa

To hide the history before the three kingdoms of Korea, the Agent fabricated the original history book such as Samguk Yusa. The Samguk Yusa says that there was a state called Hwanguk in very ancient time'(昔有桓国). However, the Agent fabricated the Samguk Yusa such that there was a person called Hwanin(昔有桓因) to make the ancient Korean history as myth (See Figures)^[1].

Thus, the three states history of Hwanguk by Hwanin, Shinshi by Hwanung and Gojoseon by Dangun is reduced as the mythical state of Gojoseon by Dangun, who was the son of Hwanung and the grandson of Hwanin.

This is apparent fabrication and/or falsification by User:Hairwizard91

The above section in the article inserted by Hairwizard91, is based on a recently fabricated (post 1946) picture shown here.

Simplified Chinese characters (including 国) was in use only since 1956. Japanese Shinjitai characters (including 国) was in use only since 1946. 国 was never in use until 1946. That would make the left-hand-side of the image a recent (post 1946) forgery.

Hairwizard91, I believe you are in violation of WP:POINT for uploading a misleading/unencyclopedic image (as you have done before) and providing false details. Can Hairwizard91 or someone else give a valid explanation for this?--Endroit 19:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You dont know the Chinese character. 国 is found in very old document. I did not mention the Chinese simplified character in 20th century. The fabrication of Samguk Yusa is found in korean britanica encyclopedia.

They are all CITED article. This is not my point of view. You cannot remove them. You must discuss first!!--Hairwizard91 20:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your image appears to be fabricated. Explain.--Endroit 20:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No. it is just photocopy of two version. The left one is original in Seoul nation university, and the right one is version by Japan. --Hairwizard91 21:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So are you admitting that one is a photocopy of the other? After 1960? (They didn't have copiers back then, Hairwizard91).--Endroit 21:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LOL What are you saying ?? Those are current photocopy of old books--Hairwizard91 22:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just trying to clarify what YOU put forward in this article. OK, then. So is it 囯 (王 inside a box) rather than 国 now, or what?--Endroit 22:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

国 is used in the article because korean britanica describes the fabricated script is 国 based on the no original research.--Hairwizard91 22:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your cited source says 國, which is a Traditional Chinese character. If we take your source (Korea Britannica) for face value, your image would be a fabrication because it looks like either a 国 or a 囯, but definitely not 國.--Endroit 22:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I see what you are saying. Korean document officially use 國 when refering to "state." --Hairwizard91 22:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So the image looks like a 囯, and not 国. Why don't you at least correct that?--Endroit 22:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Which do you prefer to 囯, 国 or 國. They have all same meaning--Hairwizard91 22:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming the image is for real (I'm not say whether it is or not), go by what the image says, 囯.--Endroit 22:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like this has already been changed, but the character on the bottom of the circle on the left looks like a 囯 to me too. Jecowa 02:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No original research

If you have an objection about this article, please discuss based on the literature. You seems to do original research --Hairwizard91 22:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To avoid original research, I've added some Korean language references. I can't imagine there are any solid English sources for this, and I don't know Japanese. But at least the Korean ones are from pretty reputable encyclopedias available at the major Korean portals. You can delete the last two links to Korean media if you want. I just added them for background information, not as authority for controversial claims. Goguryeo 18:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

//I can't imagine there are any solid English sources for this,//

--> Do you know why? Most of scholar except few of them follows the same history edited by Joseonsa Pyeonsuhoe. There is no new historical findings by the current school historians. They have just republished the same history by the Joseonsa Pyeonsuhoe. For example, if you read Shiji(사기) chapter of Joseon(조선열전), the capital city of Wiman joseon is Heomdok(험독). The comment of Shiji(it may be Jiphae집해集解) says that Heomdok is located at Liaoning, and Nangnang is also located near Heomdok. But the current school historian repeat the theory by Joseonsa Pyeonsuhoe and says Heomdok is Pyongyang. --Hairwizard91 20:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some people would interpret that as a consensus of Korean historians that the Pyeonsuhoe was on the right track in this case. -- Visviva 14:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The pronunciation of 朝鮮史編修会 in Japanese should added.

As it was established by the Japanese government of Royal edict.--JSH-alive ^{talk to me}_{see my works}^{mail to me} 09:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Manacpowers's repeated revert

Manacpowers is repeatedly reverting this article saying that there's no source. Although s/he insists on information source, s/he keeps removing {{fact}}. What s/he says and what s/he does are inconsequent. S/he even removed the infobox I added without explaining why. I have no idea why s/he removed the infobox of the Japanese name.

The society was established by Governor-General of Korea without doubt. The Japanese wikipedia and Korean wikipedia also say the same thing.

朝鮮史編修会（ちょうせんしへんしゅうかい）は朝鮮総督府が1925年6月、勅令第218号により交付した「朝鮮史編修会官制」によって作られた朝鮮総督府総督が直轄する機関。

조선사편수회(朝鮮史編修會)는 조선총독부가 1925년 6월 칙령 제218호로 공포한 ‘조선사편수회관제’(朝鮮史編修會官制)에 따라 만들어진 조선총독부 총독이 직할하는 기관.

The former explanation "[The society] was established in June 1925 by the Japanese government of Royal edict" is not accurate.

Its duty was to compile Korean history and collect historical documents on Korea. I added a source VISTA-PS (although Manacpowers keeps saying there's no source for some reason).

The society may have legitimated Japan's 1910 annexation of Korea. But was this its duty? Was the society really estblished "in order to" legitimate Japanese occupation of Korea? Manacpowers has to show evidence that the society was established "in order to" legitimate Japanese occupation of Korea. S/he says I have "no source. no discussion" although s/he never shows any source and even ignores my messages on her/his talk page. I do not understand why s/he can say "no source, no discussion" although s/he never even replys to me.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 14:28, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As for the sentence to which I added {{fact}}.

"The first regulation for Korean history compilation did not contain the history of Gojoseon and succeeding several states after Gojoseon's destruction to validate their colonization because Japanese history (not pre-history) does not exist before 100 CE."

I am not an expert, so I do not know how the society dealt with Gojoseon. But I doubt the sentence above. The Society did not contain the history of Gojoseon "in order to validate their colonization"? "Because Japanese history does not exist before 100 CE"? Are there any sources for this claim?

This sentence was written by Hairwizard91, who has been blocked indefinitely, and seems to me only like his interpretation.

This is why I added {{fact}} to the sentence. I believe the sentence was only Hairwizard91's interpretation and I wish I could remove it. I do not understand at all why Manacpowers keeps removing {{fact}}. It seems to me that what Manacpowers really conserns is not whether the article has source or not, but whether the article is favourable to Korea or not.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 15:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

oh, not that is the original research. that ageny was a work for "compile and editing". any relaible academic source? even your favored Japanese source does not say it. Manacpowers (talk) 03:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What are you saying? "even your favored Japanese source does not say it." I don't understand you at all. What did you read?

大正１４年６月、朝鮮総督府は朝鮮史の編纂と朝鮮関係史料の収集を目的として朝鮮史編修会を設置した。

(In June, the 14th year of Taisho (1925), the Governor-General of Korea established the Chosenshi Henshukai in order to compile Korean history and collect historical documents on Korea.)--Michael Friedrich (talk) 07:11, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Removing POV

This article is not written from a neutral point of view (NPOV). I have just removed one of them.

The society fabricated the Gwanggaeto Stele to validate the ancient colonization of South Korean peninsula by Japan. For more detail of fabrication of the stele, see Gwanggaeto Stele#Debate over an ancient message.

I read Gwanggaeto Stele#Debate over an ancient message. It sure says "he[Lee Jin-hui] claimed the stele was intentionally damaged by the Japanese Army in 1900s to justify the Japanese invasion of Korea in 20th century." But it also says that "these allegation was generally discredited by Chinese and Japanese" and that "he[Xu Jianxin of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences] also concluded that there was no evidence Japanese had damaged any of the stele characters" and that "Today, most Chinese and Japanese scholars controvert the Conspiracy theories, based on the study of the stele itself and advocate Japanese intervention in the era" and that "In the project of writing a common history textbook, Kim Tae-sik of Hongik University (Korea) and Kosaku Hamada of Kyushu University (Japan) reported his interpretation of the Gwanggaeto Stele text, neither of them adopting Lee's theory in their interpretations."

As you can see, the Conspiracy theory is disputed and is not supported by many historians. Furthermore, there's no word "朝鮮史編修会" in Gwanggaeto Stele#Debate over an ancient message. Even if Japan had damaged the stele, it would not mean the society did it. This is why I removed the sentence.

Writing something disputed and not supported by many historians as a fact. This article seems full of POV.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 15:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

編修 means

編修 means "edit" or "compile" in Korea.[8]

in Korea, 編修 means most commony used as "edit.[9]

for example,

편수관(編修官) an editorial officer;an (official) editor
편수원(編修員) the editorial staff member

Therefore, it can be trans as a "edit". 編修 is not a mean "compile" only. do not mistake.Manacpowers (talk) 02:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"會" can be trans as a "Agency, Club, Society". This is a Korean relation topic. this word definition obeyed korean dictionary definition. [10]

Korean dictionaris have nothing to do with the article name because the society was established by Japan. In Japanese, 編修 is different from 編集. 編修 is only used for history. History is not something to edit, but something to compile. To use the word "edit" is purely Korean POV.

In Japanese, 会 means society, not agancy. It may be possible to translate 会 as club, though.

Repeat! Korean dictionaries have nothing to do with the article name!

If you do not agree with me (I don't think you do), I suggest that we should not translate the name into English and use "Chosenshi Henshukai" instead.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 07:06, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

this is a history of Korea. and this club made in Korea, and memebers were Korean chinilpa. Japanese side POV is completely irreravant. Manacpowers (talk) 09:52, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

well, This is Japanese dictionary. http://www.sanseido.net/User/Dic/Index.aspx?TWords=%E7%B7%A8%E4%BF%AE&st=0&DailyJJ=checkbox 編修 means "edit"

even Chinese dictionary, 編修 means "edit".[11]

官名。宋代凡修前朝国史、实录，会要等，均随时置编修官，枢密院也设有编修官，负责编纂记述。明、清属翰林院，职位次于修撰，与修撰、检讨同称为史官慎行、吴锡麒、蒋士铨、翁方纲等，皆曾授编修之任。明、清翰林院编修以一甲二三名进士及庶吉士留馆者担任，无实职。参阅《历代职官表.翰林院》。

編[12]

1.to weave; to braid

2.to arrange

3.to edit

4.to fabricate

修[13]

1.to mend; to repair

2.to build

3.to embellish

4.to study

5.to study to earn (college credits)

6.to trim; to prune

編修 is not only means "Compilation" don't make dictionary by your own convenience. Manacpowers (talk) 09:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Point.

1. This is Korean club. not Japanese. Japanese dictionary definition is "irreravant". 2. Korean, Chinese, Japanese dictionary definition is not says, 編修 is only means "Compilation" it is more close to "edit".Manacpowers (talk) 10:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC) 3. Last, even Japan goverment ordered it. This is a History of Korea, Not Japan. cleary, 조선사편수회 "edited" history of korea. not compile. in your country, "Distorting", "Fabrication", "Burning", means are compile? i think edited is not a suitable word. actually, it was a "fabrication club". Manacpowers (talk) 10:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What are you saying? What you're saying makes no sense at all.

As I said, the society was established by Japan during Japanese occupation. It is Japanese history too!! Not only Korean. The name 朝鮮史編修会 is in Japanese without doubt. I do not understand at all why you say the name is in Korean. Besides, Chinese is completely irrelavent.

The Japanese dictionary you cited does not say 編修 is "to edit"[14]. It says "書物にまとめ上げること". Japanese has another word 編集 for sure[15]. 編修 is only used for history.

I did not make a dictonary by my own convenience. I cited Kojien, Japan's one of the most famous dictionary. It says "1. 書籍を編みととのえること。「国史を～する」 2. 中国で、国史の編纂に従事した官。"

I also looked the word up in 明鏡国語辞典, Japan's another famous dictionary. It says "いろいろな資料を集めて整理し、一つの書物にまとめること。編纂。「国史を～する」"

Besides, even if 編修 had the meaning of editing, why do you choose edit, instead of compile? History is not something to edit, but something to compile. Choosing the word edit is without doubt a Korean POV.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 10:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your comment above is full of Korean POV! ""Distorting", "Fabrication", "Burning", means are compile?" What are you saying!? You never showed any source that shows the society did those things. If it did those things, it does not have anything to do with the name itself. "i think edited is not a suitable word. actually, it was a "fabrication club"." You said "i think"! It proves that choosing the word "edit" is your POV. It is your evaluation of history.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 10:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. nonsense. It is not a Japanese hisrory. hello, India occupied by UK before 1945. However, India history belong to UK?
2. even if ordered by Japanese goverment. it orginized by Korean chinilpa. also Korean think "編集" word is "edit".OK? this club orgized by Korean, and Korea think "編集" word is "edit".
3. Korea, China, Japanese dictionary do not says, 編集 is compile only. i also prove by various source. but you can't prove by definition by credible dictionary.Manacpowers (talk) 10:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is you who talks nonsense. It is also Japanese history. Why isn't it Japanese history although it was established and run by Japan? History of India belongs to India, but history of Britain's occupation of India is also a part of history of UK too.

You still do not understand the difference between 編集 and 編修. 編集 is to edit. But 編修 is to compile. History is not something to edit, but to compile as I said above. How many times do I have to explain it? I cited Kojien too. What you are saying makes absolutely no sense at all. You know nothing about Japanese. Choosing the word "edit" is your POV.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 10:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Move

There's someone who thinks 朝鮮歴編修會 is in Korean for some reason, even though it was established by Japan without doubt. He insists on using the word "edit" instead of "compile", which I do not understand at all. 編修 in Japanese means to compile. Even if it had the meaning of editing, history is not something to edit, but something to compile. So, 朝鮮史編修会 is litterally "Society for Compilation of Korean History" without doubt.

But I don't think he would never agree with me even though he seems to know nothing about Japanese. He nor I have the rights to translate the name into English. So, I suggest that the article be moved to Chōsenshi Henshūkai. Any translation may cause disputes and edit war.--Michael Friedrich (talk) 10:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. nonsense. It is not a Japanese hisrory. hello, India occupied by UK before 1945. However, India history belong to UK? 2. even if ordered by Japanese goverment. it orginized by Korean chinilpa. also Korean think "編集" word is "edit".OK? this club orgized by Korean, and Korea think "編集" word is "edit". 3. Korea, China, Japanese dictionary do not says, 編集 is compile only. i also prove by various source. but you can't prove by definition by credible dictionary

"Chōsenshi Henshūkai" is not a suitable word. too complex. also this history is korean. but why use Japanese pronunciation? nonsense. also, any foreigner can type "ū" or "ō" easily? anyway, don't move article without any justifiable reason or without any consensus. Manacpowers (talk) 10:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

^ Daum Encylopedia. Retreived from [16]

[1] Daum Encylopedia. Retreived from [16]

[1]