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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by J.smith (talk | contribs) at 20:25, 31 December 2006 (→‎Outside view by [[User:Shimeru|Shimeru]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington

Statement of the dispute

Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has misused the blocking policy. This administrator has also abused the deletion tools and status of administrator to close WP:AFD discussion with a decision that was consistently counter to consensus. Numerous instances of incivility towards several other editors.

Description

Nick blocked User:Malber without notice while he was personally involved in a dispute with Malber re RfA questions; Nick blocked User:Kuntan for his username without discussion despite that the status of the username as being offensive is in dispute.

Administrator has displayed numerous instances of prematurely and against consensus closing deletion debates. Consistent assumption of bad faith against deletion discussion participants. Consistent incivil attitude when questioned about administrative actions.

Evidence of disputed behaviors

  • Deletion policy
  • Civility policy
    • Incivility towards fellow administrator.[12]
    • Misappropriation of policy talk page to perform an incivil RfC/character assasination against an editor.[13]
    • Posting offensive image on talk page: [14]

Powers misused

    • Blocking tools, deletion tools, using status as administrator to push personal opinion and position in deletion debates.

Applicable policies

  1. WP:BLOCK
  2. WP:DELETE
  3. WP:CIVIL

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(re Malber block: Amarkov's comments, discussion at Nick's talkpage, involving Malber, Cindery, and Newyorkbrad: [15] Nick's "apology" a PA on Malber. Re Kuntan, SA Jordan's comments on Nick's talkpage: [16],the username RFC, and discussion at Malber's talkpage: [17])

NOTE: Kuntan should be unblocked for the purposes of participation in dispute resoluation/this RfC, and Dakshayni should also be freely allowed to participate. Cindery 17:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was blocked which was eventually overturned. I requested an apology from the administrator, however NHN has refused to offer one. I can let the block go, I can even forgive the incivil actions toward me and his constant labeling of every edit I make as "disruptive," but NHN's actions in AfD debates are what trouble me the most. There have been numerous instances where AfD discussion participants have kindly asked NHN for an explanation and he has responded in a less than civil manner. The following are diffs from his own and others' talk page.

[18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] I was hesitant to participate in this RfC because I foresee NHN attempting to bring my prior mistakes and bad decisions into the discussion. I respectfully request that if he does that anyone reviewing this will disregard his attempt at the Chewbacca defense and stick to the issues at hand. I am not seeking any redress of NHN's actions against me, but I feel that some comment and/or action should be taken on NHN's abuse of the administrative tools with regards to deletion and the "status" of being an administrator and the issues of civility when dealing with the community. —Malber (talk • contribs) 05:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

  1. —Malber (talk • contribs) 05:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. User:Cindery {talk contribs}05:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 10:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. – SAJordan talkcontribs 20:28, 29 Dec 2006 (UTC). — whose further comments were moved from this page.

Outside view by User:Dakshaaayani

Outside view from Dakshaaayani who cannot edit here because they are indefinitely blocked as a sockpuppet of Kuntan by User:Sir_Nicholas_de_Mimsy-Porpington: [25] (Link added here by User:Cindery)

  • Please note that acting as a proxy for a community banned user or sockpuppets thereof is considered disruptive and is strongly disapproved of. Please do not bring this here unless and until you have shown at least some informed dissent from the view that this is a sock of a community banned troll, and preferably a RFCU which establishes that this is not a sock. Guy (Help!) 20:06, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • The user's talk page was protected so that he could not even appeal the decision under his own ID. He was given no hearing, no chance to defend himself. Did you see an RFCU to establish that he was a sock? Did you require proof of his guilt? Yet here you're requiring that he prove his innocence, when he can't post anywhere under his own ID, and declaring anyone else who might speak on his behalf could also be declared "disruptive" (a blockable offense), which closes off his last possible avenue of defense. Is that how you'd want to be treated? – SAJordan talkcontribs 21:57, 29 Dec 2006 (UTC).
    • Q (Parker Peters): Should a "suspected sockpuppet" (new username) of a username block be blocked for being a sockpuppet?
      A (David Gerard): Generally not, I'd say.         (excerpted)
      (See also Parker Peters's reply and "Quitting Wikipedia" email.) – SAJordan talkcontribs 15:04, 30 Dec 2006 (UTC).
  • It was a good faith edit, and I believe that the documentation provided above by SA Jordan is "informed dissent" that there's something awry re the block of Kuntan, and therefore blocks of anyone labelled as his "sockpuppet." Please note also the discussion on Dmcdevit's talkpage regarding request that Kuntan and Dakshaaayani should be unblocked in order to participate in dispute resolution. If I am not mistaken, there is precedent even for banned editors to participate in dispute resolution. Neither Kuntan nor Dakshaaayani were even banned.
Thanks,
Cindery 21:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, there is nothing "awry" about Kuntan's block. See below. Guy (Help!) 12:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's definitely something awry with the block of Kuntan--see the talkpage of this RfC. Cindery 00:09, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Samir

Kuntan is a troll and Nick's username block was entirely appropriate. His user name, among other meanings, references child molestation in Malayalam. He edited the now-deleted article Kuntayithote early in his editorial career with the following: "Kuntan in Malayalam is a term for a boy or young man kept by older man for sodomy." He vandalized the pages of editors who disagreed with him: [26]. He made tendentious edits and then mocked the users who he disagreed with: [27]. He trolled AfD's and admittedly made hoax articles based on the indecent interpretation of his username: [28]. Kuntan has since appeared in a series of sockpuppets that have trolled user pages, ANI, RfA, and other venues.
The username block is entirely apt and I strongly question the integrity of any RfC that is asking for an administrator to comment on the blocking of a clearcut troll -- Samir धर्म 10:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary:
  1. Sam Blanning(talk) 12:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Duja► 12:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I just saw the deleted article and the very first edit to that article by Kuntan clearly states the intended meaning of Kuntan. And judging from his sockpuppet army, he seems a clear troll — Lost(talk) 13:35, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Srikeit 13:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. This block is so obviously warranted, it makes it clear Malber is just here because he's mad, not because there's much of a problem. It's also interesting that Nick's incivility, while it could/should be improved, is far less severe than Malber's. Yet another case of trying to point out someone else's problems without having one's own house in order. - Taxman Talk 13:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. An admitted troll, who's name I well remember. I tagged the article in the first place, and ended up wasting a lot of time with his games. --ArmadilloFromHellGateBridge 13:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Is blocking trolls controversial now?Bakaman 17:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Does an RfC mean anything which might possibly be construed as controversial must be cited as abuse? -Amarkov blahedits 17:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Nick was entirely justified in blocking Malber, whats more, there is evidence to suggest Malber has stalked Nick. अमेय आर्यन DaBrood© 17:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. As Taxman has said, Malber is just here because he is mad at Sir Nick. Kuntan was and is a troll. He has caused a lot of disruption in the beginning with his inappropriate username and now with his sockpuppets. - Aksi_great (talk) 19:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Yes, Kuntan's was a righteous block. Guy (Help!) 19:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  12. You're making a big thing of this whole situation. Malber's block may have been controversial, and may have been unjustified, but that's no reason to desysop an admin. Try living in our shoes to see what we deal with on a daily basis. Nishkid64 01:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  13. I would have blocked him if I was involved. GizzaChat © 06:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Yawn. I have explained it to Malber and Jordan two or three times now and they never replied to that. I can't be bothered again. Tintin (talk) 07:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Troll killer--D-Boy 09:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Umm, this is obviously a good block. I agree with Taxman. The plea to not look at the context provided by Malber's past makes it obvious.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 10:04, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  17. I fully support the block against Kuntan - For a start, it's very similar to the English word "Cunt" so it's inappropriate from a purely English standpoint, the translation is fully worse. If we had a user called "Child molester" or whatever, there would be no question at all of blocking. Malber has also indulged in a little stalking of Sir Nicholas, with the evidence available for all to see on my talk page, and whilst his block by Sir Nicholas wasn't helpful, and had it been for say 4 hours, it would have been a very sensible option for a violation of WP:POINT. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 13:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Terence Ong 13:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Citing this block brings the whole procedure into disrepute. A frivolous complaint in a frivolous RFC. Bishonen | talk 13:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC).[reply]
  20. Meaningless RFC. The block is fully justified. A troll with an obscene username. If you think the username was innocent, check the deleted versions of his userpage.--thunderboltz(Deepu) 14:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  21. Freedom skies| talk  16:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  22. Fully support the block of this user Gwernol 21:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  23. This block looks entirely justified. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 22:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  24. Fully support the block. The fact that the user was blocked by another Admin proves that Sir Nick was not spiteful or abusing his power. Orane (talk • cont.) 03:54, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  25. Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 09:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Malber (talk · contribs)

I did not write the material regarding Kuntan. That was submitted by User:Cindery. I don't know enough about the issue to endorse her comments, however I feel that NHN's handing of the fallout from the block (particularly the posting of the offensive image on a talk page) was less than civil. If an editor who was less popular in IRC did that he would have gained an immediate 48 hour block.

I think there should be concern over the fact that the list of endorsers of this statment looks very similar to the list of participants on #wikipedia-in. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Malber, please assume good faith. Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 09:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think stating the obvious is an assumption of bad faith. Also, not one of these people has made a case--citing any actions of Kuntan/Kundan after Sundown--that he did anything on-wiki worthy of a block. Dakshaaayni has said that Nick suspects someone of making an off-wiki "attack page." I suspect that that is the reason for the block. I actually don't know what policy pertains to off-wiki actions, if any, but WP:PI should be observed, and clearly, process is blatantly not being followed here. There is no viable case against Kuntan for username, and I don't see 1) a viable case against him for "trolling" 2) worse, anyone even making that argument --just echoing the personal attack word "troll." If there's an case against him for something off-wiki, then make that case. Unjustified out-of-process blocks alienate regular editors--those who write 80% of Wiki articles. Admins should be concerned with what is good for Wikipedia--retaining that 80%--and not narrowly focused instead on whatever personal benefit they may derive from voting for each other--I think it makes Wikipedia look stupid. As in, junior-high stupid. Sorry, but that is my honest view (and I am not alone in holding it). Cindery 18:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

SAJordan's comments moved from main page

Click above link to see all. Or see replies to Samir, Armadillo, Bakaman, Aksi_great, Guy, Tintin, and Heligoland.

comments from Cindery: I can see the diffs provided above by Samir now, and they do not wow me with Kuntan's "terribel wrongdoing"--the "vandalism" charge against him was a message he posted which said "I feel like doing a little bit of vandalism. I hope you won't mind the extra work."---this appears extremely mild, humorous, and could even be interpreted as friendly. Am I missing something? The second charge against him looks like it involves very mild incivility on his part--was there a warning for that? (I can't see his talkpage.) I don't see multiple hoax articles--I see only one, a very brief hoax, and the purpose seems to have been humor, not malice. (Was there nontheless a warning for that?) Regarding the name, again, Kuntan pointed out that it had multiple meanings, and then changed his name, and objected to being called by his prior name--I still do not get why he was blocked for his name after he changed it (and while it had multiple meanings)? Again, he was not the subject of a "community ban"--he was indefinitely blocked for his username until a few days ago, when he was blocked as a"troll." I do not see evidence that anything he did added up to "being a troll." It looks like he made many useful contributions, and that there could have been grounds for warnings to him re: one instance of incivility and perhaps keeping his sense of humor in check (although, personally, I do not object to humor.) "Trolling" implies that he was trying to upset people with the hoax article/his message to Deepu--it looks to me like he was trying to make people laugh, not upset them. "Trolling" also implies that he did a *lot* of trying to upset people--I see no evidence of that. Based on what I know, it looks like a case wasn't brought against him on ANI or RfC because there was no case to bring. Again, am I missing something? Please point out, if so. Cindery 01:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Any user threatening to vandalise Wikipedia is liable to an automatic ban, the length of which is at the discretion of the blocking admin, but it's not unusual for vandalism only accounts to be blocked indefinitely. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1) it wasn't a vandalism-only account, or ever accused of being one (have you looked at his contribution history?) 2. his "vandalism" was to post a message stating "I hope you won't mind a little vandalism"--it wasn't vandalism, it was clearly a joke. Cindery 01:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No admin in their right mind is going to allow an account threatening vandalism to go unchecked. Joking about vandalism is unwise, it's as simple as that. Doing some research, there is additional evidence from the IRC channels which if presented which totally and utterly back up the block of the account. As you may be aware, I can't really say any more though. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 01:43, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, secret evidence which neither the defendant nor the jury can examine or contest, merely be told that it's there. That's the standard these days, isn't it? Some places, anyway. Like Guantanamo.
By the way, please stop posting with that Inappropriate Username "Heligoland", as you have been notified of its WP:USERNAME violations here and here. – SAJordan talkcontribs 02:47, 31 Dec 2006 (UTC).

Your justifications seem to be getting increasingly more and more far-fetched--a serious "vandalism" threat would be reported on ANI/there would be a warning. Precedent was just established re IRC and blocks: the info must be described in order to justify a block. Cindery 02:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Samuel Blanning

Of the disputed AfD closings:

So out of 8 that supposedly justify an RfC, 2 were not even nominated (so we can assume there is no case against the closing), 1 is heading for an endorsement, 1 was split but without particular disapproval against the closing, 1 is heading the same way. I do not believe the remaining 3 constitute a serious problem with Nicholas' AfD closing, although there were a few errors that I'm sure he will learn from. (That does not include the first closing in the list, incidentally). He appears to have a much better grasp of AfD closing than the RfC requester, who refers to AfD here as a vote, which it is not, and claims in all all but one of the AfDs listed that Nicholas was at fault because he closed against the numbers.

Users who endorse this summary:
  1. Duja► 12:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Also, I can't see anything positive that will come of this, so can we just get back to editing articles? Taxman Talk 13:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. — Lost(talk) 13:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. I think the Scene (subculture) AFD is an example of good judgement. All of the keep !votes were basically "I like it" or "it does exist!" 2 or 3 questionable AFD closers makes for bad support of "admin abuse." ---J.S (T/C) 17:02, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Bakaman 17:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Admins make some mistakes, that's why we have a process to review AfDs. -Amarkov blahedits 17:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Aksi_great (talk) 19:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. RfC requester fundamentally misunderstands the nature of AfD closure and compounds it by confusing honest (and reversible) mistakes made in good faith with abuse of powers. Baseless claim. Guy (Help!) 20:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Samir धर्म 01:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Jkelly 02:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. GizzaChat © 06:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  12. This is another invented fault based on poor understanding of how things work, just as the requester was unable to properly request an RfC. —WAvegetarian•(talk) 10:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Sir Nick and I don't see eye to eye on some of these, but I don't see any abuse. DRV works. Eluchil404 12:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Srikeit 13:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Bishonen | talk 14:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC).[reply]
  16. Freedom skies| talk  16:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Gwernol 21:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Mistakes made in good faith != admin abuse. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 22:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Indeed. Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 09:33, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  20. Terence Ong 18:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

  • A large number of overturned AFD decisions does seem to indicate that the Admin should show more caution. --Barberio 18:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by weirdoactor

I will comment on one of the disputed AfD closings; W00t, and on the claims of incivility.

I filed the DRV for W00t. Do I think Nick acted maliciously here? No. Do I think he reviewed the AfD in full before acting? I can’t say, but I will assume good faith. I will say that the “Delete” votes were weak, with only a few citing actual policy. I thought it was odd that the history was deleted; but again, I don’t think Nick acted maliciously here. My guess would be user error; I see absolutely no any reason that Nick would have for intentionally deleting the W00t history.

One odd thing; shortly after I posted on Nick’s talk page about the deletion, I received a strange message from Daakshayani, a user with whom I had no contact previously. I find it interesting that a “non-sock puppet” would try and draw me into a discussion of whether of not to delete the categories of their alleged puppet master. Pretty much fails the smell test, in my humble opinion.

Is Nick uncivil? No. He can occasionally be terse, or perhaps impatient, but I don't find him to be uncivil. If being terse or impatient were punishable as incivility, I myself would be guilty on more occasions than I would care to recall, as would many, many users. Should admins be held to a higher standard of civility? Absolutely not. Possessing the mop does not give one patience above and beyond that of mortal editors; and admins have to deal with more…let’s say “asininity” than your average user, and in my opinion can be forgiven if they are snippy from time to time. I’d say from my own interactions with Nick, and those I’ve observed that he is, to quote the great Patrick Swayze, “Nice until it’s time to not be nice”.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. -- weirdoactor t|c 18:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Calling it incivility worthy of an RFC is a bit of a stretch. Don't interpret this to mean that being nicer wouldn't be good. -Amarkov blahedits 21:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I agree the AFD debates were not closed in bad faith, and there is only so much patience one can have. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 22:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users who mostly endorse this summary:

  1. I disagree only with the last part. I think we would be better served by the words of Theodore Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick." ---J.S (T/C) 20:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not entirely outside view by Argyriou

I supported bringing at RfC against User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington, but I do not agree with all the grounds listed in the RfC as it was brought. I also worry that many of the people who will be viewing this RfC will be predisposed to dismiss arguments by the people bringing it, due to tangles they've had with administrators in the past, and that this case will not receive a fair hearing.

In my view, the primary problem with Sir Nicholas is that he does not have the temperament to be an administrator. He consistently confuses his opinions for Wikipedia policy or for community consensus, and becomes dismissive or hostile when called on it.

Sir Nicholas does not understand copyright policy

The following are statements Sir Nicholas has made which show that he does not understand Wikipedia copyright policy:

  • The user Mahlenmahlen must mention on his YouTube page which shows the clip, or on his user page, if YouTube provides one; that he is either free-licensing it or releasing it in the creative-commons. Such assertions that he was the uploader of the file on YouTube cannot be under any terms of reasonability be accepted.[29]
  • What exactly are you talking about? We do not need consensus on Talk:Barrington Hall for deciding if we need to keep YouTube video links on this website. [30]
  • YouTube links are not reliable as any person with an internet connection can upload a file on their website.[31]
  • Unless the video's copyrights are exclusively owned by YouTube, no – you cannot link to the site.[32]
  • YouTube links are either copyright infringements or not reliable.[33]

Sir Nicholas mistakes his personal views for consensus

The following are actions taken and statements made by Sir Nicholas where he completely ignores any arguments opposing his position to paint a false picture of consensus:

  • Deletion of List of big-bust models and performers against consensus.[34] While many of the keep arguments were WP:ILIKEIT, there were arguments which stated that the material was notable, had reliable sourcing for at least some of the article, and was capable of being NPOV.
  • Close with Keep against consensus in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dave Gilbert (game designer) 1. [35]
  • Yes, Tvoz, there is a difference of opinion on this matter, and all the administrators who are comfortably aware of the policies and guidelines of this place have their reasons as to why YouTube links should be removed. Have a look here User:Dmcdevit/YouTube (admin), User:J.smith/YouTube (admin).[36] (reply)
  • Please do not disrupt Wikipedia. A consensus has been reached on the WP:ANI page.[37] . It should be obvious that if there is any consensus on this issue, it is not that all YouTube links are inherently defective and should be removed.

Blocking Policy

  • I hate to drag in the case of a notorious troll and sockpuppetteer, but when one blocks a troll, one should block the troll for trolling (or particular instances thereof), not for the specious grounds that the troll's username is obscene in a non-English language. Part of the point of process is to communicate accurately to others what is and is not acceptable conduct. Had there been a user named "Kuntan" who was actually a productive contributor, the username block wouldn't have occurred in the same way. Uninformed users seeing the block would get a very poor view of the quality of our administrative process.
  • Sir Nicholas' block of User:Malber was blatantly out-of-process; so much so that Sir Nicholas even said that he shouldn't have been the one to block Malber. If Malber's actions in the RfA were objectionable enough to warrant a block, why did no other admin step up to block Malber?

I think this presents sufficient evidence that Sir Nicholas has insufficiently accurate knowledge to perform well some of the tasks in the purview of an administrator, and lacks the temperament to refrain from acting where he should not act. Argyriou (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary
  1. Nick should not be an admin. Posting photos of "the finger" before blocking someone and blocking editors with whom he is in personal disputes make that clear. His incivility towards editors with questions/objections to You Tube links, disruption at Barrington Hall regarding a link verified by the copyright holder (who happens to be a senior Google engineer), and his mistaken belief that "I am a law student" trumps Wikipedia policy (and copyright law) merely make it even more clear. Perhaps he would be a fine editor--but he shouldn't be an admin. Cindery 01:18, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. - the Barrington hijinks reveal an inappropriate attitude for an admin. --AStanhope 04:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. - I have no knowledge or opinion about the disputes regarding the blocking of users described above. But I endorse the position that Nearly Headless Nick should not be an administrator, from my personal experiences with him that had nothing to do with the other disputes. I believe that those with admin powers should be held to a higher standard than come-and-go editors, and need a certain level of maturity. However, in my few interactions with Nick, I found him to be:
    1. condescending: his "all the administrators who are comfortably aware of the policies and guidelines of this place have their reasons as to why YouTube links should be removed" was addressed to me and sounded like an attempt to intimidate and dismiss the valid question I was asking about some links that he had summarily removed without specific explanation, because "all the administrators" who know everything agree with him. This is both inaccurate and insulting, and not the way an admin should address any editor, or any question. As I responded to him [38], telling me that wiser heads than mine "have their reasons" is classic totalitarianism and shockingly unacceptable coming from an admin in response to a respectfully worded, genuine question - and that question had to be posed because he had not bothered to give an explanation on his removal. I am not a newbie here as he apparently assumed, nor am I male as he also assumed (and I find that offensive too) - I have over 1500 edits on over 400 articles in 3 months, and a reading of my user page would have informed him of my gender. This is the least professional interaction I've had with any admin. This makes me question if his temperment is what is needed in admins.
    2. inaccurate: "YouTube links are either copyright infringements or not reliable" was also addressed to me and is an absurd and incorrect statement. It was unhelpful and dismissive of a genuine question I was raising. I might point out that this was not a part of any other disputes Nick may have been having with other editors about You Tube. I have nothing to do with Barrington Hall and haven't even read the page, let alone be a part of the dispute. I specifically said I didn't want to get involved in the EL border wars, but that I was asking for a specific reading on the specific links that he removed, because those links were not random external link window-dressing, but were integrated into the article and illustrative of the text. I didn't claim to know if these links were or were not in violation - I asked if he knew when he removed them. This response - so totally incorrect and out of touch with reality - makes me question whether he has the knowledge that is needed of admins.
    3. overstepping of boundaries: Without explanation - with neither a note on my talk page nor an email to me, and with an edit summary devoid of content - he came onto my talk page and removed another user's message that was intended for me before I even had a chance to see it. Here's where: [39]. This was a note that someone I do not know left for me, pointing me to something that he or she thought I might be interested in reading. I think it is grossly out of line for anyone to edit anyone else's user talk page - and especially so without attempting to notify the person whose page it is. This was an abuse of power - especially egregious coming from an administrator. If he had a compelling reason to remove it - and I don't know if I think that is ever acceptable - then he had a responsibility to contact me regarding it. He should have sent me a note stating why he was taking the extraordinary step of removing content from my talk page, and making sure that I knew about it and that this highly outrageous action had ironclad justification. Instead he snuck onto my page and made a stealth edit, with the un-illuminating summary: "Reverted edits by Simbirskin (talk) to last version by Vera, Chuck & Dave". Also, as further evidence of the arbitrary nature of his original removal of the message from my page - I reverted it when I saw it and I see that he left it alone after that. So I guess it wasn't such a vital removal after all. No explanation, no apology, nothing was forthcoming. This calls into question his impartiality and his understanding of boundaries, both of which are vital in an admin.
I therefore feel that he is not suitably mature to handle the powers that admins are given. Tvoz | talk 00:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • I don't endorse the sentiment that Nicholas should have his "mop" revoked, but I do think many of his reactions should have been tempered. In my personal admin-ship-philosophy, even as we are blocking a troll, deleting vandalism, or defending an action we believe is right, we need to be courteous and respectful (tis something I aspire to, but don't always reach) ---J.S (T/C) 00:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I want specifically to avoid commenting on what should happen to Nick's admin bit. I want to believe that he and I and all of you have the capacity to learn from our mistakes, even if sometimes it takes a lovingly swung clue-by-four upside the head to shake us (and our stubborn preconceptions) up a bit. I think there's a problem here, and it needs to be solved, but I'm not going to declare that only one solution is possible. I think that some decisions need to be reviewed and overturned. I think that some practices to do with blocks and deletions, accusations and incivility, and using the admin bit where personally emotionally involved, need to stop. I think the emphasis on punitive rather than corrective action, assuming bad faith rather than good faith, presuming guilt rather than innocence, and blocking/deleting communications rather than opening them, is not helpful, and needs to be turned 180 degrees — which can be a slow and difficult process that meets much resistance. It's possible that simply staying away from some topics and participants for a while might help "temper reactions", as J.Smith put it. I don't really know, and I can't really know, in advance of events. Perhaps Nick will have a sudden change of heart on his own; such things have happened. Perhaps a delegation of trusted elders can perform what in other contexts is called an "intervention" or a "Dutch Uncle talk". Perhaps mentoring by some stern and strict old Wiki-sensei in the ways of Admin-Fu will impart a more rigorous discipline and the Tao of When to Recuse. Or perhaps being bullied and badgered mercilessly and unfairly by someone bigger and badder would make him resent that breed so much that he resolves never to be anything like that. Many possibilities. It all depends on what it takes to turn on the lightbulb floating overhead, which means it really depends on Nick. My approaching him seems to have done nothing. Someone else, singular or plural, might have a better outcome. Whoever else tries, I wish you (and him) luck. – SAJordan talkcontribs 06:41, 30 Dec 2006 (UTC).

Half in half outside view by Guy

In response to the points put by Argyriou and some others above:

  • Block of Malber. If anyone else had done it, there would be no argument. Malber was being deliberately provocative (call it trolling if you like).
  • Deletion of List of big-bust models and performers against consensus. Majority is not consensus. Consensus in this case is that all articles must be verifiable and stated from a neutral point of view. Sir Nicholas is far form the only established editor to conclude that a list founded on a group of editors' personal definition of what consititues "big", and with inclusion based on utterly unreliable sources, completely fails those policies. This was a defensible (and in my view completely correct) deletion, and illustrates precisely why AfD is explicitly not a vote: supermajority of WP:ILIKETITS absolutely cannot overrule policy. Nick's interpretation of the debate was valid and not abusive in any way even if you disagree with it.
  • Close with Keep against consensus in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dave Gilbert (game designer) 1. Reasoning was given, there was not much input to the debate and some of it lacked reasoning (citing WP:HOLE is all very well, but the article did make an assertion of notability so it doesn't really apply). So this is a defensible close, with reasoning given.
  • Barrington Hall. This was one of the most stupid disputes I can recall. As a point of principle, we should not link ot offsite media which may violate copyright, or for which copyright status is unknown, it is contributory infringement and places the project in legal jeopardy. Almost all YouTube links on the project at that time violated copyright in some respect, we did the same thing with YTMND for the same reaosn (soundtracks were almost without exception copyvios). Arguing about it will not make this inconvenient fact go away. Nick was absolutely right to state this, and if instead of arguing the participants had simply done what they did in the end - correctly identified the copyright status - there would have been no porblem. In matters of copyright, obduracy tends to be met with more obduracy. Sicne this appears to be the basis for much of the criticism of Nick, and the foundation of this entire process, I feel its important to be completely clear here: no amount of consensus among editors, no amount of re-stating "it's not a problem" without proving it, no amount of "but we like it", will ever make it right to link to offsite media which may infringe copyright. Removing such links is always permissible, and the burden is solidly on those seeking to include the links to justify them to those who challenge them. If we're going to trout-slap Nick for this then we're also going to have to trout-slap a lot of others, including Dmcdevit and me, because as far as I'm concerned if I see any link to any offsite content where the copyright status is not unambiguous (and unambiguously clean) then I will remove it and I will work on keeping it removed unless and until the problem is actually fixed.

So. Nick has been a bit bullheaded when provoked. Me too. The whole Barrinton Hall thing was a dialogue of the deaf from the beginning and is not indicative of fitness for adminship, and no credible evidence has yet been cited of abuse of powers, only of making calls that people disagree with. Let's have a straw poll: of those editors participating in this RfC, who has never once made a call that others disagree with, and then defended that call? Not me, for sure. Guy (Help!) 11:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users endorsing this summary

  1. Srikeit 13:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. That summarises it all quite well. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 22:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 09:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. This doesn't mean that he should have blocked Malber. -Amarkov blahedits 18:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. ---J.S (T/C) 20:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Guy seems unfamiliar with the Barrington dispute: the link was verified by the copyright owner, who is a senior Google engineer. (Um, Google owns You Tube.) Nick deleted the link after it was verified by the copyright owner, and claimed "I am a law student. I understand copyright law." I would not hire a law student to represent me in a copyright case against a senior Google engineer over a You Tube link dispute (and not just because law students haven't passed the bar yet and can't represent anyone in court :-) Cindery 00:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Come on, lay off Mimsy, I'm watching the video now and there's no copyright statement anywhere to be seen. He was acting in good faith trying to remove links to copyright violating materials. There really is no need to be quite terse and uncivil about all this, there's actually no need to drag anybodies qualifications or knowledge into this (and I know Mimsy started it all), it's a simple case of YouTube not having a simple way to show the copyright of the clips they host (oh how I long for a copyright notice like Flickr has), and Wikipedia for not having any way to confirm to a central project that the link is fine, that permission is given by the copyright holder for the clip to be shown via YouTube. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 01:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The response was to Guy, not Nick. But no, Nick was not acting in good faith in so far as 1) he knew the link was disputed, per talkpage discussions with me 2) he knew the copyright owner had posted on talkpage of article, affirming permission to use the link 3) he was aware of lengthy talkpage discussion at the article talkpage 3) he was aware of the EL discussions, in which consensus was against deletions under EL. But I also think it's wise to mention source credibility: a senior Google engineer v. a "law student." Do we want an admin who will inadvertantly cause problems like this, because he edit wars/believes he is "right" even if consensus is against him, policy is against him, editorial consensus is against him, and a copyright holder is against him? No matter how much info he got that his actions were disputed, Nick insisted on trying to impose his view. He doesn't seem to consider whom he might be upsetting when he does this. Today, a senior Google engineer over a You Tube link, what next tomorrow? Nick's apparent attitude that "editors don't count" isn't an asset to the project, in my view--one never knows who those editors are. Admins shoud have the good judgement to treat all editors with respect. Cindery 02:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • You are completely missing the point. The default, with disputed material, and especially with links to material with disputed copyright, is not to include. Think of it in these simple terms: when in doubt, keep it out. There is absolutely no way that any kind of consensus can override copyright policy, so the way to fix it was to unambiguously settle the copyright issue, not to arm-wave and shout and count the number of people who want it in. Nick was acting correctly, and I would have done the same (even if not in the same words). The refusal of editors on the Barrington Hall article to accept these facts is a point against them, not against Nick. Guy (Help!) 13:44, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, no 'I would say youare completely missing the point, and seem not to have read any of the EL discussions, understand what a link is, (or Wiki Copyright policy)...or Barberio's comment that the YT deletion project may be attracting liability to the project. Add it up: senior Google engineer + You Tube + reckless edit warrior "law student." (Please see also below Spartaz' --a member of the deletion minority--comment that continuing the YT discussion in general should happen on that page.) The point where Nick is concerned is: do we want an admin who attracts liability to the project via extremely disruptive edit warring against policy and consensus with the attitude "editors don't count"...when he has no idea/doesn't care who those editors are? Today a senior Google engineer over a You Tube link, what next tomorrow? I say he's a loose cannon; not worth the risk to wiki as an admin--Barberio states he should at least be censured. Perhaps he can be on "YT project revert parole"--allowed only one revert in any You Tube link dispute in which no other member of the deletion minority has also made any reverts, or simply on YT project parole--not allowed any reverts, or the appearance of soliciting them from any of his friends in the project or on IRC. Cindery 14:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should also take note, Guy, that a member of the five-person deletion minority, JSmith, advised Nick to drop the Barrington matter (but he continued edit warring anyway):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sir_Nicholas_de_Mimsy-Porpington/Archive/Archive08#Sometimes_it.27s_time_to_dropit_and_move_on... Cindery 14:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside Comment by User:Barberio

This is just a note to clarify part of this discussion relevant to YouTube linking.

There has never been accepted policy or guideline that Youtube links are automatically undesirable. It is and always has been, both in guideline, and policy, to take each instance of suspected copyvio content on a case by case basis. This issue has been raised multiple times on Wikipedia_talk:External_links and consensus has held to a 'case by case' review, and specifically rejected any 'assumption of guilt' for Youtube links.

A significant minority of admins have acted upon a contrary belief, and use "it's on Youtube, and most Youtube content is copyvio" as the only evidence needed to remove a link. (This has required a special notice to be applied to WP:EL to try and halt this behaviour.) Some of these editors have worked together in use of AWB for semi-automatic link deletion. When coupled with a misunderstanding of the guidelines, and a inappropriate attitude, this behaviour has been quite disruptive, and generated a fair amount of bad will.

It is my personal opinion that involvement in this kind of behaviour has been a black mark to all admins involved, and they should at the least have some amount of censure for being disruptive. --Barberio 13:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this statement

  1. Nick repeatedly deleted the link at Barrington Hall because it was a You Tube link--after the copyright holder, a senior Google engineer, verified it as a valid link, and editorial consensus of regular editors of the article was to keep the link. This was incredibly disruptive to the article. Cindery 15:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I haven't looked too much into the YouTube issue, but if it's about linking to a site that contains content where the licensing is questionable, then we would have to remove all links to sites that contain images and text with questionable licensing. This would remove a majority of cited sources. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

  • Removal of YouTube links is possible by any editor and in most cases, they are removing links to YouTube in good faith, trying to prevent legal action being taken against the WikiMedia Foundation. The disruption comes from those who aren't prepared to check the copyright status of videos being uploaded. There are over 10,000 outbound links to YouTube so there does need to be some urgent need to swiftly sort out 10,000+ potential contributory copyright infringements. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 14:07, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • My comment is, aside from my personal opinion on the actions of certain admins, a simple report of the current consensus view as reflected in the WP:EL guideline, that some Admins have rejected that consensus, and the result of their actions. You may certainly disagree, and believe that Youtube is a urgent and immediate threat that needs such special methods, but this should be taken up in consensus discussion first to gain support for those methods. WP:EL currently has a specific warning on this issue, placed there to try and stop this behaviour. This warning will stand, until the issue dies down, or consensus is shown to support these actions. --Barberio 15:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • There's no need for special measures, 10,000 links aren't going to take that long to sort through and when we do, we can find out what links need to be removed and what links can stay. I'd agree that perhaps anybody removing links to YouTube now without reviewing the content could be classed as disruptive and warned, but we're only talking about a few links here, if the copyright status is uncertain it's up to the person adding in the link to ensure it's properly licenced on YouTube and suitable for linking to from Wikipedia. We'd never ask an editor or an admin to determine the copyright status of an image here so why the difference with links. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 17:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Shimeru

(edit conflict) While I generally disagree with the contentions put forth in this RfC, I do find certain aspects of it troubling.

Kuntan appears pretty clearly to have been a troll, and deserving of a block on those grounds -- but not necessarily on the grounds of his name. It particularly troubles me that the points raised in defense were ignored, the request for comment on the name closed early and deleted out of process, and SA Jordan attacked (by another admin) for "wasting time defending a troll" (apparently "getting close to the point of disruption") when he pointed the fact out. Admins should take process more seriously than this, even if the end result is overwhelmingly likely to be the same. Blocking for name rather than conduct gives the appearance of ignoring process in order to take the easy way out. I feel it would have been better to do it correctly than to do it expediently.

On AfDs, Nick seems within his discretion for the most part. I would hope that he'd take the contested and overturned decisions as an indication that more careful consideration might be warranted, but I don't see anything abusive or malicious in his closings. The only one I find troubling is the discussion where he closed as keep, citing sources that hadn't been raised during the debate. While I commend his research, it would have been more appropriate to !vote keep or strong keep, bringing up those sources, and to allow another admin to close the AfD. That would have avoided any appearance of a conflict of interest.

Finally, on civility, Nick is at times brusque and at times sarcastic. So am I. So are a lot of editors. Could Nick take an extra moment to read over his comments before he posts them, when he's feeling annoyed, in an effort to avoid coming across that way? Yeah, probably. Is Nick crossing way over the civility line? I don't think so.

I think Nick is, for the most part, an able administrator, who has made some honest mistakes. It seems to me that his primary fault is acting too hastily in some cases. I would encourage Nick to take a little more time before applying an edit or an admin action to be sure he's considered it fully and is acting in accordance with process. But I do not believe that he is acting in bad faith or abusing his admin powers.

Users who endorse this summary

  1. Shimeru 01:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Just H 01:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC) Seems like a good person who is just a little too zealous. However, he's an admin, and admins have to hold themselves to higher standards, so I hope he improves in the future.[reply]
  3. I'm not "at war" with Nick. I just wish he would observe a lot of the constructive criticism that Shimeru has eloquently stated. I think a lot of his supporters could do well to do so too. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Yay, something Malber and I agree on. -Amarkov blahedits 18:33, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. ---J.S (T/C) 20:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Provisional statements

This is slightly unorthodox for an RFC, but this one has been a little muddled, so I've distilled this down to a handful of simple statements people can certify. Please certify each statement individually. Note, these are not recommendations for any kind of action to be taken, just findings of fact. (Please note, I'm only certifying some of the following statements.) --Barberio 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It should be noted re "edit warring at Barrington Hall that Nick returned a month later to restart the dispute (i.e., the link was disputed, the copyright owner verified the link, a great deal of discussion ensued, the link was restored. Then there was a month of calm...until Nick returned, apropos of nothing, to edit war over the link again. The person accused of edit warring with him was User:NE2, a completely neutral party, not a regular editor at Barrington Hall. Editors at Barrington Hall are concerned with Nick's edit warring because it happened twice. What can be done to prevent him from returning once a month to disrupt this article, is our question (and why would Wikipedia want an admin who would do any such thing...)

Cindery 18:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1) Administration activity is not exempt from WP:CIVIL and administrative duties should be handled in accordance.

Certified by:
  1. --Barberio 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Cindery01:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. – SAJordan talkcontribs 04:23, 31 Dec 2006 (UTC).
  5. --Argyriou (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. -Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

2) Being an admin is not an entitlement to edit war, and administrators are expected to engage in dispute resolution.

Certified by:
  1. --Barberio 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Cindery01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. – SAJordan talkcontribs 04:23, 31 Dec 2006 (UTC).
  5. --Argyriou (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

4) Admins should only use administrative actions in line with policy, or community decision.

Certified by:
  1. --Barberio 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Cindery01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. – SAJordan talkcontribs 04:23, 31 Dec 2006 (UTC).
  5. --Argyriou (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

3) User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington has failed to follow WP:CIVIL while undertaking his admin duties.

Certified by:
  1. --Cindery01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. – SAJordan talkcontribs 04:23, 31 Dec 2006 (UTC).
  4. -- (qualify with "at times") Argyriou (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

4) User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington edit warred over a link to YouTube in Barrington Hall, refusing dispute resolution.

Certified by:
  1. --Barberio 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Cindery01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. --Argyriou (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. -Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

6) User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington enacted a block in a way inconsistent with policy.

Certified by:
  1. --Cindery01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC) (on my block, do not endorse this with regards to block on Kuntun)[reply]
  3. – SAJordan talkcontribs 04:23, 31 Dec 2006 (UTC).
  4. (on Malber, at least)-Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

7) User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington enacted multiple AFD decisions that went against the consensus decisions made, or where there was no consensus.

Certified by:
  1. --Barberio 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. -- (two, anyway) Argyriou (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. -Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

8) User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington has taken no inappropriate actions beyond honest mistakes.

Certified by:
  1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

9) User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington's actions were defensible, even if one disagrees with individual actions.

Certified by:
  1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. -Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

10) People in glass houses should not throw stones. WP:CIVIL is a guideline which one is supposed to follow, not use as a stick with which to beat others and many if not all the complainints in this case have also violated WP:CIVIL.

Certified by:
  1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Many not all. --Spartaz 14:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. -Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

11) The onus is firmly on those seeking to include content, to justify its inclusion. Cintent should not be re-inserted until objections have been satisfactorily addressed. Credible objections made in good faith should not be ignored.

Certified by:
  1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Spartaz 14:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. This is... weird for an RfC, but...-Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

11a) It is asserted that Nicks actions were "incredibly disruptive" on Barrington Hall. "Disruption" only occurs when people start edit-warring. It takes two (or more) to disrupt an article. The rule is: bold, revert, discuss. The link was boldly added, reverted by Nick, and then this was reverted - which was the first step in the disruption. To avoid disrupting an article, wait until all credible good-faith objections are settled on talk before re-inserting content and links. In other words, it wasn't just Nick who was "incredibly disruptive" on the article, and it is fatuous to suggest that he was the sole cause of the problem.

Certified by:
  1. Guy (Help!) 14:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. -Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

12) Content and links with disputed copyright status should and must be removed and remain removed until such time as the copyright status is unambiguously established to be clean. No amount of supposed consensus can override the much wider consensus behind copyright policy, since violating copyright (either directly or through contributory infringement) places the Foundation in legal jeopardy.

Certified by:
  1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Spartaz 14:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. -Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

12a) Past disputes have seen users impersonating copyright holders in order to try to get content or links included; it is reasonable to require more than simply the word of an editor who wishes to include content.

Certified by:
  1. Guy (Help!) 13:59, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. -Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

13) AfD is not a vote. Admins are expected to close debates using their discretion and based on the balance of evidence. Numerical (even supermajority) support for a result which conflicts with the much wider consensus which underpins policy and guidelines, cannot override those policies and guidelines.

Certified by:
  1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Spartaz 14:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

-Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

14) In some cases where the debate is complex or the issues not clear-cut, administrators closing debates have been known to make mistakes. A deletion review process exists to fix this. All admin actions can be undone. No admin is required to be infallible.

Certified by:
  1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Spartaz 14:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. -Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

15) The majority of Nick's disputed deletion closures appear to have at least some credible support from editors in good standing, so are not "abuse of powers", simply judgement calls which are disputed by others.

Certified by:
  1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. -Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

16) Kuntan's block has wide support. whether it's for trolling or username is irrelevant. We do not wikilawyer about arbitrary distinctions when it is obvious that the user was here to pursue a personal agenda rather than to build a great encyclopaedia.

Certified by:
  1. Guy (Help!) 14:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Trying to make a federal case out of a simple case of dealing with a troll and removing content from a banned user (as proscribed by policy) not only demonstrates vindictivness and poor judgement by some of those bringing the RFC but significantly undermines their core argument. Spartaz 14:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. -Amarkov blahedits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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