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Appellations

• In what follows, any reference to "AOC" is an example that should be assumed to refer equally to WO, AVA, DO, DOCG etc

I figured it's worth sorting out some kind of consistent approach to appellation names, given that setting up appellations is one of the Next Big Jobs for most countries (not just France). As I see it there's two main areas for inconsistency :

• The tension between place names and the wine they produce. Unfortunately there's no 'easy' way to resolve this one, as some wines have entered the English language and are far more famous than the hamlets they come from. For instance, if English speaking people type Volnay into Wikipedia, most would expect to see an article about the wine, with a {{for}} tag at the top pointing them to Volnay, Côte-d'Or and Volnay, Sarthe. It shouldn't be a disambig page if >90% of English speakers are going to click on the same link to the wine. And with villages there's a "natural" alternative article name, in the form of Village, département, which saves us having to faff with alternative name structures for the wine (see next point).

On the other hand you'll get a major town like Beaune where you'd probably expect to find the town at the basic article and the wine at Beaune AOC or something. Sometimes the wine gets mentioned in the town article, sometimes there's a separate article. In principle I feel there always ought to be a separate article for the appellation. And every place article should have a paragraph entitled ==Wine==, which contains a {{main}} tag pointing at the appellation article (unless the latter is a redirect of course). In the cases where the appellation exists but there's not a lot to be said about the wine (Vienna maybe?) then the appellation article should still exist, but just as a redirect to the Wine section of the town article. Sometimes you see town articles with grape production lumped under "Industry" or "Agriculture" - I think if the wine is significant enough to deserve an appellation, then we should try to ensure there's a specific Wine section to deep-link to.

To further confuse things there are a handful of really big names like Burgundy, where the place article {{main}} link will be to Burgundy wine, which is an AOC in itself but has lots more AOC's linked to it. There's not too many of those so it should be manageable, but it brings us on to another point :

• Place AOC vs Place (AOC) vs Place AC vs Place vs Place A.O.C vs Place (A.O.C) vs Place wine vs Place (wine) vs AOC Place

I think I've seen all these variants around the place, and there's arguments for several of them :

• • Somewhere AOC - seems to be the most common, and 'natural' variant, at least in France
  • Somewhere A.O.C. - More common usage for some appellations, like Chilean D.O.'s
  • AOC Somewhere - good as it collects them together in sorted lists
  • Somewhere AC - Only a problem for French AOC's, but AC without the 'O' is more often seen on bottles in the real world
  • Somewhere (AOC) - allows wikilinks to use the [[Somewhere (AOC)|]] structure to hide the AOC
  • Somewhere (wine) - likewise. There's also a few places that have separate AOC's for wine and something else
  • Somewhere wine - another 'natural' option, and already used for country articles and big regions regardless of whether there's an appellation

In general I think the fewer 'standards' we have the better - but within those standards we need to be consistent by the provision of redirects from each 'standard' name to the main article. We already have "Somewhere wine" as a standard for country articles and big regions, and that is the 'natural' option for some of the other regions which happen to be appellations, such as Alsace wine. I would be minded to continue that down to some of the 'famous' smaller regions such as Chablis and Chinon, the sort that one might see generic references to on a supermarket shelf in the English-speaking world.

Personally I think I would prefer the standard article name to be "AOC Somewhere". Once you 'know' that's the structure, it's no less convenient than "Somewhere AOC", and it has the advantage of collecting them together in sorts. A disadvantage is that outside France I get the impression that DO's and WO's for instance are seldom used before the appellation name - and as for Germany..... ;-/ Any views on that? Would the advantage of self-sorting outweigh the slight unnaturalness? I suspect this one is going to fall into two camps, the "top-down" ones that regularly use lists of articles, and the "bottom-up" people who want to use the most natural format, but having "Somewhere AOC" as a redirect will allow 'natural' usage to end up at the right article while retaining the sort advantages.

Redirects - Regardless of whether the main article ends up at, I think there should be redirects for "Somewhere AOC", and "Somewhere (wine)" for every article, those two cover most of the wishlist. If someone's feeling keen they can do the (AOC), A.O.C., (A.O.C.) and AC variants as redirects too. ;-/

• Summary - I think what I'm proposing is :
  • 1) Somewhere - for famous villages and small districts, unless there's a conflict
  • 2) Somewhere wine - famous regions where 'natural' in English, and countries
  • 3) AOC Somewhere - for every appellation, but if article named as 1) or 2) then AOC Somewhere redirects there
  • 4) Somewhere AOC and Somewhere (wine) always set up as redirects to the main article, whether it's named as 1), 2) or 3)
  • 5) Any existing articles that don't fit the above template to be moved so that they do

What are other people's views? It would be nice to have a consistent format across all countries, but I'm not obsessive about that, we could cope with having one or two exceptions for AOC's or AVA's or Großlagen or WO's or whatever. I understand that this is a fundamental issue that needs to be debated in depth, but it needs to be sorted out before we create many more appellation articles (from all countries). So I'll let this one stew for a few weeks, before I start playing with AWB and create some articles ;-/ FlagSteward 16:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I think "AOC Somewhere" is completely wrong. The fact that France puts adjectives after nouns has nothing to do with how English works. And it has the disadvantage of keeping them out of alphabetical order - especially when sorting (like Wikitable sortable). Rmhermen 19:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Ummm - it's nothing to do with French adjectives. For one thing AOC names aren't adjectives, otherwise it would be AOC Bourguignon rather than AOC Bourgogne. And using the AOC first is not at all unusual in English - to take the first example that popped into my head, Berry Bros use that format. I'll grant that it is less usual to see some of the other appellations use that format, but then we get on to the 'ease of sorting' issue. My preference (not set in stone) is to have it so that the appellations sort together, so that you might get :

• AOC Aardvark
• AOC Penguin
• AVA Diamond
• AVA Ruby
• WO Banana
• WO Orange

rather than Aardvark AOC, Banana WO, Diamond AVA, Orange WO, Penguin AOC, Ruby AVA. That's just my feeling - I recognise that there are also times where mixing appellations up with everything else may also be helpful, just appellation-first is more helpful. FlagSteward 16:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC) Just bumping this - surely some of the regulars must have an opinion on this? As for where I've been lately - let's just say that some wine articles might be getting some new photos :-) FlagSteward 09:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

For those reading this in the Archive, BodegasAmbite replied in the Appellations (2) thread FlagSteward 18:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

• $0.02 I think, for the most part, we should follow the natural variant with paying due attention to how the average reader is going to stumble upon these names--through a bottle of wine, a wine book or magazine. For instance, for American Viticultural Areas it is almost always spoke of as [name] AVA like Walla Walla AVA, Augusta AVA, etc. In nearly every wine book that I've come across the French AOC are listed as [name] AOC. Also thinking in terms of categories, it looks much cleaner with the place name before the AOC. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 02:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Many of the issues you mention Agne could be settled by redirects, but it looks like people don't think the sorting thing matters and we're settling on Somewhere AOC (although ) for those areas not famous enough to have a 'natural' name in style 1) or 2). What I do think is important is the consistency of having Somewhere (wine) and AOC set up as redirects so that as you're writing you can link to an article without having to think about it :-))) - a bit more work to set up, but with long-term payback.

• Summary - So we now look to be going for :
  • 1) Somewhere - for famous villages and small districts, unless there's a conflict
  • 2) Somewhere wine - famous regions where 'natural' in English, and countries
  • 3) Somewhere AOC - (no punctuation) for every appellation, but if article named as 1) or 2) then Somewhere AOC redirects there
  • 4) Somewhere (wine) always set up as redirect to the main article, whether it's named as 1), 2) or 3)
  • 5) Any existing articles that don't fit the above template to be moved so that they do

Just for the record, I think some people are a bit keen to use the Somewhere AOC style when 1) or 2) would be more appropriate - for many of the big names of French wine at least, 1) is the "English" meaning of the name, no matter what the people running the French commune Wikiproject say :-)))) So I would encourage people to use the 1) style instead of Somewhere AOC for the genuinely notable areas or where there's no ambiguity with a place name (Crémant de Jura etc) - and there will be a redirect at Somewhere AOC in any case. I think I'll probably make the AOC's, WO's and Chilean DO's my next "big" project, although I need a break after my assessment marathon on our parent Project - probably time to do some writing, kill some stubs before sorting out the AOC's.FlagSteward 18:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Wine Template(s)

I think as a project we need to really look at the usefulness and efficiency of our templates, including our main Template:Wine. Looking at the history of the template you can see that quite a range of people have different ideas of what should and should not be included in the template. I think part of the reason is that it is so big and encompassing and the term "notable" is very vague and obviously subject to personal opinion. While I have faith that we could possibly come to agreement on the varietals, I think it would be hopelessly difficult to narrow down the "notable regions". The See Also section also becomes a catch all. Below is an idea that I would like the project to consider. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 02:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

• Split this template into three templates 1.) Grape/Varietal to be added to grape articles. 2.) Region/wine style to be added to 3.) Wine General to include a lot of the stuff currently in the "See also" section including the links to List of grape varieties and List of wine-producing regions. This template would be used on pages that don't already fall under the Grape/Varietal or Region/wine style template.

Wouldn't the templates 1 & 2 also need to choose notable varities and regions? Or was the idea that more varities/regions would fit into their own templates, and thus make the selection easier? If so, I would support this. Tomas e 21:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

For the most part, yes, I do think it would be easier to select "notable" varieties and regions if they were their own template because it would less of a massive construct sitting at the bottom of the article. Right now the template just seems very unmanageable. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 22:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually I think it's pretty easy - define "Notable enough for the Template" as "Top importance articles" - period. That way we get 30-odd articles on a single Template, which is manageable, and provide a link to a general Link. So for instance you'd have "Grape Varieties: Chardonnay....Sangiovese (more)" and so on for regions/countries and 'misc'. If you wanted a separate varieties template (which on balance I think I'm somewhat against), you'd do the same down to the High articles, or even Mid. FlagSteward 19:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

That's a tremendous idea! Agne^Cheese/^Wine 04:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

List of wineries

Recently I stumbled upon these articles

• Sonoma County wineries
• Santa Cruz Mountain Wineries
• Napa County wineries

I'd like to open this up for broader opinion but I just don't see the value and need of theses articles, outside of being an advertisement for this wineries-contrary to Wikipedia is a not a wine guide. Furthermore the details that are not advertisements would be better suited in the corresponding AVA articles-Sonoma County AVA, Santa Cruz Mountains AVA, Napa Valley (wine). Any thoughts? Agne^Cheese/^Wine 22:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Update I'm going to move any relevant and worthwhile information to the AVA articles and submit these articles for AfD. Essentially we have here the potential for two duplicating articles with the list of wineries articles standing to be an advert article.Agne^Cheese/^Wine 23:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The AfD discussions for anyone interested. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 23:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Santa Cruz Mountain Wineries
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sonoma County wineries (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Napa County wineries

FWIW, I think some lists like these are useful to Wikipedians - certainly I think the list we have somewhere of the Bordeaux cru classés is encyclopaedic, and I can imagine that there are a handful of other areas where the same might be true, we have one of the Barossa Valley from memory. Perhaps if it's aimed more at vineyards than companies that helps allay WP:ADVERT fears, but I think to the sort of person these things are aimed at, it is more useful to have general lists than to stick to the letter of the AVA/AOC. Would it make sense to have separate lists of crus classés for Pauillac, Margaux, St Julien etc? OF course not - but it's still a pretty well defined area and notability. Define notability as 'entitled to a sensible AVA' perhaps, and I can see that List of vineyards in the Napa Valley would be a perfectly encyclopaedic list. Sta Cruz Mountains or Sonoma County as a whole I have more of a problem with, but List of vineyards in the Russian River Valley would probably be OK, I'd guess a high proportion would be notable to some extent. I guess that's the test, if >2/3 of the contents of a list have Wiki entries anyway, then a list becomes more of a navigation tool round Wikipedia than advertising.FlagSteward 19:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that list of vineyards would be a different matter. For one, with vineyards we are dealing with the terrior characteristics rather then just the commercial aspect. I think a list of wineries have some benefit but is kept more appropriately in context as an external link on the wine region page. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 22:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

One point that can be made about a list of Châteaux in the 1855 Bordeaux classification, in different to a list of "somewhere" wineries is that a) it can easily be verified as complete, b) the classification principle and the relevance of being included (with respect to notability, price et c.) has definitely stood the test of time. BTW, this is not a bias specifically against US wineries on my part. While I've contributed e.g. some Germany-related wine material and plans to add more, I have no plans whatsoever to create a list of, or article on "Wineries in Bernkastel-Kues" or "Vineyard owners in Forster Ungeheuer" or some similar subject. Tomas e 22:57, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The classification lists are a different matter all together and have historical significance. They are also not trying to list every single chateau in Bordeaux in a directory style article. There are hundreds of estates in the Bordeaux region that will never have an article or mention in any relevant wikipedia article because they don't pass the standards of WP:CORP and you'll never see those wines outside of Bordeaux. I'm afraid that my fellow Americans over on the article deletions are thinking very locally, especially when they say that the majority of Sonoma's 250 wineries are notable. That is simply false. The majority of those wineries do not have distribution outside of the West Coast with a sizable number of them not even going far from Sonoma and surrounding counties. I do wonder what these same editors would say about a Wineries in Bernkastel-Kues or Vineyard owners in Forster Ungeheuer article and if they would see the same type of local, isolate bias. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 04:06, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is an interesting comment by an editor on the Sonoma County wineries AfD. Apparently he is in favor of doing away with our AVA article because he believes more people will be searching on collective articles about the wineries in an area then on the wine region itself. I obviously disagree with him but he appears quite passionate in his point. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 02:19, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Something interesting

In researching for the American wine article I've came across this article link, written by a Wikipedia Administrator, An Untapped SEO Opportunity: Image Link Love From Wikipedia. The article is essentially touting the business benefits of donating free images to Wikipedia and the subsequent brand advertising you will get in return. The article centers around our wine articles as examples and includes a list of wine-related articles that would benefit from these pictures. Admittedly, I'm not sure what my overall impression of this is. My first instinct is that seems close to "selling advertising space" which seems to be foreign to the "Wiki-way". But at the same time, I will admit, that Durova is an admin of whom I respect immensely and her involvement gave me reason to look closer and be more open minded. I do want the overall quality of wine articles to improve and free images are very valuable but I suppose there is a fine between the encyclopedic worth or the image and whether its just advertisement for the sake of advertising. Any thoughts? Agne^Cheese/^Wine 00:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I get somewhat mixed feelings about the article. Sure, it would be good if we got more high-quality wine related images uploaded, but this product placement talk worries me. From now on I'll always take photos of the parking lots of all famous wineries I visit, to have on hand in case product placement photos appear... :-) Tomas e 21:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I suppose it depends on how obvious of a product placement the photo is and in what context or article it is being used in. For instance, I uploaded Image:Moet and glass.jpg for use on the Moët et Chandon page which I think is perfectly appropriate. On the other hand, I will admit that I'm not really thrilled about its use on the Champagne (wine region) page even though I added it there. I wanted to have some image of a glass of champagne and the Moet picture was the best at the time. I can live with that till hopefully something better comes along. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 22:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree that the preference should always be non-commercial, and that commercial images will be second-best. OR actaully third-best where the commercial-ness is very 'obvious' (so more appropriate just to the company page, like that Moet + glass). But OTOH you do end up with some commercial presence even in images that aren't intended as adverts, for instance in my recent trip, I took quite a few photos of road signs saying "Vignobles de XXX AOC - Chateau de YYY". They're very evocative of the area, but are technically WP:ADVERTs, even if it's a man and his dog operation that doesn't 'export' further than the next village. But I'd agree that anything owned by a multinational should be confined to the company page where possible, and substituted on other pages when less commercial images become available. Another test could be the image licence, which should be as free as possible with no attribution restrictions ideally. FlagSteward 19:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Outside opinion

What do you guys assess of the notability of Kistler Vineyards? The two claims (both uncited) that I see are a 100 point score by Parker's Wine Advocate and a trivial mention in Sideways. It does have a relatively fair amount of ghits and gnews hits for a smaller winery. I'm partial inclusion myself but I don't know if that is just my West Coast US bias :) because I've obviously seen their wines around where I'm at. I'd like to get a broader opinion by some of our European and Aussie members. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 03:20, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

• Their wines aren't seen in Australia, but I have heard of their reputation through various sources. I checked the Robert Parker "World's Greatest Wine Estates" book and that only records a 97 point score for the wine in question (though there may possibly be multiple notes by Parker). That said, the inclusion of Kistler in the "World's Greatest Wine Estates" book (1 of 23 in the US) may be a step to establishing notability? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Camw (talk • contribs) 12:18, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
• Shouldn't this discussion of an article's notability or lack thereof be held on the article's talk page? Toddstreat1 12:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Many times this page gets more traffic and attention then some of the smaller wineries pages. Plus a conversation here can open up to a discussion on the broader scale of establishing notability of wineries. If the page was showing active editing (as you have done) then a note would certainly be placed on the talk page-which you beat me to. :) Agne^Cheese/^Wine 22:03, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps. The name Kistler Vineyards didn't ring a bell with this European (but I'm not that good at Californian wines). However, using Wine-Searcher[1] and limiting my search to Europe returned a reasonable number of hits (several vintages), primarily in the UK and Germany, so Kistler wines seems to have some distribution in Europe, and could probably be said to be somemwhat notable even on this side of the pond. I think Wine-Searcher and what it tells about distribution and availability is a good supplement to the wine guides since a few of us consider wine as something made to be drunk (eventually) and not just read about. :-) But in all honesty, from my experience it seems much easier for producers of Californian Cabernet Sauvignon or Shiraz to earn a name in Europe, than those who focus on Chardonnay. On another note, a search using my account on erobertparker.com told me that no Kistler wine has ever received 100 points, and since the RP 100 claim actually is a RP 97, I removed it from the article. Tomas e 22:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

That is a good point. European distribution is actually a pretty big deal for smaller wineries in the States. Its not an easy task. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 22:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

• A couple more... Again, I feel a little bias since I can easily find most all these wines in the west coast so a more international opinion is always helpful. Currently none of these are asserting notability beyond just being a winery. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 10:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
• Byington Vineyard - 25 gnews, No wine spectator site hits, No Decanter hits
• Kathryn Kennedy Winery - 31 gnews, 6 WS hits, No Decanter hits
• Martella Wines - 15 gnews, No WS site hits, No Decanter hits
• Savannah-Chanelle Vineyards - 15 gnews, 3 WS hits, No Decanter hits
• Testarossa Vineyards - 75 gnews, 3 WS hits, No Decanter hits

I add some g-news/Wine Spectator/Decanter "hits". While not perfect I've found that a collection of those three tends to give an idea of how much coverage in the wine world a winery has to set itself apart from just being a winery and notability apart from being a "local well known". Its also good fodder for some reliable sources for the article. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 10:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Coming late to this although I've queried some of the US vineyards in the past, the trouble is that all things Californian 'benefit' from systematic bias. FWIW Decanter is my first source for the notability of US wines - as the UK is the centre for the international trade, anything decent usually finds its way here, even though it seems most of the Kistler here ends up at Gordon Ramsay's restaurants for eg US$350 for the Noisetiers 2002.... I agree there's a problem as neither Parker points nor price in itself is a guide to notability (although price x volume maybe is), thanks to all these little boutiquey wineries that barely get distribution outside the state let alone internationally. So if Californians get articles in Decanter then I'm impressed, if it's just 1-2 ratings then I'll get worried but see what the Spectator has to say. If it feels like they've achieved genuinely North American notability but just haven't bothered to export, then I'll probably be happy to let them in. As a test - see if you would let Camel Valley through - have you heard of them? With 14,500 Ghits and9 Spectator hits I'd say yes, but at the bottom end - they're probably one of half a dozen English vineyards that are genuinely of international interest. (and no, I've no affiliation, in fact I haven't drunk anything of theirs for a while, that reminds me....)FWIW my view would be that Kistler should stay, Kathryn Kennedy is marginal, the others are probably the wrong side of marginal as I put weight on the views of the wine press. FlagSteward 19:54, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that systematic bias plays a huge role and I will regretfully admit that my early Wikipedia wine edits was decided skewed in that direction with little regard for the international stage that wine is on. I've seen my error and have been consciously working to correcting that. I think a middle ground between Wine Spectator and Decanter is the best route because each has stronger "bureaus" in wine writers that tend to dominate their coverage. For instance, I think Spectator does a much better job in their Italian wine coverage then Decanter but no one can come close to Decanter in French wine coverage. With American wines there will always be more coverage in Spectator then Decanter and that is expectant. I agree that a mention of an American wine by Decanter is impressive but I wouldn't take a lack of mention as a huge negative mark. As for for Camel Valley, I actually had to laugh out loud when I read your comment and "have you heard of them?". I have a friend who did marketing for Wine and Spirits in conjunction with the the International Wine Challenge and meet Sam Lindo, the winemaker. She included their sparkling wine in a blind tasting party we had and made a silly fool out of me in trying to guess where it was from. (For some reason I was so adamant in thinking it was a Cava!) So yes, I have heard of them and would consider them notable. They certainly are one of the pioneers in English wine. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 03:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:WINEGUIDE

Just an FYI. Another editor has expressed dissatisfaction with Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a wine guide and discussion is taking place on the talk page. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 07:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

List of Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée wines & Alsace

In the List of Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée wines article, the Alsace wines are listed with Alsace + varietal designations as separate appellations, and Alsace Grand Cru + vineyard as separate appellations. (But not with Alsace + existing non-Grand Cru lieu-dits or Alsace Grand Cru + vineyard + varietal designation, which would be equally logical and add a few hundred more.) I consider this to be wrong, since the INAO lists three AOC rules for Alsace: AOC Alsace, AOC Alsace Grand Cru and AOC Crémant d'Alsace. Everything else is additional designations, not separate appellations. It seems that the mentioning of a specific lieu-dit is mandatory for Alsace GC, but that doesn't make each lieu-dit a separate appellation. Unless anyone voices any objections in the next few days, I'm going to cut the Alsace entries down to three. I'll also check up on a few "sec" and "rosé" from other regions in th list, because I suspect that the case is the same with these. Tomas e 14:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

No protests in two weeks about all the Alsace "AOCs" so away they went. It actually turned out that e.g. Bergerac sec, Bordeaux sec and Bordeaux rosé were appellations of their own, but not Jurançon sec, Saumur sec blanc, Bergerac rosé or Rosé d'Anjou as judged by INAO's online database of AOC regulations. (Those designations which appear in the heading of any AOC document, alone or not, have been judged to be separate appellations, the rest have been judged to be designations within an appellation.) But then again, few people have accused the AOC system to be extremely logical... Tomas e 16:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

This article takes my breath away

Ripple (wine)
On a more serious note. What do you guys think about merging all these Bum wine types into one article? The others that I can see going here would be MD 20/20, Thunderbird (wine), Night Train Express, Cisco (wine), Wild Irish Rose, Buckfast Tonic Wine and maybe Boone's Farm. Does anyone see these article becoming more then individual stubs and collections of trivia and pop culture reference? Agne^Cheese/^Wine 11:37, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

• Well, at least some of the bumwines are notable, or at least notorious. Some of 'em probably don't merit an article of their own, just as not every microvintage of the good stuff merits an article. OTOH, longstanding bum wines like MD 20/20 and Thunderbird certainly are notable to get an article. We shouldn't be adcovating for merger or reduced Wikipedia coverage of these bevarages just because we don't like the shit; there's a longstanding precedent on Wikipedia that the perceived quality of something has little to do with notability--and some things are notable precisely because they are bad.  :)
• If anything, such beverages are outside the scope of this WikiProject. So don't waste time on bum wine, or try to exile it from Wikipedia. Just ignore it. But if the WikiProject does decide that bum wine falls under its scope, it should cover it fairly. --EngineerScotty 19:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
• I'll agree with EngineerScotty, these items are not even wine, they are only "wine" in name only. Most of them are malt beverages. On the prior comment I also believe that these articles should remain separate as they are distinctive products, even if "wine drinkers" scoff at them. I know many a college kid who drinks Boone's Farm and some of those others.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 01:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the quality of the wines are irrelevant. My concern is whether or not these articles will ever become more then a stubs worth of info or simply a collection of trivia and pop culture reference. If not then I think a merger would best serve the article and subject matter. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 09:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I could see a summary article expanded upon but I think certain ones have a legitimate case for having their own articles. I'm not too sure Boone's Farm is a "Bum wine" if not more than a college kid's drink, wow this is a tough topic. This just reminds me of when I worked for Disney as a chef and the blues club at Pleasure Island sold MD 20/20 in a paper bag as a joke and people used to actually order it.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 15:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

• There's a cajun restaurant in Portland, Oregon called Le Bistro Montage that offers (or did at one time; I haven't been there in years) a cocktail called "The Ex Wife"--a mixture of Night Train and vodka. Cost $80 per drink. No, I never ordered one, but I suspect that it did occasionally get ordered by inebriated folks with more dollars than sense. --EngineerScotty 18:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
• Update Another user has nominated Bum wine for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bum wine. While I don't think the article should be deleted, the nominator have some valid concerns that need to be addressed. Starting with the title, can anyone think of a better one that has some references or support? Agne^Cheese/^Wine 00:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Good Intentions

Hi everyone, just a quick note to say that I'm still here and still full of good intentions (!), but unfortunately still really busy :( I would like to finish off the few remaining red links in Spanish Wine Regions, contribute to the Appellations debate, and also to the Organic/natural wine articles, seeing as that's the type of wine I make!!! see you all soon and keep up the good work :) --BodegasAmbite 08:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Spam from wines-fr.com

A number of the French region articles have been attracting links from wines-fr.com, which have a tiny bit of information in french about the region but are mainly sales pages. I've cleaned up any that I've found with the spamfinding tool but if people could just keep an eye on that one. I've got a few things to say about other stuff on this page, not been around so much. But article-wise I've been pottering around Burgundy - I've put up the first of my pics from my trip, I'm quite pleased with the one of the Grand Crus of Chablis FlagSteward 15:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Oooh gorgeous pics. One small request though, would you consider adding Category:Wine-related images to your images. I've admittedly been bad about that myself and I've have tried to be good adding them to the new pictures I've put up in the Winemaking article and trying to back track with my other photos. Actually, if anyone is poking around a wine page with pics it might not be a bad idea to check out the info on the photos and see if they need the category. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 18:09, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Fermentation (wine)

After looking at the three main articles that somewhat deal with fermentation in the wine sense-fermentation (food),Fermentation (biochemistry) and Ethanol fermentation. I decided to create an article that primarily deals with the fermentation in strictly a winemaking sense. I figured that to add the winemaking components that are needed to any of those articles would overwhelm them or seem out of focus. Any thoughts, comments or suggestions are always welcomed as well as any help in changing some of the wine related links that are currently scattered throughout the three above mentioned articles to be redirected to this article. Thanks! Agne^Cheese/^Wine 21:12, 20 October 2007 (UTC)