Talk:History of erotic depictions

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Amen for Wikipedia

Hell yes. This is what I like to see on the Main Page! Let's develop a theme here.UberCryxic 00:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and now it's a target for every vandal on Wikipedia. (84.13.178.35 22:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC))

Just like every other FA on the main page. pschemp | talk 22:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Good. If it means they're not bothering anybody else... :) Samsara (talk • contribs) 22:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks alot wikipedia

Yeah, Wikipedia is not censored and all... but this didn't lend much credibility to my attempts at proving wikipedia as a viable start for internet research.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.29.193.181 (talk • contribs)

Um perhaps you missed the 40+ references at the bottom of the article. pschemp | talk 00:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you read the article? It's fairly good. I'm guessing your research isn't exactly directed towards erotic depictions? The Main Page has a great deal of variety; I'm sure another day you'd find something you liked.UberCryxic 00:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I think it would behoove wikipedia editors to act as if sex did not exist and to refrain from mentioning it--or making any articles about it--in the future. Information about anything to do with sex can do nothing but harm to a world full of dangerously wayward souls. Thank You. Brentt 01:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You mean babies don't come from storks? - Samsara (talk • contribs) 01:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, there are other theories about where babies come from, but they are all pretty wacky (and perverted), and don't need to be given equal validity. Brentt 04:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Just for the heck of it and because you've left enough ambiguity that I'm not sure, are you being serious or not? pschemp | talk 04:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Depends on which part your speaking of. I really do think babies come from storks, but I don't know if I'm being serious or not about the other thing, because the other thing doesn't exist, so I'm not sure if I'm serious. Maybe? Brentt 08:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Images

Please refrain from removing images without discussing it first here. There are very good reasons why these ones were included and just removing them is not helpful. Also, for those who keep changing my spelling of civilisation, please see here. It is a valid spelling. Thank you. pschemp | talk 00:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Why not use the more common spelling for consistency's sake? Nimrand 01:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The rule around here is to retain the spelling of the original contributor as a sign of respect. Thank you. Samsara (talk • contribs) 01:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, while I dismiss the inaccurate comment about "the more common spelling", the rule is that the article should be consistent throughout with either British English or American English. The choice of which to use depends on either the subject, or, if that doesn't yield a preference, on the earliest editor's selection. The choice between the British spelling "civilisation" and the American spelling "civilization" should be made on that basis, not an individual editor's preference. (But I haven't studied the history of the article enough to judge whether the British spelling is the appropriate choice in this case.) Xtifr _tälk 22:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

???

Interesting choice of Featured Article. I hope elementary school teachers aren't planning to send their students on here to research anything in the next 24 hours. --D-Day ^{I'm all ears} 00:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Eh, why not? Then they can see how babies are made. The damn bastards always wonder that, after all (kidding, of course)....UberCryxic 00:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I hope they do send their kids here personally. Every thing contained has an academic source. They can can then lecture on the morality of those scholars who wrote about it first then. pschemp | talk 00:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

But if they did send their students here, they are dumb. It's no secret that Wikipedia is uncensored. I personally think this article shows that it's possible to have an unbiased and academic treatment of a socially taboo subject. *question though* will this get filtered by various filtering programs? 66.194.72.10 00:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Probably. School filtering systems are pretty extreme. --Vyran 01:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Depends on the system. Like often the Penis article is blocked, but not ones like this because there isn't a "bad key word" in the title. pschemp | talk 03:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Awesome article

It was a great read, and kudos for putting it on the front page. It's gotta be a particularly bad vandalism magnet tho, huh? I'll put it on my watchlist. Anchoress 00:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You, and hopefully a few dozen others. Put your seatbelt on, this could be a wild ride ; )

And yes, it's a great article, and front page placement was a bold move. Doc Tropics 01:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that by lunch-time this article will have to be protected or semi-protected. But props to all involved; I think it is excellent work. Legis 08:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

See also links

"think we can safely assume that you can read edit summaries, Blue"

Well, I can read this: "see also was removed as part of FAC discussions)"

However, nobody but a consumate Wikipedia bureaucrat is actually going to understand the above as an "explanation".

Is it too much to ask other editors to have the @#%^@^@%ing decency to explain themselves? Might save yourselves a needless edit war.

Since when and by what rule are "See also" links to other articles disallowed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamcuriousblue (talk • contribs)

You missed an earlier edit summary and the above post on this very talk page. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 00:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Bunch of gay porn links

This article is not about pornography, and links are given to pornography articles where appropriate. The "see also" section was removed for a reason - the links in the main text are perfectly adequate to direct the reader to related topics. Finally, all the links added were of a homosexual theme, which is introducing undue weight into the article. Samsara (talk • contribs) 00:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This is arbitrary – pornography is a subset of erotic depictions. Furthermore, none of these links are included in the article itself, that's why I included them! The content of the "Lesbianism in erotica" article in particular closely parallels this one. As per the "three revert rule", I'll wait 24 hours and some discussion before re-adding these links, but so far, I've been given some very poor explanations by other editors concerning their actions. "It was removed for a reason" is not an explanation! Iamcuriousblue 00:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said you missed this one. Please also see Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of erotic depictions. Thank you. Samsara (talk • contribs) 00:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I've re-added the lesbianism in erotica link within the text, with what I think is an appropriate degree of weight. Dybryd 01:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that adding links that flesh out aspects of this topic not covered in this article (in this case, the history of various kinds of homoerotic depictions) in any way constitutes "undue weight". And frankly, I am a bit suspicious about exactly what you have against "introducing a homosexual theme" to an article about "erotic depictions". Homoeroticism is part of erotica, after all.

In any event, Wikipedia articles are edited by consensus, and I'd like to throw this open to discussion and perhaps a straw poll. See also section or some other links to history of homoerotic depictions – so far I say yes and Samsara says no – what do other's think? Iamcuriousblue 01:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

In any case, here's the diff from the FAC discussion: [1] - Samsara (talk • contribs) 01:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that the FAC discussion explicitly says that All of those either are or should be incorporated into the article text. If they aren't, then clearly they should either be included into the text of the article or left in "See also". The problem with "See also" on FAC was not that it existed, but rather that it was too long. This is no longer the case. (Also, please no straw polls. Polls are evil.) —Cuiviénen 01:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree with the no straw poll. Polls are evil. pschemp | talk 01:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually the see also consisted of only 3 links at the time it was called "bloated". There is no actual need for a see also section at all. Frog for instance does not have one either. If it is relevent if should go in the text with a citation. For this reason, I removed Dybyrds edit because it put uncited material into the article. This is an FA. we don't just dump stuff in without citing it. It also didn't refer to a specific depiction, was just a generic statement. pschemp | talk 01:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, fine. I don't think this article covers this topic in adequate detail and I thought it would be helpful to add a link to articles that did cover the topic in more detail. But fine, "featured article", property of the editors who have been working on it, and evidently not to be touched. I'll keep well away from it. Iamcuriousblue 01:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Commercial links in references

Reference number 3 contains

Marilyn Chambers, John Leslie, Seymore Butts (2005). Pornography: The Secret History of Civilization (DVD). Koch Vision. {{cite AV media}}: External link in |title= (help) ISBN 1417228857

Is there a more 'neutral' way to cite this video? As of now the commercial link seems like a very weasily bit of spam. RichMac (Talk) 01:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a link to the publisher. If it was a link to amazon.com, it might be a problem. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 01:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No, its not spam, its the publishers website. The citation is correct and neutral and the Amazon page for this has incorrect publishing information anyway. pschemp | talk 01:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Would removing the link and leaving it as a simple reference be appropriate? I hate to link to page off wikipedia and see pricing. It just seems fundamentally wrong to me. RichMac (Talk) 07:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No. that link is the proof that this reference is legitimate and people who want to find out more about it should be allowed to do so. You'll just have to get over your squeamishness, this is important information to be linked to. Without it, beacuse it is so heavily used, questions would arise at to whether the resource existed. pschemp | talk 07:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Squeamishness? Did you bother reading my reasoning? It has absolutely nothing to do with being prudish it's a matter of SPAM commercial linkage. Surely there must be a better reference. RichMac (Talk) 08:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Seymore Butts..? Dear God.. --Wooty Woot? contribs 07:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Can we find a better illustration?

• 

I do not believe this image is a representative or a particularly evocative example of digitally altered erotica. --89.242.103.224 02:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Upload one and we'll discuss it. Thanks. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 02:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Volunteers for warning vandals?

Does anybody want to take on the job of dishing out warnings and issuing blocks while the rest of us revert? Samsara (talk • contribs) 02:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Mmmm, not sure if that's a good use of resources. I don't mind warning people (I do that usually when I revert - if it's appropriate), but I'm not willing to look back thru previous reverts by other editors to figure out whether they were vandalism, and to warn if appropriate. And, I am not an admin so I can't block. Let's put it this way; if other editors use really descriptive edit summaries so I don't have to look at a bunch of diffs, I'd be happy to warn vandals for the next few hours. Anchoress 02:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Cool. When you see me using edit summaries matching "Reverted edits by [...] (talk) to last version by [...]", it means I'm classifying the edit as vandalism. Technically, that edit summary should only be used for vandalism, so I expect that other admins use it in a similar way. Most other people use "rvv" to mean "revert vandalism", but you knew that (just for benefit of other readers) ;) Put a message on my talk or pschemp's when someone needs blocking. Many thanks, Samsara (talk • contribs) 02:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I know what rvv means, but for instance I don't want to bother warning any of the people who have been 'fixing' the spelling, so when people just revert with 'reverting to last version by so-and-so', I'm not gonna bother even looking at it to figure out if it was vandalism. Anchoress 02:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hope the article will not require semi-protection. --Brand спойт 03:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Kinda Inappropriate for Feature...

I know a lot of kids use Wikipedia, and I think it was a bad idea featuring it. Does anyone agree with me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.51.119 (talk • contribs)

Yes! Very innappropriate! Someone should change this! This is out of the question. I understand that Wikipedia isn't censored, but putting it on the front page. Thanks, now Wikipedia will be blocked at my school tomorrow. Of course the article on Penis and fuck exists, but let the person go there themselves, instead of innocently finding porn on the front page of a "professional" encyclopedia. Yes it is porn, not "erotic paintings". "Erotic paintings" is a cover to make it sound innocent, but its still porn. They have nude models, they can call that "erotic picture" but if you go to a pornsite, its the same thing, its just that people don't call it art. Is hentai porn or art? Is pictures of children's cartoons naked porn or art? Reconsider your definition of the word "art". -69.67.230.47 03:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course this article includes the topic of pornography. No one is hiding that fact. But when the term wasn't invented until the 1860's, you have to use something else if you include the Greek and the Romans. This isn't here to define "porn" or "art" just give part of our human history. Personally I've never seen a porn site that featured paintings from Pompeii, but then you seem to be more knowledgeable about them than me. pschemp | talk 04:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

That makes a difference!? The term wasn't invented until 1860's!? Remove these images! Remove this! If that is the reason this is here, you're doing this for the wrong reason! Pornography is pornography, no age, date, or era can change that!

Lets show kids this! Come on! Lets show kids this and tell them its not wrong because the term porn came after this. Its not porn! Its Erotic art! Erotic art are pictures of nude people having sex. Porn is pictures of nude people having sex! Hey, lets get a grip people. Are they sexual images? Is porn sexual images? Same damn thing. -69.67.230.47 04:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Now, you say its just a part of history. Ok, ok. If there was a sextape that changed history, that's history. Should it be shown on Wikipedia? Or at least pictures of penetration? That's porno. Are we this desperate that we need images of it? -69.67.230.47

Yes, get a grip. It's not wrong. See it for what it is. Pictures of people with no clothes on having fun. Sex can be enjoyed responsibly, you know. You're not doing kids a favour by hiding it from them, because they will discover it for themselves. Samsara (talk • contribs) 04:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Incredible. That philosophy is what's making us an immoral society. Parents have the responsibility to teach their kids what sex is, and when to do it. If you teach kids this, they will have a higher chance of saving this act for marriage. Sex is for marriage, you can't run around willy-nilly, having sex. We aren't hiding sex. We shouldn't hide it. Sex education needs to be taught, preferably by parents, if they aren't cowards. Why are STDs all over the place, this kinda thing, my friend, this. They should learn when to do it. I may sound repetitive, but it needs to be said. Why is this even an arguement? 50-60 years ago, they knew better. Oh, screw this. You guys are too thick-headed that you won't get what I'm saying. I've argued with you guys before, you never get it. -69.67.230.47 04:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Who says sex is for marriage? What a really stupid concept. For me, not having sex before marriage is inmoral. Why should the morality of a single editor dictate Wikipedia policies? If you didn't want this article to be FA then you should have voted against it. Complaining now is useless and irresponsible. Sarg 08:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

In that case perhaps you realize that continuing to rant is useless then. pschemp | talk 05:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I doubt a few pictures of bronze sculptures (admittedly rather tastefully done) will encourage anyone to have sex. This is not the place to argue about politics. Like I said below, if you don't like it, use another reference, one that IS censored. WP will never be so. --Wooty Woot? contribs 07:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, or just wait 18 hours until it's off the front page. Anchoress 07:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This is highly inappropriate to be featured on the main page. Many children use Wikipedia for research in schools. I understand that Wikipedia is a open source community, but there are editors that decide what gets placed on the main page. Why does this article need to be highlighted? There's enough pornography on the Internet, why does it need to be on the front page of this site? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.102.10.212 (talk • contribs)

If you are concerned about it, use another reference. --Wooty Woot? contribs 07:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I think kids will love this. Samsara (talk • contribs) 02:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks like good educational material to me. pschemp | talk 02:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

While it goes to pretty much to the extremes of what is an acceptable "featured article" it also does so in a refreshingly professional manner. It seems to have the vandals baffled - where would you insert the word "penis" in this article, in an objectionable way? For once, the vandals have to stop and think about it... At the same time, it shows that such topics can be dealt with in an Encyclopedia; similar topics can use this as a comparison - if they aren't at least this well hashed out, they may not be worth having as a Wikipedia article. (My 2¢.) --Connel MacKenzie - wikt 03:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. I'm pleasantly surprised at how little vandalism there's been, actually. I guess it's more thrilling to add vulgarity to an article about the US Constitution. Anchoress 04:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:NOT censored and may contain objectionable material. How else could an article like Penis or Fuck exist in a comprehensive encyclopedia? See also Wikipedia:Content disclaimer. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 02:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Could be worse - analingus or something as FA. --Wooty Woot? contribs 03:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The more exposure that people have to sexuality, the better the world would be. This is a well written and factual article about one aspect of that. It doesn't make moralistic judgements about sexuality, it merely states the facts about erotic depictions. This is one of the best examples of a featured article I have seen recently. Not a single offensive or obscene image, well referenced and historically accurate while covering what is apparently a sensitive topic for some people. Atom 08:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No I think this is appropriate and that we should not censor this article. We should not bring adult topics down to children topics. Since we feature articles on war, lets not make sexual topics any different. Bronayur 16:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

User:69.67.230.47, I'm sorry, would you rather NASCAR, or Christianity be the featured article? There is nothing wrong with this article. Wikipedia is not censored, and nor should education in general be censored. Secondly, the assumption that 50-60 years ago 'kids knew better' is quite frankly a lie. Age of consent laws were LOWER then, and as for STDs not being around everywhere -- ever heard of Syphilis? Darkahn 16:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This si completely unsuitable for use as a featured article. It has been blocked from my school all day thanks to the words used. This has severely hindered me and my classmates pace of work. it is too late now, but something should have been done to stop this in the first place. Yes, the article may be very well structured and sourced, and yes its content may well be good, but his does not make up for how inappropiate it is. --Chickenfeed9 18:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Complain to your head of IT and/or headmaster. Samsara (talk • contribs) 18:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

There are over 1.5 million articles to choose from for the featured article of the day, why put such a salacious article on the front page that will for sure upset someone, and turn them off to wikipedia who might otherwise make a positive contribuitation to this great site? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.29.72.145 (talk • contribs)

Actually there are only about 1000 articles that are featured articles and are candidates for this slot on the main page. If this kind of academically researched content turns you off, then don't read it. pschemp | talk 20:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

the Venus of Willendorf really shouldn't be in here

dudes, seriously, fertility and sex may go hand in hand, but when you're talking about erotic goodness specifically, i think it's reasonable to not have a picture of a fertility symbol. it's simple logic the way i see it. can i please remove the image? AceGT09

We are not just talking about things that people used specifically to jerk off too. The Greek and Roman images fall under the same category. This isn't about the modern definition of erotica, it is about everything in history that has erotic connotations. They are erotic in nature and so is the Venus. Its an important piece of the human history this article covers. You may not remove the image. pschemp | talk 04:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Remove it again and you will be blocked. pschemp | talk 04:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree with pschemp. Especially in terms of ancient Greek culture, Venus was practically the definition of erotic. Doc Tropics 04:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

What does the Venus of Willendorf have to do with Greece? I think AceGTO9 has a defensible point. based purely on the Venus' entry there appears to be enough disagreement about its purpose to question its inclusion here Iconoclastodon 06:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't except that both cultures made depictions with erotic content that we meant for other things than jerking off. Doc just got a little mixed up. It is still, one of the earliest and most famous depictions of a human being that has erotic content and should therefore stay. It has even become iconic. pschemp | talk 06:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This seems a little hand-waving to me. Its entry as an erotic depiction hardens to a distortionary level one of many theories about its purpose. On your definition we may as well include depictions of the Madonna. This is certainly worth more consideration than you are giving it. Your tone seems unusually contemptuous. There are issues here that don't require confusion arising from anachronism, a narrow concept of erotica, or a rude gut feeling that she isn't 'hot'. There is simply a lot of disagreement about what the Willendorf figure is. Iconoclastodon 15:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Please remember this is an overview. By neccessity, it must just highlight important thing in history. The Venus already has its own article where a thourough treatment is appropriate. Here, a mention is all that is needed. There is a lot of disagreement. That's why it is presented here, but no judgements are made in the text. However, it is important and does deserve a mention because it is one of the oldest things we have that could relate to sex and fertility. Notice, this is *NOT* an article about erotica per se, but only a treatment of the images of things that possibly could have been erotic to their respective cultures. pschemp | talk 16:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

whatever man, your faulty logic wins cause you're a admin i guess. i'm not interested in starting a revert war. also, i only removed it the third time because you said on this talk page that i could, after you called me a "lazy mexican" then it dissapeared. AceGT09

Um yes, if you check the history of the page that was user:70.69.169.212 making remarks and signing my name to them, not me. I never said you could remove it, that was a vandal being an imposter and I see you were fooled by that. (Click on history at the top and you can see where he added that). I realize you are a new user, this is why I'm pointing that out. And the reason you can't remove it is not because I'm an admin, but because there is no consensus to do so. pschemp | talk 04:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

sorry dude, my bad. but i still think you're wrong about the Venus thing, just because fertility implies sex, doesn't mean it's an erotic depiction. but i have no interest in starting a revert war, especially if you're gonna threaten me with blockage. i was just trying to streamline the article abit, something this entire site needs. AceGT09

thank you for your concern. We'll just have to agree to disagree about this. pschemp | talk 05:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

In AceGT09's defense, there were some crazy edits posted, and several were fraudulently tagged with pschemp's name. We should extend some AGF under the circumstances. Of course, you're still totally wrong, dude, like, totally : ) Doc Tropics 05:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yup, that's what I was trying to communicate up there...that I realized he got taken by the vandal after he posted. The only reason I talked about blocking was before I realized that. pschemp | talk 05:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The article doesn't cover it, but maybe your idea of erotic and another persons idea may differ? Maybe the way people looked at erotica in the past, and the way our culture looks at it today is different? Maybe the way that many men in our culture look at erotica is different than how many women look at it? Besides, then, and now, Venus is often considered an erotic figure, not a fertility figure. Also your delineation that something representing fertility can't be erotic has little relevance to ancient greek culture. Maybe you should read the article and learn more about how other people and cultures viewed erotica rather than saying that ancient cultures, or people who accurately discuss that aren't in alignment with the way that teen-aged white males living in southern Caifornia in the 21st century view sexuality. Atom 08:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a good example of how the original act of NAMING the Willendorf figure 'Venus' has forever loaded perceptions of it. You have been primed to see it a particular way because of an anachronism, and so, in precisely the way you describe, your perception of what is erotica is couched in a time and place inappropriate to the object you observe. Iconoclastodon 15:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The text does not make judgements on the figure. That has been done by the people posting on the talk page. I have simply included it as important and related to the material. Nowhere does the article attempt to define what erotica is, it simply showcases the human history of depictions that could be related to sexuality. pschemp | talk 16:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Tale of Genji?

It'd be nice to get a sentence on the Tale of Genji -- at the root of Japanese literature and pretty darned steamy. I'm trying to pull one together, but I guess I need a cite on its notability, which I don't have to hand. Dybryd 04:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

If its that important it should probably mostly stay at its own article. This is meant to be an overview only. But a sentence would be ok. pschemp | talk 04:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Tale of Genji is also notable as one of the earliest example of a female writer writing about erotic tales too. Even today, too many people readily assume that erotic works will only be made by male creators for the interest of male population. It should also be noted that the story was accepted and became so popular that an Heian era noble Fujiwara no Shunzei lamented anyone not to have read it would be a failure as a poet. This is a stark difference with Victorian-era ethics and the way it looked down on eroticism as "low" things. --Revth 06:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Venus of Willendorf

The text explicitly refers to it as a fertility symbol, so I don't know where the problem is. Samsara (talk • contribs) 04:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

it seems senseless to me to include a fertility symbol with erotic depiction. it makes no sense. AceGT09

Sometimes I need to read an article twice before I understand it. Samsara (talk • contribs) 04:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Venus of Willendorf was erotic in its own day; it was used as a talisman to encourage and enhance sexual behavior. If that isn't erotic, then tell me what is! —Cuiviénen 14:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Its actual use is unknown, and is a subject od debate. Iconoclastodon 15:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. So we present the facts about it and that's enough. The article doesn't make judgements about it.pschemp | talk 16:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Victorians out-pruded by the Japanese?

The article states on a number of occasions that the Victorians are to blame for banning pornography, but according to ukiyo-e, Sex was not a sanctioned subject either, but continually appeared in ukiyo-e prints. Artists and publishers were sometimes punished for creating these sexually explicit shunga. The first ukiyo-e prints date from 1670. Jpatokal 05:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

they were punished, but no actual laws were passed. Its a technical distinction. pschemp | talk 05:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a source for this odd-sounding claim? The Tokugawa (Edo) shogunate was quite big on laws and their enforcement. Jpatokal 10:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

According to the Japanese wikipedia [2]:

また、井原西鶴の浮世草子、好色一代男が大流行し、好色物と呼ばれるジャンルが流行る。それにより、春画の需要が増える。 しかし享保七年好色本が禁止される。 それでも需要があるためこれより非公開で販売されることとなる。 そして、錦絵の開発により、多色刷りの春画が寛政のころから本格的に登場しだした。

But in the seventh year of Kyoho (ed: 1722 AD) koshokubon (ed: erotic/pornographic books, the predecessor of shunga) were banned.

A slightly more authoritative source scrounged on the Net [3]:

江戸時代には大きな出版取締が三度ある。その最初は１７２２（享保７）年の好色本禁令で、それまで公然と著者や絵師・版元の名前をあらわして店頭販売が許されていた浮世草子の好色本や枕絵・春画本類は絶版となった。

In the Edo period significant publishing controls were imposed three times. The first was, in 1722 (Kyoho 7), the koshokubon kinrei (koshokubon prohibition order), after which the usage of real names for artists and publishers stopped, over-the-counter sales of koshokubon were no longer tolerated and koshukubon, shunga-e and makura-e went out of print.

浮世絵春画名品集成 (roughly, "Ukiyo-e and Shunga Famous Works Collection"), 第１０巻 國貞 (Volume 10: Kunisada) by 林　美一 (Hayashi Yoshikazu). Jpatokal 10:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

floppies

i recall kids circulating 5.25 floppies of porn images and short animations of low quality. should be mentioned. --Leladax 05:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

We'll need a source and a citation for that. Your memory is not an approved Wikipedia source. pschemp | talk 05:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

mentioned meaning mentioned without breaking any wikipedia rules. jeez. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.72.129 (talk • contribs)

1857 Webster's definition -- "obscene"?

Obscene or "associated with obscentity" seems an odd description - the definition is:

"Licentious painting or literature; especially, the painting anciently employed to decorate the walls of rooms devoted to bacchanalian orgies."

Licentious isn't a synonym for obscene, even in period. In fact, in period it sounds like a remarkably non-judgmental definition. Can I delete the adjective/phrase? Dybryd 05:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No, its a direct quote! and sourced. It means "1 : lacking legal or moral restraints; especially : disregarding sexual restraints" that makes perfect sense. But I copied the def from the actual book, so changing a direct quote is not logical. pschemp | talk 05:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I meant delete the word "obscene," not the Webster's def. Is that characterization directly quoted from Chambers' book? Dybryd 06:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It does seem like an odd characterization. Describing the definition itself is obscene made me expect it was going to use explicit terminology, when it was quite middle-of-the-road even by Victorian standards. --Saforrest 06:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

That wasn't the intent of the wording. It didn't meant that the actual defintion was obscene, the intent was to refer to the definition that now encompasses obscenity. I've reworded this to make that completely clear. pschemp | talk 06:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Who were "the Victorians" ?

I find this bit somewhat confusing:

When large scale excavations of Pompeii were undertaken in the 1860s, much of the erotic art of the Romans came to light, shocking the Victorians who saw themselves as the intellectual heirs of the Roman Empire. They did not know what to do with the frank depictions of sexuality, and endeavored to hide them away from everyone but upper class scholars. The movable objects were locked away in the Secret Museum in Naples, Italy and what could not be removed was covered and cordoned off so as to not corrupt the sensibilities of women, children and the working class.

When I hear "the Victorians" I usually think of a certain social class from Britain (and often from the British Empire at large) during the Victorian Era. This is, to me, especially reinforced by the bit about how the Victorians "saw themselves as the intellectual heirs of the Roman Empire", because the British during the Victorian period saw themselves as the new Romans in many ways: hence the emphasis on classical education, popularization of the idea of Pax Britannica, etc.

It is a bit confusing to then see "Victorians" it used in an apparently Italian context. Was it Italians or British who didn't know what to do with the sexy pictures, and locked them up? If the Brits, what did they have to do with a secret museum in Naples? If the Italians, why are we calling them "Victorians"? --Saforrest 06:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It was both. The definition of Victorian does not stipulate that they must be British: "A person living, or born in that period, or exhibiting characteristics of that period". It is merely a specific period of time. The influence of the Victorian morality was so great that most of Europe was dealing with the same morals, and especially in academia, where attitudes were very much alike across nations. The Italians locked it up, but it was the reaction of all the Victorian scholars that prompted this. All the intelligentsia of the time thought themselves heirs to the cultural legacy of the Roman empire. Nationality had little to do with it. pschemp | talk 06:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Historic attitudes : Incongruous dates?

I noticed the following two statements in the section on "Historic attitudes regarding erotic depictions"

• When large scale excavations of Pompeii were undertaken in the 1860s, much of the erotic art of the Romans came to light,...
• ...Soon after, England's (and the world's) first laws criminalising pornography were enacted with the passage of the Obscene Publications Act of 1857.

There seems to be a chronological contradiction (however slight). Comments? FMalan 06:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok if you read carefully it says that large scale excavations were undertaking in the 1860s, but the excavations actually started in 1748 (just not large scale). So objects were already known that were a factor in the 1857 law. Let me see if I can reword this. pschemp | talk 06:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I just removed the words "soon after". At one time in their lives those sentences were in different paragraphs in a different order, but shuffling got them out of whack. Fixed now. pschemp | talk 06:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

civilization vs. civilisation

Overnight (UK time) there were many edit wars regarding the spelling of civilization; most of the reverts to the author's preferred spelling referenced a debate on this talk page, however the said discussion is somewhat hidden, living in the Images section. Given that the US has now woken up again, these edit wars are likely to start again (indeed they have started again), so I'm starting this more obvious section to discuss the subject. For convenience, here's a cut & paste of the relevant talk:

Also, for those who keep changing my spelling of civilisation, please see here. It is a valid spelling. Thank you. pschemp | talk 00:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Why not use the more common spelling for consistency's sake? Nimrand 01:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The rule around here is to retain the spelling of the original contributor as a sign of respect. Thank you. Samsara (talk • contribs) 01:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

What I, personally, am curious about is why pschemp is refusing to allow the use of -ization? Is it a mistaken belief that the use of the 'z' is an Americanism?

Given that the use of -isation isn't a spelling mistake or typo, then Samsara's comment probably takes precedence, but it's a bit bemusing to not allow a spelling that's practically mandated in AmE, and perfectly acceptable in BrE (in fact, the use of 'z' is preferred by OED amongst other authorities) Carre 14:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

We respect the spelling choice of the original contributor. Wikipedia has a guideline to that effect. Samsara (talk • contribs) 14:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, thank you - if you read what I wrote, you'll see that I referenced your comment, and also stated it probably takes precedence in the absence of a spelling mistake. However, if such a spelling choice becomes the subject of an edit war then surely it needs to be properly discussed. Many editors have just come along and changed the main article, only to have their change reverted, so a proper discussion should be held (my opinion - other opinions are available). Carre 14:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

There isn't much more to say about it really. People change spellings all the time. A very small proportion of Wikipedia contributors actually add significant amounts of content. If people are going to ignore two inline comments either side of the offending text passage, they're not going to be stopped by any consensus reached on the talk page. Samsara (talk • contribs) 14:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Samsara and Pschemp are correct. I run into this often in articles. Either UK (British, Australian, New Zealand, South African, Etc.) spelling or U.S. spellings are correct. If an article is written with either, future edits should follow that standard. Does that make sense? Well, it doesn't matter, that is the standard that Wikipedia editors follow by policy. Sometimes an article is primarily written by one author. In this case that has happened, and PSchemp is the primary author. She has done an incredible amount of work on this, and as far as I am concerned, her lead should be followed as to the development and maintenance for a good period of time. (That isn't policy, only proper respect.) When an article is older, and has no primary author, then changing from one type of spelling to another needs to have some justification, and a consensus of participating editors. From what I can see, most of the people who are changing the spelling against the existing standard are new or non editors, and don't understand the policy. The people reverting seem to be primarily experienced editors. That should give people a clue. Also, editor Pschemp (as I understand) is an American, who refreshingly is not ethnocentric in orientation. If she chooses British spelling, then that's good enough for me. Atom 15:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not arguing (take, for example, Wikipedia_talk:Today's_featured_article#civilization, where you'll see I defended the use of -isation) - I just put this section in the talk page because the previous mention of it was a bit hidden, and so not obvious; with the US now awake there are likely to be more edits (although I notice Samsara's recent edit to make the distinction more obvious, which will hopefully lessen the incident of edit war). That said, I'd like to point out again that the use of -ization is not purely the US spelling - it is just as much a British spelling as -isation: -isation is en-GB, whereas -ization is Oxford spelling (en-GB-oed, based on Oxford English Dictionary's practice) as well as en-US. Incidentally, I presume the policy Samsara refers to is WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English, and as such it is policy that Pschemp's lead be followed :) (BTW, following that MOS, the use of 'color' in the article should be changed ;) ) Carre 15:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

NB (and yes, I am belabouring the point), if "civilisations" is required by Pschemp, then following the MOS "stylized", "legalized" and organized" also all need changing to use the -ise suffix instead of the -ize, since the very first requirement of the MOS is for consistency throughout an article. Carre 17:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You know what? I'd appreciate it if you'd just leave it. I write with a mishmash and its rude to go around saying that one or the other is correct. Civilisations can be spelled either way in either country. I happen to think that my way of spelling *is* consistent since i don't spell the same word two different ways in an artilce. And you, you are belaboring a point no one else cares about. If the same word was spelled two different ways at different points, you would have an arguement, but it isn't. Stop imposing your spelling conventions on the artilce. It is perfectly comprehensible to all English speakers as it is. Please find something productive to obsess about. pschemp | talk 17:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I see - so it's ok to cite the MOS to defend the use of civilisation, but not ok to use that same MOS, and the same use of en-GB when it contradicts your use of the language? You'll also note that I have never said one or the other is correct; As far as British English is concerned, either is correct - it was you that insisted on the use of the -ise suffix (so who's imposing whose spelling conventions?), American English that insists that the -ize suffix is correct, and the MOS that insists that an article is consistent (WP:MOS#National varieties of English for consistency and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (spelling) for en-GB use). I actually think this is a great article, and recognize (oops, another -ize) the work you've put into it; however, if you live by MOS, then live by it! But yes, I will 'just leave it'. Carre 17:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. pschemp | talk 18:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

All this jibba jabba spent on one character, on an issue that's been discussed a billion times in the past... ugh.— BRIAN0918 • 2006-11-30 19:35Z

The huge yelling comment in the edit text about not changing the spelling clutters the text too much. Also, people are changing the spelling anyway, and I would not be surprised if people who had not even thought of it were BEANSed into it by the warning. There is no reason to edit war over this matter; you can change the spelling back when the article is no longer on the front page. —Centrx→talk • 21:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Excellent point. I just did a revert myself, but this looks silly. I agree we should just let things go until it's off the front page. Doc Tropics 21:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The temples of India

Could anyone include information on the temples of India such as (Khajuraho) that include erotic depictions along with appropriate pictures? Bronayur 16:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't have any free pictures of this, but I am planning on adding some more info about them. pschemp | talk 18:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

New subsection: Asian fiction

I've typed up a couple of sentences on important erotic novels in Japan and China. Posting them here first for a check before adding them to the article. One question: for the Chinese novel, I've simply listed the translator and commentator as the author - what's the correct way to render this?

In both China and Japan, eroticism played a prominent role in the development of the novel. The Tale of Genji, the work by an eleventh-century Japanese noblewoman that is often called “the world’s first novel,” traces the many affairs of its hero in discreet but carnal language. From sixteenth-century China, the still more explicit novel The Plum in the Golden Vase has been called one of the four great classical novels of Chinese literature. The Tale of Genji has been celebrated in Japan since it was written, but The Plum in the Golden Vase was suppressed as pornography for much of its history, and replaced on the list of four classics.

Looks good to me. Take the dashes out of the ISBNs though. They aren't needed. pschemp | talk 19:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! In it goes. Dybryd 19:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

PLZ Admins

Could please someone delete this crap in the article: In early times, erotic depictions were often a subset of the indigenous or religious art of using the force among jedi knights and stuff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.226.102.130 (talk • contribs)

It's not there to be deleted.--Kchase T 20:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I think he was referring to previous vandalism that has already been removed. In the future anon, you can remove it yourself if you see it, no admin needed. pschemp | talk 20:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Poor reliability of sources

It looks like a lot of this article is sourced to Pornography: The Secret History of Civilization, which is a video made by people in the pornography industry. This is not a reliable source for anything except perhaps the more recent Internet and video sections. I already corrected a stupid error in a paragraph sourced to this text which would have been detected easily if there were any serious research or editorial process associated with this source. How much of this article was sourced from this text and was all the information from this single source checked in other sources? Even with highly reliable sources, it is good to check it and have multiple sources for statements, and this is not a very reliable source. —Centrx→talk • 21:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

All of the text is referenced to more than one source when possible. You can see that listed at the end of each paragraph. That documentary uses experts in the field for each of its assertations and I've independently cited those experts and their works too. This was not produced by the pornography industry but rather by a respsected publisher of video documentaries. It is a perfectly reliable source. In fact it was made by using a series of interviews with experts in the respective fields. For example the information for the Romans contained in the documentary comes directly from interviews with this guy and his book, a respected researcher and author in the field: {cite book| last = Clarke| first = John R.| title = Roman Sex: 100 B.C. to A.D. 250| publisher = Harry N. Abrams| date = April 2003| location = New York| pages = 168| url = http://www.amazon.com/Roman-Sex-100-B-C-250/dp/B000F9RK72/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/102-1716462-3231355?ie=UTF8%7C id = ISBN 0810942631 }. Your accusations that this is unreliable are ridiculous, and if you actually watch the documentary, unprovable. Additionally, for someone who has been around for so long, you should know that simply dumping urls with ref tags into an article is not the proper way to cite sources. pschemp | talk 21:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Are the porn stars just used as "stars" to make the film popular? It would be best to have sources from interviews have specific mention of who made the statement, as that does establish the authority of it is established and is helpful for someone looking to get to the source on a topic, but that might be more work than anyone is willing to do. In lieu of that, it would be better to have the "authors" be listed as the editor or director or whomever was directly behind the film, rather than people who are irrelevant to most of the information. Regarding the references, I explained on my talk page the situation with those sources; I am not "dumping". —Centrx→talk • 21:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You are smart enough to come up with a work around, why didn't you just do so to begin with? pschemp | talk 22:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

A great mass of code could be added to the template, but this would take a substantial amount of time, and would go largely unused. Editing an article does not have as a prerequisite spending perhaps hours fiddling with ParserFunctions. Also, it is impossible for all the possibilities of human knowledge to fit in a template (This is a serious problem with people stuffing "facts" into infoboxes that are thereby contorted into falsehood or something misleading, when they can be accurately and plainly stated in the article). Style guides which contain pages upon pages of specifications and examples for citing bibliographic references have, alongside all that rigid formatting, the wise recommendation and documentation of the common practice that some bibliographic information cannot be fitted into these formats and that it nevertheless must be included, whether approximately according to standard form previously delineated or whether in an appended English-language sentence that explains the nature of the source. —Centrx→talk • 22:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

If I took your suggestion, every paragraph would look like this:

There are numerous sexually explicit paintings and sculpture from the ruined Roman buildings in Pompeii and Herculaneum but the original purposes of the depictions can vary. On one hand, in the "Villa of the Mysteries", there is a ritual flagellation scene that is clearly associated with a religious cult and this image can be seen as having religious significance rather than sexual. On the other hand, graphic paintings in a brothel advertise sexual services in murals above each door. In Pompeii, phalli and testicles engraved in the sidewalks were created to aid visitors in finding their way by pointing to the prostitution and entertainment district as well as general decoration. The Romans considered depictions of sex to be decoration in good taste, and indeed the pictures reflect the sexual mores and practices of their culture. Sex acts that were considered taboo (such as those that defiled the purity of the mouth) were depicted in baths for comic effect. Large phalluses were often used near entryways, for the phallus was a good luck charm, and the carvings were common in homes. One of the first objects excavated when the complex was discovered was a marble statue showing the god Pan having sex with a goat, a detailed depiction of bestiality considered so obscene that it is not on public display to this day and remains in the Secret Museum in Naples.

Which is utterly ridiculous. That *is* insane clutter. Especially if you look at it in the editing mode. Refs at the end are a compromise with the mediawiki software capability we have right now. I had to pick the most logical solution. pschemp | talk 22:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

There is a problem with the current Cite.php references system, as it thoroughly clutters the text in the edit window. Template:Ref is a solution to this. Over-all, the references system ultimately needs to be split into references that contain all the publishing information and other bibliographic information, and citations that have any particular information and that are linked to the bibliographic references. Also, footnotes should be changed so that you could have any number of sources (and ideally, we do want as many references as possible), while having there be only superscript number that refers to the whole collection for any one fact. Another possibility is a "side-by-side" system so that references would not be in the text of the content at all, but rather in a special associated page that corresponds directly with each part of the main article. This would also be useful for making notes about specific areas and collaborative editing, whereas currently all we have is a usually chronological talk page where old comments pile up in archives by the hundreds.

The problem with having citations at the end of the paragraph is that there is no way to determine which statement came from which source. Someone reading or editing the article who wants to ascertain the reliability of some information or who wants to go directly to the original source for further research (whether for personal reasons or to add to or otherwise improve the article) must, if sources are combined at the end of a paragraph, search through every one of them, when the specific information sought was only in one of them (and would ideally be referenced by page number). Also, while an article may now be closely watched and each edit checked for sources and accuracy, this is not sustainable. It is impossible for a human to watch an article in perpetuity, and once anyone is able to make an edit without it being individually verified by someone watching, the added information is suddenly in the middle of a "referenced" paragraph; no longer, then, is every statement referenced and, even worse, it is difficult to see that there are unreferenced statements. —Centrx→talk • 22:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm well aware of that. However I don't think template:ref is any better. I think the refs at the end, with a note so people know this is fine. If they are adding anything, they should be adding a source with it too. Actually the best way is to have the ref txt hidden. There is a feature request for this currently. In the meantime, this will do, I'm not leaving the project anytime soon. pschemp | talk 22:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Pornography was legalized in the Netherlands in 1969

And before that in Denmark in 1967 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.73.46.28 (talk • contribs)

Indeed. And it was the legalization in the Netherlands that prompted the explosion of the genre due to the people working in that country. No claim is made that it was the first, just the most important. pschemp | talk 21:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Why no BC on caption for image?

I noticed the image caption for the greek amphora said "5th century" the other day. I edited it to add a BC, which is obviously correct (and the same image is labeled elsewhere as being from 5th century BC). But it was reverted. What the hell? Are you assuming that BC is implicit? --Robbrown 21:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I personally did not revert that. Search the edit history and complain to whomever did. Then put it it back in if its necessary. No need to get so upset. pschemp | talk 22:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)