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Important information

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Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

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Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
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Edit this section for new requests

Vacio

Vacio (talk · contribs) is involved in edit warring in Armenia - Azerbaijan related articles, which is the area covered by the arbcom cases Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. He reverts the articles to his preferred version without any consensus with other involved editors. Within the last 7 days he made 3 rvs on Mihranids: [1] [2] [3], another 3 on Caucasian Albania: [4] [5] [6] and a few more on Artsakh a week before. While the rv parole me and other users were placed on a year ago has expired, I voluntarily agreed to stick to it, and the admins recommended other users editing the arbcom ruling covered area do the same. [7] In a situation when everyone else voluntarily sticks to 1RR, such behavior by Vacio is disruptive, and in my opinion this user should be placed on the same editing restrictions as others. --Grandmaster (talk) 11:25, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request for preventative topic ban under the Digwuren discretionary sanctions

Petri Krohn (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) was banned from Wikipedia for one year, for his part for attempting to incite ethnic hatred against Estonian editors and turning Wikipedia into an ugly battleground. The fallout of Krohn's disruption has been the departure of three excellent Estonian editors from Wikipedia. He is due to return in October 2008.

During the period of his ban, Petri Krohn has continued his anti-Estonian rhetoric that earned him his original Wikipedia ban: Within blog space:

May 2008, where he rails against the mainstream view that Estonia was occupied by the Soviet Union and agitates against Estonian membership of NATO. English translation here
August 2008, where he uses the conflict between Russian and Georgia as an opportunity to spray anti-Estonian hate speech, in particular that Estonia glorifies Nazism. English translation here
August 2008, where he characterises Estonia as a fascist apartheid state created by a secret coup d'état by the late Lennart Meri and former prime-minister Mart Laar. English translation here
September 2008, where he again claims Aparthied is at the heart of Estonian independence, English translation here

and also in the Finnish and Estonian press via the "letters to the editor" pages:

Here he characterises Estonia as a fascist apartheid state

While I respect his right to free speech, however extreme it may be, Wikipedia is not the venue for the promotion and publication of these personal viewpoints. Given the evidence presented above of his apparent need to voice his strident hate speech in a number of off-wiki forums, and his previous resort to really nasty slurs on-wiki, I have no doubt that he will not be able to restrain himself from bringing his battle on-wiki again.

Therefore a topic ban in all articles covered by WikiProject Estonia and WikiProject Soviet Union is requested as the best option to preserve the relative harmony that now exists within these topics areas and is a necessary preventative measure to ensure that Wikipedia is not turned back into the ugly battle field that it became when Krohn was actively pushing his extremist viewpoints, which risks driving away the remaining handful of Estonian editors that continue to contribute to Wikipedia. Martintg (talk) 04:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Martin here, but I think it would be nice if other admins were to comment. There is an issue of precedent here: further, what then do we do with Petri's old sparring partner Digwuren (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)? Admittedly, Digwuren is somewhat less of a nutter than Petri, but he was also pretty awful in his time here. Moreschi (talk) 12:18, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Compare Krohn's anti-Estonian bile above to Digwuren's recent off-wiki activities here. There is no comparison between the two, Krohn clearly has an axe to grind, while Digwuren does not. The existing discretionary sanctions regime as it applies to all of us would be sufficient in the case of Digwuren. Martintg (talk) 12:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair point. Say a six-month topic-ban for Krohn, to see if he can edit peacefully elsewhere, while discretionary sanctions deal with Digwuren if he starts causing problems? Moreschi (talk) 12:54, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To me this discussion seems to lack the proper ripeness. If he's going to cause a problem, deal with it when it happens, unless you think some sort of permanent damage would be caused in the minutes and hours before an admin is on hand.--Tznkai (talk) 13:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I never could took the fringe theories Petri Krohn has been supporting seriously but in case he is going push his extremist POV on WP again, it surely is not going to be funny. But then again, taking preventative measures doesn't feel right either. There are simply too many eyes on this guy that hopefully prevent him doing too much damage this time. Regarding Digwuren, the way I see it, he became "awful" only because Petri Krohn's behavior was tolerated for such a long time on WP. Since nothing was done about Krohn, the only way to stop him was to become just like him. And that was exactly what Digwuren did, I think he took willingly the role of being collateral damage in a BATTLEGROUND created by Krohn.--Termer (talk) 15:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A temporary topic ban (six months would be adequate) is only meant as a precautionary measure for the benefit of Krohn, Digwuren and Wikipedia. It would ease the transition back into Wiki-world. Krohn has clearly built up a fair amount of anger against Estonia in the recent months. Just as in a Fire triangle where separating either oxygen, fuel or heat will prevent a fire, so a topic ban would remove a source of friction and prevent something blowing up immediately. While in theory an admin could act within hours of some incident, experience has shown that the issues can become muddied and confused in the ensuing heated debate, and thus it may take days, if at all, before action is taken. A temporary topic ban for Krohn would give everyone concerned some breathing space, some time to adjust and get some positive runs on the board for both Krohn and Digwuren. Martintg (talk) 20:09, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think my, and I suspect Termer's unease with premptive measures could be allayed if Krohn willingly took the topic ban. Any chance?--Tznkai (talk) 20:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

None, based on those blog posts. For the same reason (the blog posts) I do think a pre-emptive six months off EE articles is a good idea. Moreschi (talk) 20:18, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say, after first sign of trouble, lets say an attempted edit warring by Krohn, have him banned from "EE related" subjects indefinitely, instead of limiting his editing privileges preventively. So far nobody even can tell if he plans returning to WP. But up to you, keeping good faith and helping the guy to ease his transition back into Wiki-world, so that WP community would act like an anger management program for his benefit... I wouldn't have any problems with it in case you really think that easing someone's anger issues is something that the WP community should take care of.--Termer (talk) 20:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am afraid that the Digwuren's return will become a nightmare similar only to Molobo's last return from his year long block. That said, he served his time and perhaps his return may prove my assumption wrong. That said, restricting Petri in any way before he commits any violation seems overboard. If any of them would return to their old ways, the blocks should be swift. But they served their time and both should be given a chance to demonstrate that their editing is not a concern anymore. --Irpen 20:33, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would be great if Krohn willingly took a topic ban. But if he refuses, what does that say about his intent, given his recently published views on his blog and past performance. If I had an axe to grind and I intended to wield it, I would certainly object to any such measure too. Martintg (talk) 20:58, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If an editor has an axe to grind, then he does not like a topic ban. Petri Krohn does not like a topic ban. Therefore, Petri Krohn has an axe to grind (and deserves a topic ban). Affirming the consequent. Do you think all editors who do not want a topic ban have an axe to grind? Ask yourself: "Would I like a topic ban?" This is no approval or disapproval of a topic ban for Petri Krohn (I do not know him, a topic ban may or may not be a good thing here and I don't have a crystal ball), just an attempt to get the logic back on track. Sciurinæ (talk) 00:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, however external evidence provided above has established he has an axe to grind. There is no need to prove a premise via logic (or logical fallacy), empirical observation has established it as fact, hence your observation regarding "Affirming the consequent" is not wholly applicable here. I mean, would you spend your spare time writing poisonous blogs and letters to newspaper editors about the "fascist apartheid regime of Nazi-glorifying X-onians", while being banned from Wikipedia for making poisonous edits about the same "fascist apartheid regime of Nazi-glorifying X-onians"? Don't tell me this is not axe grinding. Martintg (talk) 00:55, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that remark of his would be offensive. Wouldn't it still be worth a thought that he managed to avoid Estonian-related areas by himself for three months until he was blocked (correct me if I'm wrong) without needing a topic-ban? I think Irpen's comment above appears to wrap it up quite nicely and fairly. Sciurinæ (talk) 04:18, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some say his avoidance of Estonia related articles back then was an attempt to remain under the radar while an active ArbCom case in which he was subject was in progress. As for Irpen's opinion, he has a tendency to doggedly defend disruptive editors such as Ilya1166(User:Miyokan) [8] and User:RJ CG(who btw is currently serving a 2 month ban) against admin intervention [9] [10] while at the same time attempting for the umpteeth time to sanction a very productive editor [11], so I would have to question his judgment. That said, perhaps someone could ask Krohn if he was willing to voluntarily restrict himself from editing Estonia-related articles. As it stands, his off-wiki activities have destroyed any notion that his future edits could be considered NPOV. Martintg (talk) 00:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

His motivation for avoiding Estonian-related articles doesn't matter at all. The point remains that he did so without needing a formal ruling to do so. I don't see where Irpen is defending him - on the contrary, please read his comment again - and it wouldn't matter. It makes more sense to address what Irpen said than who he is supposed to be. Sciurinæ (talk) 02:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't get your point. You seem to be saying: having avoided the topic area in the past without need for a formal ruling he could thus similarly avoid it again in the future? If that is the case, mutatis mutandis: having disrupted a topic area in the past he could thus similarly disrupt it again in the future. Is this what you are saying here? I was responding to your personal judgment that Irpen's comments were "fair" with my own personal judgment that Irpen's comments were not fair, citing his obvious partisanship. If my prior comments regarding Irpen came across as a personal attack, then I apologise. Martintg (talk) 03:30, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My point was that he may not be the paradigm of a lemming that needs an extra leash after a block for behaviour about 14 months ago to not jump off a cliff when the block is over. If he gets disruptive again, I'm sure you will be the first to point at it. I do not see where I'm making a judgment about comments of Irpen in general (I would never blindly trust anyone's every word, not even Jimbo's) and I clearly said "Irpen's comment above". Making up an additional story about how you were just doubting my general approval of all of Irpen's comments in all affairs (which I don't have) makes it much worse and you're still trying to drive home the message about "Irpen's obvious partisanship". This comment ends the topic for me: "Restricting Petri in any way before he commits any violation seems overboard. If any of them would return to their old ways, the blocks should be swift. But they served their time and both should be given a chance to demonstrate that their editing is not a concern anymore." Sciurinæ (talk) 23:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Martin is it absolutely necessary to repeat the same unfounded accusations of bad faith of Irpen on all the possible forums, over and over again. It is sort of taxing, you know Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alex, can we all keep this current request on topic. If you believe I've repeated "the same unfounded accusations of bad faith of Irpen on all the possible forums, over and over again", and I don't believe I have, you can post the relevant diffs in the appropriate forum and if other eyes concur, I will stand corrected and issue an appropriate apology. Martintg (talk) 06:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The logic here makes my head hurt. Firstly, Martintg quotes Krohn's off-wiki comments to conclude that Wikipedia is not the venue for such promotion of personal viewpoints. (No, it's not and off-wiki forums have in fact been the venues for them.) And secondly, Martintg cites Krohn's "really nasty slurs on-Wiki", that the ArbCom already sanctioned him for. And with this "evidence" he wants a topic ban? Seriously? Let Krohn (and, indeed, Digwuren) return and do something actually sanctionable before sanctioning him. Good faith is to be presumed after an editor has served his "sentence", and, as Tznkai points out, permanent damage can hardly be caused in the minutes and hours before an admin is at hand.

Furthermore: it's ridiculous for Martintg to get on his high horse about keeping "this current request on topic" when Alex—very properly—asks him to stop insulting Irpen in this very thread. Martintg, Alex's reproach is on topic with jam on the top, and I join him in it. This is an appropriate forum, so you might see about issuing that apology right here. Bishonen | talk 07:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Points well taken and I can refactor some of my statements above if that is desired. Getting back to the central issue, I still have nagging doubts. My point in presenting data on his external blog activities was to show that his anti-Estonian sentiment that was core to his disruptive behaviour 14 months ago has hardened in recent months. By analogy, we wouldn't allow somebody with strong views and an extremist anti-semite blog edit Jewish related pages on Wikipedia. While in theory blocks could be issued swiftly, previous experience has shown that Petri Krohn enjoys some support within the community, so in practice blocks could be extremely difficult to achieve if his supporters come out of the woodwork and engage in pages and pages of debate with no result.

I don't see what Petri Krohn could possibly contribute to Estonia related articles, other than the same fringe viewpoints that led to his ban, the same fringe viewpoints he continues to strongly hold as demonstrated by his blog and the same fringe viewpoints that will lead to future conflict if he is permitted to edit Estonia related topics. A topic ban covering all articles covered by Wikipedia:WikiProject_Estonia would be immeasurably easier to enforce compared to having to plead every case of disruption after the event, which experience has shown turns into a sh!t fight when supporters get involved. It's not like the Estonia topic area is huge compared with the rest of Wikipedia and a topic ban would ease the blood pressure for all involved, particularly since Petri Krohn's recent one week block for incivility on Finnish Wikipedia in May 30, 2008 [12] (English translation here) is cause for concern. Anyway, I guess if no consensus develops here, I'll ask ArbCom if they will vary the remedy. Martintg (talk) 00:56, 18 September 2008 (UT

Martintg, I am not in the business of extracting apologies as the basic meaning of the term apology makes an extracted one meaningless. What you posted already, a text-book non-apology apology, just proves the point. I must say I am puzzled by your obsession about myself (as well as Alex Bakharev) that you have been demonstrating for years [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] but your continuing to comment on either of us here does not help you make your case any more convincing.

If Petri is a xenophobe, as you allege, and his edits would show that, he should be banned or, at least, topic banned. That's if he chooses to return. Same should apply to Digwuren, you, me, anyone. We should not tolerate xenophobic edits anywhere in Wikipedia. But what you suggest is not to punish him for any wrongdoing, but to punish him for an intent to make bad edits that you allege he has. This reminds me of the worst excesses of Stalinism when survivors of the horrors of the Leningrad Blockade were arrested by NKVD after the liberation of the area for the intent of treason as the treason charge was not used to the citizens whose place of residence was never occupied by the Nazis. This is the most ridiculous AE proposal I've ever seen. --Irpen 20:53, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Irpen, your first 3 diffs (the first two have nothing to do with you) are all from August 2007 in the lead up to the Digwuren ArbCom which dealt with those issues with zero findings against me and thus the matter is now stale; the 4th diff I expressed my genuine surprise as did User:Folantin, why aren't you beating on his door; the 5th diff shows I placed a neutral notice on a talk page, so what; the 6th diff I merely make an observation that you were attempting to re-open a discussion without any comment as to why; and your last diff (from this current thread) actually contains an apology before Alex, Bishonen or yourself waded in to continue this. Alex's assertion that I stated "the same unfounded accusations of bad faith of Irpen on all the possible forums, over and over again" remains unproven. I'm not continuing anything, but you evidently are.

As to the subject at hand, I don't see it as topic ban as "punishment" against Petri, but rather a restraining order for the benefit of the other editors. I think the community's right to a peaceful collaborative editing environment outweighs Petri Krohn's right to promote his particular fringe view of history or of a people. You say remedies would be swiftly applied, but history has shown, any discussion about Petri Krohn quickly descends into a mud throwing exercise. The guy for some reason evokes strong emotion, so a Estonia topic ban would be a way to preempt that and give the rest of us a break. Martintg (talk) 01:04, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Marting, I have no interest in proving anything to you. I expressed my puzzlement about your such a long-term obsession. Diffs speak by themselves to anyone who cares to click. You offered a non-apology apology and I simply explained why this apology talk does not interest me. As for Petri, I suggest you leave his conduct for others to judge and rather concentrate on moderating your friend Digwuren and help him not to go back to his old ways if he chooses to return. ---Irpen 01:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

Personal attacks by Jossi at Talk:Millennium '73

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

No blocks or bans issued. PhilKnight (talk) 17:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Contentious edit [20]
Relevant case Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat
Notification [21]

→ Jossi engages in his well-known recipe of mischaracterising someone else's edit, concluding that it is a personal attack. Presenting this to this board for assessment. --Francis Schonken (talk) 03:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now Jossi added some incivility towards Will Beback on the same page, calling him "a singular editor, who decided to work in the obscurity of his own private sandbox..."[22] --Francis Schonken (talk) 03:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When one person makes an accusation, check to be sure he himself is not the guilty one. Sometimes it is those whose case is weak who make the most clamour. Piers Anthony

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, by coming to this board I ask the community to check the behaviour of the person that makes those accusations against Will Beback and myself. --Francis Schonken (talk) 03:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You place a request here "to ask the community" and then proceed to refactor my comment from talk? Accuser, judge, and police all nicely wrapped up? I think that you can spare us the drama, please. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the personal attack against Will Beback, as it says in the edit summary [23] --Francis Schonken (talk) 04:01, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what Jossi's problem is, but he's not being very constructive. He's insisting that Millennium '73, a new article concerning Prem Rawat, should not undergo peer review because it's too new, and he's posting unhelpful and rather snide remarks.[24] If he can't work on Prem Rawat articles without getting emotionally involved it'd be better if he avoided the topic. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have expressed my concerns at Wikipedia:Peer_review/Millennium_'73/archive1. You may disagree with me, but what's new? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That page is for making suggestions about the article, not for complaining about an editor. If you have any complaints about me please post them in the appropriate place. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can Jossi explain this comment?[25]

The only extensive work here is by a singular editor, who decided to work in the obscurity of his own private sandbox rather than in the open so that the wiki effort of collaboration can manifest, seems to me to be disregarding this project's principles.

I've never before seen a complaint about posting a complete article, and I'm not aware of any policy, guideline, or even essay that says only incomplete articles should be uploaded. The complaint appears spurious. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is not a single comment here that shows the arbitration case is relevant. So what the hell is it doing here? And if the answer to this question is some derivation of "Jossi sucks" or "People who hate Jossi suck" this will end poorly for that commentator.--Tznkai (talk) 06:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. I see a reminder from Jossi not to use someone's religious affiliation as a means to discredit their views, posted in response to what is a borderline comment in terms of WP:NPA, and an argument about the defined conditions for initiating a peer review. I am not sure the remark Will refers to above was "snide" – when I first read it, I actually took it as a humorous acknowledgement of the tremendous work Will has done in researching this article. Jayen466 10:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi's positive contributions to article talk pages are welcomed. It'd be appreciated if he could focus his comments on the edits rather than the editors, and avoid spurious complaints. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will, is there a point to having this discussion on the Arbitration enforcement page? If not, you can tell him what you appreciate yourself on his talk page. If that fails, try the other methods and structures we have for editors who disagree. Failing to see any reason that this should be here, I believe that the matter is resolved without any violation. I give Francis Schonken the same advice: use the talk pages, use dispute resolution, and stay off of AN, ANI, and most especially AE until you have.--Tznkai (talk) 13:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Tznkai, not enough by far. Jossi was incivil towards Will Beback and myself at Talk:Millennium '73 (e.g., he misquoted me and concluded from that misquote I was engaging in a PA - there was no PA, etc). Jossi was incivil towards Will Beback at Wikipedia:Peer review/Millennium '73/archive1 (e.g. posting the frivolous complaint that Will has been the only one who put extensive work in the Millenium '73 article, followed by a contradictory and no less frivolous complaint that Will should not now seek input from others via the peer review process). Per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat#Article probation ("Prem Rawat and related articles, including their talk pages, are subject to article probation. Any editor may be banned from any or all of the articles, or other reasonably related pages, by an uninvolved administrator for disruptive edits, including, [...] incivility.") that Jossi be banned indefinitely for disruptive editing from these pages:

PS, this page (WP:AE) is the right place for this, see e.g. Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat/Proposed decision#1RR ("... that use can be made of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement ... --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:34, 31 March 2008" — "... exactly the sort of thing I was looking for input on, Francis... --bainer (talk) 08:03, 31 March 2008" — "... I agree with AE as the best forum to alert admins for probation disruption. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:26, 31 March 2008" — etc) --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:28, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Declined The actual enforcement section of the decision puts the article and related articles on article probation, allowing greater latitude on enforcement, not greater sensitivity. Greater sensitivity to incivility that would consider Jossi's statement as a serious personal attack would also consider all of the sniping back and forth here personal attacks, resulting in say, a 48 hour block for all of you. Instead, I use the greater latitude thus: editors are advised to solve their own problems. Furthermore, I advise all editors in this conflict to at least pretend to assume good faith. This is a waste of the bytes it will take up in the archives of AE.--Tznkai (talk) 17:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you accuse me of participating in "sniping back and forth" which I didn't, then I ask you to take that back. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Considering that Francis Schonken's remarks were insulting, Jossi's comment was understandable. If Francis continues to make insulting remarks, then he should be topic banned. PhilKnight (talk) 18:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure which comments were insulting. Francis posted a general warning to pro- and anti editors to avoid putting POV issues ahead of good writing.[26] Is that what you're referring to? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Jossi engages in his well-known recipe of mischaracterising someone else's edit..." is one of the statements I had a problem with. (Also, if something is genuinely well known, you don't need to mention it, its well known.) I've yet to see other administrators (with the exception of PhilKnight) willing to even respond to this issue, let alone issue blocks over it, so I suggest you settle it yourselves unless something particularly obvious and egregious comes up.--Tznkai (talk) 03:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone is suggesting blocks. Jossi made personal remarks and so did Francis. I'm not sure that it's appropriate to only focus on those of Francis. This topic clearly brings out emotions, and editors who can't leave their biases aside should find other topics. I think we can all agree on that. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:58, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Violation of TTN's restriction?

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

No blocks or bans issued. PhilKnight (talk) 17:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm relatively inexperienced in matters of Arbcom, but this [27] appears that it might be in violation of TTN's restrictions. I originally posted this at the incident board and was told that it belonged here instead. One of the members there suggested it might be frivilous, however the situation seems very similar to these [28] [29] which resulted in a one week ban. I realize his restriction expires soon, but if its a violation its a violation, so I thought I should still bring it up. 75.93.9.235 (talk) 23:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This marks the third board that this editor has placed this request in. He has been told by multiple editors that removing approximately 20% of an article doesn't even approach a violation of TTN's restrictions.Kww (talk) 02:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Only two editors have voiced their opinion on the matter (although yes, that technically is multiple editors). The only reason I've moved them is because I kept getting told that I was posting them in the wrong spot. I even offered to delete the corresping sections on the other pages. I'm not trying to be a troll, I just wanted to take the matter to the appropriate page.75.93.9.235 (talk) 05:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It approaches a violation. Let's wait and see what happens after the injunction ends, though. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 15:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't rush. Wait a little. Let's see what happens first.--Nice book I read (talk) 20:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Martinphi at WP:NPOV

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

No blocks or bans issued. PhilKnight (talk) 17:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Relevant arbcom case: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist
Relevant remedy: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#Martinphi restricted (among others)
Disputed edit by Martinphi: removing someone else's comment from WT:NPOV
Further context WT:NPOV#Removal of comments by Martinphi
Martinphi warned: [30]

--Francis Schonken (talk) 05:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of personal attacks is common practice, and allows the attacker to leave it be and no harm done. Since the editor insisted, I reported him to AN/I, so it is also being discussed there. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That would be WP:ANI#User:Shoemaker's Holiday --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested action: Martinphi banned from WP:NPOV, maybe also from WT:NPOV (see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#Martinphi restricted for how to apply such sanction). --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm missing how Shoemaker's post was a personal attack. Unnecessary, sure, but it's not a personal attack to note the fact that a user is under arbcom sanction.

In any case, the more important issue is Martinphi's recent edits to WP:NPOV, which changed the meaning of the policy, and the failure to seek a broad consensus before putting those changes into effect. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPA Is not just about personal insult, its about any attack against the editor, over the edit. A brief survey of Shoemaker Holiday's comments suggests some untoward hostility. This looks like its more proper to send them to dispute resolution.--Tznkai (talk) 05:38, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DR? All I want is that he stop attacking me in the future. I gave him plenty of opportunity tonight. See the AN/I thread. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Quoting from WP:NPA: There is no official policy regarding when or whether most personal attacks should be removed, although it has been a topic of substantial debate. Removing unquestionable personal attacks from your own user talk page is rarely a matter of concern. On other talk pages, especially where such text is directed against you, removal should typically be limited. (emphasis mine)

I am aware of the AN/I topic, and I am unimpressed with you both.--Tznkai (talk) 05:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly. I didn't read policy, I followed common practice. I guess common practice is in accord with policy, though, because I did a limited (one time) removal. At any rate, I can see people would have a problem if I'd taken it out more than once. I didn't, but followed the usual rout in reporting. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is not common practice to remove another's comments, unless something egregious occurs, such as threats of personal harm, revealing of personal real world information, and so forth. Furthermore, WP:NPA is an important piece of policy. Familiarize yourself with it.--Tznkai (talk) 06:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The underlying problem is indeed Martinphi's messing with WP:NPOV as mentioned by Akhilleus, notably Martinphi's efforts towards expanding possibilities for the weight minority POVs may assume accross Wikipedia, thus shifting the balance of the NPOV policy. Martinphi uses disruption as a means to acquire that, which calls for a straight application of the remedies of the ArbCom case Martinphi was involved in. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Under absolutely and no circumstances are we having this conversation. 1. This is a wiki, and changes to policy are under the eyes of I dunno, a billion editors or so, so no big deal. 2. Martinphi is on a short leash for disruptive behavior, not content editing, to wikipolicy or anything else. The straight application of remedies is under the judgment of an administrator. At this exact junction of time, that's me.--Tznkai (talk) 05:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This edit by Martinphi was disruptive: removing someone else's comment from WT:NPOV --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was improper, and I am reviewing it, and the ArbCom case now.--Tznkai (talk) 05:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I won't go further than this here, but edits undertaken very slowly in conjunction with several other editors over a matter of days with lots of discussion on the talk page cannot be called pushing or non-consensus of any kind. More abuse of AE for trying to get Martinphi. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's currently multilateral edit-warring at WP:NPOV, which indicates a lack of consensus. This is a core policy, and it needs to be relatively stable, or at least not the subject of active edit-warring. I sentence you all to one week's hard labor cleaning up Sarah Palin-related articles. MastCell ^Talk 05:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Funny, but ambiguous: are all admins currently so taken in by the wheelwarring on a vice-presidential candidate's page, that giving some attention to one of Wikipedia's core content policy pages is asked too much of them? --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good thing we don't have a WP:No Cruel and Unusual Punishment--Tznkai (talk) 06:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heh. Like which ones? I read a bit of the main one, and it didn't look like some POV piece. How about helping make NPOV better? Gradually of course. You're a cool hand. I think you'd be of enormous help over there. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I apologise if my comment chiding Martinphi was slightly rude. The backhhground is that a while ago Martinphi was editing WP:CIVIL in ways that let him better attack Scienceapologist. He was cited for it here: [[31]] Here's the diff where he specifically stated that was his purpose in editing that policy. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 06:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apology accepted. I recommend you take a break from interacting with Martinphi for a day, and he with you. In addition Martin, I'd suggest using the talk page and extra civil language when editing policy pages. I'd really like it if this is resolved this without having to resort to any actual sanctions.--Tznkai (talk) 06:31, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, if I hadn't been pulled in by the comment deletion and Martin's ANI thread, I'd have probably moved on already. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 06:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec, @Shoemaker:) Well, if you want ArbCom remedies applied WP:AE (this page) is probably the more suited page. I don't want to re-emulate the prior incident (which was extensively discussed in other places at the time), but I do think that the current actions of Martinphi at WP/WT:NPOV warrant a straight application of the cited ArbCom case's remedies, especially as from the above discussion it is more than apparent that Martinphi has no intention to feel sorry about his disruption, nor to improve his behaviour at WP/WT:NPOV. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I was hoping it wouldn't be necessary to have any sanctions applied, that I could post that and it'd be the end of it. As it is, I probably think he should be banned from all policy and guideline pages, if he's going to create this much drama every time. Anyway, I have other things to do today than have an internet argument. See you all later! Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 06:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Asking an admin to ban Martinphi from WP/WT:NPOV for the time being (according to the spirit & letter of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#Martinphi restricted), and to take it from there as far as other guidance pages are concerned. Note that Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#Log of blocks and bans already has some entries regarding Martinphi, so I see no reason to be too lenient for the current incident (nor for any possible future ones but I go from the assumption it would stop here and now after the proposed WP/WT:NPOV ban is instated). --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:03, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Declined: Martinphi hasn't edited anything for a while, so the issue is moot. If he starts making disruptive edits starting now, note it here and on my talk page please, with diffs. Or you could always try another administrator I suppose.--Tznkai (talk) 07:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

07:30, 7 September 2008, an edit by Martinphi containing "...I do not know of any [recent change] which actually changed the policy...", which is a clear case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT (a specific form of disruption), especially in view of the detailed explanations and comparisons provided by Shoemaker at WP:ANI#User:Shoemaker's Holiday. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That diff says "I'm happy to go with the general consensus on the examples, whatever that consensus eventually turns out to be. Premature bold edits should be avoided. If I remember, the examples were in for quite a while (consensus), then one or two eidtors started to try and edit war them out."

Golly gee, awful. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I endorse a topic ban of Martinphi from this and other related policy pages. Since these are the principal policies which Martinphi violates in promoting his pro-fringe agenda, to have him editing the policies in order to weaken their effect in preventing that problem, identified by ArbCom and numerous others, represents a serious problem. It is Martinphi who is wrong here, not the long-standing policy. Guy (Help!) 10:38, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I endorse that topic ban as well; when one feels a policy is wrong, raising discussion on the policy page about reexamining it is the correct thing to do; simply going ahead and changing the policy to a favored bent without consensus is emphatically not and MartinPhi was well aware of that. — Coren ^(talk) 14:49, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(I do not, however, endorse a band on WT:NPOV— Martin should be free to attempt to change consensus by discussion — just not impose his view against consensus). — Coren ^(talk) 14:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Right now Martinphi is under strict scrutiny and has not done anything egregiously damaging, or irreversible we do nothing for the time being. Blocks are not meant to be punitive. Should something occur again within the next 72 hours and change, 4 month topic block.--Tznkai (talk) 15:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Within limits. If he presses the point beyond what is reasonable, then he should be banned fomr there as well. In my experience Martinphi never gives up and I am strongly opposed to giving him a license to carry on asking until everybody else has got bored and walked off, giving him the day be default. It should not be necessary to devote massive amounts of time to resisting changes of policy designed primarily to allow violation of the policy as it has existed for a long time. Guy (Help!) 15:37, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A message on his talk page has suggested to me he is not getting it, and I have left [32] message on his talk page.--Tznkai (talk) 16:03, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let me make clear that there was no POV pushing on NPOV, as the edits, done gradually over days, make clear. Accusations to the contrary not only have no basis in the actual edits, they do not take account of the process of the edits, which as suggested by an admin were very slow: when people started editing faster and on other than the main WEIGHT section we were working on, by consensus we stopped that editing (except a few copy edits by another editor), for the reason that we did not want anyone to be confused- we wanted to maintain consensus.

As for the accusations of POV pushing here, no one has stated what POV was pushed, nor how the edits promoted any POV. Nor do I believe they promoted any POV. Thus, the accusations are merely that. Any ban or sanction ought to be based on what we actually did (and I was not the only one editing the WEIGHT section, I did it along with other editors), not on mere numbers of accusers. So, they accuse me of POV pushing. They accuse me of editing against consensus, or without it. Is that so? No, it is not. Anyone who, like Tznakai, looks at my actual edits, will see this.

I will do as Tznkai says, and not directly make changes to policy for the next week. I will not refer to or communicate with Shoemaker for 24 hrs, unless he continues to refer to or attack me, in which case I will bring it to the attention of the Arbitrators, or whatever administrators I am advised are appropriate- but I will not confront him directly.

I would like to register my dismay that no one had more to say to Shoemaker for his poisoning of the well, and his incorrect accusation of sanction for POV pushing- a sanction which is most conspicuous by its absence, as that was the main charge brought in two ArbComs.

I recognize that Tznkai has had to walk a very fine line here, to be as fair as he felt possible in the face of so many attacks. I have seen quite a few admins react this way: confusion concerning the disconnect between the actual edits of mine and the vehemence of the attacks, resulting in an attempt to find a ground which is viable yet not unfair. Indeed, the ArbCom itself reacted this way. Tznakai obviously looked at my actual edits, which is all I ask of any neutral admin. So I thank Tznkai for doing the best he could under very difficult circumstances, when he found himself in the middle of a game of "get Martinphi" which has been going on for years now, and which only the steadfastness of the ArbCom has prevented from prevailing.

Thank you, Tznakai, I recognize how difficult this kind of thing is. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 19:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I consider this matter resolved. thoughts?--Tznkai (talk) 20:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, wait a couple of weeks and revisit. If martin continues to press for NPOV to be rewritten in a way that supports his serial violations of that policy, then a long-term topic ban should be enacted speedily. Guy (Help!) 23:10, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]