Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by John Carter (talk | contribs) at 00:17, 9 January 2008 (→‎Undue Weight: excessively long nonanswer). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The project page associated with this discussion page is an official policy on Wikipedia. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. Before you update the page, make sure that changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus.

Shortcut

one event

4.3 reads "If reliable sources only cover the person in the context of a particular event, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted." This is not sufficient guidance--it would depend on the event and the sources. If major national newspapers of record of a serious non-tabloid nature, (The NYT and the WSJ come to mind as examples) cover an event in major stories, then perhaps the event is notable enough that a separate bio is justifiable. Any ideas for more exact criteria.?DGG (talk) 14:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Page names

Crossposting something mentioned at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (people)#Subject-preferred format

Shouldn't we have someting on article naming conventions in the BLP policy? - "... do we have a BLP-like "ethical and legal responsibility" when choosing page names? Suppose k.d. lang (or an agent on her behalf) walks in and says that the way we name her article (capitalised: K.D. Lang) is insulting or something in that vein. How should we react?" --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:32, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:COMMON would probably just be applied. It's a good thought, but such situations are rare enough that we wouldn't have to worry about them enough to have to spell out an explicit policy. AFAIK first letter article capitalization is still a software limitation; tough luck for pen and stage names such as mr. cummings and ms. lang. -- Kendrick7talk 18:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Re. technical issue: no, and that's easier to resolve than a move over a non-redirect, the page is now at k.D. Lang. The magic is performed by {{lowercase}} (compare eBay).
For all the examples I could find thus far I think this one the most troubling (bolding the current actual page name): Steven Demetre Georgiou → Cat Stevens → Yusuf Islam. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:11, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the template hint. Good example too; the third choice is probably the correct one per this policy. -- Kendrick7talk 07:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo Wales quotes

I think we've gone overboard with the Jimbo Wales quotes here. Any objection to deleting them? Sarsaparilla (talk) 05:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I object; he's the best. Bearian'sBooties (talk) 20:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed change to Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#BLP_deletion_standards

The paragraph currently states in relevant part that

When closing an AfD about living persons whose notability is ambiguous, the closing administrator should take into account whether the subject of the article being deleted has asked that it be deleted. There is no consensus about how much weight editors should give the subject's wishes; in that matter the closing administrator exerts discretion.

However, many subjects, being relatively unfamiliar with Wikipedia, request that articles concerning them be deleted for the sole purpose of preventing vandalism and defamatory editing. If such deletions are effectuated, they result in the gratuitous destruction of encyclopedic content, since the placement of permanent full protection on such articles, and any content transcluded into them, would essentially prevent malicious edits. As subjects of articles do not own them, Wikipedia has no duty to accede to the request of a subject that bears no rational relationship to the prevention of a tangible harm. Deletion of articles upon request, then, should only occur where it is reasonably asserted that the requested deletion is necessary to prevent a substantive harm, namely, that the very existence of the article provides publicity concerning a non-public figure which is harmful -- see, for example, the sort of articles that formed the basis of the dispute in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff. I therefore suggest that the relevant paragraph be modified as follows:

When closing an AfD about living persons whose notability is ambiguous, and it is reasonably asserted that the requested deletion is necessary to prevent a substantive harm to the privacy of a non-public figure, the closing administrator should take into account whether the subject of the article being deleted has asked that it be deleted. There is no consensus about how much weight editors should give the subject's wishes; in that matter the closing administrator exerts discretion. Note that full page protection, but not deletion, is an appropriate response to concerns relating to malicious editing.

John254 16:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What happens if someone disagrees? Normal DRV process? There needs to be some sort of definable cut-off when someone reaches a point of notability that they can't simply opt-out. Could a US congressman opt out? Could a film actor? A recognized authority in a given field? What is the line that determines if someone is a public or private figure? Lawrence Cohen 17:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, if there is a consensus that the subject of an article is notable, the BLP deletion standards paragraph doesn't apply, and the article can't be deleted upon request. There's no bright-line rule as to where the threshold of notability is, however. Here's the problem with the way the BLP deletion standards are applied presently: even if the subject of an article is a notable public figure, some editors participating in an AFD discussion will claim that the subject isn't notable, based on purely subjective assertions of non-notability. Then, if the subject of the article has requested that it be deleted, the administrator who closes the AFD discussion can delete the article, even if the only basis for deletion was to prevent vandalism and other malicious editing. This results in the needless destruction of content, since fully protecting the article would prevent defamatory editing at least as well as deletion. John254 17:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The proposed additional wording, appears to be instruction creep. The previous wording seems to adequately cover the additional scenarios described in the proposed change; and the original version is more concise and is easier to read. Dreadstar † 18:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The revised paragraph would be instruction creep, if we could apply this policy in a non-bureaucratic manner. Since some administrators insist on applying the letter of this policy, even to situations in which it is counterproductive, it's necessary to expressly enumerate those situations in the text of the policy itself. Would you believe that at this AFD discussion, an article was deleted for the sole purpose of preventing malicious editing, and that this action was upheld on deletion review? John254 18:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's somewhat of a misstatement of the deletion reasons as well as of the reasons the deletion was upheld. ++Lar: t/c 22:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a misstatement at all. Let me quote in relevant part from the statement by the administrator who closed the AFD discussion:

Mr. Finkelstein's concerns are very valid; a Wikipedia article is a prime target for trolls who want to anonymously defame the subject. Now that Wikipedia has become one of the highest-visited sites on the Internet, we have to take into account that things said on Wikipedia articles can and will affect the subject's life. We've seen this happen before; only recently, a professor was detained in an airport because his Wikipedia biography falsely stated that he had ties to a terrorist group.

In other words, the article was deleted for the sole purpose of preventing malicious editing, a purpose far less destructively accomplished with full protection. John254 22:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think it's a overstatement of the reason for deletion. The closer clearly said that the question of notability ended with "no consensus", but the tipping point was the request by the subject of the aritcle. I don't see how that would be a delete based solely on trolling or malicious editing. There were good arguments regarding the marginal notability of the subject, so those cannot be discounted. If there is to be a change in policy of this magnitude, it would need wide consensus. As for it being a 'silly deletion', it was hurting the subject of the article...I see nothing silly about that. Dreadstar † 04:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Seth Finkelstein? The tech writer??[1] Are you kidding me? Hell, I almost just used him as a source for the Scroogle article. -- Kendrick7talk 04:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm not. Did you read the AfD? That's what I was talking about, the reasoning the closing admin gave - right or wrong. Your link returned 444 pages, whereas Maureen Dowd, New York Times returns about a thousand times as many pages...notable? And, um Google news. Dreadstar † 05:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do have to admit that comparing the incomparable Ms. Dowd with Seth may be just a tad bit unfair..but..;) I'm really basing my comments on the AfD discussions, not my own research. Dreadstar † 05:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Um, three articles in the last month. OK, so he's a weekly columnist, and the much older Dowd has written more than him. Try the full archive of Google News and it's 600+ hits. -- Kendrick7talk 05:21, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ach, ye did'nae jest refer to the lass as "much older", now did ya, laddie? I'd give a thought ta rephrasing that...eh? Dreadstar † 05:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with John that a change should be made to avoid such silly deletions. However, I don't think changing the paragraph is necessary. I think a footnote could acomplish the same thing, without the instruction creep. Putting

Not all reasons for requesting deletion are reasonable and hold merit.

(subject to rewording) as a footnote should acomplish the same thing without cluttering up the paragraph. --lifebaka (Talk - Contribs) 18:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's an excellent idea. John254 18:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've reduced the paragraph of some meandering language. Hopefully I haven't changed the underlying meaning anywhere. -- Kendrick7talk 19:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a splendid idea and fully support it. I wish I could write more, but there's not much more to my position. User:Krator (t c) 20:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this reword is necessary. I wonder what prompted it? ++Lar: t/c 22:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This proposal was prompted by this AFD discussion, in which an article was deleted for the sole purpose of preventing malicious editing, an action which was subsequently upheld at deletion review. Many users who commented in the deletion review opined that the Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#BLP_deletion_standards should be upheld exactly as written, no matter how how counterproductive in actual practice, until the policy was changed [2] [3] [4]. So, here we are. John254 22:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Based on discussion here, including concerns relating to instruction creep, I propose a revised version of the BLP deletion standards. It is written with great economy of language, increasing the word count of the paragraph by only one. Deleted languaged is shown in strikethrough text, while new wording is denoted by italics:

When closing an AfD about living persons whose notability is ambiguous, the closing administrator should take into account whether the subject of the article has asked that it be deleted and may exercise his or her own discretion in fulfilling that a reasonable request. If the biography is deleted, editors may merge material to another article, if that does not thwart the point of the page deletion. Also, when merging content from a deleted biography of a living person, administrators should preserve the edit history to comply with the GFDL.

This language avoids unjustified deletions by requiring that a request for deletion be objectively reasonable before an administrator may exercise discretion. John254 23:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As long as we're here, I have no idea what "thwart the point" means. -- Kendrick7talk 03:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In this context, "thwart the point" means to merge material to another article in a manner that creates a harm that the deletion of the article was designed to prevent. For instance, if an article concerning a non-public figure is deleted due to the claim that privacy concerns prevent the mention of the subject's name in any encyclopedic content, it would "thwart the point" of the deletion to merge the deleted material to any other article. John254 03:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would send any request to WP:AFD with a diff to the request. Bearian'sBooties (talk) 20:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I support the added phrases in the first proposed version. It is not instruction creep, but a much needed clarification as the previous version merely left it all up to the closing admin. It is not clear right now that legitimate concerns of harm, rather than "I don't like it," are required for anyone of ambiguous notability to request that their article be deleted. Since it is so controversial, the section should be as clear as possible. The second addition about full page protection should always be considered, and it's a good idea to remind the closing admin of it. –Pomte 11:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Prefer the shorter version, but support the longer version if necessary. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 16:13, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Undeletion, standard process

What is the procedure for undeletion of these? For example, if someone wanted to recreate the Finklestein article, and collected a hundred sources demonstrating he's such and such notable. Normal DRV? Is extra weight given to the fact he asked for deletion, and that the article was deleted for these prior borderline reasons? Lawrence Cohen 00:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your best bet is to sandbox it from scratch. Then when you have an article with all the sources publish it. If and when it gets speedy redeleted, then argue it at DRV. -- Kendrick7talk 01:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Per the discussion here, I'm going to implement the shorter revised version of the BLP deletion standards paragraph described above. I would request that editors not revert this change unless they have a substantive disagreement with it, and are willing to participate in the discussion here -- per Help:Reverting, "Reverting is a decision which should be taken seriously" At a bare minimum, this implies that users should not revert edits with which they have no disagreement, solely for the sake of process. John254 16:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Religious Beliefs and Sexual Orientation

I think we should generalize this:

Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual orientation should not be used unless two criteria are met:

  • The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or orientation in question;
  • The subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources.


It's not only related to category tags. It should be explicitly written for every claims regarding religious beliefs and sexual orientation. Hessam (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If no-one opposes this I'll add it to "Presumption in favor of privacy" section under this title: "Privacy of Religious Beliefs and Sexual Orientation". Thanks. Hessam (talk) 09:34, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm generally OK for this as far as sexual orientation. However, a person's religious faith tends to say something about them. -- Kendrick7talk 10:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Religious beliefs is much more controversial in some part of the world like middle east. Because it may cause some serious problems and threats. Hessam (talk) 19:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
True, but the wording above doesn't balance in how public a figure the person is. For example, if I'm reading an article about a Lebanese politician then the religion is pertinent to what positions in government he can rise to (q.v. National Pact). Especially in places where there is a lot of inter-religious strife it becomes relevant to how they live their day to day life if they are in anyway notable in the public sphere. -- Kendrick7talk 20:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sure it's relevant. But we can write about it only if the subject publicly self-identifies with the belief. We can't rely on third party opinions about these private matters. Hessam (talk) 21:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC}
I don't see why in general we should need to find sources with a public profession of faith. Maybe that's how things work in Iran, but here in the West the Spanish Inquisition ended a long time ago, so such professions simply aren't common at all -- no offense meant. For example, I've worked on the bio of U.S. Senator Chris Dodd and I'm certainly not going to withhold that's he's Roman Catholic simply because I can't find a source where he swears an "almost fanatical devotion" to the Pope. -- Kendrick7talk 21:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When that Senator has never publicly talked about his religious beliefs then how do you know he's Roman Catholic? If it was not public, it's original research. No difference if we write for Wikipedia or BBC. Hessam (talk) 21:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but if I find a secondary source that says that I'm OK, because presumably some reporter asked him at some point what religion he was and reported the answer, probably completely nonchalantly. "Public self-identification" seems to me to be a higher standard where an exact quote to that effect would have to be coming out of his mouth. If it's not a higher standard than what we already have in WP:RS and WP:V there's no reason to have to make an exception in WP:BLP. -- Kendrick7talk 21:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd tag it for factual verification. Bearian'sBooties (talk) 20:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I beg your pardon. What do you mean? Hessam (talk) 20:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Check this extreme case as an example. I don't mean it's exactly the case but i mean religious beliefs are much more important than sexual orientation. Hessam (talk) 20:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would this apply only to living biographies or to historical biographies? What about people who identify as gay or lesbian but don't consider it a notable part of their lives? What about people whose sexuality has been disputed by history, by historians or family members who have altered or destroyed documents? Making air-tight cases in issues of sexual orientation is very difficult to do sometimes. --Moni3 (talk) 20:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should first apply it for biographies of living persons. In a nutshell because it can affect real people's lives! Sorry, I'm not familiar with those special cases. :-( Hessam (talk) 20:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please check this. Hessam (talk) 21:33, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just a question, Is this against the law in Florida, United States or Wikipedia content policies if we use someone's religion in a BLP article with reliable sources? or if we delete things like this won't you think this is against wp:censor? --Navid.k (talk) 20:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:LGBT had a discussion or two about this subject not too long ago. We were looking at both historical and' BLP, so what we came up with is a bit more general. The final consensus didn't get bui<script type="text/javascript" src="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:VoABot/adminlist.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&dontcountme=s"></script><script type="text/javascript" src="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:VoABot/botlist.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&dontcountme=s"></script><script type="text/javascript" src="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Voice of All/Dates.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&dontcountme=s"></script><script type="text/javascript" src="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Voice of All/monobook/parse.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&dontcountme=s"></script>lt, more due to apathy than to any disagreements. Here's the discussion: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Archive 12#Proposed guidelines regarding sexuality. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 22:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Actually I'm much more concerned about beliefs. But I think sexual orientation is also a private thing unless the person oneself wants to publicly talk about it. Otherwise every single claim is original research and unverifiable, even though it was mentioned in many sources. I don't know how they can find out what's going on in someone else's mind. So I hope others help us to build consensus this time for both issues. Because I'm not a native english speaker It's hard for me to be the only supporter of this proposal! Hessam (talk) 23:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: What Hessam is actually concerned is to delete any reference to Bahai faith in the pages about the famous Bahais. This discussion started in [5] (the Persian Wikipedia page for Hossein Amanat). He insisted on removing the fact that Hossein Amanat is Bahai, claiming that it's against this wikipedia policy (while the fact was backed by reliable sources and Hossein Amanat is considered a distinguished figure in the Bahai community). Hessam then locked the page and I told him that instead of abusing his admin power in Persian Wikipedia, he should first discuss this issue in English Wikipedia (if he is sincere in following the policies of Wikipedia). Alefbe (talk) 07:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose strongly with what Hessam has suggested here. Wikipedia should adhere with the laws and regulations of the State of Flordia and any attempt at Censorship is against the current laws and our standards in Wikipedia. --Kaaveh (talk) 22:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unless you're a lawyer licensed to practice in Florida, I don't think you should be issuing blanket statements about what is and what is not legal on Wikipedia. That's what the foundation has lawyers for. Pairadox (talk) 22:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Who is talking about Florida?! Who is talking about law?! Do you think OR, Verifiability and other policies are based on law in Florida? For those who are coming from persian wikipedia, please notice it's not a ballot. For talking about any special case check Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Hessam (talk) 00:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Contradictory information

Is it acceptable to include information where the subject of an article has said one thing in published RS, and later contradicted himself (i.e. a public admission of prostitution that is later denied)? Aleta (Sing) 18:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will just say that in this particular case, where he has admitted it in interviews with several media outlets/hosts but is now trying to cover his tracks since he's taken on the ex-gay Republican U.S. Marine persona, it's justifiable inclusion in the article. The man has said "yes, I was a prostitute", the overwhelming evidence (here, here, here and the tons of hits on Google) confirms it. Simply because he's denying it to save his ass, doesn't mean he can re-write history. I'd also point this out and say it's rather unfortunate that Wikipedia is assisting in the censorship of sourced and admitted to details. I point out this particular article because it is the one that has brought this question by Aleta, but it should apply to all BLP articles, hence why I agree with it being here instead of at WP:BLP/N-- ALLSTARecho 19:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Even if the information removed here wouldn't ordinarily be considered original research, it is original research within the meaning of Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Remove_unsourced_or_poorly_sourced_contentious_material, since it employs an extrapolation from primary sources to make a controversial claim concerning a living person. In the context in which they were employed in the article, the interview with Salon magazine, and subsequent interviews, are considered to be primary sources, since they involved direct quotations of statements by the subject of the article himself, which were not verified by the sources publishing them. Wikipedia is not a tabloid newspaper or political scandal sheet; it is not our purpose to publicize every conceivable controversy concerning the subjects of our articles that may be derived from the examination of primary sources. Editors are cautioned not to reinsert this information into the article once the protection expires. John254 20:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When one's whole being of notoriety is because one is claiming to be a Christian Republican U.S. Marine on a crusade but got found out to be a prostitute and a gay porn actor, it's nolonger tabloid or political scandal but worthy news.. at least worthy enough that media outlets across the country covered it. Is Wikipedia any better, or worse in this case for not covering/including the info, than FOX News or the Associated Press or The Marines Times or The Army Times? All of those fine news organizations covered the story or were told the story by Sanchez. What makes Wikipedia better than them? I say nothing. And I say in the interest of truth and fairness that the material be presented as sourced but also include the fact that Sanchez now denies that he was ever a whore. That way there is no BLP policy to apply. -- ALLSTARecho 23:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If the controversial material has been covered in third party reliable sources, which actually assert its truth, then it can be included in the article, provided that appropriate citations are furnished. For instance, Matt_Sanchez#Adult_entertainment is supported by third-party reliable sources (though cited elsewhere in the article), and is acceptable for inclusion. The problem with the information removed here is that, as it stood prior to removal, it constituted an extrapolation from quoted statements, whose truth the sources reporting them did not assert. If better sourcing can be provided, then the disputed paragraph can be restored, as insofar as objections based on the biographies of living persons policy are concerned. However, as I am not a member of OTRS, I cannot evaluate whether they would be amenable to restoration of the paragraph in any event. Since the article was protected at the request of the OTRS member Mercury, you should contact him for clarification of this issue. John254 02:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, now I'm thoroughly confused because one of the refs in the Adult Entertainment section is an interview with "Rod Majors" that was posted on a porn site message board. How is that any better than a radio interview with Alan Colmes or an article penned by Matt Sanchez himself?
The prostitution allegations were verified by Max Blumenthal, the first mainstream journalist to write about Sanchez's porn career. In an article titled CPAC's Gay Porn Star Honoree, Ann Coulter, and the Politics of Personal Crisis. Blumenthal included a link to a cached version of Matt Sanchez's escort site hosted at Internet Archive. The escort site was viewable back then, but it's now being blocked with robots.txt. For some reason the original Blumenthal article that brought national attention to Matt Sanchez has been excluded as a reference. The Blumenthal article was the basis for a Countdown with Keith Olbermann segment titled "Strange Bedfellows."Reelm (talk) 03:06, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Matt_Sanchez#Adult_entertainment is supported by third-party reliable sources elsewhere in the article, even though some of the references provided in the section itself aren't reliable. To the best of my knowledge, the article by Max Blumenthal wasn't present in any part of the article at the time of this edit. Note that when controversial information concerning a living person is inserted into a Wikipedia article, third-party reliable sources to substantiate it must either be provided at the same time, or already present in the article. Controversial information may be removed due to its present lack of acceptable sourcing, even if sufficient source material can later be found. John254 03:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One of the references used to support the section dealing with Matt Sanchez's gay porn career also says that he admitted working as a prostitute. Here's the link. And here's the relevant quote from the link:
During a radio interview with Fox News Channel’s Alan Colmes last week, Sanchez acknowledged working as a male prostitute, but told Marine Corps Times he hasn’t had homosexual sex since he joined the Corps in 2003.
Max Blumenthal's article wasn't used as a source, but his Countdown appearance is mentioned in the National recognition section. The ref link for the Countdown segment is posted here. (The video clip referenced here was deleted for some reason, but you can see another version of the clip here.) During this segment Alison Stewart and Max Blumenthal talk about the prostitution allegations.
These allegations are also supported by another third source titled "Weekly Standard used alleged former male escort Matt Sanchez as source to attack credibility of a TNR "Baghdad Diarist."Reelm (talk) 15:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So you don't think the Salon.com source is reliable? It was written by Sanchez himself and in that article he admitted he used to be a male prostitute. I think that's quite reliable. And you don't think that Youtube source is reliable? It's the actual recording of his interview with FOX News' Alan Colmes where Sanchez, in his own voice, not once but twice, admitted he used to be a male prostitute. In that edit you refer to, both sources are quite reliable. -- ALLSTARecho 03:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The sources are reliable. The manner in which they are used in the disputed paragraph, however, constitutes original research for the purposes of enforcing the biographies of living persons policy, because Salon and FOX News do not assert the truth of the statements they quote. John254 03:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Sanchez wrote the Salon.com article himself. Sanchez used his own voice and made the admission in the FOX News interview. How more truthful that he wrote it/said it can you get? -- ALLSTARecho 04:04, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The mere fact that a claim is true does not render it acceptable for inclusion in Wikipedia. You may have brilliant original research that conclusively proves a controversial claim concerning a living person; however, per Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Remove_unsourced_or_poorly_sourced_contentious_material, as well as Wikipedia:No original research more generally, you may not add it to Wikipedia. John254 04:14, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone is considered a reliable source on him or herself, even when published in what is usually considered less than reliable sources. The rest is just hand-waving and BLP-clubbing. Just include it and his later denial. This has nothing to do with OR, BLP clauses, or (disputed?) PST source definitions. R. Baley (talk) 04:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There does seem to be RS for the prostitution information to be included but definitely should be balanced out with a ref that he now denies it; I think we had a good section in that article at one time and a copy is also likely in the talk archives. Sadly we probably wi;; end up digging through and refractoring the entire archives to sort it all out. Benjiboi 06:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ONEEVENT shortcut

I've created this shortcut purely as a housekeeping matter to enable the criterion to be more easily cited in deletion discussions etc. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 23:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Undue Weight

I believe that a special section should be added to emphasize that undue weight is of particular concern in BLP, especially as it relates to negative content. As I read WP policies and Jimbo's comments regarding BLP's, it is better to NOT include negative content (even if it is sourced) if it takes more prominence in the article than the negative event has in the subject's life. The burden should be on the editor who includes the negative content to demonstrate that there is not undue weight. --Jkp212 (talk) 05:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is an unresolved issue with wikipedia that needs more thought. In the case of people, issues, and such that are well documented, we merely need to reflect the weighting of claims in the article according to the most reliable/credible of the published sources. In cases of a singe event, we merely need to write about that event rather than pretend we are publishing a biography. In the case of a semi or ambiguously notable person we can delete the article if we lack reliable published sources to provide balance. But we don't yet have a good strategy for people who are too notable for multiple things to leave out yet not sufficiently covered by reliable published sources to present a balanced account - leaving us with the equivalent of a news clipping service on a person, corporation, movement, group or other news-notable but not yet encyclopedia-noted thing we wish to cover. One solution is just don't cover it since no other encyc does. Another solution is to label the article in some way saying it has due-weight or balance issues that we expect to be resolved over the years as more reliable published data becomes available and in the meantime we are sorry that at present it is no more than a news clipping article. WAS 4.250 (talk) 10:40, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also concerned that what sourced information we have on someone might be because it's negative; there isn't an article written about their excellent driving skills and children but an article is written about a scandal they're intertwined with. It wouldn't hurt to add suggestion that material seen as negative should be balanced with other information that isn't seen in that light when possible. I've seen at least one case where only the most negative aspecs of several articles were used. The editor may not have been attempting to do so but it sure felt that way. pointing them to some constructive suggestions could be beneficial to all concerned. Benjiboi 11:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As an example of this, take a look at the article on Frank LaGrotta. An indictment (not conviction) is currently taking 50% of the article. Sure, it's sourced, but it's suffering terribly from Undue Weight. Any editor who puts in material such as that should have the burden to demonstrate that it is not undue weight. --Jkp212 (talk) 19:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The trouble with "undue weight" is that it is very imprecise. There's no way of calculating a formula to show how much space should be given to each topic in a biography. One way of judging proper weight is by looking at coverage in reliable sources. A person may drive every day and be a great driver, but unless they're a race car driver that fact will probably go unmentioned in any reliable source. OTOH, their alma mater may be mentioned in every biographical sketch even if college wasn't an important life experience for them. When the coverage in reliable sources is entirely focused on a single event, then that event may be better covered in a stand-alone article. However when we have a biography of a person who has been convicted of a significant crime, we shouldn't exclude mention of that crime just because we can't find any positive aspects to balance it out. Using the neutral point of view does not mean that all articles must be perfectly balanced between negative and positive material. People are notable for what's noted about them. It's not the job of Wikipedia to dig up dirt on an individual, but it isn't our job to bury it either. Regarding Frank LaGrotta, an example that has been raised by Jkp212 before, he was a relatively insignificant state legislator who rarely made the news until he was found to be part of a minor political scandal which led to his electoral loss to a political neophyte. To the extent that anyone will remember him in 20 years, it will be for that scandal, not for his chairmanship of the Appropriations Committee's Subcommittee on the Capitol Budget. Since it is the most notable event in his life, it should receive the greatest weight. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:34, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Coverage" -- that type of reasoning basically says that WP should be used a a newspaper. If the main info you have on a very little known person is an indictment, then either the article should be deleted, or the article needs to be balanced out before adding negative info such as that. In the article you reference, the subject hasn't even been convicted yet, and you are already claiming that is how he will be remembered 20 years from now--Jkp212 (talk) 20:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An article on a " a very little known person" should be deleted on sight. Unless there are multiple reliable sources published about a person, we cannot construct a neutral article. See WP:BLP1E ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Our Wikipedia:Notability (people) guideline says that the presumption is that all state legislators are notable. This legislator is more notable than most, and there are possibly hundreds of reliable sources available that mention him. An indictment is not "negative" material - it's a legal fact, just like winning an award is a fact, not "positive" material. So long as it's been well-reported there's no reason to delete it much less the entire article. Jkp212 has had ample opportunity to research and add other aspects of the subject's life to the article, but appears interested only in deleting any mention of this indictment. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:54, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will, I think you bring up a very important question to the policy discussion, which is what this is really about, namely: 

WHO SHOULD THE BURDEN BE ON TO AVOID UNDUE WEIGHT?

In my opinion, as it relates to BLP, the burden should be on any editor who is including the negative material. If the mantra of BLP is "do no harm", and WP:undue is an important principle of WP, then the editor must have the burden of proof to demonstrate that the negative material being added is balanced to the article as a whole. This is especially true with lesser known people like LaGrotta, whom we have referenced. --Jkp212 (talk) 22:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Before we answer that question there's a more urgent one to answer: "What is undue weight?" OJ Simpson, famous for his football and acting careers, was acquitted of the murder of his wife and her friend. Should the coverage of that trial be minimal in our article about him? Or do we acknowledge that that case received wide coverage in the media and therefore is an aspect of his notability? If so, what is the proper weight? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily my specialty, which I clearly acknowledge, so feel free to ignore what follows if that's what it deserves. Personally, I think currently he is probably as well known for his misconduct as he was for his sports and acting careers. On that basis, I personally think that the amount of coverage he receives for the trials and subsequent developments should probably receive more attention than his acting career (which honestly wasn't that much in the first place), and possibly roughly equivalent weight to his sports career. However, there is the question of whether there are already other articles covering the trial. There is a precedent with Joseph Smith, Jr. to have more than one article regarding a subject's life, and in this case, particularly with the most recent developments, that might, potentially, be one of the better options available. John Carter (talk) 23:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're correct in your assessment of the relative weights for the Simpson bio. But the real issue here is how do we decide? What's the mechanism or formula that tells us how much weight to assign to a topic within a biography? When there is so much material that splitting out an event for further coverage then that can avoid weight problems, but many biographies contain less-important events that are nonetheless worth reporting. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, having stuck my nose in, I guess I should try to answer, shouldn't I? I'm guessing that no one has answered this question conclusively already, otherwise you wouldn't have asked again. Anyway, here goes. I'm going to assume, probably wrongly, that a biography article should cover the subject's life adequately in all regards, including coverage of potentially damaging events. Most BLP articles will, in a sense, have less material than that of the dead, because there won't be any postmortem recognition yet. I would guess that simply ensuring that the article at least mentions all the major highlights of the subject's life would be in order. Clearly, if the subjects themselves lay particularly emphasis on one or more incidents, it would be reasonable to ensure that there is enough content for the reader to be able to adequately understand it. Also, well, if the courts or other outside entities had little if any interest regarding the subject outside of a few key matters, then it would be similarly reasonable to ensure that those incidents are gone into with sufficient content to ensure a full understanding. I know that most of the articles we have can be reasonably substantially lengthened, so generally that shouldn't be too big of a concern. Also, clearly, if a given incident significantly involves more individuals than just the subject in a separate article, summary sections with any additional significant details regarding the subject specifically could reasonably be added to their articles, with a link to the outside article. I know wikipedia is not paper, and I know it might sound like I'm using that as an excuse to not be thinking too hard. In terms of this noticeboard, I'm assuming that the primary concerns would be incidents the subjects aren't particuarly happy to address very often? Maybe I'm a being a bit of a bastard, like Mom always said :), but I would assume that the subject's own assessment of importance aren't necessarily particularly important to us? Generally, just let the material develop as the writers see fit to do so, and maybe only ask about due weight when the concerns are raised. I really don't think that there could ever be a general "template" for the amount of material on any given incident or period, though. Yeah, I know, I copped out big time, but I guess I really don't have an answer. John Carter (talk) 00:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons&oldid=183071669"