Talk:Conservapedia

Rename Conservapedia to Christianpedia

I think it is a more appropriate name. That site is no comedy and some of the strings I have read over there are downright scary. They seem to have a real out-to-get mentality and I sense a bit of paranoia as well. Especially the founder, he gives me the creeps. And yes, they project an elitist attitude far worse than anything I have seen here. That whole public school liberalism versus home schooled conservatism. I pray that they don’t really believe that. I think they give Christians and Conservatives a bad name. --Baronmarbot 00:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's not going to happen. Let's say... it's OR, sure. WLU 00:38, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I have a better idea! What about doing that for Uncyclopedia's article on Conservapedia. --w^{L<speak·check>} 21:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Conservapedia

I read on this in Taxon 56(2) and I think it is very funny. I think we should have a Leftpedia, another Liberalpedia (actually Liberapedia, etc, etc, as well. Berton 00:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Links to the edits Andrew made?

It maybe something that should be included in the article, if someone can find them.--142.68.42.145 05:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

You mean here on wikipedia? That's a bit stalker-esque, and anything we said about them beyond 'he has edited wikipedia' would be OR. WLU 06:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure it would be; in other articles about Wikipedia's history, such edits have been linked too.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 03:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

No, that would give this article even more of an anti-Conservapedia POV most likely. StaticElectric 04:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed sections

I removed the following sections - the statement about Liberalpedia seems like OR; at minimum, a reference to the website being created in response to CP should be provided. Plus, I don't see it as a particularly noteworthy inclusion as is.

The 'ideological' section seems NPOV and OR-ish as well - it's a stretch to say it's for ideological reasons and the history link that's provided as a reference is not a permanent link to those particular edits. Also, the e-mail is essentially unciteable.

A website called Liberapedia has been created in response to Conservapedia, although the objective is apparently more to supply humor than actual educational content.
Although Conservapedia claims not to block users for idealogical reasons, one user was blocked when he tried to edit the Conservapedia entry for Al Gore, merely adding four "Citation Needed" tags. The tags were deleted within 60 seconds and the user was blocked. (The tags were for statements of "fact" that seem to cast a negative light on Gore.)[[1]] Another user was blocked when he tried to edit the Conservapedia entry for "murder", by adding that soldiers in war are allowed to kill without violating the Sixth Commandment. That user received an e-mail from one of the Conservapedia sysops that said "You're not going to insult our military here!"[[2]]

WLU 13:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

This last section was I think added by a new user, possibly the banned subject in question. VanTucky ^(talk)

Can't claim to be a Wiki project anymore

Conservapedia now blocks all users who aren't "in good standing" from editing for at least 12-hours a day. That means that only sysops (about 30) and trusted non-sysop characters (less than 10) can edit 24 hours a day, and all other editors are either vandals (90%) or editors legitimately on the site who become discouraged by having their opinions squelched and reverted, and then quit (rolling 10%).

I honestly don't think that Conservapedia can claim to be a wiki anymore. If you suppress all but 30 of your membership, you're not an open project anymore. See the discussion here.

Should the article reflect this somehow?-AmesG 16:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• This is original research, and wrong to boot. Wikis routinely have very small groups allowed to edit - the first wiki I was involved in only allow ~10 editors. It depends on their purpose. Anyways, find secondary sources and we can discuss how to incorporate it. WilyD 16:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

yes - wiki just refers to the software - it really puts not specific limitations on usage (althought our article on wikis seems to suggest that...). --Fredrick day 17:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

So is it not even worth mentioning? It strikes me as anti-wiki philosophy that the only editors not blocked are conservative Christians.-AmesG 17:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey Ames, the problem is that wikipedia's core requirements include the need for secondary sources for pretty much anything. If no valid secondary source has reported on it, it can not be included. If we could find an article that covered CP and included the fact then it could be added. Tmtoulouse 17:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It really isn't. Most wikis have very restrictive editorship/readership - probably "Everybody who works for company X" and things along that line. WilyD 17:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, that's what I was afraid of. Downer. And hey Trent :-)-AmesG 17:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC) It is not big enough (yet) to find enough secondary sources on it. Doesn't that mean that you can use less accepted sources? If it calls itself "encyclopedic", does that mean that this wiki should call it an "encyclopedia", just because there is no good secondary source where they have taken the trouble to prove that it does not qualify as an encyclopedia? Corailrouge-eng —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 21:42, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

Verifiability is a core principle of wikipedia, no we can not use less accepted sources, if a source doesn't say it, then we don't say. Tmtoulouse 21:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Creationism v Creation Science

No, creation science is not a commonly accepted neologism. In fact, the only regular use of the term comes from creationists themselves. As such, it is in fact blatant POV pushing on your part to suggest that Creation Science stay. Even here on wikipedia, Creation science is defined as creationists' attempts to find scientific support for creationism, and even that definition is generous. At present, there is absolutely no research going on to prove or disprove testable hypothesis concerning any origins found in the Bible.

Finally, in searching Webster's Dictionary, I didn't find creation science, but I did find creationism. If Webster's sees fit to add words such as D'oh! to the dictionary but not creation science, your claim that creation science is a widely accepted neologism looks especially specious. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bynoceros (talk • contribs) 13:50, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

Per Wikipedia standards, the term creation science as evidenced by having an extensive article and meeting WP:NEO notability guidelines, is a commonly used and accepted neologism. Just because you don't prefer to use it does not make it trivial or untrue, and the sources support the use of that term, as that is the way Conservapedia describes itself and how others have described it. The definition, and the fraudulent intentions of those usually using the term are correct, but it is still an entrenched and notable term. The reason it is not in Websters is because it is a neologism. You might want to read the definition of that. Again, just because opponents of the culture that uses such a term do not like it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But on a different note, if you want to make a change to the article, the burden of proof rests on you to create a consensus for it. Simply making a talk comment does not give you a free reign to revert back to your preferred version. If something is controversial, you need to reach a community consensus before adding it again. VanTucky ^(talk) 15:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Um, no. A term that has been around for forty years cannot be considered a neologism. Moreover, if YOU were to actually read the wikiarticle on creation science, you would see my point: chiefly, that only creationists use the term.

Creation Science is not commonly used by ANYONE EXCEPT CREATIONISTS, and the fact that the wikientry says as much in the first sentence should be a clue.

Finally, in regards to your mind-numbing display of pedantry, I hate to break it to you, but other people in the world are just as bright as you, and dithering on about neologisms when the term in question has been around for at least forty years in the fudamentalist community is the epitome of irony. Creation Science is not a neologism; D'oh as I mentioned in my previous example is, and MW is doing a fantastic job of adding three or four year old words to the dictionary in each subsequent addition.

To summarize: 1) Creation Science, having been around for forty years plus, is not a neologism; 2) the wikiarticle on creation science explicitly states that it is a term used for and by creationists, and; 3) the term itself is an oxymoron. In the paster, there was the term of astrological science, yet today, no thinking person would make the mistake of lumping astrology in with science. Just because you are willing to allow fundamentalists leeway to term their sophistry as anything more than pseudoscience doesn't actually make it correct. I am reverting to perspective of creationism. Call things by their proper names instead of trolling around in defense of intellectual dishonesty. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.254.237.92 (talk)

You need to avoid personal attacks and assume good faith or you will not get far. The term is accepted use at wikipedia and all the sources refer to that term. The criteria for inclusion is verifiability which is here in troves. Tmtoulouse 18:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be non-creationist sources which use the term? You do not use Wiccan terminology either, for the reason it is only used by Wiccans Corailrouge-eng 20:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

No, not really. There are hundreds of religious and cultural terms that are notable, and not used customarily by anyone but members of the subculture in question. But here is a whole load of independent news sources using the term, including the National Center for Science Education. VanTucky ^(talk) 20:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

In The National Center for Science Education entry, "creation science" is quoted. I think that is the best solution then. Corailrouge-eng 20:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Even more irony. If you’ll notice, the first google link is to a book by Nick Matzke in which he destroys the concept that creation science is in fact science. Moreover, said link references creation science as defined in the 1981 Arkansas court case in which the Supreme Court ruled that creationism is not in fact science.

In fact, among the first ten links, six are from creationist/intelligent design sources (e.g. letters to the editor, Answers in Genesis). Three more are either referencing the lunacy of the term creation science or simply quoting creationists. The only instance in which the term is not used either derisively or by creationists comes from a Baptist university in North Carolina, and even then the articles speaks of a professor speaking out against the vacuity of the “DOCTRINE of creation science.”

My point all along has been and is that, by using the term creation science, one is not maintaining an NPOV. In fact, one is decidedly casting creationism in a pro-creationism light, given, and I'm getting to the point of ad nauseum here, that ONLY CREATIONISTS USE THE TERM, AND WHEN NON-CREATIONISTS USE THE TERM THEY ARE EITHER REFERRING TO THE TERM AS USED BY CREATIONIISTS OR USING THE TERM TONGUE IN CHEEK.

Are we going to maintain NPOV or aren't we. If we are, the term is creationism. If we're going to bow down to the fringe group, keep using creation science. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.239.163.141 (talk) 13:24, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

Here the deal, the sources in the article refer to it as creation science, we go by what the sources says. WP:VER Supersedes the relatively pedantic debate we are having here. Tmtoulouse 17:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

But, according to WP:VER, they should be " third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy"... " Questionable sources should only be used in articles about themselves " If not, you could insert "axis of evil" or "evil empire" in a lot of wiki's Corailrouge-eng 18:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The argument for removing it was not that it was not a term that is used in conjunction with Conservapedia, but that using the term anywhere was inappropriate. That has been debunked through strong source material, and there is currently a consensus to use the term. Whether we put it in quotes or not, I don't care. But it's an important and accuracte way of describing the site's approach to science in general, and any other description would be too verbose to be an improvement. VanTucky ^(talk) 18:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Uh since when is Wired Magazine a questionable source? Tmtoulouse 18:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

You mean this article? They clearly use quotes for "creation science" in How the next generation of "creation science" is invading America's classrooms, and also further down (search for as "creation science" ). They use the word creationism 4 times on the first page. Corailrouge-eng 20:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

No I mean, this piece which is sourced in the article for the term in question. Tmtoulouse 20:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I see. You said it, but I was mistaken and thought you were talking about the google news search in the earlier post. There is mention of "an encyclopedia of creation science ", I agree it is there. Corailrouge-eng 21:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Look, it appears that we're all on the *same team*, but that, given the fact that I can't see faces or hear tones some things are being interpreted in a hostile way when they probably aren't intended as such. My point was not that creation science is never used, only that it is used by creationists or folks who simply don't know better. Back in the 80's, the Big Bang Theory was still referred to as the Big Bang hypothesis every once in a while by the non-scientific community, even though it had basically decimated the steady state theory by that point. By the same token, creation science is accidentally used by the non-scientific public sporadically (i.e. the Wired article), but nearly all journalists and all scientists use the term creationism when referring to fundamentalists' Christian beliefs concerning the origin of the universe. I am reverting to perspective of creationism, not to be a jerk or an edit fascist (or whatever the appropriate term may be), but to generate attention so that you come to to the talk page and we can hammer this out.

I feel quite strongly that the term should be creationism; that creation science only abets the loonies and, that; creation 'science' is only used as a misnomer or by folks who really believe that the earth was created 7,000 years after the first recorded instance of the Cherokee people. Cheers to all. Sorry about the militance before.

The term creation science has a promotional dimension, too, of course. Corailrouge-eng

Sanctions

Conservapedia has sanctions as a disctinguishing feature. They are on the commandments page. That is reason enough to leave the section on them in the wiki. I propose to put the section back in place Corailrouge-eng 20:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Is the comparison right?

In the article, it compares Conservapedia's 9 commandments to only two of Wikipedia's five pillars, not even mentioning the rest of the policies and guidelines. Is this a biased comparison? --JDitto 02:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The rest of the policies and guidelines for which project. The 5 pillars are a overall summary of all our policies, and I feel the 9 commandments are the same of Conservapedia. It is correct, but needs to be expanded upon. --w^{L<speak·check>} 02:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I can see your point, it might be a good idea to compare WP:5P with the Conservapedia commandments. At the very least we should refer to WP:V and WP:NOR rather than WP:A, as the latter is no longer policy in its own right. Hut 8.5 14:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Impossible to navigate

Conservapedia is impossible to navigate. When browsing it (i spent an hour frustrated with it this morning... not the most accurate assessment i guess), you will find that every single article is blocked from editing. Later on, my username was banned for the reason of "please chose another name" (don't understand why "itsnotmyfault" is an illegitimate username to begin with). to discuss the block, the site invites me to post an edit to the blocker's (or other admin's) discussion page... a little hard to do when A) every article is protected and B) you're blocked from posting... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.110.111 (talk) 13:19, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

This talk page is intended for discussion of the Wikipedia article on Conservapedia, not Conservapedia itself. Hut 8.5 13:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

---

Logical definitions

What is the name of the logical misdirection of which "A Conservative Encyclopedia You Can Trust." is an example - are there conservative encyclopedias which cannot be trusted etc (and some non-US conservative encyclopedias which can)?

Can someone do an archive on this talk page. Jackiespeel 15:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Again, this page is for discussion of the Wikipedia page on Conservapedia, not for discussion of Conservapedia itself. StaticElectric 16:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I was asking for a definition/link (g). IMO most of the discussions about Conservapedia, its USPs and what people here think of it have already been gone through - and the meta-analysis of the various Wikis and their USPs belongs in another place. Jackiespeel 17:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Restrictions on Free Speach

A friend of mine recently joined Conservapedia.[3] In it, he posted a section on the user talk page labeled 'Bias,' [4] and challenged its views toward Wikipedia and bias in articles ([5]). Within the hour that he posted this, several notable editors jumped in and added their own opinions, the editors being the owner of the site, Aschlafy, as well as major editors iDuan and Rob Smith. In addition, the user Joaquin Martinez decided to send him a message saying "We're glad you are here to edit articles better than to Talk. OK?," my friend stated that he was trying to learn via discussion, which is his favored way of learning, rather than simply editing articles. However, this immediately sparked a remark from his friend, --şŷŝôρ-₮K, who criticized him for his lack of editing, and questioned his Christian morals. He even made the case that my friend's comment on grammar was racist because Joaquin was apparently Mexican. He left him with two comments: 1)"Know that I will indeed be watching you 2) so don't be surprised, shocked or dismayed not to be able to edit at any time.

My friend and I are outraged at this injustice. It seems that whenever someone comes on with a differing opinion to Conservapedia's views, they are ridiculed and "watched." This is clearly a group of high-up editors banding together to control this wiki. No self-respecting non-biased encyclopedia would do this, so I propose two things:

1) Anybody else that this or something similar has happened to please list your name below. Please include your story, your comments, and any hacking or legal action taken against you because of your activities on Conservapedia.

1. User:Rucha58 05:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC) (See Above for Story) [No legal action or hacking so far.]

2) A project or task force set up to investigate these injustices.

1. User:Rucha58 05:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

While you will find many in agreement with you - it doesn't change the fact that it constitutes original research and anecdotal evidence. Wisdom89 05:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Good point. I'm somewhat new to creating articles and the entire wikiproject concept. Do have any suggestions as how to obtain non-original research? User:Rucha58 06:29, 18 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rucha58 (talk • contribs)

You would have to scour the internet for verification using secondary and tertiary sources which explicitly addresses your concerns regarding conservapedia and its suppression/violation of free speech. A primary source, like conservapedia or wikipedia itself would not be sufficient. Hope that helps.. Wisdom89 06:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

You do not have free speech rights on someone else's Web site, Conservapedia or Wikipedia. In particular this entire discussion does not belong here. As StaticElectric points out above "this page is for discussion of the Wikipedia page on Conservapedia, not for discussion of Conservapedia itself."--agr 09:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Those are some good points. I probably got carried away with the title, because it's my general view that if a wiki claims to be nonbiased it will have reasonable editing debates, such as we're having here. However, I might be discussing this in the wrong place. I should probably remove this section and take my complaints to a forum which debates this sort of thing. Thanks for your helpful insights. User:Rucha58 21:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Incivility from Conservapedia leaders?

Some of the Conservapedia editors (especially Andy Schlafly) do have a history of incivility: personal attacks, flaming, etc. If criticism shows up in "reputable sources" then would it be eligible for inclusion? The decision would have to be careful since it would probably show up in Andy's "Examples of Bias in Wikipedia" page/rant on Conservapedia. - Pingveno ( talk | contrib ) 22:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the appropriate place to put it would be the criticism/reaction section - and the claims would need to be backed by reliable secondary third party sources Wisdom89 23:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

"Rampant liberal bias"- POV?

Surely this phrase which keeps popping up in the wiki article is POV? "Percieved liberal bias" would be a better wording. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.11.98 (talk) 11:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

"Liberal bias", so on and so forth

While I appreciate that edits such as this raise the ire of Wikipedia editors, I wonder at the inclusion of the information that "The site had 13,000 registered usernames of which about 7,000 were permanently blocked (about 54%)." This seems designed exclusively as a crowing contrast to the enormity of Wikipedia itself, any thoughts? Mallocks 12:04, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I imagine it's more of a jibe at the amount of editors they ban for vandalism or for disagreeing with them. Since we have absolutely no context for the blocks, though - maybe a spammer made 7,000 accounts one morning - it seems a bit meaningless to report the fact without a secondary source to put it into some sort of context. --McGeddon 12:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Aren't reasons for users being banned reported in the Conservapedia wiki? Dave420 14:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's been 24 hours since I raised the question and given its extremely dubious encyclopedic merit I'm getting rid of it. Mallocks 12:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

POV mess

This article reads like it's on Conservapedia itself. I'm not sure what can be done other than a wipe and restart. Is anyone who's not a regular Conservapedia editor working on this article? Simões (^talk/_contribs) 03:08, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree that adding terms like "liberal deceit" and "pro-gay" to the article is definitely not appropriate. But I noticed another change to the article when I looked at what I was reverting... Someone snuck in a link to Fox News Channel in the see also. Although Fox News was started as an alternative to the perceived liberal bias of CNN, having it alongside GodTube (vs. YouTube and MyChurch (vs. MySpace) just seems wrong. Luatha 03:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

There is also no substantial, reliable sources confirming that FOX is a perceived conservative alternative to CNN and etc. It's best to leave that out. The POV push by a disruptive editor has been noted at WP:ANI#Requesting a quick look at Conservapedia, and the offending user has been blocked twice already; an outright ban wouldn't be all too bad, in my opinion. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 03:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I've never before seen 'liberal' used to such profound effect as a slur. And this is "debate", the user angrily proclaims in their edit summaries. As I state in the section above I do believe there's room for improvement ("Wikipedia's co-creator Jimmy Wales has stated that he has no objections to the project"? Big who cares), but going from one stance to entirely the other isn't it. Mallocks 09:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

As a side note to those unfamiliar with American politics - or familiar with it and understandably baffled - in certain circles, "liberal" equates with "bad". It's used by many conservatives (e.g. "liberal media bias" that Fox fans and their associates talk about, "liberal agenda" as a path to socialism, even the term "bleeding heart liberal"). Rush Limbaugh and Michael Savage are good examples of people who decry things as liberal in this sense. Hillary Clinton in one debate summed it up when she was asked about considering herself a liberal and she said something to the effect of "the term 'liberal' has been used so negatively so often that I'd have to say 'progressive' instead". So whereas in some countries "liberal" might be a good adjective, in US politics, yes, it's almost a slur depending on who's using it. Luatha 19:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

"Pedantic" and "Pedant"

Maybe we could include some information about the Big Word that some Conservapedia users have learned: "Pedantic". The word has been redefined as "any writing by one that disagrees with me". They don't use it correctly but it's so widespread on the site that it's practically a culture reference.71.35.252.65 04:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

• What are your sources? --Transfinite (Talk | Contribs) 17:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

• Sorry. That was inappropriate. Never mind - I was in a bad mood when I wrote that.128.187.0.164 15:05, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be "Conservopedia"?

Sorry but that's been bugging me. I mean I know they spell it "Conservapedia" but it just doesn't look right. Serendi^podous 10:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

They take the 'a' from 'conservative' rather than the 'o' from 'encyclopedia'. It could go either way, I guess. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 10:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Even if this was the case, proper spelling and proper names don't necessarily coincide. :) Luatha 00:55, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

About plagiarism

Since this bit was removed and inserted a few times now, it may be an idea to duke it out here.

Maybe I can start this by giving some general info (no third-party sources to my knowledge; just so editors have a rough idea what's going on): Yes, several articles on CP are plagiarized. As a matter of fact, Andrew Schlafly explicitly encourages copy-paste jobs as long as the source is a .gov site (with the exclusion of state sites or something).

The reasoning being: "We paid for work on government websites. It's ours already. It's not just public domain, but it is also bought and paid for by the public. So it's fine to copy unbiased material from such sites. Of course the entries can and should then be improved. But it helps having a start, and having a succinct explanation." (Andrew Schlafly, July 2, 2007)

(Trivia: Schlafly also has this to say about Wikipedia: "Moreover, is copying OK to 'kickstart' a project? No, of course not, especially when attribution is not prominently given for such wholesale copying." - don't ask me how the two statements fit together, especially since their government copy-paste jobs are not always marked as such...)

As such, the copying from .gov sites can be horribly obvious on a "good day". Especially during their official "team contests" (the second one ended a few hours ago), where teams get points for creating articles, no matter if they're copy-paste jobs or not.

I actually sometimes took the time to check the New Article log for obvious copy-paste jobs, with quite interesting results: June 23 check (a day on which the sysops suddenly declared that they wanted to break the record for the most new articles per day); first 12 hours of the first team contest day. Even browsing those lists briefly shows how common the copy-paste jobs are.

These cases are legal (I guess... I'm no expert there), but they go against the first commandment ("Do not copy from Wikipedia or elsewhere unless it was your original work.").

However, it doesn't really end there. Quite a few articles are plagiarized/copied from copyrighted sources. Those cases are often removed on sight, but sometimes, the sysops do the copying, and then the motto seems to be "Don't remove it; edit it so it's not a direct copy anymore". It's cringeworthy, but it happens. In some cases, the sysops (once confronted) ask the source site for permission. Sometimes, they heavily lean on re-use policies to justify the copy-pasting.

Summing up: The edit in question is factual and verifiable by looking around, but I don't know of any Notable/Reliable Source that covers it. I'll leave it to the more policy-experienced editors to figure out what to do with this. I just felt like sharing some insight and maybe start discussion on the "Should we include it? If so, how?" questions. --Sid 3050 01:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

There's such a thing as unbiased information from a .gov (or .gov.[insert coutry]) website? Oh, right...

But seriously, the answer is no, it shouldn't be included unless at least someone wrote about it somewhere remotely notable, and even then, WP:WEIGHT needs to be considered. Just as we can't allow POV pushing in defense of Conservapedia, we can't go out of our way to condemn them. Luatha 06:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid Luatha is correct - unless a published reliable source identified and then wrote about it, there is no way to include the information in the article, despite it being patently obvious by users if they take your advice and navigate the site to find examples. That's just the way it works around here. What you are proposing fails WP:NOR and WP:V. I'm not entirely in agreement about WP:WEIGHT as I feel it does not apply here, but that point is moot. Hope that helps. Wisdom89 06:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I figured (hence the mention of no Reliable Sources), but I didn't propose anything (other than suggesting that the more experienced people puzzle it out), just like I wasn't a member of the back and forth on the article page. Just noticed that there was disagreement on the page, so I felt like noting it on the talk page :) --Sid 3050 12:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I've removed a paragraph about this which cited RationalWiki as a source (wikis can't be used as sources, and shouldn't be listed as external links per WP:EL). -- Rick Block (talk) 01:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikis "with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors" are acceptable under WP:EL, but you're right that we can't cite RationalWiki as a source in this case - the page being cited is just a publicly editable list of amusing observations about Conservapedia, with no editorial control. --McGeddon 14:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think Rational Wiki is not a reliable source, since anyone can edit it. (Yes, this means Wikipedia is not a reliable source either.) --Transfinite (Talk | Contribs) 17:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)