Talk:Real-time strategy

New section to history header

Some of the discussion below has revolved around which was the "first" RTS, the "first true" RTS etc. Some have expressed dismay over certain (personal favorite or perceived as particularly important) titles not having been treated or mentioned. Though of historical interest and certainly deserving the treatment it receives in the article I think that focusing on the historical/definitional aspects of RTS misses some important points, namely treating the games that have shaped the public awareness of the genre. I have therefore Changed the "brief history" header to just "History" and added a section on Westwood and Blizzard's games between 1992--1998, which I argue more than other (previous and contemporary) titles formed the popular definition of RTS games, and which all later RTS titles still are understood and measured against. Mikademus 09:31, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Looks good so far. I'll holler if I see problems. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 09:37, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

To complete the historical dicussion I also added a "Later additions to the RTS genre" section under history. While I think that I've gotten the main point across -that few genuine innovations have been introduced to the genre since 1995- the section could perhaps be fleshed out, examples added and peer reviewed for factual flaws. Mikademus 14:21, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

RTS ?= War game

this is heavily leaning toward the wargame end. RTS also includes all the Sim Games, such as Sim City, Railroad Tycoon, Dungeon Keeper, Populous etc. --Tarquin 17:30 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)

I thought they were in a different genre: god game. --Martin 23:34, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Correct. None of the above games are RTS games.

POV on popularity and skill

Because of the generally faster-paced nature (and the usually shallower learning curve), RTS games have exceeded the popularity of conventional turn based games. Many serious strategy gamers regard RTS games as "cheap imitations" of turn-based games because of the tendency of RTS games to devolve into "clickfests", in which the player who is faster with the mouse generally wins, because they can give orders to their units at a faster rate. Also, the faster pace masks the generally poor AI of the computer.

Above=disguised POV. The many professional players of StarCraft, for example, are unlikely to be pleased at being deemed non-serious... --Martin 23:34, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)

(long overdue response): Agreed. I changed it to say "traditional" instead, maybe "turn-based strategy gamers" would be even better. Also, I clarified that "conventional turn based games" was probably referring to computer/video strategy games, not including board games. --Mrwojo 21:18, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Blinkered historical perspective

It never ceases to amaze me how people think this or that genre of game began in their time. In a nutshell: Herzog Zwei isn't even _close_ to the first real-time strategy game. The Ancient Art of War from Broderbund, released in 1984, is generally considered to be the first, although it is possible that there was an earlier title on the Intellivision or Colecovision consoles.

I would contest that Star Raiders, a cartridge game for the Atari 400/800 computers and the 2600 VCS, is probably the first one of the "real time" games.

Currently, Stonkers is listed as first (from 1983). I've had a shot of it and its plainly a RTS game. Any further info on Star Raiders and what year it was released? Zagrebo 20:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

"Macro" examples

Another example of macro based games would be the Total Annihilation Series. They gave the idea of almost endless resources. Create as many units as your PC can handle :)

As I understand the distinction is not really the number of units, but the control mechanism. Either you control individual units (soldiers, vehicles) by basically grabbing them by a selection box or you control groups (that are actually called units in real life - each containing many individual soldiers) by clicking on them. Total Annihilation (or the original C&C) had a lot of units, but still the number was unrealistically small (tens, at most hundreds, of soldiers in an army). Macro games (Total War series being the best and most prominent example have thousands and will have tens of thousands in the near future) units. --Paranoid 11:50, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That's not really the way the term is used in practice. "Macro" games are generally defined as having large numbers of units and on the economic side of the game being more developed and important compared to "Micro" games. TA is quite a macro-oriented game. In fact it might be better to replace the macro and micro sections with the description of the spectrum from very macro-oriented to very micro-oriented. I would actually considered R:TW to be a 100% micro oriented RTS because the economics all occurs in the turn-based part. Micro basically means "unit control" and macro basically means "economic production". --ShardPhoenix 08:34, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

RTS innovations list

• Rescue Raiders
  • Fully real-time
  • Resource management
  • Multiple units

• Herzog Zweig
  • Simultaneous 2-player
  • Complex animation for units during combat

• Dune
  • Resource gathering
  • Direct control of units (HZ & AoW used AI &/r statistical comparisons)

• War Craft
  • Network & Internet play, head-to-head & cooperative
  • Heroes

• Star Craft
  • Large unit maximum (200)
  • 3D rendering of units
  • 3 comparatively different armies with noticibly different units
  • Zerg Rush
  • Professional RTS
  • Bunkers

• Age Of Empires
  • Larger max
  • Very Historically Accurate Units
  • Actual 3D units (but in a 2-D playing environment)
  • Worker Bell (calling all non-combatants to "man their battlestations")
  • Greater Economic Concerns (tributes & trades)

What else we got? --Duemellon 18:40, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

AOE didn't have 3D units - they were prerendered, like in SC. I think that TA might have been the first to have 3D units. --Paranoid 19:39, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

2 Graphics Paragraphs

There was one 2D/3D graphics paragraph in the main body and another in the Graphics section, each overlapping the other in text, but citing different examples. I took a crack at combining them under the Graphics section, and kept all games referenced in either paragraph. See if you think the resulting paragraph is clear. --Coll7 02:43, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Command and Conquer

I can't beleive C&C isn't mentioned here. While I can't think off the top of my head of any drastically new gameplay aspects it introduced, the genre is certainly defined by C&C just as much as it is by AoE and the Blizzard "-craft" games. Speaking of which, I added Starcraft II (?) to the list of future games because, though Blizzard has said they have no immediate plans to make a Starcraft II, they intend to return to that world in the future (and nobody honestly beleives that by this they meant Ghost), and what's more, Starcraft II must be one of the most desired RTS games that may possibly come out. If anybody disagrees with me, feel free to revert, I'm really not too passionate about it.

But C&C deserves a mention on this page. Zelmerszoetrop 22:52, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Rescue Raiders?

isn't it worth mentioning Rescue Raiders in here. Sure, it was single player only, but it did allow for a real-time creation of multiple units (and stuck you with the choplifter god character). Great game, that.

Game reviews?

The Outforce

This game, by o3 games, had a fully 3D gamefield, but gameplay was 2 dimensional. This solved the problem of units getting in each others way because they could "stack" and move above or below one another. The POV of the field is rotatable 360 degrees, tiltable from directly overhead to about 70 degrees and can be zoomed out to almost the whole map and zoomed in until the smallest unit nearly fills the entire screen.

Anything on the field could be destroyed, even planets, if enough firepower was applied. (Time to destroy a planet was approximately 4 to 6 hours, and the explosion could destroy most of the field.) Apply enough firepower and no barrier could stand in a players way, but of course the new hole would also provide a path for the enemy.

The construction units can be directed to repair buildings or other units. They can also be set to guard buildings or other units. In guard mode, they'll automatically repair the building or unit and will speed up construction by buildings with that ability. Any number of construction units may be set to construct, repair or guard. Putting a dozen construction units on guard on one building will make constructing new ships very fast.

Unit construction can be queued. Anything a building can construct may be queued in any order in any numbers. Want 5 small fighters followed by 2 large battleships followed by one construction unit? No problem. Want that pattern repeated to infinity, or until the player stops it? Can do! Each unit construction building may have a rally point set for the units to move to as they're released.

Construction units can also have their orders queued with what and where to build. Build 6 solar plants *here* then a fusion plant *there* followed by three laser turrets elsewhere then return to guard a construction building.

A unique feature of this game was the Towship, which could be used to move buildings, weapons turrets, radars and walls around. Different items had different mass so large buildings took more than one Towship to move. Careful manuvering could be used to "slingshot" weapons turrets and large bombs into enemy defenses.

Another feature of this game was unlimited group sizes. If you wanted to have 221 ships in a group, no problem. The way this game burnt through the units, a player _needed_ large groups to defeat a well protected base.

The multiplayer maps provided are not limited to the number of players shown. Up to the maximum number of players may be selected for any map. The game will locate the "extra" players somewhere, hopefully not right next door to an enemy player. This feature can be used to "shake up" the typical "one path" attack the AI tends to slip into.

The AI in The Outforce is fairly decent. Units have good pathfinding and rarely get stuck. The AI will often find and take advantage of holes a player leaves in defenses, especially in some of the campaign maps.

The unfortunate thing about an otherwise good game was o3 games turned over the rights to the publisher. In turn, the publisher pushed for an early release. The result was a game with only a campaign for the Terrans and all three races units varying only in graphics, effects and audio. However, it's still a good and different game for multiple human players.

There is a bug when playing VS an AI opponent. If the AI is at the "bottom" of the map, units can get stuck inside construction buildings that are built or get moved too close to that edge of the map. The unit stuck inside will attack enemy units that get close enough but unless it gets destroyed or something moves the building away from the edge, that building is out of action. Human players on the bottom edge are advised to not build too close to the edge or use towships to move buildings pushed against the edge by explosions or collisions. (Just part of the "legacy" of the game being hurried out by the publisher.)

Star Trek: Armada

This game brings nothing much new to the RTS genre, other than it's a Star Trek game. In my own experience, it's easy to defeat the maximum number of AI players on "hard" difficulty, using only three maximum size groups of capital ships. One to guard the base and the other two to roam around and blow stuff up until the AI completely gives up and stops doing anything. It doesn't matter if all the AI's are allied or not, they're a pushover because the AI never uses multiple unit groups in concerted attacks.

However, the campaigns are quite well designed and get very difficult in later maps.

For multiplayer, stick to human opponents once you've beaten the "best" the AI has to offer.

Why are these here? --maru (talk) Contribs 17:57, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Modded a screenshot: high-res + high-Q

Higher quality screenshots should be posted here in the main article. We have too many blurry JPG's, that i believe are less desirable and informative, especially about the in-game quality. I took the liberty to upload a hi-q, hi-res screenshot for command and conquer generals for a start. is such a high resolution appropriate? Omega Said 11:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)