User talk:Nishidani

Goodbye to many friends and acquaintences.

Neil, Ceedjee, Avruch, Tewfik, Malik Shabazz, Imad, John Carter, Itzse, Eleland, Ashley, PhilKnight, LamaLoLeshla, ColourintheMeaning, Nomoskedasticity,Pedrito, ZScarpia, Petercohen, IanPitchford, PR, dearest Tiamut, RolandR, Steve SM8900, Sposer, Nickhh, Currie and G-Dett, Pinkville, Gatoclass, Jaakobou, and many more that don't come spontaneously to mind, but should figure.

Rather than blanking this page, I think the correct procedure is to archive it.

I've always in life and in wiki, hit out hard at the slightest sign of prejudice, especially antisemitism. I dislike at the same time the use of that word with malice aforethought, carelessly, of people like myself with a critical temper. Fling it about with tactical cynicism, and the potency of the tremendous burden the term wears to attuned mind is deadened, and the concept itself becomes what real antisemites would like it to become, dead coinage, a token in the deflated currency of cheap slang matches. So over the last few days, while registering mild disgruntlement, making due warnings, and nudging a person who did, whatever he might say, insinuate that I was antisemitic (from an article I took pride in cleaning up, and where he and co,. have edited poorly), to retract. I felt it odd that this simply passed by as though it were on a par with any other casual taunt, or impromptu piece of reproving tattle, like calling me an paranoid egotist with an inferiority superiority complex, a gross infringement of I/P editing rules that was met with administrative silence, though customarily it is the sort of attack that earns its launcher immediate suspension. I was strongly tempted to ask for administrative action, but didn't because such a step might have borne with it a semblance that I was using a complaint as a pretext to get rid of Amoruso from the Lehi page (apart from my native grain, that blokes don't whinge. Which is true, but only because they can slug it out, at least verbally, which you can't on wiki). After however a further succession of remarks twisting the record and my remarks out of all recognition, I did endeavour to register that protest. But I did not know how to apply my request to the appropriate forum. Amoruso obliged me, and I added my comment on the page. It shaped up as though I, who have spent many days trying to bring evidence, sources, rationally assayed, to a difficult issue, was indeed the culprit. This together with the sudden archiving (no doubt accidental) of the whole Lehi page where our recent interchanges had taken place, and the fact that my efforts to elicit evidence for assertions were met with abstract rule-waving that ignored what is disruptive behaviour that betrays no trace of intelligent editing, broke the straw of the camel's back. Yeats was on my mind, some figure of a salmon popping into mind until I recalled the words, This is no country for old men'. This is indeed Byzantium, not Yeats's, but 'byzantine' in the sense of an infinite Kafkian labyrinth of intricately wikilawyered regulations that, fastidiously applied irrespective of the real content questions at stake, can make a mockery of anyone seriously committed to bring to this difficult area of the encyclopedia an informed, and impartial contribution, when they must edit in a milieu where scalp-taking deliquency is not infrequent. It's, on the positive side, a world for the young, their vitality, speed and high intelligence undergirds a project that appeals to me because it is financially disinterested, if not politically neutral. The old are therefore not of much use, what they have learnt in several decades, in composition, the sedulous survey of sources for relevance, and reading, is frail when face to face with, in certain editors, wilful mischief, disattention to details, endless prevarication inspissate (a word beloved of T.E.Lawrence) with vapid opinionizing, carelessness with language, riding on the back of their passionate convictions. It's been a great two years. I hope something of what I contributed will stick. A word to Ceedjee. Imad went to some trouble to get those quotes from Amin's memoirs. I hope when you get round to helping with that page, you can position it in some form. I would really have liked to have pushed through to the end, and made it finally to GA standards. But I've just erased a file of 50 pages of notes accumulated on the subject over the last year to make sure this is my last appearance here.

No comments, one way or another, please. This is not compelled (and therefore no one but myself is responsible), but a choice I've made. And Neil, if you can archive this page tomorrow morning (I stilll have a copy to make and a few other things). Best regards. Ciao wiki! Nishidani (talk) 20:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Replies

• Hi. Wow, hard to believe. sorry if you feel things got a bit negative. by the way people are always free to change their minds around here. Just wanted to mention that. Hope all your efforts and activities go well. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 20:44, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• I respect your decisions, but allow me to protest to this one? Differences and disputes with other editors are always going to exist, but is leaving WP the solution? In all cases, you surely have made WP a better place during your presence here, and I do hope that you will change your mind about leaving. Imad marie (talk) 21:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• You have also shown me that you are an extremely useful and informed editor, and we would be better off with you present. Having said that, I do note that the content with which you deal is among the most contentious we have, and that opinions regarding the content will often create bad blood. That does not mean that the project is not better for your presence. And, for what it's worth, I am in the process of trying to find a way to write a Wikinews article on Gabriel's Vision, based on the information you have given me. Unfortunately, I don't think I've ever written one before, so it might take a while. I would hope that you would return, as your insight and knowledge have been vital to the project in the past, and I have every reason to believe that they would be just as important in the future. John Carter (talk) 21:30, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not far off in joining you, basically because of what's going on over there and because of many similar reasons. As Wikipedia gets bigger and worse not better; the noose is being constantly tightened against us. To give our free labor, is a privilege we are told; Wikipedia is not a Democracy we are also told; what it is we aren't told. I wish I knew what will be the end with WP, and make my decision now based on that, but lacking a crystal bowl, I'll need to make a judgment call to stay or quit. Although we disagree a lot, and I don't feel that we disagree that much, because deep deep down in your soul, I know that you know I'm right; but nevertheless I found you intellectually stimulating. I think meeting you in Rome and having a long discussion is much cheaper and much more worthwhile then wasting our time here. Maybe I'll even be able to change you back into a friend of the Jews or at least get you to be neutral. Smart people, learn from the mistakes of others, ordinary people learn from their own mistakes, and fools never learn. Itzse (talk) 22:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't think you will find many people who are a more genuine, real friend of the Jews than Nishidani. --NSH001 (talk) 23:31, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
    • You got a point there. He did at times exclaim awe of the Jewish people, but worked untiringly for the interests of the Palestinians. I will dare say that the length he took to defend the Palestinians equaled the depth of his admiration of the Jews. Itzse (talk) 23:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• I am happy enough to comply with your request to archive this page, which I will do tomorrow (it's certainly long overdue for archiving). However I'm not going to refrain from commenting on your (I hope not permanent) departure. You are an exceptionally valuable editor. I don't have anything like your intimate acquaintance with the relevant sources on Israel-Palestine articles. Like you, I find editing I-P articles distressing, which is why I only do it intermittently. I see it as part of my wiki job to give you some moral support here, which is why your sudden departure is such a blow (and I'm well aware that I could have given you more support recently, but my wiki time is limited). You have made enormous improvements to Wikipedia, and it's been a pleasure reading your contributions. Best wishes, and I hope you'll be able to come back here when you feel able and ready. --NSH001 (talk) 23:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• I regret your decision, which will leave some of us even more exposed. Having gained one scalp, those apparently intent on manipulating Wikipedia for partisan ends may feel emboldened to target others. Your erudition, and your patience in discussion, have been exemplary, and will be greatly missed. I continue to hope that you will reconsider, though I recognise that there are more important things in life. I'm sure that you will a valuable contribution wherever you continue your work. RolandR (talk) 23:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• Salut. Ce n'est pas nécessairement une mauvaise chose de quitter wikipedia. C'est par de nombreux aspects un poison et une perte de temps incroyable. A l'occasion d'un voyage, ce serait avec plaisir que je te rencontrerais pour "refaire le monde" :-) Amitiés. Ceedjee (talk) 08:52, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

• Come back! It's getting lonely over in Jerusalem. On the other hand, maybe we could all use a break. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 19:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC) By the way, for the record, Nishidani called attention to user:Cush's anti-semitic inuendo ("Jew Crew"); when I tried to engage Cush in a dialogue, Nishidani's reaction was, "just ban him! zero tolerance for antisemitism".
• Very glad to see you back just now. Hope you stay. It's rather more boring without you!John Z (talk) 16:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Potential copyright issue

Nishidani, I notice that you have a near 1000 word quote on your user page. Aside from the fact that User page should not be used for polemical speeches (see Wikipedia:UP#NOT), I suspect that an extremely lengthy quotation like this is a copyright violation. Could you confirm whether or not it is, indeed, a copyright violation? Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:12, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The copyright is fine. "CPT material is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License." [1]
--NSH001 (talk) 07:56, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I have added a copyright notice according to the terms of the licence.

--NSH001 (talk) 08:20, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

AN post misplaced

Hi, I've noticed that you have placed a comment sorta "out of order" on AN. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard&diff=229760669&oldid=229759781 please and see what I'm referring to. You have placed your comment inbetween an ongoing conversation. The reply below yours was intended to be after G-Dett, not yours. If you would fix it, I would appreciate it as it does mix up the reading order. —— nixeagle 12:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Attitude to RfCs

Hi Nishidani - thought you might be interested to see this comment yesterday. It can be enjoyed alone, or one might compare it with this from the day before. My well-known weaknesses as a thinker probably make it impossible for me to work out what important principles of the project are on display.

I don't think I'm canvassing, but just in case I'll send it to User:Nixeagle as well. PR^talk 09:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Pure condescension from a pseud in Polonius's corner but

I'm breaking my rule again, but this is not editing, which I deeply enjoy, and therefore . . . Twenty years ago I spent a week arguing night and day with a friend on the proposition 'If I am hit by a thrown stone, no matter whoever threw it, I am to blame'. My friend lives in terms of this principle of absolute responsibility. I think that, philosophically, I won the argument, i.e., that it is simply not operationally true, though psychoanalytically there is a deep truth hidden there (and my friend was a diagnosed 'schizophrenic' successfully treated by psychoanalysis), in that we are by nurture and nature, driven to be complicit in the world's woes while, on a conscious plane, deploring them and disavowing our personal responsibility. Still I accept that it is a useful moral myth, worth adopting. The advice my anecdote is intended to proffer is, I hope, evident. Never allow situations to arise in which you feel you are the victim. You do, read by others, appear to seek out situations in which you are personally challenged. You will find an inexhaustible number of people ready to exploit an heroic frailty of this order. If you have an inkling, however well founded, that this is how you feel, then you'll have to work it off. Bringing it into your edits is precisely what those who would rid wiki of your presence desire. If these situations recur and you play by the standard rules, then you are indeed complicit. Use occasions, where that possiility is being prompted by provocative edits, to examine your conscience, rather than indulge in (an otherwise justifiable) sense of outrage. In a certain sense, we also construct our grievances, and when one reads a vignette like, to name one of many, 'Tagar and the Teepee Family' (in Henryk Broder’s A Jew in the New Germany 2003 pp.124-129, from memory. It deals with an American Jewish couple who settled in Hebron), one should murmur, if one reads deeply, 'I too can see myself in this', though the story invites, on one plane, the reader to view those it describes as bizarre. Take a break, reflect on your conviction of certainty, which is a dangerous thing to have, use your extensive knowledge frugally, to enrich the texts, not to bait those who bait you, and, please, lastly, try an experiment. Find two figures within Judaism or Jewry, and Palestinian culture who have yet to earn themselves the page due to them, research them, and write the two bios up with care, contemporaneously. For Palestine I suggest Yitzak Shami, the Hebronite writer. Not to convince those who hunt for your scalp to lay off. But overfocusing on I/P conflicts, and not on many other dimensions that are less conflictual, is balm to the self, or, if you will, the soul. Best wishes. It is summer, enjoy it. Apologies for the paternalism, and goodbye for now Nishidani (talk) 18:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I understand what you're getting at, but I don't think it has much to say in real life. For example, racists make people's lives hell, and the solution is to name and shame and protest and strike back. Yes, smug people will treat you (and your supporters) as immersed in victimhood, but it's a lot better than trying to ignore it (or avoid it and let someone else take the rap). Ditto in a place like this, nobody came to this project to cheat, nobody really likes seeing it, and most people can see it (even if they often pretend not to). Tell me what you think of this - is it a policy-compliant revert or is it IDONTLIKEIT vandalism? PR^talk 18:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has little do do with real life. It is mostly, a drug, like the Net, except that there are many fine mainliners of splendid intelligence using it to sift wheat from the chaff. The labour of love is dyke-fingering, in the Dutch sense, naturally, against the tsunami of disinformatsiya. I have nothing against drugs of course, and have taken most that have come my way, for limited periods.

As for the antagonist you seem intent on facing down in a virtual replay of Wyatt and the Clanton gang (and you will lose, not because the victimizer will prove to be smarter, but simply because he will never be hampered by any sentimental idealism, or sense of justice, a fatal weakness in these duels), I have nothing to say except, off the cuff, I think of a remark Karl Kraus made in 1934.

But I see my advice is not understood, so, rather than pontificate orphically,...Best wishes on whatever trip you take, PR. Regards Nishidani (talk) 19:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I hinted last night that I'd take (or was taking) your invaluable advice to self-suspend for a period. It's not clear anyone even noticed I'd said this, which probably accounts for the uninterrupted discussion of sanctions against me. This morning I see it casually suggested here that I'm somehow comparable to a well-known and very large-scale cheat, who undoubtedly damaged dozens of articles with his abusive sock-puppetry, personal aggression, wiki-lawyering and edit-warring. (The case is here - the brave editor who raised it shortly left the project). That particular case bears examination for other reasons, and not just because most articles touched by Former User 2 in his 7,000 edits were almost certainly damaged by his conduct. Every effort was made keep this heavy-duty cheat on board - he was even absolved from divulging what other sock-puppets he'd been using! The UserPages of each of his two known sock-puppets User:Clintonesque and User:Teens! were deleted, making it impossible to check what they'd been up to. I was chastised and reverted for going to a few of the damaged articles and informing people there'd been serious cheating at work. I could have more to say on the subject of protecting abusive sock-puppetery, but with your e-mail not enabled, your delicate ears are protected from it. PR^talk 09:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Review of evidence

Your review of evidence on WP:AN is amazing. You've systematically destroyed pretty much every claim and every piece of innuendo against PR, while exposing those who just want him gone regardless of the cost, for what they really are. Keep up the good work! -- Mark Chovain 22:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

While I found it difficult to follow due to its sheer length. Are you sure it can't be stated as a more condensed and accessible account. El_C 05:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Issues

I have sent G-Dett some of the issues that have been raised to me and/or Ryan regarding PR's editing. I am awaiting his responses, comments, or corrections about them. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 14:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, Nishdani. As I said on the other page, I recognize and appreciate PR's intelligence, and I understand that he has a distinct point of view (which is completely acceptable, it is how that affects wiki editing that is the issue) as do many other people, myself included. What makes it somewhat more difficult for me is that my natural point of view is somewhat antipodal to PR's, so I need to be extremely careful when discussing issues with him, or about him, to ensure, both for myself and for others, that I am not letting any personal beliefs interfere with what I believe is the proper behavior on wikipedia.

At this point, PR has developed a reputation; some view it as a good reputation—others view it poorly. Regardless, his edit content and style has made him a focal point of discussion, for good or ill. That, in and of itself, is not good for the project, and I think that in order for the project, and the highly contentious issues of the I/P articles in particular, it behooves everyone to minimize issues of personality and discuss content as calmly as possible. With the now near instinctive reaction that PR engenders, that is very difficult. I had hoped that mentoring would have had some success, as it has with Jaakobu, who runs nearly every controversial edit in front of his mentors, and has demonstrated a distinct improvement in the areas of civility. I am not certain PR has done that. PR has also run through multiple mentors. Nishdani, what does that tell you?

As such, I think it would be good for everyone, including PR, if he took a vacation from I/P articles for a while. Upon return, demonstrating the ability to converse civilly with opponents, and the ability to compromise on a consensus, would go a long way in allowing whatever is in PR's past to remain quiescent.

As for possible discrepancies between how PR is treated as respects other editors, I am sure that people from the other camp have examples where they feel they were treated unequally. Moreover, as dispassionate as it may sound, it is an inherently destabilizing situation to allow improper behavior in one camp to balance improper behavior in another. Editors who create difficulty, from any ideological camp, need to be addressed on their own merits (Isarig, Zeq, etc. come to mind). I agree that other editors' behaviors should be discussed, but i do not believe that is then an exemption for PR's behavior.

I appreciate your taking the time to explain your position, I understand it, and I hope I have made my understanding of the situation as clear as I could. I would appreciate any comment or corrections of any misunderstandings that I may have. Thank you for your time and patience. -- Avi (talk) 15:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Your opinion, please. What I too extreme in my response on WP:AN? -- Avi (talk) 17:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you; you understood what I meant, and you expressed it more eloquently than I could have to Palestineremembered. I appreciate it. -- Avi (talk) 14:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no need for an apology at all. I am also glad that I wrote that "very few" of us are orators, as opposed to none . -- Avi (talk) 20:26, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi N. Thanks for your note on Agamben. Re: ArbCom, I believe anybody can file a request. I might do it, as I mentioned at the AN discussion. Wanted to let you know that I just posted a note about this on PR's Talk. Ciao. HG | Talk 03:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Crazy world

Thank you for your support.
I really thought that such things could not happen. Once again, on wp:fr, he would already be banned forever.
I know you don't like coercitive methodes but, well, it is a little bit hard to understand.
I don't have time to argue with "no argument"... Too much time ocnsuming.
Here my last work fr:Bataille de Latroun (1948). I know you don't like much articles on war operations but I am quite proud of this. I invite you to read the "historiography" sections... I was not aware of that before. Ceedjee (talk) 17:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Ceedjee

Re your attack on my block on his talk page, can you explain what exactly was wrong with my NPOV'ing of the article, and the statement that I "will not leave a trace on the articles you defended"? пﮟოьεԻ 57 17:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

FYI Nishidani, you might like to know that the block has been overturned at AN/I. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 18:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Ne te tracasse pas. Ce n'est pas bien grave mais c'est très désolant.

J'espère que l'échantillon d'éditeurs israliens n'est pas représentatif de toute la société bien que je craingne fort que oui.

Quand je pense à tout mes antécédents pro-Israéliens et à mes amis juifs, j'ai parfois peur.

Bon, la "bonne foi" n'est pas le propre de l'homme mais là, franchement...

Surtout, reste calme. Ca ne sert à rien de s'énerver...

Et puis, c'est une belle revenge d'écrire en français. Ils vont tous penser qu'on les insulte alors qu'il n'en est rien ;-)

Bonne continuation mais dis moi ce que tu penses sur la partie historiographie. Tu peux poster sur la page de discussion de fr:user:Latroun.

Amitiés, Ceedjee (talk) 20:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thx for your message on wp:fr.

I appreciate this.

Take care. Ceedjee (talk) 07:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

NB: Indeed Arab and Palestinian historiographies are poor and not well developed... But for Latrun, we can understand. For the 1948 exodus, that is something different and more difficult to handle with NPoV and accuracy. Ceedjee (talk) 07:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Retired wounded, awarded Purple Barnstar

		The Purple Barnstar
		For injuries received in service to the cause of good writing and historical accuracy. May you make a full recovery. PRtalk 14:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Now now, standards, if you insist on returning so quickly

I browse at times. You posted on the M.Durrah page. The points were at times useful, but please don't editorialize ('illiterates'). Be brief, to the point. And above all, check and cross-check. The French foreign minister Karsenty alludes to is not M.Hubert Vardin, but Hubert Védrine. The Canadian Jewish source you cited seems to be playing a rather shifty little game of innuendo by an error that, as it stands, is a rather sly allusion to the German spy Hubert Vardin in a short story by Conan Doyle. Nishidani (talk) 20:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

My apologies. I considered myself released from my obligation to you. Who would have supposed that the Zionist source I quoted would deliberately mislead us? PR^talk 20:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

No apologies needed. You have no obligation to me whatsoever. You have, as all do, an obligation to strive to meet the best standards of wiki editing, to justify our faith in your abilities.

p.s. (a) you use 'Zionist' rather mindlessly. This is a Jewish Canadian source. Learn to use le mot juste. You use adverbs rather wildly, as above 'deliberately'. That is an inference about the source on your part, and to use the adverb only feeds the imaginations of those who would argue you may at times think in conspiratorial terms. (I myself imagined (a) a slip of the 'pen' (b) a coincidence (c) a copy-editor, with a love of the minor short stories of Conan Doyle, making a private joke for friends). If you had an obligation to me, it would have been to behave with such propriety of analysis and language, that I should never succumb to the temptation to return to editing wiki, since qualitative improvements in the meantime would prove that no one is indispensable, and thus bludging fogies like myself might better enjoy their superannuation (and superfetation of words) pottering quietly in their gardens (instead of feeling that my observance of temporal distinctions in the classical English verbal system leaves much to be desired). Good luck, PR Nishidani

I discovered something interesting - Adam Smith observes that capitalists "seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices." But this does not make "The Wealth of Nations" a "conspiracy theory"! PR^talk 20:52, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but only for for those who never take the trouble to read the rest of the book, or at least ponder at length Book 4, chapter 2 (Everyman's edition, J.M.Dent 1975 pp.400ff.). Smith knew that merchants pushed to rig things to their own interest (as all lobbies do). They did not know however much if anything about the mechanisms relating to the way their countries, as opposed to their own interests, were enriched by the extension of market principles (ibid. p.380). There is an 'invisible hand' at work which promotes ends that the merchant himself is unaware of. Conspiracy theorists confuse the merchant with the 'invisible hand', which is an aggregate of interests including, but extending far beyond, the immediate calculations of individual economic agents.

Let me illustrate. Some think Zionism a conspiracy. Yet Zionism began as a project of secular nationalists to redeem Jewry from the stunting, obscurantist malaise of life in the shtetl where identity was keyed to religious traditions. It was bitterly opposed by the rabbinate. Now, it is the religious tradition which threatens Zionism's germinal secularism, as the religious right exerts constant pressure on the state to transform the nation into a vehicle for religious redemption. This is the law of unintended consequences, and its effects are far more prevalent in historical events than any ostensible 'conspiracy'.

Conspiracy theories in historical, political and economic thought have the same status as God in a scientific worldview, i.e., they provide simpletons with a specious 'solution' for problems of great complexity (generally see Philip Ball’s Critical Mass: How one thing leads to another). The fact that there is a certain formulaic similarity between Smith's statement and the proemion of Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion owes much to the fact that the latter is written to vindicate a feudal aristocracy whose power was destroyed by the mercantile forces that backed the Enlightenment whose emerging role Smith's theory justified. Antisemites confuse two distinct things, individual mercantile calculations, which are restricted to limited contexts, and the 'invisible hand' which is the logic of aggregate demand and supply. Smith's 'invisible hand' has been traced to Macbeth, but the proper source is Hamlet's:-

There is a divinity that shapes our ends

Rough-hew them as we will.

The divinity became, under the Smithian dispensation, the aggregate economy under conditions of unrestrained trade, merchants just rough-hewers among many other social actors. There is therefore nothing 'conspiratorial' in Smith's analysis. That Smith's materialistic reduction of 'God' as the founding principle of rational order (creation) is by now an ideological construct, that confuses the idea of a pure market with 'nature', and endows the former with the attributes and principles medieval minds associated with a divinely infused nature, is obvious.

If you can't bother with Adam Smith read Emma Rothschild's, Economic Sentiments: Adam Smith, Condorcet, and the Enlightenment, Harvard UP 2001 chapter 5. Conspiracies require omniscience and omnipotence, qualities only God had, until Nietzsche wrote his obituary. In one sense, there is just one vast conspiracy for which there is overwhelming evidence, and to which Sterne alluded in having Walter Shandy remark that, 'The world is in a conspiracy to drive out what little wit God has given us', a quip the Monty Python philosopher Eric Idle played off in the final words of his Galaxy Song. Nishidani 14:44, 25 August 2008

You've lost me a bit - the neo-cons could have plotted together to have 911 for immediate ideological or war-profiteering motives, but the "invisible hand" could have been a primeval realisation that it's time for a cull.

And I was under the impression that the Zionists (at least, the important branch, which was not Herzl's wing) were old-fashioned Russian/East European pre-Bolsheviks who could see no means to seize the Czarist wealth, needed a refuge to avoid the secret police, and which, in the event, instead opened their eyes to a people easy to dominate. They were not driven by religion, but by easy pickings and revolutionary zeal.

There's an extraordinary situation going on at the Jewish Internet Defense Force, where one guy and his recently formed group is considered entitled to an article, whereas much bigger, more significant groups of quite careful anti-Zionists are considered not entitled to the same thing. PR^talk 17:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The Neocons are not intelligent enough to mount a conspiracy. Everything they officially planned went wrong, as most neutral analysts said it would. What they aspired to do politically was announced long before, publicly. Conspirators do not go public. The most one can say of 9/11 (as with many other so called conspiracies from within) on the evidence is that certain branches of government or certain individuals within some governments may have been aware of a risk or even of the plot, but withheld that knowledge because they saw the obvious political advantages in having something like this occur. Keeping mum, and letting things happen, as they are planned even by one's enemies (Bin Laden and the Kandahar tapes), is far more prevalent in history than actual centralized conspiracies. To embrace 'conspiracies' is to cultivate 'paranoia' and one of the things about paranoia is that it tends to miss the obvious elements and facts in its pursuit of the devious 'Truth', which unlike the obvious which is often complex and messy, embraces everything in a crushingly simplistic hug. That is why, as with antisemitism, conspiracies appeal to simpletons (Antisemitism is the socialism of fools, it has been well said).

The way you view early Zionists is extremely simplified, confusing and, if I understand you, plain wrong. Reread, slowly, Lenni Brenner. In any case, Zionism succeeded because of (a)fundamental mistakes made on several crucial occasions by the Arab elites of Palestine. Amin al-Husayni is vilified in Zionist historiography, but they should build a monument to him, and (b) the Second World War and Hitler's Holocaust. Without this latter factor, most Jews would have done what they had usually done, opted for emigration to Western Europe or America if the chronic antisemitism of the Slavic East had not been reined in. Hitler's gift ('gift' in the German sense of a 'poison') to the West was to destroy one of the greatest creative elites within the West, and turn many of its survivors into troubled nationalists within, or emotionally committed to, an enclave in the Arab world, while depriving the Arab world of the leavening genius of its historically settled Jewish diaspora communities.

You really must cultivate a ticklish sense of irony and humour. The Jewish Internet Defense Force is a rather comical piece, using wiki to bignote a shoe-string operation. The title tells it all, in its confusion of what is virtually a one-man show posing as a massive ethnic force de frappe. I'd advise you not to mess with it, but merely, as many, sit back and enjoy the spectacle. There are intelligent people around who will bring its major delusions to heel.

I hope we are not violating any wiki rules by using this page as a consultancy on general issues you think I may be able to help you with. Nishidani (talk) 20:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Names

I always use names, where available...both sides....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:39, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm looking at arbitration procedures for future reference as I can see it needing arbitration later...crystal ball gazing...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:41, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani the Heron section is not about Palestinian settler violence as the violence in that section is from Israeli state parties not settlers (apart from the diplomats being attacked).... Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Tips are always welcome...rule books I prefer to forget, common sense should be enough, unfortunately on ME subjects it is not....Thanks....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 10:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Hebron has been non-Jewish for 95% of its history...with minor Jewish input for the rest...even the early history Hebron was Jewish controlled rather than a Jewish city..The cave of patriarchs is a crusader invention for tourism (pilgrims) for the cash flow (pilgrims only went to Jerusalem and it was done to encourage Latin settlements outside the area) as the site of the original cave had become disused....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 10:20, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

That is caricature, and if sourced, badly so. Rabbi Pinhas ben Hama spoke of it eight centuries before the Crusades. As for the early period, you are quite right that huge confusion arises from a Biblico-centric reading of Palestine/Israel and of using 'the Jews' to refer to a coherent tribal unity when historically we are dealing with a diverse congeries of groups whose descendents found their identity in the religious chronicles written in Hebrew. You underestimate the intensity of Jewish rabbinical attachment to the sacred topography of the Bible, something that has motivated consistent aliyah to places like Jerusalem and Hebron. The 'ethnic' majorities governing an area do not necessarily define its identity. For a large part of time, Turks dominated the Greek world, but that doesn't mean that the Greek attachment to their ancestral land must yield place to a predominantly Turkish reading, throughout the centuries down to the 1900s.

I do know that the cave of patriarchs was revered but by the time of the crusades the practice of visiting had fallen into disuse. Richard The crusades c. 1071-c 1291. ISBN 0521625661 and was then re-invented by the Latins as a recruiting aid....and yes I do "bite" although not in anger, it's more a pavlovian response, it's the inversion of reality that I'm responding to......Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 19:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Interesting hyperbole...Yes I am contented, which I count against myself in this benighted world...and yes my time would be better spent in research and writing than quibbling, it's a habit I should control more, only I get a perverse pleasure in sticking the occasional pin in...I do take your point an will try to curb it...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 19:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we move on splitting contemporary Hebron off from Historical Hebron?....PS I appreciate your "Turn of Phrase" and use of the English language, some of it is very elegant and always well crafted....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 12:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Assumption for future reference

(1) Anti-semitism as a generic trait applicable to most non-JewsNishidani (talk) 12:41, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

you forgot "and some Jews." Come on Nishidani, it's not like you actually like the Jewish people. You seem like you're fairly well educated. One cannot objectively look at the entire scope of Jewish history (even EXCLUDING the Holocaust) and not walk away with the thought that the majority of people have not taken kindly to the Jews. My apologies if I have learned the lessons of my history and walk away with the conclusion that most people hate me for being Jewish. The only times non-Jews seem to like Jews, is when those Jews also take an antagonistic stance toward other Jews (Chomsky, Finkelstein, the NK.) Or when Jews care so much about trying to make the non-Jews love them that they go to extremes in order to try to be loved ("Peace Now" and other such Jewish liberal organizations, etc) While I do assume most people hate the Jewish people, I also know that there is such a thing (while extremely rare) as a righteous gentile. Certainly anyone who lives by the 7 laws of Noah is considered to be righteous according to Jewish tradition. My definition is a little different. Who among the Jew haters will go out of their way to fight that impulse deep within their souls to hate the Jews (or in the modern sense, Israel?) Who among the Jew haters will fight that urge to the point where they can actually objectively look at the Jewish people and Jewish history and not hate us because we are still here and not envy us because we are alive and continue to strive despite all odds? Who can actually look at the situation in the Middle East and objectively understand (through slicing through all the layers of a seriously biased/leftist and ironically oftentimes "Jewish" media) that the Jewish people are not aggressors and only want to live in peace among their neighbors? How many can take an honest look to see that throughout history the Jews have proven so often to rush to the defense of everyone but themselves? Why is do so many carry this disdain for the Jew who defends himself and who triumphs---not buy blowing himself up or committing mass murder, but through merely living and surviving and trying to contribute to humanity in good and wholesome ways? Today, this attitude toward the Jews has manifested itself in hatred toward Israel. It is not my imagination. It is apparent. The world thought the "Jewish problem" would be solved after the Holocaust, but what happened? The Jews pop out of the ovens to re-inhabit their land and with their own defensive force to defend it. Nothing more has solidified my faith more than the fact that despite all attempts throughout history to rid this world of Jews, that we still exist. Sorry to disappoint you.  ;) I write this not to cause any problems but to expand upon my point of view and assumptions which you felt the need to simplify here for some reason. I guess you wanted to chat. --Einsteindonut (talk) 13:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't like or dislike any 'people'. I like or dislike individuals. Nations and ethnic groups are just fictions. I have my background, full of genocide, contempt, ethnic slurs and centuries long persecution. I don't wear it as a badge of distinction or something to defend. In this, I am like the Jewish intellectuals I most admire, and perhaps owe the insight that I am human before I am anything else, to their drawing the conclusion first and redeeming me with the eloquence and trenchency of their insights into tribalism and its stereotypes.Nishidani (talk) 13:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Can you expand more upon this "nations and ethnic groups are just fictions?" thought of yours? I believe that shows a dangerous disregard toward all history and identity. Perhaps you misunderstood my take of my history. I'm not saying my background of awful things is something to defend, but I have a moral obligation to prevent them from happening in the future. It's a shame it seems you have admittedly bought into certain Jewish individuals' overwhelming desire to run from their histories and from what they are. I urge you to not buy into that. It's just mishegas. Perhaps consider embracing who you are and your history. It's our differences which should be celebrated. We are not all the same. Denying the fact that there are nations and ethic groups is the true fiction here, and also a true concern. Ideology is typically a long way away from reality. Mind if I ask your background? --Einsteindonut (talk) 14:36, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

You don't many read serious books, do you? If you did, you would have understood my allusion and not confused what I said with a 'thought' of mine. See Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities rev.ed. 1992 Verso London, and Ernest Gellner's Nationalism, Basil Blackwell, 1983, who trace the concept back to Renan. My background is the books I read. 'Ethnically', I am Irish, most of my forebears hail from that people, who suffered from forced exodus and long-term genocidal policies long before that concept was thoroughly modernized by Ataturk and Hitler. Nishidani (talk) 14:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

"You don't many read serious books, do you?" No, but I have read me some Dr. Seuss. Spare me the insults please. I came here in peace not to attack you. Appreciate the insight into your background. Just curious. What about your religious background? Sorry I have not read Benedict Anderson's book. I'll check it out. You stated this idea as if it were your own, so I assumed that it was. I'm still confused by what you meant by it. What does it mean to you? Personally I'd treat any work that proposed that idea as fiction itself. --Einsteindonut (talk) 15:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

No insult intended. The notion's a commonplace, and I thought anyone reasonably well-read would recognize this. Thomas Cooper scandalised many when he called the notion of a nation 'a grammatical fiction' created to save us using periphrases to say what we mean. But that was 200 years ago. If the nation has roots in an ethnic identity, i.e. race, then it still remains true that, given the mongrelization of mankind through history, a Yemenite Jew will have, culturally more or common with a Saudi than a secular Ashkenazi from an upper-middle class German background would have with both (the history of Zionism is riven with this contradiction). Culture always trumps 'race', which appeals to the worst in us, our pathologically jejune instincts for the pseudo-securities of tribal life, one of the blights seeded into Western civilisation, rather uniquely, by the divine authority of the Bible. Like all nations, Israel was founded to invent an identity that collapsed differences. I dislike homogeneity in any form, esp. when I see it everywhere in the three or four usual opinions trotted out when any topic is broached.

As to religion, my background is the same as yours, since we were both raised on the Bible. When I was old enough, 8, to choose for myself what to read by preference, I quickly took to Greek myths: they fed my imagination, and required no theology, or literalist allegiance, and were properly understood as tools to think with, not fairy-tales to believe in.Nishidani (talk) 16:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps some people read different things than others. I'm not sure if I agree with your statements with regard to "race" appealing to the worst of us. I'm not sure if you are claiming that the Jews are a "race." Nor do I think "race" has much to do with "tribal life" or see how it is a blight on Western Civilization. I completely disagree with you with regard to the founding of Israel. Which "Israel" is it you speak? The people, Israel? The Biblical Land of Israel? Modern-day Israel? I believe Israel has tried to celebrate differences, not collapse them. It's one of the most culturally and religiously diverse places on Earth. Perhaps you have Israel confused with many of its neighbors. I share your dislike for homogeneity, however, I don't think I see it manifested in the same places in which you do.

I wasn't necessarily raised on the Bible. When you say your background is the same as mine are you saying you are a Jew? I was raised with the tools to think as well and actually raised on very little theology and/or "literalist allegiance." However, I always knew in my heart that I was a Jew and didn't fully comprehend what it meant until later in life. It's true, many Jews do tend to blend into their surrounding for various reasons. --Einsteindonut (talk) 16:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Everyone raised within Western civilisation is a 'Jew' whether (s)he likes it or not, since the formation of Jewish identity was foundational for one major stream of occidental identity, just as Greek paganism and philosophy makes us all sons of Greece. One definition of an antisemite is a person who dislikes himself, in that to be, he can only hate his deepest nature, and blame its existence on some identifiable other, in this case the Jew, whom he holds responsible for everything he secretly covets. In both senses (and there are more) we tend to act like prodigal sons. Many return to the narrow fold: I prefer the prodigal world of exile and diaspora, culturally and otherwise. All people, as children, blend into their surroundings. Growing up means, in any deeper sense, 'blending' out of them. The former is fortuitous and tribalizing, the latter an act of choice, in quest of one's proper difference from one's fellow man. I'm sounding terribly pompous, or thinking too much of John of Salisbury.Nishidani (talk) 17:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding said pompousness, you said it, not I. I'm not sure I agree with you regarding everyone being a 'Jew' if they were raised within Western Civilization. I know many people raised within it who are FAR from being Jewish and I'm sure you do too. It's ok if you don't want to just come right out and say it. I was just curious since you seem to know so much about Jewish and Israeli history, etc. I'm not sure about the narrow fold. However, I do know that when Israel left Mitzrayim, 4/5 were left behind. They were the 4/5 who preferred exile and diaspora (and therefore death.) Throughout the generations that same choice is made, whether in the physical or spiritual realm. 'Have you ever tried the 'narrow fold?' Or are you saying that you have 'blended' out of it? Some partake in that quest to comprehend their difference from one's fellow man at an early age, and make more spiritual choices later in life. Others are raised within the confines of a religiously vigorous life, only to eventually rebel in an effort to try to be and experience everything in which they are not or in which they never had the opportunity to be.--Einsteindonut (talk) 17:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

(2) Dershowitz is an 'expert' on the Arab-Israeli conflict whereas Chomsky, Finkelstein and Carter are just a bunch of foolish anti-semitesNishidani (talk) 08:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Nishdani. A couple of comments and questions. First, I am a newbie so I respectfully ask, is your talk page on WP the place to have an ongoing discussion like this? I am truly asking because if it is, I would like to join in. If not I sure would like to find another blog or discussion group that deals with philosophy, politicis, mathematics, philology, etc. Second, I notice that most of your comments and edits are pretty solid and I respect that but every once in a while your use of adjectives creeps in, specifically "Radical" Zionist and other terms like that. Now I now there are sources for these adjectives but they are one sided. I would have no problem if you balanced your comments or buttressed them. For example Jabotinsky the "Radical","militant", "visionary", "terrorist", "hero". Its NPOV to state all of these, but not one. He is definitely controversial and his actions were provocative. Of course he was living in a very sharp edged world at the time, where other parties actively worked to murder every Jew in the world they could find. Third, your comments and enui remind of James Joyce, another writer who reflects on the benefits of exile, and who rejected his Irish patrimony. Now when you discuss Jews, Judaism, and anti-semitism its clear that you are engaging these terms on a quite rarified intelectual and philosophical level but the fact is, the palestinian terrorists that murdered the old crippled Leon Klinghoffer in1985 did not make such fine distinctions. His name alone sufficed to serve as a hangman's noose, with no chance of clemency, much like it would today in many different countried in the Middle East that are Judenrein. I would like to make several suggestions. 1. Lets you, Einsteindounut and I work together on some neutral noncontroversial Wp article, there are at least 13,000 that we could labor on together, most of them having nothing to do with these hot topics. At worst, we could respectfully sharpen our editing and rhetorical skills, but stay clear of any suspicious bias. 2. If you are truly interested in learning history, philosophy, and religion on a deeper level I would be happy to help you, in the form of an exchange. 3. Why don't you practice taking on the political and philosophical positions of someone you disagree with? After studying Islam, Palestinian History and Arabic I spend four years being the Teacher Advisor for the Muslim Club at my high school where I worked. It really helped me clear out some of the bias that arose through a lack of knowledge and empirical experience. Cheers aharon42 (talk) 17:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I have no intention of using this page as a blog, which would be an abuse of wiki, even if some lenience is due on space use as informal payment for unpaid labour expended on the project. I am bound by rules of courtesy to reply to anyone who may ask me a question. I admire Jabotinsky for two things, his intellectual integrity, and his experiments in adapting Dante's terza rima to modern Hebrew. He is one of those rare men who tell the truth of what others just privately think, yet deny with those effusions of public hypocrisy most of the press now take as NPOV, especially when he wrote programmatically and prophetically that Zionism must trample over native Palestinian love of their homeland and wrest it from them, exercising such overwhelming resilience and intelligent outmanoevering against the Palestinians' wholly natural resistance, that they will be left crushed, without hope, and, from their sheer despair, agree to foreign domination by an immigrant Jewish majority.(b) Saying that any abstract analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is undone, as mere woolly cloud-gathering, if one doesn't mention Leon Klinghoffer, is about as intelligent as saying Efraim Karsh's or Bernard Wasserstein's books are useless because they don't mention hundreds of children who've been slaughtered like Iman Darweesh Al Hams. I must admit that when I read this remark, I dropped off reading the rest. There are some simple rules of logic even sophomores, if not the newspaper-reading public, should understand.

As to cleaning up bias, anyone can see the bias in someone else. It takes much more to clean up one's own. Like ideology, we think of bias, as relating to what other people think. That is not the problem at all.

How about we work on the Unamuno article together. I think I have several books of his as PDF files that I could send you and it looks like your Spanish is better than mine. Take a look and let me know. I would be open to any of your suggestions also. Que tenga suerte, plata, y amor. aharon42 (talk) 18:25, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

As said above, I've retired from editing wiki, except for an occasional role to advise, help, and provide some suggestions on a few talk pages. So as regards your proyecto sugestivo de trabajo en común, to adapt a phrase from Ortega y Gasset (España invertebrada(1922) Madrid 1981 p.41) I must decline. However, let me know when you do tackle that wiki article, which is rather impoverished, and I will of course look on with interest.Nishidani (talk) 21:15, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

NYScholar

• [2]

What is your mind about some "adoption" of this "gentleman" ? :-) Ceedjee (talk) 19:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I know this and I have somewhere a pdf explaining in detail his whole biography. I sent this to Benny Morris so that he confirms or not what was written and tells me if he agreed to see this published on wp.

He didn't answer. Just sending me his CV.

He was in high financial precarity in 95... My mind is that he has found some kind of compromise, which, at the end, was not that much harmful for him and his family.

I prefer not taking care of this. This is wp:blp

Ceedjee (talk) 06:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

canon is cannon

Thanks Nishidani I hadn't even noticed what my fingers were typing....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 11:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

No worries, pal. It's an affliction we all suffer from. When I don't know what my fingers are doing, my first and best instinct it to pull one of them out! It usually works.Nishidani (talk) 11:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you any access to the texts from the Franciscan site?.....Your site certainly gives more than Jean Richards but I have no access to the relevant books texts to verify it.....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 11:33, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

No I don't. My neighbours are Franciscan friars though, and when next at dinner with them, I'll ask them about this. They do have a computerized studio in the monastery, and good connections with Israel, and perhaps to a specialized library where I can look things like this up. Think in the long term, in any case. Finding stuff often takes months, if not years. I've noted the details on the Hébron French study in any case, and that will be a priority. Regards Nishidani (talk) 11:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

You mentioned Ian Lustik do you have the book/page for the quote used in the Hebron article:

The government was caught by surprise. Internally divided, depending for its survival on the votes of the National Religious Party, and reluctant to forcibly evacuate the settlers from a city whose Jewish population had been massacred thirty-nine years earlier, the Labor government backed away from its original prohibition against civilian settlement in the area and permitted this group to remain within a military compound. After more than a year and a half of agitation and a bloody Arab attack on the Hebron settlers, the government agreed to allow Levinger's group to establish a town on the outskirts of the city

Nice quote agrees with all I know about the politics of the time but the quote has no citation....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 07:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It seems that...

Great minds think alike. ;) I've missed you my friend. Hope all is well with you. I also hope you will give up your self-imposed exile from article editing, and get back into the swing of things as soon as you feel your creative juices flowing again. I've sorely missed your content contributions, though as always, deeply appreciate your reasoned talk page interventions. Cheers. Tiamut^talk 15:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Request

Hi there Nishidani. Since you have commented on a recent case, could you please have your say here? Thanks. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 05:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, FayssalF. I've read the thread twice, and only discovered how profoundly ignorant I am about what computers do and how they work through routers and IPs. My computer broke down finally some 10 days ago and I've bought, and work from, a completely new one, and, looking at this case, can only wonder if the change makes me out to be I(S)P-wise an editor with a different electronic profile than the one I had with the old computer!?

I don't think my opinion would be anything more than that, on the page, and therefore have withheld commenting. Since the evidence is extremely technical, on these things I tend to take administrators at their word, esp. when 3 of proven experience, caution and balance like yourself, Lar and Alison concur. The only thing that worries me is that Tiamut noted NoC had way back posted a protest against an antisemitic remark, so his presumed attack on Einsteindonut is queer. I tend to go overboard and call for permanent bans when racist or antisemitic remarks are dropped, so I instinctively backed your decision, even though I couldn't see much in Einsteindonut's evidence (as opposed to the larger environment you controlled). I also didn't comment because I think your overall interventions on this have shown in their cautious balance something that is often lacking in administrative judgements, a psychological acumen into the otherwise tacit politics that appear to be going on.

You guys have to do a tremendous amount of hard labour at the digital coalface because of bad user habits, and I can only hope that, as Carcaroth and some others suggest, one works out a method to make people who want to edit wiki use a single account. This blather because I feel a bit stupid and embarrassed that I can't reply adequately to your request on the relevant page: it requires a mastery of technical details I lack. Best wishes Nishidani (talk) 08:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

:) Thanks Nishidani. Fair enough. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 08:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)