Talk:Kars

(no section)

If you haven't noticed yet,--MarshallBagramyan 06:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC) there's a bit of a gap (about 800 years!) in the History section...mu5ti ☪ 08:00, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

...and thanks to KNewman it has shrunk! Спасибо! mu5ti ☪ 05:01, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

If there are no objections, I'd like to introduce a sketch of Kars circa 1917 that my grandfather drew when he was a child living there. --MarshallBagramyan 00:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure, as long as it's accurate! --Khoikhoi 01:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Cool.....

Ok I posted it so tell me what you guys think of it. Feel free to ask any questions about it. --MarshallBagramyan 02:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting. Thank you. I was wondering, what were the demographics of Kars before the genocide? I think someone should add a demogrpahics section - past and present - to this article. --Khoikhoi 03:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Well my grandfather, Onik, was born on April 14, 1913. I extracted that image from his memoirs where he speaks about the Russian led Armenian forces moving towards Erzerum. He saw the famous Armenian partisan fighter Serob Pasha on a horse along with his guards where his forces were rallying and perhaps most interesting of all, his wife chose to over stay at their house. They left for Russia in 1918 as the Armenian forces began to draw out.

If you look at the picture, on the top, you see a row of houses -- my grandfather's house was the third one from the right -- seperated by a bright orange section. That section, written in Armenian writes, Malakneree Tagh, meaning the "location of where the Malakner lived". Apparently they were of Russian descent, perhaps even Kurdish. On the left in the middle, you can see a large wheel spoke on the river which was a water wheel or a mill or something. Just below are a set of houses which, according to my grandfather, belonged to the more wealthy affluent residents of Armenia. I'll read more into it and find out more about the town's demographics. --MarshallBagramyan 06:00, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Wow, do you have any idea why his wife chose your great-grandparents' house? It would be interesting if we could find another map of Kars made at that time, to compare to the sketch.

I wonder there this picture is on the map. --Khoikhoi 06:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, she said that she wanted to remain at the house which had the most impoverished person in town. And that person happend to live with my grandfather's family and my grandfather was awed as how such a revered figure would choose to come and become a guest for them. His father was a trader, he would buy products from abroad and sell or exchange them there. He succumbed to pneumonia in Russia several years after they left Kars.

One incident in his memoirs that he describes is of a young Armenian man who decides to join Serob's forces. His mother begrudgingly insists that he stay at home as he sits on a horse. When his mother's wails do not cease, he gets angry and finally pushes her away. She falls dowan as an artillery cannon is being moved forward and its spoke wheel runs over the woman's foot and putting her in agonizing pain (thankfully not seriously injuring her).

I only began reading his memoirs just recently and when I saw that picture of that photo you mentioned, it was amazing as how acutely and accurately he drew the illustration is (he died 7 years ago, suffering the similar fate as his father; I wasn't interested about his life or Armenian history back then and its something I deeply regret not dwelling further upon before his passing).

On the right side of the illustration it writes in Armenian "Qarsee Berdt" which means Kars' Fortress and he has enumerated about ten or eleven locations on the picture (try saving it on your computer and zooming in to find them) in which he describes them. I'll try to find out what it writes exactly. --MarshallBagramyan 06:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

This article is a disgrace

This article is 99% about Kars history, %1 modern day city of Turkey. And of course we all know why. Illustration by the way, apperantly it was drawn by a kid, I don't know what kind of value it has posted on this article.--Kagan the Barbarian 12:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Um, it was drawn by a child -- my grandfather when he was only a few years old living in Russia and recanting from memory. That picture is an accurate illustration of what Kars looked like in 1917. I'm sorry if you're unable to distinguish the immense merit and significance it holds, the Turkish government does a fine job in erasing any traces of Armenian history doesn't it?--MarshallBagramyan 22:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah evil Turks. Nobody is erasing anything, Turkey's approach to historical artifacts, including their own heritage such as Seljukid, Ottoman, is a disgrace; only in the last few years there have been serious concerns of a need for a large scale renovation. Anyway, important thing is Kars is a still existing city in modern Turkey and this article contains zero information about it. Wikipedia is not the place to push your Armenian agenda. I am putting a POV tag unless current day informations meet the history section. As for the illustration, I don't know what kind of accuracy it has drawn by an unknown kid, I respect your grandfather's effort but it looks like Disneyland from a kid's perspective.--Kagan the Barbarian 06:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, I am removing the POV tag. But I still think there should be some info about current day city, the article looks like History of Kars.--Kagan the Barbarian 12:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Then by all means, add as much information about it of present day Kars. No one is stopping you.--MarshallBagramyan 21:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, considering your passion for the city, why don't you? Or after adding all the Armenian information, your job here is done?--Kagan the Barbarian 21:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't have information on Kars of present. You can visit the Turkish Ministry of Tourism and take its sources since I'm only working on Armenian-related and military issues. --MarshallBagramyan 23:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Bagramyan, I want you know that I have respect for the picture your grandfather drew, but that is my respect to your family heritage. I don't consider it an appropriate addition to a general article about Kars. Therefore I removed it, please understand.--Kagan the Barbarian 10:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

What is so inappropriate about it? That picture is a relic from an era that has lost nearly every historical artifact since the Genocide. Your reasons for removing it are wholly insufficent as I cannot understand nor see why in the world you would delete a historical picture. The illustration gives readers a chance to visually see how Kars looked in 1917. Other articles on historical cities include drawings of how they looked like centuries before; I honestly cannot understand your motives for removing it. I will add that image back, your reasons fail to convince me. --MarshallBagramyan 00:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Relic? Maybe for your family but not for the rest of the world. For the rest of the world, it is an old picture drawn by a kid. Here are my reasons for removing it:

1- It is too big. Too big for such a -excuse me but- crappy drawing. I like the hand writing though, Armenian alphabet is beatiful.

2- Its authenticity and accuracy are unknown. 3- Lastly and most importantly it was drawn by a kid, it holds no scientific value.

Try to be logical instead of acting emotional about it.--Kagan the Barbarian 07:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh my...I have shown this picture to other Turks and even they agree that it is authentic. What is so inaccurate about it? The fortress and the river all align to present day Kars and so do the diagrams of the churches.

1)The size can be adjusted to make it smaller, even then, the current size does not hamper the reader's efforts or the article's form. 2)Here's a map of present day Kars a Turkish friend of mine showed to me, as he was marveled as how accurate my grandfather's illustration was:[1]. Obviously the majority of the buildings have changed by now but geographical location and the position of landmark buildings, the Kars fortress, the houses on the side of the fortress, the river next to those houses, etc. are in the correct places when you compare it to the photographs we have on this article. 3)So just because it was drawn by my grandfather when he was a child, it loses its value and authenticity? I'm not certain when exactly in his youth he drew this but my grandfather was a pharmacist, not an artist. If there are any real discrepancies, point them out. Otherwise your claims are invalid.

Hardly any demagoguery involved in this on my part, I think you should reevaluate your claims and see where the logic falls. --MarshallBagramyan 07:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion about the child drawing

With all due respect, I really think this picture doesn't qualify for a professional and historical imagery (especially in an encyclopedia). I suggest it's deleted.

For example, I've lived in the Netherlands for some time. By Wikipedia standards, should Dutch people allow my own handdrawing of the city I lived in as a picture within the related article???

--Gokhan 13:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I found that drawing to be the most interesting thing in the whole Wikipedia entry for Kars! (But then I am speaking a someone who knows more about Kars than any other person who is likely to read the Kars entry.) It certainly qualifies as an example of historical imagery of Kars. The only quastion is whether such specialised historical imagery should be part of a general article about Kars. --Meowy 19:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Alternate names

They are acceptable usually if the people of this language had a lot to do with the city’s history, population, or both. See the Gdansk article for example – it has the German name, but the city has hardly any Germans living it, and hasn’t been part of Germany since WWII. There are many articles about Greek islands with the Turkish name – see Kos for example. --19:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Is there any policy on that? I have not seen the names of American states in Spanish, for example. Grandmaster 19:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, see LukasPietsch's comment here. --Khoikhoi 19:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Looks like we’ve got a lot do in Armenia and Azerbaijan geography. I had a look at American states, and did not notice a strict policy in naming. I’m not any good in Spanish, so I don’t know whether those names are spelled differently in Spanish, but California, Florida and Texas have only English spelling, while New Mexico has Spanish as well. I’m just curious how the decision on such issues is made, because we have a similar dispute on another page. Grandmaster 20:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, California, Florida, and Texas are all spelled the same in English as they are in Spanish. New Mexico, I believe, is the only state that has Spanish and English as it's offical language, so that's another reason the Spanish name is up there.

I can tell you on the Gdansk page there was a lot of debate over the German name being up there - and it looks like the final decision is how you see it today.

I'm not sure how these disputes are resolved however. For the Nakhichevan page I suggest you have a separate section called "Name", just like at the Nagorno-Karabakh page. If we list the alternate names in all those languages it would be too hard to read. --Khoikhoi 23:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

For Nakhichevan we need at least 5 names. If we are going to include them all, we should do the same for the Armenian cities and towns by adding Azeri, Turkish and Persian names, starting from Yerevan. I don’t know if the Armenian editors are happy with that or not. Looks like they only want to include Armenian names for Azeri territories and remove Turkish name of Nakhichevan without any valid reason. I’m going to add Azeri names for the cities in Armenia, I think it should be acceptable in accordance with Wiki rules. Grandmaster 04:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

GM, stop making a WP:POINT. Just because something is done in one article does not require you to go on a crusade to do it in other articles. --Golbez 04:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I think there should be a common principle to be applied to all similar cases, otherwise how can anyone justify a different approach to similar issues? Grandmaster 04:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Then ask the community, rather than making a point. --Golbez 04:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

So far I’ve done nothing to illustrate my point, I just stated that if we agree that inclusion of all applicable names is justified, then we should apply that principle in practice. Do you think it is worth starting an RFC, or we can reach an agreement on naming principles for our region on this talk page? Grandmaster 04:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

(Turkish: Kars, Armenian: Ղարս or Կարս, Kurdish: Qers, Greek: Καρς, Russian: Карс, Azeri: Qars). It is getting silly! All of them, except the hard "G" Armenian version, are pronounced exactly the same. They are not alternative names used by different languages or races - they are exactly the same name written in different alphabets! Meowy 23:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Kars history

For a settlement that is at least 2000 years old the Kars entry so far is a bit basic and with many ommissions! I will try to add more material over the coming few days, but meanwhile, I have added some links to several pages on VirtualAni.org that address some of those gaps.

PS: for some reason Khoikhoi has objected to me adding these links, saying that they are "commercial links"??? I have just joined here, and so may be a bit hazy on procedures, but I see nothing objectionable in those links.

Like I said, you should be adding content to the article instead of links to your website. It is considered spamming. —Khoikhoi 21:12, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Khoikhoi, why are you erasing links that have been on the page for months?

VirtualANI - A history and description of the city of Kars was there before I added anything.

And what is it you find so objectionable in these?

The medieval Armenian cathedral in Kars known as the Holy Apostles church An album of old postcards and photographs of Kars The architecture of the traditional houses of Kars Buildings in Kars that date from the Russian period of rule

Very well I will reinsert the link you erased (I will assume you erased it by mistake). And wait for some support here before I re-insert the other erased links.

I don't object to the links, it but you are encouraged to add to the actual article, not add multiple external links to the same website. —Khoikhoi 21:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, I understand your point. However it will not be possible to add all the content of those webpages to the actual article, which is why I felt that the links were valid. How can another section be added to the contents, such as one for "Church of the Apostles"? --Meowy 21:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, here's how - just add one more equal sign on to the section, so it looks like this:

== History ==

=== Church of the Apostles===

You could also create a History of Kars article. :) Cheers, —Khoikhoi 02:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Kars is a Turkish city

Throughout history, Kars has been home to many civilisations and nations, from Scythians to Armenians, from Kipchaks to Romans. The region was included in Transcaucasia, and later on it was inhabited by Hayasa. The city of Ani nearby the region was the capitol of an Armenian kingdom in 10th century, until it was captured by Seljuk Turks in 1064. Georgians captured the city for a while, and then the Ilkhanids captured it. Finally after the short term invasion of Timur, the city was captured by the Ottoman Empire in 1534.

The city had a long term Turkish rule, until it was captured by the Russian Empire in 1877. After a period of a Southern Caucasian Republic, the city was recaptured by Turks under leadership of Kazim Karabekir Pasha. It is a modern province of Republic of Turkey.

So as it's understood by its population's composition in history, the region was occupied by Armenians until 11th century, and then by local Armenians and Turks together, until the Russian invasion when the Turkish population had to immigrate to west. Later on, the Armenians of the city were deported during WWI.

But some misinformed writers or nationalist spammers enjoy editing the true information about the city. The city have never been a Kurdish city throughout its history, if it was, I am ready to see your sources and the official records about any Kurdish existance in the city except the Islamic encyclopedia's non sense map. I am also ready to show any official documents the spammer needs to see to understand his wrong knowledge.

Thank you...

Armenians were never deported out of Kars. It remained strictly under Russian military control. My grandfather remained there until 1917 when Russian forces finally retreated and the Armenian population alongside with them.--MarshallBagramyan 06:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

"Karapapakhs"

Grandmaster, is this refering to the Karapapak? (not to be confused with the Karakalpaks of Central Asia). I noticed "Karapapakhs" and "Karapapak" sounded similar. —Khoikhoi 01:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think that the Karapapakhs are a distinct group of Azeris. -- Clevelander 01:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Wait, you just linked to the same article...am I missing something here? —Khoikhoi 02:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. —Khoikhoi 02:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Revision

Hey Cleve, I was not trying to revise anything, if you noticed, my fact tags were also about stuff not concerning Armenia and Turkey proper: like Soviets wanting to attack Turkey after WWII etc. Don't get me wrong, it could be true, but to be honest it is the first time I heard that. That's all.. Baristarim 21:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm just a bit stressed out. I will add references later. -- Clevelander 22:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not believe that the following is true: Since independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, Armenia has refused to recognize the Kars treaty as legitimate. From the Armenian perspective, the borders as defined by the treaty are far from fair as they did not take into account the national interests of the Armenian people. Many still consider the Kars treaty as the basis for the resolution of Armenian-Turkish animosity. Unless someone can cite an example of someone at governmental level in Armenia saying it, I think it should be removed.Meowy 00:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I've read about this before, but I've never seen a credible source that states that this is the RA's position. I'll delete it for now. -- Clevelander 00:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

From Noyan Tapan / Armenians Today / Dec 13 2006

In an interview for the the Turkish newspaper Cumhurriet, and in response to the question, "does Armenia recognize the Treaty of Kars?" RA Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian said: "Armenia has never made a problem of validity of the Treaty of Kars, as Armenia remains loyal to all agreements inherited from the Soviet Union."Meowy 17:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

ethnic figures

Good to see these ethnic population figures. It illustrates how no one nationality may reasonably claim Kars as theirs. I missed two things in these figures: 1) where are the Jews, and 2) religions. From the ethnic percentages you may calculate 58% Islam and 41% Christian, but how about Alevites, Yezidis, atheists/communists, Jews (again) and unchurchliness? Could not read the Russian source, but had the impression it gave some more figures? [I am wrtiting a short history of Turkey in Dutch] Marco www.ecocam.com

Actually, it merely indicates that with each exchange of the "ownership" of Kars between Turkey, Russia, and Persia there was a diminution of the ethnic population of those seen by the winning Power to have supported the previous owners. The process speeded up as the 19th century progressed, and it culminated in 1921, when its new Turkish "owners" removed the entire Christian populaton of Kars. Why do you think there would be any Jews? You might as well ask "where are the Hawaiians?". Meowy 19:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Everyone definetly went overboard with the naming and Karapak tag contradicted the main article.Hetoum I 03:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Personal Artifacts

I was a little shocked to see a child's drawing on these pages. How is that allowed? With all due respect, it deos not belong to a general purpose article in a public space. How about a real map of the city, a real nice picture of the famed Kars Fort, and other real and useful information first?--Murat (talk) 03:09, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what's so shocking. A hand drawn picture from almost a century ago is quite interesting actually. The caption of the image doesn't claim to be anything that the image is not. You can add other images without removing this one. -- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 02:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

As a newbie here I have already seen many bizzare stuff, but this is on top. Hard to believe this is even being discussed. Personal memorablia does not belong on these pages. How about the picture I drew when I was 5? My folks thought it was good. Can we get real?--Murat (talk) 03:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

You're repeating yourself again but you're not saying why it's bizzare or shocking. I told you why it's interesting and notable. It's drawn by someone from a community in Kars that doesn't exist anymore almost a hundred years ago.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 14:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you suggesting this child's drawing has some historical and artistic importance and significance? There is absolutely nothing notable about it. There is not even a real map of Kars here, not even a decent picture of the "Kale". Here is a compromise: Place the drawing in the talk pages where granpa can be immortalized.--Murat (talk) 03:42, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is a compromise - Murat quits his trawling through Wikipedia entries related to Turkey to remove any content connected to Armenians. Meowy 19:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

But what does that make you? Do not worry, the wall of self-deception and fabrication is very thick, there is a whole industry behind it and an army of trolls behind it.--Murat (talk) 02:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Names in other languages

Eupator

• Russian is relevant due to the city's being an important military venue during Russo-Turkish Wars. And let's not forget that it has not even been 100 years since Kars ceased to be part of Russia.
• Azeri is relevant due to the large historical presence of Azeris in Kars, even to this day. I don't see how this is irrelevant while the Kurdish spelling is relevant. Parishan (talk) 18:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Both languages have absolutely no value. With your rationale, every single city in the old world can have several lnaguages added in the lead. Karos was not the only city that was a venue of the war, hundreds of other cities were as well? Are you going to add a Russian name to all those articles as well? Or all the other cities that were briefly part of the Russian Empire? The Azeri community was not large or of any historical significance, are there even any non-migrant Azeris there today? For all intents and purposes it's a Kurdish city today inhabited mostly by Kurds within Turkey.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 18:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The period of Russian domination influenced the city politically and culturally (see Russian architecture in present-day Kars: [2] [3]), it was fairly recent, it was marked by heavy colonisation by the Russian settlers, and there are even several families of the Molokans who remain in Kars nowadays ([4], [5], [6]). As for Azeri, I think we've been over this, the Azeri community there largely consists of Turkish-born individuals tracing their roots to the Safavid or Russian Imperial period, and not of recent migrants, hence me referring to it as historical. Their history is very well covered in this source. I am not sure how well you know Turkish, but in case you do, here are some Turkish sources as well: [7], [8], [9]. Parishan (talk) 18:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

That's true, but once again irrelevant. Russian influence is a billion times more apparent and strong on Baku for example, particularly when it comes to architecture. Why isn't there a Russian name? The English source doesn't really do much, Kars is mentioned once in the context that it was briefly under Safavid rule. So what? I'm afraid I can only count in Turkish.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 19:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Baku's being part of a Russian-speaking realm is more obvious than that of Kars. Just like there is no German name in the introduction for Ljubljana, but there is one in Maribor, despite both of them being located in Slovenia and both of them at some point being part of the Austrian Empire.

When you are checking sources for relevance, you don't just press Ctrl+F and see how many times you come across your query. You read the excerpt and assess the relevance in the context:

"The history of the Azeri population in today's Turkey can be traced back to the earlier periods of the Safavid era in Iran (1501-1722), when their rule extended over the current Turkish regions of Kars and neighboring areas." Parishan (talk) 20:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

This is the English-language Wikipedia, so there is no place for the name "Kars" in any other language except were they have a direct and recent historical connection to the place and having the alternative name has some use within the article. And of course they are actually not "languages", it is all just "Kars" spelt using different alphabets. It is useful to have the Russian and Armenian versions just for their visual identification value, and also because of the historical Russian and Armenian connections to Kars. There is no useful purpose or validity in having it in the Kurdish (whatever that is), Greek, or Azeri alphabets and they should go. Meowy 22:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

So if I were to use the existing Arabic-based alphabets for both Kurdish and Azeri, the names would, in your opinion, have the "visual identification value"? And how apt is it for someone who has no knowledge of what Kurdish is to participate in such a discussion? Parishan (talk) 00:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I've spent years in Kars, so I know how the name is pronounced, and how it has been pronounced, (and whether it is a "Kurdish city" or not (it most certainly is not)). The pronounciation is a definite reason for retaining the Armenian alphabet spelling - historically it was pronounced like "Ghars", and still is amongst the older members of the town's population. Meowy 01:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)